Finding Love Whatever Your Age, Trusting Your Heart, And Handling Rejection (with Marie Forleo)

Hey everybody, welcome to the Love Life Podcast with me, Matthew Hussey. Occasionally we have a special guest on this podcast. It's not an interview podcast, is it Jameson? It's not one where every week we have a different interview with someone. It's normally just me doing my thing. Maybe Stephen, maybe Audrey, maybe you Jameson sometimes. But every now and again we have an outside guest come and join us and we try to make them as special as possible. Today's guest is Marie Forleo, author, entrepreneur, speaker, widely renowned coach. And we had an amazing conversation about dating, about life, about relationships, about how to find the right person, how to know when you've met the right person, how to build your confidence in this area of your life. I'm excited for you to listen to this episode. So enjoy now Marie Forleo. Hello, hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to another conversation in the Love Life Club. This person has been a name that I have known for many years, and amazingly, our paths have never crossed until now. I feel privileged to have her join us in the Love Life Club. named by Oprah as a thought leader for the Next Generation and owner of one of Inc's 500 fastest growing companies, Marie Forleo has created a socially conscious digital empire that inspires millions. She's the star of the award-winning show MarieTV with over 75 million views and host of the Marie Forleo podcast with nearly 26 Maria has taught entrepreneurs, artists and multi passionate go getters from all walks of life how to dream big and back it up with daily action to create results. She runs the acclaimed business training program B-School, the writing program, the Copy Cure and the joyful productivity program Time Genius. Her number one New York Times best selling book Everything is figureoutable is available now. So, without further ado, I would like to welcome to the Love Life Club, Marie Forleo.

Oh, my goodness. Matt, thanks so much for having me here.

It's so lovely to have you. I feel really special to have you join us here. I know we all do, and there's a lot of excitement about you joining us today. So, thank you.

I'm thrilled.

I suppose what I've been really curious about is you are married. You've been married for how long now? Not technically.

Not technically. So you'll see, I can try and show that to you. So we're engaged. That's like the technical thing, but we've been together 20 years. But please keep continue.

Got it. Got it. So you've been together a long time. When you are, speaking to friends of yours, being someone who has coached so many people over many years, and they themselves are single and are struggling in their love lives. What's your instinct on what to tell them or how to help them or how to guide them or even, you know, I don't know how many of your clients come to you kind of maybe not talking about business, but talking about their own personal lives and their love lives. What's your kind of go-to when people are struggling in this area?

You know, for me, I actually started off, my first book was a little sassy book called Make Every Man Want yout or Make Yours Want yout More, How to Be so Irresistible, you'll barely keep from dating yourself. So this particular topic area has been a big passion of mine for most of my life. And it started off, of course, with my own desire, because love and relationships for me, You know, it's a cornerstone of what it means to be human and what it means to have a beautiful life. And so in my own world, I have a few very close friends, one of which who when her and I first became friends, she was single for a long time. And so we'd often talk about relationships and her dating life. And she is extremely beautiful inside and out. She's extremely talented and super and curious. All of those incredible human qualities I think that all of us would like in a partner. And I'm thinking of another dear friend of mine who I went to college with who is actually still single. And so we've had these conversations. And the first place that I always try and go with anyone is listening, really, really hearing from their point of view, their desires, their frustration points, their curiosity points, their history in terms of, wow, you know, this is where relationships went in the past, and here's where I feel like I've stumbled up and I'm kind of nervous about getting out there again. And so my approach, Matthew, is always to have fun is to have conversations with my friends that surround her out. Well, how can we make figuring this out, meaning going on the adventure of being open to love, being open to dating, being open to relationships and putting yourself out there, especially for friends of mine who, you know, they're not necessarily 22 anymore, right? And so they're at a different stage and season of life. they perhaps are at a stage and season of life. And I've had friends say this to me where Marie, I'm in my 50s now, you know, and they're up against certain ideas both in their own minds about biases that may exist on dating apps, about who they're going to be attractive to, and also just external societal conditioning that I think all of us can bump up against, whether it be around dating, whether it be around success or entering a chapter of our lives. Just speaking from my own personal perspective, I am 47 right now. So I come from a generation where I understand all of the kind of media conditioning that we've absorbed, or at least many of us have absorbed that once you hit a certain age, it's like it all goes downhill from there. So we start to kind of unpack some of those conversations, but my approach is always like, okay, well what can we do to put some of this insight into action? do you feel called to get onto a new dating app? Do we wanna look at your profile together? Do we wanna have some fun around this? So my approach is always to partner with, whether it's a client or a friend, to be that guide on the side, that trusted resource that's there to listen to them, to be supportive, and to try and hear what their soul is calling for, and to do everything I can to create some structure, maybe some fun challenge around helping them express that soul's calling in a way that feels true to them.

Do you, when you hear people kind of reflect that societal conditioning back at you of, I feel like I'm, you know, at an age where it's all downhill from here. I hear a lot people describing the feeling of having become invisible. What do you tell those people?

Well, first of all, I just want to call something out because I think I would imagine, and I'm actually really curious to hear from you if you see this reflected in all the beautiful humans that you work with, this notion of being kind of like past our prime or kind of, you know, on the downhill, we start having those conversations, at least I did in my own mind, in my 20s, I'm over the hill. I'm too old for X, Y, and Z. I remember them in my early 30s, in my mid 30s, in my late 30s, I remember them in up 40s. I have friends that are absolutely stunning human beings in their my friends in their mid 60s or so. It's like the conversation never ends. So I don't know what your question was, but I just needed to call that out because I think that it's really important for all of us to remember that we're not the problem. That conversation that we tune into is always going to be there. And so we have to have a choice. Like, are we going to listen to that? Are we going to listen to our soul and our body that says, no, I am curious about having more love at this stage in my life. I am curious about having a partnership and what might that look like? And so rather than listening to the mind, it's about listening to our hearts and I think the wisdom in our bodies. And if we can drop into that, usually there's a lot of curiosity. There may be fear, of course, there may be apprehension and all those things, but there's a lot of energetic excitement and juice. And so I try and help myself and my friends, depending on again, the context of the coaching or the situation, to come from that energetic place, not this one.

