15. Shopify's Shimona Mehta on the social shopping revolution

It's time to geek out. Hello and welcome to another Geek Out with Matt Navarra, with me, Matt Navarra, and me, Martin SFP Bryant.

Now it seems like aside from a Clubhouse clone, the other thing every self-respecting social platform needs these days is shopping features.

Social shopping is a huge opportunity for businesses in 2021 as the likes of Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, and Pinterest have added features like shops and ads that let you buy products directly.

One of the companies powering the social shopping revolution is Shopify. Even if you don't really know much about the company, I'm sure you've heard the name.

This week we're talking to Shimona Mehta, Shopify's Managing Director for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. She joined us on Twitter Spaces to talk about how and why social shopping is suddenly such a big deal, and how platforms and sellers are using it, and where it's going to go in the future.

Yes, if you like to keep on top of these kinds of trends, this will be really interesting interesting and a really useful conversation to listen to.

Indeed. So here's what happened when we spoke to Shopify's Shimona Mehta. So hello, Shimona. Can you just talk to us a little bit about you and Shopify and give us a bit of an introduction to everything that we need to know about you?

Sure. Thanks for having me, Matt. I'm excited to be geeking out on this topic with you. For those I haven't met, my name is Shimona. As Matt said, I'm the managing director for EMEA at Shopify. I'm originally from— hopefully, you can all tell by my my accent. I'm not actually British, although I live in London now. I've been here for a few years, but I'm born and raised originally in Canada, grew up in Toronto, and made the move over here a couple of years ago to help build out our, our EMEA business for Shopify. Absolutely.

And you must be pretty busy because at the moment this stuff is just everywhere. It's, it's the kind of the thing that all the platforms are doing, isn't it? So it's a busy time at Shopify, I would imagine.

Uh, it has been busy. I mean, it's, it's been busy for, for a few years now, but particularly over the last 12 to 15 months as seen, I think as everyone's noticed, we've had a decade's worth of e-commerce growth and trend shifting happen almost overnight within just a few months.

Absolutely. So I think let's just wind it back to make it understandable for anybody that doesn't know about— nearly did it— Spotify— Shopify. So maybe if you could just tell us a little bit about what Shopify does, because there's lots of people who will have heard the name, and lots of people will understand basics around social commerce and social shopping. Break it down for us. What does Shopify actually do?

Yeah, we help merchants, entrepreneurs who are just getting started, or really large businesses that are continuing to look to grow, to provide them, you know, all of the tools that they need in order to be able to run their businesses through every channel possible, whether it's social, like I know we're going to talk about today, their owned platforms, it's, you know, offline and brick-and-mortar stores, and to be able to manage their business in the background, you know, fairly seamlessly. It makes it makes it really easy for someone like me who, you know, although I work at Shopify and at a tech company, I'm not the most tech-savvy person. It makes it really easy for someone like me to decide that I want to start a business and to be able to get that up and running in just a few hours and start to reach customers.

And so it's not just a checkout facility for people through social. This is a lot bigger than that. It's actually all of the functionality of kind of the stock and management and the product management in your kind of catalog of goods for online. It's all bits of it, I guess.

Yeah. We think of ourselves as that retail operating system for merchants to be able to manage every aspect of their business end to end.

And what other companies are in this space? Because there's Shopify.

But what—

I know it's not nice to talk about competitors. But I guess to help everybody understand the companies that are operating in this area, who else is doing stuff like this?

You're right. It's hard to name a few. I think there's over 1,100 companies out there that are— e-commerce platforms out there that are offering something in this space in one way, shape, perform. So you might, you know, you might look at some, some platforms in the space like a BigCommerce or Salesforce Commerce Cloud that are, you know, trying to do similar things.

Absolutely. Martin?

Yeah, so if we kind of move things into the social space a bit more, Shopify, I think, has been partnered with Facebook since 2015, but it suddenly feels now like the idea of shopping via social media is everywhere. So just so everyone knows, what do we mean when we say social shopping?

Yeah, social shopping is, to me, actually, is so much fun to talk about, actually. Do you mind, actually, let's go back a little bit and let's talk about how we even got to here. Is that OK with you?

Yeah, absolutely.

