Choosing The Relationship You Want, Overcoming Jealousy, and Understanding Men/Women (w/ Candice Horbacz)

Sam.

What's up, everybody? Welcome to another one of our special series of interviews. It's such a pleasure to be back with you today and a real pleasure to be with Candice Horback, who is here today to talk to us about a whole bunch of different things. I have so many questions I want to ask her. In case you haven't come across Candice before, she's a former adult entertainment performer, an entrepreneur in the production and Web3Space, an organizer of a spiritual retreat centered on psychedelics and wellness, mother of two boys, a wife, and the host of the podcast Chatting with Candice. And I was so excited when Candace reached out because I thought, you know what? We're gonna have so much to talk about, and we can cover so many different subjects. I'm fascinated by people from all different walks of life and the unique perspectives that they can bring as a result of the unique path that they have lived. So, Candice, welcome to Love Life.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you.

Me, too. Me, too. I. I know that people are going to have lots of questions for you. I suppose I wanted to jump straight in the deep end when it comes to dating and finding love, because everyone can relate to having something that they take with them into dating, into finding love, that they feel holds them back, they feel is going to make life more difficult for them. They may call it baggage, but it's the reason. Either they're telling themselves it's going to be difficult to find love, or it's a reason that other people are telling them it's going to be difficult to find love. What has been your experience of that?

Well, I would say that I have an obvious suitcase that's probably heavier than most going into relationships. I think a lot. Lot of baggage, as people call it, is a lot of things that maybe you haven't worked out yourself and maybe you're not ready for a relationship, which is like a hard pill to swallow. I think you find the partner that's right for you at the right time, so they'll help you overcome, like, certain challenges and kind of meet you where you're at. So with my husband, I think the most. One of the most beautiful things about our relationship is we've been together now for about 12 years, married for seven. So he met me soon as I was entering the industry at, like, a very, very modest level. I was only webcamming, and it was all implied, like, centerfold kind of shoots. Nothing too explicit yet. And we kind of have been on the journey together. Like, we've evolved and grown together. So when. When we met each other, we were at a much more immature place, like, within ourselves. And then our relationship reflected that. So I think that partially that was to our benefit because we weren't, like, thinking marriage, we weren't thinking kids. We were relatively young and just, like, experiencing excitement and all of the nuance and kind of living this more outlier kind of lifestyle. And that was attractive to both of us. I think where I got really lucky is once the relationship and both of us started to mature, as we were able to do that together. And it wasn't easy at all. Like, there was a lot of trials and tribulations, especially within that, with me going through that industry and really navigating, like, who is Candace? Like, what does she want? And is that in disalignment with, you know, Eva and what she wants in her career and just kind of, I guess, overcoming all of that together.

So Eva was your stage name, I suppose, or your performer alias, and right then there's Candace, you. Right. And what were. Could you speak, you know, only within the realms of what you're comfortable with, but could you speak about what the trials and tribulations were during that time when you were both at a different stage of your relationship? You're in an industry that a lot of people would find difficult to even understand how to navigate the challenges of that within a monogamous relationship. You can tell me if it wasn't monogamous or not, but what were your. Were the trials and tribulations the typical ones? And if so, what were they? And were they things that we wouldn't expect?

So I think the obvious one is jealousy, and it's going to be the one that everyone kind of is like, how did he get over all of that? And I always say, like, I don't want to speak, like, for him, but I can share, like, what we've discussed and, you know, privacy in private. And a lot of it is, like, it's a lot of. It's his personality, honestly. So he would lean into anything uncomfortable. So for him specifically, it's kind of getting down to first principles of why you feel a certain way or why you believe a certain thing. And ironically, I mean jealousy on my end, too. So we were monogamous, then we played around with kind of an open relationship, and then that was a huge learning curve for everybody because I found out I'm, like, wildly jealous. Like, I was wildly jealous, and I kind of had to take his lead. So. Because he had been so understated standing with me, getting into the, the porn industry. And we've really had to like, look jealousy in the face and be like, well, where is this coming from? Like, why, why do I have this sense of ownership over another person? And that is kind of like what led him into accepting my decision to get in in the first place was that he didn't want to kind of get in the way of that decision. For me, he's like, I hope I'm here at the end of it, but like, you have to make a decision for yourself in this, in this regard. But yeah, we played around with like, the rules of our relationship. And I would say the huge thing takeaway for most people with that is you get to craft your own relationship, you get to make your own boundaries, and you don't have to necessarily go into this perfect cookie cutter relationship that society has drawn out for you. So no, it doesn't mean you have to be non monogamous. Like, absolutely not. It doesn't have to be that extreme. But you can kind of paint the exact relationship that you want. So, I mean, I've, I've seen couples where they can't have a girl's night. Like, the girl can't go out with just her girlfriends because the guy will get wildly jealous. And to me, that's so unhealthy. You have to be able to be an independent person and then also kind of have like a Venn diagram where you, you intersect in the middle, but you still remain whole on your own. And a lot of people don't want to sit with that discomfort. And they're like, well, she's going out and she's dressed a certain way. So that means that she's trying to seek attention and all of like those common narratives that we hear. And it's like, no, you have to be able to really have real trust. And, and that, that means brutal honesty. And that also means like total freedom. So obviously we took it at a very different level when it comes to total freedom. And again, you don't have to take it there. But that to me is what love is. Love is freedom. So we just, we learned a lot about each other and then a lot of what was ours and what wasn't. So for me, a lot of the jealousy that I had was modeled for me. When I was younger, I had female role models that, like, if a man was watching a movie and would be like, oh, Catherine Zeta Jones is so beautiful, that would be an argument for a week straight, like, that poor Guy would not hear the end of it. And to me, I thought that was normal, that was acceptable, and that was healthy. The older I got and the more I was kind of faced to understand my own jealousy, I was like, that creates the most fragile relationship on the planet. Because if my love is dependent on me being the most beautiful woman in the room, at some point that's not going to be true. I'm going to go into the wrong room, I'm going to get older, whatever. Whatever the case may be. So I. How do I create a relationship that's not dependent on something that's totally out of my control? And it's understanding that we can all appreciate beauty and it doesn't take away from the beauty that you have and that also that your relationship isn't that fragile. Your relationship isn't built on something so superficial. There's more of like a spiritual connection and it doesn't take away from that. So I think a lot of us kind of feel this competition all of the time.

