David Coggins: Fishing for Perspective (Season 3, Episode 5)

Welcome to Take the Long View with Matt Hall. This is a podcast to reframe the way you think about your money, emotion, and time. And today, fly fishing. The goal: helping you put the odds of long-term success on your side. Do you spend much time in nature? Have you ever stood in a stream for 4 or 5 hours and thought, Man, that felt good. Some do this in pursuit of fish and others just to widen their gaze. I believe fishing is more about the other stuff than the actual catching of the fish. Think about taking someone you care about fishing and seeing them have success. Their joy when they catch their first fish is a sweet, sweet thing to observe. David Coggins is our guest today, and he is a master when it comes to writing, thinking, and observing the beauty of fishing and what it can do for your longer view. David is the author of "Men and Manners" and the New York Times bestseller, "Men and Style." He writes about fly fishing, tailoring, drinking, and travel for numerous publications, including the Financial Times, Bloomberg Pursuits, and Conde Nast Traveler. David lives in New York and fishes regularly in the Catskills, Wisconsin, and Montana. And I think you should follow him on Instagram and you'll see that he is a man of the world. And I can't wait to talk with him about his latest book, "The Optimist: A Case for the Fly Fishing Life." David Coggins, thanks for taking your time to share your stories with my listeners.

Thank you, Matt. Really appreciate it. Great to be here.

I happen to think you are a great writer.

Thank you.

I wanna start there and ask you, are you a great writer because you are so observant and thoughtful, or are you thoughtful and observant because you know you are a writer?

Whoa, good question. I, you know, it's funny, I've never thought of it that way. I think, I think there are two— well, there's more than two things, but let's just take the two things you mentioned about writing and observing. I think there's the craft of writing, which comes from doing it a lot and kind of writing so much that maybe you don't think about it anymore. I think people who start writing are very self-conscious about it. They haven't imitated people they think are good writers. At least that's what you do when you're young and you write like Salinger, Hemingway, or someone with a very strong point of view. And you kind of follow in that point of view. And it takes a long time to kind of, what I say, write through that, right through your influences, right beyond that. And that's actually a good place because I think younger people, or people who are starting writing, are very concerned about their style. It's like when you're in an art class as a student, you're 18 years old, you're obsessed about your style. It's just relax and do it for 10 years, and the style will come to you when you're not even paying attention. And then as far as observation goes, That's something that I think depends on anybody, whether they write or not, and you just wanna look for things that tell you something, that reveal something about what it means to be human. And I think that's something that's just interested me for a long time, and hopefully that observation and the writing comes together and reveals something new.

So, The Optimist: The Case for the Fly-Fishing Life, it's about fishing, but it's about much more. Mm. And in part it got me thinking because I've received multiple text messages from people I've shared your book with who have already booked trips to, I think, mainly Patagonia.

Nice.

But are you hoping to inspire readers to take up the game, as you call it, or do you worry about the best spots getting too crowded?

I think that's a very good question and something I think about. I mean, at a certain point, if you write about things, whether it's a hotel or a tailor, or a place to fish, you either keep it to yourself or you become a more— if you're writing in a public way, you have to understand that that's going to happen, that your secrets are going to be given up to a certain extent. So I want people to fish. I think it's a great sport. I think it's a great thing to do. And I also think it makes— I want people to have some of the same feelings I have or feel them their own way, a sense of discovery, a connection to the natural world, things that I think— I don't want to say they make people better. It certainly makes me happier and I think probably a better person in some way. And if I run into someone in Patagonia, there's enough room down there for all of us. I still keep a few secrets to myself.

So you say the tagline of my firm and this podcast, Take the Long View, multiple times in the book.

Yes.

So we have to talk and we have to know each other. And in some way we have to become friends because no one uses Take the Long View as perfectly as you do. And I want to use a lighter example. There are a couple of— I highlighted them all, but I want to highlight a lighter example as we start our conversation. This is a point of connection that I just love because when you say take the long view in your book, it's perfectly applied by my standards. And here's the example. You are fishing with your friend Andrew. You're having good luck. Andrew's not so much. And you say, I can philosophize all I want and tell Andrew to take the long view. And make no mistake, I did. I'm sure I was an absolute bore. And then Andrew's luck quickly changes. My question to you is, what inspired you to start using that expression or saying that, and how does it, for you, connect to fishing?