Amazing. Because I think that it's really important to talk about some of the power dynamics and shifts that we've seen in shopping and in how consumers discover brands, which has really led to what social shopping is and has become and is going to continue to become. I actually like to start, you know, you go back a decade ago when, you know, all of us used to shop solely in physical stores. I grew up, like I said, in suburban Toronto. I used to go to a mall. That was the place to go to meet your friends and to shop. But that was how I discovered brands, right? And the power dynamic at that time was the brands and the retailers themselves, because you had to go to them. Your experience depended on you walking into their store. You know, the, the The options available to you, the inventory that they had, the return, you know, the return things, all of that happened in the store. But go back to about, you know, what is it, 2007-ish, and all of us got, you know, a smartphone in our hands. That was really the moment, Matt and Martin, that the power dynamic really started to shift because all of a sudden the power was in the hand of the consumers. We were no longer going shopping. We now shop all the time because it's in our hands. And what that really did was open up to, you know, someone like me. If I wanted to discover really cool, interesting independent brands before, I had to physically go downtown Toronto to that really cool street, Queen Street West. I know every city has one of those where all those really great independent brands were to find and discover something and walk in and see what they had. Now, in the power of my hand, I can start to discover that and figure out where really great unique brands were that spoke to me and to my personal style. And so optionality opened up to us as consumers, right? Our attention spans, you know, got lower. Our expectations went up in who these brands were, in what they offered, in the experiences they created. And, and so that, that shift I think is really important for all of us. I know everyone here probably already knows that, you're all fellow geeks, but, you know, I think it's really important to talk about that shift and what it's led to, because what we've seen today in retailers that are either thriving or struggling is those, I think, that were maybe more resistant to accepting this power dynamic and change, right, versus those who accepted that this shift has happened and therefore needed to start to adapt to it. And of course, we saw with Facebook, right, they started off solely as a social network. But those social platforms realized, obviously, there's a huge opportunity, right? They had these captive, engaged audiences. They have all the eyeballs. Those amazing daily active users, particularly one like Facebook. We saw them back in 2007 launch their first marketplace, that Craigslist-type marketplace, the peer-to-peer one, which was really great. That was step 1, where they enabled that peer-to-peer social commerce, as I call it. But you start to fast forward now to the last 5 years and we start to see Instagram launching its shoppable posts for brands and really elevating the social commerce offering to another level. They're really focused on aspirational influencer lifestyles with products and services easily attached to that, you know, helping to create conversion with a buyer. And that's really led to what we're seeing as social shopping today, which is remembering that, that consumers are shopping wherever they are and whatever platform they're using, they're looking to discover and engage with new brands, and they're looking to be inspired to make purchases through these platforms that they're already sitting on, right? Whether it's, you know, it's TikTok and the work that they're doing right now to really inspire, you know, to create inspiration. It's Pinterest where people go to create boards, again, to be inspired, whether it's Facebook or it's Instagram and the work that they're doing.

Right.

And so how big is social commerce right now? If we look at the market and maybe how it's going to grow in the coming years, what's your sense of that?

Yeah, let's talk about the growth because there's a few key trends I think that we should really— that are really, I think, game-changing for us to all be paying attention to, right? The first is Gen Z. They've played such an important role in social commerce or social shopping's explosion in popularity, right? They— those Gen Zers still enjoy physicality of the shopping, but we're starting to see a shift in expectation of experiences, and they're really interested in social commerce buying pathways. They are 2 to 3 more time— 2 to 3 times more likely to shop on social channels than anyone else. Although the growth is happening in other demographics as well. You know, we've seen in studies— I'm going to give you a couple of stats so that we talk a little bit about the trends and the growth that we're seeing. We've seen in a recent study, 83% of those browsing TikTok say that they're looking for trending content that inspires them to make a purchase. 83%! That's massive. People are going on these social sites not just to interact and engage with each other, but to really discover and engage with brands that are speaking to them in an authentic way that engages with them, that inspires them to then visit and to make a purchase. And then, of course, the other, you know, for us to take a look at to really understand where we're headed with social commerce, I think, is to look towards China. They're really leading the path with the social commerce charge, right? And more broadly, actually, you know, folks in Asia as well, you know, they're shopping through platforms much more often than, you know, we are here in the UK or in North America. You've got the popularity of WeChat, you know, social communication platform that they've, that they've all used. That's got, you know, a number of commerce integrations. And so when we take a look at, you know, e-commerce penetration in China is over 50% at this point, whereas it's only, you know, 30 to 35% penetration right now in the UK. You know, that's the shift that we're going towards as people more and more get comfortable with shopping online. They're shopping where they're at. They're discovering brands where they're at. And the smart brands are reaching out to those consumers and they're talking to them, right? I'm sure many people on the call today have recently made a purchase. I know I bought a weighted eye mask recently from an amazing Shopify merchant that I discovered who was actually out of California. As I was looking to help falling asleep, I was able to find that through Instagram and make my purchase. And I never would have found them if I was only looking in a mall close by to me.

And Suman, on that point you mentioned there about Asia, one of the things I was going to ask you about was your view as to what is it about about users and shoppers in Asia and the environment and the market in Asia that makes it so different and that shopping has really exploded there for some years now. But WeChat, you mentioned, is one of the big players in terms of the amount of things you can do with inside WeChat. It's kind of normalized, isn't it, in terms of that's kind of how they experience shopping through online. It's quite a normal thing for them to do. But it hasn't been so quick to take off in other countries outside of Asia. I wonder if you could give us a sense of what you think why that was.

