What's the Secret to Hiring for Long-Term Success? Christina Lock Reveals All

Imagine you've got a ticking time bomb in your office. It could go off at any single moment. And when it does, it's going to destroy your culture. You might lose some clients, you might lose some teammates, you might have irreparable damage to your company. Now imagine that you hired this time bomb. Well, I've done it before. Some of you may have done it before, and that is the potential impact of a bad hire. They can have lasting repercussions on your business, not only in the short term, but the long term. But what if you could defuse that time bomb before it even enters your workplace? That's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to unlock some of the secrets to transforming your recruitment strategy, particularly if you are a small business. We're going to share some powerful techniques that could be the difference between your company's failure and phenomenal success. So stay tuned as we dive into the game-changing world of strategic recruiting. Your company's best chapter starts now. Welcome back to Culture and Compliance, where we teach you how to create a better place to work so you can attract, retain, and engage top talent. We're breaking down complex topics into practical, easy-to-implement steps. That enhance organizational culture and maintain compliance. In today's episode, I am honored to be joined by my good friend Christina Locke. She's the CEO of Catch Talent. I'm going to make her blush for just a moment here as I walk through her resume, just a brief bit. But she's the founder and CEO of Catch Talent, which is the top technical recruiting agency in the Southeast, Inc. 5000 Award winner, among many other awards. She's board member and chairperson of the Harbor Entrepreneur Center. She's the founder and co-organizer of Disrupt HR Charleston. She is the person that you want to talk to when you're talking about hiring. She's been doing it for a while and she is awesome at it. And she's going to help us today to unpack some of the things as it relates to hiring for your culture. So let's dive right in, Christina. I want to talk about this concept that I don't think enough people are talking about. That's the difference between a cultural fit and a cultural ad when we're hiring. What is this and what does this mean and how do we screen for this when we're hiring new talent on our team?

Yeah, thank you, Matt. Glad to be here. And a really good question. I think that, you know, this word culture can thrown around in terms of your organization and the people that you're hiring and even those that have been with your company for a long period of time. How do you maintain that culture relative to a culture fit or a culture add? You know, there's, it's, it's not a stagnant thing. You can't just say like, here's place and time. It's sort of like the weather, right? Like it's always changing. And it could be you have a time and period where everything is running on all cylinders and it's going really well. And there could be times where there's a lull. And so, I think that this evolution of culture is you have to consider where you are at 10 people versus where you are at 50 people and then 100. It's kind of those increments as you scale an organization. So, I think that there is a place to consider the conversation around a culture ad based on where you are in the trajectory and history of your company too, right? Like what used to work with us, for us, maybe, you know, a couple years ago, it may not work for us now. And we're a different organization and we may need different, you know, aptitude or values and things that this individual can bring or multiple individuals. To take you to the next level. So, I've always been, you know, sort of thought around that premise, if you will, where it's like, you have to think about the evolution of culture versus point in time.

