How To Stop Fear Of Abandonment Ruining Your Relationship

And someone finds us hard to be with, not for the original reason that we were afraid of, but for the patterns that we demonstrate when we're afraid. Welcome to the Love Life podcast where we help you find the love you want and love the life you already have. I am here with my wonderful co hosts, Steven Audrey Jameson, also known as Jams Today. Oh, my God, you're going to love today. There's so much good stuff coming up. We talk about retroactive jealousy. We talk about the negative patterns we have at the beginning of relationships where if we're afraid and we think that someone is going to potentially hurt us or leave us, we go into fight or flight response and sabotage the whole thing. And how do we stop doing that? We read your emails that you have sent in and we just have a good old time. Join us on the couch for this episode of Love Life.

Who's on a couch?

So, you know, tuck yourself in if you're in bed and listening to this, or strap yourself in if you're in the car listening to this.

Any others?

No, I think that's it.

Okay, good.

And let's get started with this episode.

I've started recording, so I just don't want to. Let's make sure we don't say anything embarrassing about Matt. Oh, but just before we start, can you just sort out Matt's girdle? Audrey? Yeah, just push that in.

Why would I need a girdle when my torso is underneath the table?

What's a girdle?

You wear it to stop to, like, keep all your belly in. It's like a corset for men.

Can we just get a quick adjustment on Matt's girdle? He's popped out.

Is that. Is a girdle just for men?

No, it could be for men or women.

But I thought that a girdle was like. Like loose skin on your neck.

I think that's chicken neck.

No, that's not.

That's a. That's a wattle.

A wattle.

Wattle, Yeah, a wattle. I think so. Like a. Is that right or did you make that up, Stephen? I feel like it was in any mobile anyway.

I'm not wearing a girdle. I've been exercising and I don't need one anymore.

All right, well, let's just leave it on for now. And we know you don't need it, but let's just leave it on for this one.

And me and Audrey, I'll have you know, went running on Sunday to a running club, didn't we? We did Stephen, you would have been proud. We were in a shoe shop buying hiking shoes. And the guy said, Tomorrow morning, 7am on a Sunday, there's a run taking place over in the park in Malibu, four miles. You guys can come. I think he sensed that we were cool.

Yeah, he was really surprised when we actually showed up. Yeah, you guys came.

I mean, how many people, honestly, could you invite 6pm on a Saturday to a 7am run the next day? And they would actually show.

You did the thing like. Like the film yes man, where you just. You say yes and actually go to stuff when people make offhand comments and, you know, like, he just shows up and he's like, I came. And they're like, oh, God, you came.

We were preparing for the how to Meet Men masterclass for love life, and we. One of the things inside it was, you know, say yes to more things and put yourself out there in more kind of organic ways. So we were just living and breathing the content that we were creating, really.

We've been saying yes quite a lot, Steven.

We'd be proud.

I mean, Audrey is mostly Audrey saying yes on my behalf. So we had dinner with friends last night. We got dinner with friends tonight as well. But last night, I sort of wake up at the beginning of my week, Steve, with just stuff in the diary.

That it would be.

I don't remember ever actually committing to.

I think Audrey moving. Audrey moving to LA as sort of scuppered you out of your ferrety little hobbit bachelor existence.

Takes one to know one, Steve, and.

Actually put you into the LA social scene at last.

We went to dinner last night and there's people there I didn't know. And she's told everyone that I call her a P.

Well, you shouldn't call me a pig then, should you?

It was out of context.

What could possibly be a context?

That was rude of her, wasn't it?

You don't. Why would you say that to strangers? They've got no context for that.

Well, let's. Let's take some time and let's just set this context.

Yeah, do we get. Do we get any context?

I sometimes call her a little pig, but I'm like, but it's like my little pig, you know, like, oh, you.

Know, every woman's fantasy.

Also, he does it when I'm eating or in the kitchen. He comes over to me.

Yeah, come on. I do it mostly at the end.

Of the night, after I've eaten.

After. It's always after. Everyone's always after they've eaten in Life. It's always after you've eaten in life.

That's true.

So I basically get in bed and I'm like, hey, I'm a little pig and it's cute. It's like how in. In Spanish people say, you know, like, gordo, gordita. Gordito means my little fatty.

So you. You get to decide. It's cute. You're like, I'm being sweet and adorable.

And she will.

I think deep down you'd be upset if I stopped.

Absolutely not.

You don't. You don't. You don't understand the inner workings of your mind like I do. I know that you would be upset if I stopped.

Could you imagine if somebody, like, wrote in with this problem and you were giving them advice like, my fiance won't stop calling me a little pig, even though I tell him I don't like it.

