Caroline Gaynor: The Guide

Oh yes, this is a new season, Season 4. So welcome to Take the Long View with Matt Hall. This award-winning podcast reframes the way you think about your money, emotion, and time. The goal? Helping you put the odds of long-term success on your side. If you believe that satisfaction is often found when acting in the service of others, I have got the guest today. Let me say that one more time. If you believe that satisfaction is often found when you are acting in the service of others, I have got the guest today. I heard her speak more than 10 years ago and her talk just blew me away. And when our paths crossed again recently, I thought she needs to be on the podcast. Her name is Carolyn Gaynor and I am so excited to have her here. Carolyn is a big shot vice president at a fund company called Avantis Investors. And previously she worked at Dimensional Fund Advisors, and that's how our paths crossed. But I really wanna have her on with you today to hear her story about how she guides blind athletes to incredible accomplishments. It is really something, and I'm excited to have Carolyn join us to share her stories today. But don't take my word for it. Let me bring in a special guest to tell you how great our guest today is gonna be. When preparing for the podcast, I forced my daughter to join me in the car to listen to an audio recording of one of Carolyn's talks. And Harper, my 14-year-old, who is not easily impressed, said, "Dad, this is someone who could change the world." So if you have a middle schooler, you know how tough it is to get their attention and keep their attention. And it's also just as difficult to get a compliment like that out of them. Thanks, Harper. I think you're right. Carolyn is doing something really special. Carolyn, welcome to Take the Long View.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

I'm excited that you're here, and I've been thinking about you for many years, ever since I heard you give an incredible talk. And so I wanna skip the financial and investment conversation we may have at some point and dive into your athletic background. You are a badass athlete, and my question is, was this always the case? Is this just who you are?

I cannot claim being a badass athlete. What I will claim is that I'm pretty persistent, and I've been doing this for a very long time. It wasn't always the case. When I was younger, I was kind of a, you know, I was like a chubby middle schooler who had not a ton of talent, and I very much remember when my mindset shifted to, it doesn't matter what your natural talent is if you put in the work. And that was when I was going into my junior year of high school. I was on the cross-country team and I had been since freshman year. So freshman year I was, you know, in the top 7 freshmen and sophomores. Sophomore year I was middle of the pack JV. And I was like, this isn't very fun to be totally mediocre. So I decided to run every day between the summer of sophomore year and junior year. And I dropped like 2 minutes on a 2.5-mile race and ended up being fast enough to not only train with the varsity team, but also be on the varsity team. So I think it was really when I was about 16 that I learned the value of hard work and how much that can overcome.

But persistence, I guess, is necessary if you're going to be an endurance athlete.

Oh yeah.

Who inspired you, or why, why pursue an endurance sport?

Well, my dad was a big endurance athlete and he was also the type to just continue pushing even if he wasn't always the best. And he has kind of a similar story, although he ended up at a much higher level than I did. He actually won the World Championships in, I think it was 1974, in the men's lightweight 8. So, a pretty spectacular athlete, but he always kind of drilled that into me.

Wait, Carolyn, I don't even know what that means. What does lightweight 8 mean?

He was a rower, an oarsman, and there's lightweight and heavyweight. And he rowed in college and then pursued elite rowing after college and ended up making the boat to represent the US and they won the gold medal. Wow. Pretty incredible. It's completely out of the realm of anything that I've accomplished. Wow.

Yeah. So then how do you get into triathlons and why triathlons?

I'm also gonna point to my dad. I remember he did one leg of a triathlon back when I was, you know, in probably elementary school. He didn't do the full thing, but that's when I learned what it was. And so one Christmas I asked for a bike and I remember, I think I was, you know, I was middle, like late high school. And I said I wanted to do one and my family supported me and I wrote my whole training plan and I spent the whole summer. And it was the summer right before senior year of high school that I completed my first Olympic distance tri. And I even wrote my college entrance essay on what it was like to, to do this race and to prepare. You know, now there are a lot of younger people that do it, but back then it wasn't as popular. This was like 22 years ago or something like that. Um, and so it really made an impact on me. And thankfully I got into my college of choice too. So it definitely pushed me towards continuing the endurance path.

Wait, what characterizes something as a triathlon? And then what's the difference between a triathlon and Ironman?