Well, one of the things One of the things that we've seen, Matt, is they're a really mobile-heavy group of countries. So whether it's China, it's India, or any of the other Asian countries, they're really mobile first, and they've been quick to adapt with that. And so this is where WeChat comes into play, right? And this is where that, again, that power dynamic of shopping in the moment where we're at and that comfort with comes into play and ensuring that, you know, all of those convenient payment options are available through the convenience of WeChat or these other social platforms. Platforms that they're using on a daily basis are available. So it's very much been that, that comfort with, that propensity with, that, that usage of mobile. That's mobile first in Asia more than anywhere else in the world. I think that's, that's really helped them to drive that quickly. But we're seeing that growth here, right? Like we've seen, we've seen that penetration here in the UK grow from 30 to 35%. So, you know, we're not that far off, particularly in the UK. And we get more and more comfortable, especially as we take a look at, you know, where the dollars are, that Gen Z audience that continues to grow and look and use social, I think we're going to continue to see that grow.

So what are some of your favorite examples or some examples of brands and influencers that you've seen in recent months and years that have been really leveraging the social shopping features and the opportunity it's presented? Which companies have you seen use them well and have been effective with this so far?

How much time you got, Matt? This is my favorite thing to talk about, is some of our merchants and what they do. I get so inspired by their resilience, particularly over the last year in, you know, really quickly shifting how they're, you know, reaching and engaging consumers when everything changed around them. I wanna share a couple stories actually of some of the, you know, a couple of smaller merchants that have just, like I said, really inspired me. One is Omololo Jewelry, two sisters out of London who, you know, decided to start a business selling West African jewelry on the side. You know, one is a speech pathologist, one was a lawyer, and they decided to start this business out of their home. And when COVID hit last year, you know, they were selling, you know, almost exclusively through Stockist. And so when COVID hit last year, you know, all of that revenue stream was gone. They really quickly pivoted and started to leverage TikTok as a really great channel to, you know, find and engage an entire new consumer set that was really looking to be inspired. And what happened with that is not only did they replace their entire revenue that they were doing previously to COVID, they actually grew over 300% over the holiday. Season and actually started to expand globally. Because again, that optionality that consumers have in the palm of their hands, you can now discover brands wherever they are. So continuing to serve and to reach their existing customers in their local community here in the UK, as well as being able to grow internationally. And I've been— and I'm so proud of them. I've had a chance to talk to them a bunch over the last few months as they've been growing. And from being a speech pathologist and a lawyer to now both of them actually full-time switching over to their business. Their side gigs become their full-time hustle now. To me, and again, they're both in their 20s, it's so inspiring. Another really great story is Lounge Underwear. Again, another great UK story that Dan and Mel, who started the business themselves, fully bootstrapped with $1,000 in their hand just a few years ago. If anyone's been following their story, they've just opened up a gorgeous new headquarters in the UK. They're employing and giving back into the economy and employing hundreds of people and, you know, turning over $45 and $50 million in revenue and turning a profit over the last few years. And they've done that, you know, leveraging Instagram, leveraging TikTok, and, you know, leveraging micro and macro influencers to, you know, to really be able to tell their story, right? To tell the story of inclusivity and body types and making, you know, and making that— making their brand accessible to all. It's, it's been actually super inspiring to see them, again, do that fully bootstrapped, no business experience, working class, and building into this incredibly fast-growing brand here in the UK.

Martin. Is there anything in your experience that sells best when it comes to social platforms? Because you've mentioned a lot about fashion, accessories, things like that. Is that the sweet spot for social selling? And is there anything that people should probably just not even try to sell via social shopping?

No, I think— Martin, great question. The thing that I think is most important is someone who has an authentic story to tell. They're not just trying to push a commodity product, but they've got a story that they're telling. They're engaging with consumers that need it authentically. I've talked to— I know I've given you a couple of fashion examples, but Foxwater is another great example and a company that's really inspired me. Scott Dixon founded them just a few years ago. I think it was 2016. 2016 out of Glasgow, and he was just searching for a way to cure his acid reflux symptoms. And he found that alkaline water was going to be a potential, a potential temporary fix. So he saw a gap in the market for that, for, you know, really great water filtration that is sustainable, developed a product within 9 months. They launched the first iteration of their product using Shopify. And, uh, and last year when COVID hit, you know, their product was deemed, uh, non-essential by Amazon. So they lost that entire stream, they quickly, again, pivoted to using TikTok in order to reach customers, talking about their story. Why did they start this product? Who is it for? They've boosted sales by, I think, 40%, 50%. And they've started to expand internationally for the first time.