And I think that curiosity is one of the most beautiful things anyone can have. And I think it's one of the greatest assets someone can have in dating.

Yes.

I think one of the biggest killers of that curiosity, even if someone has done the work internally to reach that curiosity and say, you know what? No, I am vibrant. I feel good. I feel excited about getting back out there. If then they find that their lived experience is that, wow, I seem to be invisible to men. I seem to, you know, I'm putting myself out there, but it really feels like I'm not on anyone's radar. The guy is my age, they are all looking for someone younger than me. you know, and the ones that maybe aren't are just like, you know, they're, they're acting 10 years, 20 years older than I am.

Right.

Um, and they're not attractive to me. What do you say to people when that curiosity gets suffocated by someone's lived experience of, but it's not just that I feel invisible, it's that it seems that I am by the level of attention I'm getting when I'm out there dating.

Sure. No, and that's a very real thing. I always try and reflect this back to myself in this way. Where am I perhaps doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? So for instance, I'm thinking about a friend of mine who was caught in a bit of narrowness around the dating apps that she was giving herself to be permission on because she had judgments against certain other ways of being on different apps, or even putting herself in opportunities that may be outside of her comfort zone, i.e. going to different style parties where there would be completely different social group, right? And maybe they're into things that this particular person, it was like, not that she wasn't into it, but I'm like, Hey, I think we need to get beyond this little narrow window of what you've given yourself permission to experience, not because we're driving towards a result, but we don't wanna keep basically living into that same definition of insanity, which is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And so for me, it is about if your lived experience is like, hey, I seem invisible. It's like, okay, well, let's try a different tactic. Do we need to try a different app? Do you as a human need to be a bit more playful? Like, I just need to calm myself out on this one. So, you know, you had mentioned I've been with my partner Josh for like 20 years. He I had to be the aggressor in that relationship. Do you know what I needed to, I was the first one to kiss him. I was the one to say, this is what I want. And it's like, so if you're a person that tends to be like, well, I just want to hang back a little bit, maybe you need to flex a little bit of a different muscle where if you see someone, doesn't matter what their age is, but you feel attracted to them, why don't you make the first move or go to a party and go make it the challenge of the night to introduce yourself to five people. Even if it's not about dating those five people, what is the action that that you can take that's going to break you out of whatever pattern that you're in right now that's giving you the lived experience that you don't want to choose anymore. I think one of the most powerful things for all of us to remember is that ultimately we are the creators of our life. And I say that from this place. It's my belief that every single person listening to this conversation right now, you are a divine spark. You are a divine source. Why? Because you come from divinity. And it doesn't matter what your religious upbringing is, or if you have none at all, it doesn't I think we can all agree that there is some greater intelligence at work that makes the trees go, that makes the stars sparkle, that brings the sun up and the moon up when it does. So if we just consider that, that you are an individuation of that divinity, which means that you are a creator and you get to choose your experience of life. And so if whatever combination of your unconscious and conscious thoughts has had you on this repeat lived experience, we need to choose again. and not just choose again from our thoughts, but choose again from our actions and how we're being and showing up in the world. So that would be my answer there, Matthew.

I think it's a great answer. And, you know, that idea of the way that we're showing up, I think is, it's so, it can be so subtle and we can make very subtle changes that on the outside aren't even that big, but on the inside feel like They're huge, even just the act of smiling or half smiling at people in a coffee shop if you don't normally do it, maybe a few millimeters on your face, but internally it feels like a mile that you've had to walk in order to make that very subtle external shift. But I really believe that those subtle external shifts they are the difference between completely different lives.

Yes.

It is very hard to get out of that groove.

It is hard to get out of that groove. I remember one of the tips that was in Make Every Man Want You, which is still a really fun book, was around giving yourself permission to just flirt your way through life, not in an inappropriate way, but I'm building off of what you said of like just having that little smile, you know, and the smile could be directed towards a puppy that you see down the street, that little smile, or, and when I'm saying flirtatious, I'm saying in a very playful, the generosity of your, of your heart and your spirit kind of way. We're not kind of putting it through the tone of anything sexual. It is about connection of human spirit. And so there may be a toddler and a mom, and you wink at them and, and, and silently send them, wow, you look fabulous, or, oh, my goodness, look at the aliveness in that baby. And then when you show up at the Cafe, whoever's behind the counter, you give them a compliment and smile and like send that little flirtatious energy that way, not in a way that makes anyone uncomfortable, but in a way that is opening of your soul and of your spirit to be open to connection. And I think you're so right, Matthew, like the tiniest little shift, a wink, a smile, an invitation, letting someone know that they look absolutely, their energy is beautiful today and thank you for that. Those are the kind of micro shifts that can lead to a macro transformation in your experience. And it doesn't require that you come a whole different person. It doesn't require that you do anything that's uncomfortable, but it's a way more playful way to go through life. And for me, whenever I find myself feeling like again, caught in that, Brownhogs day kind of loop of stuck in a particular pattern, it's those type of simple actions that can produce Biggest breakthroughs.

I agree. I agree. It's funny, I, because I'm, when I hear, you know, those, those micro shifts create macro differences in life, you can't, the shift that has to happen behind those micro shifts is, can be very significant in terms of our beliefs. I, when, you know, I, when you were just talking a minute ago.

About.

How you were a little more proactive in your relationship with Josh.

I was a grass. Right.