So a triathlon is a multi-sport event that typically people think of as a swim followed by a bike and then a run. There are a lot of different types now, but when people refer to Ironman, they're speaking— it's really Ironman as a brand. But if you're talking about a full Ironman, that is a very specific distance. Um, so the distances are a 2.4-mile swim, a 112-mile bike, and then a marathon, 26.2 miles of running. And that's all at once. So like back to back.

I just want to say for the record, I have only done a couple half marathons and I thought, man, I'm good, that's about all I got. So the idea of running a full marathon after everything else, I just can't imagine.

But can I object to the only thing? Just because we have a lot of different people listening and I hear this all the time, I only run 5Ks, I only do this, and for me it's Each distance has its own challenges. You go harder when you're doing a half marathon solo than you do, you know, in the marathon portion of an Ironman. So I'm just going to say they're all different, and, uh, not one is not better than the other.

Okay, okay. Well, you're an elite endurance athlete in my opinion, but that isn't necessarily what blows me away. There's more to this story, and I would like for you to take us to the point where you first tried your shoes on as a guide.

Mm-hmm. That, okay, so, and maybe I should first define, you know, what is guiding? Because—

Yeah, what does that mean? What does it mean to be a guide?

So there is a whole category of athletes called para athletes. So that's anybody with a disability. I specifically serve now as a guide for blind and visually impaired athletes. I started doing this back in 2008. And at the time, I really didn't understand what that meant. And what I always like to reference, 'cause I think people tend to be more familiar with skiing and blind athletes. So if you've ever been skiing, ever been skiing and you've seen, you know, two people skiing near each other, one, they usually will have a vest on, one will say guide and one will say blind. And that is, it's the exact same thing as in triathlon where the blind athlete just needs somebody to serve as their vision during the race. Like they are physically doing the entire thing by themselves, but they need someone with them. So that's what guiding a triathlon is. And the first time I ever did that was kind of by accident. In 2008, I was signed up for the New York City Triathlon and somebody gave me a call. And I remember sitting at my first job in finance out of college. And I vividly remember getting this phone call. A friend said, "Hey, there's this visually impaired woman coming into the city from Chicago. And she's been training to do the New York City Tri, but she doesn't have a guide yet. Do you know anyone that can help?" To this day, I'm not sure if they were actually asking me or if they really wanted to know if I knew someone, but I raised my hand and was like, "Well, I'm already signed up. I've done this race." And so that was how I fell into guiding. And what it means to be a guide is in a race, you are step by step, every inch of the race, you're with the visually impaired person. On the swim, you're going to be tethered either around the waist or around the thigh with a bungee cord so that, again, you're attached to the person. So I don't ever want to be ahead of the person I'm guiding because they're the ones setting the pace. On the bike, you're riding a tandem, so the pilot is in the front of the bike, but you're both putting out effort. And then on the run, you're tethered again. So you're going to be, you know, wrist or waist tether, whatever the preference is, and you're calling out obstacles along the way. But it's from start to finish, the guide is with the person who's racing.

When you think back on that original experience, what memories come to mind?

The mindset shift, you know, so this is the New York City Tri, which I had done, I guess, maybe 4 or 5 times. And it's a completely different experience when you are racing as a guide. It is no longer about your performance, your finishing time. Of course that matters because you don't want to let the person down. But it, I remember walking from the transition area to the start of this race, you know, Kim was holding onto my shoulder and it was just like, this is a different race for me now. And your priorities change. And honestly, it's a lot more meaningful. So that's what I remember vividly about that first experience is I really prefer this.

It feels like a kind of intimate experience, and yet you don't— I don't think you know, at least in this case, you didn't know the person.

That's been the case several times. Um, and I'm very lucky that I really enjoy people because I think that's been a real benefit, that I want to get to know people. But it is very, very intimate. And imagine when you're suffering through something, you really want to read the person you're with. Because I've been in races or been running with somebody and like they're having a really bad time and then you're feeling pretty great. And, you know, whoever's feeling bad will feel that much worse, you know. So you have to understand the emotional, physical, verbal cues from the person you're with so that you're not doing things that will upset their energy in a way.

Yeah, but how do you read that? You're in the middle of, of doing some hardcore exercise. How do you sense that or feel that?