Yeah, that's a great point because at different points, so when I think about hiring a culture fit, I'm hiring somebody who fits our current culture. And so, they're going to blend in, they're going to, you know, contribute in a way that if, to your point, if things are really humming and we really want to not rock the boat, and we're at a phase maybe where we're hitting some, some really steep growth where a lot of things are already changing. And then when we start to add culture adds, which is somebody that's maybe unique to our culture today— I was thinking about this recently— sometimes you need that culture add who's maybe just a hard charger when you've got a team full of folks that are a little more relaxed. We're in the Southeast, you and I, right? And so oftentimes you got a team full of people where things, when, when they're just kind of going well, they're just kind of going well, and you might need to hire somebody to come in and shake things up a little bit. I read a quote recently from the head football coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers. He said, if our team doesn't face adversity early in the year, I create it. And I like that because I was like, ah yeah, sometimes you've got to create a little adversity internally when things are going really well. And now obviously that you don't want to make a bad hire there, but you might want to hire somebody that doesn't fit the norm. What are some examples of times in your career you've seen great culture fits or culture adds, and how does that play out, particularly when we're looking at hiring in a small business setting?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think several instances, right? My, my former company Spark Software Business, so we were rapidly hiring, and of course, culture fit. We called it the two-beer test, right? Like, you can probably have a beer with anyone, but do you want to sit down and have that second beer, right? Like, it's, it's the culture fit of, do you want this person part of your organization? But as we began to expand into other areas, it was product, it was mobile, and in different areas that required a bit of a different skill set, like you said, shaking things up. Maybe it was someone that, um, you know, could bring that true leadership of forming and charging the, the team, if you will, just like the Pittsburgh Steelers coach, right? Like creating that adversity versus kind of doing it how it's always been done. And, and so that— there were some particular hires that we had that whether it was at the leadership level or a net new position that we had never hired for, like those are very different conversations as you're going through the interview process. You know, versus, hey, this is a position, a software developer we've hired and in multiple teams, it may be just a totally unique position that required different skill sets and core values. And then turning that back to Ketch in particular, Dan Coombs, my president, definitely for us was a culture add, right? Like we knew he had the chops. He's been doing this for 25 years. Like no doubt Dan had the technical and leadership ability, but that added value and culture add that Dan brought was just exactly what we needed. Like, we felt like we became a well-rounded leadership team in that moment that he could really bring kind of like all facets and kind of pull it all together. We're implementing EOS. So if you've heard of EOS, there's a visionary and an integrator, and Dan is definitely that integrator. Like, he plugged right in as that integrator. And that for us was totally what we needed. Like, we needed process and structure, but also someone to be a true leader and bring those experiences experiences to the table.

Well, that's a great point. Sometimes the culture ad starts with the role, and then it's the personality that it takes to excel in that role becomes the culture ad, right? And so adds a little bit of that, you know, that integrator vibe, that more organized person. Like, I know a lot of us in this world come from kind of a sales and marketing background, or a little bit more performance-based, a little bit more kind of go, go, go, go, go. Sometimes you need people to put structure in place to help, help save me from myself.

Hopefully it's not too hard.

Well, and it's interesting, as I was preparing for this, I was thinking about our team and, you know, at face value, you could say we've made a lot of great culture hires, people that mesh well together, people that work well together, but they've all been individual culture adds, you know, whether it's, you know, people from different areas of the world or the country with different backgrounds, different, you know, different disciplines and what they do. So it has created this nice culture. And, you know, we're very blessed right now to be in a very nice position as it relates to our internal culture. We've got a great group that are working together. Everybody's rowing in the same direction. We've, you know, got rid of all the folks that weren't necessarily rowing or contributing towards the right direction. But let's talk about that, because I've made some bad hires over the last few years, which is a little embarrassing to admit, given that I'm a guy that's written a book about organizational culture and I've been in the HR space for 20 years. How do you hire for core values? How do you hire for culture? What are some ways that you make sure that candidates are aligned with your company's core values and culture during the hiring process?

Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, the million-dollar question, right? We've all made bad hires. There's no silver bullet, certainly. And I think especially in what we do specifically, like, it's going to be almost like, I need to see your work, I need to see you on the job type. And most sales positions, I mean, we recruit for a lot of sales positions as well, but in particular, what we have done is a very simple exercise. It's called the People Analyzer, and it's essentially a chart that takes your core values in one column, and then you also match it against your top performer. Like if you were to say, if I could replicate, replicate in this example, Courtney, she's been with me since Spark days. Like if I could replicate Courtney across every single one of these core values, that would be the individual I would want to hire over and over and over again. So you take a Courtney and then you match that across the columns of who you're interviewing. So, you know, are they a plus? Are they a minus? Are they a plus minus, meaning do they sometimes get it, do they sometimes not. This is also an EOS tool as well. And then do they get it, do they want it, and do they have the capacity to do it. So those three at the end are non-negotiables, right? That has to be a yes across the board. They have to get it, want it, and have the capacity to do it. And if not, then you're going to know during the interview process as you talk through behavioral-based interview questions, which can be closely aligned with your cultural fit, just based on past experiences that they, you know, talk through. And as you're talking through what's important specifically to them within an organization, we use this tool in every one of our interviews.

