16. The BBC's Sophia Smith Galer on TikTok journalism and positivity online

It's time to Geek Out! Hello and welcome to Geek Out with Matt Navarra, with me, Matt Navarra.

And me, Martin SFP Bryant. Now, what happens when you cross a professional news report about a stuck ship on the Suez Canal with a sea shanty? The answer was one of BBC journalist Sophia Smith-Gayler's biggest hits on TikTok.

Yes, Sophia has made a name for herself using TikTok to explain both news stories and how journalism itself works, and she joined us live on Twitter Spaces to talk about her work and her career.

And there's far more to her than just a few viral hits, so we chatted about everything from dealing with negativity online to her social media toolkit. This is a really fun conversation if you're interested in how news works on social media and how a new generation of journalists are forging careers that put their own identity front and center.

Sophia has announced that she's leaving the BBC soon for pastures new, so this was a great time to chat to her. Here's what happened when we spoke to Sophia Smith-Gayler. Hi!

Hey both, how you doing? Matt and Martin?

I'm good. I'm reeling on the news that your life is changing, but we're going to come on to all of that in a minute because you've got some, all sorts of things going on in your world. But, um, but yeah, what's, uh, what's the week been like for you today? Have you started off with a usual working week or have you had a day off?

Or no, it's been usual working week. The last fortnight I've been on and off with book edits, which has been very exciting. Um, but I am, I'm back working this week, um, on my next couple of BBC Radio docs, which are going to be my last for now.

As well, yeah, we're going to dig into all of that stuff, but maybe the first thing would be worth starting off with is I've got a little bit of a background on what you've done up until now, and you can correct me and us if we're wrong in any of these. So you did a master's, is that right, in broadcast journalism in London? Is that right?

Yes, I did. Yes.

And you started doing work for the BBC. Was that kind of your first job out of that kind of studies, or did you do other things before then?

It was my first proper job, as it were, but, um, before I'd left that master's, I had done a couple of cool other things. I'd worked on a, a BBC One documentary, um, I'd spent some time with NBC's London bureau as well, uh, that was all during the master's. But yeah, my first proper job was social media producer at bbc.com.

And what does that involve then? Because the job title social media producer could be construed as many things. Is that basically a journalist but it's geared towards content that goes on social, or is it a specific aspect of the production of news for social? You know, tell us a bit about that.

Yeah, so it was specifically for— so bbc.com straddles the US and UK, and I was working for the two feature sites that are in the UK. Which are BBC Culture and BBC Future. And the job before me, it was, uh, two different people held those roles, and I was the first to do both of them in my role together. And it meant that the work was really varied because I had to make social media content on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram for both of those verticals. So nice, you know, Future covers tech, science, lots of random things like psychology, the world of tomorrow, and culture. Pretty self-explanatory, it would be music, arts, literature. So it was really varied. And I would— a lot of my job would be figuring out ways to promote text, these text features on social media. Um, it would be working with video producers to maybe make some videos out of text features we anticipated would do well., as a social video. Um, and then like you say, I did a lot more than that. I, I wrote features myself, I made videos myself. Um, it was a bit of a mix.

Yeah.

Okay. And so then you moved on and worked for the World Service. And, and Mariah is saying also that for that your job title changed again, it was more of a visual journalist. Is that what they call it at the BBC?

Yes, uh, visual journalist. Um, and it is depend— like, it does change what that means. So some people who are visual journalists at the BBC actually deal with visualizing data. That was not my job, uh, really. I was just more of a video journalist. So it was— it's my job to make sure that Heart and Soul, the religion documentary strand of the BBC World Service, has a digital presence. Um, so sometimes that means making a video for them, sometimes that, um, it might not be making a video, but it would be sort of creating Instagram content for it, just finding a way. Or even if it's just an interesting way to tweet it out just finding a way for it to reach digital audiences, because obviously it's already reaching radio audiences.

Yeah, yeah. And then you— so you worked quite heavily on the sort of faith content for the BBC, didn't you? And so some of the user-generated stuff, and particularly around like the Instagram account for BBC World— was it for BBC World that you were doing that for? Was that— or was it one of those—

yeah, BBC World Service, uh, is who it was for. Um, and they— I pitched that Instagram account in my job interview. So it didn't exist before I came.

And how did you approach that? Because the topic of religion is always a contentious one. I know I put some of the content that talks about things to do with politics or religion in my Facebook group. I'm always a bit like, unless this is a really important story, it's going to cause a lot of friction and a lot of tension. There's a lot of polarization. So that must have been quite a challenging role, I would imagine. Or did you find it easier than you imagined, like dealing with the topic of faith, uh, on social?

