How To Know If They Have Relationship Potential In Early Dating (Feat. Dr. Morgan Cutlip)

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You can take a horrible on screen narcissist and go back yes, and all of a sudden you find yourself identifying with someone who's doing monstrous things in the present.

You feel connected to that completely.

Today's guest is relationship expert Dr. Morgan Cutlips, author of A Better Share. We talk about dating with an anxious attachment style, how to deal with avoidance in relationships, what to do when your partner isn't a good communicator or when their relationship style is different from ours in painful ways, what to do when your partner accuses you of needing too much and how to distinguish trauma based anxiety from genuine gut feelings. She gives some really practical frameworks that I found incredibly fresh and immediately useful, so I think you are really going to enjoy this one. A quick note before we start, I am bringing back a hugely popular free event I do every couple of years called the 30 Day Confidence Challenge. It is really unique in that I give you five missions to do over 30 days and we all do them together and and each one of them is specifically designed to help you access your most confident state of mind and build massive momentum in your year. I believe that confidence is a superpower in life and the 30 day challenge that we're going to do together begs a simple question. Who are you and what are you capable of when you don't have your foot on the brakes? The challenge begins with a kickoff call on July 15th where I will be giving you the five missions that we're going to be doing together in 30 days that follow, you can register for free. The whole challenge is free to join us@mhchallenge.com and now I give you Dr. Morgan Cutlet. Dr. Morgan Cutlip. Hello.

Hi. It's great to be here.

It's lovely to be with you. I feel like this has been on the cards for a long time.

Oh, I appreciate that. This is just. This feels like a bucket list item for me. So it's great. It's great to be here.

I've known of you for a long time. We had a conversation a while, like years ago now. We did a live.

Yes.

Yeah. And that was a really great live. I really enjoyed it. I think to this day we still use one of the clips from that really out there. So it's. It's really good to be with you. I'm excited to talk about your new book, A Better Share, which is off to my left there. And I guess I want to start. How long have you been married for?

So this summer it will be 17 years.

I am curious. I've been married two years now. Somewhere around that. I'm. I'm only a month or two off.

Yes.

What would be your advice to me and Audrey at our stage of marriage? As someone who has learned all of these lessons and so many of you, I'm sure you've put in the book, but what would you say to us is important to know or to learn in this stage of marriage as you.

Are embarking on parenthood?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. We're like four or five months out.

Yes. I. This one is really hard because you two, your work, your whole life is about relationships. So I'm sure you're pretty far ahead of a lot of couples. But parenthood has a way of really shaking up a relationship that is otherwise pretty good. I tell the story in my book of how it shook up our relationship. My husband and I have been married 17 years, but we met when I was 14 and he was 16. There's a whole on and off story there. But known each other a long time, had a great relationship, and becoming a mother changed me in such a massive way that I did not see coming. And I sort of stepped in and took everything on. I took on all the care, I took on all the night stuff. I took on all the things. And my husband didn't really jump in enough. And I remember it was at that sort of beginning kind of pattern we set up that I felt like we started drifting apart. I was shocked at how I could quickly resent a man that I really Never felt that way about previously. And so you guys are probably way ahead. You probably have a lot of big discussions around these things. But. But I would have a plan for regularly touching base to talk about the status of how each of you are doing. She's gonna go through some big changes. She's gonna just experience parts of herself that she didn't even really know existed. And you're gonna experience her in new ways. And so have a plan before you get into that stage of your relationship where it's like, how are we going to come together? How are we gonna talk about these things? How are we gonna check in on each other and how we're gonna support each other in the. I think another thing is the ways that I needed to be loved changed after kids. And so be prepared. It's so normal to need to be loved in different ways or to need more of something you needed previously. And so make sure there's discussions around those things.

What changed, if you don't mind sharing, what changed for you in terms of the way that you needed to be loved?

So I've always been somebody who needed words. And my husband and I, it was almost like a ten year argument between us because I would say, I just need you to show me and tell me that you love me and you appreciate me. And he'd be like, yeah, words of affirmation. So he'd say something generic. You're a good mom, you're good, this. And I'd say, oh, that really isn't the thing that I'm looking for. And so then that's. I think that's how little things can become big things in relationships.

What were you looking for?

I was looking for something that revealed that he really knew me and appreciated me on a deep level. Like I was visible and valuable to him. Like he saw me and appreciated who I was and how I contributed to our family. So I always needed that. When I look back at our. We dated in high school, I look back at our relationship. I have a box of cards that he made for me on his computer. They're hilarious. And he. I remember because I'd say, I need like a card from you, but I've always needed words. So after our daughter was born, I just needed more of that.

So in his case, was it that he was kind of strong at that in the beginning and then it waned, or was it that he was sort of always that way? And you know, because. Because there's a difference, right?

There's.

So there's definitely couples where people End up with someone that they go, this has just always been a problem for us. I've always having to drag words out of them. And there are other people who have a different kind of pain of. I used to feel this from them and now I don't. Did it fall more into the latter category?

No, I think it was more. And he's just not a man who has a lot of words. And that's why I needed these cards he made on his printer, you know, on his computer, many, many years ago.

So those were more prompted by you?

Yes.

Okay.

And it, like, it did enough for me back then, but throughout our relationship, I needed more of that from him. And then especially. Especially after becoming a mom, I really needed it. Because in many ways, as I mentioned before we started recording, he travels every week. And so in many ways, you know, I was doing a lot of the heavy lifting with our daughter, and so he couldn't necessarily jump in and physically do things to help me out. So I needed what I couldn't get in deeds I needed in words. And I do think that, you know, not to pay paint with a broad brush, but there's a lot of men who are like that. They're really good at working in the relationship and not working on the relationship.

I think I probably. I wish Audrey was here right now. She would very firmly give an answer here. I think I probably fall in a little bit into that category.

Yeah.

Audrey really loves words.

Oh, I have a formula, but keep going.

No, no, no, I want to hear the formula. I. Because I. Because where this is all leading for me is what.

How.

How do you work with people when they are trying to, you know, get someone to love in a way that's not natural for them to love without feeling like they're constantly trying to change them into someone they're not in ways that just aren't productive or don't work?