She doesn't.

The rant that Matt would go on to defend her honor.

Can I just say, she's never actually said she doesn't like it.

I don't like it. No, I don't mind.

So that's what we've been up to. It's an in joke. You know, it's like an in thing. It's like, Jameson, it's like you and I making raptor noises. So it's a. It's like our thing, isn't it?

Yeah.

Is this really our thing?

That's a relatable reference.

It's one of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are you going to give them an example of a raptor noise now?

So Jameson and I sort of anytime we enter the house because. Because Jameson basically has the code to my house. Well, not basically. I mean, for years he's had the code. So, you know, if there's anyone just coming into my house, I know it's Jameson wherever I am in the house. But the other way I know is that there is a raptor noise that he will make when he comes into the house. And I will do a raptor call back just to let him know that I know he's there. It's like a sort of Jurassic park reference. I don't know where it came from originally.

I think it actually. It came from when we would shoot a video and you were excited about it. Matt would just make this, like, sort of excited raptor noise after he was done. Like, oh, that's right. Oh, I got it wrapped.

I would do it if I did. Good work. Yeah, that's right. So you'd go. You do your one as you go through the door.

You do yours, Nat. You have to do your. You have to show the evolution, so you do yours. You just. I just. I called cut on the camera. We got it. We nailed it, Matt.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

That's as excited. So then I would come in in the morning, and it's like 6:00am and I, you know, I don't want to disturb anybody, so I just say.

And one time I thought a crow had gotten to that.

Oh, you did, didn't you? You actually did. You thought a crow had somehow gotten in, and it wasn't. It was just Jameson's gentle raptor.

Well, we all know that raptors evolved into birds, so I think that's what happened.

Right. So actually it was.

I was not wrong for thinking a crow had got into the house because Jameson, a crow.

No, it's okay. They're very intelligent.

We should start calling the podcast the Pig and the crow.

One. Kick you both off it. Yeah, we should.

Do. You know what I like? I like to start. It would do a little, like, prize, sort of some sort of prize competition thing where somewhere in the show there's a random raptical. And if you write in and tell us when it was in the show, you get something.

I think this is the worst context tongue contest idea I've ever heard.

No, listen, we'll just let us know. We'll know people are listening. If they send in or know that they actually listened, because we never put it in the first, like, 10 or 15 minutes, it might be buried at the end of the episode.

Why are we testing people? To make sure they're listening.

Do they win something?

Well, I will say this. I was testing people earlier when I, you know, on the previous episode, when I said leave a review, I was. There was a, you know, a bit of like, well, hang on, look, you know, we're here. We're out here doing this. Are you listening? Leave us a review on itunes. And I'll tell you this. Jennifer Hopkins passed the test even though she didn't successfully leave a review. But she did write in to podcast@matthewhussey.com saying, I'm sure this is a dumb question, but how do I leave a review? Just listened to the podcast and thought it was great.

Oh, yeah, lovely.

Well, Stephen, do you. Is there something I've been saying that's sort of misleading about how to leave a review?

No, just get. Get yourself to itunes, go and tap how many stars you want to give it, preferably five. And then you can put. Write a review. But that's on the itunes Podcast app.

If you're on your phone, then go to the podcast app, right?

Yes. Yeah. If you've got an iPhone.

So go over to the podcast. This is me telling everyone how yet again to compliment us, go, go over podcaster app on your phone, click on it, then search for Love life with Matthew Hussey and then when you get there, leave us a review.

Please do it. Because he looks really sad that there have been no reviews left since last week.

No, I'm doing a public service. I'm trying to help Jennifer Hopkins out. She's graciously said she wants to leave us a review and would like to know how.

You're right. He doesn't look sad at all. He's, he's very composed about the whole thing.

What topic we doing today? What's this? What's this? What's the, what's the subject matter of today?

Well, Matt, we're going to talk about fear of abandonment. We have a question that got sent in from Tara and she says after a few relationships.

Well, hang on, hang on, let's. Before you do that, Stephen, could I just. Would you mind if I just let everyone know a little bit about something special going on right now?

I'd love it if you did.

Did you know, Stephen, that until August 7th, there is a summer self care special on the virtual retreat?

Go on. What's that, Matt?

Well, what we want is for everyone to give themselves the gift of self care this summer. But do you know what's a bit of a farce?

Go on.

The idea of self care being some sort of lavender bubble bath.

Right. Because you know, I do have several baths sometimes in a day.

Right. And if that counts as self care, then I mean, you are excelling at self care.

It's just hygiene. It's just hygiene.