You are right that especially in comment sections, it can drive some vitriol. But I think it's also because of the kind of stories that I do. They're not necessarily on-the-dairy kind of news stories. It's slower journalism. It's more featurey, documentary. And by nature of Heart and Soul being a doc program, I think we do sometimes avoid that, like, really nasty side of the internet. Um, but with Instagram, my strategy was use BBC World Service and other BBC outlets' content that was around religion, spirituality, and complement that with content that was simply— it only ever went out on our Instagram account. So sometimes that would be Instagram bespoke films I'd make or posts I'd do— or I remember in the very beginning I would do seasons. So each month we'd focus on something different, be it sacred music, be it faith and fashion. Um, and I would try and involve people who were influencers in the religious space to get involved with the Instagram account, um, and as a way to grow it early on.

And was BBC pretty good with that in terms of kind of giving you some level of autonomy, in terms of letting you put your own kind of thoughts into that? Or, or is it quite bureaucratic and it's quite difficult in that sort of environment BBC compared to maybe a Sky News or another sort of more sort of profit-driven organization? How's that been?

I, I, um, I was given a lot of freedom with that Instagram account and I really enjoyed it, and it wouldn't have grown at the rate that it did if I didn't have that freedom. Uh, so I had a really great time running it.

Uh, well, I think what we— I guess we should talk a little bit about is TikTok, because I guess most people are familiar with a lot of the stuff that you've done in relation to TikTok, whether it's because you've talked about the platform or you've learned something on the platform yourself, and you've, you know, been in the news in relation to TikTok. So I guess one of the questions I want to ask you about is kind of, um, how much of your role now revolves around like the, that specific platform, or do you treat it more as social platforms more broadly, and it just happens to be that TikTok for you is one that you favor and find it most interesting? You know, where does it sit amongst the mix of things?

It's really difficult to answer that really, because especially as I'm in this weird life limbo at the moment, and it's all probably about to change slightly.

Yeah.

Um, but I mean, up until now it's been this bizarre platform that has provided me with so much, so many ideas, uh, such a big audience that I never thought I would really be able to access, certainly not at this stage in my career, uh, this early on. Uh, however, it is the one app that I use day to day which the BBC is not on. BBC editorial news content, that is.

Why is that?

Oh, I don't know, that's so above my pay grade, Matt. I wouldn't know.

Fair enough, fair enough. Martin?

Yeah, so, so how did you break through on TikTok? Was there one video that kind of clicked with the audience and you thought, oh, I'm on to something here?

The first video I made was all because I had heard about TikTok. I'd been on there for a few days, weeks, thought, oh yeah, this is fun. And at the time it was so nascent, um, I was the only person my age who I knew had even gone on it out of curiosity, um, and I would, you know, as a video journalist, I just thought I should know what this is about just in case the BBC comes on here. I should know how it works. I don't want to, I don't suddenly have to use it for work and look like an idiot. So I started making, um, a video which was based on a trend that I'd seen And that's because I'd spent time on TikTok and I saw a number of people doing the same audio meme. So I thought, oh, okay, I'll do it. I did it and it blew up and it gave me, I think I got 4,000 followers just from that one video over a short space of days. And I just kept making them. Anyone who's ever gone viral before knows that the hit of virality is infectious. So you get it and then you think, God, I wanna do it again. I want that to happen again. Um, and so when you have a video tank, you think, oh no, you know, you get really upset. And then when you have a video do really well, uh, it feels deeply gratifying and validating. So that's basically what kept me on there. And then the longer time I spent on there, the more I realized that, oh, this could be useful, this could be a useful journalistic tool for me. It's not just something to have fun on. And obviously over the past couple of years, we have really seen it become an app that provides us with so many different types of content. Increasingly, lots of it is very creative, very engaging, very informative. Um, it's not simply a place where we joke around or we share, um, sort of relatable content. It's also very much become an information space, an information sharing space.

Is the, is the instance of going viral on TikTok, do you think it's different? There's something about it that's somewhat unique compared to going viral with a tweet on on Twitter? And, and second part to that question, do you think that TikTok is somewhat unique amongst the social platforms, particularly in your world of social and journalism? Is there something special about it, or is it just another social platform?

I can— this is completely based on my personal experience, so other people may have found something different, but I have found that I, in terms of reaching an audience that is not yet connected to me, i.e., they may not already follow me they may not even follow any of my acquaintances. For me to reach them rapidly, I know that, oh, if I make a good enough TikTok, I'll reach them, and I'll reach them within a day, 2 days. Um, I, I know that a tweet or Instagram post wouldn't necessarily deliver me, um, what I'd want, which would be a lot of people getting in touch with me, um, or even a lot of people simply sharing something that could then lead me on to the next tip and the next tip after that. Um, so, so it's that speed that is very efficient for me. Um, that being said, that this— that only comes with having developed a profile on there, which is not efficient. It's a lot of— it's a lot of work every day, um, or every week.