I mean, it. Part of it is a belief. It's a belief that we are supposed to sort of love our partner in the way that they need to be loved. We kind of have to embody that belief. And in our relationships, you know, it's not about what's most comfortable to us. It's about how do we care for them in the ways they need to be cared for. So I know my own relationship. That was an ongoing discussion. You know, these are the things I do for you that are out of my comfort zone or that you need. Imagine if those went away, what would that feel like? But not a threat, but just sort of like, this is, you gotta, like, get on the same page around some of these things. But in my personal relationship, I, I developed a formula for my husb. He's an amazing man. He loves me deeply, and he wants to get it right. And I think there are a lot of people like that, a lot of men who are like that, where it's like, I don't know, just tell me what to do, you know, I want to get this right. I want to care for you in the ways that you want. So the formula, I call the ultimate compliment formula, and it's observation, and it's either what you are doing. So, like, if something they see you doing or a personal quality about you, plus how it makes your life better. It's, it's such an unnatural way of speaking to somebody. But if both people in a relationship did this every day, it would change your relationship.

So could, what would be like what? Could you give us an example?

Yes. I always think of examples that are around stuff with kids, so. But would be something like, I notice how much planning you put into the trip, that my husband planned the trip, how much planning you put into the trip. And I see how thoughtful you are, how much you worried about our comfort and us having a good time. And I want you to know how much I appreciate that and how it was so great not to worry about it. Really made things easy on me. Thank you.

So that's, and that was an example of something he did.

Yeah. So that would be something I would say to him.

And that's what you really love, right?

Yes. So it's easier for me to say it.

I'm just curious. Does he really love it when you do it? Like, does. Because I, I, I do. Funnily funny example you just used, because I am the planner for us when it comes to trips. Like, Audrey will plan a trip away somewhere, and Audrey will be like, you know, on the day, let's eat here. I'd be like, what do you mean, let's eat here? Definitely. Yeah. And this is almost certainly not the best place we could be eating. Like, let me find what's the place around here. And I've already done that, like, three weeks before the trip, and I've figured everything out and whatever. And it's, we at one point had a little bit of friction where she was just like, let's just, you don't need to worry about, let's just do this and whatever. And I didn't feel recognized for how much effort I actually put into planning the trip.

Yes.

And When I remember a distinct moment when she said to me that I see how much you've done for this trip, and I see how much you've, like, tried to plan the best possible experience. And there's so much fun I'm having that I, you know, I'm just able to have. Because you've already thought of all of this, and I really appreciate it. And so. And that did mean so much, I bet.

Yeah.

But I'm almost curious about the. That as an interesting example of, like, someone can be not great at saying those words, but they might be very connected to how good those words feel when they're given to them. So I'm wondering if your husband. If he's one of those people who doesn't necessarily do it naturally but really feels good when you do it, or if he's someone who doesn't do it naturally but also doesn't really care if you do it.

Well, if he were sitting here, he would say he doesn't need much of that.

Okay.

And I think, you know, that was. It was a. That was also this whole conversation around needs was an. Like, an ongoing one for us, like I said, for around 10 years, where he'd say, I just don't need anything. Like, I'm just. I just don't need much. And you need a lot, you know, which is always triggering for. For people to be told, well, you need so much. And I remember one time saying, well, I already. Because I meet your needs. Like, I'm doing it so you don't feel it. And I think that's the case a lot of times, is that, you know, we all have needs. People have needs, you know, period. And we have, you know, needs that sort of, you know, do more for us, move the needle more for us in certain categories in certain areas. And so for me, it's words, and for him it's less words, but he still has that need. And so we just have maybe a kind of like a volume issue or a volume discrepancy. So he might need, you know, like, touch light a lot more than I do or something. But I always notice that when it comes up for him, you know, he won't need this thing. But then all of a sudden, when he starts to feel kind of what you described, taken for granted, unappreciated, like his efforts weren't seen, he will have a reaction, and he will really need to hear that appreciation.

So it's really. It's really fascinating. I. You said something that I think is really, really important, which is you were willing to kind of almost point out how much he maybe takes for granted that you do all the time. That does make his life better. Yeah. And all the ways he doesn't even realize he has needs because they are being met. Yes. And if those weren't being met, that would. He would feel the difference, which is a wonderful luxury for any partner to have. That is actually predicated on the idea that you're already providing all of this value. And it's kind of that, in a way, that's what gives you. It's a crude word for it, but that's what gives you that leverage, is that you're already providing all of that value. Could you speak to that a little bit? Because I feel like it's. A lot of people are showing up to not having their needs met, having also not really shown up in really valuable ways for the other person. And maybe they've got into this kind of very transactional state now that makes it hard for them to go and ask for something because they've also stopped giving, and now it's just point scoring. I don't want to do this because they never do this for me, but you get trapped in that because you do. It's hard to start giving to someone you feel isn't giving to you. Right. So could you just speak to that?

Yes. So I will just point out that in that particular moment, let's say my husband didn't start to step in my direction, my giving would probably have shifted. You know, I was speaking from a place of, like, I've been giving, and I'm kind of at my breaking point until I start to get a little bit of this in return. And so I think that's what happens to a lot of couples, is that, you know, one person is doing the giving, the other person is sort of just doing the taking. And then they start to dial it down, and then you get in the standoff. And it's really, unfortunately, quite natural that we don't like to give until we get. And so it goes back to this idea of our sort of belief system or our kind of, like our ethos around how we approach relationships, which is that it's our job to really step in to caring for our partner, to have some sense of humility, to sort of put our ego aside and to be able to show up for them. And so, you know, I realize that's easier said than done when you have a partner who also will engage in the work with you. But I, you know, I've said this before in. On interviews. I am not married to a. To another therapist. I'm not married to this man who is. He works in construction. Like, I'm married to a dude. And so we have had to sort of have some tension in our relationship around some of these topics to push through. But that's the natural sort of erosion of connection. A lot of times in relationships is one person's getting. They're not. They're. They're not really giving back. They're not reciprocating. The other person gets frustrated, and then they approach their partner and it's not met with any openness.

If you get to that point of neither of you have. You've both got into a bit of a standoff situation. What's your advice to people? Do you say, hey, there's, like, start giving without ego just for now, so that you can actually practice what you're preaching and model the kind of giving that you want from them. And that makes it more easy for you to have that conversation from a place of saying, look, this is the way I'm showing up for you. Or is there a different way of doing it? How do you. How if you feel starved and they feel starved, who. Where do you start?