Yeah, it's funny you say that. That's where we bring it into the hiring process is in the behavioral component, is making sure that you're not just cherry-picking out a bunch of random behavioral interview questions, but they actually align with your core values. You've got some data that can point to the fact that, hey, look, if people answer this question this way or do things this way, then they're more likely to behave in this way instead of just can they answer an interview question? You know, there's a lot to unpack with what you just said there. But there's a quote, I get butchered for this quote sometimes. I remember I took a real beating on LinkedIn one time for putting it out there, but even a donkey can act like a thoroughbred for 3 interviews is the quote. Yeah, it didn't go over so great with everybody. You know, a lot of, a lot of, whoa, you're calling your people donkeys. But listen, the point is exists, right? You're, to your point, like you don't always know until you work with somebody. And so that can be a hard thing. You know, that's a very easy if you're hiring a contractor, but when you're hiring an employee and you're trying to ask an employee to sit through more than 3 interviews or come into a working interview, that, that can be a little bit harder these days. People are getting very antsy with interview processes, especially because big companies have elongated them to points that are less than desirable. But I do think it's important that you spend a, you know, in small businesses, we'll see it where people make an offer after one interview. Sometimes it's like, dude, you spent an hour with this person, you know nothing about them. That piece of paper in that hour is meaningless. Like, you've got to spend time with somebody. To your point on the two beer thing, if you can't spend enough time with them to really understand it, then you're not doing them a service or yourself. And so I think that's really important. How do you guys structure your interview process? If you were hiring somebody internally, what are all the steps that you go through?

So we start with just sort of a general— whether it's a Zoom or, you know, Google Hangout, we'll do a video interview with them as a first step. Generally, that's one of my leaders, so it's either Dan or Thomas, will do that initial screening and just a 30-minute, like, get to know you. Why are you interested? What do you know about Ketch? And, you know, tell me a little bit about what prompted you to apply. Or maybe we've reached out to them. It could be the other way around too. We're a recruiting company, so we also do recruit for our internal positions too. And from there, if things go well, you know, definitely want to see some interest after the fact. Like, have they followed up with— we certainly say like, do your homework on us, review what you see online, certainly any of our personal LinkedIn reviews, that sort of thing. And then if you want to proceed from there, so we almost give them the out from the beginning. Hey, if it's not a fit from the beginning, I also want to see like the actual true interest following a conversation with one of my leaders. So if they pass that sort of check mark, we'll move to just really like an onsite. So it's an onsite with the leadership team. If it goes well, we'll also bring in other members from our senior recruiting team. Likely one more step beyond that where maybe it's a shadow day because I think it's important to shadow kind of the environment and, and the recruiters that they're gonna be working with. And the final, um, litmus test for us is exactly that, whether it's coffee or lunch, I wanna get them outta the office, out of the four walls and really get to know them as a, as a person and like what motivates them. I have always been a big believer of act like an owner. So what would you do as, this culture add for us, you know, for the future of Catch. What we, what we do is not easy. What you do is certainly not easy. We're in the, you know, people industry, if you will, HR benefits and talent acquisition. So I really want to see that passion come out. So we, we do take a full vetting process and then we also do a bit of a, call it a personality test. It's a very quick, just kind of what drives you, what motivates you, and does that align, you know, with everyone else on the team.