So—

Isn't it— but one of the things as well, though, is with this sort of stuff, people are not going to buy a car. And they're not going to buy a house. They're not going to buy some ridiculous things like that because of the scale and size of them. And there must be other products and other sorts of shops and things that— for example, I can't imagine people buying certain things that are more kind of personal items or health-related because maybe, you know, they don't feel comfortable transacting in a social environment, even though there's the privacy and the security around it is no different from probably an online retailer. There's certain products that people either need to touch and feel or they need to sort of have more time to sort of think about and possibly are not impulse purchases. So I guess there are quite a lot of things that this works really well for, isn't there? But then there's other stuff this is probably not the best.

I think that I think there's some verticals or industries or product types, Matt, that have solved for this in a much easier way. But I'd suggest actually, if you go back 5 or 6 years ago, I might have said I really need to touch and feel a product or a lipstick or something in a store before I bought it. But I no longer need to because of the convenience of being able to discover the brand online, the convenience of being able to return it really quickly, or to be able to go I'll visit the store as well and check out and try out some of the products before I buy them at home. You know, a couple of years ago, I might not have thought that I'd be buying sofas online either, but last year through COVID, I didn't have a choice. I furnished my new flat here in London entirely through an online experience. I purchased sofas and beds and all of those things, which in the past, I think, you know, I probably would have said, I need to go and sit on that sofa in the showroom. Room, but we've got technology that allows us to start to see it in the space. You've got really great customer service and last mile where people will come in and give you guarantees that if it doesn't work for you that they'll take it back. One of the armchairs I bought was from an incredible Shopify merchant called Maker Son. They found such a phenomenal way of engaging me. I discovered them on Instagram. I got to check out all of their swatches and figure out what's going to work in my space, but now they, they created a really great integrated experience for me. They couldn't have people come to a showroom, so they had a sofa set up in a, in a huge cube van, and they actually brought the showroom to me. So I made almost all of my purchasing decisions online. I connected with them, I discovered with them, you know, through Instagram. I got to quickly try out this, the sofa in a van right outside my house because they came to me. Purchased it through the POS right there, and then they delivered it to me a few weeks later. All of that done through COVID. And so these are the experiences that we can create. Some, yes, fully solved much easier than others. But I think we've got a lot of industries that are starting to realize that consumers want to discover, engage with, learn about brands before they purchase them online.

Do you think, possibly controversial statement to say, but shopping through social compared to, say, going to the website of, say, I don't know, let's talk about Nike. And they, you know, you can buy some of their clothing and apparel through Instagram versus going through their shop. The experience of going through their online retail shop and the kind of stuff that they can do on their website, which is really rich in lots of different media, lots of clever things that they, because it's been around a lot longer. So the experience of buying through them online, through their online shop is well-developed, whereas something like buying it through their Instagram kind of shop, has a far more limited experience. It's not maybe quite as exciting and as sexy as buying it through there. Would you accept that that could be true, or do you think that's not the case?

I think what the best brands are doing right now, Matt, is— and this is the important part about thinking about a multichannel strategy and social shopping being such an important part of that— is really deeply understanding your customer's buying journey, right? Where are they engaging with you, and how how, right? And so you'll have potentially, you know, a sports apparel brand where you likely want to drive them to their, your own sites. You can teach them about your products and all the great technology of whether it's the leggings or the shoes or anything like that. But they might be looking to discover you and, you know, your latest, you know, fashion launch or your, you know, your fall launch and the new styles on Instagram, right? Maybe they want to take a look at, you know, influencers and athletes that are attached to your brand and hear about them and understand their stories through TikTok and through really great authentic videos. And then yes, maybe you want to convert them through the own site, but remember that social commerce is, is an all-encompassing thing, right? It's, it's not just about the transaction, right? It's not just about, about that. It's about where we as consumers are discovering, engaging, getting inspired by, and making purchasing decisions. Decisions. Some of that's going to happen directly on the social site itself. Some of them is going to be a brand deciding they want to pull them into the own site to complete the conversion and continue to teach someone about the product.

Absolutely. And most of the major social networks have been leaning into shopping and creating shopping experiences for the last couple of years, some, some more so than others. And why do you get a sense of why that is now compared to maybe a few years back? And is it more more about just that what customers and consumers want is pulling them that way? Or do you think they're creating the environment or creating this demand for people to shop through social? Which is it that's paying more of an effect?

