Dating After Divorce, Addiction, and Choosing the Right Love w/ Laurie Woolever

And it was a little bit of a delusion. I mean, to me, being comfortable and being safe meant this sort of false idea that he thinks I'm perfect. He doesn't see any of my flaws. He sees me the way that I wish I could see myself.

Laurie. Hello and welcome.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

It's lovely to have you here. I have been excited about this conversation. I'm. I feel like I. I'm fascinated with all of the worlds that you've operated in and this Memoir, of course, care and feeding that has just. come out. I would love to, I suppose, start with what made you decide I want to write this now? Because you've been living in the world of food and publishing for a very long time and worked among some really prominent people who I'm sure we'll talk about. What made you decide, I'm going to write this memoir now?

Well, I had Finished two books in 2021, put them both out in 2021, and the decks were sort of cleared for me. And both of those books were about or with the late Anthony Bourdain. And so I had some traction in the publishing space, and I had some momentum, and I had always wanted to do something with all of these stories I accumulated over, you know, a decade and two and a half decades in and around the food world and the media world. I had recently gotten sober. My life had changed in a lot of ways and I felt like this was the time to try and tell these stories. I wasn't sure if I would do a memoir or perhaps auto fiction or a collection of essays. And the more I kind of thought about it and bounced ideas around with some people, the memoir just seemed like the most natural form to tell this story of my adult working life for about 25 years.

And for people who haven't read it yet, and I have been really, really enjoying the book, the first part of the book centers on you in your 20s, and going to work with Mario Batali, a prominent chef who I'm curious to know, You know, from what I've read, a huge motivation here was having worked with really these two huge male figures in Mario Batali and then Anthony Bourdain to actually start voicing or having that voice come to the foreground for yourself as opposed to, you know, living in this way where they're always front and center. and you're somehow in the mix. Could you talk about that a little bit? Because I know so many people in our audience will feel like throughout their lives they've not been headlining in their own life. And maybe they're now entering into a new era. It might be professionally, but it might also be personally that they're coming out of a divorce where they always felt like they took a backseat to the person they were with. Their life was never really about them, or they didn't feel like they had a voice in the way that they do today. I just love to hear about that transition.

Yeah, so I worked with these two very big names, two very powerful and popular men in this sphere.

And.

For different reasons and in different ways, neither one of them are around anymore. Tony took his life in 2018, and Mario, as a consequence of his Behavior and actions was, I hate the term canceled, but he was canceled and he's no longer kind of an active businessman and media person. And it's quite clear to me that if those two things hadn't happened, this book, this would be a very different book, or maybe there wouldn't be a book at all because of the power that they had and You know, I was Tony Bourdain's assistant when he died, and I think if he were still around, I would be doing something big and creative, but it would be in his shadow still. And that would be great. You know, I wish he were still around. I wish I were doing something supporting him in his life, but that's not the way that things happened. And it was, that's just the reality of it. So this was the choice that I made was to tell my own story, something that I had felt that was not really available to me. Because of course you want to sort of hold the secrets or hold the privacy and respect the person that you're working for. And so whatever is going on behind the scenes is not really for public consumption. I do want to be clear, this book is not a salacious sort of tell-all, you know, let me spill all the dirty secrets of my bosses. It was, it's truly just my experience. I think there are lots of people, like you said, people in relationships or people in professional situations that for whatever reason don't feel that they have the right to tell their stories, apart from maybe a, you know, a small handful of very trusted people. But I think there's so much more that's going on under the surface that, and those, to me, those are the really interesting stories, what goes on behind the scenes, what life is like for the people that aren't the big marquee names or aren't the person that gets the most attention. So, you know, my marriage also ended, a spoiler for you and for the reader, but I have a marriage in the book and then it ends, and that really changed my life as well. And that also kind of freed me up to tell, to talk about my feelings within the marriage and talk about my feelings about the marriage ending. And I think if I were still married, if I had been happily married, again, this would be a very different book.

Was it, I'm so curious because I so struggle in my own life with a constant sense of obligation to people in my life and you know, a feeling of betrayal if I talk about people, if I write about people. And I know I, I think I once heard Anne Lamott say, if people didn't want you to write about them, they should have behaved better, which is, is pretty funny. But I, I've always struggled with that. I'm curious from your perspective. And, and obviously, you kind of alluded to this idea that Partly because Tony is no longer here and because, you know, I suppose so much happened with Mario Patali's reputation anyway that it created space for you to maybe do that more easily. But what is it-- do you struggle with any of those feelings or have you?

Absolutely, yeah. It was the biggest question. It was the biggest reason why for a long time I didn't feel that I could ever write the story that I wanted to write because of those people, also because of, you know, my family. My mother was, I think, always really wanted to know more about my life. And I was always extremely reluctant to share with her just because I thought it would upset her, she would judge me, you know, she would feel maybe that she had failed somehow because I was putting myself in tough situations. And so she, my mother died in 2021. And that really freed me up to write in a really honest way about my life. The best advice that I found when I started this process was from Mary Carr, who wrote, she's a wonderful memoirist. She wrote a craft, basically a craft manual called the Art of Memoir, and it covers all aspects of engaging in this process. But the one that really, really stuck with me, and I went back to again and again, was how to write about the people in your life with respect, with kindness, how to do it honestly. And the big takeaways are you need to hold yourself as accountable as everyone else. And it's if depending on the relationship, you should offer people the opportunity to look in advance what you've written about them, to read what you've written about them and offer some feedback. And there's no promises that you're gonna change things, your story is your story, but just to if there are people that you think may be affected by what you're writing, to give them a chance to give it a once over. So I did that in some cases. And in some cases, I didn't. With Mario Batali, certainly, I didn't feel any obligation to say, to let him have approval. I don't have any contact with him. And a lot of his behavior is a matter of public record. The most important thing, again, from Mary Carr, and I think this is true just generally in writing this way, it's that it has to It has to be your point of view. So my point of view, my firsthand experiences, the things that I saw, that I felt, that I remembered, and really kind of leaving behind hearsay and conjecture. And then of course the publisher has a very vested interest in not being sued. So there's a very like robust legal read that goes on in this case. So yeah, I was concerned, you know, my father is still alive. I was concerned about him reading it. he has decided not to read it, although he is extremely supportive and has purchased about 10 copies and couldn't be happier for me, but doesn't feel that he needs to under, you know, to know about all the sort of things I put myself through. My son, who's now 16, I've been concerned about him. He couldn't be less interested in reading it, which I think is great and very appropriate. And my ex-husband and I, and I gave him a copy ahead of time and he hasn't said anything about it. So I don't know if he's read it or not, but I wanted him to have a heads up on that I was going to be writing about our marriage.