Right. So there are a few ways you can approach it. So one is to give without any expectation, which is really hard. So if you're going to step into giving without any expectation of getting anything in return, you have to sort of prepare yourself for doing that type of work, because a lot of people will try that, and then they'll just get really resentful immediately, really fast. Yeah. And then they'll just be, like, huffing and puffing around the house and, you know, really tense. And so if you're going to do that, know yourself a little bit, have some insight. Can I do this? And I think it's helpful to set a timeline. So, okay, I'm gonna give with no expectation for 30 days, because then you have the sort of light at the end of the tunnel where you're like, at the end of this 30 days, I'm going to have some information about how my partner responds, and then we can talk about this. But I'm gonna put all of my own expectations of receiving aside for 30 days. So that is really helpful to. For both people, but definitely the person who's engaging in that work. The second is that you might have to just have a conversation and you really might just need to talk to your partner about this. And this is where I think it's. It's Difficult, because a lot of times, defensiveness will show up in these conversations. And so you have to enter into it kind of with a plan. If defensiveness shows up, how do I want to talk about this, and how am I going to kind of work through? A lot of my book gives strategies for how to handle these difficult conversations. But, you know, you can start with just sort of explaining, kind of like I did with my own husband. This is a need that I have. Doesn't mean that you're failing me. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. This is just what I need in our relationship. And so I'm hoping that you can do a little bit more of this. Needs are usually something you want removed from, from the relationship, multiplied or added. And I think that framework can help because sometimes as soon as our partners approach us with a need, we think we somehow have fallen short or let them down. When a lot of times it's just that we need to do more of something we're already doing for them.

And if they. I really love that. If they say to you, well, that's just not natural to me, or that's just not how I'm built. How do you deal with that kind of a defense?

Yeah, so I always, like, I kind of believe that you sort of incrementally increase confrontation sometimes the more resistance that you experience. And this is really uncomfortable for a lot of people, but it's important sometimes to get through that resistance, to have a breakthrough in the relationship. So I would probably reply with something along the lines of, okay, that's not who you are. So how do you want. How do you want our relationship to feel? What is the ideal vision you have for our relationship? And then, you know, maybe they'll be like, oh, no, you're happy all the time. Maybe it'll be really brief, or maybe they'll have this long vision. And then my next response would be, what are you willing to do to get there? Because what I hear is that you're not really willing to do much of anything. I'm willing to do quite a bit to make our relationship work, but what are you willing to make changes around? And then you sort of hopefully can then have that next step into the conversation to talk about specifics.

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Head over to cozyearth.com, use that discount code Love life while it's available. Enjoy your bed sheets and stay cozy when you get into a relationship with someone. Let's take a very classic example. They're very messy and you're not. And it. Maybe the conversations we're talking about now are the same conversations as the one that I'm about to explore. But to what extent do you accept that they're messy? And to what extent do you say, but that's really not like the house I want to live in. I'm a tidy person. My mind works with order. I. I just need, I need this, like, to where is there a middle ground? Or. And I think a lot of people confuse these things, right, because they go, what is fair compromise? And what is me just having no standards? Could you speak to that?

That one is so tricky. Relationships are a constant negotiation, really, of two people's expectations and standards. You know, in that specific example, one person could argue that they're sort of being harmed by the messiness, right? It's, you know, there's this new research coming out about how women actually are kind of affected in a pretty big way by messes and their. Their overall mental health. So you could make the argument, you know, your need to be messy may not be as important or impactful as my need to have some tidiness. Around here. So in that specific examp example, I'd probably lean in towards that a little bit. But I think, you know, in relationships in general, there's constant negotiation around expectations. And I think these are things that you talk about before you get in a committed relationship. So you're entering into it, having kind of like, you know, you've seen what you're, what you're getting into, and then you revisit it for what works for your life, what feels good to both people to a relative degree. You know, sometimes one person's going to step toward the other a little bit more, more, and, you know, that really fits the goals for your family, which are constantly, constantly shifting. Something that often goes overlooked with expectations is that a lot of times there's pretty deep history where they come from. And so we think, oh, you just have this issue with cleanliness, like you're a little uptight. Can you relax? Just enjoy our space. I want to feel comfortable in my home when maybe there is some past experiences or background growing up where the home was never tidy and it felt like chaos. And so when things are in order, it feels a little bit more calming to the nervous system. So I think, you know, we have to. I talk. There's a whole chapter, a whole section actually on expectations. But I think we have to be willing to really unpack. Like, where do these come from for you? What does tidiness mean to you? And here's what, you know, relaxing and being comfortable in my home means to me. How can we come together and come up with a solution that works for the both of us?

I don't know why my brain goes here, but I think about, in terms of boxing, like, where that you. You're not just facing head on and trying to land punches, you're like stepping laterally.

Yes.

And I think there's something really interesting about that kind of lateral move of getting out of the present moment, which is very limited and very narrow and going, what is this to you? Where does it come from? I think that's a very, very powerful thing. And actually most people don't do it. And it's a route to empathy. It's a route to real connection and being closer. It's like watching a movie. There's one of the key devices in movies that makes us make us empathize with a character who in the beginning of the movie, we think is a curmudgeon or we think is just an asshole, or we think is we learn their backstory.

Yes.

The moment we learn their backstory, all of a sudden it's like, oh, they've, they can even do it with the worst people. You know, you can, you can go back and you can take a horrible on screen narcissist and go back.

Yes.

And all of a sudden you find yourself identifying with someone who's doing monstrous things in the present.

You feel connected to that completely.

Completely.

Yeah.

So that if that can happen in the most extreme cases, it, it can also happen in the much less insidious cases in our relationships by going back further.

Yes. And I find that when we don't learn the backstory of things, we tend to take some of their behaviors or actions personally. So a big thing for my husband and I early on in our relationship was around celebrations. So I had a family who celebrated everything. Like just the smallest thing. This is a bit much, honestly. It's like, oh, you got an A on your test, let's have a party. Like, everything was celebrated. My husband, almost none. So this isn't something. And I've known him forever. This is not something we talked about before we got married. You know, how do you like to be celebrated? But then we get married and I'm like pregnant and I'm thinking it's going to be, you know, a certain experience or he's going to be, I don't know, like, do you get a push present? Like, I don't know, it just seems like everything should be celebrated. This is a big deal. Or making a life here and feeling regularly disappointed. And it quickly becomes, well, he must just not care. He must not love me. He must. You know, we can very quickly start to create these things stupid storylines. But when I went back and we had this conversation around growing up experiences and he's like, we don't celebrate much of anything. All of that sort of feeling of it being personal, being about how he felt about me went away and we could have a productive conversation.

How, like, where did that end up? I'm just so curious.

He moved more toward me and I think this is in this one. I've also, like, he had some requests for me where he would say things like, can you not check up on how you're gonna get celebrated? Because I would have this anxiety that he wouldn't remember, he wouldn't do something. And so I'd be like, well, do you remember that this week? Or this or that? And he would be offended. You don't think I'm gonna take care of you? So that was my compromise for him. And then his was, he upped the celebration sort of level. It's not to my parents level, but it's much higher than what he grew up with and part of it. And this is something you and Audrey could talk about. But one of the most amazing things about having your own family is you get to decide what that looks like. You know, like, what traditions do you want to carry forward? What do you want to do differently? What do you want to repeat? And so it was just part of that conversation for us. We have kids. How do we want them to feel celebrated? What do we want to do in our family?