One thing that happens with age, right? You see larger patterns, at least I do as I get older. And I think there's an urgency we have when we're young and a certain energy for life that's totally understandable that we have when we're young and we want to do everything. Everything seems like it matters so much. And then when you get a little older, you pull back a little bit. You see that there are larger patterns and you'll have more chances. I think fishing is hard sometimes, especially if you don't get to do it a lot, if you're really busy. And you put a lot of pressure on yourself and you've got 3 days to fish and of course you want to catch fish. But if you're lucky, you say, you know, sometimes it's, it's outside of your control and you can't catch fish. And I think part of fishing a lot is coming to terms with failure, really. It doesn't have to be failure in that sense, just coming to terms with the fact that you're not catching fish. You're still in a beautiful place. You're with someone you care about. If you're fishing with a friend, you can be in Patagonia or Maine. But when I say take the long view there, it's like, it's a good place to be. If I'm fishing, it's a good day. And of course, that doesn't stop me from then wanting to catch more fish or bigger fish or do something more memorable. But I try to keep in mind that I, I'm happy to be there. And I think the older I got, and when I was lucky enough to fish more, then it was easier for me to have a different perspective and not look at everything hour by hour, but think about what it means to fish many days a year or be in a place that I care about many days a year. And I think people can connect with that. And if you follow baseball or You know, the baseball is an interesting sport because it, it's a long season, as they say, and, and your team goes up and down and people strike out and leave runners on base and make errors, and hopefully you end up in an all right place. But it's about all those things coming together.

Yeah, it's such a good expression, at least in what I do for a living, in dealing with the uncertainty of now.

Sure.

I love that you seem to care a lot about all the little details, like the way you pack your car. Like having a secret flask.

Sure.

There are all these things that you talk about that have nothing to do with fishing, and yet in some ways have everything to do with the experience.

Right. I mean, this is what I try to tell people, and I think what I argue for in the book is that people who don't fish, they look at it in an understandably narrow way. You're casting and trying to catch a fish. I try to pull back and look at the entire day or a trip. Let's say you're going on a trip, and I You look forward to it and you anticipate going. And if it's your friend, you write each other things you might want to get and you definitely don't need them, but you're certainly still going to buy them. And you look forward to it and you follow the weather and there's this wonderful sense of anticipation. And then you wake up, if you're lucky, in Patagonia and it's a beautiful day and you're in Argentina or Chile and all these things come together and you're with a guide there and they have their own traditions and habits and they're kind of dashing and they're going to grill you a steak for lunch. We haven't even gotten to the fishing yet, right? And then if you're lucky, you're, you know, you're in a beautiful setting, and then there's the fishing and the kind of remembering and misremembering and the shared experience. And hopefully you go back the next year and you talk about the previous year and all these things happen. And so I think that's having a drink in a nice place. It's having a good meal. It's being with someone you care about and all those things together. That's fishing to me. That's why I love it. And that's what I'm trying to make a case for in this book. And of course, the immediate pleasures of catching a fish are definitely real. And if you like that, which I do, you feel very connected to nature in that moment when you've got a fish on the line. That's not theoretical, that's not about writing a book, that's a physical experience. That's tremendous. But I think I like that as it fits into something larger.

Yeah, you know, the nature part is, I think, something I thought a lot about. And as I was getting ready to talk with you, I asked a friend of mine named Stephanie Stewart. I said, you have a brilliant way to talk about the importance of time in nature. And I said, give me your words. And here's what she said. She said, Spending time in nature helps us connect to ourselves differently. It widens our gaze and allows us to see beyond what is right in front of us. It is stimulating for all of our senses, which increases our awareness of our body, helps to calm spiraling thoughts, and brings our focus to the present moment. Spending time in nature helps us to recognize that we as individuals are part of a much greater whole, which allows us to transcend our problems and let go. And I thought, "Right on." I think— I think I have only a few fly fishing experiences, but I couldn't have articulated it that way, but I think there is something so powerful just standing in a stream for hours.

Yeah.

It's hard to explain it. Or from my perspective, it's been hard to sell that. You have to just do it or feel it. But you do such a great job in the book of helping people feel it without necessarily being there. Yet.