When I look at that, there's a belief system under that that was serving you there that's allowed you to be in the relationship that you are today. I know going back in my own life, that I was in many ways too guarded sometimes to do what you did. There was an element of, I'm going to make sure 1000% someone likes me at least as much as I like them, if not more, before I do anything that could expose me or make me vulnerable. And I think a lot of people have that that deep fear that if I'm the aggressor in this situation, if I'm the one who's going after it, even if they relent, what if it means that they don't like me as much as I like them? And what if that haunts me later down the line in the relationship? And that belief changes how you go about everything in your dating life. So I'm almost curious. to say, what was the belief that allowed you to do that in a way that worked for you in a way that so many people wouldn't because they're too guarded and too afraid of being hurt?

Yeah. So I'm gonna be just super transparent. I am a very body-led person, meaning that I am in touch with the wisdom in my body, and I try and pay more attention to the messages that are coming through me somatically, viscerally from my heart. And when Josh and I first were together, physically in person, meaning we were near each other, I felt such a magnetic attraction to him that that magnetic kind of physical attraction overrode whatever insecurity and crappy beliefs were 100% running around in this head because most of us have a lot of things that we're carrying around there. and I also was so excited about the possibility of just connecting with this human. I think one of the things that really served me was like, well, if he doesn't like me, then at least I know. So because I'm a person who has a lot of energy and there's a lot of things I want to do in the world, it was almost as if Matthew, I was like, well, at least then I'll know if he doesn't like me, then I can move on. Like, I wouldn't torture myself about it for months, like thinking whether or not was it is, is it is, does he not like me? And to also knew for sure. And I think most of us, we do have this wisdom within us. So when I made the move to kiss him and literally what I got back, like, let me show you guys, this is how funny it was. Like, I went to kiss him and he literally his like mouth didn't move. It was as though I was like kissing absolutely not there. So I had the first thought, like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Like, do you know, maybe he's like not into it. But I just went for it and I was like, oh, is that okay? And he's like, and he was just in shock because I don't think he had been around a woman who was as as forward as I was. But once I got past that little bit of fear and then we laughed and we giggled and, you know, 20 plus years later, here we are. It, it's great to give yourself permission to take risks because you waste so much less time and, you know, either it is or it ain't. And if it ain't, that just gives you a lot more space to move on to what's next.

What do you say to people who feel like the reason I am so afraid of situations like that is because of the sheer amount of rejection that I have faced. And I just can't, I can't take it anymore. I'm, you know, the idea of, of making another move, of putting myself out there and just getting, you know, for some people, dating is such a grim landscape where it's like one, rejection after a next that it wears them down to the point of going, I just can't, I can't take it anymore. I don't want to put myself out there. What do you say to those people?

Well, I think, first of all, that may be a great clue that you just need to take a break for a little bit. You know, I think giving ourselves permission to rest and recharge and to gain a new perspective, you know, if I am going down any path in my life, and again, I keep hitting a brick wall, it seems to be a pattern. That's a great opportunity to step back and go, what might I need change here? What might I need to do differently? Is there a coaching program? Is there a therapeutic program? Are there some new books I need to read? Why don't I just take a pause and see if I can tap back into my own wisdom and say, what would really support me right now? You know, and it may be an external source of support, and it may also come from your own willingness to be still and ask yourself the questions and see what comes up. I'm such a huge believer, Matthew, that each of us has access to so much natural knowing, so much wisdom from within. And we have become basically conditioned and enculturated in our culture to constantly seek answers from the external. And again, I'm all a fan of books. I'm a fan of therapy. I'm a fan of, you know, whatever type of external support feels good. But first, ask yourself, whether it's through journaling, through meditation, you know, what is it that I need to let go of? What might I need to do differently? Am I placing so much emphasis on validation from another that I have stopped validating myself? do I need to have more fun? Do I need to really check myself and make sure that I'm understanding I am whole and complete as I am, and I'm excited to share my wholeness and completeness with another person who happens to be whole and complete who could just be a shit ton of fun. So I think that taking some of those questions and really asking yourself, especially if you feel beaten down and you're like, I can't take one more rejection, take a little breather, take a little break, do something to get some new perspective for yourself and also don't pressure yourself. I remember with one of my friends, I'm thinking specifically of one person, we had this conversation over dinner in the West Village and she was like, Marie, gosh, every single one for the past few weeks, it has been so disappointing. They've either not looked like what they looked like on their photo or there was absolutely zero chemistry or it was just like kind of laundry list of things. And I said to this person, I said, Dee, you know what? Why don't we take a little break? Let me take a break. Let's just not push it for like a week or two or three or whatever feels right for you and just like breathe and let's get into some stillness and let's see a new perspective. And it helped her a lot. I think the other thing to just note here, I'll speak for myself. I know, I believe you grew up in the UK. Yeah, you're here in California. I can just speak from the American perspective. We have so much pressure that we put on ourselves to like make it happen and get it done and get it done and get it on and production, production, production, production. and sometimes our relationship life and our dating life can feel like that, where there's also so much wisdom in stillness and in taking a break and in stepping back and giving ourselves a little bit of a pause.

How do you know the difference between when you're kind of, you're taking a pause because you're just afraid and it, you know, you're kind of copping out and giving yourself too much of an out and really needing to take a pause because, you know, the, you, you do need that Stillness and that calm that allows you to bring a different version of yourself to the table. Because there is that person who's just simply not putting themselves in enough situations. They're not being proactive enough. They're not taking enough risks. Yeah. And a lot of people dismiss dating altogether. And I'm done with men. I'm done with dating. I don't, I can't bothered with this whole thing. It's a joke and it becomes this armor that they wear to protect themselves from any kind of rejection. How can you, what would you say to people who are trying to decide whether they're being too gracious to themselves or not gracious enough?