What's really beautiful about that is when you realize, oh, he didn't grow up this way. It actually gives you the ability to step into a leadership role and model what that looks like for someone who's never had it modeled for them and create culture. Like, I. I think that's a really key, key phrase in relationships in general, in life. You know, too often I think we're just reacting to a situation instead of going, I actually am. I'm a presence in the room. My energy has the ability to change things, to shift things, to. To create culture. And I. Someone might not have this culture, but by the way I show up or by the way I educate them, or I might be part. Like, Audrey has absolutely changed my culture on slowing down in certain ways, appreciating in certain ways. I have absolutely changed her culture in going after it in certain ways. And, you know, like, it's. We. We've both impacted each other's culture there. And I think that's a really. That is one of the most beautiful things about relationships is that you get to do that. How do you see those kinds of disagreements in dating, as opposed to in a marriage, when you're dating someone and you see someone who's not communicative in the way that you would like, you know, not great with their words, not expressive. Doesn't call as much as you'd like, doesn't text back as often as you'd like. I'm curious how you see the difference in how you have those conversations at that stage versus with someone you feel much safer with because you've got this long history together.

So I think of dating as almost a time of using, like, the utmost discernment. So dating is like an evaluative experience, and not like you're constantly judging the other person, but you're kind of gathering information and data about them. Do I like how much they call? Do I like how much they text? Do they call when they say they're gonna call? Like, that's a big one, right? Following through with what you say you're gonna do. Where I see marriage as you're gonna do everything you gotta do to keep things close and connected. You want to turn down the judgment, turn down sort of the evaluation, and kind of be as easy on each other as possible. But in dating, how I'd want to approach that conversation is almost like a test case. If you aren't happy with how things are going, bring it up. And how do they respond? That is what. That is such an important thing thing to sort of check out before you deepen your commitment. I think one of the most important things about a partner in a dating relationship is that they're willing to grow into change. And I don't mean change into another type of person, but they're willing to have their culture impacted. They're willing to expand and to learn new things, and they're open to growth. So if you bring up, hey, I wish you kind of called me a little bit more, and you're immediately met with defensiveness and pushback and what. You just are so needy. What's your problem? Get off my back. You know, that's information worth considering. And if you are not enjoying that experience in your dating life, I would be. It would be a red flag to me around what that looks like. As you deepen your commitment.

To what extent do you think we should give people the benefit of the doubt? If, for example, if you had brought something like that up with your husband in dating.

Yes.

I have no idea how that would have gone. But if he didn't have those tools, he may have gotten defensive. He may have. How do you differentiate between what is a reflex response that shouldn't be taken too seriously versus a genuine red flag?

I mean, that's a kind of a complex question because it's. It's like in dating, you're kind of doing a character analysis, like, what is going on with this person? Because back when I had that conversation with my husband, when we were dating, he would have. I mean, we've probably had that conversation. He would have been defensive. We were really young, so it's. It's getting to know all these different aspects of a person. So overall, was he a conscientious guy? Did he do what he said he was gonna do? Did he apologize when he did things that, you know, hurt me or show that he cared? Yeah, for the most part, yes. What did I see in terms of how his parents interacted or his family growing up experiences like, where is he coming from what's the culture he's going to bring into our relationship. So I feel like part of it is kind of like this in depth character analysis that you're sort of trying to parse out what is a knee jerk, normal defense, which people. Defensiveness is normal. You know, that's a common thing. We all do it. And, and what is actually a bigger issue that's going to be really difficult to live with in a relationship. And I think, you know, one of the big things is what I said before, which is changeability and openness. Openness to change. It might come delayed, might come a little bit after that conversation. But I think also we have to sort of zoom out and gather information along the way in the relationship and look at what is the pattern or what is the picture it's painting of this person. Is there more good than bad? Are some of these things just skills, communication skills, conflict management skills that can be taught, that can be learned? Or is this more of a. They just don't ever see my perspective. They just don't ever get in my shoes. That is something that is less changeable and I'd have more red flags around that.

How do you help people distinguish a gut feeling that should be listened to from anxiety that comes from past experience having a nervous system that is flaring up? There are so many people who find themselves in a situation where they maybe are getting a strange feeling. Maybe someone's not texted them back. Maybe someone did something that their brain is telling them could be interpreted as danger, but they just don't know. And I think we've all had that situation before where we kind of what we thought was our gut telling us something. It's very common to hear people go, oh, I should have listened to my gut. My gut was telling me something. But it's also true that sometimes we get this feeling deep down like, oh, this is my gut's telling me something about this person. And we learn we were completely wrong or overreacted or were too harsh to in judging that person. How do you help people distinguish between their anxiety and their gut?

Yes. In dating.

In dating, I mean in life too.

But yeah, it does seem like it's, it's becoming even more of a thing in dating where there's a ton of anxiety, especially around like the texting back and, and things like that. So.

And I think even for people who maybe have been betrayed before, who are like I, because there's a past reality, there's a past reality there and now they, they're kind of they don't trust themselves anymore. This person in front of me is doing something that you know is triggering me, but I don't know if that's me or if it's that they genuinely did something wrong.

Yes. Yeah, that is very tricky and I think we're seeing more and more of that. I, I, there's a few things I think. One, you have, you sort of have to have a bit of like, I don't know, there's just vulnerability and dating. It's just kind of scary putting yourself out there, especially if you've had a betrayal or some serious hurt. So you want to do it almost with a strategy or a plan, I think. And so you, I believe it's helpful to give people the benefit of the doubt. So let's put all conclusion drawing aside. They didn't text me back. I'm going to assume the best. I'm going to assume something happened, that something came up, their phone died, they dropped it in the toilet. I don't know. There's a million reasons why that could have happened. I'm going to assume the best, but I'm going to remember, I'm just going to mark this down, maybe write it down if you need to. If you're really unsure of how to like, trust yourself, I'm going to remember it, but I'm going to assume the best and I'm going to wait and see what happens. And I, I think that, you know, in dating it's almost like this. I don't want to like cheapen it. It's not a scientific approach, but in some ways you're constantly kind of testing, seeing how this goes, gathering information and making adjustments. I think part of the way that you guard your heart is that you have to pace your attachment to that person. You want to keep that sort of in check. You don't want to, you know, really move quickly and your relationship really fast to the point where then you can't even discern like what is what. So if you guard your heart, you pace your attachment, then you can be a bit more observational. You can kind of pay attention to some of these things and start to look for patterns. I think over time you'll figure out, you know, okay, my gut was right, like there's something weird going on here. Or I kind of tend to like see the worst in people and go to the worst case scenarios when really I need to keep myself in check.