Thank you. Well, I think when you're fishing, you, you're both highly focused on a task, so that involves concentration and self-containment and a keen awareness to what's going around you. That's the immediate part. But you're also, as you say, you're connected to nature in a larger way. I mean, for the most basic thing about fishing is that it's outside, right? You're away from your phone, hopefully. You're away from, in a way, your other life, your life of commitments and 9 to 5 and everything else that goes along, the social media scroll and everything that kind of fights for our attention. You're away from that. I think now more than when I was a boy and it seemed like very logical to go out onto a lake where our cabin was and fish, that made a lot of sense. Now for me to fish, I'm making a decision in opposition of maybe even being productive the way we would normally describe it. So it's a conscious act to, to leave New York City where I am and go to the Catskills or go to Patagonia and try to get away from no responsibilities and deadlines and things like that. But it's also a connection connection to the natural world where you feel inconsequential in a way that I find useful and important. And I don't mind that feeling. I really like it, in fact. And to know that you're fitting into larger patterns in the world, all sorts of things, whether it's the weather, whether it's what the fish are doing, whether it's insect hatches, the more you fish, the more you're aware of those things. And also the more you're aware of how little you have to control. Even the greatest anglers, which I certainly don't count myself among them, the ones I know have a very keen awareness of the lack of control that they have, which I admire very much.

Mm, okay. So one of my favorite quotes of yours early in the book, you— this is, I think, on page 3— you say, standing in a stream on a weekday afternoon in late spring, casting to trout is a more conscious decision. I still do it for the sheer joy of being outside, of concentrating, of the doubts and rewards of being connected to a fish, of landing and releasing it. Fishing offers an internal reward And that personal satisfaction is enough. This is the same reason why a good lunch, a proper 3-hour lunch where wine is ordered by the bottle, not the glass, is so rare and rewarding. This escape is not exactly illicit, but it certainly takes you outside the course of events of the day.

I always sound like— when you read it, it's very convincing.

That's how I heard it in my head. I thought, "I need more of those rare and special lunches." And maybe I loved the idea that a weekday fishing experience too is different.

You know a lot of productive, successful people, and I know a lot of them too. And I'm always interested to see how they conduct their lives and impressed by it. All the great things they do and accomplish, and I'm all for that. And I also like sometimes to take a little break from that. And I think People have a really hard time, especially Americans in my experience, to, to taking time away from what they consider to be productive. And I think maybe in the last, over the last 2 years with everything that's been going on, people had a reconnection to things they were passionate about, when that could be baking or reading Russian novels or fly fishing or sailing or doing something else, gardening. And I think one of the things I try to argue for in the book, and that I believe really strongly is that it's important to have something like those types of passions in your life. And they don't happen by accident. You have to cultivate them. You have to create space to do them. And then hopefully you get better at them. And there's something very satisfying about making a soufflé rise or making a good cast on a fly rod. And I think people— it's not going to happen by accident. You're not going to just have a passion and a hobby and a skill and get better at it. You've got to make time for it. And I think I like it when people do that, and I'm always impressed, even if it's something I wouldn't do myself. I like it when people become very interested in watercolors or whatever else it is in their lives, but they make the space for it. Exactly.

You know, they allow for it and they tell themselves it's okay.

Yeah, I usually find out the first time you do it, people, whatever it is, people are going to say, well, that's a little, um, drastic. Once they know, you know, the first time you tell them you're going fishing, they're like, what's going on here? The second time you're like, okay, I guess that's just By the third time, it's like, it's your thing, and people are used to it, you know? Mm-hmm.

I have to say, one of my favorite parts of the book is early on when you're talking about Dave and Carter. Yeah. Your sort of fishing mentors.

Yes.

As you read that part of the book, I felt like, "Man, you are so fortunate to have had these guys in your life." And yet, you didn't take to them when you were a young kid. You came to them sort of later. Can you talk a little bit about them?

Yes, of course. I mean, you're very sensitive the way you just set it up. I'll be going to my family's cabin in Wisconsin next week where I've spent summers my entire life. And on that lake in Wisconsin, and my friends of my grandparents, two men, Carter and Dave, who you mentioned, were two truly fantastic anglers. And they each kind of represented a different side of angling. One was passion, that would be Dave, and one was reason, which was Carter. And my grandfather, himself a law professor who believed if you wanted to do something well, go right to the experts, always said knowing that I like to fish, I should go fish with Dave and Carter. But I was, you know, 12 years old or 13, and I didn't really— I was both intimidated by them but also didn't necessarily think spending time with my grandfather's friends was high on the list of a young teenager. Finally, when I got my act together, when I was probably 20 or 22, I went out fishing with both of them, and that's one of the greatest experiences of my life. They were both, I think in some sense, they had somewhat alienated members of their own family to a certain extent. Fishing is a strong obsession that sometimes doesn't go directly from father to son or uncle to nephew. And they were happy to have me with them. And so we would go usually on canoe trips down small rivers in Wisconsin fishing for smallmouth bass. And they were truly extraordinary anglers who kind of taught me not by telling me what to do, but just I could observe them and they would give me advice in a way that over time made more and more sense. It's really a privilege to do that. And also, of course, the foolishness of me not starting earlier. I should have been out there when I was 13. I would be much better much sooner. But that's another part of human frailty, or at least my own frailty of not diving in sooner. But that, I still consider it to be very lucky for me to have spent time with them. And that's kind of the heart of the book, the personal side of the book, how it begins.

