How Does Money Complicate Love? (With Ramit Sethi)

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Welcome everybody to the Love Life Podcast. I am here today with a dear friend of mine, someone who is an inspiration to me, someone who has created an incredible world of his own with I Will Teach youh to Be Rich, the website, I Will Teach youh to Be Rich, the book, and now the podcast by the same name. His name is Ramit Sethi. We go back years now, and this is one of many collaborations that I'm excited about, where I get to bring him into our world, especially because Ramit, if you don't know him, is a personal finance advisor, someone who has made this incredible path teaching people about finance, about money, about their relationship with money, and now the relationship they have with their spouse as it concerns money. And that brings him into our world and something that I know a lot of people are gonna be really interested in because early dating is a time when we don't know how and when to bring up money or if we even should, or even if we should care about it at all. And then relationships of course bring a whole different world of issues when it comes to money and our relationship with it both as individuals and as a couple. So I would like to welcome Ramit to the show.

Thank you for having me back. You know I love this. I mean, we see each other for fun. I think we had coffee just a couple weeks ago. And so to be here is great. And I'm excited because you and your community talk so much about dating. And I love that. But ultimately it's about relationships in whatever form. And the work that I've been doing with couples often couples that have been married for 5, 10, 25 years, the dynamics shift. They may get deeper. Like if you're worried about money when you're dating, you're definitely going to be worried about money when you've been married. And I want to talk about that. I want to start shining a light on money and love because it's one of those things that we have strong feelings about, but we don't know how to talk about.

Well, It's interesting because I'm always dealing with people who are looking back going, oh my God, I could have seen the writing on the wall for this much, much earlier. And I ignored the red flag. I ignored that warning sign in the beginning. We often say relationships end the way they began. You know, whatever was bothering you in the first place often is the thing that five, 10 years later is the thing that ultimately sends you over the edge. What I almost want to do is take the work that you've done so far on couples and the problems you see and see if there's a way to trace back to the very beginning of their dating. How could they have avoided these in the beginning? Or in certain cases, how could they have even avoided that relationship if it was going to end in turmoil later on in the area of money?

Yeah, I love this topic because there's all these very daunting stats about money in relation. Money is the number one cause of divorce, et cetera. But it's rarely money as a general topic that causes people to divorce. It's usually something very specific. And you and I know this. In a couple, it might start with, you don't load the dishwasher right. And then it escalates to, you don't listen to me. And then, 20 years down the line, it's we don't talk anymore. I'm not connected. And that's the same thing in money. Some of the common problems people have with money are my partner doesn't want to talk about money at all. They just avoid it. Or my partner's a spender. I'm a saver. My partner worries about money a lot. Or I worry about money. Those are the common ones. But the way that they typically presented is a very specific problem. And this is how it goes always. They go, why does my partner always spend so much at Target? And they really believe that the problem is about Target or about video games or whatever. And I go, okay, tell me about it. And they, you know, people feel very viscerally strong about it. But it always is the case that Target is not really the problem. Target is just a symptom. The real problem is much deeper. It's about how they think about money, what their parents taught them about money, their knowledge of money. Do they even know how much they make and how much they owe? Those are the real issues, but we narrow our field of vision to target or he or she spends too much when they go out and buy an extra dessert.

Do you think there's an appropriate time for people to be having those conversations? early on versus kind of running into them later on?

Yeah, we all should. And I'm gonna put myself on the line here because I violated my own rules. Okay, in the first edition of my book, which I wrote in 2007, chapter nine, I was like, have a conversation early on. I was like, so good. And then I met my wife and we were dating and we started to talk about becoming engaged. and at one point she said to me, you know all about my financial situation, but I don't know anything about yours. And it's true. I did know because she had asked me some 401k question. I was like, read my book and show me your numbers and we can work through it. But I had not volunteered my information. And that was a problem. That was my problem because in a relationship, the higher earner has the obligation of having uncomfortable conversations about money. And that is something that's not really talked about. In relationships, there's often a disparity in earnings. There's naturally a power dynamic that emerges. It doesn't mean it's right. I don't think that the person who makes more money should necessarily have more power, but that is the culture we live in that we value that which is quantifiable. you know, we value, can you see it in a spreadsheet? And does it show up? But we don't value other things that are less quantifiable, which are equally valuable. So again, it's not right, but it's just the culture we live in. Therefore, it is the obligation of the higher earner to say, hey, here's our financial situation. This is how I think about it, but I want to make sure that you feel included, that you feel you have a voice, And I want you to know that money is not the only important part in our relationship. Okay, nice in theory. I didn't do it. And so that was what my now wife was saying when she said, like, I don't really feel comfortable. I don't know anything about your money. So we had that conversation. And I like to reframe from the conversation to a series of conversations. You're gonna talk about money for the rest of your life. get used to it. It's actually fun when you get on the same page and you stop seeing it as something to walk on eggshells around. You go, what is money for? It's source of joy and adventure. It's like a puzzle. We can create our rich life together. That's where you can get to. But you first have to crack the egg and start talking about how much you have, how do you see money? What do you think your rich life is? And what does your partner think their rich life is?

I always think if you boil it down, it's like it can be that you could always look at it if it was between friends, the discomfort of the person going out to a fancy restaurant with their friend and feeling like, oh, the bill's coming and I just can't. I'm not able to pay this bill or I'm not able to contribute on that same level. So there's just a awkwardness at the table.

So first of all, you said the C word, which comes up time and time again, the lower earner is obsessed with contribution. How much am I going to contribute? How do I contribute to this relationship? And again, why? Why is the lower earner consistently obsessed with this? Because we value what's quantifiable. So we believe deep down we have a deep, invisible script that my value is determined in a relationship in part, or for some people in large part, by how much money they bring to the relationship. And I'm not gonna lie, money matters. Absolutely, money is a small but important part of a rich life. But you'll notice that in couples, the lower earner always says the word contribute. How am I gonna contribute? How much, what happens if I decide to stay home with the kids? What happens if this, that? And there's just nervous energy about it. What's fascinating, I love your example of friends. It's very apt because I have spoken to couples on my podcast where the income flips. One person used to be the higher earner and then it flips. Guess what happens? The person who used to be the higher earner is now the lower earner. They become obsessed with contribution. So while there are very real gender issues, you often find that there are other dynamics about the higher earner and the lower earner. And we have to just acknowledge those.

How much do you find the the situation that's almost the reverse of that, where the higher earner is resentful because the lower earner has no real desire to contribute or just sort of stays quiet on the subject. And this person now who's spending a lot more or feels taken for granted, feels like they become resentful because they don't feel appreciated. that, you know, how do you deal with a situation where, or have you come across many of those situations?

Less than you would think. Less than you would think. We all have this idea that the higher earners sitting there like analyzing every number and going, you,'re not pulling your weight. But that's largely in our heads. Of course, I've spoken to higher earners who say, like there was a couple where he was earning more and she was trying to start a business. and the business was not going well. First of all, it was an MLM scam. I was like, why are you doing this bullshit? But it was not earning a lot and it had been years. So what we did was we talked about why was she resistant to getting a job? And in her mind, she had had a bad job with an abusive boss. So she just thought all jobs are bad. And we analyzed that and realized that's not necessarily true. But he also played a part where he was not being clear about what he wanted and needed in this relationship. It's not that he needed her to make 50% and make the equal amount that he made. It's that he wanted to see her succeeding at whatever she was doing. And this was not working. And sometimes we gotta call the ball, it's not working. Again, rarely do I see the higher earner being openly resentful.

You don't see the kind of that stereotypical gold digger situation where someone's just like, wow, this person's just happy to spend my money and they're not grateful.

This is one of the biggest surprises of the podcast. No, you rarely see that. But funny enough, we all have this kind of ideal or this thing that people talk about in relationships and money, but that's not really the problem. The problems are misaligned on spending. In a recent episode, one person said, Of course I want to save for our kids' college fund. Of course, that's what my parents did. And he was like, no, we don't need to save for them. In fact, if they wanna go to college, they can go to the military and get it paid for. And she was like, what? And that was a difference in class, how they were raised, again, something we don't talk about a lot, and a difference in knowledge of money. Like how does compounding work? Why does it make sense to start a 529 when your kids are young? Things like that. But the spending differences are real. Absolutely, the psychology is real, but That one example happens less than we think.

In that situation, did you find that the guy... Was there some resentment from the guy's side that he would have to compromise on his life now for kids? And it was like feeling like it was taking something away from him. Did he want kids as much as her? I'm curious.

Okay, so you basically read right into it. He said something that blew blew me away. I've spoken to a lot of people about money, and he said something like, why do our kids need to take my money so they can party in school? And I'm an Indian guy. We pay for our kids to go to any level of education they want. You know, my parents had no money. They're like, we'll find it. We'll find a way. And so to hear this totally blew my mind because I never would have come up with that phrase in a thousand years, but that's what I love. about couples. Every couple has deep similarities, but unique special differences. Here's one, he goes, why does my kids need to party with my money? And I go, okay, that's an interesting way to look at it. But I kept digging. It's not my job to tell them you're wrong, except in rare cases, which I relish. And so I said, okay, let's keep going. Why? What does that mean? How much money do you actually need? Da, da, da, da, da. And I kept digging. It's like peeling an onion. And at one point, they love to travel. I said, what kind of trips you take? Well, we go to Disneyland, we do this. Oh, in a few years we have our 10-year anniversary. Oh, where are you gonna go? Japan. And his face is just lighting up. I go, Wow, I love Japan too. What do you love about it? And he goes, Kid-free vacation. Big smile. I go, Really? You like to travel without your kids? He goes, Of course. I go, oh, so what if we put some money aside so that every quarter you and your wife could do a staycation or a nice trip and the kids can be with the in-laws. He goes, oh my God, I would love it. And for the first time in that conversation, he got engaged with money. He was active. He was sharing his perspective. I think we should do this. We should create a sub savings account. And that was a way for the couple to bond. So we get so wrapped up in their argument presented as, why doesn't he want to pay for our kids college? But that's not really the problem. That's not even the field of battle. It is what is important to both of you and how do you create your rich life together, a shared vision, and then the kids thing will work itself out, which it actually did.

