#83 Recruiting Gen Z Lawyers in a Broken System

A month or two into law school, they're applying to law firms and law firms are looking at them saying, why this law firm? Why this office? What do you want to be when you grow up? What practice area do you want to be? Partner. The system is more broken than it's ever been.

Hello everyone and welcome to Pearls on Gloves Off. I'm your host, Mary o', Carroll, Chief Operating Officer at Goodwin. Today we are diving into a topic that sits right at the intersection of everything this show cares about. How the future of legal careers is shifted under our feet and what that means for the next generation entering this profession. We talk a lot on this podcast about disruption. Pace of change in legal, the transformation of legal departments, the rise of AI technology, new expectations. But nowhere is that disruption being felt more intensely than by the youngest people in our ecosystem. Law students, future associates, and the juniors who are trying to make sense of a career path that no longer looks anything like the one many of us grew up with. They are entering the most uncertain legal talent market we've ever seen. They want different things from their careers than previous generations, and yet we continue to throw them into a recruiting process that makes absolutely no sense for anyone. We law firms are essentially hiring people at the beginning of their first year of a three year law school program before they've taken a single exam, before they know what kind of lawyer they want to be, and long before we know what we'll actually need in terms of headcount skills or practice groups. Three years from now. Three years is an eternity in this space today, so we're going to pull back the curtain on this entire system with two people who live closest to it. My guests today are Jennifer Soltau, senior manager of legal recruiting here at Goodwin, who leads entry level, lateral and law school based hiring across all of our west coast offices, and Genevieve Riccardelli, who leads entry level hiring, law School engagement, and the summer program for our New York office. Together, Jennifer and Genevieve have just launched a brand new podcast called Lock in and Go Big Law. It's a behind the scenes, unfiltered guide for law students and aspiring students about what firms actually look for, how recruiting really works, and how candidates can navigate a process that often feels opaque, mysterious and probably a little crazy. I really wanted them on this show because they are living at the front lines of this transition. They're talking every day to the students whose futures are being reshaped by all this disruption, and to the junior lawyers who have to make career defining decisions before they really even know what the job is in today's episode. We get into all of that, and it's exactly the kind of conversation we need to be having if we're going to build a legal industry that actually makes sense for the future. So with that, let's get right into it. Here are Jennifer and Genevieve. Hi, Genevieve and Jennifer. So excited to have you guys here today.

We're super excited to be here with you. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, good.

So you are two members of the legal recruiting team here at Goodwin, and you guys have actually started your own podcast recently. So what is that about and why did you guys decide to go into this crazy world?

For us, what we were noticing is that the timeline of recruiting has consistently changed, and especially right now, it's significantly shifted. And we really wanted to provide that inside scoop to the students on what firms were actually looking for. I'm a first generation professional who also went to law school and felt like I didn't have all the tools that I needed to really navigate the process. And so for me, this was a little bit more of a passion project. And Genevieve, what was like for you?

Yeah, no, I totally agree. I. I don't have anyone in my family that's in Big Law, like, just fell into Big Law. Jennifer and I were both like, if we're confused about what's going on, I'm sure every other law school student is confused. So we were like, you know what, it would be great a podcast just to kind of break it down for everyone in really palatable way. Our episodes are only like 20 minutes.

Binge them, easy to, you know, work out, to ride, you know, take a quick walk, to take a quick study break. Yeah.

And it's called Lock in and Go Big Law.

Yes.

Right, okay. Yeah, yeah. And I love it because I know you guys are taking the same sort of gloves off approach that we do here in this podcast. Meaning, like, hot takes, good topics, going to tell you the truth, going to come at it. Right.

We're going to give it to you straight because I think a lot of why we decided to start this is, you know, every firm comes out and says kind of a similar thing. We have a great culture, we're very collegial, but there really isn't the inside scoop of, like, what does that actually mean? What are the firms actually looking for? And I know that each law student has access to their career service teams, but even then, career services are consistently coming to firms and asking, what are you looking for? So who better than us to give it to you straight and be that resource for you.