So what's tricky And what's cut through the most for you then? What's the video that you think has cut through the most for you and been most successful in terms of its impact, I suppose, both on TikTok and beyond? Because these things reach out, and, you know, I've seen your stuff far more on Twitter, I suppose, than I have on TikTok. So, um, because people have shared it and go, hey, check out this.

Yeah, and I deliberately don't share most of my TikToks on Twitter because that's how I work out who's actually following me on TikTok or not. And I even, even on Instagram, I don't— I often don't share a lot of my TikTok content either. Um, there are two ways that I measure impact with TikTok, and again, it's dependent on, on various things that I like to do. And I appreciate the same video doesn't necessarily achieve all these different things that I like to do. So you could make a video that gets you loads of new followers but it may not necessarily, um, help me with the story that I'm currently working on, for example. However, it's all useful, it's all beneficial to, to me growing my audience and that audience being there when I do have a new story, when I do need new information. Um, so if we take an example that put me on people's radar, like the Suez Canal Sea Shanty is a really brilliant example of that. Um, it put me on such a big um, you know, megaphone that had got me on the, on the front page of Egypt's, uh, newspaper, most read newspaper. It got me on Greg James's show. Like, if you'd said to me, Sophia, figure out a way for you to get your journalism on, um, the front page of an Egyptian newspaper and Greg James's show, I'd have been like, uh, gosh, what am I gonna have to do to do that? Well, it was a Suez Canal Sea shanty. Um, but then there are other videos that I've made that have had maybe 30 1,000 views, 40,000 views natively. There is no way I'd get that amount of views with a Twitter video, um, even though I have, you know, a not completely tiny Twitter following. But if I, if I just put a video out there, it would get maybe 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 views if I'm lucky, if it didn't go viral. Um, on TikTok, 30,000 views. And if it's about quite a niche topic where I'm inviting people to say, hey, I'm working on this, I'd love to talk to people who have a relevant experience they'd be happy sharing, that can deliver me so many DMs even though it only has 30,000 views. Um, and in that respect, that's very useful to me. So it really differentiates for me, um, what a useful or good TikTok can be.

So in terms of like approaching news then, and as a journalist that predominantly uses or likes to use social platforms, is the process— for those who are uninitiated with the, the world of creating a news story for the BBC or any of these news publishers Is there quite a different approach to it, um, what the idea— coming up with the idea, developing the idea, producing it for, for use on whatever platform, if you know from the outset that this is, you know, one that you can see, or aiming it to be a successful piece that is geared towards, say, TikTok? Is there a difference in the approach? And if so, could you help us understand how, you know, how you approach it differently? What things do you consider, um, when you're, when you're going through the process?

That's a really good question. Um, there are different things that you could do if you've noticed that there's a particular topic that loads of people on TikTok seem really invested in and are talking about it. That it seems smart to think, oh well, they're talking about it in this way, however they haven't covered this part of the conversation, um, and perhaps they haven't covered this part of the conversation because they haven't been able to directly speak to an expert, for example. So your additional value that you can provide, for example, as a public service broadcaster, would be, right, let's, let's bring something into this conversation that they're not already talking about. But, um, they are hyper-engaged and they'll appreciate it. It will give them some new information and that they're more likely to engage and share it. Um, one example is I made a video about forced marriage and that that used a TikTok, uh, creator who had gone viral on the platform. Um, and he still isn't a massive creator on there or anything, but there will be people who remember his video because it was so moving. Um, so including him as, as the author of the film again, um, drove some engagement. Um, really, I would suggest, because most people won't necessarily be able to spend the time to look on TikTok for case studies and contributors. Um, it is smart to spend time on there and at least see simply what people are talking about. And then very quickly you'll start to see, ah, they're really interested in this. And if you're thinking, oh well, I want to do a report on this but no one's talking about it on there, chances are it's because younger audiences aren't that interested in it. Um, or maybe it's simply never been served to them in a way that's actually relevant to their lives.

Because one of the challenges that the news publishers face at the moment, or you hear a lot talked about, is reaching younger audiences. And you look at the Reuters Digital News reports, and you see lots of coverage in the world of journalism about how do you reach these younger audiences who are heavy or heavier users of social platforms, who are disenfranchised, disengaged in news media. And we're going to talk about some of the possible reasons for that later on. I've got a couple of questions I wanted to ask you. What sort of things do tend to work well on platforms? Is it as easy as saying, well, if it's TikTok, then stories that are about ABCD, they're going to reach people, younger audiences there really easily, but topics like this isn't— they're not going to work so much? Is it, is it as clear-cut as that, or is it more about just the style and it doesn't matter about what the story is about, it's the way that you deliver it?