So many people carry so much shame about their own pasts. And, you know, that shame for a lot of people never really leaves them. There's a constant fear of, well, if you really knew this about me, then you would look at me differently. I think a lot of people feel that when they get into new relationships, like, there's parts of me I want you to know, and there's parts of me I don't want. to know that there's an incredible level of vulnerability in this book. You know, to read the first 100 pages is to read of, you know, sexual exploits and drugs and all sorts of situations that so many people have been through in one way or another, but very few people feel vulnerable. They can be vulnerable enough to actually share and talk about. And I'm curious if for you, that vulnerability felt like a huge and scary leap and still causes anxiety or whether there was a level of self-acceptance that you had achieved by this point in life or by the time you started writing it that actually made that not so scary.

Yeah, I don't-- it's surprising because there is, there are lots of, you know, embarrassing things that I put myself through and that I did. I think, you know, I have a good sense of humor, I think. So I think, you know, a lot of it now, it was so long ago, and I have a lot of tenderness toward that young person that I was. And so I think it's, most of it is more funny than truly shocking or shameful to me. But yeah, I mean, shame has been a big part of my sort of my mental makeup for a long time. I was raised Catholic, and, you know, there was just a lot, there was a lot of shame around sex, and there was a lot of shame around using drugs and drinking, but I did it anyway. And I think maybe I did it because it was shameful. But the act of writing it down and of sharing the story somehow has sealed it off for me in a way that I don't feel ashamed of it anymore. I don't feel that it is too much. I know that there's some very personal stuff that's in print that's out in the world that people know about me now. But somehow it is separate from me, which I didn't expect.

What is that? How does that happen? I'm curious, because I know what you mean, because in the beginning of, you know, when I think of the original book I wrote back in 2013, there's something very, there's something much more sort of didactic about that book, whereas my new book, while I suppose still didactic in nature, is that it opens with me talking about how dispelling any myths about the idea that I was a great guy to date back when I was single, because I felt that that was a kind of a lie that I allowed people to believe. And, you know, it's not that I went around telling everyone I was so awesome all the time, but I think people assumed because of the work that I do, he must have been a great guy. to date, and I knew better. And I sort of, in a way, wanted to clear the air on that in the latest book and be like, I don't want to have been put on any kind of pedestal here. This is the reality. I'm not better than everybody else. And it, there was a kind of release, a relief in doing that. And I do understand what you mean by sealed off, but, yeah, I'm curious what you mean by that and also how you learned to develop a kind of tenderness towards that, those past versions of you, because that's something a lot of people struggle to get to.

Well, therapy certainly helps. And I, and sobriety, you know, that's my sort of personal cocktail of, of approaches to sort of being kinder to myself. I think having a child now and, and, I mean, he's a teenager and just seeing, you know, his humanity and his impulses and his behavior and different decision making. And, you know, I can remember what it was like to be that age and I know that he's going to move on into his, you know, 20s and he's gonna be in similar situations. And I have such a tenderness toward him because he's my child. And I'm somehow able to sort of retroactively apply that to the memory of my lost and, you know, sad and vulnerable self. Yeah, I, you know, it is very surprising. I don't really know. I think it's, there is also some measure of kind of self-protection and boundary setting that I, I was, I had terrible boundaries when I was younger. And, and I thought that everything was my business and everything everyone thought about me was my business. And I had to sort of control it in a way that, of course, you know, you just, you can't have that level of control. Right. And so now that I'm older and I'm sober and I've, you know, had decades of therapy. I understand that I don't need to go looking for everyone's reaction to this book. I'm sure that there, you know, if people are paying attention, if people are talking about the book, I'm sure there are some people that don't like it or think it's too much or think that it's an overshare or think I'm a terrible person for some of the things that I did. I've had this wonderful gift in recovery, in alcohol recovery, to be told and to know that it's none of my business, actually, what people think about me. You know, my loved ones, of course, you know, I want, I want to nurture those relationships and make sure that people feel good about me. But the larger public and the world, it's not, because it's actually not about me. If I don't know you and you've got an opinion about me based on my book, like, that's about you, you know, and, and hopefully more people like the book than don't, but. So that goes a long way toward being able to have empathy and sympathy for myself and not feel overexposed because I'm not letting in every single reaction that people might have to the drinking, the adultery, the drugs, all of the things that I, I'm not proud of any of that. I don't think I did a great thing behaving that way, but I can't change it. It is part of who I am. some version of radical acceptance.

And do you feel that who you are today and the things you're proud of about yourself today could have been achieved without those things along the way, those mistakes or regrets or any of that?

Probably not. You know, I think it was just fundamental to who I was that I wanted to find out what it felt like to XYZ. I wanted to follow through if there, I mean, and I'm not saying it was great. I think it led me down a lot of dark paths, but if there was a temptation, I had a really hard time saying no to it because I thought, I'm really gonna regret if I don't see what it feels like to do this thing. So, yeah, I also, you know, I think I can hold sort of two truths about it. I can also say, gosh, I wasted a lot of time. and I hurt some people. I primarily hurt my ex-husband. And I probably could have been more professionally productive or any number of things. So I might have gotten to the same place, but there's only one time, there's only one timeline of reality, and it's the one that I'm in where it took me a long time to get sober. It took me a long time to figure out how to live in a way where I'm not self-destructive. And, you know, I'm grateful. I have the stories, I have the bruises, I have the experience. I feel like my life is richer for having made a bunch of mistakes and living through it.