Yeah, that's a really, it's a great question and it's a very nuanced answer. This is where I feel you can be so well served by a friend, a buddy, a coach, someone who knows you and has your best interest at heart and has the trust established with you that they can lovingly call you out and you can have that dialogue like what you said. And obviously we want to be able to do that for ourselves. But I'll tell you, I think that for most of us in life, none of us are an island. We can't succeed on our own. And it's so helpful. You know, I look at this through the lens of business, too, where I say, gosh, you know, am I giving myself too much of a break here? Do I need to pick it up again? And I can to either Josh or my best friend and ping off of them and say, Hey, here's what's going on in this mind of mine. You know, I'm, I'm dancing on that like, oh, too much of a break or should I put the foot on the pedal? And oftentimes really dear friends of ours or a great coach can have an objective perspective on us that's sometimes hard to have in ourselves. So I would say that to, and, and when you put your head on the pillow at night and you close your eyes, there's a little party that knows the truth. There's a little party that knows the truth. So I would say pay attention to that, too.

Yeah. Yeah. I I'm curious when. When you say that, you know, that it would be good for people to be more curious to whether it's a new app or a new social Gathering, whether it's a different kind of person than the person they are used to.

Yeah.

I'm fascinated by this because I do feel like we, over the course of our lives, concretized this blueprint of what we think a person we're supposed to end up with should be like. And it ends up becoming incredibly stifling. But we don't know what to let go of as we start to evolve and mature and listen to advice that says, Hey, you know, perhaps you should be a little broader or a little less quick to judge and a little more open to the different forms that a right partner could come in for you. But that in itself can be very confusing because you go, well, what part of what I'm looking for exactly should I give up on? Because this person over here, this stereotype that I keep going for, that's the kind of person I'm attracted to. So am I supposed to go for someone I'm not attracted to. And will that serve me long term? If I feel bored in this relationship or if I don't feel physically attracted to this person, even though they're perfectly lovely to me. What do you say to people about what parts of that blueprint to shed, but also how to find attraction in new sources than the ones that either keep hurting them or keep rejecting them or Don't seem to exist in the form of a real relationship.

Yes. Okay, so let's tackle the blueprint first, because I think that this is really interesting. I remember in my own history from Jersey was dating basically the same guy in different bodies again and again and again and again. And like as an Italian American, we have this term. It's called a guido. If you've ever heard of it, it's like somebody who's like, got a lot of muscles, definitely went to a tanning salon, definitely has some gold chains. So I had that same type of boyfriend. like, over and over and over and over, and it never quite worked out. And I remember when I first saw Josh, he was not that. He was very different than that. Different, like, from, you know, he's Jewish. I'm Italian. He's like a filmmaker or an actor. Like, all these different things were 17 years apart. Like, there were all the things that none of who he was on paper was, quote unquote, my blueprint at all. It was almost like the opposite. And yet, and yet, Matthew, I felt more myself around him than anyone I had ever dated. I felt more me. So the qualities in me that were seeming to get amplified were the best qualities in me, my sense of humor, Right? My heart, my desire to be expressive. And I noticed in myself that blueprint just melting away because of who I started showing up as. And then I started thinking back and I was like, wow, when I was dating all those Guidos over and over again, the most insecure parts of me were showing up where I felt needy or grabby or just like I wasn't enough and everything about me wasn't it was just I was so to be floored by how diametrically different I felt and how I was showing up that that's what made the blueprint melt away. So what I would just encourage is to not come from here. But if you have that incredible bravery to put yourself in some new situations and say yes to whether it's going to a party, being out at a social event, maybe having a coffee date or some type of exposure to other people that again, don't fit your blueprint to just to do it from a place of playfulness and non-expectation and do it as a way to start seeing how you show up differently with different humans, regardless of what their external form is. And then this is something that I think most of us know, but I can never hear it enough. You know, I think when we're kind of in our late teens and 20s and maybe even 30s, you know, there's still so much around the physical attraction and physical attraction, of course, is incredibly important. We know that. But we all also know that that stuff doesn't last. It just doesn't. We all change and evolve as we get older. And one of the things that's really come to me is how grateful I am that I chose and continue to love someone because of who they are on the inside. I mean, I've watched myself change all of us, right? It's not a bad thing. It's a beautiful thing. This is like part of our human journey is that we're not going to look the same. And the external shell is going to change and it's going to be different. But what are the qualities of that person that you want to be with? How big is their heart? Are they loyal when you're with them? Do they make you feel like what you have to say and what you have to think is important? And I think that's so individual for all of us. So for me, as a person, freedom is my number one value in life. And to be with a man who really respects and gets how important my freedom is to me, you know, and this is just little stuff, but But the other thing that was really important to me was I was very clear that I didn't want to have biological kids. And so many of the guys that I dated beforehand who fit that blueprint, they were like, okay, so we're going to get married and we're going to I'm like, do you have, are you looking at this thing? Like, have you heard what I said to you? Like, I have no interest in any of that. You know, I don't want kids. I don't want to get married. And so for me, it was a lot about the experience of being with people outside of my quote unquote blueprint that taught me it's about those inner qualities. and how I show up with that person that made all the difference. So pay less attention to your head. Don't get twisted about the complicatedness of it and just get your butt out there and start feeling your way into new truths.

When people find themselves in that situation.

And.

I suppose a lot of people don't ever get into the situation where they can have enough proximity to feel at home with someone or to notice that I, my best qualities are coming out because they've kind of, especially if they're dating mostly online, they're, those people don't even get through the door because they don't look the way that the normal people they go for look. And so I think real life still has the advantage of we surprise ourselves in real life. We rarely surprise ourselves on dating apps. You know, we We don't go through dating apps scrolling and suddenly get surprised that we're attracted to someone that looks nothing like the kind of people we're attracted to. But in real life, someone can look nothing like the people we're attracted to. And because of something that's going on in person, we are surprised and we do give them that extra chance. So I, it does make me, I do think it's another reason why, even if dating apps are part of the portfolio of action that you take in your dating life, real life, and putting yourself in situations where you can bump into people and have surprising interactions is really important. But for people that find themselves in that situation, how do you, how did you listen to that and not go back to your programming? Because our wiring can be so strong.