I don't think that quite cuts it. Self care is not simply running yourself a bubble bath, Stephen. It's not just pouring your glass of wine or opening a tangerine while you're in that hot soapy water. It's not booking yourself a massage, although that might be a nice thing to do. That sort of stuff is, you know, it's the momentary pleasures of doing something nice for yourself. But that doesn't move the needle in terms of self growth. Real self care is about taking the necessary action to give you a greater long term happiness and fulfillment. Which is why the virtual retreat in November is the ultimate act of self care. Because we are all, all four of us, Jameson, Audrey, Steven, me going to be spending three days with you with Three days of immersion coaching for your whole life. And it's not a love life retreat, it's a life retreat. And the great news, Stephen, is that until August 7th, there's a summer self care special ticket that is available that gives you $100 off of the virtual retreat and three special bonuses. Now, one of them is my daily momentum formula where I give you all of the nerdy little things that I do to make the most of my day. Audrey's already laughing because this sort of stuff she makes fun of me for, but it's absolutely life changing. So that is going to be the first thing you get. And the great thing is you get that on signing up. The second thing you get is Momentum week. This is a ticket, a free ticket to a week where we're going to actually be getting together and working for an hour every day on the very things that we've been procrastinating. So this is a very, very valuable week long system of spending an hour a day focusing on pure productivity, together on the things we've been putting off. And lastly, you get a special Q and A with me just before the retreat itself so that you can ask me any questions about how to get the most out of the program. And then of course, on top of that, you have your virtual retreat ticket. All of that is available@mhvirtualretreat.com and is only available until August 7th. This is a reduced price. It's the best price you'll get between now and the event. We really believe in this. That's why you're hearing about it and not hearing about a commercial for mattresses or, you know, shirts. We're talking about something we really believe in and it's coming up. And the tickets are available now@mhvirtualretreat.com well, I wanted to start on a little email review, Stephen, before we get into the question for today. This is from Bettina who says, hi, Matt, Stephen and team. I'm at work at the moment listening to the episode three mistakes that stop you getting to commitment of the podcast. And I am loving having Audrey giving her opinion and point of view as a woman. At some point, when Matt discusses someone living in another country and how easy it is to say come see me, I loved how Audrey speaks up and defends her point of view. I would definitely be the person happy to pack my bags and fly to a country to see someone just for the fun experience. I love to travel and see different cultures and languages. So it's a combination of two exciting things. For me. Congratulations on the engagement, Matt and Audrey. And more space for Audrey in the podcast, please. You go girl. Regards, Bettina.

Thanks Bettina. That's such a lovely thing to send in. Thank you so much.

That was nice.

Thank you, Bettina.

I love this.

Well, Stephen, what was the question that was written in today by tara to podcasthewhussey.com which of course is the email address for anyone who wants to send us a story, anything that you've experienced listening to the podcast, just any sort of general commentary ribbing any of us here on the podcast you can send in podcastathewhussey.com what does Tara have to say? Steven?

So Tara says after a few relationships I am now starting to realize the common factor in all the relationships is me. How do you become more self aware of your own patterns and break them? I have discovered I have this fear of abandonment. So when things get difficult sometimes my first instinct is to run and have one foot out the door. I think it's self protection help.

Can you, Jameson, do you relate to that at all or have you never had that? Because I certainly do relate to that.

No, I totally relate to that. I mean what part are you, are you questioning, like having patterns or just.

The idea of when you get scared, when you think that someone might be doing something that threatens you or the relationship or when you, when you're kind of, when you get triggered and immediately think, oh, I might get hurt here. There's that, that flight reflex.

Yeah. 100 I think two. I guess there's two sides of it. There's probably the, the person that is terrified of rejection so they want to, they want to just leave before they get rejected. And then there's the other type. I could just think of archetypes of friends of mine that just, they're really good at being alone and so they'll just leave out of a certain kind of like laziness or not wanting to try.

So like you mean as soon as there's any kind of inconvenience, then it's like, oh, I can't do, I can't be dealing with this.

Yeah. So you probably caught me just like looking like I was thinking about this because I was trying to decide. Yeah. Is there a, is there a, a distinct archetype that does this or is there a couple different types?

That's interesting.

Do this.

Yeah, that's interesting. I, Elaine de Botton talks about the idea that when someone does something you don't like in a dating or relationship context. Well, I suppose especially in a Relationship context. When someone does something you don't like, there's an immediate projecting into the future of what makes us so angry or what makes us so upset. What makes us react so strongly is not just this thing in the moment. It's the thought of every time this is going to come up in your relationship and projecting that into the future in a catastrophic way. Which leads you not to thinking, huh, that person did a thing I don't like today, but instead to the conclusion, you've ruined my life.