Do you think that you can teach someone to get there sooner from the outside? You know, because one of the parts in the book I was enjoying was when you were talking about, you know, the, there was such, something so seductive about the world that you had entered into with Mario Batali and being surrounded by charismatic, sparkling people and food and, you know, booze and all of these experiences that, especially in your 20s, are, you know, they are wildly seductive. And it's a sort of, in a way, it's a dangerous environment for anyone to be in. I, I was 25, when I came to America and I came for a very big TV show at the time that was on NBC in a prime slot aired after the Voice, and that show failed. But I look back now and I'm like, thank God it failed, because this was the kind of show that if it had succeeded, My notoriety would have exploded. And at 25, given everything I know about all the mistakes I made in my 20s anyway, it would have been really, really dangerous for me to have been that big at that time. So I suppose I'm sort of curious, because when I'm working with people in their love lives, so much of what I end up dealing with is people who are attracted to shiny things and then end up getting hurt because they're attracted to shiny things. Do you think that you can help someone get there quicker instead of constantly being dragged back to these things that are incredibly alluring, but then actually end up being the hot stove that really hurts us?

Yeah, that's, wow, that's a sort of a tall order. I guess, you know, if someone is, is prone to addiction, I think it's, that's its own sort of set of problems, right? That's its own, because there's, what needs to happen is there needs to be, the cycle needs to be broken, right? Because if you're prone to addiction, it's drugs and alcohol or food or sex or money or notoriety, validation, whatever it is, you know, if you're not breaking that cycle, there's always, you're always just gonna be transferring your addictive tendencies to the next shiny thing, right? But that's not everyone, right? I mean, there's many, many people who can live in a more moderate way. I think that having some way to pursue and develop like an internal sense of validation, and that is something that I was struggling with and chasing for a very long time, was feeling good enough about myself as a person to not be constantly instantly chasing the thrill. And it took me a long time. I didn't have great self-esteem and I just didn't know how to be comfortable with myself.

So when you say, can you draw that line for me between not feeling good enough or not feeling an internal sense of worth and chasing the thrill? Because of course, chasing the thrill can also just sort of feel good on its face, right? But what links it to self-esteem for you?

For me personally, I think my understanding of what made me valuable was what I could accumulate or who I could align myself with or what I could attract to myself that would somehow, I thought, reflect to the world who I was inside. I remember being young, like elementary school, middle school, and the only important thing for me for a girl to do, in my estimation, was to have a boyfriend. It was just about, do you have a boyfriend? And if you don't, what's wrong with you? And I never really had a boyfriend until high school, but he wasn't the right kind of boyfriend. You know, it's, and I know it's, some of it's the culture and some of it's just my own internal, whatever logic. So I think I carried that into my adulthood, where it was, sorry to.

Interrupt you, what made him not the right kind of boyfriend at the time? Was it not cool enough?

He wasn't part of the in club? Yeah. I mean, I thought he was fantastic. I mean, I was head over heels and it was great, but in terms of like whatever in crowd I was hoping to impress, you know, he was in the music department. He was older. He was sort of, you know, he was the first guy I ever knew who was on lithium. You know, he was quite depressed and to me, which again, I found that very sexy, but I think in terms of like a mainstream sort of acceptance is like, wait, this guy's on lithium? So, yeah, as much as I got a lot out of that relationship, I knew that it didn't like raise my social worth. And it sounds so callous and crass to talk about these things in this way, but that was sort of, that was what it was, you know? So I definitely carried that into my young adulthood, like my value will be raised if I can get a boyfriend, if I can, you know, and barring that, which then I felt like, I don't think I can get a boyfriend. I don't know that I'm worthy. I don't know that anybody wants to be with me. So, but what I can do is have a lot of sex and have a lot of flings and have a lot of adventures that I can talk about. I can make them into funny stories and maybe that'll be my thing and that'll be my worth is sort of, I'm wild or I'm funny, interesting, I'm good at parties.

And did it feel like that would be my worth with men and women or just among women?

Gosh, these are things I haven't really thought about too much. I think both, and I don't know that I really gave a lot of thought to it with the men piece, because I do know that objectively in our culture, the more partners a woman has, at least as this was the case in the late 90s and early 2000s when I was young, that's this sort of thing, the stigma of being slutty, right? So the more partners you have, the less somebody wants to be with you in theory. And again, it's kind of reductive. It's kind of talking about the whole thing as sort of a marketplace, but it is in a way. Dating is a marketplace, I guess. Yeah, I just thought, well, if I can't have true love and I'm not sure that I can, at least I can have these experiences that are gonna make me really interesting.

For you, the idea that you can't have true love. Did that, did that wear off at a certain point, or was there a point where you felt a shift, or is it something that's always been a continual kind of belief system that's been a challenge?

It doesn't, it has worn off. I think I have, you know, I, I have true love now. I'm very happy. But it, you know, I'm, I'm much older than I was at the time. I think I I kept finding myself frustrated and not with the right people and, you know, liking someone who didn't like me back enough and mistaking sex for love, mistaking a fling for a commitment. And I didn't ever really examine if there were patterns. I wasn't able to really examine what those patterns were or what it was that I, you know, the things that I kept running toward that were obviously not working for me. I just thought, well, There's something defective about me that I won't be able to find true love. And I can see now that that was born of, you know, a certain immaturity. I think there is a lack of emotional development that happens if you're drinking, if you're binge drinking all the time, if you're using drugs, if you're acting in an addictive way. And again, this is not for everyone, but this was my experience that you, your emotional development kind of stops, you know, so I was just sort of stuck and not not really understanding that I was the one that was kind of standing in the way of actually having true love. At some point when I got out of the restaurant business for a while and I met someone who was not in the business and a very lovely, stable man who wanted to be in a monogamous relationship, I thought, okay, well this is it. All I had to do was change industries to find someone who was suitable. And I ended up marrying him. And I ended up being not very happy with that. I think I was so desperate to be settled and to, you know, just to be off the market and to have this person loved me, wanted to marry me, great, that's enough. We're gonna, it's gonna work. And it didn't.