Well, that's when it's really just getting to know the person. I think spending the time up front, if it's somebody that you don't know that well, and just learning what they prefer, and then Number one thing is developing trust. Because, you know, the person has to understand that they can let you know what they need, like that they're not going to offend you, you are there for them. But then also on the flip side, like as a guide, I need to be able to say what I need to say to the person I'm with. And the really good guiding relationships, and I think this goes for just about any relationship really, is the ones where you can be yourself and ask for what you need. And that's a harder thing that it sounds like.

Yeah. So how many triathlons have you done, and then how many times have you served as a guide?

I used to have a spreadsheet. So I've been doing triathlons since 2001. I raced solo for, I guess, 7 years. I probably did 30 triathlons then, and then I have lost count of how many I've guided. Again, probably 30, 40. A lot of them required travel, so it's not like I'm doing high volume. But the thing that I enjoy the most is guiding Ironmans. And, uh, I've now guided 10 full Ironmans, which is that, you know, distance that we talked about earlier. And the first time I did that was in 2010. So it's been, yeah, I guess I can't believe it's 2022. Yeah. So about 12 years I've been guiding full Ironmans.

Okay. Well, before we dive into a couple of Ironman stories, are you just in perpetual training? Like, are you just forever training for the next thing?

I think that's— that used to be a joke because the first Ironman I guided, I wasn't training to do an Ironman when I agreed to help. So yeah, I would say that for many years I really did try to stay in, you know, I could just go out and ride 112 miles and not have a problem with it. That is probably less the case now. Just, I have a toddler and a job that's pretty demanding. Um, so I typically will agree to guide with lots of notice, but yeah, for, I would say probably 7 or 8 years, I tried to be fit enough at any time. Not that I would perform at my best, but that I could complete it should anybody need help.

Okay, so take us to an experience and what it feels like to be tethered to someone and be taking on an Ironman, and walk us through some of what it feels like. What does it feel like when you are starting the race about to jump into the water together?

I mean, that's always the hardest part actually, is just before the start, 'cause you're like, what have I gotten myself into? I don't know if I wanna be doing this.

Do you sleep well the night before, or are you so, do you get amped up for these things?

I would say amped up. And the good thing is the night before doesn't matter that much. What matters is getting sleep in the weeks leading up to it. You definitely wanna be well rested, but the night before, yeah, you're not gonna get a full night's sleep. There's no way. I think my nerves before a race kind of depends on the mindset of the athlete I'm with. So if there's somebody who's got high levels of anxiety or if there's some sort of obstacle in the swim, like the most recent one that I guided, we were both nervous because there was an absurd amount of jellyfish in the water. I mean, I'm talking disgusting levels of jellyfish and we knew what we were getting into. It's like you're walking into something painful. So that was probably the most difficult swim to start. But even though I'm there guiding, it definitely is like, I don't ever wanna let anyone down. And so it's pretty scary to start one of those races. You just never know what'll happen.

I've never witnessed a triathlon in person, but it just appears to me when I, maybe it's just in my imagination, that thousands of people are jumping in the water and banging into each other. And it doesn't feel to me, at least in my head, organized. It feels like chaos.

Yeah.

So how do you handle, you're tethered to someone and you have to, in some ways, protect them them, I think.

Yeah.

How does this work?

I would say the first race where I really understood how difficult it would be to guide that was the very first Ironman I guided, because I had done one Ironman solo and it had been about 5 years, but it's a very different thing when you're guiding a visually impaired person because in Ironman races, historically, they were a mass start race, which means you're not starting in different corrals where you've got 5 to 10 minutes between the event or between each group of people. In an Ironman race, usually all the competitors start at once. But one accommodation they make for para athletes, so again, anyone with a disability, is they would let them start 10 minutes ahead. And at the time, so this was Ironman Lake Placid 2010, at the time that seemed like a great thing because the athlete I was racing with and I could get our groove, you know, we could start swimming very calmly, peacefully, and get a rhythm going. And I remember about 5 minutes into this 2.4-mile swim, I looked back and saw this mass of 2,000 men and women all super fit, getting ready to swim at us. It almost felt like they were coming to attack us, you know, swim at us as fast as they could. And that was when it really hit home what this was going to be like. And so I will tell you, I felt the water coming towards us before the athletes even got there. And, uh, so Patricia is the woman I was racing with, and she's a very strong swimmer, incredible athlete, but this was her first Ironman, and she was, you know, a little bit nervous. So she had her head out of the water, which makes it even more difficult. So I remember that when the athletes started coming, I got into sort of defense mode, to your point. And I was like putting my hand out and grabbing people's foreheads and kind of sticking my foot out because when you're tethered, the last thing you want is for someone to swim between you and to grab the tether and pull it off, which is absolutely something that can happen. So it felt like a battlefield. And I was a water polo player in high school. And it was one of the only times I think water polo skills are practical in real-world situations.