So what about if you then rewind to the dating phase, you're looking for a partner, you're going on dates, maybe you've started kind of maybe there's one person that you've now been on three or four dates with. You know you like them. It seems they like you. Yeah, maybe it has potential to become something. One of the most common things I come across in early dating is people just are sick of wasting their time. They don't want to go down the rabbit hole with someone who has different intentions than them. And it could be different intentions mean they want to fall around and. I want a relationship and I want to find that out sooner rather than later. Another conversation of difference in intentions is kids. You know, I'd rather know now if they don't want kids. And another one is money. I'd rather know now what their position is, how much debt they have, if they're in a position to be able to contribute at the level that I would like a partner of mine to be able to contribute or do the same things as I want to do in life. And I suppose what all of these conversations have in common, the commitment conversation, the kids conversation, the money conversation, is that it feels like a very difficult thing to bring up early on. We would love to know on a first date if someone was like us and wanted a family one day. But it feels like a very intense thing to ask someone on a first date. We would love to know if they want a relationship, but we're worried that by asking them if they're in the market for a relationship, we're already somehow signing them up to a relationship with us. and similarly, I can imagine it feels for people like talking about money early on has a whole set of what feel like kind of stereotypes they want to avoid, which is, well, I don't want to seem like I'm asking because I need someone to be rich. I don't want to seem like I'm asking because I'm money oriented or that that's what I value more than anything else. And yet, as you say, money plays a very crucial part in, you know, there's a great moment in the Aviator where Leonardo DiCaprio, Howard Hughes is sitting at the table with this very old money family. And one of them says at the table, we don't talk about money in this family. You know, we don't think it's important. And he says, that's because you've always had it.

That's right.

And anyone who's ever experienced a relationship where money has been a problem, knows that it becomes a very big part of the relationship very quickly. So we know these issues do matter on some level, but we're also afraid to bring them up. Have you got into the world of like, when in dating should this be brought up and how should it be brought up?

Yes, and that's also why I'm excited to talk to you because I want to see where we both stand on this. Okay, first off, I think we should all acknowledge that it's difficult to talk about money in dating for a variety of reasons. First, We're operating with one hand tied behind our back because of these gendered and cultural invisible scripts. You know, if I bring up money, am I being seen as a gold digger? I don't think so. I don't think so. But I can understand that that is a very real concern. If I ask a couple of questions, am I being seen as aggressive or too domineering? That's one. And then what about if you flip it? If you happen to be A particularly high earning person or if you are if we flip the gender, there's so many different scripts that are not written anywhere, but they're nonetheless real. And we have to acknowledge those. We can't I'm not going to come on here and be like, just say these 10 questions and then pull out their financial statements. Doesn't work because we live in reality. The other reason that we have another arm tied behind our back is that most of us are not particularly savvy with money. Do you know most people I know who are in debt, 90% of them do not know how much they owe and 95% of them do not know when their debt payoff date is. Most people watching and listening to this do not know what the average return in the stock market is. This is something that's not taught and that's why I get passionate about it because I find money to be incredibly inspirational. It's also woven into our life. It's where we live, it's what we eat, It relates to our children. It's even who we are. And so I want to be able to sort of shine a light on this and say, Hey, there's no shame in talking about money. We all have it. We all want to know how to use it. We should all be able to spend guilt-free on it, be able to be generous. And so if we start from that frame of, yeah, money is important to me. It's going to allow us to travel. take care of our families, maybe send kids to tennis camp, that is going to allow for our security, then suddenly it takes this like less of a, I have to ask this odd question. And this is an important thing to me. Just as I would ask a potential partner, what kind of food do you like? And then if they said, you know, I only like to eat boiled potatoes and no spice, I'd be like, get the hell out of here. This is over. In fact, if I found out I was dating someone for like a year and then they told me they like boiled potatoes, I'm like, We got to go.

I've wasted the year.

But just the same, money is important. Now, how do you talk about it? That's a separate question. But I just want everyone to get comfortable with the idea that it's okay to care about money. I care about it. I'm not obsessed with it, but I care about it. And just like food, children, living situation, travel, it's an important part of life?

I absolutely agree. And they are 100% going to be the questions that come up later if they don't come up now. Are there particular things that... I'm almost wondering, like, A, is there a certain date by which it's worth having these conversations? You know, do you want to be six months in and have not had any of these conversations? Is that too long? And which are the ones that you think are the kind of almost a baseline questions?

-Mm.

-It'S like, yeah, like, you know, there's always going to be very particular nuances in the way we do things, which are not going to be deal breakers for either of us. It's just a difference in what you like to do with your money versus what I like to do. And as long as they're not completely and utterly clashing in our values or in the amounts of our joint money that we want to spend on those things, then we can negotiate and navigate those. But are there any that you're like, these are the deal breaker questions that you really need to ask about money in the early stages? And what do they relate to?

Okay. So is there a specific date? No. Just the same as I wouldn't say there's a specific date where you want to be physically intimate. You want to feel that out and what's comfortable for you and your partner. But for me, when there are natural moments in a relationship to talk about this, that is a great time. So certainly at a one year anniversary, obviously that's like, hey, this is like an amazing, let's take stock of where we are. What have we loved about the last year? What do we want to do in the next year? This is a moment, certainly when you are considering a serious step, whether it be getting engaged or moving in, and then of horse engagement and the lead up to marriage. Those are obvious ones where it's a given. Nobody's going to think it's weird to talk about money. I think sometimes people fixate on that first six months because as you pointed out, they don't want to waste time. And that's totally fair. I get that. I think there are ways to ask questions there that don't feel intrusive but still give you a lot of insight. Those would be questions like, you know, I was just thinking, like, how did you grow up around money? What did your parents talk about? Mine, they would say things like, we can't afford it. And that actually, I'm still trying to work through that because I, you know, I started to make a little bit more money, but I still worry about spending. How about for you? Notice that that question, it has nothing to do with what's in their bank account, but it's really telling you about them and it's meeting them where they are. And I can imagine a partner saying, oh, we never talked about money. It's like very terse because people are nervous when they start talking about it. They get very nervous and short. And so I would go, if I'm the curious partner, I'd say, oh, so do you talk about it now with them? Oh, no, no, no. My parents, they don't, they're Midwestern. It's a Midwestern culture. Oh, okay. And how has that seeped into your life today. Like for me, my parents told me this and it was awesome. My parents immigrants from India and they taught me XYZ. That's been super helpful. But I think by the time I was 23 or 24, I also realized I had some other ways of looking at money. What about for you? It's this beautiful back and forth. Notice that I'm volunteering a lot of information about this.

Yeah, there's a vulnerability to it.

Exactly. And a lot of it is me admitting gosh, there's stuff I don't know yet. And when you admit that to your partner, they're, they're going to receive that. They may want to help you, or they may just feel open and willing to share because I guarantee you every single person, including me, has vulnerabilities about money, whether it's where we came from and, and what we learned or, or our credit card debt today or not knowing how to properly allocate our Investments. Everybody on this planet has some vulnerability. What a beautiful place to start.

If you have what you perceive as a major vulnerability, something that keeps you up at night, or do you just worry someone's going to judge you for maybe you carry a lot of shame around it. To what extent do you feel you owe it to someone to volunteer that information? I mean, you just mentioned a good example, right? If let's say you are carrying huge credit card debt, that is your kind of like, it's the monster in the closet for you. Maybe there were bad decisions at some point in your life, or there was a lack of education at a certain point, and this problem just became bigger than you at a certain point. And now you meet someone that you really like. It seems to be going well, and there's this part of you that you are afraid of. There's this part of you that you think someone is going to reject you for, someone's going to judge you for, maybe it's going to send them packing. What do you think someone's approach to that should be?

I feel very strongly that you should be the one to bring it up. If you have what you might consider a monster in your closet, and in most cases it is credit card debt, the second most common one would be student loan debt, And then beyond that, there is a steep cliff, it falls off. I strongly believe that you have to be the one to proactively bring it up. And I actually think this is such an amazing opportunity. So a lot of people, they build this thing up in their head, they spin and spin and catastrophize and go, if I finally tell him or her, they're going to leave me. And they're gonna say, why didn't you tell me three years ago? It's a fair fear to have, but instead to me, this is such an opportunity to go and have a vulnerable conversation and say, you know what? There's something that I've been meaning to tell you and it's really been on my mind. You know, when I was in my 20s, I was living in New York. I didn't have a lot of money. I was going out with friends and I just didn't learn about money. Nobody taught me. My parents didn't. I didn't learn it in college. And I ended up racking up $12,000 of credit card debt. and by the time I was 30, I realized I need to get this under control. And I started paying it off. Now it's down to 8, 000. I know exactly when it's going to be paid off. It's going to be paid off on this month of this year, but it just feels bad and it feels really bad that I haven't told you because I know we're starting to talk about our future together. So I just want to put it out on the table and. and admit and tell you what I have. And I also want to let you know that this isn't something you have to worry about. I have a plan.

And that, to me, is one of the most. That's the relief for the other person, is that there is a. There's a. There's a. You've thought about it. Yeah. You've started to generate a plan. You're also communicating to them. I'm not making you responsible for it. Now, what if when communicating that your further insecurity is, okay, all of that's fine. I'm not making them responsible for it. I have a plan, but it's gonna take years potentially for me to get there. And in the meantime, this person has a certain lifestyle. They do different things than I do. I'm quite happy. Having, you know, it's, you could even say in this example, okay, the person's not even, doesn't even need to live some lavish lifestyle, but the other person has a different expectation. And so now you feel uncomfortable going to the restaurant or you try to take them into a world where things cost less, but they don't want to be in that world. So how do you navigate that?