Guys, quick public service announcement before you continue with the video. big online event that I did last week called Dating Made Simple is only available until Friday at midnight. I know tons of you have been intending to watch it, but you still haven't. 50,000 people have now come through this live masterclass I did. If you're looking for love, you can't miss this. It'll be the most important 90 minutes you spend this year. It was actually about an hour and 45 minutes. Lovelifereplay.com is the link. Go watch it, make time and watch it till the end. I designed this to be like a movie. It tells a story and it all makes sense by the end. Again, that is only available until Friday at midnight. It's free. I just wanna make sure you don't miss it. Okay, lovelifereplay.com, I'll see you over there. All right, back to the video. What was it in that relationship that, 'cause you know, it's really interesting to me that you know, we, when the pendulum swings the other way and we go, ah, this feels like exactly the medicine I need. I'm have someone who's stable and someone who actually wants to be with me and wants to be exclusive and all these things that I haven't had over here, it can feel like just what we need. And it's a pretty scary thing when that doesn't work for us. And we feel, you know, it's a kind of even more panicking to be in that situation. Was it that you didn't feel the chemistry that you had always wanted to feel? What stopped it being the complete picture?

There was a moment, such a funny, stupid moment where I, and I'm not saying this is like the whole downfall of the marriage, but this is where it started to unravel for me, was about a year in, I had felt very, very comfortable being intimate with my ex-husband and really had fun with that. And then, but I also had a lot of body shame. And at one point I said to him, do you think I'm overweight? I was drunk. And I just, I don't know why I said it. And he, you know, very honest. He said, yeah, but I don't mind. And it was like, wait, what? You do, you think I'm overweight? And like, you know, he was right. I was. But he didn't care. But somehow I wanted him to lie to me and say, no, you're perfect. You're beautiful. And my ego was so fragile that that was enough to sort of send me into a tailspin. And I really shut down. And I found it really hard to be comfortable with him in intimate situations. It took me a very long time to come back around. I never, kind of never really did. And it's so dumb. And I talked to my therapist about it endlessly. And he apologized. And if he could have taken that back, he would. I think that things would have gone off the rails anyway. because I think there was just a fundamental lack of compatibility, even though I think, you know, when you're with somebody at first and you're young and you're so relieved and it's fun and the sex is good and it's, you know, you think that things are always going to be this way. You know, I wasn't thinking about the ways in which we were not compatible, but that was the moment for me where I really started to struggle. And I thought, well, gosh, if our sex life is not, you know, what it was, when we first got together, like, what's the rest of our lives gonna look like? You know? And I really, I really, I tried to overcome it. You know, we did go to a little bit of couples therapy and we just kind of never were the same after that. And then, you know, you throw in marriage, you throw in having a child. And I just thought, are we gonna be together like this for the rest of our lives? And I'm really dissatisfied or really, just whatever it was about our intimacy that had just changed in a way that felt irreparably broken. And I felt horribly guilty and I just, you know, very, very frustrated and unable to really put voice to what I was feeling. It was just years and years of that, of bad communication, of guilt compounded with anxiety, compounded with fear, compounded with, you know, not really having the language to say what I was feeling and, and fear of hurting him. And the way that I dealt with it eventually was to, was to step out of my marriage and seek pleasure elsewhere.

Does, what was the difference? You know, in the book, you talk about there's, there's men that you were with in your 20s that, you know, had just warning signs written all over them. And, you know, there's some quite painful kind of things to read where it's just so clear that people were not treating you right and was in some cases saying horrible things and saying mean things and so like, but at during that time of your life, it didn't, those weren't things that pushed you away. They were, it was almost like, you know, those would go over your head and you would keep going. What, what do you think had changed in your life that you know, something that maybe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like something that if it was said during that chapter of your life, it wouldn't have been the thing that had such a profound effect while you were kind of chasing something, but you had something and then someone said that, your ex said that, and it was profoundly fracturing. What do you think the difference was?

The difference, I think, was that I felt. I had felt very comfortable and safe in that relationship with my now ex-husband I had felt like. And it was a little bit of a delusion. I mean, to me, being comfortable and being safe meant this. This sort of false idea that he thinks I'm perfect. He doesn't see any of my flaws. You know, he sees me through. He sees me the way that I wish I could see. self, I think. You know, it was, and I felt like I had let my guard down and I felt like, you know, in my conception, and it sounds crazy as I'm saying it, but my conception of like what a perfect relationship was, was that was like, he thinks I'm beautiful and perfect and sexy and he thinks I'm thin, you know, and why that was important to me, I don't really know. And I had, you know, already invested whatever, nine months a year, we were living together. You know, we had met each other's families. And so it was much more hurtful to have him shatter my delusion, whereas I don't think with any of the men that I was sort of casually involved with who were, you know, sort of clearly not right, big red flags, I don't think I had let myself be that vulnerable with them. You know, I knew it was like, well, I know this guy is kind of a jerk, but I that's part of the appeal, you know? And I would never ask him his opinion about my body, you know, because it doesn't matter. It shouldn't have mattered anyway to, you know, with my, in my relationship with my ex-husband but for whatever reason in that moment it did.