I find what you just said so interesting and so relatable. That idea I like. I love the example of, you know, someone saying that Catherine Zeta Jones was beautiful and that being an argument for a week straight. I feel like some version of that is so relatable for so many people. Are there things that you typically see that you think just are? You know, there are extremes of deciding what we're going to be jealous about and not jealous about. And you've lived that world, but in everyday relationships that aren't playing in those extremes. Are there things that you objectively think are not worth getting jealous about for anybody? And what do you think those things are?

I think alone time is. Is huge. Whether your partner wants to go out to, like, the beach by themselves just to like, meditate or have time in nature, or if they want to hang out with their close group of friends without you, if they want to be able to go to a movie without you. Like, you have to allow space for that independ. I think it's. It's really silly to get worked up over that. I think jealousy too. It's a lot of. We're comparing. So you went out three times with your friends this month, and I haven't gone out at all. So it's not even really about that. It's just more of you feeling a lack. So this one thing my husband said to me, and it rings in my ear all the time because we just had our second baby and it's. You ask for support, not permission. So if you're always assuming the best out of your partner, which is also a great piece of advice that I have been given. It's like, if he has been working all day and he gets home and he just goes on the couch and wants to take a nap, I have to assume, like, he really needs that. He's not doing it to be avoidant. He's not doing that because he doesn't care how my day was. It's just constantly assuming the best out of your partner. So when you reframe it that way, it's a lot more difficult to get mad. And that works with jealousy as well. So instead of automatically making the worst assumption out of what could be happening, you assume the best out of them. And it's. You have to take a step back and say, has. Have they given me any indication, any evidence that they're not committed, that they don't love me, that they don't care, that they don't want what's best for me, that they are going to run away and abandon me? All of these little things we tell ourselves, which is why we justify our jealousy. So if the answers to all of those things are no, well, then you have to ask yourself, well, why am I jealous? Then? Like, what is this really coming from? And. And sit with that. And for everyone, it's going to be a little bit different. But at the end of the day, it does tend to stem from some sense of fear or some sense of, like, abandonment somewhere. So you just kind of have to sit with it to find, like, your own answer for that.

And how would you apply that to. You know, you use the example of seeing someone on a screen and saying they're attractive. Do you think that across the board, objectively, when it comes to real life and you see people walking down the street, do you think there's a kind of objective truth about what we should be okay with when it comes to observation and noticing things out loud there?

So I think, yeah, there's. There's obviously a difference.

Apologies for interrupting you. But I think that, you know, we have a lot of women who come to us and they will say, you know, he. I catch him looking at people a lot, or I catch him doing things in front of me that makes me feel disrespected and pluck out his eyes. Huh?

You know what I mean? I'm sorry to, like, make fun because. And I have, like, to any woman, or, like. Or man, if this is triggering you, I mean, I have been there. Like, I have been that wildly jealous and again, it has to do with you. It has nothing to do with your partner's behavior. And you have, like, first and foremost, you have to come to that realization before you can have any growth in that area. Like, it is not about the other person. Um, second of all, like, we are all visual creatures and men especially. So there's a way, like, if he's staring at another woman and undressing her with her with his eyes, like, right in front of you, of course, like, that wouldn't make me feel great either. But a simple glance, which is often more the case that that of what a man's doing. It's like, oh, he just, like, noticed a beautiful woman walk in the room. Of course. Like, of course. Right. And that doesn't take away from your beauty, and that's no slight to you. I don't find that to be disrespectful. It's like he's just noticing an objectable truth. Like, a truth. Like something beautiful just entered the space. Glance. Okay, come back, and I'm gonna give you my attention again. Go back to those questions. Has he shown you any indication that he's gonna leave? Not committed, doesn't care about your happiness, doesn't love you? Like, go back to those questions. And honestly, like, it sounds harsh, but it is an insecurity. So you do have to kind of figure out why that emotion is bubbling up with. Within yourself. So jealousy, for some reason, is an emotion we've never been taught to. To challenge or overcome or grow out of. It's an acceptable behavior where if I got angry and I, you know, chose physical violence as my expression of that anger, we would be like, that's not okay. That's not a healthy expression of anger. But for some reason, we don't say that when it comes to jealousy. Like, any form of expression is. Is valid right now for a lot of people. And I think that we kind of have to reframe that relationship because there is a lot of unhealthy jeal.

It's funny you said that phrase, any form of expression is valid these days, because I was literally about to ask you what you make of the phrase your feelings are valid, which always struck me as a. As a fairly dangerous phrase. But it's a phrase that, you know, I've seen people wear on T shirts. Your feelings are valid. You know, it's that ubiquitous term that sounds good, and it also is very reassuring, right? If we feel jealous and if we feel like our partner is, you know, they just looked at this person over here. And this is, you know, like, bubbling up inside me. And now, you know, I may not mention it, but I'm now passive aggressive for an entire dinner because of something that just happened before we came, before we arrived. It's. It's something that when we hear your feelings are valid, we. It feels reassuring. It feels good. Like, yes, my feelings are valid. You're right. You know, I have a. I have a right to feel these things. What do you make of that phrase? Do you feel like it sort of takes away the accountability that we have for actually exploring those things?

