How To Overcome Anxiety About Your Biological Clock When Dating

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Visit sofi.com/power to learn more. That's S-O-F-I.com/P-O-W-E-R. Loans originated by SoFi Bank, N.A. Member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891. What if the next person wastes three years of your life? And what if that happens again? And what if it happens again? And this is real life that happens to people. Welcome everybody to the Love Life Podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, Jameson Jordan, Stephen Hussey, and Audrey Le Strat, also known affectionately as the Jamz Crew. We are excited to be here with you today. We are going to be talking about the subject of when to bring up that you want marriage and kids, especially with someone new who, well, I suppose with someone like that, it feels inappropriate to say it so quickly because we're afraid we're going to come on too strong. We're afraid we're going to send the wrong message. We're afraid we're going to scare someone off. But at the same time, we do not want to waste our time, especially if we're starting to feel like time is running out. So how do we deal with this? There are conversations we want to have. There are things we want to say. There's an impact we want to make, all of which requires good, solid communication. We have a program called How to Talk to Men that gives you lots and lots of very specific scripts that you can read and make your own, when you're in conversations in dating, and it's an extremely practical program. The good news is we're giving away a free chapter from that program today that you can go and download right now at getthefreechapter.com you don't need to get the whole program. You can literally just go and sample this free chapter by going to getthefreechapter.com Now onto the episode. All right, let's talk about it. Those early stages of dating where you know that there's something big you want to happen in your life that involves another person. How do you tell the other person that this is a big thing that I want in my life, even though we're really early in the process? And I'm scared that it's gonna be way too intense if I bring it up, but I'm equally scared that I'm wasting my time here if you don't want the same things. And I know I wouldn't even be on this date with you right now if I knew for sure that you didn't want these things, because it would be a dead end for me, given that I want marriage or I want a family.

It was my understanding that Audrey was gonna bring this up to you today, and this is the moment that we're doing it.

This is a... Wow.

First conversation I've had about it.

Action.

Podcast, go.

Thank you, Jameson. Well, no, this topic actually came up because we were discussing it, weren't we, the other day when we were with a friend of ours who... This is a bit of a... This is actually a very interesting subject, which I'm sure a lot of our female listeners will find interesting also. We were discussing... A friend of ours has a partner now who has a 12 year old son. And the reason he's in his early 30s, I guess, and the reason he-.

The guy who has a son.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's in his mid 30s and his son is about 10 or 11 years old. So the reason he has such a kind of grown up son at his age is because he accidentally got a woman pregnant when he was 18 or 19 years old. And as a result, when he was on his first date with our friend, our mutual friend, they had a conversation and he asked her outright, you know, do you want marriage and kids? And she said that she found it, she was very taken aback by it because she'd never really had a guy be so forthcoming with that question. And she'd found it intimidating and really refreshing in equal measures. And It sparked a conversation where you said something to me which really surprised me, which was that men, or a lot of men, are afraid of ending up with a woman who traps them by getting pregnant.

And we should say that that was why he was asking her the question. He wasn't saying, Do you want marriage and kids? Because he wanted More kids. He was saying, Do you want kids? Because I absolutely am not in a place.

He was saying, Do you want to trap me?

Well... -'Cause I've been trapped before. He was traumatized by the fact that someone had... who I think is probably an important detail of the story, she really did want kids, his ex. And it, look, whether or not it was intentional or not on her part, who knows? But the insinuation, certainly, from what we've heard, is that it was not so much of an accident for her.

And.

She very much wanted to be with him and stay with him.

And.

He essentially said to her, I don't want to be with you. But I will absolutely show up as a father, but I don't want us to be together. And that, I suppose, for many years had, you know, it's obviously been a huge part of his life to the extent that now when he met our friend, he was like, I need to know whether this is even on your mind. Because I can't do this again.

Which, it just for me, I found it really interesting and it sparked quite a long and deep conversation on the subject because I didn't really, I wasn't aware that that was a fear men had and I don't know if that means, because I don't know if that's because I've been living under a rock or...

Were you really not aware that that was a fear that men had?

No, I can't imagine. That's mad, that's crazy to me. For the most part, men are reluctant to wear protection, very careless with who they sleep with. So not really, no. I mean, I'm sure I've thought about the idea of, you know, and you hear stories where women have even kind of vocally said, oh, well, you know, if you get pregnant, it's not the end of the world, all these sorts of things. But I never really associated it with a male fear because of how cavalier majority of men are around sex. so I never really thought of it like that.

I don't you just put that down to men being idiots?

I mean, you have to be a real idiot to be terrified of something and then do absolutely everything.

Well, I can tell you right now.

Against that fear, you know, it's a little bit like I don't relate to.

The men you're talking about. So I I I. For me, the idea of being careless around sex has never. that there's never been a thing in my life because the fear was always so great.

