Donna White Dives Deep Into Hormone Replacement Therapy and Orthobiologics Connection

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everybody. Matthew Gillogly here with the Practice Profit Podcast, and today we have one of our staples of the podcast, Donna White with BHRT Training Academy. And today what we're going to be doing is we're going to be discussing the connection between hormone replacement therapy and orthobiologics. Donna is going to be at our event in— at the end of September, September 29th and 30th, the Business of Orthobiologics, the only event in the history of our industry that is marrying the medicine and the business 50/50 so you can walk out of the plan to go make money. So Donna, give everybody a little bit of your quick background, who you are and what you do.

Well, thank you for that introduction. I've never been called a staple before, but hey, there's a first time for everything.

You know me, I always like to just— I like to keep it real, Donna. You know, I always like to be cutting-edge stuff here.

And that is why you help so many people, because you do that. So thank you. Yes, I am Donna White. I'm the founder of the BHRT Training Academy. And that is what we do. We train providers in how to prescribe and implement bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, which also includes testosterone replacement therapy as well, into their practice. Because hormones make a tremendous difference in people's lives. And so we just— we're the premier training company out there. We're recognized by the Board of Education. And, you know, to be honest, Matthew, we love what we do. I love what we do. I've been on hormones for 30 years. It's, it's my life career.

When'd you start? When you were 10?

Okay, you can tell everybody you were at my 60th birthday party last year.

Yeah, so folks, This is, this is 60 on hormone replacement therapy. So there you go.

Yeah.

And so you created this. And I know people have, people have listened to this before. But I, you know, I know we have a lot of new listeners. You created, you really went on this journey because of your own personal pain and suffering, right?

Yes, you're right. Truth be told, yes, I do know something about hormones. I mean, if you don't know within 30 years in the field, you better, or it's time to leave. So yes, I am very experienced in hormones. But that's why I got into this. In my late 20s, I had a very severe case of PMS. You know, PMS stands for Pretty Mean Sister. Well, that was me. Once a month, I wanted to rip somebody's head off. I had acne that looked like I was still a teenager. I had the hormonal headaches, the period problems, all of that. And then I figured out it was all due to hormones. And so figured out how to— figured out, learned, went on my journey of education, how, you know, how hormones work in the body, what they do, how critically important that they are. So that began my personal use of bioidentical hormones. But you know, the whole hormone concept is more than just the reproductive or sex hormones. It's the stress hormones, it's the thyroid hormones. And, you know, I'm the poster child because, you know, yes, I had the bad case of PMS. I went through perimenopause, you know, postmenopause, I've done all of that, had the stress hormone imbalances, had thyroid issues. You know, I've been there, done it all. And So yes, I'm the poster child. I don't know if that makes me an antique or just old.

No, it doesn't make you an antique. And number 60 is just 60. And, uh, look, uh, 60 in our generation doesn't need to be 60 of our parents' generation, you know. So, so true, you know. Um, so the one thing I want to dive into today is, um, and this is kind of really an emerging field. So I'm of the position that I, I believe— so my own, you know, my own personal journey, my own personal story, I've done a lot of regenerative therapies, orthobiologic therapies. I've had PRP. I've done, you know, basically I've done it all, um, for a number— numerous of numerous injuries that I've had. And then on top of it, I've been on, uh, BHRT since I was 47 and I'm 55. Um, and I know what a dramatic difference it's made In my life. Um, and so what I feel as a patient is that my injuries that I've had, my elbow, my knee, um, and when I do regenerative therapies, orthobiologic therapies, I've noticed a dramatic improvement while I'm on BHRT. And I believe that there's actually gonna have to be a marriage very, very soon in the orthobiologic space. You can't ignore Orthobiologics and B H R T.

You are so right, Matt.

I was gonna say, so talk a little bit. Talk a little bit about that, right? So like that's.

I'm excited that you've considered that. And you know, when we think of hormones, sadly, people think of symptom relief, or we think of menopause, or or you know men losing their testosterone with age, or E D, or what have you. Hormones are so much more than symptom relief. Yes. They are highly effective at addressing symptoms associated with hormone decline. And yes, we know hormones decline. We can talk about that if you want to. But, you know, we all— that's pretty much accepted. We realize hormones decline. However, hormones are not just about getting rid of symptoms. And they're not just related to reproduction. That's kind of a misnomer. We call them the reproductive hormones. Well, there's Estrogen, testosterone, progesterone receptor sites throughout the entire body. They are so much more than reproduction. Yes, they affect directly reproduction. But they're so much more than reproduction and symptom relief. They are what you said they are, they affect every other system in the body. So can I expand on that just a little bit? Absolutely.