Yeah, because aren't there a lot of like hijinks going on underneath the water in water polo? It feels like people are pulling one another under. I don't know much about it, but it looks rough to me.

It's like a full contact sport. I was— I always liked it because it was like one of the only contact sports for women.

Sounds like it prepared you well for the swim of the triathlon. Um, okay, so then on the bike, I like how earlier you said like, I could just ride 100 miles with no problem. You know, most of us— I've never I've never ridden a bike 100 miles. And in this day and age where lots of people I know have bikes at home, I don't think most people could ride or have tried to ride 100 miles. What's it like to be the guide on a tandem bike? I've never been on a tandem bike, and I've heard you say that it's harder than maybe it appears.

Oh, and I'm gonna go back to that first race that I guided in the New York City Triathlon 2008, because I didn't understand how much more difficult it would be. I agreed to guide this race one week before the event, and I had done one ride on a tandem bike, and that was one loop of Central Park with a sighted man on the back. And I think I was just pretty naive expecting that when Kim and I got to this race, we would be able to just get up and, you know, and start. But even though we had talked about every single thing we were planning to do, even to the effect of like, put one leg over, put one leg in the pedal, you know, 1, 2, 3, go, it was not working. It's almost like especially the more nervous you are, the more the bike feels. So the front end of this bike was shaking back and forth. We couldn't even get up the momentum to get started. So when I talk about the responsibility of being a guide, you know, not wanting your performance to affect the person you're with, I really didn't know how to overcome this. So I kind of— we had to stop and almost rethink everything. And I just went back to all the cycling coaches I'd ever had. I went back to physics lessons. You know, how do we get, get up enough momentum? So that, you know, the bike can keep moving. And so what I did was I said, "All right, Kim, I want you to pretend that the handlebars aren't there," because I figured that either she was nervous or I was nervous or we both were, and that was really transferring our energy to the bike because I was sure we were going to crash. But when she pretended that the handlebars weren't there, we were able to get up enough momentum to do that. And I do want to share one more story because there's a really interesting thing that happened— well, terrifying thing that happened. The next year, I did the same race with Kim and we rode a different bike and the seat broke. So there was a clamp that allowed my saddle to go up and down and her handlebars were connected to it and it snapped off and broke about 3 miles into the bike. And we were able to flag down a mechanic and we got some electrical tape to wrap around it. And I have a photo of all the electrical tape we used, but what that meant was my seat was slammed down to the bottom and it was essentially floating. So there were a couple of U-turns on the race and the handlebars would like turn to the right. So the lesson that we learned from that very first race, I mean, we, I don't know how we actually did the bike ride that next year, but her learning how to use her core and, and try to avoid touching the handlebars as much as possible is the only way we finished the race the next year. I don't recommend riding a bike that way. I'll tell you that.

You also, I remember hearing you also had to MacGyver some type of new tether one time when you either lost or broke another tether.

Yes. One of the lessons I've learned from guiding and just triathlons in general is that something always goes wrong. So it can be something major or something minor, but just be prepared for that and know that it's okay and you can overcome it if you're not too rigid. So the very first Ironman where I was just talking about that crazy swim, we'd actually forgotten our tether that morning. And Patricia is, she's an engineer. She's an actual genius, I'm sure. And she didn't get flustered by the fact that we'd forgotten this tether that she was so accustomed to using. And she told me, "All right, let's go find a bike mechanic." And we ended up asking this bike mechanic for two inner tubes. And I was like, "For what?" And she tied them together and we created a tether out of bike tubes. And that's how we did the Ironman swim in that very first race. Which is just wild to think about. But it's one of those, we could have just stopped the day then. We might not even have started the race, but it's so important to think about what's your ultimate goal? Like, what are you trying to do? You know, is there a way to get to the start line? Is there a way to get to the finish line? And if there is some sort of a solution, you have to go for it.

What would you like to tell people about the blind community? Because I must admit, I don't have a friend who is visually impaired. I don't know anyone who is blind. What do you think, is misunderstood about the blind community?