I totally agree with you, Matt, but I do hear, as Audrey is saying, I hear from so many women who do say that men are cavalier, they don't want to wear protection. And I'm always stunned at how many men seem to adopt that approach. Oh, like, considering how many men are fearful of accidental pregnancy, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Exactly, it doesn't make it, like I was saying, it's as if, as you know, I'm scared of serial killers because of the show Dharma that we've been watching and it's gotten under my skin. But it's a little bit like me being as scared as I am of us being burgled and a house being broken into and then just leaving all the doors open.

Well, there's certainly a, I did a campaign for Trojan condoms. years back and part of the campaign, it was a safe sex campaign, and part of the campaign was exploring various demographics and cultures that were particularly bad with protection. And there, it tended to be heavily associated with cultures where the machismo culture was It was a big part of it. It was obviously correlated with education or lack of education. But I think with the kinds of men that you're talking about, there's often a blinded by the moment thing going on or a kind of blind drive to pleasure and, oh, it feels better without a condom, which always seemed like a really poor excuse to me. But that is a thing that people say all the time. And a kind of, oh, it won't happen to me, or a naivete about just how much it's going to affect their life if it does happen. I think maybe that's just an inability to forward plan and forward think, how is this going to affect my life? 18 years potentially if this goes the wrong way. So I think that there's a, an element of that to it for a lot of people. And honestly, like, the truth is, maybe there's just also, Jameson, I don't know what you think of this, but for some guys, there's just an element of, I don't have as much to lose. Like, I'm, I'm not, the calculation just doesn't factor in in the same way. And by the way, I don't think that that's true. Because I think if you're on the poverty ladder and you get someone pregnant, then it's going to be that much harder to get out of that situation. It's going to be that much harder to do the things that you need to do to climb out. But maybe that plays into it as well, the kind of feeling of, I just don't, you know, the stakes don't feel high.

You guys just remind me of like economists trying to figure out what's wrong with the economy or like, you know, our graphs were supposed to say that, like, people are supposed to take these things into account. And it's just like, no, like, it's an impulse control thing.

You're just like, holy God.

In the moment, we're not rational. It's just. And men, if you just look at it, it's like, yeah, they don't want to be trapped, but they also have massive lack of control over impulses compared to women.

And also men want to, you know, biologically probably want to procreate with as many women as possible. So I think there's probably like far less of a... There's almost your biological instinct and then your I have to pay child support instinct, which aren't necessarily always talking to each other.

And at a younger age, men are much more reckless.

Yeah, they're not doing the...

It's like the younger men drive more recklessly, do more reckless things with money, do more crazy decisions. Again, not a defense, but it is. I think it's maybe something you learn with age for some people.

You know, everything becomes a kind of calculation, right? Because you can't go for years without talking about it because the risk is too great. You, you could be wasting years of your life with someone who you only find out later on has completely different goals to you and isn't open to any of the same things you are.

So.

You say, okay, it can't be that you wait years, but we also kind of know instinctively that if you try to bring this stuff up on a first date, it might sound a little aggressive.

Unless you're a man, which apparently is fine.

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Unless you're a man.

Why is that?

Well, I'm just saying in terms of that.

No, but I think that's interesting to explore. Why is it not, do you actually think it's not, it doesn't feel aggressive if it's a man on a first date? Who says, do you want marriage and kids?

I think the control you have and the autonomy you have over your body as a woman and the fact that they can make the final decision. in terms of having a baby and having a child means that it doesn't feel as aggressive or as scary or sort of pressure inducing when a man's asking. That's probably my first gut reaction.

Isn't there also just an element of women expect men not to want commitment? And so when a guy asks about it, it feels attractive, whereas men expect women to want commitment. So when a woman asks about it, it feels like pressure.

Possibly. I do think a lot of men want kids quite openly though.

I'm not saying they don't. I'm just saying if you take kind of what we've been told culturally and what we feel is true, there's, you don't hear men saying, God, there's just none of these women want to commit. Whereas you will routinely hear women saying that. So doesn't that, isn't that what kind of, sort of adds to this idea that if a man says it, oh, he actually wants commitment. If a woman says it, yeesh, that seems like a lot for her to be saying that right now.

Depends on the man. For some men, it would seem intense and needy to a woman if he said he wanted commitment too early or too easily.

Well, that's undoubtedly true. That's undoubtedly true. But I just think that we, I'm trying to get, I suppose, to the core of this, because the answer about how to present the information of what you want is it means understanding where it's coming from in the first place. Obviously factoring into this as well is men's, the kind of stereotype of men going, Uh-oh, she's in her 30s, she's in a rush, and she's asking me about whether I want marriage and kids. Like, that feels... It's almost like whatever he's feeling about her in this moment, if he independently is just finding her attractive and enjoying his time with her, when she says that, he becomes distracted by the agenda. He becomes distracted by the, oh, no, I sense an agenda here, and that kind of takes him out of it.