I love that. I, I— that basically aligns perfectly with our process. Can't tell I came from the recruiting world as well, but a couple things there. So you talked about recruiting, and, and you didn't spell it out this bluntly, but I will. Recruiting versus hiring, very different, right? So I see a lot of small business owners, they'll post a job on Indeed, LinkedIn, wherever, and then they will hire from the pool of people that apply to that job. Uh, that is obviously a very limiting form factor. If I say, hey, I'm going to hire one of these whether it be 25 or 2,500 people that apply to this job. Recruiting means I'm actively going out and finding someone who I believe could potentially be a good fit for this role. And that is a lost art from, uh, business owners. And the reason why your firm does so well is because we need others to go out and recruit for us, and why you're so great at what you do. And it is very hard, it is cumbersome, it takes time. It's like anything, any sort of sales, you're going to get a lot more nos than yeses. You're trying to find people that are passively seeking work, not people that are actively seeking work, which is the is the difference between them getting an inbound from you on LinkedIn versus them finding a posting and applying to it. You know, I'm not going to argue about which is better, but obviously, you know, if I'm recruiting, I'm looking for referrals, I'm going to trusted sources, I'm finding people that I know could be that culture fit or culture add. And then if I'm just hiring, I'm kind of waiting back and I'm playing a little bit more passive game with the folks that come to me, which it can be limiting.

I was just gonna say it's a little bit more passive of a strategy. Now, if you're in massive scale mode, like it, I think it has to be multi-prong, right? If you're hiring, you know, 100 people, it is, I think, an approach of the, let's put postings out there. Certainly I've hired some incredible people by a job posting throughout my career, but then there's also the added, I should be doing this also on my own. I know, right? Like the profile and the type of individual And I feel like I take a big sense of ownership in that growth internally for the team. So whether it's me or my team, like we are also proactively reaching out to individuals that we think would be good fits.

Yeah. And always asking your network whenever you're hiring of, you know, the key exercise that we do internally and with our clients, we call it an employee persona exercise where it's, it's the same exact thing you would do if you were creating a buyer persona or an ICP for sales, right? So like, I want to know who exactly my target audience is. Audience is, what they care about, what their demographics are, where do they live, what— where do they hang out, what are their goals in life, all that stuff. And two things will happen when you're done. When you're done, you'll have a really nice, you know, employee persona of the type of person you're targeting for the role. But you'll also probably learn that it's not the same person you thought it was when you first sat down and did the exercise. Um, and, you know, same as when you do a buyer persona exercise, it almost happens the same way every time. You think your best customer is this, but then you realize it's actually this. Same thing happens with employees. I remember one of the first times we We did it with one of our good clients up here in Columbia. When we got done, they were like, dang, like we thought we needed this person who was at this stage in their career. And then we realized the last 4 people we hired that were fit that persona did not work out at all. And here's the actual persona we should be looking for. So highly encourage people, you got to get more targeted, especially if you're going to recruit, because otherwise then you're just spraying and praying and you're looking at a bunch of LinkedIn profiles that, oh, they worked for one of your competitors. Great. That probably is not the key to success.

No, it's not a matchmake for sure.

Yeah. Let's talk about how onboarding fits in culture. So I'm a big onboarding guy. I'm on record many times saying if there's any one element of HR I would spend all my time and energy on, it is employee onboarding. I believe it makes the biggest impact in engagement, retention, performance, all the things. What are some best practices for onboarding employees to ensure that they understand and align with your culture.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I'm right there with you, Matt. Onboarding, I think that's been ingrained in many of us because we've also experienced maybe some not so great onboarding or heard the stories. So I'm a big believer, like think about all the time, energy, and effort it takes just to get a great candidate. They've accepted, and then maybe there's a period of time before they start. Well, what are you doing during that lead time up to their start date? Right? So it's almost like pre-onboarding. Are you calling them? Are you sending them a note, like a welcome packet, whatever it is? There are many times, and, you know, unfortunately it's happened where candidates get cold feet or something happens and they're like, you know what, I can't make the move. I'm, I've decided to stay where I am or accept another opportunity. So the more touchpoints that you can make leading up to their first day, of course, the more the better. Have your HR manager reach out. If you individually can reach out, I definitely believe in that. Set up their systems ahead of time. The worst thing you can do is be like, oh, your computer's not set up. We'll have to load your email and all the things along with it. So, from— go back to your question. I'll get out of the logistics of onboarding because we all know what that is. But I think just culturally, little things like having everyone on the team sign a note. Welcome to Ketch. We're so glad you're here. Have a bit of swag if you want. I don't think there's anything— I know like Mark Cuban and a lot of people are against swag, but I think it's great to like put on almost that like uniform, if you will, like I am part of this company and there is a feeling of pride, whether it's a hat or a hoodie or whatever you want to have that there. And then for sure, we have them go through the story of Ketch. So that is the very first meeting on their very first day. We talk about the history, like where we've been, where we're going, and also like how they fit into the equation. So that's such a big culture piece of onboarding. We're not just having them like, yes, they are filling out paperwork and some I-9 stuff, whatever they need to do. But how do we ensure that our culture— and we talk about core values and the overall impact of the company and what it means to them and their family and then to our community as well. So I think it's creating and telling the story of like how this match— we're confirming the match, right? Like you're here, you're, you're sitting in on your first day and we're confirming that this is a match and we're excited to like really set the tone and foundation for every day to follow.