Yeah, well, I have to say that I found it touching, that entire section. And it was really— it sets up, you know, the book, you visit different locations But your experiences are always sort of informed, I think, by your teachers and your mentors. And I couldn't help but think about when you would interact with guides and your— I don't want to say this the wrong way, but sometimes it comes across as, you know, do I want to impress the guide? I don't want to let the guide down. Is the guide looking at me knowing I don't know what I'm doing right now? There's a lot of self-talk in the book about what in the heck is the guide thinking? And in some ways, you know, Dave and Carter were your original— or Carter and Dave, as you said it, were your original guides. So it's just a really— the way you set it up and the way the book flows, I just think there's such a beautiful rhythm to it. And do you find— am I right or wrong in this guide-fisherman relationship?

It's a huge relationship, I think, and something I'm endlessly fascinated by. I think when you're young or starting out fishing, you're more self-conscious of what the guide thinks of you. And you want to make a good impression. And I'll just be here to tell you that every guide knows everything about you within 5 minutes. So don't bother trying to use any jargon, don't bother trying to show off. They know everything about you. So just get beyond that. I think when you get older, when you fish more, I think it's important to be honest with the guide about the way you like to fish, how you enjoy it. And then guide is, you know, the guide, and then the angler is the sport, right? So the angler-sport relationship is a little bit fraught because if you're struggling, often the angler blames the guide when it's the last person whose fault it is, is the guide, right? Everyone wants to do the same thing. And this is this kind of this intense— especially if you've gone a long way, you're all the way in Patagonia or the Bahamas and you're not catching fish, and you look around for someone to blame and there's the guide right there. That's not the right person to blame, of course. But I love, I love guides because they're really good at something I want to be good at, and I try to learn something from them. And I think it's important when you're with a guide that you are open to learning from them because it's really a great chance to both fish better, but also to be around true experts who understand their part of the world amazingly well. They're probably on the water 200 days a year, 250 days a year. That's an incredible resource, incredible amount of knowledge. And these guys are usually pretty funny and interesting and have great stories. So I love guides and I love the different ways they are in different places because they're culturally different. You know, Bahamian guys are generally a little quieter. Argentinian guys are, you know, maybe backcountry skiers. They're very dashing guys. Know, guys in Montana probably seen all sorts of different types of people too, so you can learn all sorts of different things. Maine guides are sort of stoic in my experience. Canadian guides, they kind of— they gave me a harder time because I was struggling to catch a salmon. That's another story. But be good to your guides and they're going to be good to you in any case.

You know, a sweet, sweet moment in the book— there's a couple of these, but there's one I'm thinking of in particular that you say, "Years later, I've seen other people catch their first fish and enjoy the sense of recognition in their eyes." So that's what this is about.

Well, you know, it's funny, when I started taking my friends out, helping them learn how to fish, all sorts of phrases came out of my mouth that I was never expecting, I didn't know were in me. I started talking like a guide, and I started using some of the same clichés: "Keep your rod tip up," "Keep your eyes on the water," all those sorts of things. I don't know if it's what people who kind of coach their teenagers in baseball start imitating a manager, what they think is a manager, and they just sort of transform themselves, but When I started taking people fishing, I didn't recognize myself. I was so invested in what they were doing and wanted them to catch a fish so badly. And when they finally did, I mean, I had never been so excited. It was way more exciting than when I caught a fish myself. And I was kind of shocked at it. Then you realize, of course, that's part of the knowledge that Carter and Dave handed to me, then you hope to hand down to someone else, or just in the simplest terms, share a moment with someone, you know, when they're very happy. Mm.

Yeah. Awesome.