Okay, this is so relevant and this is one of the most common questions I get because invariably in couples, there's a difference in income. And as the relationship gets more serious, you start eating out more, you start taking vacations, you start potentially living together where the lifestyle is different. This happened with my wife and me. So I'll just tell you what happened with us. When we got married, she moved into the apartment I was living in, and we were gonna split our rent proportionally. Okay, so I made more than she did, so I was gonna pay more. But even with that proportional split, which I recommend to people, you split your joint expenses proportionally based on income, it still was a huge additional expense from where she was living. In other words, I had a higher Lifestyle. And even though we were splitting it proportionally, it was still too expensive for her. And to her credit, she brought it up. She said, look, this is really expensive. I love this place, but I don't need to live here. And it's beyond my means. What a great conversation. What a great conversation to broach and to be honest about it, because we're about to spend the rest of our lives together. We have to be able to talk about this. This is the smallest thing we're gonna talk about. And so we talked and talked and eventually I, again, the higher earner has the obligation in some of these scenarios. I had the obligation to help figure out a solution. She had brought it up. Now we gotta talk about it. And it was my obligation to help figure out. And so I paid extra, which I thought was totally fair. I didn't want to go to a less desirable apartment. I thought our apartment was awesome. Our apartment by this point, but it wasn't fair for me to say, well, I chose to live here 10 years ago and now you need to pay more than you can comfortably afford. So I paid an additional amount on top of my proportional amount. That worked great. And so that's not the only solution. We could have moved to a less expensive place. There are lots of other options, but these are the kind of answers that you and your partner will have to come up with.

Was there on her part residual discomfort that even though you had said, I'm happy to pay more, there's still some part of her that is like, oh, God, but somehow I still feel like I'm not doing enough or I'm not contributing enough. And how do you, you know, do you see that? That strikes me as an area where over communication is a good thing. If you can keep reinforcing this idea that, I don't need you to contribute.

50% and I contribute 50%. Well, here's what I so, you know, my wife and I, we ended up signing a prenup and that was a multi-month process which actually started off like pretty easy and then became very challenging. And we had to see a therapist and we had to really have conversations that we probably would not have had. And I learned through that process that I can say there's more to this relationship than money. Your contributions are very important, financially speaking, and also in other ways. I can say that once, but it's not enough. I've got to say it twice, three times. I've got to say it for the rest of my life, and I have to show her as well. And that is, again, this difference in the dynamic of the higher earner or the lower earner. You cannot communicate these things too much. And similarly, the other partner cannot communicate enough as well. They can say, I really appreciate it. Thank you. I love how we can talk about money. I love how we can come up with a shared vision together. At a certain point in a relationship, you're probably not counting pennies. If you are, I think, there's probably something wrong. I don't even mind if couples are, you know, some some couples, they have separate accounts. They actually Venmo each other. Fine. It's not my personal take, but what works for you? Great. But I think at a certain point you get away from literally checking every single penny and you should start to focus on a bigger picture. What's our rich life together? What are our values together? What do we care about? What do we not care about? So if you were to ask me now the type of conversations we have, they are about where should we travel next year? Who should we bring with us? Do we want to spend more in certain areas or less? That's like a very broad topic. To me, that's really creating the fabric of a rich life. And in order to get there, to have those high level conversations, you have to have a really good foundation of how you talk about money and how you manage your money jointly.

It's, you know, one of the things that it seems to me there's a theme of here is there are certain moments that provide really good stopping points for, Hey, let's, you don't even have to have it explicitly or directly. You can find those moments, whether it be a one-year anniversary, whether it be you're about to move in together. And so there's the question of rent, whether it's you're about to get married and there's the question of a possible prenup. These are all moments where the money conversation becomes possible. And to that extent, even earlier, I think when you're eating out at restaurants, it's a great moment to talk to someone about, you know, their relationship with eating at nice restaurants. And do they enjoy also eating at home or do they enjoy, you know, are they just as content eating noodles on the side of a street as they are in some five-star restaurant? You know, I feel like those moments are just as valuable in starting to get an early sense.

Yes, I love that example. Eating out, perfect, perfect way to create an opportunity to talk. And I think what you're really revealing for people is that we often think about money as this separate topic. So there's our relationship and then there's money and money is this really nervous and we're all insecure about it. But the way I see it is it's all woven together. Money is a critical part of your life together. So when it comes to eating out, yeah, absolutely. You go out for the fifth time, you go, oh my gosh, I love this place. I remember when we grew up, we went to India, we'd eat street food. Sure we'd get sick once in a while, but it was amazing. And the first time I had sushi was in my 20s, what about you? And you're actually learning a lot about, oh, well we grew up, we ate at a hotel every Sunday. That was a very fancy, oh my gosh, do you like that now? Da, da, da, da, da. And you start to connect over those things. So money is not this separate thing. It's actually deeply woven and there's nothing to apologize for when it comes to learning about how your partner sees the world.

Because it's exactly that, it's how you see the world. the volunteering information about yourself in that way is a, you know, it's a way of explaining your journey. I know early in my and Audrey's relationship, I quickly realized, oh, this is not someone who goes out and spends a ton of money on shopping, like on, you know, going out and buying fancy clothes and this and that. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. It was one of the things I really loved about her is that she wasn't materialistic.

Mm-.

And I know I had had phases of my life where I splashed out more than I do today.

Mm-.

Like where I bought myself a nice watch. And I'd joke with her and I'd be like, I can't, you know, even now, I can't believe I bought that watch back when I was 27. I would never do that today. You know, I laugh about it, but even that is a kind of, that's signaling my values. That my values have changed.

Yes.

In that time, there was a time when I was first earning a little bit of money and I started oh, I want that thing I could never afford before. And then I went through the other side of that and went, I just don't really care about that.

I did the same thing. I remember we were talking during the pre-nup process and really going deep on how we thought about money and spent it. And I remember saying, look, you see my lifestyle. You see the way I spend my money. We grew up very similarly. My wife and I both are Moms were teachers. We grew up sort of close by to each other. And by virtue of my business and luck and hard work, I was able to accumulate assets. But I said, look at how I spend my money. There's zero risk of me going out and buying a Lamborghini tomorrow. It's just not my thing, you know? But I do like nice apartments. I like nice clothes. And I like to travel. I like hotels. Those are basically my things. But I also like a really high savings rate. I love my compound interest. Okay, I love my Vanguard account. And that's what makes me happy. So when we talk about our money together, you know who I am by what I do. Do I show up on time? Do I say I love you? Do I support you in the ways that you need to be supported? Now, this took work as a formerly single guy. I was like, now I have to work with you to create our rich life. 'Cause she doesn't care about hotels as much as I do. I love 'em. She's fine with whatever level of hotel. And I think that becomes this beautiful conversation. Here's a question that you can ask your partner at any stage of the relationship. And the question is, What is your rich life? So I asked couples this or people and they almost always give me the same answer. They go, I want to do what I want when I want. I go, oh, God, not this again. I go, wow, that's so interesting. What do you want? And then it starts to get real. So they'll often give me perfunctory answers. I want to travel and have the freedom to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I say, like, travel where? And what I'm really looking for are these vivid details. So imagine doing this. over a cocktail with your partner. You want to travel where? I don't know. At some point in the future, probably Europe. Cool. Notice the excitement. Cool, that sounds amazing. Where would you go in Europe if you could go anywhere? Aggrandizing their vision. Sometimes you need to believe in them more than they believe in themselves. Well, I'd really love to go to Italy, I guess. Oh my gosh, that sounds beautiful. I could see us having wine, this sunset. And if you could bring anyone, who would you bring? Boom. tears, I would bring my grandmother. She's always wanted to go. In fact, she's from Italy. Wow, what would we do together? And you can see people dreaming. And when you get to that point, money is simply the means to get there. But money is such a beautiful entryway into accessing your partner's dreams. That is how you can start connecting.

I've always loved that idea, that phrase you've said of, you know, what is your rich life? It gets to the heart of it's different for everyone. And in a couple, especially, understanding what's wildly exciting to you is has got to be one of the greatest ways that you can support your partner in helping them achieve that. I remember doing Ed Mylett's podcast, and I remember Ed saying to me, he asked me something I think about like a relationship where one partner is an entrepreneur and doesn't feel supported, doesn't feel like the other person is the cheerleader they want them to be. And I gave an answer that he loved, but I don't think he expected.

Okay.

And I said, the problem is that being an entrepreneur, there is something inherently selfish about that. You know, there's something that's very much like, this is what I want to do and create.

Yeah.

And this is my dream and it tends to affect the people around you.

Yeah.

Now it may affect them for better if it all works out the way you want it to, but anyone who's been an entrepreneur knows that it also is extremely consuming.

Yeah.

It, the people around you have to be insanely patient, not just with the fact that it takes a long, long time to get anywhere, but also with the fact that sacrifices have to be made. A lot has to be said no to. Your moods are probably gonna fluctuate significantly between good days and bad days or despair at times. It can be incredibly hard on the person that's with a person like that. And there's this kind of rhetoric, especially with men on social media. It's like, I want a person who's like my cheerleader who supports me, who gets behind me. I want, like, the woman who stands behind her king and, like, encourages him to go out there and conquer the world. And I'm. I. I've seen what that looks like when it mutates into something bad, and I've seen it in many different situations, and it can become an incredibly selfish and narcissistic path that you take where you just expect the world to kind of revolve around you now that you've decided to pursue. this dream all the while saying, no, no, no, but when this comes off, it's gonna be good for you, too.

I think we follow the same people on Twitter. There was a guy who posted this huge thing about, Here's 13 ways I've been successful and built a multimillion dollar with all these kids, and he did not mention his wife once. And of course, Twitter was like, Dude, who... Are you married? Who's taking care of these kids? And then he goes, oh, yeah. shout out to my wife, and he just got so roasted, he deleted his account.

I did not know that.

Oh, that's great.

When you're dealing with couples and one or the other is saying, I don't feel supported, but what they're doing is like taking a big risk. How do you navigate that?