What if someone has their, they're telling themselves in the moment, okay, assume the best. They haven't texted Me back. Like, don't go there. But then like, nervous system's just. Yeah, gone. They're now they're like, no matter how many times I logically tell myself that I am, I have gone into this fearful place. How do you get your body to catch up to or even just calm down to. To be able to be in that logical place of. Well, I'm going to assume the best. Which is kind of a. We would. Which in some ways we're trying to rationalize ourselves into something, but our body is not listening.

Yes. I think it's a lot of the things that we can sort of see on social media that is like, how do you regulate your nervous system? Some of that stuff is kind of starts to become cliche when we see it a lot, but it just really helps. So get outside, go for a walk, call a friend, go get like, you have to get out of that moment and disrupt what's going on with you.

What is your number one way of disrupting? Like, for you personally?

Usually it's exercise. Like lifting something heavy helps me discharge a lot of that. Just like. Yeah, built up. So that would be it. If I had to do it instantly, I would probably just step outside. There's something about. It's funny with babies, even outside and water are like two things that seem to always calm a baby down outside. Like getting outside in the sun and being in water. The water, yeah. They almost always calm a baby down. So it's almost the same. Maybe we're just wired this way. But yeah, getting outside tends to really help if you have to. If you have to do it in the moment. But call a friend, like just. Just sort of distract yourself, move through the moment. For me, another one is I like comedians a lot. So I will put on Spotify and I'll pull up a comedian I like and I'll laugh. And it's almost impossible to feel anxious while you're laughing. So figure out what works for you and have a strategy that you go to in those moments.

The hard thing is that a lot of those things that we need to do to feel better at the complete opposite of the things that we actually feel drawn to do. We feel drawn to scrolling and we feel drawn to checking their social media or to looking at our phone again to see if a text has come through. The number of times in my life I have, like, put myself into a gym class or some session that I'm literally there and I'm like a zombie because my brain is just racing with whatever is making me Anxious. Whatever text I'm waiting for, whatever decision I'm waiting on, whatever is the last place in the world I want to be doing. It may not shift be me by 80%, but it might give me 10 or 20%.

Takes the edge off.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think in many areas of our life, we have to do things sometimes before we feel ready to do them. So it's like a classic example of that of, like, I don't feel ready to go to work out, but I'm so anxious. Well, I need to really lead with my behavior in moments like that.

Yeah, I. It's always such a very. A vivid one for me when I'm stressing or anxious about something in my day. And then I come and do something like this, have a conversation on camera, shoot a video. Usually like one of the best ones is like actually deliver a webinar. And it's crazy that by the end of it, my brain has lost track. I've had to be so in the moment with whatever I'm doing that my brain has lost track of that thing that felt really stressful or that really made me worry.

Yeah. And we live so much of our life outside the moment now because of our devices. So it becomes that much more important that we learn ways of kind of tapping into that just complete, fully present. You're not being pulled out of that present moment. It becomes so hard these days.

Hey, everyone, before you go any further with this interview, have you tried Matthew, Matthew AI yet? This is my digital mind where you can either text or call me to ask me any question you would love to get my advice on. You can try it for free@askmh.com it blows people's minds every time. If you have not tried it yet, please think of a question you'd love to ask me right now. And go to askmh.com to ask my question. Digital mind, your biggest question. I will see you there. Now back to the interview. When you take a bird's eye view of everything you've seen over the last few years, has your view of marriage changed at all? Have you looked at it and are you seeing patterns in, like, have you come to the conclusion that more people should get married, that less people should get married? I'm just curious how you think of marriage in general at this point because I was not someone who was like, for sure sold on the idea of marriage. And then I met Audrey and I had conversations with people I really trust and I got to the point where it really felt like it made a lot of sense for me and that I felt really connected to the idea of it. But I'm just curious what you're seeing.

Well, I mean, I'm a fan of marriage. I think the reality is, though, that marriage can be really hard. And I think that we don't do anyone any favors by suggesting that it isn't sometimes. And part of the reason it's hard is because we are combining two different experiences, backgrounds, family, growing up experiences and conditioning and programming. And we're putting two people together and being like, okay, figure this. Figure this out. And it's. It's tricky, I think, something that I. But it's worth it. And it's worth it because when you come together with somebody who is in it with you, who's safe, who is relatively healthy, you don't have to be perfectly healthy, relatively healthy. You both will have a light shined on areas that you need to grow and to develop. And that's part of why it's hard.

And for people who are skeptical of that, why can't they do that outside of a marriage? Or is this something you feel about marriage that makes that much more likely to happen? And also I'm curious as to whether you think that marriage makes sense to the same extent outside of the context of kids, if two people are not ever going to have kids.

Yeah, I think. Can you grow in the same ways outside of marriage? Sure. I think, yes. I think it's probably not going to be. It's not going to hit you as hard. Maybe it's going to take a lot of effort and a lot of work. And I think, you know, for the most part, not for the most part completely, we're wired to be in relationships. You know, we're relation. Humans are relational. And so we really thrive in the context of a healthy, safe, committed relationship. And so I do think that you might get there a little bit quicker, you might get to a deeper level of that personal growth and that personal change. And, and it's been really cool. You know, 17 years of marriage is not like a little bit of marriage, but it's also not like 40, 50 years. We're kind of in a. We're like, yeah, we're sort of veterans. But it's been this really cool experience to look back on how much we have both changed for the better as people, how we love each other. And I think it's a beautiful thing in terms of your question around the larger landscape of marriage, something that I feel like I'm seeing societally, we, we politically, even, we like, to sort of say, you know, it's better to be this kind of collectivistic kind of culture. You know, we want to love everybody, take care of everybody, all these things. But then I see. At least what I see is that we're becoming more individualistic in our relationships. You know, if you don't serve me, if you don't make me happy, I'm gonna put a boundary up, I'm gonna cut you off, I'm gonna leave my relationship. And I think that we really need to. If we're going to be married, going to be in a committed relationship, we have to both have this openness to really show up for each other, to grow, to expand, to change, to become better than we would be on our own. But the individualistic perspective in our relationships makes it really hard to do that, because the moment it's not serving you, the moment you're not. You're not happy, people are going to check out.