It's funny though, it comes upon you in a way you're not ready for. It never occurred to me that I would get so much satisfaction. And I mean, talk about taking the long view, then you realize certain things that benefits you had from the way Carter maybe looked at me when I was younger. I'd look at someone else that way.

Yeah, beautiful. You have a, you have a very good sense of humor. And, uh, connecting to this idea of parenting, I really love this section where you say A trout wants to do things, and you can allow it to do some of those things and not others. I suspect this is how it feels to be the parent of a teenager. And, and I have the deep knowledge of somebody with no children. You allow the fish to seem in control without it really being in control. Your authority is hidden, but in fact you're guiding it. When I fight a fish now, I know what it is trying to do, and I know what I'm trying to do. And that doesn't mean I don't lose fish, but it does mean I usually lose them on my own terms. I like that section. That section, I thought, you know, especially the deep knowledge of somebody with no children. You know, it is funny as you try to sort of control the uncontrollable, you know, what happens. And I really love the way you depict, you know, sort of gaining knowledge, and at the same time as you gain knowledge, realizing that there's just some stuff you can't manipulate.

Thank you. That— it's so true though, as we— I'm sure you have that feeling when almost the more you read, the more you realize there is for you to read, that you'll never get even— it doesn't get closer to the finish line. The finish line keeps moving further away. And I think anything that we love, whether it's art or the natural world, will always have a certain amount of mystery. And I think that's a good thing. I think too often we try to solve something, we try to get— we try to unlock a key to something and move beyond it, but It's a— if you go back to your favorite novels, if you go back to The Great Gatsby, you may think you understood it when you read it when you were 20. It's going to have a different meaning when you're 40 and different when you're 60. And I think that's a sign of good art, and I think that's a sign of a good passion. And to be curious that way and to understand that certain things are unknowable, I think that's actually a strong position to be in. Um, it doesn't mean you're not ambitious, or it doesn't mean you're not trying to learn and become a better angler or become more sensitive to art or the natural world. I think it's, you know, the very small beginning of wisdom when you understand there are things you're not going to grasp or that they're going to evolve over time.

There's a distinction in the book between sort of— I'll use this, my language— posers and, and the real ones.

Sure.

And there is sort of, it feels like, a hierarchy of, uh, fly fishing pure purity or I don't know, just an altruistic way to sort of go about fly fishing, and then you're sort of cheapening it as you go sort of down in using different techniques. How important is that to you, and how do you wrestle with where you land on this sort of continuum of purity?

Well, this is a huge question. I mean, I think— I think there are many different types of archetypal anglers. And so that's one category of, you know, there are people like Dave and Carter who were, had been fishing in the '50s and '60s, kind of before there was a big angling boom. And then there are people who are all taking videos of what they catch now and kind of interact with the sport in a different way. And you can get caught up in all sorts of different hierarchies there. And I don't, you know, different people are going to fish different ways and that's just reality. But as far as technical ways we do things, I think one thing that's always interested me is how patient are we and how do we want to try to catch a fish. And if you fly fish, you're not doing it the easy way. So already you've made a certain distinction. It would be like driving a 1978 BMW. If you see someone driving that car, you know something about them. And it's that they're not trying to get from A to B as fast as possible. And I usually find that appealing, that they like this car, that they have some connection to it. And the fact that it doesn't go more than 60 miles an hour. Is part of the appeal, or that it spends half its time in the shop. That person could probably be a fly angler. And so the purest— technically, the kind of traditional way to fish would be a dry fly, which means it's on the surface during a hatch, when that means they're kind of insects on the surface, and catching a fish that you see, casting to a fish that's rising to these flies, and you imitating it and trying to fool it into taking your fly. And that's a difficult thing to do. I think many people would say that's the pinnacle of the sport. But there are other ways Most of what fish and trout in particular eat is underwater, so you can kind of go down to get them, we'd say subsurface on a kind of a nymph. And then if that's not working, then you could go and kind of yank something that looks sort of like a minnow, which is called the Woolly Bugger, which is very evil, but effective. And I have friends who will only cast with dry flies because they consider that to be the true art and they want to challenge themselves that way. And I have other friends who they want action. They don't really care if it's poetic or not. They want to have a fish on the line. And so they'll put the Woolly Bugger on. You know, sometimes you feel kind of righteous and pure and want to try the dry fly, and after about half an hour of that, if that's not working, you want to be a little bit less righteous, and you might tie on a nymph, and then you might get a little less righteous after that, and sometimes by the end of the day you're on a woolly bugger. But these distinctions in approach always fascinate me because it kind of tells you something about yourself and how patient you can be, what mood you're in, who you're with. I mean, if you're with a beginner, you want to catch a fish, you don't particularly necessarily care how. But then as you fish a lot, maybe you want to challenge yourself more. And knowing that something's difficult when it finally works out is satisfying in its own very particular way. And you can test your skills that way. And that's another part of fishing when you do it for many years.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You ask the question in the book, do you prioritize artistry or results? And I think that's such a simple way, such a clean way to put the question to anyone. You know, one thing that's interesting in The Optimist is you can't really tell what your favorite spot is. And remind me, how many, how many places?