And I love that. So much good stuff. Twitter once said it's— they have 75 steps from yes to desk. Wow. So, I mean, just to your point earlier, there's a lot of pre-first day stuff that needs to occur. And checklists are obviously paramount there. But yeah, everything from the bottle of wine that needs to be sitting on their desk or the swag or whatever the thing is, all that stuff needs to be done by somebody. I have a question for you. Do you guys use any form of the lockdown?

Yeah, for sure.

All right, let's expand on the lockdown here. So lockdown is a technique that Christine and I used to work for our same large recruiting agency where we cut our teeth early in our career, which is why I think we made fast friends. They had a type. And, um, but what, what is the lockdown and, and how do you guys work on that today?

You know, it's interesting, we've had this conversation, gosh, a lot, um, because look, we are still in a point where, you know, our product is a human being. So have we individuals back out over the years? Yes, like no one's perfect. And so it's perfecting— the lockdown is essentially confirming everything they said when you first spoke with them. Hey, you, you mentioned that you're looking because of X, like I will write that down, underscore it, and continue to revisit it. So you're locking them down throughout multiple conversations moving forward. Every time you speak with them, and it should be over the phone, not text or email, where you're reiterating the things that you heard from the very first conversation And then when you get to that final offer stage, I mean, it is a list. It's like, I'm confirming this is your salary, like all the necessary things, but I'm also confirming that like you want to be part of a small organization that's growing where you have a voice at the table. And then we also talk about counteroffers, right? So there's, there's the counteroffer conversation too, which is a huge one. In 2021, I don't think I've ever seen so many counteroffers in my career. It was just like this mass. You know, reshuffling the, what do they call it, the Great Resignation. So there were a lot of counteroffers that we were dealing with. So we talk about counteroffers, a lot of the other things within that lockdown. But I would say the biggest part is reconfirming to them because we have all short-term memory, right? Like so many things happen between that first contact and when you have made the offer. So just reaffirming everything along the way. So they're like shaking their head yes, like, yeah, you're right. This is exactly why I want to make this move. I'm not going back. And also, by the way, do you know what happens if you accept a counteroffer? And there's a whole list of things that we could highlight of if you accept a counteroffer.

That's awesome. Yeah. So you get that candidate, they say yes, they want to come on board. But in reality, the same way we've got the 75 steps from, from yes to desk, there's 75 steps from the time they say yes to they arrive at that desk. And we need to make sure we remove any potential obstacles. It's a different viewpoint when you're in the recruiting world, right? So for me, this was a critical thing when I was a recruiter because I was like, man, if that person no-shows the first day or doesn't come to work or just is gone after 60 days, I'm not going to get paid, you know, which was my primary concern. But for you as an employer, it's much bigger. We go back to the intro to the episode of like this. Did you just sign on a ticking time bomb or did you just let all the other candidates go out of the process because you got one to say yes? And who's supposedly Mr. Right or Mrs. Right, and now they bail, you know, because they get the counter. Like, that's the most obvious one. If you do nothing else, prepare them for the counter, right? But there's always, you know, for us, we'd go through the— to your point— the checklist of like, you know, you said you really wanted to work in this area, but we're about a 10-minute further drive. Are you going to be okay with that? All the little stuff adds up, man. And it's wild, uh, how quickly people will bail on a job and You know, times are good. They're almost too good.