Absolutely. I'm not a fan of that phrase either. I try to take more of a stoic approach. And obviously I'm human, so I fall short of that all the time. But it's. To not let your emotions kind of control you, you need to be in control of your emotions. So it's really. Especially with small children. So I love comparing people to toddlers because a, like, gets them really, like, riled up. But it also provides, like, a very stark example of, like, whoa, on. In my worst moments. Like, yes, that is how I behave as, like, I'm just like a very big toddler. So when they're having a fit and they're in this emotional side of their brain, they're not going to be able to go into the rational side of their brain. So when you're, like, overcome with jealousy, you're not going to be able to again go to that rational side of your brain and be like, no, he loves me, he takes care of me, he. My needs, whatever, right? We go on dates, like, given me no signs that he's going to all of a sudden abandon me for this waitress that he just glanced at. So you have to somehow get your way, your. Your mind out of that emotional kind of like, hypnotic state and, like, come become grounded again. So a quick way, I forget who. Who teaches this, but if you kind of count back from five, so like, five, four, three, two, one. You can start getting into more of your rational brain, and then that'll help kind of get you out of that emotional state, and then you can reassess. But not all of your emotions are valid. Not all of your thoughts are valid. Like, think about the voice in your head. Most of the time. We are so mean to ourselves like that. That voice in our head is, the sky is falling. It is like Chicken Little. Like, you're not good enough. You're not worthy of love. You're not pretty enough or slim enough or buff enough or whatever it is. So Think of how many times throughout one day, like, take a. Like a journal and actually try to write it down and see how many times that voice or that feeling wasn't valid. Like, if you just need more concrete evidence. So, no, I don't think that all emotions are valid. I think that maybe, like, again, it goes to, like, your truth, too, which suggests that there is no objection, like, objectable truth, which I don't like either. So it's like, to get your place to a softer, more open space, and then you can talk about it with your partner. But if you're going to have these conversations around jealousy and reframing and crafting your relationship, I think you need to provide trust on both ends as well. So if he's going to be vulnerable with you and tell you, yeah, I did find her attractive, but that doesn't mean anything. Like, I really. I'm sorry if the way I was looking at her made you feel less than, like, I find you beautiful and I love you, blah, blah. You can't then attack him. You can't then be passive aggressive because you. He trusted you enough to be vulnerable. So you don't want to punish your partner by then saying, well, you know, I don't know, just like, punishing him later for being honest because then he's not gonna be honest again.

I'm really glad you said that because. And I like the use of words in him saying that is counterintuitive, right? That him saying that he found someone attractive is vulnerable. But you're right, there is a. In the right context, you know, if he's walking around going, she's attractive, she's attractive, that's not vulnerable. But if you're having an open and honest conversation and you're saying something made you feel uncomfortable and he's vulnerable about sharing with you the honest truth, but he grounds that in safety for you. You know, I love you, you're beautiful. I'm not going anywhere. You know, it just. Sometimes that happens that that is trust. It's trusting someone with information like that that could backfire for them and probably has a lot in their lifetime. And I think that's one of the things that certainly men encounter a lot is that. And I. And of course, women have their version of it is if I actually say this, they say they want to know this, but. But when I say it, all hell breaks loose, and it never goes well. So we sort of learn to, you know, even put shame around those things and say, God, I must be off. I must be an awful person. And I just must never voice this about myself. And, you know, I think that that's true. I actually think that's true of, of porn in relationships too. Right. We said this on a recent podcast. We did. But, you know, porn is one of those things that people carry a lot of shame around and they get shamed a lot for. So even if they feel that they don't like their own porn consumption, even if there's a sense of, God, I wish I didn't feel kind of like I wanted to go to this as this kind of compulsive trigger in my life. The same way that I drink too much coffee or the same way that I'd overeat, or they don't feel they can actually express that to their partner because they feel that, that that level of honesty is actually not possible within their relationship. And I, I, I really, I've become so in my relationship today. I feel safer than I've ever felt. And because. And that's not just safe that this person is going to be loyal to me, which actually has allowed me to jealousies that I've had in the past that have really like. And we even had them in the beginning of our relationship. I remember her telling me about specific mo. You know, a specific situation. And it made me really jealous. And we had a massive fight, and the fight went on for ages, and it was so draining. And I can look back now and recognize that that was a time in our relationship where I didn't feel safe. Not because of her, but because of just what I associated with the past and ways I hadn't felt safe in the past. And as you say, I think things that I'd modeled growing up that are threats that do represent danger. And because of the safety that got created in that relationship over time, I literally don't spend a second thinking about any of those things anymore. I do. I just do not get jealous in those ways anymore. And that actually was no small thing for me. That represented a really big shift. So what do you think on both sides? Because how can, how can women specifically make someone feel safe? That once they've provided some piece of information that, you know, they create this environment where that person's willing to do that again tomorrow and next week and next week. And what do you think people can do to. If, if you're a woman who kind of really gets introspective and says, well, the reason I'm jealous here is because there is some deeper way that I don't feel safe in this relationship and actually what that means is because I don't feel safe on this deeper level, I flare up on all of these superficial levels. What do you think they can do to explore what their partner could do in the more fundamental ways to make them feel safe and how they could communicate that? I know that's a lot of questions, but feel free to attack.