Yeah, that's whatever they do. I think more.

You're more on that side.

Yeah, yeah. Where it's like, yeah. Because we've talked about how important storytelling is in a, early in a relationship because the, you can't help but just kind of project. Your brain is like this computer algorithm that's just like, oh, I'm going to project into the future. What will this be like? What will this reality be like years from now? And I feel like I'm very good at doing that. But then there's a negative side to that where it's like one little fight. You project that into the future and it's like, well, it's not that. It's not that you got mad at me for leaving a dish in the sink. It's that now I feel like you're gonna be mad at me for everything, all the time, forever, to infinity.

Yes. Well, so that's one type. The idea that, you know, I'm immediately looking at all of the ways this could affect me negatively in the future. And then there's Tara, who is saying that this is based in a fear of abandonment. So when she feels threatened in any way, like she could get hurt, she's the one who, she's like, well, I'm gonna jump first. You're not gonna get there before me. I'm gonna leave you before you have the chance to hurt me.

Yeah. I think there's a spark of fear and a feeling of like, oh God, they're, they're suddenly starting to feel some cracks or they're, they're suddenly not happy. And there can be a mix of ego in with that as well. Where that self protection thing does come and says, like, well, I, I, I'm not gonna stand around wait for you to like get sick of me or for this to happen. Like, I'm, I'm getting out. Like, you don't like it, I'm out of here. And, and there is, that is self protection and fear coming from ego as well.

Exactly. And it, and it produces that fear produces extreme reactions, Right? And it can happen both in a romantic context, it can happen in a work context. You know, you can have someone who criticizes you at work, your boss may say something to you, and you immediately go into a fight or flight response, and it comes out as anger. Right? The anger is, how dare you criticize me for this? I do so much, I work so hard, whatever it might be, that it comes out in you then attacking the other person. It might come out in blame, it might come out. But what all of that anger is, is fear. There's a fear of. I'm saying this, of course, in the case of the person that we're. The kind of person we're talking about now. The fear is, I'm. You're going to decide that I'm not good enough, you're going to fire me. And I'm already projecting to that future and my insecurity about that, my fear about that is leading me to this, this terrified place. And it's coming out right now as anger or defensiveness. And the same is true in a relationship we, we had. As an aside, I want to come on to the idea of people who are worried about being abandoned in relationships. But we, we had a dinner last night with a friend of ours who is movie director, and he said, Jameson, you'll, you'll find this interesting. I think he said, actors, when they tend. It tends to be when they're mad on set and they yell at people when they get angry. Because we've all seen the kind of tirades that actors can go on or the footage of someone going crazy or, you know, the, the audio of an actor losing his mind on set. Somebody. What he said is whenever an actor does that, what's. What's actually happening is he's scared or she's scared. It comes from fear. Fear of I'm in a bad movie, or you know the movie's going to be bad, or this script is bad and I'm going to end up looking bad. I don't look good, I look old, this other actor is doing better than me that I'm working with, and I shouldn't have signed up to this project because it's not going well, or I can't trust this director and it comes out as anger. But what it really is fear in that moment. And what he said is what he learned when he learned it was coming from fear instead of just, I'm dealing with an. He decided the number one thing he can do is make them feel safe. If he can make them feel safe, he'll solve that problem. But to, to know that he has to understand that it's coming from a place of fear. And I think that that's a very interesting thing to apply to relationships in general. How often is someone angry because they're afraid and therefore how often is the solution to make them feel safe in that moment? But to rewind for a moment. We've got Tara here. She says, when I get scared that I'm going to be abandoned, I leave first. So what is the solution to that, Audrey? What do you think that, that instinct you get, that overwhelming fear that comes up and that fear makes you want to jump the gun and be like, well, I'm not going to allow this to play out and be the fool here and get trampled. I'm going to get out before that can happen to me. What do you think people should be doing in that moment? Because of course some people might say, well, I'm, you know, that saved me a lot. You know, that saved me a lot of pain. And in a lot of cases my instincts proved to be right. I was right that that person was going to abandon me. I was right that that person was on their way out in some way or criticized me too much and wasn't accepting me. So there's that battle, isn't there, between the instinct that is protecting us that sometimes has served us well, and the knowledge, the self awareness that Tara has that that instinct can go too far and it can make her take the escape parachute too soon.