So there are 8 chapters.

8 chapters, yeah.

And so it starts in Wisconsin, you know, where that— where I started fishing, and then goes to Montana, which is kind of, you know, the spiritual home. Then the Bahamas for bonefishing on the flats. Then Patagonia, the long pilgrimage. Then right here in New York and Jamaica Bay. For striped bass right next to JFK Airport, up to Canada, Maine, and then it ends in England. I can't believe I remember all that.

Yeah, good job, good job.

Thanks.

But do you have a favorite?

Well, I don't want to get too philosophical on you though, it's probably too late for that. But I, you know, that again is different at different times in your life. I mean, I think where I fish the most is in the Catskills, so about 2.5 hours or 3 hours from, from where I live. And, and that you have a very special relationship to— I call your home water because you're there a lot and you see a change from day to day and season to season. And so that It's a very intimate relationship, and that is great. And you learn a lot from the differences from one day to another, and you're always learning more about it. I love the Catskills, and I love my favorite stream there. To my surprise, when I went to the Bahamas the first time, I was shocked that I had been to the Bahamas but never fished on the flats. And the flats are an incredible, I guess, seascape, you would say. You're looking in very shallow water, miles in every direction. It's just you and mangroves. The most horizontal, extraordinary elemental place, and the tide is changing slightly, so you see different reflection from the sun as the water goes up or down. I was really moved when I was there. I was affected in a way I did not expect. I felt really alone, and, and you couldn't hear anything in you except for the wind. I love that. For the last few years, I've really felt a great connection there. And so you're usually walking in the shallow water looking for a bonefish, just you and a guide who walks very quietly and helps you see these fish. And I was really felt, especially living in New York City, which is such a vertical place, to go to a place that's all horizon in every direction is just incredibly wonderful to me. And having said that, I also— I mean, going to Patagonia is usually the highlight of my year. I love to go to Buenos Aires for a few days, a truly great city, and then to fly down to Patagonia is just extraordinary. I mean, you can't— I just feel happy to be alive when I'm there. And like I mentioned, they make these incredible lunch and You're fishing until late at night, and just their approach to life is really wonderful in these incredible landscapes. And to be there is, is a really special experience. And you can't go wrong with any of these places. I, I feel a different connection to them at different— also at different times in my life too, because you want to— maybe you want to go further, maybe you want to do something more intimate and close to home. So people always ask me for a favorite, and I guess I am surprised though how much I do love the Bahamas. And I think for people who've only fished and trout fished in America, I would consider going bonefishing in the Bahamas. I think it's a really great kind of next step to do.

Plus rum.

Yes, exactly. I mean, a little, a little rum and, you know, whatever, Bob Marley and, uh, some conch fritters. And I mean, it's, it speaks for itself.

Okay, well, I want to highlight two spots where you say the long view. That really meant a lot to me. One is earlier on and one is at the very end, but at one point you say, "The water is the center of this universe and it dictates the rhythms of the day. Outfitting the drift boats, rigging up in good weather and bad, the days when the fish are everywhere and days when the fish will not turn on. Gas station coffee in the morning, then bad beer that tastes perfect after landing the first trout. The weeks turn into seasons." a wider perspective, and ultimately the long view. When it no longer is about one fish or one good day, it's the life.

Oh, so sweet!

How do you do that? How does that happen?