Yeah, I just think that's really, it's so human and so fascinating that, you know, that the person who we then actually feel like we can show up as ourselves with. There is that feeling of, well, they don't, they don't even think of things this way. They don't even see these things. So I, I can really understand that. Did, when you did step out of your marriage and when you were with other people, did that, were you able to forgive yourself for that infidelity? And what did that look like? Because I think so many people you know, so many people I work with feel like on some level, you know, when they feel like they're the ones who have sabotaged the relationship in whatever way, sometimes it's, they cheated, sometimes it's, they were too anxious in the relationship, sometimes it's, they were too controlling and they pushed someone away or too jealous.

It.

People can spend a really long time beating themselves up for those things. What was, what did your process look like for Forgiving yourself?

Well, I think I'm still kind of in it. I mean, I understand what my motivations were, and I understand myself, and I know exactly how I got to that place. And the thing that I sort of struggle to forgive myself for is that that is the way that I was unhappy in my marriage. and I went about it in that way, in this very underhanded way, and there was a lot of lying and a lot of time wasted. And that is the thing that is harder for me to sort of forgive myself for than the actual act of cheating. It's not great. I know that I caused pain, but I think the thing that really cut me the most was when my ex-husband and I were splitting up, and he said, We've been together for 16 years. You have wasted 16 years of my life. I could have had a completely different life. I can't, you know, and that was like, there were many, I mean, you know, arguably, I, we could have addressed our issues before we got married, you know, or at any point. And I, the thing that I regret more than the physical act of cheating is sort of the, the cowardice with which I, I approached the whole endeavor of, of trying to figure out how to either make the marriage work or end the marriage. I don't sit around beating myself up about it. I feel like, again, the work that I've done in sobriety has really been helpful to sort of understand myself and understand the world a little bit better. And that's not universal advice because not everyone is an addict. Somehow, knowing how common it is, knowing how common it is that people cheat on partners, there's some comfort I take in that. And I don't know that that's really the most ethical approach to it, but anytime there's a bad decision made or something that I've done that's not great or a mistake I've made, I do find a lot of comfort in knowing that, well, it's extremely common. I do too. It's a mistake that a lot of people have made.

I do, too. I, I think. I think the same way in my own life about things I regret is that you, there's, when you realize how human these things are and also that there are people that go through their whole lives never being able to put eyes on, on themselves in these areas. I mean, a lot of us, you know, know someone. I think one of the reason that the, there's so much literature and so many videos on narcissism these days is because the most painful thing is dealing with someone who has no self awareness in that way and never takes accountability and goes their whole lives harming people all the way to the grave. And to, you know, I think there is something to be proud of for anybody who can own something and say, God, I wouldn't do that again. you know, and I understand what I did and how I hurt someone. I think that's a. There's, to me, there's something incredibly cathartic about that. And it's a catharsis that actually not all of us are offered by someone who's hurt us. How many people have parents who, you know, really, like, affected their lives in awful, awful ways, and they'll never get that catharsis with that person. That per, that parent's never going to turn around and say, I can see all the things I did or I can see the patterns that hurt you and I'm so sorry for them and I would take them back if I could. But you know what? In these last few years of life, I'm gonna change. Most people never get that.

Yeah, you know, I haven't, I said, I'm sorry a lot to my ex-husband in the sort of the heat of our splitting up. And at some point he said, I don't want to hear it. You know, I don't believe it and it doesn't mean anything to me for you to say, I'm sorry. And so I, I stopped, you know, because I thought, okay, well, I'm gonna listen to him. When I gave him a copy of the book, an advanced copy, I did write a note and say, you know, I am sorry for those things. I do still feel like there's probably a conversation to be had of person to person conversation. I'm not dying to have it, but it's been seven years now. We very happily co-parent our son. We can really cooperate on that. And we've been able to even, like, ride in the car together, you know, for 30 minutes at a time and have really nice small talk and catch up on each other's lives. And so that's really something I never, a place I'd never thought we'd be at. So I do feel like at some point in the probably near term, there'll be a conversation where I kind of, you know, with all of this time and perspective, can really just say, listen, I am sorry.

Do you miss, do you ever miss the highs of, like, your past lives. And does. I'm curious if fundamentally, you just feel like your wiring has changed to where the world you live in today and the, you know, the things that you do to operate today just feel rewarding and nourishing and. peaceful in ways that supersede any of that, or whether there is a sense of like, God, life feels a bit boring compared to all of that.

I do think my, I mean, yeah, I guess my wiring has changed in a sort of metaphorical sense. I can find a lot of pleasure in things that I think I used to find quite boring. And do I miss, you know, I think writing this book and reliving and documenting some of the sort of, you know, the highlights of my, you know, years of acting out and seeking thrill and adventure, that was kind of enough. You know, I know that I lived those things. I can remember the feeling, you know, the sort of the moments, the peak moments of some transgression. And I understand and recognize that those were feelings that I really enjoyed. But I've done enough of them now that I can see the other side. I know that for every sort of illicit sexual encounter I had that felt really great in the moment, there were weeks of feeling really pretty terrible afterwards. Or, you know, whatever it was, a drunk night out or a little bit of coke or whatever it was, you know, I There's something that people say in recovery and alcohol 12-step programs. It's, you know, play the whole tape, play the tape forward.

-Yeah, I love that line.

-You have the drink, and then what happens? You know, the whole thing. So I can see the whole part of it now. So I don't miss that because I know what comes after the thrill.

-Could you just, for those people that aren't familiar with that line, could you just describe what that line is meant.