Yeah, I suspect we all, we can all talk ourselves into believing our relationship's gonna fail because we only see what we see in terms of our partners. We only know what they tell us. We only see how they behave towards us. We don't know about 90 of what goes on in their brain when they're not speaking it out loud. So to a certain extent, I think we're always, we can always talk ourselves into thinking that we're not safe. We can always talk ourselves into thinking somebody could leave us. But for me, fear of abandonment feels very, very intimately linked to sort of, you know, a non secure attachment to other people. And I suspect, I don't know much about it, but I suspect there's probably different types of fears of abandonment because for instance, the idea of kind of running away, I, I personally don't exactly relate to, but I definitely know that I worry about people disappearing from my life, leaving me, people I love or who have come to rely on leaving me. That's something that I do think about. And you can drive yourself crazy thinking about it, because people can leave and things happen.

The really tough thing is that when we are in an anxious mindset or our nature trends towards that kind of anxiety and fear of being left of, it's gonna fail, and I'm not gonna be here when it does. I'm gonna leave now. We tend to have extreme reactions to things, right? If you are speaking in terms of attachment styles, it can produce an extreme anxious reaction and it can produce an extreme avoidant reaction. In a sense, the. The running away or the ending it prematurely is an extreme avoidant response to the situation. I'm gonna leave you before you can leave me.

I had a friend who once said to me, and it kind of reminds me of this, and in a way, it's. She said to me, I never want to be the one they got over. I'd rather be the one that got away. Well, I think she phrased it as. She said, I always want to be the one that got away, never the one they got over.

Now, the problem with that statement is that you're always the loser.

Well, exactly.

It's like, either way, you don't end up with somebody. But at least I have my pride, you know, like, that's. That's the. That's what's kind of messed up about that idea is that it values pride over everything else.

Well, I think it's interesting because when she was telling me about it, it was coming from a place of, you know, that's always been my mentality. And as a result, I've come out relatively unscathed in terms of relationships. And I've been able to say that I was the one who always called it and whatnot, but I'm no closer to actually being in a long and happy and successful relationship. And she was actually working sort of to. To be more vulnerable and to make herself more vulnerable in a relationship in order to get over this idea that she somehow needed to control what the outcome is. Now, I think what's really difficult for a lot of people is we really feel like if we are left or abandoned or like, not abandoned, but are left, and it triggers that kind of fear of abandonment or are rejected. We really, really worry about how much that's going to affect us. And we really think, you know, will I ever be able to get over this? Even though you logically think that of course you will eventually. You don't necessarily want to spend a year of your life feeling terrible. So I can understand it.

Yeah, but that's the thing. Right. It's all about your relationship with rejection and what that means and the meaning you ascribe to that. Yeah. There's a saying by. There's a quote by Viktor Frankl, who wrote man's search for meaning. And he said, between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is the power to choose our response, and in our response lies our growth and freedom. And, like, when you don't allow. If you just go. Stimulus, response, trigger. Protect myself. Get the power. Okay, you're not gonna leave me. Screw this. I'm out. You've.

You.

It's fear. It's. I'm not even gonna sit in this space and figure out what's actually going on here in case it means the worst.

Mm.

But sometimes it's okay. If it does mean the worst, maybe that's okay. And it might be. It might just mean that, okay, maybe we don't figure this out and it means that we're wrong for each other and that's all right. Or this person decides something, that's okay. But. But you are not allowing the space because that person might be like, what the hell? Why did you go crazy over that one tiny argument? Why did you suddenly, like, bolt? Just because I brought up a problem or I brought up something that was bothering me and you bolt?

Or.

Whereas they might have been like, I just wanted to solve a problem that was. Something was bugging me or something was an issue. And I. I know I've had that response in the past where I've been like, self protection mode, and I've been like, well, you're going to criticize me? Like, I. You know, and I know. I know now that that can be triggered in myself and the space. It's incumbent on me to hold that space and say, okay, let's just sit and actually talk about what's going on here, and maybe we can actually just figure this out calmly. But you. If you're just terrified of the rejection, you won't allow that space.

I'm curious. How would you. How would you make someone not scared of that rejection? Because I think it's a very. It's almost. You could argue it's a kind of trauma response probably a lot of the time. And so, you know, that space is all well and good that you mentioned, Stephen, but it's a really hard thing to hold when you're feeling really activated in something. And it's kind of. Yeah, it's just triggering all of your. All of your trauma, all of the things that you're most scared of. And, you know, you do sort of step into that fight or flight mode. I think. How would you advise someone to actually hold space for that emotion in order to process it and move forward?

