How To Leave A Narcissist (Part 2)

When you're microdosing on someone who's just poison in your life, but they stop you from meeting anybody else, it keeps you in this sick loop that you never get out of. Welcome, everybody, to the Love Life podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, Audrey Lestrat, James and Jordan, and the wonderful, the handsome, the intelligent, the intriguing, Stephen Hussey.

Hello, pickles, peaches, puddings, plums, and pears.

Did you add another one in there that time? No. Pickles, peaches, you added puddings.

Puddings isn't normally in there.

No, he usually says puddings. Does he? Pickles, peaches and pears.

Plums. Plums.

I don't think there is no normal when it comes to that intro. It is what it is.

I've actually not heard you do that in a while, Steve. It's quite nice. No.

Well, you know, keep you on your toes. How are y'all?

Good. Very good. We are... Sorry.

Well, you feel like you're about to break into the We Are the Jam song then. Can we just sort of do a cut, Thomas, of... Audrey's starting the song with that. We are, and then it comes in with the jams.

I don't think it's gonna work.

Well, let's let Thomas be the judge of that. Thomas, our wonderful editor. Big shout out to Thomas.

He doesn't normally get a shout out publicly on the podcast. Big shout out, Thomas.

If you can just go ahead and put a foghorn in there for yourself. I'll just loop my foghorn. Welcome, everybody. So, yeah, how are we doing? We've got a good episode coming up today. We're gonna be talking about the, well, is a sort of extension of some of the stuff we've been talking about in relation to leaving really toxic situations and relationships with people that make your life really, really difficult, have brought you nothing but misery for a long time, or people that have just been really destructive forces in your life. Some would call them narcissists, but we want to talk today about the danger of needing too much to have that diagnosis of their narcissist or their sociopath. And for reasons that we'll talk about. I think this is going to be really interesting because some of you are listening to this podcast knowing that you should do something, knowing you should leave, knowing that you need to finally stop. Maybe you're not even with the person. Maybe you're not in a relationship. Maybe it's someone who's kind of on the periphery of your life, but you keep micro dosing on them. And that micro dosing, I always say in dating, micro dosing can be fatal because when you're micro dosing on someone who's just poison in your life, but they stop you from meeting anybody else, it keeps you in this sick loop that you never get out of. So when we talk about breaking free of really destructive relationships, they may not just be relationships with someone you're in a committed relationship with. It might be with an ex that you've not been able to let go of that every time they reach out, you allow yourself to be drawn back in. It might be with someone that you met who's been keeping you casual for a long time and has never given you more, but you've never been able to give them up and you've got some very good reason in your head about why you've never given them up. The connection is so great. The chemistry is so great. I've never met anyone like this before. I've never had this with anyone before. There's something so special between us. There's always a reason. But that person brings so much pain into our lives. Why is it we find it so hard to leave? And we're gonna, we did an episode on this, and I refer you to this episode because I think it's such a, I think it's one of the most powerful episodes we've done. That episode was on September the 14th on the podcast. It was called How to Leave. a narcissist, but it's great advice for anybody that you need to leave, not just someone who would be classified as a narcissist. But this episode is going to be a great follow on from that when we're going to dig into some of the problems that still trip people up when they're on the verge of leaving. I see it a bit, Jameson, like the, the Balrog in Lord of the Rings when Gandalf is about to climb back up to safety in the mines of Moria and the Balrog, just as you think he's dead, he sends that whip up, doesn't he, one more time and it wraps around Gandalf's ankle and it takes him down into the depths of the mines.

I feel like we used that reference really recently about someone. I can't remember. I feel like we did.

It's become a cliche in dating podcasts to use, to riff on the minds of Moria in Lord of the Rings. The Gandalf's trials in the mines of Moria.

Lord of the Rings memes seem to just have a life of their own. They're so good. Like they can do, they have so much use. Like Boromir when he goes into the mines of Moria and he says, you know, what does he say? He says, there's a line, he says, what's this new devilry? And that could be used, that could easily be a red flags meme when you see a new red flag you haven't seen before.

The one I really like is Frodo, who goes, Fine, you keep your secrets, and he has like a really kind of.

Yeah, that's a good one. Well, we are talking about that, defeating the Balrog of your love life.