To, It means, it means, you know, say you really feel like, oh, God, I really just want to go have a drink, you know, as an example. So, you know, someone will say, okay, we'll play the tape for what happens next. You go and have the drink. Do you just have one? You know, in my case, no. You know, I know that the way alcohol makes me feel, that's my engine has started. And even if I said I was just going to have one, there's no way that's happening. You know, I have another one, and then I have another one, and then maybe I do some drugs, and then maybe I start texting someone that I shouldn't be texting. And, you know, it's the whole thing starts to roll downhill and the tape, you play the whole tape, and then I'm, you know, then I'm vomiting or that I'm crying and then I'm, you know, having to apologize to somebody for something I did or said. And I don't wanna watch that show anymore, you know, I've seen it. It's got quite boring. So I really do, I think I was so afraid of being bored before, and now I see how much more interesting things are When I'm actually clear-headed enough to see them. And I'm in a relationship going on four years. And the most thrilling thing is that we will sit in a room together and read a book. We each read our own book, or watch a show, or take his dog for a walk, or whatever it is, really simple things. And I would hear people talk like this when I was still drinking and using and acting out sexually, and I'd just be like, yeah, whatever, great, that's not for me. I didn't believe that I could be as fulfilled by really simple living. And I'm very surprised and very pleased to know that I can find happiness in this kind of quieter, simpler life.

What would you say to a younger version of yourself out there dating, or even just the people watching this who feel themselves sort of continuously magnetically drawn to the wrong things? in people who, you know, see life as this constant dichotomy between someone who is exciting and just, you know, has red flags all over them and someone who is nice and boring. And they're just like, oh, my God, is this really like, this is the. The choice that I have to make is between these two things. Anytime I seem to find someone who actually likes me and is willing to go there with me, and I feel nothing. And these guys over here, oh my God, you know, I can't stop thinking about them. What, you know, I like what you said about like appreciating the simple things in your relationship today and how it's absolutely not boring to sit next to someone and read a book together and enjoy that. Do you have any advice or anything you can share with people that you think it could help them where they haven't maybe made that transition yet, but they feel like their well-being depends on it and that if they're not careful, they're going to stay in this cycle of people who treat them poorly or just never commit or never actually try?

I mean, for me, it was, it was, just again, sort of getting tired of it, realizing, you know, looking at the patterns and realizing, you know, what, playing the tape forward, knowing what's gonna happen, and really asking myself, is that what I want? Do I want to, is this little bit of thrill worth the bad feeling that I'm gonna have, the loneliness that I'm gonna feel? You know, and at some point, the answer became no. Yeah, I think it just really, it really helps to just be very honest with yourself. You know, in therapy for years, my therapist would say, but what do you want? But what do you want? And I had such a hard time answering that question. And it was the most, I mean, through, I saw the same therapist for 20 years, and that was the through line, was, what do you want? And I, and I didn't know or I didn't feel confident enough or I didn't feel like whatever I wanted, it was so impossible that I couldn't even really say it out loud. And I think once I really was able to just stop and slow down and think about and say and write down what it is that I wanted, and then it just made it all so much more clear to me that what I wanted was to to feel loved and secure and not sort of, I didn't want to feel vulnerable. And that, that was kind of it, you know? So, yeah, I don't know if I'm really, if I'm really giving any helpful advice, but I think it's just really listening to your, your true inside gut and maybe what you want is to have, you know, you know, exciting kinky sex with a lot of people, but, and I think there's a way to do that where you're not getting hurt, you're not getting caught up in, in, you know, patterns where you're feeling hurt, where you're feeling like your well-being is, is, you know, in Jeopardy.

When, when you articulated that you wanted to feel safe and loved.

What.

Did someone appear after that or did it like, what did that look like from kind of having that realization that, oh, this is, and I, you know, this is, this matters to me. And in a way, did you at that time think, and fireworks and chemistry is less, did you consciously say to yourself, like, yes, fireworks and all of that is very nice, but Actually, I'm consciously saying this is less important or was it no, no, no, but that still is important. But this is the non-negotiable that I feel loved and I feel safe. And how did that then show up in different results or did it not for a long time?

No, it did. Well, I'll tell you about this period of time where I, where it really clicked in for me. It was after my marriage. I had had another relationship or two after my marriage and those didn't work out. And then I had, you know, a friend said, go on the apps. You know, I was like, oh, God, you know. But I did, you know, I wasn't, I was sort of heartbroken after the end of a relationship and I wasn't ready to get into a relationship, but I was lonely. And I went on the apps and what I found was, you know, the thrill and the fireworks, but in a very defined, no strings, you know, nobody here wants to be in a relationship kind of thing. I had a, you know, I had a hot girl summer, but I was like 48, you know? And again, this is just my personal anecdote, but, you know, my friend said, listen, there's a lot of guys that are younger that want to date women your age. They just, they date, you know, or go on one date. And I did that all summer. I had a great time and I got it out of my system. And I even, the best of those dates, I knew that, okay, well that was really fun and that was really fulfilling. And I don't expect to see him again. I don't really want to. He's like, you know, he could be my son. And so I kept asking myself, well, what would I want? What would be the next thing? And it was always like, what I want is after I have a fun time with somebody, then I wanna sit on the couch and watch Netflix. And I wanna be able to talk about things, I wanna have breakfast together. And at the end of the summer, I got it out of my system and then I met a man who was very upfront and very clear about I want to be in a long-term relationship. I am looking for someone to be a partner. And I, you know, I want to be monogamous. And it was. And at first I was like, oh.

You know, so you met him on the apps.

Yeah.

And walk me through that, because I know that there's going to be people who are like, how did you find that one? Because there's so many people who.

Who don't.

Don't. They're not straightforward, and they, you know, love bomb you and make you feel like. you know, something's going somewhere and then they're not who they say they are at all. What did that process look like of talking to that person on the app? And you, at what point did he start saying those things?

Well, it was. I took it very, very slow with him. I think some part of me really knew that, like, he was worth, you know, not just sleeping with and moving on. And it is worth saying that he was in a different age category than, you know, the guys that I was just having fun with all summer were, by and large, quite young. And he's older than me. And so, and just reading his body language, we both were very similar in that it was like, there was a reserve, you know, there was a very slow sort of getting to know you. And I wasn't sure. I thought, I like him. I enjoy him. He's very smart. We have a lot in common, but we also have a lot of differences that make it really interesting to get to know each other.