I was going to say, I don't think it's to do with topics, to be honest. I think it's far more style-wise. Um, I, I do genuinely believe there is something in every topic to make it interesting to younger audiences. And if not, you know, all younger audiences, at least a niche within younger audiences who, who are only going to encounter that content on their social media platform because they're not interested in consuming your new— you know, they don't go to your website, they don't buy your paper, they don't listen to your radio station. Like, they're not going to find it that way. So the only way it's going to get to them is on a social media platform. Um, style-wise, we do know that people— from that digital news report, we know that Twitter is realistically the only app that people go to for mainstream news content. For other platforms, for, for YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, they go for personalities. Um, and if you look at a number of the I, I'd say sort of a couple of on TikTok, like, leading news creators, they, they do have personality. That they are— their face has become their brand attribution. Um, you see their face and you know you're going to learn something new, and that's taken a lot of time for them to build. And obviously, you may— just like if, if you— just like if you loved a morning news program on TV You can love the program without loving every single story they do, but generally you probably, you know, you're engaged in most of them, or, you know, half of them. It's exactly the same thing with, for example, news accounts on Instagram and TikTok. Um, you know, you're going to learn something new every now and again. You're like, oh no, that doesn't interest me. But most of the time you are invested in listening to these people and If you take the example of TikTok, mainstream journalists are not occupying this space. They aren't going in there and being personalities. I see a bit of it on Instagram. Um, for some reason Instagram seems more natural for a lot of us to go on rather than TikTok. Um, you even don't necessarily— many on YouTube either. Twitter is the easiest, uh, possibly because, you know, it's text-based and you can push out a few tweets during a busy working day? Can you push out a TikTok? You could, you can if you have a skill set, e.g. you're a video journalist and you, you are equipped to pump these things up very quickly. But if you're not, it really— I think it does feel like an awful lot of effort.

What does your social media toolkit contain? I'm thinking software, hardware. Is it literally just your phone, or do you have special microphones and things, special software?

What do you use?

So I have been thinking that I might amp up what I have, um, but up until now, I mean, even to make my TikToks, it's incredibly low production and it literally is just my phone. Um, and I mean, sometimes I'll also use my AirPods, but otherwise I don't— I don't even have a sort of a microphone. I may get one though. Um, I'm kind of hoping to make a bit of a better jazzier setup, um, which I'll do over the next couple of months. Um, other than that, obviously I have my laptop, um, for work I have a camera, I have a Canon 5D, that's what I shoot everything on, um, and for my radio I record with an H5 Zoom. And when I— because everything I do generally is very multimedia, so if I'm making radio I'm also making video, uh, and possibly also doing text as well. So I need to make sure that my audio quality, if I'm filming, is good enough for radio. So I generally record my audio externally on the Zoom, um, and then I will sync up the audio in the edit with my video. And I use Final Cut Pro, and that's, uh, mainly because that's what I have to use as a BBC journalist, because Final Cut Pro is where all our templates live that we use to edit video and make them all look, in BBC style. So other than that, I'm trying to think, those are the main tools I use.

I'm guessing things like TweetDeck and stuff like that are just a standard, but did you use any other publishing tools, or was that already dictated by what the publisher you work for uses? I.e., BBC for you is using whatever tools, you have to, you kind of follow that lead, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. Um, I do, I do use tools for my journalism. Um, I do use, I found a really good tool the other day where I could analyze, uh, user profiles on Reddit. Um, and I did that. This was for my book, so I did that. I gathered a sample of users from a particular subreddit and looked at what other subreddits they, um, they were in to see if I could find any kind of connection, um, or similar interests, uh, what other tools there are. Um, what's it called? Is it called What Does the Public— Ask the Public? I really like that tool. Um, Google Ngrams, um, Google Trends, they're things I use sometimes just to get it to sort of litmus test whether something's interesting or a trend that's changing. They're the kind of things that I may use. Um, otherwise trying to think if there's anything else that I use in terms of like third-party tools to analyze how my content's done. I don't really have access to anything like that, not for my personal stuff. I just, I literally just use the in-platform analytics.

Got you. Martin?

Yeah, shifting gear a little bit, we noticed you're on TikTok's Creator Council. Just wondering what that is and what does it involve and how did you get involved with it?

So it sounds very impressive, doesn't it?

It does.

Sounds like a table of creators who govern all from a big table somewhere in the sky or something.