Okay. So I've spoken to couples where I've spoken to straight couples, gay couples. In these cases, I've spoken to couples where he was the entrepreneur. or she was the entrepreneur. And inevitably, you're right. The partner of the entrepreneur, regardless of gender, goes through things because being an entrepreneur is its own unique situation. In the best case, in the best case, the entrepreneur over communicates to their partner. They talk about how they feel, how the business is going. They provide as much of a semblance of stability as an entrepreneur can, especially in the early days. But in the best case, they build a bridge between the work they are doing as an entrepreneur and the relationship. Here's what this deal would mean for us. Here's why I'm working to write this book right now. Because when I do, it's going to provide XYZ. Here's why I'm doing this. It motivates me. And if I'm excited, then my readers get excited. Things like that. I think in the worst case, it becomes this maniacal, singular, focused on one person and also delayed gratification. Just wait. Just wait another year. Just wait two years. It'll happen and then we're all going to be happy. And I just think, what a terrible way to live, to wait to be happy. The journey is where we get to be happy. There is no destination. So I've seen both and I've seen it on all sides of the equation. And I do think that, again, the obligation is with the entrepreneur in that case.

I agree. I'm 100% with you.

They have to. And then, you know, I will say that the partner also has an obligation. They should probably seek out other partners of entrepreneurs and have a support community. There is a lot of partners of entrepreneurs and it's really helpful to engage in that. So we shouldn't just put it on one person, but A lot of the burden should probably fall to them.

So, I'm wondering now, if we take a step into kind of some of the gendered nature of this conversation.

Just two bros talking about gender. Yeah. Okay, let's acknowledge that.

I'll tell you, because we wanted to know, like, what are people really interested to know from this conversation with the two of us? And a lot of women brought up the same thing, which is, how do I deal with men feeling emasculated by me earning more, by me being the primary owner in the relationship, and by me coming into the relationship with a different lifestyle than he can afford? How do I deal with that situation? Because a lot of women feel like it is driving men away. So what Have you come across that dynamic between the couples that you're working with in the podcast? And what's your advice in those situations?

I have come across it. It's almost always brought up by women. I rarely hear a man saying, I feel emasculated. In fact, I've never heard a man say, I feel emasculated. It's not a phrase that, in my experience, a man will articulate. He might feel it, but he won't.

Come out and say, OK, got it. There's a huge level of vulnerability to that.

It goes as deep as you could possibly go for him. But he will use other methods. Why are we doing that? And other methods that somebody would use when they feel uncomfortable but can't quite articulate why.

Passive aggression.

Lots of all that. So, a couple of Examples come to mind from recent couples I spoke to. This was amazing. So there's a couple, she's an entrepreneur, and she came on the show saying, I would like for him to pick up the check once in a while. He said, great, I would like to too. I pick up the check. But when I pick up the check, she tells me, I don't want you to pay for that. I want you to invest your money in your Roth IRA. and I'm like, this is juicy. I gotta talk to this couple. So I get them on the podcast. You know, I love this stuff. I'm sitting there asking questions and eating popcorn. I'm like, what'd you say? No, you didn't. And I'm like, keep talking. But the amazing thing is we've never heard couples behind closed doors actually share real numbers, which is my next question. So I ask them, you know, what's going on with the check? And then I go, so how much y'all making? So he recently quit as a welder to start his own business. He lives at home with his parents and he pays himself $2,000 a month, a very modest amount so he can invest more in the business. He's doing fine and he's got a big contract and he's on his path. She is an entrepreneur as well and she makes $200,000 per month. She makes 100 times what he makes. And she grew up since the age of five sitting around the dining room table talking about Roth IRAs. She's very, she has a very savvy family. He did not. He's like, I don't know what a Roth IRA is. But I really loved their conversation. I loved his attitude especially because he was like, yeah, I know I need to learn this stuff. Nobody taught me, but like, I need to learn this stuff. And they obviously loved each other, but her expectation was that once in a while he should pay. Okay, we'll leave it to the listener to decide if that's fair or not. But when he offered, she said, no, put in the Roth IRA. So there was this feeling of, I want you to pay, but then, no, I actually want you to do, I want you to manage your money the way I would do it. And the fact of the matter is he is starting his financial journey at roughly the age of 40. She started at the age of five. How can we expect someone who started their financial journey 35 years later to be at the same level? We can't. Doesn't matter if it's man or woman. And so I want everyone to live a rich life. But I also know that we start at different places. I wish I could deadlift 600. I didn't start deadlifting at age six. I wish I had. All right, we don't do that in my type of family. So in that case, with the gender issues were absolutely riveting. She made a hundred times what he makes. He was very willing and potentially has high earnings in his future, but there was a difference in level of savviness about money, also in gender expectations. And so what I did with this couple was we acknowledged it. Why do you want him to pick up the check once in a while? We talked about it, put it out in the open. And in the end- what did she.

Say when you asked that?

It's always an uncomfortable conversation, but people are quite perceptive when you ask them the right questions. People, you know, they all use the same words. I would like to be taken care of. I would like to not have to worry. And things like that. And then when I talk to men, it's often like, I'd like to make her happy. That's very interesting. I'll ask them, what's your rich life? They go, I just want to make her happy. I go, that's great. I'm glad you want to make her happy. But what about you? And often, especially the older men get, they... Like we all know a dad who has no hobbies whatsoever. It's that. He's sort of put it into his family. We also know moms who give it all to their kids. And I asked, you know, what do you love to do with money? And they go, Spend it on my kids. I go, Okay, I love your kids too, but what about you? And so in their case, believe it or not, I wanted to find a way for them to both feel good at this pivotal moment of going out to dinner. And so it seems unromantic, and this is a very important thing. A lot of people don't like scripting things out because it doesn't feel romantic. It feels weird. And I go, you think that's weird? How about going the next 45 years of your life fighting about who's gonna pick up the check? That's weird. So let's script it out. Let's follow a script. And if it doesn't work, we'll change the script. And after a while, we're actually gonna start to feel better. So in their case, they sat down, they looked at their spending, and they said, How often can we go out to eat? Two times a month. Okay, great. How much are we gonna spend each time so that we don't feel constricted? We wanna get a couple glasses of wine, et cetera. Okay, great. We're all good. I go, who's paying? Remember, she makes 100 times what he makes. And we talked about values. One of the values that a lot of people want to be but do not live is being generous. If you're making 100 times what your partner makes, who should pick up most of the dinners? Seems pretty obvious to me. Not all, there's certainly an opportunity he wants to pay. But I said, how are you going to do it? Because she did not feel good with her putting the credit card down.

She just didn't feel good.

And I was like, why? And she talked about it. I go, okay, fine. That's how you feel. We're not going to argue with it. You feel the way you feel. So they agreed that before they go out to dinner, they're going to have an exchange of credit cards. She's actually going to give him her credit card on those nights and then Just like she saw her parents when the check would come, her dad would pay for the credit card bill, even though her mom made more than her dad. Isn't that interesting? So overall, when it comes to these gender issues, they are absolutely fascinating. They're very real. We can't dismiss them. We grow up with these coded messages. Men, women, what does it mean to be a man or a good woman? and I don't ever want to try to tell people you're wrong about how you feel, but I do want them to shine a light on it because it's not written anywhere. And once you understand what those messages are, what did my mom do? What did my dad do? Who paid for the check? Who said this about money? Who did I observe paying the bills? Suddenly you can say, is that what I want to replicate? Or do I maybe want to change some of that for our future?

Do you have a stance on who should Pay on the first date.

Well, I wanna know your-- I know your answer. I saw your YouTube video.

They crushed it.

First of all, let's just talk about that video. Okay, so I see that video, like, every 10 days on Reddit. I'm like, this goddamn guy goes viral every week wearing that dirty shirt, that shirt with a stain on it.

You know what I'm talking about. Why? Why? It was 'cause a woman with makeup on, who was significantly shorter than me.

Hugged me right before I went on stage. This is the real BTS of that viral video. Yeah.

I want to set the record straight. 'Cause there's a lot of trolls in the comments.

They go, why can't this guy afford a clean shirt?

That's what I said.

Right.

With a video that viral, you'd think he'd be able to buy at least one clean t-shirt.

I...

It was clean until I showed up at the venue. And then... And I've had to, on tour now, I have to be really careful, because, like, if a hundred people.

Hug you in a row... Yeah.

Wow.

What a story of heartbreak. If a hundred, women hug you in a row, then all the trials and tribulations you have to undergo to make sure you have a clean shirt. How do you deal with it, Matt?

Listen, I think we're learning how bad it can get.

Yes.

Because I'm dealing with thousands of comments calling me out for not even being willing to wash a t-shirt before I go on stage. I had washed the t-shirt. A lot of people hug me. I hugged them back.

Wow.

But I get lots of faces of makeup on my T-shirt.

Wow.

'Cause I give proper hugs, Remi.

Wow.

I don't phone it in.

Wow. So we all have a lot to learn from Matt's extremely difficult life.

My rich life, I think, is bringing two T-shirts to a tour event. Doing the goddy thing of bringing two T-shirts...

Wait, I always do that.

That are the same, Exact same t-shirt so that if one... So, I've never done that.

I should start doing that. Who irons your clothes? Do you have an iron here? Yeah.

But I don't... I get them... If they're like nice, really nice t-shirts, I get impressed. Okay. I occasionally will iron a t-shirt. 'Cause most of the time I just.

Hang them so they don't get creases 'cause I can't... That's fucking revolting that you said that. I was gonna say, if... Wait, what do you do? Do you iron? Fuck yeah, iron. Indian people all iron. I have the best iron. I have the best technique.

If I ironed, I would listen to a lot more podcasts.

Do you want me to show you how to properly iron?

Yes. No, that's- I think we should make that video.

That will definitely not go viral.

I want to make that video.

I would love that. Okay, we get the whole setup, we.

Get the starch- Indian man teaches white guy how to iron.