Absolutely. And even, you know, professionals and executives, like, we've seen it all, right? I mean, life happens and maybe, you know, their significant other has a change in situation. So whatever you can do to avoid that. And also, like, your time is super valuable. Yes. Like my client's time and the, you know, hopefully the commission that my recruiters are receiving. But like, your time is so valuable, especially, you know, where you are as a business owner. If you were to put a dollar amount of of every, you know, minute you spend throughout the day. So to lose all that effort— so yeah, whatever touch points, and you know in your gut, right? Like, I don't think we talk enough about going with your gut instinct. And, and I can, I can reference many times where there was this little nagging feeling and I was like, you know what, I should have gone with my gut. And, and, you know, but you kind of just like brush it off and ignore it. So there's something to be said for trusting your intuition.

Well, I had one a couple of years ago where I let one of my leaders hire somebody that I knew was going to be a bad hire. And she was just emphatic about it. And I was like, you're wrong, but I'm going to let you learn the hard way. And you go ahead and you hire her. And sure enough, you know, 6 months later, we're having the conversation on like, how do we offboard her in a way that makes sense for everybody? And it was, you know, pretty obvious from the jump that it wasn't going to work. And I didn't want to get into a big, I told you so, because like, you know, listen, I don't really want my leaders making bad expenses. Expensive of mistakes if I can help them on the front end, if there's some obvious reasons that I can educate them on. But sometimes in your leadership journey, you gotta just, you gotta earn your stripes, man. And you gotta make a bad hire and you gotta deal with the repercussions of that later. And they're, they're a lot, like we said, like, I mean, they're, they're expensive. They're, they're frustrating. They're challenging. You bumped on two other things I want to hit on real quick before we move on. Uniform. I love the way you put that because in a professional setting, like we don't have a uniform, right? Like there's no, It's not like going to the Jiffy Lube where everybody's wearing the same embroidered shirt that says Jiffy Lube on the front. Like, that's a cool concept to think about of like, what can— what swag can I uniform my people up with in some way, shape, or form? We have mutual friends, Benjamin and Dr. Troy. One of the things that always jumps out about me or to me about those guys is— forget the name of their company. You can help me with that.

But the—

what is it? Culture Cohesion. I didn't want to butcher it. So, but they have kind of like this, this, this color scheme that bleeds from their branding into what they're wearing. Like they're always wearing some yellow camo on site wherever they're doing their thing. And that's from their branding. And I always kind of like the way they pulled that through. That's something we're trying to steal from them right now with our branding, which would go into employer branding here. So I like that uniform concept. But then you also talked about the first ad. I love the way you structure that. So Horst Schultz, if you're out there and you're not familiar with Horst Schultz, he was the original president of Ritz-Carlton. Carlton, uh, COO, and he talks about the first day being just absolutely critical because it's one of the— people remember emotional times in their life. And when you are changing careers, your first day is one of those emotional moments that will be burned into your brain and memory, whether it goes well or poorly. And so we have the opportunity, you know, it's not a day to sit them down in front of a stack of paperwork and fill out these 250 pages and read the handbook and do all this. Like, we can capture their hearts, their minds, their souls on this day. Do not waste the opportunity. Share the vision, share the mission, walk them through the history. The history is something I always skipped until the last handful of hires. I just, for whatever reason, have completely ignored our history. And, and so I've started to weave that in. I guess now we've turned 10 years old, I've started to get a little more, you know, concerned about history. But so I love what you did there. But let's, let's kind of come back to the employer branding piece. Where do you see employer branding playing into this? How do you guys make sure that your brand portrays the type of culture hires you want to make?