For any Gen Z listeners, Lord of the Rings was an old book by a man named J.R. Tolkien, the beginning of epic fantasy.

And books are those paper things that sometimes they make movies out of.

Right, right.

You just made yourself sound so old.

I am just so... Yeah, Gen Zers, I just want to say to all the Gen Zers out there, we welcome you listening to this podcast.

Because they know what Lord of the Rings is.

It was a joke. I know they know what Lord of the Rings is.

Stop having a go. well, I want to remind everybody that this really is. Last time I said it was the final call, and I forgot that we had one more podcast before the virtual Retreat. This really is the final call for the virtual Retreat. It's on the 11th to the 13th of November. It's happening. It's here. It's upon us. Don't miss this chance. It's three days from Friday to Sunday. We're going to be together for three whole days. You could do it with from anywhere in the world. And it's not a love life Retreat. So I don't want you thinking that if you're in a It's not relevant to you. People make that mistake with our retreat all the time. They're like, oh, is it just for people who are single? It has nothing to do with being single or being in a relationship. It has to do with your happiness, your peace, your ability to deal with difficult moments in your life. How are you handling the challenges of your life right now? How are you handling this chapter of your life? Where do you want to go? Is your life going the way you wanted it to by now? Are you living the life that you're really proud of? Do you have the external success that you want? And if you do, is it making you as happy as you thought it would? If not, let's fix that. Are you as confident as you thought you would be in your life right now? Given everything you've been through, given everything you've overcome, given everything that's happened, do you have the relationship with yourself that you want? Do you feel peaceful? Are you able to deal with the difficulties in your life in an elegant way? this is what this program is about and we are going to solve these things together in partnership for three days of immersive coaching on the virtual retreat. If you have not already go get your ticket@mhvirtualretreat.com you will not regret it and I guarantee you you will have never been through a program quite like this. I hope to see you there. Now On with the episode. Let's talk about the ability to leave somebody or to end something that we need to leave, especially when that person is someone that, you know, we've watched—let's say our friend Dr. Ramani is an expert in narcissism. And she's amazing. We love her. I've interviewed her before. We've had her join us on live programs in the past. She has so much amazing information on narcissism. And one of the things that I think we can do when we find ourselves with all that information is saying to ourselves, this person I'm with or this person that's in my life or this person that keeps coming in and out of my life. Are they a narcissist? Because if they are, if we can diagnose them, it feels like we can finally say good riddance. You know, that person is the worst. They are a narcissist. They are. There is something wrong with them. I'm. I'm gonna let go of them. But then there might be that one thing that when someone says, this is a trait of a narcissist or a narcissist will always do this, and then you can look at your own situation and go, but they're not quite like that. But they didn't do that thing. But they're not always like that. Then we find ourselves constantly getting confused or stopping short of feeling like we can diagnose someone. And when that happens, it introduces doubt into our mind. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just being too harsh on this person. Maybe I need to give them more time. Maybe this is me just trying to create this one-sided Narrative of who they are, and they're a complicated person. This, I think, is a really dangerous trap to fall into. For me, we have to get to a point where we empirically assess, how often does this person make my life worse, not better? How often do I end up feeling negative around this person? How often does this person act selfishly? our, you know, is it eight times out of 10, nine times out of 10, seven times out of 10? And when the odds, people are complicated, right? And everything we have, all these terms that we have are labels. They're labels we use to describe people. But people are complex and very few people I've ever met, I can never come away from and go, they're all bad. I don't know if I've ever met someone that I can come away from and go, they're just all bad. People may have some good in them and the good is confusing. But we have to get to a point where we say it doesn't actually matter anymore whether this person is a diagnosable narcissist. What matters is X number of times out of 10 this person makes my life worst, not better. And I kind of think there are. There are people in our lives. There are friends who are in our lives because six times out of ten, they get it right. You know what I mean? Like, four times that they suck, but they get it right just enough that you. You go, okay, on balance, it's still. I'm still going to keep them in my life. they're a family like that. In fact, there are sometimes family that get it right four times out of 10. And they get it wrong six. But you say, I love them. They're important to me. I'm just going to lower my expectations and keep them in my life. But there are people that get it wrong so much, so often, that it no longer makes sense for our own survival, for our own happiness, for our own peace to have them in our lives. And I submit to you as the kind of first point I'd like us to make and discuss in this podcast, I submit to you that when the evidence is stacked in favor of I would have more peace without this person in my life, that we should stop asking the question of whether they really are a narcissist. and instead act on the weight of that evidence. Lose the need for the closure when it comes to the label. What do you think, Stephen?