I'll try to remember them. So first, I guess when it comes to someone expressing vulnerability and creating a space where they're likely to do that again, it's to not take it personal. That's like the number one thing. So relatively recently, my husband and I actually had like, a really, I want to say intense conversation, but I just listened. And I think that's also huge too, is make sure you're actually listening. Not. Okay, now I know exactly how I'm going to rebuke this, right? Like, working up the conversation in your head. Like, be present, try not to listen to anything in your head, and just, like, absorb what they're saying, but don't take it personal. Like, just, like, hear their side of whatever it is. So we had this conversation where he did 99 of the talking, and I just kind of sat there and like, openly listened. And there's an energy to that too, right? It's like, am I defensive or did I put up a wall, or am I ready to be on offense or am soft and, like, in a receiving mode, right? Like, that permeates. And there is science to say we have like a three to seven foot energy field, right? And then they. Those connect. So your energy going into it is absolutely paramount. So he kind of came to me, and I could tell right away it was a serious conversation. And he has been doing a lot in the psychedelic space, so I think this is also kind of bringing stuff back to the surface. And he's just trying to, like, react, reframe, or like, really dig up maybe things that we thought weren't a big deal, but maybe he realized now are a very big deal. And he kind of went through the last year or so of my career and how it was really hard for him and how he was processing it and how his version of that year was very different than my. The version that I thought was happening. Like, our realities were not aligned at all. And then that led to, honestly, like, that year that it was like, probably about 2016, it was gonna, like, make or break our marriage. It was that intense. And we just. I had no idea how disconnected we were because I was traveling so much for work. So he sat there and kind of, like, let me have it. Like, he wasn't attacking me at all, but he was just like, this was how I felt. This is the way I saw everything. It made me feel like shit. I had to deal with a lot of friends and people in the community doing xy. I felt like my masculinity was that it was under attack because everyone was saying, like, how could you let her. And it wasn't blaming me. It was just him sharing his perspective. And if I had gone into it with, how dare he. We made this agreement together, and then, oh, he waits until the year I'm retiring to tell me that this is like, right. I could have taken it so many other ways. And at the end of it, like, I just embraced him and I was like, I'm sorry you had to go through all of that. And he was just like. Almost like crying because he was like, wow, I can't. I can't believe you let me say all of that. I can't believe how present you were. And I can't believe, like, you didn't react. You didn't react. You just, like, let me vent. And he goes. And I didn't even know that's what I needed, but that's all I needed. He's like, I feel so much better. Like, he. We weren't trying to, like, work through anything. He thought maybe that's what he wanted. But at the end, because I provided such a safe space, he was like, oh. Oh, that was it. We're good now. I'm good now. So I think that's kind of the key. It sounds really simple, but it's really hard because, again, we're. We're wired to kind of be defensive and to, like, protect our space and our name and all of those things.

That's beautiful.

As far as being on the other end, it was. The question was what, like, how a woman. Kind of the process of introspection, I.

Suppose, if, you know, you know, I know. Speaking for myself, I was in, you know, a relationship where things did flare me up in ways that they would not if my current partner did them, but it was because I didn't feel safe. On a deeper level, what would you say to someone who is sort of diagnosed that, you know what? Actually, I don't. There are ways that I do not feel safe right now, and they're. They're bigger than this. And it's because this person isn't making me feel sure of our relationship or they're not showing me that they're all in. They're not showing me they're truly committed. And that's why when I don't get a text from them for three hours, I suddenly I, you know, spiral into this maddening fantasy of, of them. They've already left me and, you know, they're with someone else. What would you say to someone in that situation?

So there's a couple things. First, I would say if it's in the beginning of a relationship and you know, those foundations haven't really been laid yet, you, you're allowed to say what you need in a relationship and it goes back to kind of curating your relationship or customizing your relationship. So you can say, like, I really don't appreciate being ignored all day. Like it if you could periodically check your phone, you know, once on the hour to see if I need something. I had Lisa Bilyeu actually on my podcast and there's this one thing that she does with Tom which I thought was so great because they're both like very high performing individuals and both have their own projects going on. So neither one of them can be glued to the phone. Right. And make sure like, you need, I can answer all of your questions and meet all of your needs at, at the drop of a dime. But if one of them calls three times in a row, that means if you are with the president, if you are with like, you know, with your NASA, whatever it is, you could be with the most important person in the world, you stop what you're doing and you call me back. So they have like that specific protocol in their relationship, which I think is so amazing because it's like, is this an emergency or do you just kind of need to say hello? Right. Those are two different things. So you can customize your relationship and say, hey, can you please check your phone every hour or do that three, that three call thing or that three text in a row, whatever you want. Kind of want to customize now. I want to be careful with that though, because you have to. Again, it's all about yourself. It's not about the other person giving you what you need. You have to give yourself what you need. So if there's this huge fear of abandonment or he's going to leave you or he's going to cheat on you or whatever that the case may be, it's not beneficial for you to say, well, I texted you 10 times in 15 minutes and you didn't respond, or you need to call me back right away, or you watched my Instagram story and then you didn't comment. And being like Overly controlling because you do need space. Otherwise you are going to consume your partner, and then that's not a healthy relationship. So you have to learn to be okay with distance a little bit. So they say when it comes to maturity of maturity of a relationship, that kids often, they need proximity for it to feel real. And that's because of the immaturity of them and. And kind of figuring out the world and then how that transcribes into adulthood is because you didn't have those safety measures met at a young age that now you need proximity in your adult relationships. And that's a sign of immaturity. So you have to be okay with him going an hour or two, or even maybe longer without responding, depending on what your partner's doing. Like, maybe you're away at a work conference, maybe you're in a meeting, maybe you are meditating and you put everything on silent. Whatever it is. Maybe you just wanted some of your own time. I don't think that there necessarily needs to be a reason. You have to be comfortable with that distance. So again, there's a. Of course, if he's got his red receipts on and it's new in the relationship, he's watching all your stories and not responding, that's not okay either. And you're allowed to say that. You're allowed to say, like, I, I need presence. I need you to be in or out. So that's also fair. So you kind of have to understand, like, what that pull is. Is that pull genuine or not?