Yeah, I mean, employer brand, I think, has also been one of those things that was like a fancy, like, catchword out in Silicon Valley and has now been like, that's just table stakes, right? You have to understand what your employer brand is. How, how does it make you feel? And that's how we always, when we do presentations on employer brand, like, I understand what it feels like to have an iPhone and open it up for the first time when it's brand new. It's a 16 or whatever and be like, wow, like Apple just continues to crush it on innovation and everything. But what does it feel like to walk in the doors of a company, right? Like, that is your employer brand. How— what do the people look like? Are they like all kind of like darting away and not looking you in the eye? Are they welcoming you in? You know, are they excited that you're there and truly exemplifying your brand without you even asking them, like sharing your post on social media? And, and it's not like, you know, everyone has to be like drinking the Kool-Aid, you know. I think that's I think we've all come from that sort of environment. You certainly don't need to do anything like that, but I think it's just, you know, when you're not in the room, when the owner's not in the room, how would your employees describe the work environment? And I welcome every person we interview. I'm like, don't take my word for it. I want you to talk to my recruiting team and understand the day-to-day, the challenges, the opportunities. And that to me is the biggest proponent of employer brand, is what my employees are saying to their friends, relatives, spouses, you know, when you're not in the room.

I love it. Yeah, that's, that's perfect. And it's something that you have to be very intentional about how you create it internally and externally, because it is— I mean, look, it's what— whenever we have a posting, we have people say, hey, how do I get involved with this? I've been waiting. Like, I want to know. And so I think it's something that we've built over a long period of time, but it's not about building like some facade. It's about just shining a light on the things that you're naturally already doing. And making sure that people outside the organization see that.

Congrats on 10 years. Also, don't let that go unnoticed as well. That's a huge deal as a small business. And I think the last thing I'll say about employer brand is community involvement. You know, if you're a small business and you're not somehow involved in the community in which you work, I mean, that to me, you know, I'll have people be like, you're everywhere, you know, you're doing this, you're doing that. And that truly is like a drive of passion because I am so passionate about the communities in which we work and just the entrepreneurial ecosystem.

Yeah, for real. You are everywhere. I was lamenting on that as I was driving home from the last time we hung out out in Charleston, the base camp and Disrupt. I was like, good grief, Christina is somewhere every night, man. Like you are going at it.

It's normally the sidelines of a soccer field, but yes.

Yeah. Yeah. That's been the only good thing about this weather is that I've been off a sideline for a couple days. All right. So let's talk about this. So we've talked about hiring for culture. We've talked about interviewing. We've talked about onboarding. We've talked about branding. Let's talk about like, how do we keep this alive long-term? So it's interesting to think about this and, you know, retaining culture as you're growing fast. I had a good friend post on LinkedIn recently and he was like, man, we made every mistake early on of hiring for culture. Like we created the opposite of what we wanted by not creating anything at all. And so, you know, we didn't, we kind of shunned any HR. Like we thought that was not good for fast-growing companies. It was just going to get in our way. And you know, what we ended up with was a bunch people that didn't like each other. We were not profitable. We weren't doing all the things we wanted to be doing. Um, and he's like, now that I've got very intentional about my hiring, I've got very intentional about culture building. Like, we didn't grow as quickly, but we're much more profitable. It's a much better place to work. It's, it's helping me to just kind of maintain my sanity. Uh, so, so talk to me a little bit about some of the ways that you maintain culture for the long term, both in hiring and beyond.