Because I was gonna ask you to expand on that. Because If I'm— let's just— so I'm a, you know, we have a lot of orthopedic surgeons and PNMRs that go into orthobiologics. It's kind of the natural progression. They have very little knowledge and information with regards to BHRT. So talk about that connection and talk about the importance of it.

So let's do— we'll go there. But as I was, you know, letting you know that there are hormone receptors in every single, you know, cell of the body throughout our body, throughout our body, and hormones are the most powerful signaling molecules in the body. So what systems, and you brought up one important one, what systems do they influence? Well, they influence and directly impact brain function. There's tremendous number of hormone receptors in our brain. Well, that means the brain needs some. I want mine to have enough 'cause I wanna think and I don't want, you know, I want, you know, hormones revolumize the hippocampus. I wanna be able to think and, you know, offset cognitive decline. But let's start top down. It's brain, it's It's eye health, oral health, cardiovascular health. The greatest concentration of hormone receptors anywhere in the body is not the male genitalia, it's the heart. And so our cardiovascular system, so brain, bones, cardiovascular system, reproductive system, immune function, inflammation. So if you're talking about any type of therapy implement— you know, implementation— Don't we want to put that and use that in a body that's not, you know, struggling with inflammation? How many diseases are associated these days with inflammation? Um, all of them?

Yes.

Or, you know, at least 90%. Well, you know, testosterone, estrogen, powerful anti-inflammatories, powerful effect on the immune system. So there's this beautiful complement. And then, you know, specifically what you beautiful complement between hormones and other modalities that we're doing to help, you know, with regenerative medicine or the regenerative aspect of medicine for your patients. So just if we were just talking about bone, you know, hormones play a critical role in slowing down osteoclastic activity, which is the removal of old bone, and other hormones like testosterone and progesterone. By the way, estrogen slows down down, you know, osteoclastic activity so we're not removing too much bone too quickly. But it's testosterone and progesterone that are bone-building hormones. So why wouldn't we want optimized levels of hormones? And we know hormones decline with age, but do you know that they're declining earlier than, you know, than what we knew in the past? There's emerging data coming out now that's showing that our young men Our sons in their 20s and 30s, they don't make the level of testosterone their grandpas made when they were 20 and 30.

I totally believe that. I just had this conversation this weekend in Michigan at an Orthobiologics Cadaver Event, and we had this exact same conversation that the testosterone levels and the, you know, there could be some relation to just the fact that they're not as active and the obesity and social media and they're not as much sleep, like all of those factors, the cannabis. But yes, I totally see that connection 100%, right? Like that just makes total sense.

And even without, yeah, even without that, the normal, or what we have thought all these years was the normal decline of testosterone, you know, by age 60, men are only making about 40% of the testosterone they made in their 20s. And then, you know, with women, or due to stress and all that, you know, we kind of live on a dirty planet. But Stress, stressors. We read cortisol tests, you know, I've read thousands and thousands of them. Cortisol interferes with our hormone production and it's catabolic. So that's affecting muscle health, that's affecting, you know, bone building, that's affecting all of our systems as well. So when we're talking about, you know, hormone restoration or balancing or, you know, just making sure, you know, the patients have optimized hormone levels, we're talking about more than just estrogen and progesterone and testosterone. We're talking about looking at the cortisol, the stress hormones, and thyroid and insulin. All of these hormones play a very, very critical role in inflammation, tissue repair, and so forth.

What have you seen with regards to— so you've been doing this 30 years, you know, working at numerous clinics, and I know you've helped a number of well-known doctors build their, their BHRT programs. But what have you heard, um, you know, anecdotally about somebody that is recovering from, let's say, a surgery, um, or an injury? Like, let's just talk surgery. What have you seen? Have you seen any connections, like, to people that have optimized hormones and their ability to recover faster?

Yes, and recovery— and data supports even recovery from that nasty Little— not nasty, that nasty, awful virus that affected us worldwide. That's played a role in people's recovery.

Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a whole other conversation that'll get censored by the FDA that we won't go to. Yeah, the government. Yeah, we'll get a knock on the door on that one. But yes.

Yes. So tissue repair, recovery. Yes. And one way to think about it, I like, you know, this— I'm formulating this in my mind because I'm really getting excited about your conference. and having the opportunity to work with some of these providers. You know, your regenerative medicine approaches, those are the big guns that can really impact these patients' lives. But don't you want them to have the long-acting effect? What a beautiful synergy to, you know, put in that big powerful, whether it's surgery or the stem cells or whatever your modality that patient needs, to put them in a body that's going to recover quicker or a body with less inflammation. And continued effect, because you want to keep building bone. You want to keep giving the— making sure that, you know, the body has the right nutrients and hormones to build that muscle and tissue repair. So you want that long-term effect, even with, you know, with aesthetics like the fabulous lasers, you know, resurfacing that we want, you know, we women want so that we don't look 60 when we actually are 60.

Hey, hey, hey, I know guys that like that too. So, you know, no.

Hey, great. So anyways, we want to use those big guns. But if you've— if you're getting that fabulous treatment, Well, you still need— after the fact, you still need to use sunscreen and skincare and all those things. It's very similar. We want to keep all of those great, powerful chemical messengers in the body at optimized levels for that long-term effect. So I just, I just see the complement. Yeah, I see the complement.

I have a, I have a couple of my doctors, orthopedic surgeons that are in OrthoBiologics, and they have gotten on the BHRT wagon. And I probably have 5 or 6 of my clients that are actively doing it. And they'll say right off the bat— How are they doing? They will say right off the bat, they can't prove it scientifically. We don't have a double-blind, you know, peer-reviewed paper. I'm sure it's— somebody's working on it somewhere. But they'll tell you, they'll say the patients that are on the hormone replacement therapy prior to the blood draw and the procedure and the injection, who've been on at least, let's say, a month, 4 to 6 weeks, they see dramatically improved and longer sustained healing than somebody who is not on it.

Well, that totally does not surprise me in the slightest, and we hear the same thing as well. Because if you think about, you know, hormones control the, um, the effect of stem cells, or every stage of stem cells, like the, the stem cell life, the establishment, the expansion, the maintenance, the differentiation. They're— they, they direct and tell these stem cells where to go and what to do. So we need— I mean, it's kind of— I don't mean this in an indignant way, but it's kind of a no-brainer. And, and your providers, I, I know some of the people that you work with, they want those optimized outcomes.

Absolutely.

Because they don't want to be like every other, you know, you know, their competition. They want to be, you know, ahead and, you know, beyond. And that's one way to do it.

Well, and it's okay. So one of the basic fundamentals that we teach here at Mavericks is that you never sell à la carte. You always sell a package, right? And so like when, if you're doing open heart surgery, let's say you need quadruple bypass, you're going to get all 4 done and then you're going to have medications that you take and you're going to have rehab. You're going to have, you're going to ask you to change your diet. The reason why they do all that is they want to maximize and optimize the ability for the body to heal so that this doesn't happen again. Well, the same thing is true with any type of medicine, and especially specifically in orthobiologics. To me, if you are doing just one shot and you aren't making sure that they have optimized hormones in and/or peptides— and we'll talk about peptides here in just a minute—

Mm-hmm.

And, um, and, you know, potentially doing laser or shockwave therapy therapy or something like that. Now you have the ability to create— if you're approaching, if you're approaching that injury from 5 different ways, you're going to optimize the ability for that person to heal. Um, so which allows you to charge a premium price, which allows you to differentiate yourself from your competition so that you're not having to compete on price. And besides, who wants to have the low— who wants to be the low-cost leader in medicine? Like, could you imagine going to the cardiologist, goes, tell you what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna give you 2 arteries for free if you sign today. You need a quadruple bypass, I'll give you 2 for free. I'm in there anyway, right?

Scary thought.

Yes, you would run, right? You would run away. Uh, but let's talk about peptides. So you—

Well, Matthew, can I say one thing? You brought up some real important points of packaging and, um, you know, programs and, and being all-inclusive of everything that the patient needs. I think there's 2 important points. Yes, having been in this field for 30 years, BHRT is not an à la carte or not best served as an à la carte modality. It is best packaged as well. Better outcome for the patient, better for the provider. There's many reasons why, and I'm sure that you teach this so very well to your clientele and your practitioners that work with you. But the other The other point is that with bio— okay, so you're doing this big procedure or treatment or whatever, but with bioidentical hormones, those patients stay with you.