Awesome. Well, I know I wanted to get you guys selfishly on the podcast because it gives me the opportunity ask a lot of questions that I think you guys are really close to. And I believe that law schools recruiting the early stages of a junior attorney's career is another fascinatingly broken area of the legal ecosystem. And, you know, I'm always trying to point out all the things that are broken and legal, but it is also being dramatically disrupted right now, and we all need to be really aware of what's happening so that regardless of where we sit in the ecosystem, we know how to adapt to that and to be future ready. So I know I've shared this with you, but I'll share this with the listeners. I wanted to start with a story that I sort of can't get over. So I have a friend who is a partner at an AMLO 50 firm, and he's been running their summer associate program for years and years, maybe even a decade plus.

Yeah.

Every year, you know, at the start of the program, he brings all the students together in a room and gets them all excited about the future. How many of you want to be a future partner at this firm? And sure enough, you know, all the hands go up. Every single hand goes up, because, you know, why else would you be there, right? And over very recent years, those numbers of hands going up started to become less and less. And this year, I saw him at during the summer, and he said, it's crazy. He said, I literally asked, who wants to be a partner at this firm one day? And not a single hand goes up, not one at an AMLO 50 summer program.

And.

And not even, like, pretend to be polite.

Yeah, they're not even pretending like, maybe.

I want to do it one day. It was a straight up, I don't want that. That's pretty shocking. So, you know, from where you guys are sitting, you're talking to students every day.

Does that track 100%?

Yeah.

Back in the day, the amount of homegrown partners, I mean, was, you know, I'm sure you could walk down the hall and be like. And so I think the younger generation, that's just like, not what they've grown up with. You move around, you move to different firms, you get to see different things. So even if they want to become partner, the idea of becoming partner at the same firm that they summered at is so just, like, foreign and not something that they would ever, I think, aspire to, just because that's not even in their brain.

And I think you know, to your point, Mary, generationally, we've seen a shift in just authenticity and transparency as well. And especially from Gen Z, they're real. They're going to give it to you real. They're going to keep it real with you. They're not even going to fake it till they make it. They're not going to pretend. They're going to be incredibly inauthentic in how they show up. And it's interesting. So, like, from where we sit, we're like, like, I can't believe that they wouldn't even pretend. But that's not who they are. And that's honestly what they're expecting from firms as well, is that transparency and that authenticity as well. I think, to Genevieve's point, it's not about playing the long game anymore. They really can't sit be like, all right, I put my head down, I grind here for 10 years, and like, that's the end game. Their careers are a little bit more fluid in that they're thinking about other things, right? They're thinking about, maybe I go to a firm and get the training and maybe that'll work out, and maybe I stay to make partner. But that's not necessarily a goal of mine. A lot of what I think we're seeing a big trend in, and especially from where we sit at firms like Goodwin, our folks are really interested in going in house, right? And so the end game is like, I'm going to come to this firm, I'm going to get the top tier training, I'm going to get access to these amazing clients, and then maybe I will drift into one of those clients and be, you know, in house counsel for them. I have a, an equal story for you, Mary. When I first started in legal recruiting, I remember it was like we had a firm reception, right? We were on campus at one of our top tier law schools. We were super excited to be there. We had this little reception. The hors d' oeuvres are going, the drinks are going. A student walks up to me. She introduces herself. Hi. Like, I just have one question for you. How long do I have to be working at your firm before it's acceptable for me to go in house? That was so taboo. That was like, I couldn't believe she said that. We tracked it in her file because we were just like, how dare she. Right? Because of course, you should come to a firm, commit to it. Your goal should be partner. And that was again a while ago. I've been in this for about a decade, but now I Mean, we come into the recruiting and our hiring partners and our hiring teams come into the recruiting knowing that's a significant goal. And that's actually something that like, of course we want them to stay forever and be great and want to grow, but we know that, you know, that's our platform and that's okay. And we do want to recruit the best talent. And maybe you come and that was your goal, but you stay right and you make partner and that's our goal too.