You know what I think it is as well, and it always, as you all know, annoys me. But I think men have this, and to a certain extent it's true, but they have this feeling of an abundance of time. And so, you know, women do come into situations in their 30s if they are trying to have a baby with a person, they're not looking to do it on their own. They do come into those situations and they're, you know, they have a clock, they have a certain amount of time that needs to happen in. And so that's going to come with a certain energy. Even if it's not directly communicated, it might, it might do, you know, it's possible. Whereas I think when men say it, it's kind of like, I really want kids. Could be next year. Could be in 10 years, who knows? And there is a sort of a relaxed nature to it, which you would have if you were a 22 year old woman, which is attractive because it's sort of like there isn't that pressure, there isn't that timeline, there isn't also probably for men that feeling of, you know, oh, well, she really wants this, so I need to make damn sure that I'm ready to give it to her because I don't want to waste her time. If he's a decent guy, he'll also be thinking that.

Well, I think you have to think about it like a negotiating table. Like, if you come to the table and you need to get the deal done today, you lose power. If you come to the table and you're like, honestly, we can make a deal today if it's the right deal, but I can wait five years.

So.

You know, I can also see what else is going on out there.

Isn't there a key there?

Let me know what you're offering.

Isn't there a key thereof we can make the deal if you turn out to be the right person? Isn't that where your power comes from?

Is saying that's where the work that's where like a woman's power can come from. It's saying I'm in a rush.

Yeah, it's saying this is something I'm I want in my life, but it doesn't mean it's going to be you. Maybe, you know, you're just like I suppose I'm I'm here looking for the right person.

I think that's absolutely right. I think you're getting at something there, Stephen, that's really, really important, is that part of your power is still being willing to lose the wrong person instead of blind allegiance to this goal of having a child.

Absolutely.

However you get it. But. But you have to then ask yourself, is that honestly where you're at? Because if you. If that's not where you're at, if you're like, I need to get. I need to do this in the next two years, because that's my window, I think. and you've got someone right in front of you that you like. Are you, are you actually thinking in terms of you might pretend or it's like a kind of pretend. Oh, yeah, I could. If it's not you, it will be someone else or whatever. But in your head, you're going, but I have no time. There's no time. Like, I don't have time to just go and keep meeting somebody else like that. I'm just saying the reality, articulating the reality of what a people feel. They don't feel like they have time to keep swapping out over and over and over again. I just spent three months dating that, seeing this person and three months in the context of a lifetime doesn't feel like a lot, but three months in the context of two years left, when I don't want to have a baby with someone I met yesterday. So in order to have a baby with them, I want to have at least known them for a decent enough amount of time that I think that I've that we have the same values. This person is going to be a good parent. This person is actually going to be in my life five years from now. Like, this is, this is the reality of what people are faced with. And this is why people lose their negotiating power, as it were, because they're in front of someone trying to play it cool when internally they're saying, how can I possibly play it cool? When this needs to have happened yesterday.

Well, would there not be an argument then for being very confidently saying early on what you want, but you equally have to be strong enough to very quickly reject people if they express hesitancy or they say that isn't what they want. And you can be cool saying it, but you got to be also willing to walk away very fast.

I think that's, you're hitting the nail on the head, Stephen. I think that's absolutely right, which is why I'm playing this conversation out the way I am, because I think it's important for us to kind of not talk about this from some purely theoretical place, but actually play out what happens for people in real time, what happens in their heads while this is going on, what are the internal fears, even when they're trying to play it cool on the outside. and, and so, Stephen, what you said is, okay, you can have a communicate it in a cool way, but be ruthless in how you respond to the fact that they don't want what you want. So the, so then I go to, okay, so let's talk about what's a cool way to bring it up. Let's say I'm willing to walk away if this person doesn't want what I want, albeit with a good heart and not no malice, no anger, no resentment. Just, okay, cool. We're on different paths. That's okay. I'm gonna redirect my energy. But how do you bring it? When is the right time to bring it up? Is it date one? Is it date three? Is it date five? Is it week five? When is the right time to bring it up? And how exactly do you bring that up?

Well, the thing I want to start with with this is I think it's really important to identify what your relationship to that conversation is. Meaning, again, I think women out here, out there will agree that we are constantly told that our value lies in how aloof and cool and hard to get we can be. Now, we always talk about how that's, you know, a fantasy, and we shouldn't go with that, but I think owning the fact that we want to find love or owning the fact that we want to have children is something that can feel very counterintuitive because it can feel like we're directly lowering our value in front of people that whose value, you know, who we want to raise our value to. So I think the sort of starting point before deciding when to talk about it or how to talk about it is almost Deciding that the most important thing is to be able to get that information and have that communication with someone, not to come across a certain way. Do you know what I mean by that? And that's really difficult, I think.

Explain that for me.

Well, I think we have to just own the fact that this is what we want. own the fact that you- what does that look like? Well, I think it's going into the conversation already knowing that no matter what the outcome is, you're being true to what you want. You're being true to your needs. You're being true to the things that you really, you know that if you couldn't have would make you miserable. So your North Star is, I want to have a family. And so I don't care who that scares away in the process. Because me finding out whether the person in front of me is even up for that is the most important thing.