Yes.

It's not a one-and-done thing. This is long-term care. You know, maybe it takes 2 or 3 or, you know, 4 or 6 months to get them, you know, the hormones into balance. But even after that, those patients still need to see you Twice a year minimum.

Yep.

No less than once a year, which I don't recommend that, but they're going to stay with you. That, I mean, that's— they need it, but that's residual income. So those are lifetime patients.

Well, and so they're going to come in, you get to engage in a conversation, you get to hear what's going on in their life, and they might go, you know what, I've got a lower back issue, or, you know, my— and you can When you learn the skills that we're going to teach at the event, a lot of those extra-articular injuries or issues, when you have the ultrasound and you have the training from Ryan and Colin, which we'll be providing at the event, then you can do an ultrasound right there and make a diagnosis and away you go. You don't have to wait for a lot of these. I mean, if it's intra-articular, yes, you have to go in and do the MRI, but for a lot of the times, most of these injuries that these people are— that your patients are dealing with. They're the elbow injury, they're the, they're the, you know, the knee injury, the— it's not an ACL injury, it's a, or a, you know, a shoulder issue or what have you, or a lower or a lumbar issue. So, you know, a lot of this can just be handled right then and there. So when they're coming in, you're continually cementing that relationship so that they know, like, and trust you. You're engaging in conversation, and it's a nice financial annuity, right? Like, that's the— because, you know, we always talk about monthly Recurring revenue. How do I get it so that people are going to be coming in and paying me regularly?

So, um, yes, you are so right. And, and the patient demand— these patients that you like, the examples you're just giving, those patients have hormone problems. They're going somewhere else if they're not coming— if your providers are not doing bioidentical hormones, those patients are going somewhere to get them, to the tune of $9.9 $9.926 billion is the expected market in 2026. $9.926 billion BHRT is expected in 2026. The patient demand is there, and it's the same patient.

You know, you bring up an interesting point. So I've heard this from a couple of people that have been in this space for quite some time, and they go, well, you know, when I first started, there was nobody in the market. Now, like here in Charlotte where you and I live, you know, when I first started in 2014, there might have been like one other place doing it for guys, right? Now there's 25. Do you think the market's getting oversaturated?

Oh gosh, no.

How was that softball?

Okay, well, you know how many— there's, you know, a million— how many millions of women are in Menopause. Gosh, what is that?

Every day. How many, how many millions of women enter into perimenopause or menopause every week?

Yes, there's a lot of hormonal women out there and testosterone, you know, deficiency or, you know, not optimal levels. No, there— and what is really important that there are not enough providers to meet the demand. So That in mind. And with all of the awareness now, you know, bioidentical hormones aren't new. They've been around since the 1940s. They've been around a long, long time. But back when I got into this way into the, you know, early '90s, you know, there weren't that many people doing bioidentical hormones. Awareness was just coming out. But now they're much more commonplace, but— and there's not enough providers. And I will take it one step further, Matthew. There's not enough well-trained providers.

Yes.

You know, just because you went to a weekend course doesn't mean you know how to optimize hormones. You need comprehensive training. And those patients don't stick around very long with a provider that's not very well trained. And providers, you know, why, why wouldn't you want to go to a practice where you get hormones and your hip taken care of or your Your shoulder, you know, from somebody just like what you said, you know, like, and trust. Yep.

So yeah. There is, you know, maybe, I don't know, what percentage do you think of the people that, let's just say people that are over the age of 40, this is, and I'm, this is total guess, like how, what percentage do you think of the people that need to be on hormone replacement therapy, HRT? How many, what percentage of those people do you think are on it and on it effectively? 2%? 4%?

What percentage need to be on hormones?

And, and are on it the correct way. So like, I know it's like 90% of people over the— and I'm being conservative. Like, I think that every American—

It's a number of factors like stress, for example. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. So basically 90, 95% of Americans over the age of 40 should be on BHRT. Would you say that they should be evaluated for their levels?

Okay, I'll put it that way. So better said.