Yes.

And we have been attracted to a certain kind of person or even a certain dynamic. We think we hate being the one chasing or the one that feels like we're being needy or someone who's hard to get, but something about that dynamic we're addicted to, and there's a kind of a rush to getting a person like that, whereas a person that's just standing in front of us facing us, meeting us where we are, may seem almost vanilla by comparison to that person that normally makes us work for it. But the person that makes us work for it inevitably breaks our heart. So, but we're used to that wiring. So when you, you've spoken a lot about listening to your body, listening to how you feel about things, being in touch with yourself. Perhaps that's part of the answer, but A lot of us just, when we come across something that's alien, we so quickly, even if maybe it feels good or we don't even, maybe we're not even in touch with ourselves enough to be able to consciously know that it feels good, but we very quickly go, that's interesting. Now I'm going to go straight for that guy who won't text me back.

Right.

How did you switch your programming so that you actually listen to that feeling of, wow, I feel more at home here. And that might be not suggesting for one moment that you don't have physical attraction to your partner, Josh, but that might be the more important thing here than trying to find the most physically attractive person in the room or the person that excites me the most instantly because they replicate some blueprint I've had in the past.

Yeah, no, the bad boy thing, 100%. I think for me, it was so painful and so torturesome the relationships that I had had before. Because I'm someone who's very creative and very bold and very ambitious, it almost to me, Matthew felt like my dating life and my relationship life was this big black hole of like a pain in the ass where my not best self was coming up. It was taking me off track. I was insecure. What am I doing? Who is this? Like it was so much emotional, mental, psychological space in my life that wasn't good. It wasn't like it was exciting. And then all of a sudden when I had this contrast where I was like, wow, this guy's fun, he's funny, he's different, I'm showing up different. And it's as though I felt like I expanded, not expanded because he was so great. It was like, oh my gosh, this is what a healthy relationship could be like. that's what helped me break that pattern because there was so much of the negativity that I was used to in my patterning that all of a sudden went away. It's almost like, you know, if you're used to an air conditioner being on in the room and you're just living with that hum all the time and you're like, oh, this is much. I must just have to live with this. This is like what the sound is, and it's just grating on me. And then all of a sudden, you turn off the air conditioner, and you're like, wait a minute, it could be different. I didn't even know it could be different. And so there's, like, this rush or surge of newness for me. That's what it was like, and I have to say this. I think for each of us as human beings, we have to decide how do we want the quality of our lives to be? How do we want the quality of our lives to be? How do we want the quality of our relationships to be? What are we truly interested in? And for me, I was clear that I wanted a partner that was fun and trustworthy and someone who intrinsically felt like loyalty, like where we had a lineup of inner values. and I'm very clear in my inner values. I mean, even for me, it was important to me. I wanted to be able to talk about money. I wanted to be able to talk about and be excited about my career. I wanted to be able to be with someone who really got the intensity of who I am and didn't try and kind of dial me down. That's aside from the marriage and the kids thing. So I think another piece of breaking that habitual pattern is getting clear about what are the values that are important to and how do you want this love life to go? And if you're kind of meeting with people who instantly, it's like, no, that ain't possible. It's like, trust yourself, move on. Go ahead, swipe, go next, next. Business and love, I think, is a numbers game until you find your person. If you believe in such a thing as like, I want a long-term relationship and I'd like to have a beautiful, healthy, long-term relationship, let it be a numbers game. It's the same thing in business. If you just go at bat, you know, and go for like a client or try and make a sale once a month or once a week, you're going to be a lot slower to build that business than the person who's like, next. Okay, you don't want what I have to offer. Okay, next. And you do it with a smile and you do it with enthusiasm. Does that take practice?

Yeah. Is it easier said than done? Yeah, but it works. What do you say to people who maybe feel that feeling of being at home, but they're worried they don't have the the, the chemistry. How long do you think people should give it before deciding there isn't enough chemistry to, you know, I'm a big believer that you don't need to maximize chemistry, but it's a box that needs to be checked, right? It's not, you don't need the most chemistry you've ever felt in your life. You need chemistry. And it, at what point do you think people should say, okay, I don't. I don't have quite enough here to carry me into a romantic relationship as opposed to a friendship.

Correct. I think that's between you and you. And most of us, we know the truth. Like, it's. It's like when you are really still with yourself, you know whether or not it's like, okay, this ain't it. Like, I do not feel it for this guy. I am not excited at all about having any kind of intimacy or sexual. Like, you just got to be real straight with yourself. And to your point, I think if it's. If it's not. not there at the top. Like, for Josh and I, it was like, you know, chemistry was on. It was electric. Like, our bodies just wanted to be near each other and next to each other. And, like, I needed my elbows to touch him if we were sitting near each other. So, like, that was real. And I think for most of us, it is a significant thing. But, you know, after 20 years, do we have that same level of that? We don't, but we have intimacy on a different level. We've evolved it, and that's something that you can work on. So I think it's about being super duper. super honest with yourself. You got to be real. And then I think in terms of long term, and I would love to get here, is making sure that if this is a person you think you're going to potentially go to distance with, is to get some tools in your tool belt for how to make a relationship healthy over the long term. And I can share some of my best ones because, you know, Josh and I have had our ups and downs, and one of the most powerful forms of therapy slash toolkit that I've ever come across is the work of Harville Hendricks and Helen LaKelly Hunt, Getting the Love youe Want, learning how to have what's called a dialogue. It's part of a body of work called Imago Therapy. I think it's honestly, it should be required work for every human on the planet, regardless of who you are, what you're up to, what you desire.