Yeah. And that is, gosh, I think it's so unique to each company, but of course there's also like this push-pull. So, I was over HR and talent acquisition at Spark, and then I had a CTO who was also our chief evangelist and truly taught me so much about the fact that you can be a really productive and high-performing organization while still having culture. You know, I had come from some corporate environments and it was like no jeans, not even on Friday. Dogs in the office was like a liability suit. And so, I think you have to push-pull. Right? Like, it can't be don't listen to HR whatsoever because you need to obviously follow employment laws and, you know, have some processes in place. Can you make your handbook fun and quirky and whatever? Yeah, but like, talk about your maternity policy, talk about unlimited PTO, whatever it is. And I think like, as you're growing so quickly, things are going to break. You know, I'm sure you've read that in books and heard that from like, things are just going to break and you're like, how did we not think about that? So I think leaning into other individuals that have been there, I think certainly helps. But then also, you know, are you asking your employees, like, what do they want? We had a lot of that culture was driven by our employees. Like, some of them were like, hey, I want to set up a cereal bar. So in the morning, like, we can choose whatever, you know, sugary cereal was set up. Or, you know, we need more Diet Dr Pepper. I mean, there's a lot of developers, so they loved all the, you know, soda and whatnot, kegs in the office. This. We had a keg light actually, so it was like red, yellow, or green. So it was like these were all driven, but they felt the autonomy to do that. And so how do you create those venues for idea creation, for the creativity? Sometimes we said absolutely not, but then there are other times we're like, a beer light, that's kind of a cool idea, like let's talk about that. Or if you want to set up a cereal bar, that's, that's your, you know, you run it, you drive it. So I think that, you know, as you're growing at scale, it's— it really comes down to what innovation can we foster? Are you asking your employees for their feedback? Because I certainly don't have all the answers. So hopefully that was kind of like I went around a little bit, but I think the true essence of that is you have to lean into your employees and people that have been there.

Now, I like where you're going with that though. The title of my book was Ping Pong Is Not a Strategy: How to Create an Awesome Organizational Culture. But I think you, you kind of of, like you said, you went around it, but you landed there is like asking your people what's going to make them feel more appreciated, be happier at work, you know, without sacrificing what we're there to work for. Right. So like, that's, that's always the balance we have is like, once we start going too hard on culture, sometimes it's like, like we're working like 60% of the time. Let's, let's maybe ramp it up a little bit. There's a happy medium in there somewhere where we can be productive. And happy. But, uh, you know, I, I always say there's this— I'm very Pollyanna-ish when it comes to culture. I think that, you know, I've seen people— we've all been around people that are miserable at their job, right? What do they do? It's the same thing. You have a bad meal somewhere, you go and you tell 10 people, you complain, whatever. Like, if somebody has a bad job— like, I've had some of my best friends, I had to stop talking to them as much because every conversation we would have would be about how miserable he was at work. And I'm like, dude, like, I don't— like, I, I care, but I don't— just don't want to hear it anymore. It's exhausting. So I don't want to talk to you. And so So just understand, you know, that, that, that reflex goes beyond just your walls too of like, we talk about employer brand, we talk about the happiness of our people, the happiness of our communities, our families, all that impacted by culture. So Catch Talent, let's talk about it here. You know, who is the ideal company that works with Catch and what types of roles do you typically fill for them?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at our core, small, medium-sized businesses are sort of our niche, our ideal customer, simply because, you know, either they're in growth mode, or they have one person in HR or very few and they're overworked. So they really need, you know, someone to come in and help those efforts. We're a technology recruiting firm at our core, but we also help with the operational positions within that company. So whether it's sales, marketing, HR, finance, we really like to provide that suite of positions for growing technology companies and government contracting. I always say technology because they kind of fit right in, but we do have a separate division with Catch Federal that works all on the government contracting side.

And are there any geographic limitations?

No, no geographic limitations. I mean, we're primarily US, although we're working with some companies that are creating a team here in the US. So they may be, you know, in Europe and trying to set their roots here in Charleston and elsewhere.

That's awesome. Yeah. And Christina sits in Charleston, South Carolina. I sit in Columbia, South Carolina. Same thing, no geographic limitations to your ability to listen to me. So go ahead and tune in from wherever you are. Are in the world. But Christina, it's been a delight to speak to you. My pleasure. And I always learn something every time we talk. And so I'm so grateful for your time today, and I know everybody who listened in as well.

Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Matt.