Were you immediately attracted, or did that take a minute?

It took a minute.

And did, when you were speaking on the app, did it feel like there was, what kind of, given that the attraction took a minute, what was the kind of, And what was the fuel that made you go from matching with someone on an app to I'm actually going to go out with this person? Was it that the kind of back and forth felt consistent and that felt nice for a change? Was it that there was a kind of good banter there or it felt interesting? What propelled you forward when there wasn't, you know, these initial, oh my God, this guy's hot?

Yeah, he was and is, really smart and really articulate in a way that I just really, it just really resonated with me, that he was funny but not too funny. You know, it just said all the right things. I think we exchanged a couple of emails. You know, he wanted to move to email, and I was very comfortable with that. And maybe that makes me sound old, but, you know, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't send a dick pic. He didn't ask for nudes. I mean, he was just very. Respectful and very sort of old fashioned in a way that was like unusual, you know, for the apps. But it was the intelligence and the way that he articulated his just what he was doing. You know, I'm just doing some work and I'm gonna talk to my daughter later. He had a daughter that has a daughter the same age as my son. So that was also, you know, something that we had in common. And he suggested right away that, you know, or within a couple of back and forths that we meet and have dinner and see if we, you know, get along. And we did. But I also, yeah, I could tell that he wasn't trying to jump into bed.

Between dates, was he consistent with communication or would he disappear?

No, no, he was consistent. We had a really nice, consistent email conversation. And that's something that I've always really loved. You know, I treat email like letter writing, and I always have. And so, you know, to write and receive these nice long, you know, four, five, six paragraph emails every day or every other day in which you, in that way, we were slowly revealing parts of ourselves, getting to know each other, asking questions, telling stories, that really felt very comfortable and right to me. And so we went on a bunch of dates and I think we shook hands, you know, I think we went on four or five dates and we would only shake hands. And then I thought, oh God, this is, you know, at some point, like we have to either move this forward or at least have a conversation about it. And so then, and unbeknownst to me, he was talking to his therapist and sort of saying, yeah, I like her, but I don't know. You know, I was really, my body language was very like, Don't touch me. Because I just wanted to be careful with him and I just wanted to proceed with caution. And so then he hugged me and then we did over email have a conversation about what's going on here? Are we dating? You know, it's fine if we're just gonna be, he said, it's fine if we're just gonna be friends, but do let me know because I'm actually interested in a romantic situation and if you're not interested, I'm gonna move on. And that sort of forced me to address it. And I said, well, you look-- Such maturity. Really mature. Yeah. I mean, he had also been married before. And so I said, well, yeah, let's try it. And we sort of talked about our terms in very specific ways. Like, what is it that you're actually looking for? What are your non-negotiables? What do you need? And one of the things I said to him was like, I just want to know that you're not going to decide like, I like to have consistent communication. We happen to live in two different cities. We're together a lot, but our home bases are in two different places. So I said, I just, because of that, and even if we were in the same city, I would just want to have daily contact. Even if it's just a text or an email, I don't want to go a couple of days wondering if I'm going to hear from you again. And that felt very vulnerable to say that. That feels like, am I being needy? Am I being crazy? We have just started this process. And that was great with him. And that's the way it's been. I mean, again, we're still in two different cities. We have a video chat every single day that we're not together. It's extremely rare. The circumstance has to come up where we just can't do it. But we see each other every day. And that's the beauty of it.

And is there a plan for one of you to be in the same city as the other at some point?

I think so. Yeah, because we have kids, so we have to get them off to college. He's got a job that keeps him grounded in a certain place, but he also has a place in New York where I live. So, yeah, I think once our lives and our children are in a place where we have more flexibility, I think there will be a cohabitation. We've talked about it.

So do you have any, any words of encouragement for women out there who I work with many, many women in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, who basically will say, I'm the, the quality of men that I'm meeting is just really, really depressing. I'm meeting a lot of men who seem to have never grown up, who have no emotional articulacy whatsoever, who are on their second or third go around and have zero interest in commitment because they're now just just in a playground, in online dating, and they just. They don't want to be back in a situation where they perceive themselves to be controlled or stuck with someone. And so they're just enjoying whatever Freedom they now feel. So I. I speak to a lot of women who are really quite demoralized by what they perceive to be the state of dating, especially post 50. But what you're saying is very encouraging. And I'm curious if there's just anything that you could add to that that might restore a little faith to people out there who have become very disillusioned with the options above a certain age.

Yeah, I felt the same way. But I think they are out there. I've been very encouraged by Just the conversations around therapy or around, and I guess I'm thinking about, you know, things I read, the things that I read, the men whose work I read that I really like, and the people that I see on social media who are galvanized around, you know, whatever political persuasion, I think that there are good men out there. And I think there's a measure of patience, and maybe it's not, I don't know, you know, maybe it's not the look is not maybe what you, you know, the ideal, I mean, my boyfriend, I wouldn't have said that he was my type, you know, but getting to know him, getting to know his heart, getting to know his mind made him very, very, I mean, I think he's objectively attractive, but he wasn't my type.

Do you think people should give more time before they make those decisions about whether they're physically attracted to someone? Or do you think people make up their mind too quickly?

I think that's possible. I don't wanna generalize, but yeah, I think maybe there's a list of non-negotiables with physical type, but you don't know how it's gonna feel to be sitting next to someone or to spend a little time. I mean, I am someone who is very attracted to intellect and sense of humor and the ability to articulate ideas. And I've been in relationships with people of all different body types and different looks and different heights and all of these different things. So that has served me to not say, well, this is a non-negotiable and you've got to have, be a certain height or whatever. But I understand, like the body wants what it wants. Sexual attraction is a very complicated thing. But I'll give an example. I'll talk about my sister who was on the apps. She's a little bit older than me. She's divorced and she had a very disappointing and miserable experience. And she ended up getting together with someone that she'd known for a long time who had gotten divorced over the course of her knowing him. And they got to know each other through a business relationship and sort of the same as my situation where slowly over time, They developed a friendship and then thought, well, should we give it a try? And this is like the best relationship she's ever been in.