Yes. I love that. I love that. And I think understanding, again, it goes back to trusting each other with information, but understanding that you can actually communicate what you need from each other. You know, me and Audrey, we have a. We have a joke that, you know, when she goes away for the weekend, periodically, she's had, like, in the last year, she's had a couple of moments where, you know, she's had either like a bachelorette party or weekend or she's had a friend's wedding to go to. We're in that season where just friends are getting married left, right and center. And she. When she has to go away for a weekend, the kind of joke is that she's like, I'm leaving. Do you miss me? And I'm kind of. She knows from my face that the answer is not really. I'm good. Like, I'm actually looking forward to having a weekend where I'm just by myself and we laugh together because a. She feels completely safe. She knows that doesn't. That's Not a sign of anything. And. And B, she actually knows that I enjoy it. She knows I will have my, like, little routines that I have that when she is around, she makes fun of me for. And she knows that there are just things that I do to have, like, a really lovely weekend in my own company. But because it adds so much to our relationship that I feel I can actually say that instead of having to hide the fact that, no, I'm actually gonna have a really good time because you're not here. And that's also given her permission to say the same thing. Like, I need to go hang out with my girls. I'm like, I, you know, I. I really need that. I'm actually looking forward to getting away from you and doing that. You brought up an interesting point, though, which was early on in a relationship where you perhaps are struggling to even call it a relationship because neither of you have spoken about it. You're dating, you know, you really like this person. Perhaps you're seeing them regularly. The communication may be consistent or inconsistent, but it's ongoing. Those are the times where it feels like it's really tricky, right? Because it's a bit of a chicken egg thing. We don't have the safety from that person that would make us feel like we can just feel secure in how much they want us or how much they're going to be in a relationship with us. But we also don't want to chase them down and we don't want to become that person that's actually going to drive someone away. That could be a really good thing if we're able to bring a healthy version of ourselves to the situation. So do you. What's your thinking on how to enter something in an attractive and healthy manner in a way that actually makes the relationship more likely to happen? Because of that behavior at a time when you do not feel safe, I.

Think a lot of that is probably modeling. So it's you showing up how you want them to show up. So if they text you and you expect to be texted back within a reasonable amount of time, you're doing that so often. It's like, do I text him back? Do I have to wait three days? And like, you're sitting there and ruminating and trying to plot all of these things and over complicating it at the end of the day. Because if someone's into you, you know that they're into you. And there's nothing wrong with that. For some reason, we're like, we don't want to come on too Strong. But if you're really into someone, they're probably really into you, and you guys are both doing, like, this weird, awkward dance. So I think it's showing up how you want them to show up. And if they don't meet you where you need them to meet you, then you can say that you're not compatible. Like, that's always okay, too. But going in with a ton of seriousness and a bunch of rules and. And being, like, very iron fist about it, that's not good either, Right? Like, you. Like, that's going to absolutely drive somebody away. So I think you have to understand that during the infancy of that relationship, there has to be room for, like, just, like, more playful, light behavior. Right. Like, you don't have all of these, like, grand expectations yet, because you guys aren't necessarily a relationship and you haven't started building a future together. It's like, we're just trying to see if we are a good fit. Like, that's what it's about. Like, do we have the same interests? Do we have the same dreams, the same goals? Do we look at the world the same way? Like. Like, are we both optimistic? Is one of us ascetic? Like, just kind of, like, really trying to understand who you are and then who they are, and if that is a good match. And then obviously, at some point, you. Someone has to initiate the conversation of is this progressing and getting more serious? And then that's where you can start having more of those, like, concrete expectations of what you want out of a life partner versus someone that you're just trying to dance with and kind of see where that goes. So it's like, don't skip the fun part, right? The beginning months or weeks, like, that is so fun and light and carefree. And it's supposed to be because you're trying to see the best version of each other. And then I think that's very telling because, again, if everything's drama in the beginning, like, that's probably not a good idea. So you want to go into it without expectations and just, like, curiosity.

Yeah, that's a wonderful answer. You know, people, their anxiety in the beginning about what it's going to be can kill any joy that they could get from just actually being present in the situation and seeing how it evolves. And I think one of the distinctions that's important to make when we talk about modeling is we need to model the kind of communication that we want on our best, best and healthiest day. Because if we model the kind, if we're like, well, okay, so if I model what I want from them, I'm going to text them every five minutes because that's what I want from them. And that's, you know, that's not you on your healthiest day, that's you when you have nothing going on, it's you when you have no purpose, it's you when you're getting all of your validation from one person in life. I think it's really important to model the communication, even if you've never had it, model the communication of a relationship where you feel safe. And that's going to have you behave, you know, in a way that's healthy, not in a way that is in line with your attachment style, because that can get you into a lot of trouble. What do you you say then? You know, I think probably a lot of people get confused in those stages that we're talking about where they don't know what it is yet with this person. They're trying to enjoy it, but because they've decided they like this person. And it can be literally from date one, as we all know, you have decided that this person is wonderful and that you really hope that this thing goes somewhere. And now there's a kind of putting all your eggs in that basket thing that happens where you really do now start to put it on a pedestal. You start to raise the stakes of it to an impossible degree. And it precipitates the exact kind of anxiety that we're saying should be avoided. You could say that the antidote to that is to have, you know, don't stop dating other people. Like, keep dating, keep meeting other people. Don't make it something it isn't before it is that. But it's also possible that we can sometimes create mess in early relationships by doing that and things that we then have to explain later on that we wish we didn't have to explain, you know, oh, I hooked up with that person during that very early dating phase with you. And what's your take on navigating that? That what feels like a minefield early on of, I don't want to get too serious with that person. But also, I don't want to sabotage this, what I have with this person by going and hooking up with someone else.