Yeah. Okay. Better said. More. Yeah. Much, much cleaner. And then a large percentage of those people need to be on it. But the reality is, is they're just not getting the access because my point being is the market is not saturated. It doesn't— you can have a point.

Yes.

Yeah. You can have one on every corner.

It's not saturated. And there's still poor education as far as training for providers to a certain degree, but also the public. Unfortunately, the public in many cases are still confused. They're still concerned about hormones because of one poorly done study back in 2002, but they're confused and they think that estrogen causes breast cancer. Actually, it prevents breast cancer. That testosterone is associated with increased risk of prostate cancer.

No.

Men with low testosterone have a higher risk. So it's up to us, you know, you, it's up to me, it's up to your providers. We need to get the word out, not because we're trying to make a buck. We're trying to help people and have better outcomes with, you know, orthobiologics and everything else. But people need to— they're curious. As I said, the demand is very, very high. But they still— we still need more providers that are well educated, and they can help these patients make choices and offer them very comprehensive care.

Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine my life at 55 without hormones. I just can't.

I mean, why would we?

I mean, I know what my level was at 47. It was 92. That's the level of a woman. For men, it should be between 700 and 900. I mean, I can't imagine, I can't imagine my life. I mean, I'd be close to dead. Let's, let's talk about it.

It's not just the symptoms. It's really not. You are protecting yourself from so many things. You know, I know I mentioned this before, but you're— it's, it's helping offset, slow down, and prevent the diseases associated with aging.

Yep. Okay, so let's talk about a little bit of a— I don't want to call it a controversial topic. Some orthopedics might, some of the PM&R might not. Let's talk about peptides. Now, I'm a big fan, right? I have my, I have my little pharmacy in my refrigerator, right, of the different stuff that I take. Talk to us about peptides. What do you, uh— I'm going to start with just a general question. You a fan, not a fan of peptides? What are your kind of your general feelings on it?

Yes, a fan. And just like how we're talking about what a beautiful complement hormones or optimized hormone levels are to regenerative medicine or orthobiologics, same with peptides. So hormones are long-acting, peptides are slow-acting. Why wouldn't you want both? Why What it's, it's, it's a similar, you know, concept. We need, you know, peptides can do some very specific things, go in, do the job. But we still need the optimized levels of hormones.

Mm-hmm.

And they stick around and last longer, though they act on different receptors. You know, hormones go into, for the most part, act inside the cellular receptor. There is some cell surface action, but mostly inside. And peptides act, you know, they're on the, you know, the membrane, the outer surface, and they're water soluble. Hormones are fat soluble. So there's some differences. It's not an either/or question. It's a yes and answer to that.

Because you work— that sort of goes back to the whole thing is we're approaching the problem in the patient from multiple different directions to get them the best possible outcome and the best kind of care that we possibly can, right? The whole point is to— the industry is to heal the patient, right? That's the number one goal. I always tell people, you know, you hear me talk about money and charging premium prices. It never supersedes the fact that never gets in front of the fact that we're going to give the patient outstanding, outstanding care. We're never going to prescribe something to them that's not going to be a benefit to them. Okay. I don't want people to think I'm all about the money. I like money. Um, I enjoy making it, and I enjoy— I enjoy more helping my doctors make money. Um, do you have any peptides that you are a real big fan of, like specifically?

Uh, not so much because I don't— I haven't used a lot of them yet, but I'm going to. Peptides, you can be— with specificity, you can go in and affect so many specific things. But hormones are the foundation that you need to keep and maintain. And then, you know, go in and target whatever you want, whether you want the ones for the skin or growth hormone, or, you know, whatever your peptide of choice is.

Yeah, there's literally thousands of them out there. There's like, there's thousands of them. You know, a lot of—

I just came from speaking at the World Peptide Conference last weekend. So Yes, growing, growing interest and expertise in that realm now.

Yeah. You know, so for me, and when I've done it, I've been prescribed BPC-157. That is a little controversial for some folks because they feel that it is off-label for that particular issue. But again, I know a lot of people that do it. Thymosin alpha, thymosin beta, right? All of these, those are kind of the standard ones. So, you know, again, do your own research on that. But it's, again, I talk as a consumer. Okay. I talk as a patient. I have zero medical training other than this, our conversations that you and I have and hanging out with my doctors. But I will tell you as a patient, the outcomes are phenomenal. Like I noticed a dramatic difference in the healing when I've been on 157. Um, I, when I'm very active working out quite a bit, uh, or playing, you know, tournament season with golf, I'm on 157 on a a pretty regular basis because it just helps me recover. It's fantastic. So, um, what other final thoughts? So final thoughts with regards to orthobiologics, BHRT, and the marriage. What would you, what would you say to someone who is just looking to learn more and discover more and educate themselves?