I, uh, yeah, I, I mean, I was— I didn't apply for it or anything. I got an email one day saying, we'd love you to join it. And what I do is very, very small and not impressive, even though it sounds very impressive. And it's literally, um, about— I think, uh, it's, it's this— I'm pretty sure it's a 6-month post I'm probably nearing the end of. But all it is is they um, as creators we can simply offer our user experience, um, and it's a space for us to ask for changes if we'd like them. It's a space for TikTok to say, hey, we launched this new feature a month ago, have you used it, do you like it? Um, it's basically just a chinwag, um, using, I guess, some of our creator expertise. And the Creator Council that I'm sitting in, I am by far the least popular. I think I probably have the lowest following amongst all of them, but we all do come from really different niches within, within the creative space, which is what I think is quite interesting about being in it. Um, but yeah, I did get to speak at a TikTok festival in London about a month ago, and I got to meet some of them in real life, which was really nice, um, because otherwise I don't meet creators day to day. I do not work with other creators in that sense. Of course, everyone I work with is a creator because I think journalists are creators, but, um, I don't necessarily surround myself with, uh, creators whose lives are completely on these platforms. And I feel like I'm in a weird limbo between the two. Um, so it was really interesting to actually meet some people as well.

You just talked about there about features and things. Is there, is there any particular features that you, um, have come across that are lacking, things that you think, why have they not got this on, on TikTok or in other platforms, particularly around the work you do in journalism? Is there, is there some obvious ones that you've already shouted about to the people at TikTok?

Um, I'm trying to think. All I'm desperate for at the moment, I want, um, and they will roll out for us, they just haven't yet because in the US they already have, but automatic captions I have to spend quite a lot of time editing my captions to make sure that they are— my videos are more accessible. Um, and that's not only for people who may have, I don't know, special educational needs, but additionally I have so many people who follow my content for whom English is not their first language. So having my captions on there is really, really helpful. Um, just like if I was following like a Spanish influencer, it would help me as well. Um, so I just, I'd love them to introduce that so I can spend less time, and that will make, uh, making TikToks take up even less of my time.

So moving away slightly from TikTok, um, but some of the questions that people have asked me who work in journalism are, I think, are questions related to newer platforms or newer, newer sort of formats. And one of the ones that's been talked about a lot in the last 6 to 12 months is, is audio. Then we're We're talking on one of them right now with Twitter Spaces and Clubhouse. And there are newsletters have had a resurgence of interest in it. And there's probably a few others that we could think about that are somewhat flavor of the month at the moment for use of, for people consuming content, whether it's news or otherwise. Are these ones that excite you? Do you see them as opportunities for journalists that are as yet untapped? Because at the moment, it's still very early on for the likes of Clubhouse and Twitter Spaces. But to me, it seems like quite an obvious and good thing for them to try out for different formats for content? What have you made of all of these things that have come out recently?

Yeah, I think the minute I am less— I am more time-rich, because at the moment I'm so time-poor with my book. But the minute my book takes up less of my day-to-day, I got so obsessed with Clubhouse when it did first launch. And you could see, in the terms of, like, battery usage on my phone, the amount of time I was spending on Clubhouse. Really, really shot up. It was impacting on my Netflix time, it was impacting on my TikTok time, um, and that's because a lot of the Clubhouse chats were just really juicy conversations and they were talking about really important things that I think had I tried to make an appointment to listen to them, I would have forgotten about them or something else in my life would have taken priority. But it's the fact that I'd get a notification that an interesting chat is happening and I would just turn it on and have it on in the background, just like radio. Um, but radio doesn't necessarily notify me that there's an interesting chat happening, whereas Clubhouse does. Therefore, I'm more likely— my smartphone habits mean I'm more likely to tap into it. Um, I don't know if it's still as compelling because I think I see less people in my social circles talking about Clubhouse now. Yeah, but, um, I would— will go back in there. And there is an example in the book where I was on I was listening to a Clubhouse chat and I did hear like really wild health misinformation. And because the Clubhouse chat was a very much, um, self-confirming space, it was a space where everyone was very like-minded. No one in there was gonna pipe up and challenge what had been said. Everyone was just going to absorb it as, as truth. So I think there's probably a lot on Clubhouse that is worth examining. I see so much, um, there's so much finance chat on there and entrepreneurialism chat. There must be finance scams happening. I just, I haven't looked on there, but there must be.

Do you think that there'd be— that these audio platforms could be used in a way where there's like a big, like, long-running story such as, I don't know, COVID's maybe not the best example from what I'm thinking of, but certainly story that is in, in the news cycle frequently and it hasn't got a distinct end date, so it's rolling news, um, where journalists will find ways to use audio as a way of jumping in, bringing people that are involved in the story, getting it, making it happen live, and just having those live discussions. Do you see that as a way that audio could be used in, in the news production or in some of these news companies? Or, or is it something that you just don't think is going to be wetting the appetites of people, or it's too tricky to organize, or it doesn't make sense with all the other things that a journalist might have to do? Because to me it seems like an obvious thing that they might try and do as a journalist.

I don't know. I would counter that and say, why does the company have to do it? Why can't individual journalists do it? Um, I think the minute the, the company does it, um, I don't know if that is in line with these personality trends that we're seeing.