Kind of a chicken and egg thing, right? Yeah. No, I really do. I come back to our story around the power shift. And I do think it's about these social platforms being really smart about knowing that they've got these engaged eyeballs. And it's about brands realizing that they have to continue to raise the bar on how they engage with consumers because we have very, you know, we have very short attention spans now, right? And we have high expectations of what brands offer us, whether it's the, you know, the value that they're offering, how we connect with them, the experiences that they're creating for us. And so if we're gonna spend as many hours a day as any of us do on social, I don't know how many of you have recently checked your social stats on your phone, mine gets a little bit scary. Uh, when you take a look at the rabbit holes I go down. So if we think about like where we're spending all of our time outside of work, um, particularly as we're trapped in our homes during lockdowns, you know, we're a captive audience that's looking to engage and connect with brands. And so the, the smart platforms are smart enough to realize and take advantage of that and to, to capitalize on that and connect with us because we're looking looking for it, right? It's not just about, you know, it's not just about the platforms creating that. You know, what we've seen is, you know, folks like you and I are looking for brands on there. We're looking to discover, we're looking to go down the rabbit hole and connect with these brands.

Absolutely.

Martin?

Yeah, and Shopify works with Facebook, it works with Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, et cetera. But is there any particular social platform you think is really, you know, leading the way when it comes to shopping and, If we look at just the different ways that different platforms work, is there a particular kind of platform that's best suited to shopping experiences?

They all, I think, have a different purpose depending on the audience and how they're engaging with customers, Martin. You know, what we've seen as an example with like Pinterest, you know, they look to inspire folks, right? You know, people go to Pinterest in order to be inspired. About something they're trying to do, whether it's planning their wedding or, you know, they're gonna redecorate their home and they look to be inspired for ideas there, but they also then look to discover brands as they're thinking about a particular project, you know, that they want to do. When folks are on, folks that are engaging in TikTok, they're looking to be just inspired by social connection and fun and understand what a brand is all about. They actually are physically looking for brands brands for as a source of inspiration versus maybe a project that they're looking to run. And then the same on Instagram, right? We're looking to experience really beautiful, rich content. And so it's, it's how we use these platforms and brands really understanding how consumers like you and I engage on each of them. Betsy Johnson is a great example, right? They adjust how they're using different platforms because they understand how their consumers are interacting on them. On Facebook, they're telling the story and they're actually driving people to their own site. On Instagram, they're showing them beautiful, rich content that tells their story and shows off their clothing. Then on their site is where they're surfacing deals and creating the conversion really quickly in their own space. That's because they understand. Understand their customer's buying journey. And so there's no one particular platform that's, you know, gonna be better, you know, more obviously for every single brand. The point is to actually understand your customer deeply and then be able to capitalize how they're using, um, the platforms, uh, and, and how you tell your story in each of them.

So I think one of the things that we've talked about a lot in Geek Out is features, like new features, new things that the platforms are doing. And a lot of those new features that certainly I've seen in the last year or so have ended up being related to shopping. And so we've seen things with live streaming and we've seen things to do with different shopping tagging features. There's tons of them if you sit down and look at them. I just wondered from your point of view, from your perspective, when you've been looking around at some of your clients and some of the brands that are using shopping features, you know, which of the ones ones that have come up in the last year or two you've kind of thought is really clever or is actually quite smart, or you're finding people getting a lot of value from? You know, some of the ones that have been the newest ones have been tended to revolve around the live streaming aspect. Certainly TikTok and Instagram have added a lot there, but there are lots of others. I just wondered if you have any thoughts about those, those features.

Yeah. Uh, so I'm a little bit nerdy, um, and I might not have the sexiest answer to this, but what I, The ones that get me the most excited are those that have really built in great retargeting features. I know Pinterest has done that, a really great job with that one. I'm trying to remember the name of it now, dynamic retargeting to ensure that you're actually, particularly if you have really, really strict performance goals, It's high-intent targeting. You'll be able to re-engage pinners who've come to your page who've already expressed an interest in your products, right? Especially as we know that cost of acquisition continues to go up, anything that allows brands to really maximize every dollar they spend and really maximize every engagement with consumers is super exciting for me. Or, you know, with what we've done recently with TikTok is exciting as well, right? We've put the ability to be able to not just create the content and tag their products and then upload that content into TikToks, but again, to me, the most important part is the ability to then report on performance and engagement so that they can learn quickly and either adjust or double down on what is working for them. So to me, it's actually all about what allows brands to learn really quickly, so whether it's or performance metrics and data. Like I said, I, my answer is not gonna be sexy at all here because it allows people to pivot quickly, test quickly, learn quickly, and deeply understand their consumers, which ends up becoming the most personalized experiences. Cuz that's really what consumers are looking for. They're looking for brands to know and understand them. And personalization, I think, is incredibly important and understanding and meeting consumers where they're at in a meaningful way.

Well, talking about personalization, Matt and me were talking about this earlier on and, and the risks and issues and stuff. And Martin, you've got some questions around that.