Yeah. We're going to start there. That's not the only, we're not going to stop there, but we'll start there.

Oh, it goes viral as who should pay on a date?

I mean, if it beat that, I would live, I would die happy. Speaking of deal breakers, I told, you know, speaking of money deal breakers, I asked my wife last night, I said, if I died, I love these death related questions. They're very morbid and fascinating. I go, if I died, and If I died. -Yeah, when I die. That's too real. That's too real. I go, if I died and you got in a relationship with somebody else and you found out that he paid a 1% management fee to a financial advisor, would you stay in that relationship? And I was looking at her like, Better get this answer right. Really judgmental. And she said, no, I would break up with him. And I said, Thank God, because I would come up from hell and I would snatch this relationship, it would go really bad. My deal breaker is-- and you said.

This over a nice dinner.

Yeah, we're sitting-- oh, it's beautiful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you're paying 1% to a financial advisor, that's a deal breaker right there, okay? Everybody, you could ask that on your first date. Do you have any financial advisor expenses? What's your expense ratio? And if they say anything above 0.45%, Cut 'em off. Game on.

If you and me were on a date, I wouldn't have known the right answers. I could have blown the point. That's the point. There and then. I love the idea that the two of you are on, like, a really romantic holiday somewhere, and you're sort of on a... She's booked, like, a candlelit dinner on the beach for you, and you're out there, and then I pull out my question. And you go through this beautiful dinner.

You go, if I died... Oh, I love these questions. I'd ask someone else. Here's the questions. this is the questions you want to ask, which tell you a lot. Because when I'm with couples, I just like to fuck with them sometimes. So I go, what if one of you decided to give it all up in beautiful LA or New York, and you decided you wanted to move to a farm and live on a subsistence farm? What would happen? And then I just sit back and I go, discuss among yourselves. Sometimes I say, who would be more likely among the two of you to go QAnon? I asked my wife that. I fucking love that question. And, she's not going QAnon, but I'm definitely not going QAnon.

She's more, she's more- She's basically QAnon.

No, she's not QAnon. My wife is not QAnon. Let's get the record straight. But out of the two of us.

She'S deep in QAnon.

Fuck QAnon. So I'm, like, in trouble for this one. None of the prenup stuff is, like, all good.

She's like, why are you going on?

If the caption on this major podcast.

Is saying, I'm QAnon.

If this is titled Ramit's Wife Went QAnon, I'm in real trouble. I love you, babe.

Ramit's wife QAnon?

No.

But we'll say, no, no, no, but when they watch it, we'll say she's not. Oh, yeah, that'll be great.

Right. But obviously we'll plaster everywhere as a way in. I'm in real trouble now.

So what the hell are we talking about? Oh, your dirty shirt. you were saying, you were gonna answer who should pay on a date?

So here's how I think about it. I think that- and should it reflect.

How you act later on? Or, you know, if you think, no, I wanna always be able to contribute, should it reflect that? Or should you let them have it because it's the first date and you just wanna let 'em have it?

I think that's perfectly valid to do either one, but should it reflect later? No. Might it reflect? Definitely. So I live in a world of what is, right, reality. And we can argue about how things should be a lot, but I think that I always love when somebody offered to pay when I was single. It meant a lot. It actually meant a lot. And for me, one of my core values is generosity. And so a lot of people go, yeah, I'm generous. I like that. And When we're talking on the podcast, I go, how would I know? If I were an anthropologist with my clipboard and I observed you for two weeks, how would I know you were generous? People get real quiet. I go, let me give you some suggestions. Would I know it by how much you tip? Would I know it by, did you offer to pay or did you even just pay? Would I know it by how much you donated? How would I know? And so I guess I would, encourage us all to reflect on what are our personal values and the offer goes a long way. It goes a long way.

I want to switch gears for a moment because I feel like this is a question that is a very common one, but it's one that you are uniquely placed to answer. The idea of a prenup is something that is, it's like a very taboo subject. a lot of relationships. And as we've already talked about, there's a lot more women these days that are interested in having a prenup than there used to be. And then of course you have a lot of guys who want to talk about a prenup, but you usually have one half of the couple for whom it's not something they would have ever brought up. One person is more interested in talking about it than the other, and it absolutely feels like the most unromantic thing you could do for a lot of people. Like, this feels like a. I'm already putting the kind of curse on the relationship by even talking about what do we do when it ends?

Yeah. In.

In the case of marriage, of course. How do you coach people who either aren't having that conversation at all or one of them wants to, but they're scared of offending their partner by bringing it up? How important is it really? And how is it something that both parties should be interested in, even if it disproportionately benefits one?

Okay, I'll just share my own experience. The biggest thing is knowing who should do a prenup and who should not. If you're coming to a marriage and you both have roughly the same amount of money, probably no reason to sign a prenup. If you have a business, one of you, you probably should consider a prenup. Okay, that's because what if you were to get married and then, God forbid, separate, if your partner owned 50% of that business or whatever it might be, and suddenly they want to sell off the business and you have employees who you're responsible to, it becomes a big mess. That's one. If you have a large amount of assets, stocks, cash, maybe you were an investment banker for the last 10 years. That would be a reason to consider a prenup. Why? Because that money is premarital. You made it before you got married. And when you get married, anything from then on typically is jointly accumulated. But if you were to separate, that premarital asset would remain yours. There's also Examples of if you were going to get an inheritance from your family, that's one. A lot of people kind of don't think about that, but you may want to say, hey, if I were to get an inheritance and we were to be separated, it kind of makes sense it would stay with me. That's from my mom and dad. And also debt. If you have large amount of student loan debt, in fact, a couple I spoke to yesterday, one has roughly 80k of debt or so, the other has 450k of debt. Prenup, talk about it. Because you can both jointly pay it off if you want to, but if you were to separate, you want to have a clear line of delineation. So I realized that when it came time for us to get serious, I had accumulated a lot of assets, and I have a business as well. And so I started talking to my friends, and this all happens behind closed doors. I wish it happened more openly. Because it doesn't happen openly, people have these very nefarious views on a prenup. They think somebody in a ski mask and a Richie Rich hat is driving around in a limo like, yeah, I'm gonna get my partner. I'm gonna get him. It's like, that's not how it works. Both partners have a lawyer. Both partners should be protected. One person should not be taken advantage of. That's not how prenup, that's how it works on TV. But in reality, Both partners really should be engaged if a prenup makes sense. So I started reading all the advice about how to talk about it. Man, this advice sucks. It's fucking awful.

It's like- what was the worst thing about it?

The worst was tell your partner that I don't really want a prenup, but my lawyer is insisting that I sign one. How disempowering is that? To walk into a relationship lying and saying, I don't actually want a prenup, but my mom and dad insist that I do it. Take some ownership. So when I spoke to my wife, I was really nervous. Like I had scripted it out. I had talked to a lot of friends, but I knew that this was important to me. And I also knew that it should be important to us because I plan for a lot of stuff in my life. I plan for our engagement, engagement ring, wedding, honeymoon. I plan for a lot. So does she now. and it makes sense that I would plan, we would plan for this huge financial decision. We have to remember, marriage is not just about love. Only in America in the last few decades is marriage only about love. But historically it's economic, it's financial, it's political. There's lots of reasons. And so marriage is also a financial arrangement. It's a it's a it's an agreement. And Again, because I'm not ashamed about money, I want to talk about it. So I went to her and I said, There's something else I want to talk about. You know, because of the business I started and because of a lot of luck and work, I've been able to accumulate a lot of assets. And you know me, you know I'm not going to go buy a Lamborghini, but it is important to me that we discuss a prenup. And I can talk to you and we can talk about what that looks like. But it's important to me because I would like to decide on what the financial rules look like. And I want to plan for the best. And I expect to be with you for the rest of my life. But I also want to plan for, God forbid, something bad happens. And we can plan for that so that we make decisions when we are both at best, not at our worst. And I was like, so I sat back, there's like sweat dripping down my face. I'm like, oh my God. And I have to say to my wife's credit, she was incredibly receptive and kind. When somebody brings up a prenup, the other person typically has never thought about it or expected it. And that was the case for her. And she reacted as Absolutely masterfully. And she just said, wow, that's not something that I've thought about, but I would definitely be willing to look into it and learn more. And that was all I needed. And that was all we needed to start that conversation.

So that's, that's how I think that's really powerful. And the, when people go into situations like this, it almost feels like there's a, a separation of just, oh, it's each for their own. And the sense of teamwork is kind of out the window. And when we're talking about planning for a financial future, one of the questions we got was how, how does it work when you get into a relationship with, like, a joint account? And should you each put money into it? And it's funny. I'm, you know, at the point in my life where I'm, for the first time ever, I have a joint account.

Yeah.

I'd never had a joint account before, you know, my. My relationship now. And there's something very beautiful about it because it's exciting. The idea that you're both putting money into this place.

You're a team.

Exactly. And I feel like I'm on the very beginning of that journey, and it's like, oh, it's all new to me. There will be people. who are hearing this for whom, no doubt, it's like they've been doing it for years and they're old hat at it. But, you know, for me, it marked something really lovely. It marked the beginning of, oh, you're doing something together and you're both contributing to it. Yeah. I could you speak to the kind of nuances of that, like how that works for people that have decided they want to go, you know, they want to have a future get together, they want to spend their lives together. But they've never really thought about how that works. And they thought it was kind of almost all or nothing. It's either it's all ours, or... Or it's separate. Or it's separate, and they don't realize that there's actually a lot of room in the middle for two people to contribute to the same place, but to different degrees. Could you just speak to that?