It's so interesting. I had a another story that it was a similar conversation. So I was speaking at Harvard Law School to a bunch of students in a class a couple weeks ago and but as we were kind of warming up before the class was getting into it, the question was sort of asked to the room. You guys are all going to go to a law firm. You've picked your firm. What was like the single thing that made you choose the firm that you went with? And almost a hundred percent of that room said exit opportunities, which is not what I was expecting. It goes exactly to your point, Jennifer, that you know, they're going to tell you what it is, why they went there. The goal is ultimately to have it be a jumping off point. And I spent, you know, most of my career in house on the client side at Google and all of our amazing lawyers, they referred to themselves as law firm refugees. You know, people who like escaped the grind of this, you know, six minute increment time tracking and had like a much better life that they, it was like this nirvana state that they could get to 100%.

Yeah, yeah. And I think to your point about the billable hour, I think Gen Z is, and you know, this new crop of lawyers who are coming up are thinking about that. They're thinking about they do want to work hard, they do want top tier worth. That being said, they're thinking about work life balance and you know, they're kind of on the forefront of mental health and all of those things and wanting to find that balance and the billable hour and clocking your life in six minute increments doesn't necessarily jive with that agenda always. Right. And I know that's something that's been really top of mind for you, Mary. Right. In terms of like where is it going with the billable hour, rethinking that and being disruptive in the industry. But I do think if that's something that firms lean into, that could be a game changer in recruiting this next level of talent.

I also agree, Jennifer, that's Actually something I was gonna say to Gen Z, Gen A, they're definitely looking for meaningful work. And so I think it's gonna be interesting when like what Jennifer said, when you have, you know, the billable hour being questioned probably more than it ever has been. You also obviously have AI really breaking into the space and changing things. Firms are leaning into AI, leaning into rethinking the billable hour. I really do think it's going to change what, what that looks like for Gen Z and Gen A.

Another story of mine recently that really knocked my socks off. I was recently on LinkedIn and you know, we meet a bunch of students throughout the cycle. Sometimes they join the firm, sometimes they don't. But we stay connected on LinkedIn. And one of those students recently announced that she summered at a company over the summer and after graduation she actually got an in house counsel role directly. So she's gonna graduate, sit for the bar and go directly there. That's unorthodox. That's really new and disruptive and unheard of. And that's a different trend that I think, you know, firms should kind of keep our finger on the pulse of. And you know, our in house listeners might, you know, take a page out of that book. What do you think about that, Mary?

Yeah, we in the industry have been talking about this for, you know, at least over a decade. Like when clock started, there were a few companies that were starting to hire, you know, right out of school into their legal departments. And that was very unusual. I mean it's a very small percent. I think the reason from the client perspective that you want to hire out of law firms is because you don't have the resources, the time, the energy, the budget to like train these folks up. You know. Another topic that we can touch on is that you don't really learn anything in law school. I'm not a lawyer, but what I've heard is you don't learn anything in law school that's actually applicable to the job. So you can't like hit the ground running right out of law school. You need someone to, you know, train you and show you the road. Which is why, you know, we love that law firms can do that well and then they're sort of ready to go in house after a few years. That's what we would do as a client. We would look at, you know, that sweet spot of a few years out of school and hire from the law firms. There's a lot more options too these days. I mean, like you mentioned, there's AI there's different tech companies, so people coming out of law school can go to law companies can have do flexible talent because they want the flexibility. They can go to firms, they can go in house. There's a lot more competition in some ways for us to hire those, what is it, Gen Alpha folks. So, you know, I think one thing we all need to think about is how do we make ourselves that attractive, you know, organization for them to want to join?

100%. Yeah. And I think that's something that's been really top of mind, especially here at Goodwin. And, you know, for us during the summer program, really providing that next level of training and support, you know, to both points on AI, we make sure that we get, you know, AI coaching and mentorship and things like that, and really making sure that the students who walk through our door feel like they have all the resources and tools and. And exciting work that they need to feel fulfilled and to move it forward because we really do need to be able to set ourselves apart in some ways.

Yeah. I also think, like, to Mary's point, I don't think law school is there yet in terms of AI and, you know, getting them trained up on that. So, I mean, Goodwin's definitely at the forefront of making sure our summer associates are trained. I mean, our associates are trained, but also our summer associates, you know, starting when they're right in the door.