So I think it's a. It's a couple things. When you're looking for love, you have to be vulnerable. Like, you have to be at peace with the fact that you could get your heart broken. That is just. That's the cost of the game. And there's no way that you can safeguard against that. You have no idea how it's going to turn out. So to try to have these little insurance policies just in case. I don't think that's a good idea. Unless you're like, well, I'm not sure. So I'm going to keep, you know, my. I'm going to keep dating a couple people because I'm not feeling that poll. To me, it's very counterproductive if you do go on this date and you're like, this person is just amazing. What. Like, I want to spend every minute with them. I really want to get to know them. I think you're doing yourself and that potential relationship a huge disservice by minimizing that. So treat it how you feel about it. Like, if it is something special to you, treat it like it's something special. And again, you have to be okay and vulnerable with that not working out and maybe them not feeling the way that you feel. But if you're super into someone, it's gonna be really hard to explain going on a date with someone the next day, like someone else the next day, or sleeping with someone, you know, the same week or whatever it is. So you have to show up honestly and authentically for yourself, and you can't really control the other person or how they respond to that. But it's like, behave in a. That reflects your interest and seriousness of that relationship. And again, if it's. I mean, my parent, they're divorced, so maybe not the great, the greatest example, but they were married for 15 years. He proposed on the first date, and then they were married again. Married for 15 years. So it did. It was a really long marriage, even in today's terms.

Yeah, I was gonna say something. I mean, if it was 15 years of hell, that's maybe a different story. But if two people are married for 15 years and. And many of them are successful years, I count that as a win. I think one of the things in our, you know, one of the things I think more. I wish actually more of the women that followed us did was count their previous marriage as a win. If, you know, if you had some longevity in that marriage, that's still a win. A lifetime is a long time when it comes to one person. And I think it's important for our own confidence to that, you know, we. We don't write off entire swaths of our life as. As not successful when in fact, in so many ways they were. I think what you. Everything you just said, I couldn't agree with more I, I, but to challenge it, I, you go on a date, you really like someone, you have a sense of this is something special. And I hear this a lot and sometimes it's true and other times it's very one sided. There's a feeling of it being very special. But what's happened is that they've gone on a date with someone who's really good at giving very special dates. And you know, when I think of, I just had a conversation with Dr. Ramany yesterday. I don't know if you know Dr. Ramani, but she's an expert on nuts.

Narcissism and oh yeah, I know her.

She, one of the things we, you know, we talked about is how narcissists give really great dates early on and they can make you feel incredibly special and heard and connected and then you go away and you feel that this is very, very important when in fact it's really just a very, very intense feeling. And, and you know, I always say if, if feelings were a measure of importance, then MDMA would be the most important thing in the world. Like the, the feeling isn't the only important thing. The facts are really important of, you know, the behaviors, the investment, the how that person shows up over time. But when we feel something really strongly in the beginning and we've decided it's special, we are then kind of liable to give more than we should actually be giving or try harder than we should actually be trying right now. And I think probably most of us have had the experience of meeting someone for the first time and if I flip it, you know, we've met someone and they've decided something about us very quickly and then they put so much on that thing and they start, start, they almost become a fan and you know, they're trying so hard and they're, as a result, it's sort of their value starts to decrease in our eyes because you're like, oh, this is not, this is not an organic thing here. So I guess this is a long winded way of asking, of saying yes, yes, yes to going on a date and respecting what you think it, the potential of this thing could, could be. But where do you think, how do you think people can avoid that? Sending them head first into giving way too much too early.

Oh man. So I feel there's some people that they have this incredible date and they automatically start picking out like a wedding dress or like planning their future. And you're living, and you're living in the future. You're not being present at All And I also think, think when you're in this place that just seems like, like you're taking, right? Like you're not really giving to the other person. You're just like, take, take, take. You're operating from like a deficiency. So I think it's kind of like that old adage of fill your own cup. Like, don't be. Don't give away your agency or your, like your independence just because you found someone that could be a potential life partner. So don't stop doing the things for you that make you happy or make you. Or make you feel fulfilled, like Don. Start ditching your friends or your family or stop, like you stop doing your hobbies or you're calling out of work. Like, you start to kind of trade in your identity for this potential person. And sometimes it's for. Even if it's an established relationship, I don't think that's healthy either. So it's more of like building this life together or like this potential relationship together instead of like taking from them. Like, I want your time, I want your attention. I want, want, want. It's more of like, I can exist over here independently and hopefully we can build something beautiful in the midd. Can Respect that you exist independently as well. So it's just like not trading off your pieces of your life and yourself for somebody else.

Is there anything that in the. Having led this, you know, career that a lot of people can't relate to and, and then, you know, having your marriage and everything you've learned along the way, are there insights that you have. Have gained about men that have surprised you? Because I feel that, you know, a lot of women, when I say certain things about men, they're almost. There's almost a level of shock. Like really, like, I don't. Men really are like that or they really think that, or they're capable of that kind of thought or feeling or emotion. What for you have been unique or surprising insights that you've had about men along the way.

Oh, that makes me so sad. But I know, I know that you're telling the truth with that because I think men are wonderful. And so many of us write that entire sex off and we kind of like put this pejorative on the word man or what it is to be masculine or like all of it's. It's bad or they're incapable of connection and emoting, which is nuts. It's almost something that. It's like this crazy eight pattern. We want them to be vulnerable and express their emotions. But then when they do. We're like, well, that's not masculine or. Or somehow you're not right for experiencing those things. Like, it's actually about me. And then they shut down and they don't express the emotion. And then here we go in this, like, in this crazy eight pattern, right? So I would say the thing that I've learned that was really surprising to me is I get a ton of fan mail, like, actual snail mail. I get a ton of dms and emails, and people write in all of the time. And I can't tell you how many men are just, like, craving some kind of connection. Like, it's not. And I don't know if this makes it better or worse for a lot of women that are, like, on the fence about porn or, like, very decided that it's wrong or very decided that it's cheating. But a lot of these men just. They'll come to me and they'll say, I've been married for 20 years, 40 years, and my wife will not look at me. She won't touch me. There's. And I'm not talking just sex, just, like, actual intimacy. She doesn't ask me about my day. And if she does, she doesn't really care. She. If I am in a place where I'm vulnerable, she'll tell me that I'm. Can I curse? I don't know if I can curse or not.