I appreciate that question. I want to state that in no way am I speaking for the blind community, but as a person who is privileged enough to get to tell stories about what it's like to guide, I think it's absolutely my responsibility to share how impressive, accomplished, capable, and normal all of these amazing friends that I have now that are blind are, because the blind population is underemployed, And I think a lot of people have an idea that if they can't imagine how a blind person accomplishes something, it's something that can't be accomplished. And that's just not the case. So again, Patricia, who I did the Ironman with, she's an engineer at Facebook now. I have multiple friends that are attorneys. One of my other friends runs one of the largest vanilla extract companies in the world. I say all of these things because it's important to know that blind people are just like you and me, and they have ways to accomplish all the things that we do. And they're just dynamic, interesting, wonderful people. And so just don't assume what someone can accomplish based on whether they can see or not.

Yeah. I've heard you say that there's something every triathlete or every endurance athlete who pursues triathlons at the highest level, there's something you all want to hear. There's like the greatest moment is what?

So when it comes to Ironman triathlon, it's this crazy event, right? Where you've trained for 6, 7, 8 months. You have put in hours of training. It's very selfish. Like, you're away from your family, you're away from your friends. And I mean, the fastest people that do an Ironman, the pros, are going, you know, 8-something hours, maybe sometimes faster. But often an Ironman will take you 15, 16, 17 hours. And there's this, like, incredible announcer at the finish line of all these Ironmans. And the one phrase that I think every single person who signs up for an Ironman wants to hear is to have the announcer say, "Caroline, you are an Ironman." Although when I'm guiding, again, I would not expect my name to be called. I wouldn't want my name to be called, but there's nothing better than hearing, you know, the name of the athlete that you're with, "You are an Ironman." I mean, it brings chills to me even now just thinking about it.

You made an important point that I wanna highlight is when you're a guide, none of your times or participation counts, right? It's like, you're just, you're sort of, in some ways, I guess, invisible to the record book.

I think a guide should be. And it's interesting, when I first started, I mean, I didn't even have to sign a waiver, which is a real problem, I think, for those races. But racing has come a long way and it's much more common now. But yeah, when I'm signed up as a guide, my results don't go into the age group. You know, nowadays I will have a chip and a tracker, but it's as part of like the team for this blind person that I'm racing with. But yeah, your results don't count for the record book, or at least they shouldn't. You're there as an accommodation. So, oh, another thing I should probably say is when you're racing as a guide, you shouldn't have to pay for the race entry. The reason I say you shouldn't have to is because if you are expecting a blind person to pay for their own race entry, and then they have to find a guide, and then if there was an additional barrier, meaning that the guide has to pay for their own race entry, that just makes it even harder. So having a guide for a blind or visually impaired person is a reasonable accommodation in order to race. It's like, You gotta let wheelchair athletes, you know, race in their racing chair. Blind people need a guide. So that's how I think of my role in this is I'm just there to help them get to the finish line.

Okay, let's jump back though to the emotional ending where someone says your name and then you are an Ironman. I'm thinking that that's like the pinnacle and I'm imagining tears and tons of emotion coming out from both you and the other party, both for having finished the race, but hearing their name called in that way. And it makes me want to ask you, if you're with someone for somewhere between 9 hours and 17 hours, do you laugh and cry and argue throughout the race? Or how do you— What's the tension like throughout this time together? 'Cause I can't believe it's all just, you know, jokes and smiles for the whole thing.

Oh, it absolutely isn't. It really depends on how both of us are feeling. And then again, there's no better way to get to know somebody really, really well than to be tethered to them for an entire day. So my hope always when I'm guiding one of these is that I'll feel good the whole way. So I want to make sure that whoever I'm racing with, that I am stronger than they are when they're having their best performance and I'm having my worst. That doesn't always happen, but ideally I can control my emotions and I feel okay. And. And all of that stuff. But there are definitely times when I'm not feeling good and, uh, and it's really stressful. But, you know, I've had arguments during Ironmans. Uh, yeah.

Tell us about that. Have you, what, what's been like a low point or a tough argument you've had during a race?