Let me give you an overview, a very tactical answer on how I would recommend setting up the accounts. And then we'll talk about some of the nuances. the details and the emotional nuances. So if I were to get a couple in front of me who say, Ramit, what should I do? Just tell me what to do. I would say one joint checking account. If both of you are earning, both of your paychecks go into there proportionally. So if one person makes double, they contribute double to the joint account. From that joint account, you pay your joint expenses, rent or a mortgage, groceries, transportation, holiday travel, all of the things that you do jointly, whether it's every month or once a year, all of that. But there's a couple of wrinkles. You should each give yourself some percentage for individual, no questions asked money that you can both spend. So if one of you prefers to go to the racetrack and race cars once a month, Fantastic. The other one prefers to get a massage twice a month. Fantastic. That's your money, no questions asked. That is almost like a release valve. Each partner knows that they have some money they don't need to answer to anybody for. And within the joint amount, you want to make sure that you are paying your fixed costs.

And that the point that you don't have to justify, that's just, that's free. from the joint account, right? It's like what you can spend from that without no questions asked.

Correct. And you can either have it come from the joint account or you can just have that sent directly from the paycheck. It's totally up to you. Oh, I see. Got it. Now, let's talk about the nuts and bolts of day-to-day management because I think this is where people get way too in the weeds. Let me tell you my idea of hell. Two things. Number one, wearing a wrinkled shirt. Number two, having to spend the next 45 years looking at the price of asparagus. Oh, did you spend too much on asparagus? Why'd you do that? It's like, just end it. I don't wanna live on this planet if I have to track asparagus. So people really need to track four numbers and that's it. Number one, your fixed costs. That would be rent, car, anything that is fixed that you, like insurance, debt payoff, the thing that is, always you're paying every single month. That should be 50 to 60% of your take home pay. Okay, next would be savings. That would be money you don't need anytime. It's basically money for 1 to 5 years from now. Could be an emergency fund, could be a trip to Thailand, could be saving up for a new car or a down payment. That should be roughly 5 to 10% of your take home pay after tax. Investments, roughly 10%. That's money that that's where your real wealth is created. Okay. Investments. And where do you invest? We can talk about that in a second. And finally, my favorite one, guilt free spending. This is money that the two of you are going out to a nice restaurant. You're going to take a trip, whatever you want that is guilt free for you. You're going to hire somebody around the house to help 20 to 35% of your take home pay. If you track those four numbers, when you go out to a restaurant and you decide to order an extra glass of wine, it's irrelevant because your fixed costs are covered, you're saving your money, you're investing for the long term, and you've planned for everything. You don't need to track asparagus. Everything is handled by the app.

It's already accounted for.

Yes.

And what were the percentages, just because I'm a stickler for those details, like what went in general, what do you suggest those percentages should be in your after-tax income.

Fixed cost should be 50 to 60% savings, 5 to 10% investments, 5 to 10% or more, and guilt-free spending 20 to 35%. Now, let me just highlight a couple of things. Number one, I have this all in this conscious spending plan that I created. We can link to it or something.

Yeah, we'll link to that.

Okay. And the second thing is the place most people get into trouble. This blows my mind. They come to me, they've been fighting for 25 years about Target. I go, who gives a shit about Target? It's $50. You guys are drowning because of how much you're spending on cars. The biggest place people get into trouble is their fixed costs. It is, first, their housing. And I get it, housing is expensive. But there are some numbers we can share. Like your housing should typically be less than 28% of your gross income. if it's way more than that, you're screwed. And the second place they get in trouble is their cars. I talk to all these guys. They're almost always guys. They, you know, they make $75,000 a year. They drive an $85,000 truck. I'm like, what the are you do? And they're driving it on flat concrete to go one mile. They go, they go over me. They're so stupid. Of course I need a truck. I go, why? They go to pull my trailer. I go, I'm gonna kill you. That truck, when you factor in all the Phantom costs, is not eighty thousand dollars. It's like a hundred and five thousand dollars. Not to mention the additional gas, blah, blah, blah. It drives me crazy because my car, you know, you look at me, you could tell the kind of car I had. Honda Accord, four-door very sensible, great car. That thing, my car payment was 350 a month. Very reasonable. Fine. But when I factored in all my expenses, it was over one thousand dollars per Wow. So just imagine how much a house costs. The Phantom costs on that are bonkers or even a car where your car payment is like 600 bucks a month. So people come to me, they go, why are we fighting over how much I spend at the grocery store? Why? And they think it's about the groceries. It's almost never about the groceries. I look at their conscious spending plan and you can zoom right in because there are instant ratios like, People look at the spreadsheet, they see numbers. I see a life. I see why the fights are happening. And I also see how with a couple of changes, they could be multimillionaires. So these are the types of conversations where in order to be confident with money together, you have to be competent. And that's what this allows you to do.

I love that. And I love it only highlights going into that level of detail. For some people, maybe it's not very interesting, but For me, if you and your partner don't have that kind of detail or you're not thinking about it in those ways, then there are gonna be arguments that happen that become bigger than they need to be because you avoided the detail.

Yes, the details and just setting up the structure right.

Yes.

You know, it's like, it's funny when it comes to money, I often hear one partner will say, well, my partner is the one who manages the money. I don't do that. And I go, uh-. Money is not like mowing a lawn where you just pay somebody or getting your oil changed in your car. Money affects everything. So you are a partner. It's more like parenting than emptying the dishwasher where one partner can do it. And so, almost always one partner's a little bit savvier with money. That's fine, but both partners have to be a team player. So in my relationship, it would've been super easy for me to just be like, babe, I'll be the money guy. I was like, nope. And it was hard. It was hard. But I insisted that we both get on the same page and it's taken years, but it's been, now it's awesome.

And I have to say that idea of being a partnership in that and educating yourself is profoundly important because I've seen so many times in life where it goes, it's all very well designating someone as ultimately like the money parent in the relationship.

Totally.

Until it goes wrong.

Yeah, you do not want that parental dynamic.

Well, then you're then if if something happens in the relationship or if all of a sudden you find yourself on your own.

Yes.

You know, that's a really dark and scary place to be. And in a lot of relationships, that dynamic becomes a wonderful weapon of control for someone who wants to be controlling, who wants to make life difficult for you, who wants to manipulate you, who wants to blind you to things that are going on. Because if you're not educated and you're not a partner in that process, all sorts of things can be going on that you don't know about.

I hear it all the time. All the time. We got divorced and I discovered that he had taken out $100,000 of loans and I had no idea. And I don't ever want that to happen. So, you know, we all, we fall in love, we get married, we always think like, this is forever. And I love that optimism. I love it. I I'm actually the last guy to come on and be like, here are the 50 things to worry about. No, I actually think I'd rather spend more time talking about a rich life. To me, a rich life is also being partnered and engaged on the three or four really important to do things in life. And that would be, you know, physical intimacy, maybe travel, if that's one of your things, certainly parenting and money. And so it only makes sense for me, the way I set it up and I recommend for couples, one hour a month, you have a rich life review. You get together, you always started off with a compliment. Here's one thing I really appreciate about you, you know, you always arrange our travel, you pick the best flights. It just makes me feel comfortable that I know you've got that handle and your partner starts says something nice. What a beautiful way to start talking about money, you know, and rather than like, why'd you buy that? It's just like, let's start with the positive. You do a quick review of your numbers. You really only need to focus on two or three numbers every month. Those would be variable numbers. Like, did we spend too much eating out according to our conscious spending plan? How are we doing on travel? Whatever your variable number, but like, you don't need to check your rent every month. It's the same. And if you made more money, like if one of you got a raise, wow, awesome, congratulations. High five. I make it very theatrical because money should be theatrical and fun. And what are we gonna do with the money? Gosh, let's talk about it. This is amazing. That kind of thing. We always check in on our long-term goals. So, you know, our bucket list, do we have money going towards it? Do we have any open questions? we have a Google Doc, we'll just add stuff to it throughout the month, and then we can bucket it. So you don't have to always be like nervous about money, you know, once a month we're gonna have a chance to talk about it. And you end with, I love you. It's a beautiful way to talk about money. And if you can do that, that is a very promising sign that the two of you can be aligned on money. You're managing, you're starting with positivity, you're managing the most important numbers to me. Out of all that, the compliment matters most and the investment rate matters the most. Those are the two things I really care about because that's where we connect and that's where wealth is created. The rest of it, I can be a little loosey goosey on, and that's a simple, beautiful way of managing money together.

It's great, man. I love it. And I love that to me and I we'll go for some questions as well, because then our audience sent in a ton of really good questions. But to me, this whole conversation is about bringing these things into the light, having real conversations, being able to actually plan a future. And by the way, someone who's not willing to have these conversations with you is there's either an immaturity to it, there's a, there can be a darkness to it because it's like, well, hang on, why are you unwilling to have these kinds of conversations? And it also can be a sign that they're actually not interested in building a future with you. And so the inability to have these conversations, I would argue, can in itself be a major red flag.

I think the red flag. I don't mind if two partners have differing or even vastly different views on certain I don't mind it. That's normal. You and your partner do not have to agree on everything, but do have to agree on the few important values. Should we be able to communicate about anything? In the case of my wife and me, I'm in self-development. That's my field. So it was really important to me that she was also interested in self-development. Because at one point or another, we're going to need to improve ourselves and us together. And that decision right there, the focusing on self-development as a value has been one of the best things that I ever interpreted our relationship through. So for you, it might be communication, it might be a sense of adventure, whatever it might be. But money has to fall onto one of those things. I remember a couple she wanted to renovate the bathroom. And that's what they came to me with. Again, it's always a specific thing. And I started talking and he was a Canadian guy, raised middle or lower middle class, just kind of gruff dude. Never wanted to, didn't want to talk about, we don't talk about money. I said, okay, I'm gonna crack this guy. I know how to talk to everybody. And I asked him, you know, what's your rich life? He goes, They're like 30 years old. He goes, you know, save a little bit, put the kids through college and then retire. I go, what the fuck? 30? You just skipped 30 years. What kind of boring ass life is that? And he didn't even crack a smile. I'm like, oh, shh, I gotta pull out some other techniques on this guy. You know, I get him going and I could tell the guy, the guy was pretty built. I go, you, like to lift? He goes, yeah. I go, what if we could, you know, get some cool lifting stuff? trainer. He goes, not interested. I go, okay, check that off the box. He likes football. I looked at his numbers. They. They could accumulate, like, a million dollars, a lot more over time. I go, what would it feel like if you could actually go to the Super Bowl and watch right from the stands? He goes, this is the affect he had. He goes, that would be amazing. I go, Okay, well, do you know you could actually do that? He goes, I don't believe it. I could show you how. I see the numbers right here. I could show you exactly how. And he goes, well, you know, I just don't believe it. He had an inability to talk about money. And watching him and his wife was really tough. It was tough to watch. And it's tough to listen to on that episode because she's really crying out for some engagement. She just wants him to talk. Even if he disagrees with what he wants to spend them, at least talk. I find that if couples are willing to open up and share, then we can almost always find some sort of common ground. But in cases where they're just not willing to talk, even from fourth, fifth, sixth date about money, to me, that would be really concerning.