And she feels attracted.

And she feels attracted, yes. And she feels comfortable and safe, and they have a lot in common, which I guess is just to say, the apps are not the end-all be-all. I think that there are people in your community, not everywhere. I know some people live in rural areas or whatever, and you've got a sort of you know, the apps are great. I think the apps are like shopping, you know, online shopping for something. But sometimes you got to go to the store, you know? It's, I mean, this is very sort of old advice, but I think that, you know, just keeping your eyes open to the world around you, you know, church, 12-step groups, work, the grocery store, you know, my sister's boyfriend is somebody that she used to rent a house from. I do think it can be demoralizing, and I think the apps do also sometimes allow people to be their worst selves, you know, their most shallow sort of selves. But I think there's a possibility that you scratch the surface and there is something a little more there too.

How long would you have given it before saying, throwing in the towel and being like, okay, this guy's interesting, but I just don't feel anything sexually towards this person. At what point would you have kind of cut it off.

I guess I probably, you know, if I think if I really felt, okay, I'm not attracted to him and it's going to be very difficult for me to have a physical relationship with them, that's the point I would have said, like, I can't do this, you know, because I wouldn't put myself through bad sex or sex that I wasn't, didn't enjoy, just for the sake of being in a relationship.

So it's almost like that distinction of it wasn't that, you know, my heart was skipping a beat when I was in front of this person to begin with. But, and, you know, there was, there was a curiosity there and a, okay, not my type, but enjoying being around this person. And this is fun. And let's see what happens.

Yeah. I mean, I, I've also, I think I've had a lot of experiences of, oh, my, you know, I feel obsessive about this person. They're so attractive. My heart's skipping a beat. And then again, it's play the tape forward, like, you In a couple of weeks, I'm, you know, dejected, devastated. I've, you know, the mask is off and I see that this is not great for me. So I don't need to do that anymore.

That's such a good point. I just want to talk very, very briefly about something, you know, you said after Tony died or something you said in the book. There was a line, I'm hoping you remember it exactly. There was a line you used about heartbreak.

I think it's it. The cause of Tony's death was Tony, a human, mortal, grown man who loved and suffered so deeply that it killed him. Is that it? Or this is the paragraph. He was lonely and stubborn and delusional, and despite all his intellect and world weariness, he was a bone-deep believer in romantic, old-school fucking Romeo and Juliet style love. He'd survived heroin addiction and all kinds of dangerous and terrifying shit all over the world, but in a specific moment in his extraordinary life, he didn't have the resilience to survive the cruel and brutal end of his last great love affair. Yeah.

To add to that, tell me if I'm quoting you wrong here, but he had somehow made the colossally stupid but somehow wholly plausible decision to die of a broken heart. Heartbreak is devastating for so many people, and there will no doubt be people listening to this who are right in the eye of the storm with a heartbreak they're going through. What would be your advice to them who feel they have loved so deeply and so fiercely that it's now that that love is gone, it feels like they are irrevocably broken? What would be your advice to those people from the outside of that moment?

Yeah, I went through that before I had my sort of Hot Girl Summer. And I can remember the intensity of it and the devastation and the physical pain and feeling like, I will always feel this way. And it was so useful to me to have people on the outside, friends saying to me, you're not always going to feel this way. It feels, I see that it feels so terrible right now and you feel that you're not going to get through it, but you will. Your feelings are valid and you are devastated, but you're going to feel differently. It's going to take time, but you're going to feel differently. And I think somebody said to me, it's a month for every year of the relationship that you were in or some, whatever. I don't know that that's like great math, but it was something like, you know, in two months, you're gonna feel differently. And I thought, oh my God, I'm gonna feel like this for two months. That's intolerable. And, you know, I think about that now and it's like, God, you know, I barely remember that relationship. But I think the most important thing is to just hold on because you will feel better. You know, it just, I think it's impossible not to. You know, it does, I mean, it's such a cliche again, but time heals all wounds. My mother used to say, this too shall pass, and I'd be like, you don't know, you know, it's not gonna pass, you know? But it does, it does. I mean, you just have to keep living through it, and that sometimes is the hardest part for people. But it does, it does get better. I wish, you know, I wish that somebody had been able to get through to Tony and convince him that he wouldn't always feel that that devastating, searing heartbreak that he felt. And I really understood it, you know, when I went through it a few years after he died. But it doesn't last forever. And I think that's so important for people to, however you manifest that, just to stay alive through it is, it's really worth it.

Yeah. Well, I am truly loving this book. It's also stunningly written. I admire your writing capabilities. I feel like I could have a whole other podcast where you just improve my writing and teach me what you know. It's really entertaining and funny. And for me, reading it, there was no detectable anger in this book for all of the things that you have been through and the kinds of characters you've had to deal with. in your life. And, you know, it's a whole other story, the, the misconduct of men in this book. But you, there's, there's something really evolved about the way that you present all of the information. And, and I think people will really, really, really get a lot out of it. I hope that, you know, everyone who's watching this will get a copy. It's called care and feeding, a Memoir. by Laurie Wolliver. And I'm really grateful for your time.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Thanks for watching everyone. Leave me a comment. Let me know what you thought of this video. And don't forget to watch Dating Made Simple before it disappears at midnight on Friday. Send it to your friends, your family, anyone you know who really wants to find love but is kind of tired of the state of dating. right now. I promise you this will help and it will give you a roadmap for finding love this year. Lovelifereplay.com is the link. Let me know what you think when you watch it. All right, I'll see you soon.