Isn't the start of this to pay very close attention? Look, there are indirect, semi-indirect ways to talk to someone early on about some of these things, right? You could ask them about whether they have a big family. You could ask them about whether they have siblings. Oh, are your siblings single? Are they married? No, they're married. They have kids. Oh, that's so nice. Do you get on with their kids? You do. You know, my nephews. Yeah, I love my nephews, blah, blah, blah. Does it make you, you know, does it make you excited to do that for yourself one day? Yeah, it does. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure I want that for myself. Like, that's a That's an indirect way in. And of course, it's also when you have conversations that are indirect like that, it gives you a chance to say, well, if he says, well, I don't know if I want that for myself. You can say, how come? What makes you feel like you're on a different path? And then he says, well, I just don't know if I ever really see that for myself. And you can say, oh, that's interesting. I know for me, that's so unbelievably exciting. The idea of having a family, you know, and meeting someone to do that with. Of course, I wouldn't want to do it with someone that I didn't feel was incredibly special to me. But to find someone that I want to do that with and do that, that feels like to me one of the most exciting things that one could do. That's an indirect way in to a very bold conversation and a very bold statement about yourself and how you feel about something. Notice that you're saying, you know, it would have to be with someone that I felt was incredibly special. And to me, you know, you're not saying that this is something that you would just do with anybody. And so you're creating a standard there. that someone would have to live up to. And you could even, by the way, position that in terms of other people. You can say, I know there are people I know in my life who have done it just because they want to do it. And for me, I know it has to be with someone that I feel is incredibly special to me, and I have an amazing bond with, and I think I would be an amazing team with. I couldn't just do that with anybody. And when you say that, you're asserting a standard at the same time as expressing a desire or a need.

What I think is important about connecting these two ideas that Audrey said, and Matt just gave a very practical example of, is I agree with Audrey that you should be very clear about why it is you want kids. I think that's one good starting point because I think a lot of people haven't really thought about it too much. They kind of just kind of feel intuitively like, yeah, I do want kids. Those other people that have kids, that seems sort of meaningful to me. And I think just try to spend a little bit more time with that for a minute and just think about why it is you want kids. Because if you can really connect to that, then suddenly you just kind of have that in your back pocket. Like, you know how you said, we're saying before, Audrey, about being, when you're told to be aloof or like seem kind of cool. I think the feeling of cool that that gives off is like, Yeah, yeah, my life is great already. I don't really need whatever this is on the first date. I'm not saying that's the best way to have a first date, but when you have that kind of grounding of my life is already great, I think if you kind of have already have that grounding of like, I'm gonna create a great family. Like, I really want to have that tribe. I want to have that great thing in my life in the future at some point. If you are certain about that, then you can kind of come into it without that sort of extra uncertainty of baggage of like, yeah, I do want kids. I only have a short amount of time to do it. I think so much of that waffling or that extra, there's a little topspin of extra anxiety that can come if we're not careful, or if you haven't just spent a little bit of more introspection with that question of like, what is it you want? Like, why do you want kids? Do you want kids because your sister has kids and you're a little bit jealous, or do you want kids because you sense that there's a really deep, meaningful future there that you want to be a part of or you want to have for yourself, which is.

I agree.

Which is independent of the person in front of you.

Right.

So you're always just assessing whether the person in front of you is aligned with that vision for not whether they're aligned with your excitement, whether their excitement about it is aligned with your excitement. you know, that do you feel excited about this for you in your life?

I have friends who, two friends in particular, who they've always said to me, oh, I know I'm gonna have kids and I know I'm gonna be a mom, like 100%. I just know I am. And I know that they've gone into relationships. They're both now in relationships, but in the past they've gone into relationships and they've very much just said that. you know, very openly. Absolutely, I know I'm going to be a mom, I'm going to have kids. And they're in their early 30s, so I suppose it's a different conversation to somebody who is, say, 40 years old. But it never scared anyone away because of the conviction they had and because they were never really afraid of scaring anyone away with that conviction, because they knew that they would only be scaring someone away who didn't want the same things as them, so. they wouldn't have seen that as a great loss. And, you know, women, we feel so often like things are taken out of our control when it comes to dating and families and all of these different things. And, you know, we have a disadvantage when it comes to our biology. And we have a disadvantage when it comes to kind of how forward and how certain we can be about someone without it coming across as desperate. You know, we have all of these different ways that I think culturally were held back. But it's important to remember that if you want something as meaningful as having a family, as you said, it's irrelevant whether that's with the person in front of you or by yourself or with a friend or with some other person you meet six months down the line, you're doing it for you and being able to take full control of that dream and that need is, I think, we keep saying step one, step one, but I think that's step one because then what will happen is you will just find the path. Towards that dream.