Do you think people are too judgmental in dating today to do, you know, do you. Do you feel like people are going in with their expectations too high?

I don't actually know. I think there's probably a subset of people who are very judgmental, very like, kind of me focused, sort of like, my life's good on its own, so what are you going to bring to improve my life? But then I also think there are those people that should be more judgmental who almost need to use more discernment. So I don't know. I do just see, though, in the committed relationships, even in fear family relationships, we're seeing this whole movement around completely connect, disconnecting from your family, that we are becoming quite individualistic.

Could you delve into that? More people disconnecting from their family?

Yeah, almost.

In what sense? Like, just from a point of view of caring less about maintaining the relationships or cutting them off because they don't like something they did cutting them off.

I'm seeing more and more of that where it's like, oh, you know, my family doesn't understand this about me. We just don't see them anymore. We don't. I won't talk to my mom or I won't talk to my dad anymore. And I know that there's legitimate trauma, you know, and there's situations where that is necessary, but it's almost like there's a movement around this sort of complete disconnection.

It's really interesting. Yeah, there's. Because I've heard. I've seen both sides of this argument, and there's a. I'VE seen. There's a. A guy who wrote a book really recently. I think it's called the Power of Parting.

Okay.

Which was very much about, you know, it talks about his mother's highly abusive relationship with him and how he had to cut her out completely. And the. The book is about how much liberation and freedom and emotional well being can come from cutting someone out completely. And parents and people like that are the hardest people in many ways to cut out completely. I've also seen the other movement online that talks about we've become far too sensitive. We now feel like someone doesn't like the way we live, and all of a sudden they're dead to us and we cut them off. And so I've seen that side of it, too. I'm curious as to whether you fall more on one side or the other or, you know, you may just say no. I think it's just. It is the way it is. There are situations where it's appropriate. There are situations where it's not. But what's your bird's eye view of that?

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle because I do think, you know, this, the story that you mentioned, I mean, that's probably a really appropriate situation in which to cut your family off. And I haven't gone too deep into. We're kind of wandering down this path. I haven't gone too deep into this. But I do think there's also this other side where it is almost like there's like. Like there are buzzwords that sort of show up on social media and kind of in just the zeitgeist. And I think for a while, buzzword was boundaries. So it's boundaries. And a lot of people misunderstand what they are and how they're meant to be used. And so it's almost like, well, if you don't do what I think you should do, I'm putting up a boundary. We're cutting you off. And it is a little bit too much of a misinterpretation of that and a sensitivity thing. But I think where I see it playing out, this whole idea of people kind of being quick to disconnect is in how people can approach their marriages and their committed relationships, which is that if we are all about what is best for me, are you making me happy? We're sort of missing the point of what a really committed, healthy relationship is about, and we're going to miss out on some of the benefits of really being in a good relationship.

Are there any ways that you see people kind of misusing or misunderstanding the word boundaries in dating, specifically because I sometimes have a fear, even as people are watching my work, that there is a misinterpretation of things that people. They like learning about boundaries. They like learning about standards. There's something incredibly empowering about it, especially for someone who has gone too far the other way in their past and has, you know, felt walked all over. And it's caused a lot of pain in their life for them to let people get away with so much. So now the pendulum swings in the other direction. And I see people who are constantly talking about how great they are at recognizing the wrong behaviors, but they're still single after a very long time. And I. In that I see particular cases where that's not just bad luck. It's that they really have gotten good at keeping people out. They really have gotten good at finding issue with things people are doing or labeling them something or. And it's now become what initially was something that really saved them has kind of potentially gone too far the other way.

I think that happens a lot where it's something good. Too much of something good becomes bad. And I think, you know, boundaries are meant to be safeguards that we put up to protect the relationship, to help preserve the relationship, really. Like, if you put up a boundary with your family, it's like, I'm gonna put this up so I can handle being around you in a way that feels kind of safe and secure. And so I do. You're more in the dating world than I am. But I absolutely have seen time and time again where somebody learns a new skill, they sort of apply it to everything, and they have now used boundaries so much to the point where they've just built walls all around themselves.

I really like that idea of boundaries being something that can preserve a relationship with someone. I don't know if I've heard it said in that way before, but that's a. I think that's a really astute way of putting it.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the misinterpretation out there is that we think a boundary is something that we put down to cut someone off when it's like, no, we're putting that in there so that we can continue to have a relationship in a way that we're protected. We're feeling pretty safe. I think the other misinterpretation around boundaries is that we think that it means that the other person has to do what we want them to do, when really, it's just kind of like, this is how we're going to react if this particular boundary is crossed. This is how we're gonna handle. Because you cannot control how other people show up.

Yeah. No. And they become a way of preserving your own energy.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm curious, David over there, if there was anything. David's in a long term relationship as well. And I was wondering if, as you're listening to all of this from your own point of view, there was anything that came to mind that you wanted to ask.

Yeah, definitely. So it kind of goes back a little bit, but when you look at a relationship where there's, you know, history and history in just a good way, like, you've. You've learned things, you've seen their patterns. I was asking Matt about this, like, how you deal with the history on both sides of, like, okay, at this moment in time, you're not doing something that I would love to see as a behavior. But I also know what is my platform to criticize you or to. To. To say that when I know that in the past I haven't always been 100% stellar. So is there a way that you can recognize the fact that you still want to come to a situation where you see something that you need with confidence and you want to communicate it confidently and not feel like that you're downplaying that because you know that you're not perfect?

So almost like, how do you get comfortable expressing what you need, knowing that maybe you're not, like, getting 100% in that category? I think of expressing your needs as a courtesy that we give to our partners. Because if we do not express a need and we're like, this is kind of a small one, I can kind of handle this for a while. It's not that big of a deal. Maybe I'll get over it. And it keeps showing up eventually. Might be a while, but eventually that turns into resentment, that turns into frustration, and all of a sudden one little thing might happen, and it's like all of this frustration over not getting this need met is going to rush to the surface and I'm gonna have a big issue. So I believe it's a courtesy to our partners to tell them when we need something, we could definitely do it in ways that are softer or generous. Right. We can express them in certain ways because ultimately it's helping to set our partners up for success.

And what about from the other end where maybe you have expressed that and then there is maybe some defensiveness.

Yeah.

Still feeling like then you have to push. All right, you just expressed Your need. Then you get defensiveness. And then you have to keep pushing when still, you know, you're not perfect. Is there any advice on like, how to keep that resolve without coming across as bullish or being too aggressive with your, with your need?