Yeah. And I also think, you know, we as a firm or a recruiter, should embrace where everyone is. So if everyone kind of sees the law firm, at least from the junior role, as a stepping stone, whether it is to go to another firm, whether it is to go in house. But it sounds like kind of the. The dream for most people would be to be a general counselor, go in house. So I think that has kind of been our philosophy here, is like, make this the best place to get trained up experience, build relationship, build the skillset you need in order to be an awesome experience in house counsel and have all the groundwork laid for you to eventually be an amazing general counsel. So when you come out of Goodwin, you know, again, this is the place that has the best exit opportunities if you want to go in house. And I think we've created some pretty interesting programs around that 100%.

We have, you know, a really robust alumni relations program that really keeps in touch with alumni. Because I think sometimes folks forget that this truly is an ecosystem. Right. Where you go, you become a D.C. maybe it's not a client yet, but you become a client within that process or you really are tapping into our really robust internal network of incredible clients that you can utilize. And the firm does help you move forward with those opportunities as much as possible through that process. We have a career coaching team as well that is really. It's confidential, but has all those resources, accessibility to all of those platforms as well. And so I think some of the firms that really do lean into building that out will be the folks who stand apart or the students who are interested in those opportunities.

Yeah, and still such a win for us if, you know, go in house and you're at one of our clients. I mean, such a win.

Whenever I have managed teams, I always tell the people on my teams, like, let's just be really open with each other about where you want to go in your career. You can tell me your dream is to go somewhere else and play that role or whatever role you're looking for. And that's the only way that I can help you get there. You know, I can make introductions, I can make sure you're getting the right experience and projects to work on, because if I don't know, I can't help you. And I think that we as law firms need to get better about that transparency and also saying, like, it's okay, it's not taboo to tell us that, you know, you eventually want to be a general counsel somewhere or you would love to work for that client in house one day and we can help you and it can be a win, win situation. Just again, like, there shouldn't be this, you have to stay with us forever. That's not the reality. I mean, lateral partners, lateral associates is a common thing as well as moving in house.

Definitely very common. A resource that we have at Goodwin that honestly, it actually really resonates with a lot of Gen Z. They're actually really surprised. We have. This is attorney development managers who do handle, you know, assigning out work, but they also are a resource to be like, hey, you know, eventually I want to go in house a couple of years down the line, like, you know, I just want to keep that in mind or having those conversations with them. And as Jennifer said, I mean, we have a career coach as well. And that's something that even at this stage when, you know, we're fielding questions about the summer program, that people are still, they're like, oh, wow, you have that as a resource. Like, that's really interesting because a lot of other firms don't.

And the second program that we do early on for juniors, which I can take no responsibility for that, that was here When I got here, and I thought, this is incredible, because to get junior associates out into the wild with clients, and they can see, because I know I've been on both sides, like, the client's side of work is very different, and their priorities and their needs and the speed at which they work is very different from a firm. And so to be able to come in early in your career and understand, empathize, like, put yourself in the shoes of clients and know what to anticipate or how to make your work more valuable to them, that's so, so good.

It's so important. And for us, what was really interesting is that we piloted it with the junior associates. And I know that the junior associates were at first a little bit nervous, right, because they were coming out of law school and stepping into, you know, the client side of the house. But now, as they're coming back to Goodwin after that secondment, they are one of, if not the most valuable resource on those client teams on the Goodwin side of the house, because they know exactly how the sausage is made. Right. They know how to do everything, what the preferences are of the client. They have that relationship that's so instilled. It's just such a tremendous opportunity.

It's funny, I was talking to one of our laterals who I think he's a fifth year or a sixth year, and he didn't go on second, but I was talking about our second program, and he was like, that is so cool. Like, that's such a good opportunity. He's like, I'm jealous. I wish I had that opportunity when I was, like, as junior as they are. Like, I hope they know, like, how great of an opportunity that was.

Totally. I wish I could do that.

Yeah.

Okay. The other thing that you guys had mentioned to me before is that the profile of the people going through law school is also slightly different. And what are you seeing there?

It's definitely a growing population where you're seeing people who are not KJDs anymore or people who have not gone straight through. I think there's definitely, you know, it's definitely becoming more popular to start out in a career. I mean, we see people who are at, like, biotech companies, and then, you know, they're really interested in that and they go to law school and they're. I was actually just talking to a student about this, which is why I was on mind. She was at a biotech company for a couple years. Then she was like, I really want to come, and I want to do life sciences at Goodwin. And you Guys are really known for life sciences. Like, this is something that's, you know, of interest to me. So I feel like that's definitely a growing population. Jennifer, I don't know, you know, if it's any different in California, but.