Could not agree more with that. I think it's elemental to this conversation is that idea of putting control back in your own hands. Because the truth is, those friends of yours who boldly say, I know I'm gonna be a mother, well, if they say, I know I'm gonna be a mother with a man I love, maybe. Maybe. I mean, there's plenty of people who say that very boldly at 25 and very boldly at 30. And by 35, they're a little more shaky on that. And then by 40, they're not saying that so loudly anymore, and they're starting to adjust their expectations of life. And, you know, and then some people, many people. who once boldly said that, look back and go, it never happened. And it's all very well saying, I'll just, if this person isn't right for me and they don't want it, then I'll change the person. Or what if the next person wastes three years of your life? And what if that happens again? And what if that happens again? And this is real life that happens to people. And the only true antidote to that is to not rely on another person. You have to start from a place of saying, if I want to guarantee one day that I'm going to be a mother, I'm going to remove the other person from the equation and say that no matter what I'm doing this, and then build up from there. It's like, what's the plan B or C or D or E? That no matter what this is happening, Okay, I can still, that's not a defeatist point of view. That's not a cynical point of view. That's a, let me build up from there. Okay, now what's Plan D? Okay, now what's Plan C? What's Plan B? What's Plan A? Okay, I've put set in place all the other things. So now let me reach for Plan A. And Plan A is I meet the love of my life. We have an amazing, happy family. We stay together and raise these beautiful children as a unit. But I know that having the child in the first place is the first position of importance, the primary position of importance. So you say, okay, what has to happen for me to guarantee that? And this is where, you know, I wish that it were cheap for everybody to freeze their eggs because I'm... And I said this earlier, I would be as bold as to say every single woman who has the means to freeze her eggs should freeze her eggs.

And what did Jameson say?

I said, that'd be an excellent idea.

There were a significant number of egg puns.

Of course there were.

Yeah, I don't even remember the first one anymore.

It was bad.

It was all bad.

But you... I strongly believe this, and I've been saying, anyone who knows me, Jameson knows this. Stephen knows this. This has been something I have been saying for years and years in one form or another. That if I would love it if every woman got to 21 and said, Let me freeze my eggs. So that go freeze your eggs and then go live. Then go live your life. And of course, I realize I'm saying this from without acknowledging the fact that I have acknowledged it, but I want to re-acknowledge the fact that I get it. Not everyone has the means to do that. And I wish that everyone did have the means to do it. I wish that it, and I, my true sincere hope is that it becomes affordable for more people in the years to come. And that people over time develop less and less of a stigma around doing this because I think that it's freedom. It's freedom to decide to say, you aren't treating me right, so I'm leaving. It's freedom to say to someone, you're not certain about me, so I'm not going to wait around for you. It's freedom to say to someone, you,'re too ambiguous on this issue and I know what I want. It's also freedom to say, I'm single and I feel relaxed. Because I've made peace with the fact that if I don't meet the right person in time for my biology, I am going to take this into my own hands. And I think every woman should be saying to herself, What's my age where I say, if I don't meet someone by this age, I'm going to do this. Because this is ultimately something I really want. And what my desire to have a child actually supersedes my desire to meet a man and have a traditional family unit. Because if you can answer those difficult questions, freedom lies on the other side of that. the fear of bringing things up to someone in the first place is a fear of our own situation.

And actually, I have a very good friend who always referenced my friends, but I have a very good friend who did freeze her eggs, and she found herself in a situation where a few months in, he wanted to move in together. And she was able to say, you know, it was only a few months in, so it wasn't a year in or whatnot, but she was able to say, well, I would love to take that next step with you. But, you know, for me, something that's really important is to have a family. And that's why I've actually, you know, Frozen my eggs. And I don't want to be doing that with someone unless they're on the same timeline as me, because that's important to me. And he said, you know, well, what's your timeline? She answered one to two years or whatever it was. And he said, okay. And we talk a lot about leverage, don't we? I think there's two different scenarios. There's a scenario where you're just trying to establish whether somebody is on the same page as you quite early on. And there's also the scenario where you can wait, you know, a few weeks or a couple of months and get to a point where somebody wants more from you. And then you say to them, well, in order for me to continue down this path, I need to know we're on the same page, which might be a safer way to do it. Because I do think sometimes going back to what I was saying, you know, if you too early on, if you communicate that this is what you really want, then perhaps A decent guy who doesn't know you well enough yet, to be sure, might just say, well, I don't know. Right now, I can't give you an answer, and I don't want to waste your time. So I set you free, which might not be, you know, that could be the end of a potentially amazing relationship. So there is a balance to strike there, I think.