All right, so let's do some questions we've had. Havner, who says, what's a respectful way to find out a date's salary and spending habits and when to ask?

Just ask them for their income statement. What's the problem? What? That's not, okay, listen, sometimes people come with questions, I'm like, that's not a good question. Let me tell you a better question.

Okay, go for it.

What is somebody really saying when they ask, What is this date's salary? I think what they're really asking is, do we have the potential for a shared lifestyle? And I actually have no problem with that question. This is your lifestyle. If one person says, I want to live on a farm, and the other person says, I want to live in a penthouse in Manhattan, that's actually quite a big difference, potentially insurmountable. It's not like, I prefer sushi and, I like sashimi. That's not the same. So the way that I would really get to that, do we have a similar vision of a lifestyle? Would be asking them questions like, what's your rich life? Like, if you could do anything, where would it be? And if their answer is, you know, I just want to sit and wait until I'm 60 and retire and that's it. That's all they've given thought to. And okay, fine. Some people don't think about this proactively. I go, well, what else? What about travel? and they go, Not interested. Okay, that's quite revealing. I don't think you need the salary for that. But as you get deeper into the curiosity and you're talking about like, oh, would we have kids? What do you think? Yeah, you know, I'd love to have two or three kids. Oh, cool. And like, I grew up, I went to public school until college. Like, how would you think about that? What about all these kids? They like to go to camp. That's really interesting. Well, you know, I don't think kids should have to, should go to private school. Okay, interesting. You know, there's lots of topics we can talk about like that, but I don't think asking somebody for their salary is appropriate, nor do I really think it's the question that you really want the answer to.

Very good. We have here, how to prevent myself from getting into a relationship with a guy who can't handle money. I suppose that goes into the communication, right? If you're having communication about money, once you know you like each other and are having dates and are getting further down the line, and you realize any time the subject even comes up, there's this huge barrier and you can't get anywhere.

Yeah, that's a problem. I mean, you know that journal I created? There it is on the bookshelf. Just do that together. and that is the two of you going through these prompts, like, what is your rich life? And what do you see with our family? What, who do you admire with money? What would you spend less on? And then the two of you talk about it. So I did an exercise with my wife, the bucket list exercise. A lot of people think, oh, it's, what do I do before I die? Ours was a little different. What do we want to do in the next 10 years that would make it a rich and meaningful life? And so she I took her.

I love this exercise.

Yeah, she took a piece of paper, filled out her stuff. I said, Pick stuff that's just for you and some stuff for us. I did the same. So we get together after a few minutes.

It's kind of fun, you know, you're just dreaming. Yeah, I want to do it, 'cause I remember I came to your event in LA for the journal release, and me and Audrey were sat next to each other watching, and you mentioned this, and we were both like, this actually sounds really fun.

Well, we can do this. We can all do it together. It would be a blast. Let's do that. So we come back and this is really the crux of the exercise. So we each go back and forth and one partner will go, oh, I want to learn Spanish in the next 10 years. I want to be fluent. And the other partner has got to be curious. Really? Oh my God, would you do that here or would you go to Mexico City? Okay, the other person goes, bungee jumping. Oh, well, okay, you're on your own for that one. I'll be waiting at the bottom with a champagne, but I'm not getting up there. And you're just having fun, you're flirting, you're really making it joyful. We went through them. Some of them were individual, like one of mine is I want to write a book at a hotel. That's just the thing that I love. I love hotels and I love that.

I love that.

'Cause it's coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so she had her own individual. And then what we did was we said, let's pick one or two things that are for us. Let's pick a big thing. So ours was 10-year wedding anniversary. Big. We're gonna do it abroad. We know who we wanna bring. It's gonna be magnificent. And I said, let's each go away for just two minutes and estimate how much it'll cost and we'll come back. See, now we're going from just dreaming, which I love, but I'm not a freaking LA life coach with one of those weird hats. I wanna put, I wanna take it to the numbers, okay? How are we gonna pay for this? Let's actually make this a reality. So we come back, she picked a number, in my opinion, way too low. I'm not trying to cheap out on this 10 year wedding anniversary. I'm like, let's ball out. So my number was many multiples of her, and my rule is simple. If we got two numbers, let's go with the higher one. Okay? It's a 10 year dream. We can dream big, plus our earnings are probably gonna go up and we can invest, blah, blah, blah. We picked a big number. She was kind of uncomfortable. I go, Trust me on this. We took that number, we divided by the number of months until that date, and we said, okay, this is how much we need to put aside. Can we do it? And suddenly in your monthly rich life review, you now have a purpose for one of your categories. And this is the thing you two chose. It's amazing, it's big, it's part of your rich life. That gets you motivated and excited when it comes to your money.

I love that. All right, so the 10-year plan of what are the things we'd be most excited to do with our money in the next 10 years, that's great. Let's see here. Tala says, and I only copied this one out because I thought there was something in the way she said it, but she said, how should a woman approach talking about having way with four As more money than most men? I'm curious as to, to what you think about this, because I, for me, the emphasis on her question and the way she asks it is indicative of a way she may be coming across.

I agree. Let's just take me. What if I said, how do I communicate with women that I have way more money? It's not, it doesn't sound good, and it's not a good frame.

There's a tone.

Yeah.

You know, you could have, there could have been a phrasing of that question of, you know, how should a woman approach, you know, coming to the relationship in a different financial position for, or in a, you know, place of more wealth than the guy she's dating. But that tone plays into so much of this.

It's funny, yeah, in one line you can really read a lot. I think that, in my opinion, and I'm the, Guy who's been writing about money for 20 years. I don't really like to lead with money. I don't like it. I don't, you never see me with a picture of me holding up cash. It's just not my style. What would I rather lead with? And this would be the question I would ask the questioner. What are your values? If you want to lead with generosity and you say, you know, I'm planning to take this trip to Spain and I would love it if I could treat you for you to join me, my treat. First of all, that's very generous. And second of all, it sort of speaks that you got money. I think we can all infer that. I don't find that it's useful, men or women, to lead with how much money you have. It's not received well. And really, I think a lot of times it's simply a way for us to tell people what we're proud of. But you can tell them in a in a different way. In fact, I'd rather you just show them in a way that's meaningful to them.

It was interesting. There was a question that came up. Let me see if I can find it. How do you ask the guy you're dating to not talk about money so much?

That's a good question.

Over the top.

Whoa.

So that's like a good example of someone who's leading with money all the time.

And that is a great example of the recipient experiences. Sometimes I think in a way when you have money, that it's almost like thinking about how to give a gift. Like what if I went to my wife and I'm like, I'm gonna give her this gift because it's super cool. It's this cool electronic thing. But I just forget the point of a gift is not what I think is cool. The point of a gift is to meet the recipient with what they want. I want to give my wife something she loves, not that I think she should love. And with money, it's frankly distasteful to sit around and just talk about how much money you have. I also think it's distasteful. I've spoken to many people on my podcast who are multimillionaires and constantly agonizing over how little to spend. They're cheap. And I tell them that. I'm like, You're cheap. And I like it because I always play it out. I go, Do you think you're cheap? And they always say the same thing. No, I'm not cheap. I'm... Insert word. I'm selective. I go, have you ever had a friend not invite you out because you're cheap? They go, Yes. Have you ever agonized over the price of strawberries? Rich people are obsessed with saving money on strawberries. Yes. They go, How do you know that? And I just list them off and I go, you're cheap. And they're like, what? Let me tell you this. This one blew my mind. There's a lady. Oh, my God. This is one of my favorite episodes. She's a multi-millionaire her and her husband, and they're great. I love them. He said, I have a trip in New York. I want you to come with me. Let's have a time in New York. She goes, okay. But the hotel, the Moxie Hotel in the East Village, you know it, very modestly priced. It's too expensive. He goes, what? This is a work trip. She goes, it's 297 a night. I think we should go to Chelsea, stay at a cheaper hotel, and then move to the Moxie the next day. I go, all right, fine. I go, how much is your net worth? It's like five or 10 million. It's some crazy number. They have millions of dollars. So then I go, what'd you do while you were in New York? She goes, we went to Broadway, we went to Times Square, and we stood in line for the discounted tickets. You know where all the tourists stand? And when I heard this, I was like, You're a multimillionaire standing in that line. So this was my moment to shine. 'Cause if it's so fascinating. If an Indian person knows anything, it's guilt trips. I'm like, I am fluent at guilt trips, but usually I'm the recipient of them. Today I get to weaponize it. So I go, listen, I forget her name. I go, listen, Beth, I just want you to imagine you waited in line for two hours in this fucking discounted ticket line, even though you're a multimillionaire, fine. But I think you didn't notice that family behind you. They had saved up for the last six years to come to New York, and they were hoping to get those last tickets to the Lion King. But you, multimillionaire Beth, took the last tickets and they got to the line and they couldn't afford it. How do you feel now, Beth? And she's almost crying, and I'm like, Gotcha. All those 40 years of guilt trips turned into a pure, beautiful weapon. The point is, when you make a lot of money, you cannot afford to do certain things that you used to be able to do. And it's very distasteful to talk about how you saved $5 when you have $8 million in the bank.