Yeah, yeah. So obviously social media— we've gone past the days of social platforms getting nothing but glowing, enthusiastic coverage from the press, and there's been a bit of a backlash over the last few years and people worried about things like privacy and trust and ad tracking. And, um, so, um, obviously that's not your sphere, but, um, there might be a problem with people trusting social platforms when it comes to shopping. As social shopping grows, the idea of handing over your payment details to Facebook or TikTok or whoever, you know, and them knowing what you've bought and how that data might be used could be a potential stumbling block for the growth of social shopping. Would you agree?

Yeah, you know, you're right. I'm not the expert in here, and this is a really complex debate, right? There's lots of trade-offs, there's lots of nuances. Nuance. There's no neat, easy, simple answer to this. And I think we're even just— we're very much at the beginning of this conversation. What I have seen, though, Martin, is there really is a shared desire, you know, whether it's platforms, entrepreneurs, customers as well, you know, for there to be a balance struck that safeguards privacy while it facilitates entrepreneurship. And but it also provides convenience to customers who want to have seamless shopping experiences, right? They are, like I said, they are looking to make purchasing decisions. So the sticky part here is that there's a balance somewhere in the middle that balances all three of those things: platforms, entrepreneurs, and customers. You know, we all have a stake in this debate. You know, companies like Shopify do as well. And it's going to take a lot of patient work over the coming years as technologies mature. Regulatory approaches change constantly. Anyone who lives in Europe knows that as well. And so it's going to take constant conversation, constant balancing. No one's got it perfect yet at all. But regulation is going to be, you know, it's going to be a key issue in social media platforms over the next decade or so. So we'll continue to weigh in and figure that out. But it's, yeah, it's not going to be a neat, easy, simple answer.

And it's not just that as well. I think, you know, this is not a Shopify issue. This is a probably more of a Facebook and a social platform issue. And it's just an interesting talking point. But one of the things that people will remember who work in socials, you know, with Facebook especially, was the example of when people were told, get, you know, do video. Video is the thing to do. Everyone should do video. And that's what people started creating. And it was expensive. And then it kind of was like, actually, maybe it's not such a big deal and we're going to do something else now. And everyone was like, oh, thanks Facebook for that. And so people are obviously a little bit hesitant when they're kind of going all in on something that's going to be a big deal and there's all the features that are being built around it, which shopping seems to be one of those things. And with a shop that kind of does things that needs you to integrate with a platform like Facebook, you're somewhat ceding control over sometimes your insights, data, market insights for your customers around the control of how your customers maybe navigate around other products and experiences that would be on your website if they were to visit it. But if you're doing all of those transactions within a social platform and you're not, they're not being taken out to your own site, you lose— there's a trade-off there, isn't there? And I just wondered if you've noticed that at all, or do you get a sense that people are having to make some decisions whether it's right for them in terms of those sort of key things?

Yeah, I mean, these are the types of changes that require merchants to continue to need to be able to pivot, right? And this is where we've talked about, again, that cost of acquisition goes up, or that ability to deeply understand and their customers continue to adjust. And so continuing to play with and tweak and having a really great multichannel strategy in how you're reaching customers is probably the most important, right? What you just said, Matt, I thought was really key is ensuring that you don't go all in on one particular strategy because the world is changing all the time, whether it's how we shop, whether it's regulations and privacy laws or all of those things. So don't go all in just on video. Don't go all in just on Facebook. Make sure that you're creating a multichannel approach that you're able to continually, uh, continue to pivot because, uh, these changes and these adjustments are gonna continue. And so that, that's, I think the most important is to not go all in, in one particular channel.

And, and kind of following on from that point then, I guess, so for the people that are listening to this who maybe have got a small business or are those that kind of bigger business and are thinking about doing more in this space, what are some of the things that they should be considering when it comes to sort of doing something with the social shopping features on these platforms? Or what are some of the opportunities that you think they should be thinking about? How should they be thinking about it? Where would they start, do you think?

OK, first, I'm going to win a bunch of brownie points with those who are here online. Social is not the intern's job. That, I think, is like the number one thing that I end up talking to some of like the largest, most legacy brands about is it's not someone's side job. It's not off the side of the desk somewhere. It is a— it's a really— it's a tough job. It requires expertise and it requires focus. So how about that? First and foremost, invest in the right people and talent to actually focus on that. So there, there's number one. I will put that out there. Um, the other is to ensure, uh, and this I think is what the magic is of social platforms is test a lot of things. Don't be afraid of that. Don't be afraid to fail and test, right, and to learn and to pivot and to be agile, right? Because you won't know how your consumers are engaging unless you try something. So one of the reasons why I think something like a TikTok or a Pinterest is— and using those platforms is so great. In TikTok, you don't need to upload super polished video that you've invested thousands of dollars in and, you know, really great time. What resonates there is really great authentic in-the-moment kinds of videos. If you take a look, if we remember, of course, the Ocean Spray video that's resonated, like there was nothing super polished about it and it worked. So don't be afraid to try things. Don't be afraid to pivot, make sure you're learning. And then get super deep in the data, because that's how you're going to make great decisions, right? And that's how you're going to be agile. And that's how you're going to move quickly. And don't just try and copycat what another brand is doing, because another brand has a different story to tell. They have a different customer set. Just because you maybe live in a similar space, whether it's cosmetics or fashion or, you know, furniture, don't copycat. Create your own story, tell your own story authentically, and connect with brands in a really, really wheel away.