Well, then that leads immediately into a relevant question, and that's the question around creators, because one of the things that has changed over the last 12 months significantly is this role of the creator, the buzzword creator and then all these monetization tools. And then we've seen a lot of journalists, or at least a number of journalists, jump into kind of more independent roles. So they've got their own Substack, they've got their own kind of paid-for community they've developed, and their own personal brand. I would say someone like Taylor Lorenz shares a lot of similarities in many ways with the things that you do, in terms of works in journalism, is very much a heavy user of social, is big and into TikTok and in that kind of, that whole environment. But that causes quite a lot of, a lot of friction, I would imagine, with, with between the journalist and the, the employer who's giving them the, the opportunity to write for them or whatever. And do you see that as a big shift, or do you think this is just a small thing that can run neatly alongside people's jobs whilst working for a BBC or a New York Times? Or do you think there is, there's friction that's going to continue to cause trouble there for people who want to create a personal brand, like the, your own personal brand versus that of BBC or whoever you work for?

It just, I'd be interested to get your views on, on that shift in, in the way that people operate now in that Yeah, I would instinctively see this new space as really good news for freelancers and people with multi-hyphenate careers, um, who perhaps work for some of these major outlets but not necessarily full-time. Um, that's where I see some of these spaces being most useful. It is inevitable, obviously, that if you work for a major outlet and you work for them full-time and all of your content is going to be kind of associated with them. It makes sense. It's in many cases, you know, it's right that there is some, um, you know, you need to have some boundaries. But I, I, I, I think it offers so many opportunities for people who aren't journalists, um, and who don't come from the places that do traditionally get all the power and access to use these tools and be heard. That's what's so exciting about it. And that's not a new conversation. I remember when I first entered journalism, people were talking about citizen journalism. Um, that's something that's been around, that's far predated social media. Um, so yeah, it's, it, it is a tricky one, but just because there's friction doesn't mean that you can't innovate.

Yeah, I think it certainly seems like some of the forward thinking— maybe that's the politest way, nicest way of framing it, publishers are trying to find working relationships or working models that allow for the independence of the writer to create a brand for themself, which inevitably will generate more page views, more listens, more views, whatever it is that they're hoping to gain from having this person write for them or present for them. Building that and helping them build a brand around that, because personalities are what sells news more than many other things these days. So to me it makes sense, but I can certainly see some legacy publishers struggling with that, the concept of having someone who's got their own brand and maybe monetizing it and finding a way to make a side hustle alongside their job as a paid-for employed member of the journalist team. But, but, but Martin, there are some other topics we're going to pick up as well, because I'm conscious that we've been speaking for like 10 or 15 minutes into the second stab at this, and I don't want to keep Sophia longer than maybe she needs to. So what else have we got? Yeah, yeah.

So we are in the age of misinformation and fake news and, and all of that. And, uh, you could join the BBC while that had already kind of kicked off with the election of Donald Trump. And so you've maybe got a different perspective on this than someone who's maybe been in journalism for years and looks at this and goes, oh, we've lost all trust of our audience, and, and that kind of thing. So I just wonder what your perspective is on keeping audience trust, especially when you look at social media and you look at, uh, even the the BBC's misinformation reporter just gets a load of abuse about how, you know, how what they're saying is misinformation, even though they're reporting on misinformation. So it's a complex minefield. And how do you approach that?

Um, it's tricky because it— I, I don't gen— I am not someone who generally faces much online abuse. And I don't generally— I'm also not actually employed to be a reporter, so I'm not a news reporter technically. All the news reporting I do has been outside the remit of my role. But certainly in times when I have done reports, if someone does message something that's a bit nasty, I always counter it with kindness and more information. I don't believe in kind of being snide and mean and, "How can you think that? That's stupid." Like, that will never be me. And I have always, with my videos that I've made for Heart and Soul, after I've published the videos, I do spend time in the comments sections. And if I see people sharing things that are just really, really wrong and inaccurate about a faith group, I will reply. I will say, "Hello." I made this video actually, um, have a nice day. Uh, again, I don't want to ever be seen as being— it's not only about being seen as mean, I don't want to be seen as patronizing as well, um, because often I— that's not how you're going to persuade someone into, um, reading your fact, uh, and, you know, absorbing it and hopefully not sharing misinformation again. But I would say what I try to do, and very much part of why I am on TikTok, is that people get to know me and they have a direct— they feel like they have a direct relationship with me. And that, for example, if something really, um, bad or simply mad happened in their lives, they would feel like they could tell me about it And while that's not necessarily about countering misinformation, that is about building trust. I think we do need to think about building trusting relationships that aren't necessarily about countering misinformation. Building trust is also how we tell better stories, full stop, because more people will talk to us, more people will be happy sharing something with us, and they're not— and they're going to know that, um, in speaking to us, we also, you know, protect them in some way. We aren't going to take advantage. Um, so for me, trust is actually more about that than it is about, um, explicit countering misinformation. However, in my future career and changing job roles, that might change, and I may see that challenge is actually, um, taking up more of my time. But for now, it's more about simply connecting with people.