Yeah, you can curse.

Yeah. Like, if. Like, I'm just acting like a pussy. All of these things. Like, we, like, tear men down. Um, so I would say, like, the biggest thing is they're highly emotional. Like, you guys are highly emotional creatures, too, and you crave connection just like we do. It's just you. You've been conditioned to be told that you're not allowed to express those things, or somehow it's at odds with your masculinity. And funny enough, I just tweeted this last night, my son was on his iPad on YouTube kids, which I hate. And we're trying to work through that because you're not in control of what pops up. So this video came up with this dad chasing his son around with a big poster board that said no. So his son would do something, he'd be like, no, no. And, you know, this was, like, the theme of the thing. Eventually, the kid fell on the playground and started crying. And he puts up his sign, and he goes, no, crying is bad. No crying. You have to be strong. And I stopped it. I grabbed his iPad. I go, we need to talk about something really quick. So I paused it. I was like, I'm going to block this channel in this video. I'm going to tell you why. And I pointed to the dad and I was like, he's wrong. I was like, what he just said is wrong. Crying is fine. You are allowed to cry. And sometimes it takes a lot of strength to cry so you can be strong and cry. And he just looked at me and softened and he's like, okay, mama. And we blocked it and he actually like brought it up later on in the night because he started crying and he's like. And I was like, your brother's sleeping. He's like, oh, I'm crying. And I'm like, okay, you're allowed to cry. I can't tell him not to cry right now after all that. So I'd like hurry up to his bedroom so he didn't wake up the baby. But you know, like, those little moments can have such a huge impact on who he shows up to be as a man. And we don't think so, but there's so many conversations or like even side conversations or things that we're consuming at such a young age that really tell paint the framework for that voice in our head later in adulthood. So I think it's not to write men off and it's to again, create a safe space where they can be vulnerable and share emotions and don't let that be a turn off to you. If anything, like when my husband cries, which is so new, like we've like cracked something open in him, I am just like, I turn into mush and I'm just like, I love this man so much. Like I love this man so much. And I am so honored to be someone that he can trust to do this with. Yeah.

So beautiful. For women who find themselves with a guy that they would describe as avoidant, what do you think are some practical ways or what have you found to be some practical ways of, of getting a person like that to actually open up, to share more and to do it consistently so it's not just a one time thing.

So they've done this exercise in making people fall in love with each other. They wanted to see if it was something that you could replicate and it turns out you can, at least based off of this study. So it, it's, it's framed as a bunch of questions kind of volleying back and forth. So they start really superficial and light, but each time it gets a little bit deeper and a little bit more real and then the person responds and their question again it's like, it's exponential.

It's like 34 questions or 24 or something, right?

Yeah. So by the end of it, you're asking deepest, darkest secrets, like just questions that really require you to kind of show your underbelly to the person. And by the end of it, they did have the ner. The neurochemistry of falling in love with this perfect stranger. So I think again, modeling is kind of like the theme of the conversation. If that's what you want and you want to kind of. You really want a trusting, solid relationship, something that's real is. Is modeling it. So if you're trying to kind of like pull certain threads, you're like, well, there was this time where I felt this way, right. And just kind of experience share. And even if they don't open up right, then they'll probably come back later when they feel more comfortable and. And then do it. So I don't know what book I was reading, but they were saying especially with, with boys, it's really important for them to kind of have one on one time with their fathers because if the mom, like asks them a question, she can like, you know, go off and if they don't answer right away and just like write it off like, okay, like, I guess it didn't bother him. Getting bullied didn't bother him. Not getting picked for dodgeball didn't. Didn't bother him. But if he's with his dad in like a, in a space that's not like time's not a require like a barrier. Right. Like he can kind of just sit there and be present. Eventually that kid is going to open up and then kind of be like, you know, I actually felt this way. So it's not putting a clock on it either. So don't assume it's not working. So model the behavior. Give them time to process it. Another cool exercise. But it might be like way too hippie, especially if they're already avoidant is eye gazing. Like that can be super powerful. And what you'll realize is maybe you're married for 10 years and then you do this eye gazing exercise and you can look it up online. You put the timer on and it's silence. And it's just you and your partner, like super close, just staring into each other's eyes. And you're like, whoa, this is really uncomfortable. And you have to be like, why is this uncomfortable? Like, this has been my husband or this has been my wife for however long, or we've been dating for how long? Like, how come this level of intimacy is too much? And then you'll kind of see where you can kind of fortify that relationship. And so many times people will start. Start crying or they'll start like remembering certain emotions or things that had bothered them or just connect on a relationship really deep level. It's super powerful.

You know, I have had moments where I'm in front of the mirror and I've just been like, I'm just gonna do this with myself for a couple of minutes and just like eye gaze with myself. And it's so interesting because you can notice that you're not even fully comfortable with that moment with your. It's like. It's a weird feeling, almost like embarrassment when no one's even there. And if you think that you can have that on your own, then you can certainly have it with somebody who you share a house with, because you can have it with yourself. You can literally have not had intimacy or with yourself in any real way, have not connected to yourself as a human being in any real way in a long time. You've just done the equivalent of what so many people do in a marriage. Just kept yourself, yourself endlessly distracted so that you don't actually have to spend any time with yourself just as people do with a partner. I have one more question, and then I really want to give people a chance to ask you their questions. Because one of the things that we do in this membership is we give people a chance to actually have a little time with our guests. It's part of the experience and they get to. To have a little interaction with someone that they may never normally in life be able to connect with or reach. What you did and are doing, which is really fantastic, is pivot your life in a way that allowed you to just explore completely new directions and people's identities become so concretized that they find it near impossible to do that. Maybe they're worried what their friends or family will think if they decide that they're suddenly going to do or be something else. Maybe they don't think that they'll be capable. Maybe it feels like that they're too far down the rabbit hole of what they're already doing. What would be your advice to people who feel like there is some yearning for a change and what they've been doing for so long is constantly throwing up the question, like, is this all there is? Is this really, like, this is. Is this me forever? In the context of a life that is pretty short and where, as far as I know, we don't get a second chance. You know, I think it's essential for people to be able to make the most of their lives by having new, new evolutions, new chapters of themselves. But as someone who's, who's done that and is doing it, you know, the fact that we're having this conversation is evidence of that. What would be your advice to people in a situation like that?