Well, but what allows you to do what your friend did and and wait until it feels like a more significant kind of moment of graduation for the relationship is knowing you have a backup. When you don't have a backup, when you've got no plan, then you have to, you're constantly living with that hum of anxiety. Are you wasting my time? Was it a waste this week to invest in you? Is it a waste next month to invest in you? You're counting every month because there is no plan. There's just, if it's not you, it's gotta be somebody else and I'm already running out of time. So if it's gonna be somebody else, I need to meet that somebody else as soon as possible. And that's the energy that you're coming from. So to me, it's always about what's, how do I make sure that My dream comes true regardless.

Matthew, I have a friend who froze her eggs at about 29, even though she got married at 28. And she just didn't want to put pressure on him to have a kid right away into their marriage. Now, at 36, she just got divorced. they didn't have any kids. And so I asked her, like, well, what's the plan? And like you were saying, she's got the plan A. When she goes back into the dating world, she still wants to see if it can happen naturally, if it's gonna be organic and happen naturally with a guy who's interested in having a family. But at that negotiating table, she does have that in her back pocket. too, where it's like she's got the frozen eggs. So it just speaks to your point back to like evening out the playing field a little bit.

I love that story so much because if you take away that one component, which is that she decided to freeze her eggs at 28 or however old she was, she becomes a 36 year old woman who's gotten divorced, which was not in her plan, who now finds herself back in the dating world and is freaked out because her Plan A has not happened. And there is no Plan B. The Plan B is, oh, my God, do all of that again now and try to get back to the same place in time before time runs out. that's the reality. And instead, because she had done that thing to take it into her own hands, she can go, I'm actually going into the dating pool with personal power, not power over somebody, with personal power. And my leverage is not leverage over somebody else. My leverage is over the situation. I can walk away from this and still do this myself. And I realize there's all sorts of anything can happen, even with freezing your eggs. I get it. Nothing's a certain everything can be expensive and then not work out and whatever. But it's all about probabilities. It's about it's about stacking the odds in your favour and doing everything you can to make that happen.

So, Matt, if I was going to summarise practical takeaways here. You're saying, number one, have a backup plan.

Yep.

Perhaps by freezing.

Have the hard conversate. Number one, have the hard conversation with yourself before you have a hard conversation with anyone else. And the hard conversation with yourself is, what am I gonna do if it doesn't happen with somebody else? And when am I gonna do it by? And what have I put in place to make sure that's possible? So that's number one.

And how important really is this to.

Well, yeah. And that question. Forces you to answer that, 'cause if ultimately you arrive at the conclusion, I.

Don'T wanna do it unless it's with.

Somebody else, then it's not that important. It's not as important as doing it perfectly. Doing it in an imperfect way is not as important as doing it in a perfect way. So what's really important to you is the perfect blueprint, not simply having children. Okay.

And number two, be willing to have the conversation early. Don't be afraid of that.

Yes, and I think that the more you've done part one, the more you, when you do bring it up, it won't have the same intensity to it. There was a dating profile, and I want you to keep going, Steve, 'cause I like what you're doing, but there was a dating profile that Jameson and I came across that we literally put as a, like we upheld as a dating profile we thought was really good. And one of the questions, one of the things that this person said in her profile I think one of the prompts was what you most sad about with the future, something like that. And she was like, that my, or what makes you most stressed or something. I can't remember what the prompt was, but she said that my future children will never get to the joy of going to a Blockbuster video and renting a video in the store. And I thought that was such a clever way of saying, I want kids, but don't have them.

Yeah, I love that.

Right?

Yeah, that's really nice.

'Cause it shows that you're funny, it shows you have personality, and it shows.

That you want kids. It's not sort of cloak and dagger. You're precious about it. You're just like, I want kids, and.

I'm sad they're not gonna get to experience it. Exactly. Exactly. You're not holding it like baggage either, you know? Or it's just like it's so heavy. It's like to be able to throw it away. And so often in early dating, I kind of just don't want it to get to these heavy conversations. That's why I kind of like what you said earlier, Matt, about just, Like, oh, do you have any siblings? Like, do you like big families or are you like more of a small, intimate family? Just to pick their brain a little bit.

Like, leave it to them.

-Yeah. -To get open about that for yourself.

-Yeah, just exactly. -Just watch them squirm or not. -So, number one, have hard conversations with yourself first so that you have your plan B. Number two, and number one helps with this, don't be afraid to talk about.

It early on, but wear it lightly in conversation.

Yeah.

And I'd say number three, don't take the next steps with someone without them actually being invested on the same path you're on. So if it's moving in, if it's we're going to get married, don't take the next steps without knowing, are you on board for the whole plan here?