One of the other areas of concern that we were just going to pick up on before we wrap things up today is, and this discussion around the topic that comes up every time you speak about Facebook or TikTok and Twitter and social media and that's its role, somewhat negative role it plays in society and the dangers it presents, particularly to young and vulnerable users and what their level of responsibility is as a company, but also how much actually should we be laying at the door of a Facebook or a TikTok in terms of the concerns we have around polarization and many other of these other topics we sort of touched on in the last 20 minutes or so. But you operate in this space as much as any journalist does. And also I'm sure people have a view on, on these platforms. I just wonder what your take is on, on kind of the real and present danger these platforms present to, to certainly to younger audiences, um, and also how much responsibility do you think they have as, as companies versus maybe parents and teachers have versus governments and regulators. So just wanted to get your spin on, on that, having been in this space for some time and reported on it, I guess.

Um, I, I— this is a very impartial answer, but I think everyone could be doing a bit better. That is what I think. That's my honest opinion. Everyone from, from the people with the highest and greatest amounts of power to Joe Bloggs who sees a nasty comment online, um, and doesn't bother reporting it when they could be reporting it. Um, I can personally— I can speak from, um, the more I've reported on all of this, the more I've become an active— but I don't know if this is the right way to describe it, but like a, a bystander, but an active bystander. So if I do see a nasty comment online, it's irrelevant that it wasn't directed at me, I still report it. Um, I don't know if people get taught at school, at schools now, that that should be something that you do. I think we talk a lot about reporting abuse, like report abuse directed at you And it's like, yes, we do need to do that, but we also need to make sure that other people, um, are happy and healthy as well. Um, so I think everyone—

do you think we're expecting too much of them? Do you think— do you think the media criticizes social media platforms too much? And do you think that we as a society or as, or as individuals are expecting or have unrealistic expectations of what can be done in terms of the issues such as, you know, trolling and abuse of people and harassment and things like Yeah, what's your take on that?

I 100% agree with that because I think that obviously the things that are going to make news stories are often negative. Um, and even if I look at my own life, the role that the internet has played in making parts of my life so much better— my health, my relationships my access and knowledge about my own human rights, um, I have gained from the internet connectivity, meeting people, learning languages. All of these things have been infinitely improved by being able to find community online in a way that I can't find in my physical life, or I can find it in my physical life but to a limit. And there's only so much time in the day, especially for me. And the internet really helps me max out my life as much as I possibly can. Um, I really grew up with the internet. I can remember my earliest friendships and relationships really being informed and shadowed by the internet. And as much as much badness as it causes, my life has really been infinitely improved by all the wonderful connections that I have been able to make. I would not— I possibly wouldn't even be a journalist without it, and I wouldn't be the journalist that I am without it either.

That's such an optimistic kind of— It is.

It really is. I love it.

That's the kind of attitude people had to the internet and to social media 10 years ago, and we've lost that. And it's great to see that people, even though we don't hear it shared that much, that some people still think that. So that's great to hear.

Absolutely, it does. And actually, as we're wrapping some of these bits and pieces up, because I think we've got a couple of minutes and I'm going to let Sophia have the rest of her day to herself, is, you know, who are the people that excite you online at the moment? You know, whether it's because they're doing amazing journalistic things, they're just incredible creators, or they're people that are telling really important stories. You're in and around this stuff all day long. She'll be as good as anyone to tell us who should be inspiring us or who is inspiring you. Who should we look for?

I mean, you compared me to Taylor earlier and I died because I'm in love with Taylor. I just think her journalism is amazing.

She's great.

She's pretty awesome from a journalistic perspective. She is who I aspire, uh, to be more like. Um, if I speak about creators, I mean, my For You page on TikTok, because I look for content that informs me, um, I get fed it, which is very nice. So, um, there's a great creator on there called Benji who talks a lot about systemic racial injustice and how to meet it and compute it in day-to-day life, I've really benefited from. He's an excellent example of TikTok style and how that can work well. Um, gosh, who else?

Um, what about also about publishers? For those who are kind of like maybe fed up with kind of following one particular news publisher and they're not getting that kind of the source, the quality of news that they want, or want a different take and a different spin on it. Are there other— we'll assume that you think BBC is the best thing ever, but aside from BBC, can you tell us some of the publishers that you follow, or maybe some of the journalists that, other than Taylor of course, that you find quite good on these platforms at the moment?