Is there any of the platforms that you think are a good starter for people that have got less technical expertise or are not maybe as experienced in using social in this way? You know, is, is TikTok versus Instagram versus Pinterest, is any of those or other ones a good or a better starting point for those that are starting out, would you say?

Actually, I got to be honest with you. I've been playing with, with a bunch of them. The great thing is about most of those channels is we've built integrations and partnerships with them right into Shopify. And so someone who is as, as much of a tech rookie as I am, I can so easily create content and posts and update them automatically right from my Shopify admin. And I can really quickly manage, you know, reporting and understanding and pivot quickly. So I'd actually say, again, And it comes back to trying a lot of them because they're super easy and accessible. You know, if you've got a really good intuitive platform that has multi-channel integrations, that's the part, you know, low-code. Uh, if I can use it, anyone can, I promise you. Um, and, and testing them out and then be able to take the data and to understand. So yeah, I'd say as long as you're working with a really great multi-channel platform that has integrations built in, it's probably fairly intuitive, and that's really the magic of social.

Absolutely. Martin?

Yeah, let's look at the future now and what we might be able to expect from social shopping in the, in the near future, first of all. So if we look at Shopify's roadmap, as I'm sure you do, what can we maybe expect in terms of social shopping features that people getting into it now could take advantage of in the near future?

Yeah, predictions are Predictions are always fun, right? Because we never know about the variables that are going to enter into the equation. Take a look at the last year as an example, right? So I'll share some thoughts with you, barring some other pandemic that locks us into our homes or all of us moving to space, you know, with Bezos and Branson in the next couple of years. You know, because the last 15 months we saw, as we were talking about before, you know, eventually experienced, you know, 10 years' worth of e-commerce acceleration in such a short amount of time. And that COVID wasn't necessarily the creator, the instigator of that change. It was an accelerant of it, right? It was a tailwind that really pushed, you know, change that was already happening forward. So in the coming, you know, in the coming short term, you know, the retail landscape is going to continue to change at pace. Our behaviors are going to continue to evolve. I think particularly right now as we are emerging out of our homes. I don't know about you guys, Matt and Martin, but I'm really looking for experiences. And that's what I'm really seeing. Brands that are thinking creatively and differently about their physical spaces are really going to be the ones that win, right? So creating a really great multichannel experience is going to be not just using your physical space as, you know, as a, as kind of a distribution center, center, but really helping, again, to extend that experience that they started to create online over the last year through all the channels, extending that into the store. And so we're going to see really great events. We're going to see communities getting built physically in stores. Daily Paper, really great streetwear merchant out of the Netherlands, actually. The physical spaces that they've created— they just launched a London store recently. They've got one in New York as well. In Amsterdam. Their spaces are so beautiful. You come in there and they create community events, whether it's music, you know, pulling together the, the communities, local communities together that are, you know, African immigrants, young, looking to connect with each other, get into the music, into the culture and art together. That's what they're creating with their spaces. And that's how they pull people into their brand. And that's what I'm seeing really resonate right now. So that's, I think short-term is gonna be very much about experiences and seeing that brick-and-mortar space really start to transform.

Is there any specific features that Shopify is sort of pushing harder on or working harder on, or you can talk to us briefly about that are things that maybe you can't do with Shopify right now, but things that you would hope that customers will be able to do in the future that link into things that are to do with social shopping on any specific platform? Platform? What are the bits that you're focusing on from a product development point of view?