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I think the folks who have that work experience are starting to become a majority of the bull of what we're seeing out here in California as well. I think especially now as the recruiting timeline has so dramatically shifted and how early it is, those folks have been almost set up for success a little bit more in this process because they already came into law school with that previous experience and can say, oh, I know I went to law school because I wanted to do X. So then now they're able to, like, quickly move into that in this recruiting process and be able to articulate that to firms. But that really is the growing population. It's not to say that the K through JD isn't there. It's. I just think right now, even law schools, when we talk to career services and their admissions process, they really are starting to lean more towards hiring folks who have more of that past work experience.

Yeah. Okay, so we've got a new generation of candidates. They have different motivations, totally different expectations about their career paths. And what we're doing is dropping them into a recruiting system that was built for a completely different era. So, you know, for all of our listeners, a lot of them have been out of school for a long time and don't know kind of what's going on. But from my perspective, trying to run things at this law firm, I show up and I go, okay, so can we do things differently? Because, my God, the world is changing so fast. The demands, the needs of a law firm, the way we're shaped, the way our business model works, the My. The way we staff things, the way we deliver legal services is going to look completely different in the next few years. And that timeline is, like, getting shorter, and things are changing, you know, almost daily now. So with that in mind, how are we still recruiting people three years before they show up to work and before they've had a day of work in their life or even like a set of grades sometimes? I mean, this is crazy to me. And everyone will tell you, oh, that's because it's. That's how everyone does it, and that's how it works around here. So let's get into it. Tell me how it works, and let's talk about how crazy it is.

The system is more broken than it's ever been.

Unfortunately, it makes no sense. I think the best year was. And Jennifer, I don't remember exactly what year was. I don't know if it was 2021. Whenever OCI was pushed back to January of their 2L year on campus interviewing pre Covid, it was the August before for the students 2L year, they would, you know, interview with all the firms. And there were something called NALP rules. And so there was no pre recruiting happening. Everyone was kind of on the same timeline. Everyone went to oci, they hired all their students through oci. And everyone knows it was like, you know, that crazy month that, you know, you hired your whole summer class, but that's just kind of, you know, how it went.

Very structured.

Structured, yeah. Nobody played outside the lines. We all went on campus. We all worked directly with the school schools. We all behaved. That's how it works.

They all do things exactly the same.

Exactly.

The thought of doing anything outside of that was like, crazy. And then Covid hit, and I don't know, Jennifer, maybe you know who it was. I don't know who raised this flag that was like, this is going against all these antitrust laws and you can't control an industry. And people were like, yeah, you're right. You can't do that. So the NALP rules were now out the window. And I think once that happened, everyone was like, okay. At first, everyone was like, okay, but we'll just still go to oci. And then there was a firm who came forward and they were like, actually, we're not going to oci. We're going to do a direct application.

And that was like, wait, what student could directly apply? Just like every other job, right?

Just like every other job, go on our website, directly apply to us. And so they set up their own program, right, where they did direct applications, and then internally, they made their own mini OCI process. But it was just for them. They hired a large class. So all the other firms were like, okay, that firm hires a super large class. If we don't fall in line and start a direct application process, we're going to lose out on a big chunk of talent from, you know, these top law schools. So then one by one, we all fell like dominoes. And so, you know, OCI was in August, then it was in July, then it was in May. This year it is in January and February. A good chunk of law firms have decided to opt out of OCI to do this direct application process. And so what that looked like was both the 2L applications and the 1L applications were opened in October and November, meaning October, November of students, first semester of their first year of law school.

So like, a month or two.

A month or two into law school, they're applying to law firms. And law firms are looking at them saying, okay, why this law firm? Why this office? What do you want to be when you grow up? What practice area do you want to be? Partner?

They don't know.

They don't know, but we're expecting them to know. And that's why I said the system is so incredibly broken. Because on top of that, we're also asking law students, keep your grades up. But they're now balancing studying, taking exams, applying, interviewing, learning about the firms, and researching firms. It's just a lot for them to navigate right now.