I think that it is the trickiest when you're in that place of people bringing something to your life that is actually good and then having to put distance on that relationship or having to let go of it. I think that's the absolute hardest part of it. You can have that with close friends, relationships, family. It's just gonna be. It's just actually true that sometimes those relationships do bring something positive to your.

Life.

Despite having qualities you can't get too close to or something that just frustrates and upsets you, like they're. they're never gonna give in the way you want, or they're never gonna be able to see your perspective or whatever it might be. That's the hardest thing.

I've had to let people go from our company many times over the years. And the hardest part about doing it and the temptation is that you want that person to be the devil in that moment. You want them, especially if they've, if they're kind of doing some, something that's wrong or something that you really don't like, or they've got a personality trait that's really Troublesome. You want them to be the worst. You want them to be a bad person. because what you want is unambiguous emotion about that person at a time where you have to let them go. Because it's helpful, makes it easier. But we rarely in life get the satisfaction of genuine unambiguous emotions. That person you're letting go usually is a combination of good and bad. they have a life. You're affecting that Life by letting them go. It's going to make their life temporarily more difficult. There are some good things about them. They're not the devil. And the same is true in a relationship. There are people that you. The problem is. And the reason it's so hard to leave is that you don't have unambiguous emotions about them. They can do things occasionally that seem thoughtful or seem sweet or seem like they care or seem like they love you. Or what you do is you know them well enough to know that that thing that they do that's bad, that causes havoc and makes you miserable or hurts you doesn't come from an evil place. It comes from their own wounds. It comes from their own compulsions, their own addictions, their mess that they haven't figured out. And when that happens, we kind of go from thinking they're a bad person to thinking they're a person who deserves sympathy. And when we feel like someone deserves sympathy, we want to bring them in close again because we're like, but this is so ruthless just to cut them off. My point remains the same, which is that when you know that someone reliably and predictably brings pain into your life, if that's the conclusion you've come to, whether they deserve sympathy or whether they're just a bad person, which is a debate you might have in your head over and over and over again. Are they just a horrible, terrible person or are they good actually and they're just doing bad things and they deserve my sympathy? That debate no longer matters. It doesn't matter anymore.

Yes.

Because of the effect that they have in your life.

We get so lost in the philosophy, like, The nature of is someone an evil person? Are they bad? Like, it's like our fascination with analyzing, you know, the monsters of history or something to go to an extreme place. We're like, is it evil? Were they born that way? Or some people were just, at some point, it's like these questions are not relevant on a pragmatic level to what you're actually trying to get to today. Diagnosing someone as whether they are the embodiment of evil, it changes nothing. The reality is always, where do I live day to day? What's the ratio? You know, John Gottman talks about the ratio of positive to negative interactions. What's the ratio in that relationship? Do I get them at their best once a month? Once every six months? Do we have a golden weekend? and then you have to work back from there and go, am I happy living for that? Am I happy living with five days a week of someone being a nightmare for the one day a week they're sweet and an angel?

I think in addition to that, it's not just about how much time you get them in like being good in proportion to being bad. It's how does that make you feel? Because even if they are You know, good to you half the time, bad to you half the time. Are there bad actions nuclear to your life and your well-being? You know, I think it's more about kind of the barometer has got to always be how do I feel around this person?

Yeah.

How do they affect my life?

And the two questions that I think we trip up on are, are they really a bad person? And I think that is a red herring of a question when someone constantly brings bad things to your life. and bad emotions and bad results to your life, whether they're good or bad ceases to be important. And the other question that is a giant red herring is, do they love me? You know, but under, underneath all this, do they love me? Maybe they, you know, because I, they, if they still love me, then we feel like we hold on to that, like that really matters or even But.

I know they really love you.

But I know they really love you.

That's what people say.

And that's another red herring because at a certain point, that love has no bearing on your experience. And they may love you. You may never get the closure of being able to say they never loved me. You may never get that closure. Maybe they loved you. But despite loving you, that was the best they could give you and the best they could give you was a train wreck. And if that's the case, looking for closure on whether they ever really loved you and trying to hold on to that idea that they loved you and that's a reason to stay, is a complete red herring.