You know, you've— it was an interesting thing writing about fishing. I was reluctant to do it for a long time because I'm not— you know, there are people who are true experts who are who work for Orvis, and this is what their guides— and they are professionals and they instruct people in the best techniques. And that's not me. I try to enjoy things and put them in some perspective, and that's enjoying the culture and the food and the guides and the clothes and the drinking and the travel. And all that together are the things I care about. And of course, the fishing. And so I think at a certain point, I started to write a little bit about fishing apologetically. I wrote for some magazine. And some websites. And then finally, I just thought, you know, this matters to me. It was a step to admit that, the same way as it was a step to admit fishing was a huge part of my life. Because it— I mean, my family kind of rolls their eyes sometimes, or my girlfriend doesn't know what she thinks about all of it when she says, wait, you're going on another trip? And I've said, didn't I mention that? I was sure I mentioned it to you when you were half asleep the other day. I mentioned it. And I think admitting you care about something is a strong thing. And I think in writing the book allowed me to articulate some things that I maybe hadn't thought about a lot. And then it was an interesting time to do it because of everything that's happened in the last year and a half when you really— we could think about the things that matter to us because we either couldn't do them or we couldn't be with the people we wanted to be with or in the places we wanted to be. So it all— I don't want to say it all worked out. It's an evolving situation, the complicated way we live. And I just feel lucky to be able to write about something I care about.

Well, you do such a beautiful job of highlighting, I think, the humility that's required to really operate at the fishing level you operate on. You say at one point, "The more you're on a stream, the more you realize how much there is to know. I take a longer view. There's no other way." Mm. And, you know, I think that's what's awesome about the way you use that phrase that connects to the way I use it is, in many ways, it's about humility and accepting and dealing with and embracing uncertainty. You know, that you are getting better and better at your craft, and yet still, you have to stay curious and humble. And the chase and the pursuit of this whole thing, and especially the pursuit of it with people you care about and people you love, and watching people who have never had the same level of joy by catching their first fish, being a part of that, being a teacher, It's all such a beautiful mashup of, you know, sort of wonderful observations. And I don't know, I just feel grateful that you took the time to put this in the world, 'cause it's really, really a lovely thing.

That's so sweet of you to say. I really appreciate it. It's strange when you write a book in private. It's a very private act, and then you kind of turn it over to an editor, and then you lose a certain amount of control, though I work with people I really like. And then all of a sudden, it's in the world and you've like lost complete control over it and you don't know what's going to happen or how people are going to connect to it or if it— and if you write a book about fishing, you're almost compelled to say it's not just about fishing, it's about life, it's about other things. I've said this about 500 times now. In some sense, it is just very much about fishing, but of course, it's about these other things. I think one thing that's great about fishing is that it is a humbling— the way the book is set up, like we said, each chapter is a different place, but it's also a different fish and a kind of different skill or virtue required to catch that fish. And the more you fish, if you try to do something new, you're going to be humbled again. I mean, even if you just fish for trout, you'll be humble. But then if you try to catch an Atlantic salmon or a bonefish, you're learning new skills. And I think I'm coming to terms with— even as you get better, in some sense, you're still coming to terms with what you don't know. I think that's something I enjoy much more than I did when I was younger.

Yeah. Thank you for spending time talking with me. I bought a number of copies of the book, and for the first 20 people who email me after listening to this podcast, I'll send you a copy of The Optimist. And David, where else can people learn about you or see you or track you?

Well, I have a newsletter called The Contender, which has been a surprisingly exciting project. I've been doing it for about a year now. So you can come have a look at The Contender. You can either subscribe for free or lock you in for a little bit of money. I also host a podcast called Central Division, and, uh, that's one way to get my thoughts on travel and fishing and style. And I'm, I'm on the internet somewhere. You can find, uh, me on Instagram and, and the Twitter. And then I have a website called The Contender as well, where a lot of stories I write appear.

Well, thank you. I really appreciate you taking time.

It's been great to talk to you. I really enjoyed it.

Hi, Longview Hello, listeners. I'm Buddy Reisinger, a longtime member of the Hill Investment Group team that helps translate Matt's thinking into action for our clients. If you like what you've heard and want to learn more, I encourage you to go to our website hillinvestmentgroup.com and sign up for a complimentary call or meeting. Matt doesn't dispense cookie-cutter advice on the podcast because each of you is unique. So go to hillinvestmentgroup.com, Schedule a meeting and let's start talking. We can't wait to hear your story.

Do you carve out time to be in nature? Please note the information shared in this podcast is not intended as advice. The intent is to share meaningful experiences. I am likely not your advisor, nor wealth manager, nor financial planner, and my opinions are my own and not necessarily shared by Hill Investment Group. Investing involves risk. Consult a professional before implementing an investment strategy. Thank you.