It's so interesting because this is yet another area where the old process was very rigid. And when someone broke out of it, everyone looked at that firm and said, you're crazy for doing it this way. When literally the old way is you're the only industry that does this. Every job, any other job recruits the new way. Yeah, Right. But the new guy is crazy. Even though that's how the rest of the world operates. Like, there's so much of that in legal. But then once they were successful, like, overnight, everyone follows suit. Right?

It's like, okay, yeah, that works. That was great. Yeah.

See that? With associate bonuses, we see that every single thing that happens in law firms, it's like one firm has the courage to go first, and then as soon as they do and are successful, everyone's like, oh, we gotta do that really quickly. Yep. Yeah.

Yep. But I think that there's, like, a range on the disruption meter a little bit. And so for me, yes, I liked this direct application process generally, but I think right now it may have gone too much to the extreme where they're literally a month into law school, and we're really not giving them a lot of time to really navigate this process effectively. And so I think this disruption will lead to students. Not all of them, but maybe a handful or a chunk of them who choose firms. Get there on the first day of the summer program and say, like, oh, goodness, you know, what have I done? Is this the right choice? Like, I'm not sure. And so I don't know, Genevieve, if you feel this way, I think we will see an influx of 3L recruiting. Meaning once they're in 3L, right before they sit for the bar, they would start applying to firms. Seeing if there were other opportunities post graduation. Could be wrong. Yeah. But that's why.

No, I totally agree. I think oci, it had positives and negatives. I think the timing was pretty on par with where if. I think if the direct application stayed at the time that OCI was, it probably would have been fine. I think to Jennifer's point, it's now it's moving up so quickly. And like, they're in school for like a month. I mean, Jennifer was heard about someone who got an offer before they even started law school. Like, that's insane. They haven't even stepped foot in law school yet. And after their 1L year, why even.

Why even go to school?

Just wait.

Like, why even go to school?

Just take like the baby bar, figure it out. Yeah, like, right.

And so. Yeah, I agree. I think that, yeah, students are going to make decisions quickly because they have to. And that's what the market looks like, like now and then. Yeah, they're going to summer and they're gonna be like, wait, I don't know that I want to do this practice area or I don't know that I want to be at this firm. Or I think then they're going to start looking for opportunities their 3L year. We'll see.

Yeah. And it's your point. It moved earlier and earlier in the cycle because we aren't in the business of talent. That's what professional services are. That's what we deliver. And there's a talent war out there. And so the I think the argument is, or was if we want to get the best people, we want to lock them in and go big law and lock them in early. Lock them in early, like you said. Kind of joking, like, let's get them out of preschool, but as early as we can to create that loyalty and hoping that three years from now, those students will grow into the, you know, amazing professionals that we think that they will be. And then they'll already be committed and loyal to, you know, that firm. But from, like, we have to optimize for all the players in this transaction. Right. So firm. We don't know what we need in three years. We don't know how many people we need. We don't know the skill set of what we need. We don't know what practice areas and industries of interest, you know, we need. It is crazy for us to say, okay, recruiting team, go out and get us some talent for three years from now. Oh, by the way, I don't know what we need. I mean, that's pretty insane.

Yeah, you basically need a crystal ball, actually. And with 3L hiring making a resurgence. I mean, if Jennifer and I are correct, it actually does make more sense to hire more 3L because you're only a couple months out from them starting really in that at that time. So it's much easier to tell like, okay, you know, we know we're going to need, you know, this many people extra 3L hiring really would actually make sense. So I'm supportive of it. But we'll do.

I wish we can get there so, you know, call to action for everyone. Start thinking about that. And you know, and I always say we need to look at other industries and learn from them. And the MBA program is right. A very close parallel to law schools. And they give their students an opportunity just to summer or let's say do internships in different companies and see a couple different things and then, you know, have an opportunity to get offers from either of them and get to choose instead of being locked in so early on.

It'll be interesting. Firms are somewhat making a change that you know, they give people options to do, you know, a five or six month, like little mini summer program. And sometimes if you want out at, at a firm and you're going to.

Yeah.

Oh, did I say months? Sorry, weeks. Oh my gosh, I was like many.