Um, I guess some of the tips that I always like to share is, first of all, learn to properly assess hormone imbalance. Learn very well how to assess the symptoms. Learn how to recognize them of seven hormones. Again, like I said earlier, this is not just about estrogen and testosterone. You know, it's really important to be assessing symptoms and testing cortisol four times during the day, DHEA, all of the good thyroid panels. Insulin, and then estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. So learn to test properly. There's four ways to test hormones. Learn them all, and when to test each one, and when to use where when which test to use at which time. And then it's so important to learn you know comprehensively how all of these hormones interact and interfere with each other work together. So an in-depth knowledge of the hormones and how specifically how to prescribe them or get them into balance, because not all hormones are deficient. Some women make too much testosterone or too much estrogen or too much stress hormones. You've got to learn how to get hormones in balance, and it's not done very well at a one-day conference. It is really—it's it's not all that complicated, but it takes. More than that and learn all the different dosing forms, whether it's creams, oral— not oral estrogen or oral testosterone, but there are some orals— creams, oral pellets, patches, vaginal delivery, all of the different delivery systems. You need to learn how to use them all. Don't go learn just one dosing form. You'll never be able to help your patients very well. But just integrate This approach will make your outcomes, you know, that much more effective, and you'll have happier patients, and they'll want everything else you have to offer.

Yes.

If you win over a patient and you get that woman sleeping better or get her libido back up or mood or nice, whatever, you know, address, you've got a patient there and you've got her Her significant other, and they want your aesthetics. They want your oh you can help my shoulder. They they want everything you've got when you change their lives, and that's what this type of medicine, whether it's peptides or orthobiologics or hormones, that's what we have the opportunity to do in the world right now. Agreed, and it's only going to get better. Evidence-based. Okay, let's just throw that in there. There you know I get that question all the time. Oh, there's no research. Is there research to support, you know, bioidentical hormones? Au contraire. Can we talk for the next 5 hours?

Yeah, there's plenty of research. There's— and it's phenomenal supporting data. Um, and then just talk to people that are on it. Like, I can tell you personally, my own numbers significantly improved and significantly better. My, my, uh, bone density, my muscle mass, my body fat from 30% down 16%, like, yeah, I'm changing my diet too and working out and all that stuff. I have the energy.

Part of the foundation.

Yep, part of the foundation.

So it is part of the foundation, and hormones absolutely affect weight. Any, any hormone imbalance will affect weight gain and metabolism.

Yeah, well, great. So Donna, people want to find out more, how do they find you? Where do they go?

bhrttrainingacademy.com.

Great. And Donna will be be in Dallas at the Business of Orthobiologics event, otherwise known as the BOB. That is the acronym that we— well, there's actually 2 O's, so we didn't want to call it the boob, so we're gonna just go with the BOB.

Um, okay.

So there you go. Yeah, you know me, I'm always good for a quick, uh, joke. Anyway, so join us in Dallas September 29th and 30th, and you know, there's a huge opportunity that exists out there for you to move away from the world of insurance-based care. If you've tried to start cash-based services in the past and it hasn't worked, or you're struggling getting over that magical $50,000 a month, or you are doing 6 figures a month and you want to quote unquote exit the practice so you don't have to be there every single day, get your butt to Dallas. In this post, you'll see a code where you can link where you can sign up. And if you time it right, you'll get a savings of $500. You'll see the Code in this post, and Donna will be there so you can hang out and talk with her and ask her all kinds of great questions. So thanks, Donna, for being on. I appreciate it. Yeah, great. Always opportunity. So funny, you and I have to go on the road to hang out with each other, and we live like three miles away from each other. So got to fly to Miami to go to dinner. So you know. Oh well. I don't mind. I don't mind. Doesn't bother me one bit either. All right, everybody, we'll see you in Dallas. Thanks, Donna. Appreciate it.

Thank you, Matthew.