I also think people's definitions of love are very different. And I think that's something that's worth remembering. So the way that we experience love can be entirely different to how somebody else experiences it. So trying to judge their actions and make sense of their actions, they love me but they do this, it doesn't make sense, I don't understand. It's just because they don't have the same standards for what love means and they can love you in a very selfish way, whereas love is supposed to be very unselfish. Which their experience of it is, but I love you, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to you.

And if that's the case, you're never gonna experience the love you want to feel in your lifetime by staying with that person, regardless of how much they claim to or do in fact love you. And one of the hardest things about leaving is rewriting the story of where your happiness is going to be. I wanna read a piece that I wrote for all of our private subscribers. because I think it's very relevant to this and to not falling into the trap of looking for closure where there is no closure. The subject of this email that I sent out was, When there's no happy ending. Hard as it may be to stomach, not all relationships have a happy ending. We may never get the cathartic conclusion we'd hoped for, the one where the father finally says the words the child needed to hear all along. or where the mother finally apologizes for the effects her selfishness had on her daughter. Some people, be it a sibling, a parent, or a partner, will never understand, will never have the turnaround we pray they'd have. They'll never fully acknowledge, or maybe even understand, the pain they've caused. They may never accept they need to make the changes we've begged them to make, let alone actually make them. Some relationships weren't designed for forgiveness, at least not the movie version where two people come to understand and make peace with each other. We instead find ourselves left with the solitary job of forgiving them within ourselves, not because they have changed, but as an act of pragmatism for releasing ourselves from holding on to the pain they've caused. After 15 years of coaching, I've witnessed the human desire for closure wreak havoc in people's lives. Could there be anything more human than the need for catharsis? That damn need to close the loop. Sometimes we try to close the loop by giving someone their 159th last chance to do better, which is itself an exercise in madness. Other times we attempt it with someone who's not even there anymore, a parent who didn't give us the kind of love we needed, by finding their equivalent in the present and seeking to make it work this time. In both cases, we usually learn that in the end, all that was in store was more disappointment. None of this is to say that a happy ending isn't out there for us. The encouraging thing is just how many different versions of a happy ending there can be. Half the battle is in coming to the hard realization of where one will not be. and giving up the idea of one day conjuring one in such a place. There may, for example, be a happy ending for a daughter who learns to love herself better than her father loved her, and goes on to create a relationship with a new type of man she never knew as a child. Or for a wife who finally divorces a husband that cannot and never will be trustworthy. The bravery comes in our willingness to reset the coordinates of our happy ending. It is in the radical acceptance that in order to be happy in a new life, we will have to let go of a cherished idea of how we would be happy in our old one. In some cases, the melancholy of this loss may never quite leave us, especially when it means giving up on someone changing who is as elemental as a parent. But such melancholy is not in vain. For many of us, it may be the necessary counterpart to the happiness we will go on to create. A happiness that perhaps would never have been possible without a full appreciation of what kind of relationships we refuse to ever be part of again. Some darkness is not designed to become light. It is meant to direct us towards it. It is a terrible waste to stake one's life on a relationship that will reliably lead to misery, regardless of how good your intentions for it may be. But it is a miracle that we may use these experiences as the impetus to create something far better. Life will guarantee us some unhappy endings in the form of unsolvable relationships. true catharsis lies not in trying to solve them, but in showing ourselves they weren't for nothing. That was an email that I sent out to our private mailing list. And those of you who are not part of our mailing list may not know that a new part of my newsletter is that every Friday I send out a letter on my thoughts, my musings, something that I think is going to help people, something that is on my mind right now. and it is more of a diary entry than some of our other newsletters, which are just designed to help people solve the issues in their love lives or get through something they're going through. This is me every Friday writing a private letter to you. If you are not part of our mailing list right now, you can join for free by going to our website, howtogettheguy.com, on the homepage, you'll see there's a place where you can take a quiz. once you take that quiz, you will be on our mailing list. And every Friday, I will send you a private letter from me on something I'm thinking about that I think can help you in your life. Like that letter today. We cannot wait to speak to you in the next episode of love life. Thank you, James and Stephen and Audrey. We'll see you next time.