Oh my God, the summer.

Yes, like half the summer weeks. Or if you went out at a firm and then you know, you to somewhere else, sometimes you can do a little touchback. That's like two or three weeks. Interesting. And so that I think is also, you know, helpful. As I said, I think now the nap rules are out, people are getting creative. So it is going to be interesting to see. I do think we're going to see more and more firms kind of get creative with what they're offering to 100%.

I mean to your point, Genevieve, when we were on campus and we saw that student get an offer before law school, firms are hosting pre law school receptions during the summer before you go to law school to meet those candidates and extend offers that way. And so folks are going to continue to get creative. But my prediction is that this is going to combust once we start to see that talent, you know, in the next couple summers, become fall associates and start to see, you know, how that really did land. Like maybe I'm totally wrong and maybe it's perfect and it works and I'll own that. But I get it.

If you see everyone else racing to hire the best here, you want to follow that. But then from the candidate's perspective, that is a really challenging Experience, because you see that happening, you go, okay, well I'm nervous about the future. Who knows, right? There's a lot of disruption. Who knows what the future brings? Wouldn't it be better for me to lock in, you know, and just start law school knowing that it's going to be okay and I've got this relationship and just go from there versus gosh, if I get to the end of, you know, 3 3L and I don't know where I'm going, that might stress me out a little bit. But you're also like, have to think if you're in that candidate's shoes, you've got three years of pretty tough, you know, school and process and unlearning ahead of you. And this summer sounds like a nice break, but then it actually ends up being, you know, another program where you have to show up and sell yourself and all that. If it's only for half the summer. And I don't know if it were me and I got a chance to go to Italy for half the summer, sign me up. Isn't that attract thing rather than locking in for the whole summer? There's a lot of things that I think we all should be thinking about to, you know, make our programs more attractive.

I completely agree with you too. And I think like to that point, it's not just about how we're recruiting. It's about, you know, the summer associate experience and what can we be offering there. I know, Mary, you had shared with us recently about that firm that's thinking about doing like the five or six weeks other firms need to start thinking about those pieces. I know in the past we have done things where it's like the summers will come to us for half of the summer and then go to a client for the second half of the summer. There's plenty of opportunity to be strategic there and meet students kind of where they're at. I think we create all these programs and we are looking to attract people, but I think we need to get back to going back on campus and asking students, what are you really actually looking for? Like, be to your point, Mary, be real with us, be transparent, like, what can we do to set you up for success? What are your goals? I think that the candidate goals shouldn't be lost in this process. And right now I think maybe that's getting lost a little bit. I'm curious from the in house perspective too because I'm thinking about, you know, as we were talking about the top of the call, a lot of the students that we Recruit, you know, ultimate goal is to go in house. And like, how will that affect, you know, their, the way that they approach that process moving forward? You know, are they going to be applying directly in house, moving out, Are they going to skip the firm thing completely? You know, is the talent pool going to shift for us? Right, where folks that we recruit maybe necessarily weren't looking to go in house, but now they are. I'm just so curious, like just down the line how this all plays out.

Totally. So I always say I don't make predictions. I never make predictions because nothing good ever comes from making predictions.

Oh boy. Genevieve, last words for us.

But coming from the in house, you know, from the client side, you used to want to hire from law firms because they would come trained. What we had already started to observe from bringing these law firm folks over to the in house side is yes, they were trained on some things really well, but we had to untrain folks on a lot of the culture, a lot of the way we work, how to talk to clients, how to work with clients. The speed, right. The style of working was very different. So in a lot of ways the substantive training was there, but we had to untrain or like retrain them on a lot of stuff. And so there always was the question of, you know, do you just want to take them out of law school and could they hit the ground running faster? I don't know. I do think that the skill set that people are looking for is going to start to change because the way legal services are delivered and the way the work is done is going to change. And you're going to start to need different profiles of people who are really good with data, people who are really good with AI, prompting people who are, I don't know, whatever, like you, you name it, different skills that you might want to hire for that. Perhaps folks who are on the junior side just have been natives, right? AI Natives. And they just happen to be coming out of school right now. So you might hire that talent because they've been working with data and building stuff on the side and like really interested in that and they might be a perfect profile candidate for an in house team. And so maybe in house teams start to recruit out of law school or they just, they take, you know, open applications. There's no test area, there's no summer internship. You just show up on day one, like again, the rest of the world.