You know, I won't point to an argument, but I wanna point to me having a bad day because I think so many people hear these stories and they're like, oh wow, you've done all these great things. And you know, you, you must be infallible. And that's absolutely not the case. And I think about when I guided the Ironman World Championship in 2017, and I was racing with this awesome person, Helen Webb, who, she's a mom, she's got a PhD in biochemistry, she's just a superhuman. But she had struggled a bit on the bike. She'd overheated because she has albinism and like the sun was just really affecting her. And so I put out, I think, too much energy on the bike to get us to that bike finish line. And so when we started the run, I was honestly terrified that I wouldn't be able to complete the marathon. And I was really, really scared. And she had recovered a bit. She was starting to feel good again. And so we're a couple of miles into this race. We're running, you know, the Big Island of Hawaii. It was, you know, 90 degrees. There's heat from the outside. There's heat radiating up from the ground. It was just brutal. And she had said to me before we started the race, she'd said, look, if you ever need me to be quiet or tone it down or anything like that, just tell me. And she gave me permission to ask her for quiet, to ask her for anything I needed. And I knew that I could do that without her being worried that I wouldn't be able to race, without her being worried or offended. And so I was like, Helen, I'm not feeling amazing. Can we just, you know, run in silence for a little while? And that was so helpful for me to be able to focus on my stride, to focus on regaining my energy. And after a few miles, I felt much, much better. But I really do wonder what would've happened if I hadn't been able to trust her and ask for that. Because as a guide, especially, it's really scary to feel like you might be the weak link, but it can happen. And when you go into one of these events, you have to know that.

Carolyn, when has taking a long view really paid off for you? When you've been patient and disciplined and the outcome has been worth the wait?

The best example where I've taken the long view would certainly be the, I wanna say it was the second Ironman I guided. This was in Arizona in 2011. I think I had hypothermia on the swim and then we were able to finish the bike. But by the time we got to the run, my legs were cramping so badly that I ended up having to sort of tap out and say like, "We need to get some other people to step in and guide." So, this is mile 13 on the run. And this was absolutely devastating. I was in a terrible, you know, point in my personal life. And to add this failure, what I saw as a failure on top of that, was just crushing. So I referenced that because that was me taking the long view because I continued to guide after that. And I think that it would have been really easy to say, "I failed, I'm not good at this, I'm not worth it. They could find someone better than me." But if I had quit after that, my life would have taken a completely different course. So I think that pushing through failure, and now I don't even see it as a failure. I think it was the right call because I might've fallen over and pulled my athlete down with me. There were a lot of things that could have happened, but I'm so glad that instead of using that to determine my worth as a guide, I continued to do it and it completely has changed my life.

Okay, so if I'm doing something for 16 to 18 hours, what are the tricks that you guys have to fuel yourself? Like, what does one eat? What does one drink? Is there any sort of magic bullet that helps you, you know, sort of catch another wave or like get yourself in a stronger position?

What does one eat, or what do I eat? Because those are very different questions. I have very strange habits because for me, I think I require more calories than most people do. And my favorite thing to eat, especially on the bike, is salt and vinegar potato chips. I know that sounds really strange to most people, but imagine you're on the bike for between 6 and 8 hours in an Ironman. You need to get in a ton of calories because you're less likely to be able to consume solid food while you're running. So I bring peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I like fruit snacks and salt and vinegar potato chips. There's something about, you know, they're easy to digest for me. They add a little bit of sodium, and that's one of my favorite things to pack when I'm doing a really long bike ride.

So you're riding the bike and you just pull these things out of what, like a little picnic basket attached to the bike?

Kind of, no, see, I mean, that would be helpful. Jerseys tend to have pockets, so I'll try to shove them in pockets. I will say though, the volume of chips is much more difficult. And then you'll put, sometimes you'll have a thing called a bento box on the front of the bike. You can shove it in there. And then halfway point of most Ironman has a thing called special needs where you can fill a bag with things you might want and you can pull over and get the food that you want. Lately I've been trying to not do that because it just wastes time. But there are different ways to get food that you want in an Ironman. But yeah, it's a little annoying to stuff that into a jersey pocket.

Speaking of jerseys, I've noticed in all the photos I've seen of you that you and your partner always look very cool. Where do you get these flashy outfits you seem to always have?