Well, the reason that we do things consciously that are scary or difficult, the reason that I decided to go to Poland and do these freezing challenges in the snow, the. With Wim Hof. The reason that someone chooses to run a marathon, the reason someone gets up on stage to do their first standup set even though their heart is beating out of their chest. People choose these things because they're difficult and because they hope by doing that to expand their capacity for these different types of situations and to start to tame their fear of these things. I know that by pushing myself to overcome this thing, I actually have a shot at expanding myself, at creating a new reference point for what I am capable of, for getting a new experience in life. And it's why we get to look back to a younger version of ourselves. If we have chosen to live and participate in difficult and uncomfortable experiences in life, is why we get to look back at a younger version of ourself and go, look how far I've come. And I think that one of the difficult things is that when it comes to relationships, we. We see it almost as a. A burden or a, you know, oh, this is just straight up trauma that I've. You know, this kind of situation makes me freak out and run away. But I actually think we might benefit from starting to see these moments the same way that we would choose. The same way that we would see chosen pain. Chose. The gym is chosen pain. A marathon is chosen pain. Getting up on stage when you're terrified of it, of being in front of an audience is chosen pain. Chosen discomfort. Well, we can actually. And all of those things, by the way, grow us. All of those things make us bigger as people. So we could look into. Look at our relationships and those moments in dating as wonderful moments to choose discomfort. This can be actually in the same way that going to the gym and working out is chosen pain. This can be chosen pain. I can. And I'm not talking about, you know, no one hopefully needs me to say, I'm not talking about this as a reason to stay in an abusive relationship or anything like that, but when it comes to someone just said something that made me feel, it triggered me, because it made me worried they're gonna leave me or that I'm not enough or, you know, it freaked me out. And not because they did anything terribly wrong, but just because it made me scared. That's a moment where we can say to ourselves, okay, I can choose now to use this as a chance to get bigger. That doesn't mean I know how this is going to go. My instincts might be right. It might be that this person is, you know, that there is a sense in which this person. It might be that this person ends up not wanting to be with me. But I don't have enough information for that yet. I just don't know. And if I don't have enough information about that yet, I'm going to choose a path that is uncommon. For me, my well trod path is fight or flight. And the unfortunate thing about both of those paths, those extreme reactions, is that they actually start to manipulate the result. That's what's really sad and damaging about them is that they, it's no longer a fair experiment because they actually tamper with the result. Like you said, Stephen, if I, out of fear, give you the silent treatment for the next three days, that might affect how much you want to be with me, not because of the original thing that you said or criticized or gave some feedback on and said, hey, you know, I'm feeling this, or I'm not sure about whatever. That's not the thing that made you truly question the situation. But me going silent for three days does. That's actually the thing that makes you go, whoa. I. This is unpredictable. This is not a healthy pattern that I want to engage in in a relationship. This is making me feel like I have to tread on eggshells in even saying anything. And that's not the kind of relationship I want to be in is where I have to tread on eggshells. And the same is true. If you say something to someone and all of a sudden they come at you in either a desperate way or a really angry way, then it has the same effect. So that's where we actually begin to self sabotage. And the very thing we're afraid of becomes self fulfilling and someone finds us hard to be with not for the original reason that we were afraid of, but for the patterns that we demonstrate when we're afraid. So that, that we have to say, those common paths that I take actually are hurting me more than the thing that I'm afraid of. The alternative is for me to take the uncommon path, the path that is not well trodden for me, which is, let me, let me learn more. Let me actually have the kinds of conversations that help me discover more, discover more about who this person is, about how they feel about me about where this is going. And. And those conversations, by the way, can include vulnerability. They can even include admitting that you're scared. But admitting that you're scared is very different from acting out. One is vulnerability. The other is a destructive pattern. And the brave thing to do is to be vulnerable instead of be destructive. Through vulnerability, you'll start to reveal if someone could actually be right for you. By being destructive, you just tear down something in a way that means you'll never really know.

I wrote down tame your fear, because I think that's so powerful when you said that. And to go one layer deeper in analyzing the psychology of it, I think what we're doing is we're trying to control the situation in order to quieten our fear. And even if the outcome is the exact outcome, we don't want to happen. At least we're in control of it. And we can orchestrate it in a way that's on our terms. Right. But we do it at the detriment of absolutely everything, including finding a happy relationship. And because I love what you said about taming your fear, because I think when you can really connect to the fact that that's where that's coming from, which is a place of fear, the next step is to feel brave enough to, as you say, communicate that fear and say, I want to run away right now because I feel scared that you're going to leave me. Now, that's really brave. That's a really hard thing to do. But as you rightly say, the right person will make you feel safe, and that will begin to heal.

And I. And I would say that Tatara. And to anyone out there who relates to what Tara said, just going from running away because you're scared to telling someone that you feel like running away because you're scared is a massive sign of growth and evolution. If you could just make that transition, you will change the nature of your relationships.