So I know it can be terrifying leaving something that sir, like quote unquote certain. And I think that's one of the beautiful things that came out of the pandemic is we realized how much is not, not certain as far as our careers go. Like we might have thought that our job was reliable and it was going to be there no matter what. So that's how we kind of justified those trade offs, especially when it comes to our time and attention with our loved ones. So I think it kind of shifted that paradigm for a lot of people and it made them kind of re organize their values and what was important to them. So I know it can be terrifying when you have people that rely on your income and it could be a job that you hate your. But you're like, what is my family gonna do without that? You have to also ask the question, what is, how am I going to show up for my family 10 years from now if every single day I'm giving a little bit of my soul away for this company that doesn't treat me well, that doesn't respect my time? What's it gonna be like when your kids are out of the house and you realize like you've only saw them an hour before, before bedtime and sometimes on weekends, if your boss wasn't demanding your time even though you're supposed to be off the clock, what's it going to look like when my kids leave the house? And I realized I haven't taken my wife out on a date in 18 years. I haven't made love to my wife in 18 years. Like not had sex, like actual, like make love with them, really connect and kind of have that transcend, transcendental experience with them. So is that what your family deserves? Is that what you deserve? Or do all of you kind of deserve to take that risk to be a happier person? If you need to down, downgrade your lifestyle to make this happen, downgrade it. I guarantee that your spouse and your children would much rather have you than an extra thousand square feet than go to Disneyland once a year. So it's just for some reason we feel like we're not good enough So I think we compensate with things. So I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy of love. So I'm going to buy the vacation or I'm going to buy all of those toys. I'm going to make sure my wife can go to the spa, whatever, like, these things are. And for some reason we don't see our own value. So I think it's more risky to not take the risk than it is to take the risk. And I mean, I truly believe that. Again, I'm someone. I got fired from my contract and I was the main earner for our household, but I did it because I was like, I, I can't do this. This is literally eating away at me and this company is, is terrible and toxic and I can't do this. This. My husband was so supportive. And because we went into that decision like, head first and like, like fully committed, committed to it, it all worked out a thousand times better. And I truly believe, believe that for most people. So I think it's just kind of reorganizing your life so that you're set up for success, whether, again, that's downgrading or spending some of your free time to build your dream. But I definitely don't think the answer is, like, staying somewhere that is taking all of your energy and time away from.

I love the, the realism of that, that there may be a sacrifice to be made, but it's just a sacrifice worth making. So I, I couldn't agree more. I. I'm going to jump to some questions, but first, Candice, I just want to say this has been such a pleasure and there is such a groundedness and a thoughtfulness and, and an insightfulness to every answer you give that it just really shows, A, I live the life, and B, just an incredible amount of learning and studying and curiosity that you must have had in your life. One of the things I was really impressed with was your bookshelf. There were, I saw one particular interview where there were just, just so many books behind you where I was like, one of my favorite books. That's another one of my favorite books. There's this, you know, like, it was really cool to see the kinds of eclectic curiosity that you have in your life represented in that wall of knowledge behind you. Would you be able to share with our audience maybe just one or two books based on everything we've talked about today that you think they might find really helpful?

I would say anything by Esther Perel I really love because it does challenge a lot of women's belief systems. If you are curious about pornography or you kind of want to understand your relationship with it, A Billion Wicked Thoughts is excellent. And it's. It's very data driven, so you can kind of understand and it'll maybe validate that because someone is acknowledging someone else. Beautiful. It doesn't threaten your relationship necessarily. I would say one that I recommend for everyone is Don Miguel Ruiz, the Four Agreements, and then the Fifth Agreement. I think that that's just like a really personal development book. Victor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning. Excellent book. It has to do with, you know, like, your interstate kind of creates your outer reality. So I think when it comes to relationship stuff, it's. It's all of that personal development that's going to lead you to a successful romantic relationship. So if every book you're digesting is like, how to get the guy or he's just not that into you, like, you're not really addressing the core issues because you kind of attract where you're at.

Couldn't agree more. Oh, and I should say, Candace, is there somewhere that you want people to check out of your own that you think would really help people?

Sure. Yeah. So the podcast we just started recording again because I just had my second baby, so you can go to chattingwithcandice.com and I'm gonna start uploading new episodes very shortly. But there's a whole library there. All my socials are there. And then eventually we'll be in a place where we can kind of talk about our psychedelic retreat, but it's still kind of in the works right now. So if that's also curious to you, then stay tuned.

Candace, this has been really, really wonderful. And I know that everything you've said from start to finish is going to help a lot of people who listen to this, so I'm really grateful. I know your time is precious. I know you have a lot going on and you have a lot of really exciting things happening in your life. So thank you for choosing to spend some time with us. Remind us of that website that people can go to to find out about all of the things you have going on.

You can go to chatting with Candace.com and that has everything that you need there. And thank you so much. This was an incredible conversation. I had a blast.

Me, too. Me too. I hope you get to do it again.

Me too.

All right, Candice, be well. Thank you.

Thank you, Sam.