I do like matching. I will say it's fun to wear the same outfit as the person you're racing with. It depends. There are a bunch of companies that'll do custom kits. When Helen and I did the Ironman World Championship, we got a company to put the logo of several organizations that had supported us, like Dare to Try and Challenge Athletes Foundation, which are groups that help para athletes. But the thing I loved about those kits were that Helen had the South African flag on the sleeve of her jersey, and I had the American flag because we were representing two different countries. And that was really fun to just, you know, show the world that we were two people that had come together from literally across the globe to compete probably the hardest Ironman triathlon out there. And that was really, really fun. Hmm.

You had said to me that one of the things you want people to take away from your experience is that we can all do more than we're capable of. Why do you think most people limit their own possibilities?

I think it's really easy to assume you can't do something. And the other thing is it takes so much work sometimes to get to a destination. You know, there, I could probably run a whole lot faster than I, I can right now. I know I could, but the amount of work it would take, right, to, to get there can seem really daunting. So I think what that comes down to is Choosing a big scary goal, choosing something you want to accomplish, and then actually focusing, instead of always focusing on that end goal, focusing on the little tiny steps to get there. It's so easy to give up if you are only thinking about that end goal, when really what's important is to focus on doing the work in small increments every single day to get there. And then more than anything, if you ever slip up, like if you take a week off of training or if you, you know, whatever, you know, you're trying to accomplish, stop dwelling on your perceived failures. I think that's one of my biggest things that I'm trying to work on in my life is don't worry about what you didn't do or what you could have done better. If you are always reflecting on that, moving forward is just that much harder.

You also told me that doing for others is both selfless and selfish.

100%. I don't think of anything that I've done in the guiding world as selfless because I would argue I've gotten more from guiding than the women that I've raced with have gotten from me guiding them. Like they're just out there to do a race. And for me, I'm like, I cannot believe that I get to do these events with people that I consider awesome friends. And it makes me not even— I do some races alone, not usually Ironmans, but, um, there's, it's just, there's a reason I keep doing it. It's not the same. It's so much better to share experiences. And I think we all know that people with families, sharing things with others is just a more— it's a more meaningful way to, to do things. And so for me, I get to share— I love racing, I've always loved racing, and I get to share that with other people. So to me, that's, that's very selfish, and, and not in a bad— I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing that it's selfish.

Yeah. You also said that there's something therapeutic about it too, that it can help pull you out of a dark place, you know, that helping someone else can do that for you.

I think that goes for anything where you're giving to others, but absolutely. I mean, I had a lot of ups and downs between 2008 and now. I've had many dips in my life, especially in my 20s, but the one constant was guiding. And without a doubt, continuing to race as a guide pulled me out of some really dark places. And I, I would imagine that for anyone else who's struggling, you know, finding some way to volunteer, finding a way to give back, it just— it's something that can can really take you out of what you're experiencing in your personal life. It can help you start to take the steps necessary to get back to, you know, sort of a more even state. So I encourage anybody who's struggling to pursue ways to volunteer and give back.

A couple more things. Will you guide for the rest of your life?

I hope so. If I'm lucky enough, I will. I hope so.

You didn't say this earlier, I don't think, but just for the record, you were the first female guide to help a blind person complete an Ironman.

As far as I know, that is the case. There's no like official record book, but that was part of why Patricia—

There is, there is a record book, Carolyn. I have it. I saw it.

Yeah. Well, that's, that was Patricia's goal is she wanted to do, um, she wanted to be the first blind woman to do an Ironman with a female guide. And she hadn't chosen me. She had chosen a friend nearby where she lived in Seattle at the time. And 5 weeks out, her guide got hurt and somebody connected us online. So I was lucky enough to be a sub, which seems like I'm pretty frequently a sub, but that's okay. But yeah, I believe that that's the case.

You know, when I heard you give a talk maybe 7 years ago, you worked for a company called Dimensional, and now you, you work for Avantis. And Avantis is a company that is connected to American Century. Which is based in Kansas City. I'm based in St. Louis. And most people, if you're in the Midwest and you pay attention to investment companies, American Century has a cool connection through their foundation that I think does cancer research. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Absolutely. So first of all, I absolutely love my role at Dimensional because I got to work closely with advisors and that's something I continue to do with my, in my job at Avantis. But one of the things that drew me to Avantis was the connection to American Century because the founder of American Century, a guy named Jim Stowers, when he was getting ready to retire, instead of, you know, just transferring wealth to his children or things like that, he signed Warren Buffett's Giving Pledge. And so what he did was he donated all of his shares to create the Stowers Institute for Medical Research. So the majority owner of American Century is this medical nonprofit. And so our dividends help fund research for cancer and gene-based diseases. And to me, that matters. And I'm not saying that every company should do something like that, but it was a really unique way to solve succession planning. And then also give back in perpetuity. So that makes me feel really good about coming to work every day.