I mean, part of it is. So I think in every relationship there's like a self part. There's like this within sort of work that we have to do. And then there's that between work with the dynamic. So part of that's the self work, which is like, I'm allowed to have needs. You almost gotta like, have this like, mantra like, I'm allowed to have needs. I don't need to be perfect. You don't need to. To achieve perfection before you're allowed to ask for what you need. So I'm, I'm allowed to be imperfect and still have needs. And so you kind of need to like, rest on that, make it your mantra, repeat it and, and help yourself. But then the other piece is like, how do you push through that defensiveness? And there, there's lots of things that you can do. So you express a need. They push back with defensiveness. One is that strategy I talked about earlier. What do you want our relationship to be like? What are you willing to do? Another is, okay, so because say, first of all, a common response is like, you need too much, or I already do this, or I just don't understand this need. So they have these kind of common responses. So what you would say back would be something along the lines of, when is it okay for me to express a need to you and you will receive it. You sort of want your partner, if they get defensive, to own their reaction and explain what sort of like the right way looks like to you. Because the reality is they just really don't want to hear it. There's never a good time. Another, they just, you know, it's uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good to feel like we're letting it somebody we love down. So it's pretty normal to get defensive. But that's one, you know, when am I allowed to have a need? And they're like, well, you can have needs. Okay, so how can I express it in a way that you'll receive it? I'm happy to make adjustments. What can I do? And I'm not being condescending, being genuine. Like, how do you, how do I make this shift? You know? Oh, you just never pick the right time. I'm happy to change my time. When is a good time for me to bring up so that Was my husband's for a while. You never pick the right time, which is probably true. I do it before bed, a terrible time. But you know, I'm happy to change the timing. What can I do so you can receive it if there's still pushback? Another common go to that I think can be really helpful is, you know, how do you want me to feel in our relationship? Like, I want you to feel loved, I want you to feel safe. I want you to feel like what you need is important to me. Like, how do you want me to feel? I feel when this need isn't being met. X, Y and Z. It does not feel good. So I want to talk about how we can make some adjustments. I didn't say this at all during the interview, but one of my big beliefs, a big part of my book, it's around a topic called the mental load. I don't need to explain it unless we get into that, but it's.

Could you. What, what, what does it relate to?

So the mental load is the regular and ongoing sort of mental to do list we carry around in our heads that takes up a lot of cognitive real estate. So a lot of space in our brains and also usually is made up of invisible things. And everybody has one. Like you, I'm sure you kind of were talking about even being, you know, like your exercise class. Your mind's going, it's like that's your mental load. In home and family life, the majority of the mental load is almost always carried by women. That's what research says. I'm not just like saying that. And it causes a lot of resentment, disconnection and frustration in relationships. And if you, you're not in this space. But if you ever go down the rabbit hole of looking at mental load content, it is a very hot topic. It's a hostile topic and it's a lot of frankly it's a lot of male bashing type of content. And so in my book, what I wanted to do was to write a book that invited men to the conversation because if we ultimately want to see it shift, they got to feel safe there to talk about this.

And where does this come from? Does it come from men unconsciously seeing it as just a given that the woman in the relationship is going to take care of those things or she's going to be thinking about the kids got a test today or you know, they have to be picked up at this time and they also have a social club afterwards. And like, is it just this kind of inbuilt, like Traditional.

How do we get there?

Yeah, like, is that, is that where that comes from? From guys is just like even. They may not even know they're doing it consciously, but they're just unconsciously offloading all of that onto women to take care of and think about.

I think it's like the collision of a few things. My big picture view is like the game is rigged. It's just kind of rigged against us. Like, let's depersonalize this. I know there are jerks out there who really are, you know, resistant to participating, but let's just kind of depersonalize it. I think it's a couple things. The way that men and women are socialized differently. Women are socialized to self sacrifice for the preservation of our relationships. And so we then prioritize certain things differently. You know, if we have kids and our kids are really poorly behaved and they're dressed like slobs and our home is a mess, who's being judged for that? You know, we are. So we're going to enter into that time of life with higher expectations. Naturally, men, it sounds archaic, but it still exists, are socialized to provide and protect financial and physical security. So you prioritize things differently. So I think, you know, research shows that after kids enter the picture. We're going on a big tangent. Is this okay?

Yeah. I find all this fascinating.

Okay. I'm like, we are way far from your question at this point, but we can circle back.

Do a giant circle back.

We'll do a giant circle. Research shows that how men and women are impacted differently after kids enter the picture. And so women feel this sort of like drop in their overall kind of satisfaction, relationship satisfaction around loss of freedom and also the increase in responsibilities. So the mental load stuff exists before kids, but it really clicks in after that. Whereas men are impacted by the decrease in usually their sex life and the increase in the pressure to provide. So we kind of see these things kind of playing out. So that's one the second, I think. And this can relate to dating, actually is something I call piling on, of course, precedence, which is that I believe women, especially early on in relationships, all the way back in dating, we just do stuff for our partners out of love. It's like, you know, I remember early on being like, oh, hey, like I noticed you're out of deodorant. Like, I got you, you know, or hey, Mother's Day is coming up. I sent something to your mom. Like, don't even worry about it. Like, I did it because it just felt good to Give and I. It's how I would care for my husband, and I enjoyed doing that. And it's a beautiful thing. It's not a bad thing. But the first time, he'd be like, yeah, you're the best. The second time, thanks. The third time, he's not even aware of it because these things start to become owned by me and completely out of his awareness, off of his checklist. And we do this way back in dating all the way. If we end up getting married all the way through marriage to the point where we end up actually having quite a lot on our plates that is completely invisible. No, he's not even aware that it's happening anymore. And so by the time kids enter the picture, responsibilities sort of explode. And you're sort of set up to be at a massive imbalance pretty quickly.

If you're trying to, Reese, either reset that or bring it back into someone's awareness so that there's a newfound appreciation for those things. I'm wondering, do you. Do you lean one way or the other in terms of either resetting how much you're. You're giving or having a technique, a way of re establishing these things as appreciated rather than just assumed or even unconscious, as you said?