What a concept. I think what's so interesting too is this new set of candidates that are coming into law school and what law Schools are, you know, admitting at this time are those folks with that past work experience. And to that point, Mary, maybe those are the folks who have that data background or have that previous work experience that aligns with that, that do make that perfect candidate. And maybe not to take, not to add more recruiting wars and more competition to the firm side of the house, but maybe that is something that, you know, clients can start to kind of look into more directly.

Yeah, I do think there's going to be more competition. I mean, look, we see that there's an arise in competition for firms generally for the work, whether it's from in house teams themselves, whether it's from technology, whether it's from AI enabled law firms, whether it's from alternative service providers, consulting firms, like you name it, and they're all going to need the same talent pool. So we have to be ready for that sort of reality, be coming our way and start thinking about it a hundred percent.

And I know a lot of this conversation has been geared towards those folks with past work experience, but I do think for the folks who were, you know, what we like to call K through jd, maybe that is an opportunity to set yourself apart is to really, you know, in all your spare time, dive into, you know, learning more about AI platforms and, you know, how you can contribute on that side of the house to make yourself an attractive candidate from that perspective.

Yeah. And there's going to be different roles, I mean, I don't know, that don't require specific work experience that are entry, not, you know, entry level with the JD that will be really needed at a lot of different organizations because all these organizations are going to look different.

Yeah. To me that just sounds like a really wonderful time for opportunity and it seems like it's really exciting time to, you know, be in law school and really develop your legal career in a lot of different ways that maybe traditionally weren't options before.

Yeah, we've seen, I mean, I used to say on the legal upside, there's many that go to law school to decide they don't want to be a lawyer. And there's so many options outside of the practice of law as well. Now with the rise of legal operations and legal technology and legal process optimization, I mean, the list kind of goes on and on.

Legal recruiting.

Legal recruiting. Yeah.

So as you guys have kicked off this podcast and we know so much is changing in the environment, like what kind of guests are you getting and what kind of, you know, stories are you trying to surface for your listeners?

So Jennifer and I really Wanted to focus on a couple different aspects. So one was obviously the application process, because we felt like we were going on campus to all these events and we're getting really the same questions from students. So clearly, like these things are top of their mind. So we talk about the application process, how to make your materials, how to set you up for success in that way. Interviewing. You get an offer and you know what to do when that happens. We also have a couple different guests, you being one of them, which is really exciting. We also have Kevin Lam on, who is our national hiring partner, and he kind of walks us through his journey to Big Law. He gives really great advice to students because obviously it's very anxiety inducing time. So we have him on. And then we also have one of our previous summer associates. She was a 1L. She's coming back for 2L. Just to share more about her experience and really kind of give you an inside look into what our summer program at Goodwin looks like. Give students advice in general on, like, how to, you know, make the most out of their summer program experience, whether it be a Goodwin or any other firm.

Got it. So your target audience is actually the students or people wanting to go into law school and to have a career in big Law?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Law school students. Definitely pre law students, if they're, you know, want to start thinking about law school and what that process is going to look like. So really setting students up for success from day one.

And it could be for folks who are just curious to hear a little bit more about what that process looks like. I know we covered it at a high level today, but, you know, a little bit more depth of what the application process, what do the timelines look like, what we say today may be different next cycle. It always is, actually. And so for folks who are curious about what law students today are facing and the process that they're going through is a really fun inside, light scoop of what that's looking like.

I think there's generally good tidbits of information for anyone whether they be in law or not. Especially when it comes to, like, you know, your resume, your cover letter, and interviewing, like the do's and the don'ts of all of those, I think is just generally helpful to people.

Awesome. Well, you guys, I learned a lot today. It's great to have you on. I always say there is no more exciting time to be doing what we're doing than right now. And there's so much disruption and change happening that I think it's such an opportunity to do crazy things. So let's be the ones that go first and do crazy things and let's change this whole world. Yeah.

Let's go.

I love it so much for having us on. This was great.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Mary.

All right, talk soon, guys. And everyone listening, we'll see you next time.