What's been the biggest insight for you on how to make something last that you've found most practical in application in your relationship?

I think it is the, for me, it's the practice of dialogue of really being able to step into your partner's shoes to, especially at times of conflict, to not only hear what they're saying and listen to what they're saying, but to be able to reflect back to them. exactly where they're coming from so that they say, yeah, you got that. So that I can communicate if Josh and I, you know, get into it and he's upset that I can represent his point of view accurately enough to him where he feels fully seen, fully heard, fully respected. That one ability alone has allowed us to navigate over two decades of being human and living life together. That's not always easy. And once you have that level of genuine heart connection reestablished, then all of a sudden, whatever challenges you're facing are on the table and you're doing it from a place of love. You're connecting and seeing the other person's point of view from a place of genuine love and wanting the best for them. Honesty comes online. vulnerability comes online. And I found it, Matthew, to be quite magical. It's like at moments when we literally want to like just ring each other's necks and you're like, I can't even stand you anymore, you know, like you're in that place with your partner. It has been shocking to me how quickly that tool of having what they call a dialogue has gone from like, I want to walk out of the house to crying in his arms and we're connected and it feels exactly like day one.

Again.

It's wild. That.

You know, everything you just said strikes me as just as important in making sure that a relationship gets off the ground as in keeping one. Because I think the reason so many people bail on either side in the dating phase is because they don't feel understood and they don't feel heard and they have their first real argument. And what do you know about what you have until you have your first real argument? And you see how you handle it and how the dust settles. That argument becomes the end because they. The, you know, you see patterns and someone shuts down, someone runs away, someone ghosts someone else, some, you know, and those patterns. end up being the thing. It's like at their core, they might have worked, but because of these behaviors on the surface, they immediately repel each other. When you're in that moment, because I think this applies in both cases, long term and early dating, when you're trying to get a relationship, when you're feeling in the heat of the moment and you feel hurt and you feel angry and or you feel afraid, you do not feel understood. How do you get over yourself and your emotions in that moment enough to even sit with someone else's point of view at the very time when it is the last thing you want to do?

Yes. Oh, my gosh. What a great question. So, this is why I think the training is so powerful. I have found myself there. I have found my, I found myself there even after the training. So, you know, when we're in a position of feeling hurt, which is usually what's underneath the anger, what's underneath all the things, not feeling seen, not feeling listened to, not feeling understood, there's a deep level of hurt. And I think naming it out loud for me, you know, you've got to name it to tame it in terms of our emotions. That is just one of the most helpful straight up personal development tools that I've ever learned in my life. Being able to say out loud what I am feeling in this moment and to own those feelings, to not say.

You are- To him. So you'll say it to him.

And to myself, you know, I'm, yes, I will. And I'm a person too, and I had to learn this. So this was a growth edge for me. I am the kind of human where if, especially in relationship, if something pisses me off, I'm like, I'm fine. And it's like, clearly I'm not fine. Do you know what I mean? The emotion and the energetic Marie is gone behind like a transformation. former like metal protective unit.

Yeah, we have that in common.

Yes, right. You smile, I'm still physically here, but every part of my energetic and emotional being is basically out the door. And so I've had to learn how to basically not say I'm fine and not pretend, not direct that anger or that emotion and say, you did this to me and just say, I'm feeling really hurt right now. I'm feeling really frustrated. Yes, I am frustrated. Yes, there is something wrong. I might need 10 minutes to take a walk and then we'll come back and do a dialogue. You know, I basically try and outwardly narrate and inform what is happening in real time with as much emotional maturity as I can muster in the moment. Am I perfect at it? 100% not. But I have found that at least for me, being able to say the truth to another person in a way that is as not directed at them, but is just reflective of my own experience has a way of keeping people connected even when it's difficult. Right? Like if you feel your partner, they're upset, but they're not emotionally leaving you. They're not literally out the door. They're not ghosting you, but they've expressed some things up and we're going to take care of it. I may not have the capacity to dive in fully at this moment. I just need a few. that has a way I've seen of having people go, oh, this person's really in it. There's one other thing I just want to say, too. One of the things that clued me in that Josh was a potential phenomenal life partner was the fact that he was interested also in personal development. He was interested in going to therapy. He was interested in, quote unquote, doing the work. And I think that if you're someone who's in a program like this, you're clearly interested in learning and growth. you're clearly interested in how you can be your best self and bring your best self to a beautiful relationship. And if your partner who you're dating or just getting to know either thinks something like this is weird or they just either poo poo on therapy or poo poo on any type of seminar or workshop environment, that may not be the best match for you because what that tells you is they don't necessarily value self-reflection and self-awareness. and when y'all hit a bump in the road, which we all do, many bumps in the road for us, it's always been around, hey, we need to get some outside help here. And both Josh and I have always been like, yep, like it's either let's go to a workshop, let's go to a seminar, we need to go to therapy. Like we need to go grow ourselves to keep this love alive.

When you would say, I'm hurt. You know, I'm struggling right now. You don't blame it on him or you don't say it's your fault. You don't get angry. You just express what you're feeling.

Yes.

What's the transition for you from that to hearing and then echoing their point of view?