Hmm, gotta be honest, I get most of my news from social media. I do not follow publishers. Um, I— if I wasn't a journalist, I'd be a massive news avoider. I am really a person of my generation. I probably wouldn't see a lot of it. Um, I subscribe to the New York Times.

Would you say— do you think that's actually something that is a generational thing then, in the sense that me, I'm a little bit older than you, not much, a little bit, but I certainly, you know, gravitate to certain news publishers and increasingly now in the last few years individual writers and reporters as well. And so I will think of like NowThis or, or Al Jazeera or a BBC or a Sky, whatever. Um, but it sounds to me, having spoken to yourself and a few other people in, I guess, in your generation of people, that it's more about the, the, the stories and the individuals, and it's, it's the brand of the news and maybe the, the kind of, uh, the thing overrides is less important. It's more about individuals. And I don't know if that is a generational thing or whether it's a shift in just the way we all consume news.

I don't know what your thoughts are on I do think some of it is generational because even when I speak to friends of mine who aren't journalists, um, they are kind of semi-religious fanatics of certain podcasts, which I think is a bit like what you're describing as well. I used to be too, but none of the podcasts that I listened to again were newsy, and they were always comedians. Um, I also have a lot of friends who follow YouTubers and I am increasingly following more YouTubers who share interesting content that is newsy, but they're again not journalists, but they are filmmakers. So you could be on to something there, but I really don't know how much of it is informed by my job that makes me, you know, not a reflective representative sample.

Okay, well, um, I'm conscious of the time, and so that maybe you could just quickly tell us a bit about what's coming up for you then, because I know that you're leaving the, uh, the BBC and you're not quite yet revealed your full plans, but you've also got this book that you're writing, and there's probably lots of other bits and pieces. So, so what does take up your time at the moment, or what is it, your people, where people can find you and what you're doing?

Yeah, so you can, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. They're the places that are most active. Um, the book is taking up most of my time, and that's going to be out in January, and it's, uh, published by HarperCollins called Losing It: Dispelling the Sex Myths That Rule Our Lives. And it's me, um, investigating and debunking lots of the sex myths that have been handed down to us either by, uh, faith or cultural backgrounds or even medical myths perpetuated despite studies coming out and, and debunking them, um, which has been thrilling to write and is full of internet culture things.

So how did you like it? Sorry, how did you come to write and decide that that was something you wanted to write about and it was substantial enough for you to write about? Where did that interest come from?

Yeah, it began as I got approached to write a book, which is very exciting, um, but that happens to a lot— I've discovered that happens to a lot of people, but then I mean, getting a successful book proposal is not what happens necessarily. So I'm really fortunate that I had wonderful support from my editor, Grace Pengelly. But, um, originally it was going to be a book about virginity. And this idea, it— in my research, I came to learn and understand how, wow, actually virginity is this sort of destructive origin myth that we're first told. About sex. And then as we go through our lives and reach sexual maturity, you sort of learn, actually, what is this all about? I've been fed lots of lies. Uh, I also don't necessarily have access to an ethical, pleasurable sex life, and turns out it's because of all these things I've been told that simply aren't true. Um, so some of it is informed by personal experience, but mainly it's informed by all these interviews that I've been doing around the world with, um, everyone from from hymen repair surgeons to pornographers to a lot of doctors and sex therapists, but mainly normal people just trying to lead happy normal lives and sort of being confounded by all this misinformation they've been given. Um, but yeah, other than that, uh, I'm sort of tidying those edits up. I'm getting excited for my new role. Um, there'll be news about it soon, hopefully. Um, I am still a reporter, so if you have— if anyone has something that they think they'd love me to cover, um, I'm always here ready to report on new stories, um, and look for new stories ahead of my new job as well. Um, so it's a lot of change. Hope I will be TikToking. I'll continue to TikTok and Instagram and Reddit and Discord and maybe try Twitch. It depends how much time I have in the day. But, um, yeah, it's still, it's still social media. The social media side of my journalism is not going to stop.

If anything, it's going to get Thanks to Sophia for taking the time to talk with us. That was a lot of fun.

We'll be back soon with our next interview when we'll be talking to David Carroll and Carol Cadwallader from activist group the self-styled Real Facebook Oversight Board. Look out for that soon.

In the meantime, don't forget that you can join the Geek Out community by searching for the Social Media Geek Out group on Facebook. And why not subscribe to my Geek Out newsletter with all the week's social media news and discussion in your inbox for free? Every Friday.

Or my newsletter Tech Revolution, which brings you all of the most important tech news from the week. If you want to understand the future, I make sense of the biggest, most impactful stories to help you understand what's coming next.

Links to all of those are in the show notes for this episode. We'll be back soon, but for now, goodbye geeks!