It's so fascinating. I heard a story recently of a guy worth hundreds of millions of dollars who, when he was doing a work trip and the whole team was staying at the Four Seasons, he would not have it for himself.

I heard this.

He went somewhere else.

And it's lauded because in America, we love wealthy people who pretend they are poor. Warren Buffett, he's a man of the people. He eats McDonald's every day. Let's forget about the fact that he has a private jet. Bill Gates. Oh, he's so relatable. He wears Dockers. Bill Gates' house is like 89,000 square feet. We love wealthy people who pretend to be poor. And I actually think, first of all, it's truly absurd. And celebrities know this. They cannot talk about how much they actually spend because the world hates that. It hates it. Talk about leading with money. But I don't think there's virtue in living a smaller life than you have to. I'm speaking now to not celebrities, but ordinary people who still feel proud that they save $5 when they have accumulated tons and tons of money. And I said, there's no virtue in that. You turn the page, your worry free number, the number where you stop worrying about stuff like a pack of gum. Your number should be higher now that you have accumulated a lot. And And part of that is to be able to be more generous. If this lady had stayed at the Moxie and tipped the doorman and tipped the bartender, that money would have flowed. In my opinion, that is her obligation.

M says, Boyfriend likes to split the bill paying for dinners, but orders way more drinks.

What do I do? Have the conversation with him and say, Hey, you know what? I love going out to dinner with you. I think it's cool that we split it, but I just noticed sometimes when we're going out, you order three or four more drinks. Doesn't matter to me once in a while, but it's becoming a little difficult for me to afford it. Is it cool if we set up a little guideline going forward? A lot of people would be very receptive to that.

There's one person that said that they used to pay for everything because that guy didn't have a job. And now he got a job and she still pays for everything.

Yeah, common. Time to recalibrate. really hard to recalibrate in a relationship. Because once you start a pattern, that pattern creates grooves. But it's okay. It might be an uncomfortable conversation, but you say, you know what? I just, there's something that I've been thinking about a lot. I really want to talk about it and get your thoughts on it. In any relationship, there's going to be times where one of us needs to help the other. That's normal. I think that's going to go on for the rest of our lives. I'm excited to be a partner. I know for the last few months, you haven't had a job. I was thrilled to be able to pay and I'm glad to be able to do it. Now that you've got a job, I'd really love to talk about recalibrating what it looks like when we go out for dinner. I think it's a great opportunity.

I love it.

You know the thing that you and I both appreciate about each other is the way to say these things. There's really an art and a science. I love listening to you.

It's everything.

Yeah.

Because it's you, you know, the That's why when people say over the years, when people, you know, a criticism sometimes of the work that I've done is, just be yourself. And I always wanna go, yeah, there's such a thing as skill.

Totally.

Such a thing as, there's a way to say something that will actually get you a better result.

Yes.

And what you're talking about, there's nothing devious about it. It's literally a loving way to have a conversation. that will get you a much better result than yelling at them because they ordered another beer and you're like, oh, here we go again.

That's what I really appreciate about your work too. And I've told you that my whole team really admires you, including the who Should Pay First, masterclass in how to answer that question. It's one thing to say, oh, just have a conversation. But I know when I'm in the throes of something really difficult, like how to talk about a prenup. I needed help and I went online and I looked and there was nothing. And I wish there had been someone out there saying like, this is what I did. Here's what to look out for. Here's how you should say it and here's how you should never say it. It would have meant everything to me. So I want to make sure your listeners understand how valuable it is that you actually articulate how to say it because we can learn from that. We can adapt it to our own style. You know, I don't talk exactly like you, but gosh, it really feels good to hear someone model it for me.

Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. Okay, last few questions. So we have this one's from a guy who says, if a man is on a dinner date, how do you interpret it if she insists on paying half? Is she not keen on you?

I think it's great. Maybe it's just because I interpret everything to benefit me. I'm like, that's awesome. I think she's fantastic. I think it's very assertive that she would say, I insist on paying half. Personally, I find that very attractive. It speaks to generosity. It speaks to being confident. It speaks to having a mastery of her numbers, knowing that she can afford this dinner. To me, I find it very appealing. What do you think?

I think that if you just give it a few dice, you'll know if she's not keen on you. 'Cause she won't ask you on another. She won't say yes to the next date. There you go. So you don't really need to overanalyse it at the meal stage. Go home, see how it goes. And I agree with you. It could be literally a sign of the fact that she's a team player.

Yeah.

That her values are in the right place. Would you rather she didn't even reach.

For her wallet and didn't say thank you when you paid? Totally. I actually think it's such an easy way to set yourself apart when dating to be ultra generous.

I agree.

It is such an easy way. And what does it cost? 20 bucks. You stand out from everybody else. I agree. It is one of the easiest things you could possibly do.

This is interesting. Lexi says, if your boyfriend paid for his ex's expenses when they traveled together, but he doesn't do it for you.

Doesn't feel good. I mean, that's a conversation, a difficult one, where you have to admit, Hey, I don't want to compare myself to a past relationship, but it does make me wonder why you paid for your ex but not me. And maybe there's an innocent answer. Maybe financial circumstances have changed. If so, I'd love to get it out on the table. But right now I know that there's this thing that's just bothering me and I want to find a way to feel better about it.

And I think a huge part of that is is understanding where that's coming from. Because you might learn something interesting like, I could imagine a world where he says, well, I used to do that because to be honest with you, I was a lot more insecure. And I felt like I had to, because that was my value. And I had to do that to get someone to like me. And with you, I feel safe. And I don't feel like I need to do that for you to like me. That being said, I want to make sure that I'm being generous towards you and so on. And there's still maybe a recalibration that happens, but I could see a world where you getting to the bottom of it could provide a good answer or a bad answer. But you need to get to the bottom of why that shift has happened for him.

I agree. That's a very good answer. I don't think 99.9% of people are skilled enough to say what you said. But I think that's another reason why it's very helpful for people to hear your... And now, maybe your answer is not right for them, but to see that, like, I think for most people that would have never occurred to them to say what you said.

I think it's useful to know, is he doing this because he likes me less than his ex?

Yes.

Or is he doing this because something about his relationship with this has shifted?

Yes.

So I had a client recently who was seeing a guy, and she was very serious about him. He claimed to be very serious about her, but he hadn't essentially left his ex for financial reasons.

Okay.

In other words, he was still in a marriage, hadn't finalized a divorce, and his excuse to her was that, well, my finances are bound up with her, and if I leave, it's going to ruined me. And that was it. Now, I, I believe that that's just some, a giant excuse. But as people get older in life and they have baggage from past relationships and there's been, you know, messy divorces, how, how do you see the kind of, if women are out there and they're dating guys and a guy is still sort of using finances as an to be wrapped up with their ex. How justified is it to expect your partner to have had a proper financial divorce from their ex in order to be with them?

I spoke to two lawyers. He was in his maybe late 50s, and she was in her 40s, and he had gone through a divorce acrimoniously. and he owed his ex-wife alimony and quite a considerable amount. In their case, it was out on the table that he owed her a lot of money, and that was causing its own financial problems. But at the very least, he was as separated as he could possibly be from her. I think those are two separate issues. Should A partner looking to get into a new relationship be as separated as possible? Yes. But you know, sometimes there are things that are inextricably tied together, children, property, et cetera. But at least to know these are the rules, we've written them down, we're not negotiating anymore, it's done. It might take the next 30 years to pay it, but that's what it is. Now, the second thing is how much? If you're getting into a relationship where your partner is writing a $20,000 every single month check. You want to know that. You need to know that because that's going to affect your finances together. But I think those two are separate issues and I would think about them accordingly.

I think that's a great answer. And what you said is really important. Are they separate in all of the important ways so that this is the only residual thing? And we know in black and white what that means.

Black and white.

And you really answered the part of the question you didn't know about, which is that when she came to me, this guy was still kind of visiting his ex and still not telling her about the new person because he didn't wanna upset the apple cart and create a financial mess for himself by essentially pissing her off about his new circumstances. There's nothing about that that suggests that the only residual connection is a financial one.

Totally. It's deeply intertwined. It's emotional. It's a bad- Right.

So, I think that that's an interesting way to sum up that answer is if everything is separate but the financial obligation, then it can make sense to engage with someone like that. This has been amazing, man. I've really, really enjoyed this. And I know we've come so much ground and people will have, I feel like whether someone is first dating or they're deep into a relationship or they're dating someone that is coming out of a long-term relationship and has some financial stuff going on, we've just covered so many different chapters that someone could be in. And I love that you get into the detail of it. You know, you're so educated in what you do, and you've spent so long doing it now that It's just, it's fun to watch you, 'cause I feel like I'm coming into this stuff.

Yeah.

You know, learning from you and new to it. And you and I have conversations offline where I come to you for advice in these areas and I talk to you about money and I feel uneducated listening. I don't know if I would survive three dates with you. But, you know, it's so nice to be around someone who just truly understands their craft and you're just such a pro at it. So thanks for being here.

Thank you, man. It's a pleasure. It's an inspiration. And you know, I love, love, love talking about this, especially with your community. I mean, you built an amazing community. Your answers, the depth you go into, I think we both admire each other as craftspeople.

100%.

And we're constantly studying to be better at what we do.

Where should people go? I feel like everyone needs to go and listen to the podcast.

I think that if they are listening to this or watching this, Absolutely go to the podcast. That podcast, we're gonna be having video podcast now where you can actually see the couples, which is, oh my God, it's amazing to see their facial reactions. You can follow my newsletter, iwt.com, and I'm on social media. I'm on Instagram and TikTok. So follow me at any of those places.

Amazing. And do go listen to those episodes because it's so, when do you ever get to be a fly on the wall? of a conversation that two people, a couple, are having about their finances and airing the kinds of things that people don't speak out loud. And you're probing in those crucial ways. It's, there's no other podcast out there like it. So go check it out. I will teach you to be rich. The podcast. And Rameet, let's do it again soon.

Love to.