Yes. Okay, so I am not going to do this perfect justice. So anyone who knows Imago dialogue, you know, knows of the technique, you'll understand it. For those of you who don't, I encourage you, we actually have a whole MarieTV episode we did. There's lots of material online so you can get the real deal, but I'm going to give you my short, summarized, simplified version. So when I would say, like, I'm hurt, I'm angry, one of the first things that you do and you learn this in the tool is you ask your partner, may I have an appointment? It's basically a way of saying to your partner, are you open? to having a discussion right now. Do you have the time? Do you have the space? And when you say, Hey, can I have an appointment? Your partner has the opportunity to either say, I am not available for an appointment right now because I'm about to go on a meeting, but I am available for an appointment in about an hour and a half. And I would really love to have one with you. So what that does is it starts right at the onset to set up a container and to set up a structure where you're asking to be involved in a conversation that's likely going to be a little intense. And then you get both people on the same page from the get-go. The next step, as I learned it, you look into each other's eyes and you take three deep breaths. It's a way to calm down your amygdala. It's a way to start to kind of relax from the fight or flight response that many of us can feel when we're very hurt, when we're angry, when we're emotional. And it has a way of getting you back in touch with with your heart and your sense of presence and your prefrontal cortex, your executive reasoning functionings, which are great for having a more civilized, productive conversation. Then the next step, again, as I learned it, is you actually tell your partner, even if you're pissed as with them, between one and three things that you genuinely appreciate. So I might be like, even again, if I'm on fire, and there's like steam coming out of my ears and out of my nose and out of my eyeballs, flamethrowers, right? I'd say, Josh, I really appreciate you because this morning I had a lot going on and you took care of Kuma, our dog, and it really allowed it so that I didn't have to think about the 500 things that he needs. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Or Josh, I really appreciate the fact that when our washer and dryer broke just last week that you took care of everything and it was one less thing that I had to do on my list. acts of service are my love language. We need to know those things too. So then after I've said a few appreciations, then I would go into the kind of format of dialogue and he would start to mirror me if I'm the one that asked for an appointment or if he asked for an appointment because he's really upset, then I would start to mirror him and start to reflect back everything that he said using his own words and doing it from a place of genuinely trying to represent his point of view. not like, oh, so I hear you like, no, no, no, no, no. You got to do this from a purely sincere place. And it is magical when you get to the end of this kind of beautiful process. What winds up happening is a deep level of perfect perspective shifting and understanding.

That's beautiful. And that's a, it, I mean, as you say, that requires either a partner who's willing to educate themselves on a process like that or someone who's willing to at least entertain you bringing it to the table and explaining the format of that. What would be your suggestion for someone who's coming to someone that isn't conscious of that process? So saying to them, you know, do you have an appointment would be wilder them. But they are you know, that there's someone that maybe you hope at least has good intentions and you want to go through a process like that with them, albeit without in week three or four, having to kind of immediately make them feel like they're going through a kind of therapy with you. What would be your approach in week four of dating if you wanted to do that process without having to outline that process with someone?

Gosh, I don't know if I'd go there, to be really honest with you. I might to simplify it because this is just me being super transparent. Before I learned this process and Josh and I were together for a long time and we're pretty caring people who have read a lot of books. We're both really smart and we really respect each other. My God, Matthew, we would go down into these spirals where I was like, okay, this is going to be a really good one. We're going to have a really good conversation and it would wind up digging us deeper into the trenches. One of us would inadvertently say something or both of us would that would entrench us both in our own kind of perspective caves, and it would just not feel very good. So I think that one, to have a conversation and say, wow, I really felt hurt by X, Y, or Z. I'd love to clear this up with you. It's going to be tricky territory if you don't have that structure. It just is, because most of us haven't had training. And this is why I love this structure, and I'm not trying to push it, but it is. I mean, most people can learn it. for free. I love the analogy that they use, which is this. It's like you don't really need a license, right? To like, you need a license to get married, but they basically, you don't have to take a driver's test like you do if you're going to drive a car, right? You just go down and you get a license, but no one gives you training and communication. But with marriage or any kind of long-term relationship, it's like, why are we not training people how to communicate their way out of conflict in a way that leaves people closer rather than further apart. So I think going back to answer your question, I would be I would be really cautious about trying to set this up if you both don't have the tools or the training. But I would say that just expressing yourself and owning your feelings, not saying you made me feel this, you hurt me because of that. It's like, wow, I'm feeling either unseen, I'm feeling misunderstood, I'm feeling unappreciated. I'd love to talk to you about it because my desire is that we stay connected.

Well, I want to get to some questions from people, but before I do, I only have two more and they're perhaps more on the practical side of the spectrum. The first one, because some of your work focuses on using our time effectively and time management and managing our energy, because energy is time, right? Time has not got any value unless we have energy to do something with it. so many people struggle with their love lives because the rest of their lives leaves them so burnt out to, at the end of the day, even think about. And now, after everything I just did today, I have to get on an app and message someone and. Or go out on a date with someone I don't even know I like. And that's an evening I could be spending with my sister or with someone I actually give a about. and instead I'm on a date that, you know, is 50% likely to be disappointing at the very least. How, what tips would you have practically speaking for people managing their energy and dating?

Yes. So I think this is such a great question. It's so important to know your own energy patterns. Like for me, for example, I know that at the end of the day and at the end of the week, I have the least patience, least, right? And so I am not going to put myself in a position to make some important decisions. Thursdays at 6 p.m. and certainly not Fridays at 4 p.m. right? So for you dating, when can you put in a pocket where you're either going to look at the apps or you're going to open yourself up for say a coffee date or even a drink or whatever it might be, right? Whatever that looks like. Can you place that somewhere in your week that you're excited about and you're going to show up from a place of feeling refreshed and rejuvenated? That might look different for everyone. You know, it might be that you switch it around completely and say, you know what? I'm going to try Wednesday mornings, like just as an experiment. I'm going to try Wednesdays from like, you know, 10:30 to 11:30. I'm going to do some swipes after I've done a workout and I'm feeling my most optimistic. I'm feeling my most kind of fresh. I'm feeling frisky or fun or expressive. I would play with different time blocks in the week where you feel like you can bring your best energy, where your perspective will be the most open, where you're not going to be tired or exhausted or pessimistic, which we can all get at different points in our week. Does that make sense? So that that would be perfect sense. Yeah. Suggestion number one is to play with different time blocks where you're looking forward to it. it and then see if that time block doesn't work. Let's try a different one next week. You know, if Friday nights are like, no, I really want to be with my family, or I really want to be with my sister, or it's girl night and that's perfect for me. We'll leave that perfect for you. You get to dictate the rules in life. You get to put things where you want them to, and it doesn't have to look in the traditional way as everyone else does it.