That was a huge change for me. And I don't know when this happened, but when I got comfortable in relationships, voicing things that I had done before when I was like, hey, I. I Sometimes when this happens, I respond like this. And it may. It's making me feel worried, anxious, trapped, you know, defensive, even just vocalizing that, speaking it out, it's like, oh, like it's out there. Like, clarity. That. That's something in my early 20s I would have never done because I would have just felt it, felt the animalistic fear and been like, right, this is what I'm gonna do in response. But not actually Just calmly spoken out. Here's what I'm feeling right now.

But yeah, it's. It's. It's about not feeding the fear, right? Instead of feeding the fear, you have to tame the fear. Running away is feeding the fear. Acting on impulse of the emotion is actually just reinforcing that fear, but doing something a little bit different and recognizing why you feel the way that you do and just really connecting to the fact that you do feel it. That's. That's got to be, as you say, just a couple of steps towards taming it.

And what I like about that construct that you made is it works for all kinds of patterns because a lot of per. It's like you don't. You don't just stay because that's taming the fear. Because your pattern might be that you stay too long. That might be someone's pattern from. From anxious attachment style, right? They're just gonna. Very straightforwardly, I'm gonna put up with whatever because I'm afraid to be alone. But with Tara, she's asking, you know, what do you do when you recognize this pattern? And. And you're absolutely right. You just recognize it and you speak it. And that is truly a zero to one level of progress right there. Because once you could do that, and it doesn't actually, it's just so much easier said than done. Like, because you can still. I'll still in my relationship have so much difficulty. Just. It's just so easy to skip that part where you just. You just say, like, this is making me feel like this instead of like you're doing that, you know, and it's just like, if you can just find your pattern and just try. Just try to break it and keep. Can keep iterating that process of keeping breaking your pattern, then I think you'll get. You'll get some growth.

And the reward is that you will actually see a different result. It. It's not to say that you're always guaranteed the result you want, but you will see a different result than you're used to. And that ends up becoming a new reference point because you realize a different result is possible. And you realize, oh, wow, that that did something interesting. It's almost like you become a kind of experimenter because you're like that. That's interesting. I actually voiced that. And. And as a result, we had a really interesting and productive conversation. As a result, I learned more about this person. As a result, I feel more open. You know, there's a result there that you get that you are not Used to. Because you've been doing the same thing for so long that you had lost any awareness that a different result existed or that a different way of being existed. And I think that there is something truly exhilarating that's a really underrated exhilaration. But there's a real exhilaration in doing something different and seeing different things happen as a result. Because it kind of opens up the world to you because you realize how many other ways of experiencing life are there than the one that I've gotten so used to in my life? It's the beginning of kind of. Of everything being on the table in terms of just how much. How many different ways to exist there are. And. And the other thing I'll say, just to wrap this part up is that that kind of openness also gives someone a chance to truly know you and understand you and not misinterpret you. Because when we. I don't think any of us truly realize the extent to which we are confusing. When we have extreme responses to things when either we get extremely angry or when we get extremely afraid and run away or extremely defensive or we go on the attack, I think we kind of intuitively think people understand more about where it's coming from with us than they do. So we forget that all they're seeing is a. It's. It's like the actors. All you're seeing is an angry. That's. That's all you're seeing in that moment. But you're not.

True.

You're not actually. And that person may go, you know. No, they must understand that it's coming from insecurity. But of course, people. People actually don't. They don't. There's a. You know, I've said before, there's that moment in Catch Me if youf can where DiCaprio, Frank Abagnale Jr. Is speaking to the agent. I forget his name, but Tom Hanks is character.

Hamratty.

Hanratty. Agent Hamratty. And he. He says to him, people only know what you tell them. And that line is so unbelievably true for relationships is that when you tell someone I'm afraid, it's like a pressure valve on the whole situation because someone goes, wait, what? And you go, I'm afraid. And that's why I'm acting like this right now. It's like it lets all the air out of the balloon. And someone then goes, you're afraid? What are you afraid of? I'm afraid that you're gonna leave. And then someone's like, what? Wait, whoa. What? I'm gonna leave? And then. And it's like, now you have this. You have the real conversation that no one was having, but no one even knew. The other person didn't even know that there was this other conversation happening. They just know that you're angry, and then they're pissed at you for being angry or that you just left, and then they're pissed at you for being stubborn, but they don't know. People don't know what you don't tell them. And so that kind of honesty is also a way of giving someone else a blueprint for your mind and who you are, which, granted, is a very vulnerable thing to do and can be dangerous, by the way, in the wrong hands, especially if we don't know how to have boundaries if things start really going south. But giving someone that access to our mind is also the only. Is the only way to have a real relationship. You don't have intimacy ultimately if you don't do that. And the price of admission for an amazing relationship is that kind of intimacy that comes from that kind of vulnerability.