That's so cool. You know, one thing we didn't touch on, the movie and the Race Across America story.

Oh yeah. In 2018, I was part of the first team of blind athletes to do Race Across America with blind athletes with sighted guides. So it was a team of 4 tandems with blind stokers and sighted pilots. And this is a 3,000-mile race from Oceanside to Annapolis. and we had a documentary crew follow us. And the purpose of this, you know, filming a documentary was to change the perception of what blind people can accomplish. So everyone on this team was an accomplished professional. So the guy that I referenced who owns one of the largest vanilla extract companies, he was on the team. The documentary should be coming out this year, and the team name was Team C2C. So it'll be interesting to see, but I would definitely encourage people to watch it if they encounter it.

And it's basically all day and all night.

Yes, it is all day and all night. You are— at least one bike is riding at all times. And so, you know, when one team finishes a shift, they ride up and then the other team takes off. So it's like wheels overlap. So it is a continuous ride. So that's why it's a very expensive and labor-intensive undertaking, because you've got van drivers, you've got RVs for people to sleep in when you're not riding, you've got a whole crew that's cooking, you've got mechanics. It's, I mean, it's a real event and it is 100% a life-changing experience. It is also very expensive and I'm very fortunate that I've gotten to do this race a couple of times, but doing it as a pilot was a, that was a completely different thing because piloting a tandem when you're sleep deprived is extra hard. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Well, I don't know what you're going to do next, but it feels like you've done plenty. It feels like you're good for a while. Race Across America. I mean, that is incredible. Would you do it again?

Oh, in a heartbeat.

You would? Oh my gosh. I bet I have a friend or two who will hear this podcast and think, "I wonder if Carolyn would help me train for a marathon." Have you ever been asked by people who are not in the blind community to help them train or accomplish an Ironman or a triathlon?

I think I've written a couple training plans in my life, but I'm not a coach, and I have tons of respect for coaches, and I always hire a coach. And to go back to even financial advisors, like even if I know how to manage my own money, I absolutely want to have a financial advisor because I need an objective third party to help me with, with my life situation. And I think the same thing goes for training. So I don't coach myself. I hire a coach. And, uh, and because I'm not a professional coach, I have not coached people, but, uh, I'm always happy to recommend coaches because I think that that's another great way if you're trying to get started is to have somebody to hold you accountable. To make sure that you have that plan. And they'll help you even when you have like lulls in your training to continue to move forward. So I'm a big fan of hiring professionals who really know what they're doing.

I have so much respect for you, and I love your story. I love that you took what is, as you said, you know, a somewhat selfish sport. You know, it takes so much time developing yourself, working on, you know, your swim, your bike, your run. You took that and have morphed it into something where you're really helping other people accomplish their own dreams. And I think it's instructive and challenges. I'll say just for myself, it makes me think about, you know, how I could do something similar. So I really appreciate you sharing a bit of your story. If people want to learn more about you or about your story, where should they go?

I have a website that I update infrequently, and it's Carolyn Bikes. Carolinebikes.com. Also on Twitter, same handle. People can feel free to reach out anyway. I'm always happy to point people in the right direction when it comes to guiding. It shouldn't be too hard to find me if you Google me too. So if anyone is interested, please don't hesitate to reach out. And I do hope people take something from this. And I love the idea of kind of doing more, but again, I have to reiterate how lucky I am and how much I've gotten from doing this. And it far outweighs what I've given.

Thank you for that. That was great. All right, Carolyn. Well, I so enjoyed having you on. Thanks for doing this.

This is the most fun podcast I've done, so I really love it.

Wow. What a compliment. What a story. And what a great episode. I hope you're as inspired as I am. If you were to guide another person, where and how would you do it? Please note, the information shared in this podcast is not intended as advice. The intent is to share meaningful experiences. I am likely not your advisor, nor wealth manager, nor financial planner, and my opinions are my own and not necessarily shared by Hill Investment Group. Investing involves risk. Consult a professional before implementing an investment strategy. Thank you.