Yeah, the work is really both things. And so part of the work and it, you know, it differs. I have a lot to say on this topic, so you can just cut me off. But, you know, part of the work is maybe renegotiating how things are done. Like, this isn't working for us. We gotta, like, look at who does what, and we gotta find a new balance. It's kind of the logistical side of it. Sometimes that's what you got to do. I think kind of, I guess where I tend to lean a little bit more is that I think couples just need to be able to talk about it without it spiraling into an argument. Because a lot of people can't get to the logistical side of things because they can't have this conversation. Conversation, you know, I need you to do more around the house. Oh, my gosh, I've been working all day. I'm exhausted. Like, what do you want from me? Don't I do enough? You know, it very quickly spirals into these really defensive conversations where one partner ends up feeling attacked, the other feels really alone. And so I think one strategy, sort of what I culminate in my book, is that you have to have a regular time where you come together and you talk about, how are we doing? Do things feel relatively fair? Unfairness is where resentment will grow. Do things feel relatively fair? Where do we need to make adjustments? What's coming up this week? Where do you need extra support? How can I jump in and have a plan to kind of move through it together so it's not. It's not an attack? And this is where I'm coming full circle. Okay, we're coming full circle here. My big overarching philosophy that I talk about in the book is that couples have to approach the mental load and many other things in their relationship that come up that cause disagreements as the shared enemy. They are on the same team that is the shared enemy. And when you can align, listen. Modern family life. Modern life is relentlessly busy. We have way too much on our plates. We have way too many things pulling at us, distracting us. The pressure to be productive and successful, and all of this stuff is pulling us apart in our relationships. That's the enemy. So how are we going to come together and how are we going to find our way through in a way that we still say connected?

Yeah, that's the way. It's really beautiful. And. And it is true that I think so. So much of this is all of the invisible things we end up doing for our partners and for the relationship and for our lives that just aren't really even sane.

Yes. So I'm a very practical sort of deliverer of relationship education normally. So I talk about. There's the big picture strategy, which is like, you have your meetings and you actually just treat it. Treat it like a meeting. Who cares if it's awkward? Who cares if it's weird? It's for the sake of your relationship. But I have little tools, too. So one in particular is narration. So I still, to this day, don't think my husband's listened to my podcast because he doesn't know I do this. But I do experiments on my husband in our relationship to see if I can shift our dynamic without him knowing. So if I change, can we change? And it works beautifully, and it's been kind of fun. So one that I started doing was narration. And so I would take one little thing that unpacks. So if I define the mental load in detail in the book, but usually one thing will unpack to contain a lot of things. I will narrate it out loud to him and not in a, you know, irritated, like, look what I did today type of tone. But I might say something like, our son plays baseball. So I might say, oh, hey, babe, by the way, I want you to know I signed Roy up for baseball. And I filled out the forms and I uploaded the birth certificate. And it's like you gotta send in like a DNA sample these days. It's absolutely wild. I paid the fees, I downloaded the app. You need to get the app too. But I wanted you to know I handled it. And what this does is actually really powerful. Number one, it took something that he would never even know existed. He does not know all the steps that are involved. Takes me two hours to sign our daughter up for swim. Like he doesn't know. Now he knows. So the invisible is now visible. The other thing is that now he has the opportunity to thank me because it might not bother me in the moment, but like that next week when I'm overwhelmed and feeling unappreciated, all of a sudden all that stuff will rush in. And the funny part is he doesn't know I did this experiment, but he now narrates too. So he will all, hey, babe, just so you know, I paid the taxes and I whatever with our retirement and I did this and I'm like, thank you. I'm so glad I don't have to think about that stuff because I'm terrible at it, you know. But we've created this atmosphere, fear of free flowing appreciation. And we've normalized that. We can talk about how we add value to our home and family. And a lot of people can't do that because they get defensive or in tit for tat arguments.

That's really good. I really, really, really like that. I'm trying to think if we do any version of that or if we.

Need to do it more, start doing it.

I think I need to start doing it. I think we both do. I. Because we've definitely had those conversations where there is just a lack of appreciation of how long something took or how many different decisions got made away from the, you know, the, the view of somebody else. And I think the. That idea of narrating it in that way, which actually when you listen to it doesn't feel completely unnatural.

Right.

It doesn't feel strange, especially when it's leading to. And now I need you to do this part or I need you to come in on this part. There's also a kind of. I think I could see that really breeding a respect as well for. Oh, okay, so all of this work has been done here. Now I'm coming in the like finish line and being asked to do this.

Yes.

I better not complain about that. Whereas if you just said, hey, I need you to sign these documents.

Yes.

Oh my God. I've got 20 other things. Yeah, it's like immediate resentment because you just added a. To do that when you narrate like that. What you're telling me is all of the things I didn't have to do today because you did them.

Yes.

Yeah, it's really good. I really like it. I really like your stuff. I. It feels rare when you meet someone who's just a real rational thinker, has really great practical advice, you know, puts it all together in a really coherent way and it feels doable. You know, the things you say, they take big problems and really difficult situations for people, and you break them down and you give practical advice in a way that makes it feel really doable and hopeful. And I. I think people like that are really rare, actually. I.

Thank you.

I really appreciate the work you do.

Look at that compliment. And you said you were good with words. Thank you. One of the nicest things I've been told about my work, so thank you.

No, I really feel it. I. It's. It's a joy to speak with someone where it just feels easy because I'm. I'm constantly interested in the next thing that you're going to say. So I hope we can do it again. The book is called A Better Share. It's this one right here. How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment and Great Sex by Dr. Morgan Cutlet. By. People will find that book anywhere. Books, yes. Are sold. And what's the best way for people to find you?

Social media? Probably Instagram. It's a Dr. Morgan Cutlip. All one word. My website is the same.

Drmorgancutlip.com Is there anything else you feel just for people who want to get the book, they should know about it.

My secret agenda in writing the book I kind of mentioned was writing a book that men would enjoy reading that would feel like they weren't being attacked, that would offer these, like, almost like clarifying frameworks for why things are going on in their relationship that might feel really confusing and really big. And the book is for men and for women. But that was my secret agenda. And it's been really cool to watch feedback roll in. One story was a woman got the book, unpacked it, left it on the counter. It was not like passive aggressive or anything. But then she went out and ran errands and she came home and her husband was halfway through. And I was like, I love this. And I've heard time and time again around, like, meaningful changes happening in relationships after husbands are reading the book. And yeah, so I just want people to know usually both partners are really receptive to the content in the book.

That's beautiful. I, I, I truly believe that, that people finding relationships and having better relationships is just one of the keys to changing the world. I don't think it's a grandiose statement at all. I really believe that. And that you're helping people have successful relationships, I think is a really, really beautiful thing you're doing.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Leave a comment below and let me know what spoke to you about this interview. I'm so curious to hear because I know there was some stuff that really spoke to me. And don't forget to register for the Confidence Challenge before you go. We consume so much content these days and not enough of it makes a practical difference in our actual lives. This is the opposite of that. It will supercharge your efforts to find love or simply help you make more of an impact in your life. It's free. It kicks off on July 15th and you can register@mhchallenge.com I'll see you there.

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