Yeah, so two things that we've really observed over the last 15 months with consumers I'll touch on briefly is our expectations as consumers have elevated, right? So I'd say both the floor as well as our ceiling. And what I mean by floor is those basics that potentially used to take for granted have really risen, so convenience. And flexibility. And so ensuring just the basics of like fast shipping and logistics. And we continue to invest in that in North America through our fulfillment network and helping, you know, independent brands to create really great, you know, last-mile experiences and, and ensure convenience and immediacy of things or really great features that we've been working on. We'll continue to build on top of, you know, to be able to Buy online and pick up in store. So again, immediacy of availability. Or buy online— buy in store and ship to home, as Allbirds does, which is really great as well. So that floor, the basics, immediacy, flexibility, and availability. But then there's the other part which I think that you're really asking about, which is raising the bar on how we create experiences. And so I do, I continue to think that we're going to continue to see advancements that help people bring their products and their stories to life. And so that's video continuing to be integrated into, onto sites and into, you know, into products so that we can better feel, see, and experience a really beautiful dress, or for me to be able to, you know, really get the dimensions of a purse before I buy it. Before I buy it. It's going to be, you know, AR/VR so I can place, you know, I can really well place, you know, a sofa into my home and understand exactly how it's going to fit and feel in my space before I purchase it. Or to be able to really take a look at, you know, jewelry if someone is buying an engagement ring. It's that digital experience elevation that we're going to continue to see, Matt. I know I've seen a lot of brands start to play with some of those in the last year. And I still think that there's a long way to go in some of those to continue to create really elevated digital experiences. But the brands that are testing with it are pivoting and learning really quickly how to do these things.

Yeah, I think one of the last questions we wanted to ask you about really was around this AR and VR piece. It kind of feels like it's the natural ending to everything we talk about at the moment, because it's talking about the future. Yeah. But we spoke last week to the head of WhatsApp, and we were asking him about WhatsApp. And how that might look in a world where it's dominated more by AR and VR than it is looking at your smartphone in your hand. And, you know, Facebook continues to spend a huge amount of money on development of AR and VR. And Snapchat is constantly, it seems constantly buying up companies that have a lot of AR-related tech, especially the ones that are linked to shopping. And you were just mentioning there about, you know, the ability to virtually try things on and do the things that you would probably want to do if you were in a physical store and you need from that physical store environment environment, creating that experience, that ability in the virtual augmented reality world as well. So I guess the question for you really is in the next 10 to 20 years, really thinking far into the future, do you think, or does Shopify think of things as a shopping experience, like a Minority Report kind of sweeping products around, and you'll be in some sort of virtual world buying things, and you'll be walking into stores, and they'll know everything about you because it can tell what you purchased last or do you see something a little bit more of a sort of evolution of maybe what we're seeing now, where it's effectively still going to an Instagram or a Facebook and clicking on something manually? What's your vision of it all?

No, I honestly, I continue to be inspired by not just what's possible, but the vision of those that continue to think about and rethink what's possible. We actually, you know, we really joked a lot internally. Toby, Toby Luca, our CTO, CEO, you know, we've joked about the most ideal scenario in this world is someone should be able to click on a product with a brand that they've just discovered and instantly, you know, through some kind of like time portal, that product should appear within, you know, in their home. Barring that being available, how do we get from here to there? Right. And so I think what's— especially if you look 20 years out, I think that we are going to continue to see, you know, ideation, vision, and transformation of what we think of as the experience. So yes, AR, VR, I can imagine having virtual shopping assistants, whether they're in stores physically or pulling them into your home, advising you and helping you to— if I'm thinking of changing my wardrobe, helping me to think about and restyle myself and help me to piece outfits together, and then me being able to shop these outfits. That's absolutely where I can see us and envision us headed to. And then from the flip side, you know, coming back to the platforms that you just talked about, you know, will it still be through Instagram and all that? Yes, but elevated, right? We're going to continue to see shopping enter into all the things we experience. So whether it's, you know, right in the middle of gaming experiences, you know, we've seen tests with Fortnite in the last year. So shopping of merchandising and things that will happen right within in gaming, or as we've seen, you know, through those online, you know, through Twitch, you know, concert experiences or shoppable fashion shows, right? You know, watching, you know, brand new fall runway showing, be able to shop that look as it's happening as you click on it. These are the things that will continue to dream and vision and move towards over the next 20 years. It's just how we get there is going to be the most exciting part.

Well, I have yet to do many transactions on Instagram or Facebook or anywhere else that would classify me as a social shopper. But I'm certainly— you can imagine that I'll be one of the first tranche of people in my friendship group, that's for sure. But Shimona, it's been really lovely chatting to you about all of this stuff. And where can people find out more information about you and what you do and Shopify? Is there any kind of places they can go and find that information if they want to kind of connect with you?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, right here on Twitter @shimonameta, please do feel free to connect with me. Same as on LinkedIn. And even more importantly, connect with Shopify. @shopify is a great place to connect with us, learn about us. I'm here in the UK. And as we are able to emerge, I'm really excited to meet and see people in person.

Thanks to Shimona for taking the time to talk with us.

We're taking a short summer break this week. So there'll be no live interview on Spaces. But fear not, this season is far from over.

Look out for our interview with BBC's Sophia Smith-Gallaher at the start of August. Sophia has pioneered the art of journalism on TikTok with some brilliant videos you've probably seen.

Yes, summarising complex news stories in sea shanty form is a real skill, so we're really looking forward to chatting with her. But that's all for now, and we'll see you soon.

Goodbye, geeks.