I think that's really great, Steve, and I think Audrey's story is a great case study for that of the friend who said, I'm not moving in with you unless you're on the same path as me in terms of wanting children. But I would even extend that or bring it forward to the earliest parts of dating, not where you're talking about kids, but where you're literally assessing based on what someone is showing you. If this person is a serious person, you know, if I. If I was in a rush. and I'm looking for serious and I'm dating with intention, whether it's to lead to a marriage or a family. I know that I'm looking for my life partner. Anyone who is fucking around would immediately, it wouldn't be someone I'm mad at. It would just be immediately someone who I'm like, whoop, take my energy away from this situation. Like if someone was being inconsistent in communication, if they seemed kind of all over the place, if there was no progression, if I felt like it was flat after a date, and even though I offered to give them a call this this week and say hi or I said, do you want to do something this weekend? If I just felt like they were lackluster and dragging their heels and tough to see again, that would be me. I wouldn't be going, you know, so what do I do to get this guy more engaged? I'd be going, this guy isn't engaged. This person's not intentional. Let me redirect my energy right now towards a better place and a better place right now. is anywhere but this guy who's occupying my attention.

And not just serious about you, that's basic and true, but also how are they in the rest of their life? Are they serious in the rest of their life? This is where it's one of those things where, you know, is he a little bit more settled in his career? Is he spending every weekend, like, partying with his friends? Or is he skipping the partying with the friends 'cause he's gotta go to his nephew's birthday, you know? Like, is he ready? This is like, if I had a sister, and she's 38 and she wants to date a guy who's like 36, I'd just be like, make sure you need to talk to him more directly than you would to another, to a 40 year old or whatever. So this is where there's another asymmetry with the age thing where it's just like, it's fine to date someone who's younger than you if you're in that spot, but you have to have that conversation even more seriously or sooner or they need to be showing you all those other signs at a bigger level.

I so agree with you. You have to find someone on your wavelength. I was talking to Claudine, our old friend, and she's got two kids now, and she was saying, it gets to a point where you even realize you have to make your new friends you have to make, and not just other people with kids, there are other people with kids the same age, because they become kind of the ones that get you. They get where you're at. They get what you're dealing with. You can have similar conversations. And that's true in every part of life. And you have to stop being so obsessed with attraction that you don't actually look for someone who's at the same place in life you are and on the same path. That's true of, and Jameson, you pointed it out. It's really true. That's true of a lot of age gaps in both directions. You just realize someone's not on the same path as you. They're not thinking the same way. Audrey and I went to the gym this morning at like 6:20 a.m.

He made me get up at 5:30. I would like everybody out there to understand what he puts me through. He made me get up at 5:30 in the morning. She loves you. He was so happy.

She gets out of the gym and she thanks me, Jameson. She gets out of the gym and she thanks me.

Well, obviously I'm always grateful that I.

Went, but... Well, that's all I need to know.

So tell us more about this abusive relationship.

Anyway, we were leaving the gym and we're driving past, like, our favorite juice spot, and Audrey's like, oh, is it open? Can we go there? And we parked and we pulled over and we got, like, you know, these stupid, expensive elixirs of life that... Is.

That that one on Beverly that I like?

It's a different... It's on La Cienega, this one. But, yes, it's the same chain. And we pulled over and we got a couple of these little things. And I just watched Audrey like shoot this, you know, lemon and black pepper, ginger, turmeric, spicy, hot, tiny drink that's supposed to cure everything in life. And she drank it and she was like, oh, you know that kind of like, oh, that was a tough one. And I just, it was funny because I looked at her and I was like, because the whole point was when we came out of the store, I was like, I can't believe how expensive those were. That was ridiculous.

And.

I said, you know, every time we come out of the gym, we should treat ourselves to this because it's expensive, right? These silly little tonics are expensive and it feels so indulgent, but like, this is a good reward for going to the gym at 6:20 a.m. And when she made that face when she drank it, I was like, this is how you know you're well into your 30s. And you're not, babe, you're not well into your 30s.

But you're, you know, I'm into my 30s.

You're into your 30s.

I love it.

Okay.

Oh, she's owning it.

Okay. So, yeah, but, you know, I was like, this is how you know you're well into your 30s when your treat for going to the gym is something that makes your face scrunch up in a ball. And isn't even actually enjoyable.

I thought you were just gonna make a little sort of movie montage, like a smash cut from a treat in your 20s. Yeah, we should do that double shot of tequila, making that face, and then, yeah, treat me to a double shot of...

But that's my point, James. That's exactly my point, James.

Shot of tequila at 7 a.m. Juice.

And a protein ball.

If you're leaving the gym and your treat is that little shot of ginger and someone else's treat is still the vodkas they did, you know, in the middle of the night. That you're on different paths probably right now. It's an over generalization, but if you sense someone early in dating is, oh, you're not a serious person. Oh, you're in a different, it's not that you don't have to have any judgment towards it, but you do have to have massive kind of focus on what you want and be ruthless about that and stop saying, oh, but we... I'm so attracted to him and we have such great chemistry. Life does not give a shit. It does not give a shit how much chemistry you have with someone. Your life plans are completely separate from that. And if the life plan is something that's on your mind every single day, Then the life plan is what you need to be thinking about. Not, but there's this really cute guy and I really get on with him and he's got these great qualities and so on. It doesn't, the, are your paths aligned? That's not to say you shouldn't have chemistry, but are your paths aligned and get really ruthless about getting out when they're not?