I love that. What would you If we, if you could set everyone, there are, you know, some people in the Love Life Club are in relationships. Many are looking for a relationship. What would be, if you were to set everyone one challenge today, what would it be?

I would challenge them to find at least three in real life events. It might be a sporting event. It could be a concert. It could be an art class. It could be a church gathering. It could be a workout. It doesn't matter. But find three in real life events that sound super fun and interesting to you. Things that you could go to in your neighborhood or in your community, or even if you have to get on a train and travel. It could be some kind of retreat somewhere that has the potential to have a mix of humans of people that you would be available to date, right? So whatever your dating preferences are, put yourself in at least three situations that have the potential to have folks that you might be interested in and get that done ideally over the next month. I think, again, dating apps are amazing. They are one tool. I love how you put this in your portfolio. They should be included. But I love people getting back out there in real life for the very reasons that we talked about. So you can start to feel body wisdom so you can start to practice being around different people that may not fit your typical blueprint. assistant< end_header_id >assistant< end_header_id > And to have fun doing it. And I think going back to our challenge that we talked a little bit about in the beginning, if it feels comfortable for you and like it would be a soul opening to just use these opportunities to practice being more, I say flirtatious, I'm putting that in bunny ears in the most human and loving, compassionate, connected and playful way, not necessarily from a sexual energy unless, Hey, that's what you feel. And you're like, I'm going for it. Then bless you and have fun with your badass self, but more so in a way of these micro moments throughout your day where you can connect with another human being, human to human, and just start feeling that energy flowing between you. I.

Love that. I love that challenge. And I think I would just encourage everyone when you do that challenge, which I think everyone should do this month, I think that's a great month challenge for the Love Life Club. I would encourage everyone to not overjudge the situation once you're there, because when we're in a kind of defeatist mindset. And we get there and we're like, oh, there's not even any men here, or there's no one I even would be remotely attracted to here, or this is not how I thought it would be. Instead of being defeated by that, just chalk it up to. It doesn't matter. I added something to my month that wasn't routine. That's a win. I got myself out of my comfort zone. That's a second win. I have a story to tell that on next date, that's the third win. Like you have to start seeing those three events through the lens of there's multiple wins I will have out of this, regardless of whether I meet someone there that in any way I'm attracted to. And.

Matthew, let's not underestimate the power of trusting your heart and soul about what those events are. Because even if the human that you're supposed to date is not at the event, you might meet their brother or their sister or their best friend. There may be some connection there that unfolds into some magic that you cannot even predict. So to underscore your brilliant point, don't go in with the defeatist mindset. Don't judge too fast. Show up at that party or event or experience with the desire to meet and connect with people, and you'll open the channel to have connections start coming to you that you could have never predicted. for.

Sure. And if you meet someone who's fun and playful and got a good sense of humor and is smart and, you know, they're the things that you like in a person, but they're not age appropriate. They're not the gender you're looking for. They're not whatever it may be. Those people likely have people in their life that are part of that same culture. So what you're looking for really in life more broadly is culture fits as far as people go. When you find a culture fit, even if it's not in the form of the love of your life, you're basically inviting, you're being invited into a community of people that are a culture fit to you and the community, as you say, Marie, that's where some of the amazing wins can be. Well, Marie, before we do some questions, what's, is there something you have going on right now or somewhere you'd like to invite people to continue their journey? with you. Oh.

We'Ve got, we've got beautiful things coming up, one of which, if anyone listening has wrestled with their own ability to get things done in their life and have enough time, not only for what matters, but to feel like it is expansive and you're not being crushed by exhaustion and burnout and overwhelm. I would invite folks to come check out something that we do that's called time genius. And you can go to join timegenius.com. we've got a of free training coming up, I went through a whole experience in my life where I burned myself out and it was not cute and my health took a hit and my mental health took a hit. And there were so many patterns that I was unaware of that were just driving me into the ground until I realized that I did not have to live that way. It was a lot of enculturated things that I was unaware of that I even had in me. So if anyone is interested in being more joyfully productive, so you have more time and space for yourself and these beautiful relationships that you're cultivating. Come check us out at join time genius.com. take advantage of the free training. And if you want to go deeper, you have opportunities to do that, too. Marie.

Thank you so, so much. It's been such a pleasure to, to meet you and to get to know you better alongside my audience. And I hope that my audience, even those that have been fans of you for a long time, have got to see a different version of you today as well and heard some things they haven't heard before. But it really is a privilege for all of us to get access to you and your time and your energy and your wisdom. So thank you. And I look forward to more of these in the future. Thank.

You so much. It was such an honor what you've built and all these incredible humans here. I could not be more grateful for the time. So thank you. Hey.

Everyone, I hope you enjoyed this conversation with me and Marie. The conversation actually goes on for another hour, but the next hour is pure coaching by Marie doing what she does best. We gave an opportunity to my Love Life Club members to ask her any question they wanted. It was an amazing hour. It's so fun to watch someone who's so experienced do what they do best in real time. and people don't normally get that kind of access to Marie. If you want to go and listen to that full hour, you can go and check it out by going to joinlovelife.com. there, you won't only find Marie's interview. You'll find all sorts of different interviews I've done, master classes for every part of your love life, and you'll be part of live, regular coaching calls with me every single that is at joinlovelife.com I'll see you over there and I look forward to coaching you next.