Yeah, and I think no one should feel shame about prioritizing that part of their life, if that's where you are. it's the stage you're in, feel fine like filling up your calendar with meeting new people and start discarding them quickly, but don't feel shame about it and do other sources than dating apps as well. There's, I've heard Scott Galloway talking about today how dating apps have these really skewed, messed up economics where like 80-90% of women are chasing 10% of men and there's all these men with lots of options. It's basically, I'm not against dating apps, they do really well for some people. I think people should use all sources, but don't use one. And I think, again, dating apps can skew towards a certain percentage of guys who are less serious. So use multiple sources, but use them all and feel free to prioritize this part of your life if that's what you care about.

And I also think just remember that the person who gets to have kids with you is really freaking lucky, you know? And the more you can communicate that, and the more you can communicate that what you're offering in terms of having a family with someone, being a mother, being a partner, has an enormous amount of value. The more you will attract like-minded people who are also looking for families, even if maybe it's two years earlier than they wanted it to. they'll go, well, you know what? I. It's a bit earlier than I thought, but I don't. I can't pass up on the opportunity of doing opportunity of doing it with you. And I think connecting to your value in the process is so important. You're not just on the back foot because you're a woman and you have a timeline. You have just as much power and you're just as valuable as anyone else in the situation, more so because you're going to carry it. There I said it. But, you know, all of these things are down to communication, down to the very subtle nuances of how we communicate our needs, how we come across when we're trying to communicate those needs. And I think there's a real kind of mastery to that, isn't there?

Well, great communication is about becoming competent in communication. It's about the ability to express ourselves well and to know how to say things in a way that makes the biggest impact. I want to just take this opportunity to remind everybody that if you haven't got it already, how to talk to men is one of our most powerful programs because it teaches you what competent communication looks like at all stages in the dating process, whether it's you just started speaking to someone from an app or it's being great on a date, or whether it's having those challenging conversations about the future with somebody. And if you haven't already, we are offering right now, as I said before, a free chapter to How to Talk to Men over at getthefreechapter.com so go check that out before you leave this episode. Go there now, getthefreechapter.com to download your free Chapter.

You know what I like about that, Matt? I was just thinking again about my friend who is going to go into the dating world again, and she is set up nicely at that negotiating table now, right? But it still comes down to like, she still has to have the conversations.

Yeah, she doesn't get to have it badly now.

There's no real shortcut. I mean, you can set yourself up nicely, but to actually have the words and know what to say in those situations and to stay in that high value position, That's priceless.

Could not agree more. We also want to know your thoughts on this episode. I'd love to know what situation you're in with the content that we've talked about today. Have you taken it into your own hands? Let us know. Tell us your story. Are you thinking about doing that? Have you been struggling to have those kinds of conversations with somebody? this episode has really helped, please tell us how do you relate to the things we've said today? And please let us know if anything we've said has helped or if you think we've missed anything. We would love to know because I think this is one of, in some ways, I think this might be the most important conversation we can be having. And if you encourage us to keep going with this, you know, we can do more of it. But Tell us how you think about it and tell us your story. Podcast@matthewhussie.com Lastly, I just want to say we have an email here that came into podcast@matthewhussie.com from Elise who says, hi James, I wanted to write in to say thank you. I was listening last week to How to Leave a Narcissist, one of our most popular episodes recently. And it really reminded me how far I've come from leaving a marriage that your show really accurately described. I've been listening to your show for over a year and it has really helped with the process of starting over. It was difficult at first, the thought of starting over in my late 30s, and especially the thought of dating again. I really questioned whether anyone would want to date me, a single mom of three. Your podcasts helped me change my mindset. build the life that I want and more recently start dating. I was nervous to date again, but I have for the most part really enjoyed the process. I'm at a point where I'm happy in my life, whether I have the person or not. It's been really fun going on dates on the nights I don't have my kids and meet new people. I felt in my twenties I was more concerned with whether men liked me. I'm now spending more time thinking about if I like them. Not every date has been a match, but I have enjoyed the dates and learned a lot about myself in the process. I have the same problems everyone else runs into, such as men that don't really want a relationship and men that I'm not compatible with. I'm now able to move on from these people that don't meet my needs with more confidence. I recently met someone that I seem more compatible with and have so much fun with. After a couple of weeks of dating, he even asked if I would be his girlfriend. Leaving a narcissistic slash toxic relationship is so difficult but so worth it in the end. I will continue listening as I learn so much from you guys and appreciate your perspectives and humor. Keep up the great work. One happy mom, Elise.

I love that.

Thank you so much, Elise. We really appreciate you writing in and we look forward to reading more emails in future episodes. We'll see you again. in the next episode of Love Life. Thank you, Jameson. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you, Audrey. Thank you, Matthew. Don't forget, while you're looking for the love you want, love the life you already have, because it is beautiful. We'll see you next time.

Thank you.

Foreign.