Mm.

Yeah.

And also, I think just as a really minor point, it's never underestimating how your partner is themselves being triggered. So it's almost, you know, Exactly. You. You get triggered by something, so you react in a way that becomes more distant, and then they're very likely to be triggered by the fact you're being distant. And so for all you know, all of their fears of abandonment and things are coming through in the way that you're responding. So you become. Becomes a little bit kind of meta.

Yeah.

And. And it takes one person to almost go, this isn't anything to do with you. It's to do with me. And then suddenly they no longer feel unsafe themselves, and they have suddenly got more bandwidth to make you feel safe and to make sure you feel okay.

Before we continue with the show, I just want to make sure that everybody has gone over to the website howtogettheguide.com to use the new tool on the homepage where you can enter your name. Tell this tool the biggest challenge you're having in your love life right now, and it will then recommend you the best solution I have to your love life challenge right now. So if you haven't already, go over to howtogetheguy.com on the homepage. You'll see it says, start here, and then it takes you through a process to get your customized solution. Go check that out now. HowToGetTheGuy.com and get your solution to help you in your love life.

I want to read an email that got written in by a lovely woman called Samantha and I found her email so vulnerable and relatable. And yeah, I think you guys will enjoy it too. So she said Dear Love Life Team, thank you for posting some of your rewind episodes this summer, particularly the get too obsessed when you like someone episode. It could not have come at a more perfect time. I signed up to a dating app this past week after a long hiatus and sadly was immediately reminded that I do just this. I allow my imagination to run wild even after a first few messages have been exchanged, which I'm aware helps no one and only sets me up for disappointment and potentially missing out on something that could be real. Thank you for the tip of will see. I'm putting that in my phone as a persistent notification right now. Thank you for all the great work you do s in Chicago. I love that she put it as a notification in her phone to just keep reminding her herself. That's really great not to get carried away because. Because we all do. And it's really nice. She's tricking her mind. Her more sort of evolved and conscious mind is reminding her less evolved mind to. To, you know.

Do you want to remind everyone about the Wolsey concept?

I was. Well, I was going to say let's just remind everyone of that episode. What was, what episode was she referring to?

The episode is called get too obsessed when you like someone, question mark. And it's all about kind of when you are in very early stages of dating and you get really carried away and you kind of. You obsess as to whether or not somebody likes you. It can feel like a huge amount of time in between messages if they don't text you. And yeah, it's a great episode. I think it was about. It's about two months old, three months old.

So that would have put it back in somewhere around may probably. Okay, we need to start. We're going to start numbering episodes for you guys so that you can find them more easily.

Somebody called Brittany wrote into us also, and she was writing in relation to a past episode when we spoke about jealousy and exes and all of that stuff. And she said that what we were talking about is actually called retroactive jealousy and that we feel when we feel jealous and insecure about our partner's past relationships. Social media makes it super easy to stalk exes and see what they're like. I have felt insecure when former girlfriends seem more outgoing and Social than me, sexier, with larger breasts. Also better careers. And I always look. She says, I always look at boobs. That's a major one. But I think that's quite interesting because I definitely think that women compare themselves to exes, and I'm sure men compare themselves to exes as well. But it's just an interesting thing that. It's called retroactive jealousy. And it's interesting to hear that, you know, lots of people suffer with that.

I sometimes think, you know, because we all relate to how we may suffer from that in our lives, we might take our current partner and have some imaginary picture of people from their past that we compare ourselves to. I always think there's something funny about the fact that most of us never consider how we're a ghost in somebody else's life. Like, how are we the phantom enemy?

Yeah.

In the. In the lives of people we've never even met.

Yeah.

Like, think about it for a moment. Who, you know, who that you've ever dated is now dating someone who. You've become this. This, you know, foreboding, terrifying figure to that they're like, oh, but, you know, so wait, what did. What. What does he do for a living? Or who is he? Or what's his thing? And, you know, they gave your ex. Gave them just enough information for them to, you know, emotionally torture themselves.

I think it's a really relatable thing she said. And I think what's really interesting about it is we can spend an enormous amount of time comparing ourselves to people and static images on social media and the idea of what people were. But the reality that people. That person with the great boobs and whatever, she. If you met her and you spent a decent amount of time with her, she would just become another person. She probably isn't that great. And there's probably far less to feel insecure about than you feel like there is when you look at her Instagram. And I think that's a really. It's something that we have to be quite sober about because we can drive ourselves crazy otherwise. We've just the sort of idea of what someone is, but ultimately they are just another person.

There's a. There's a but, you know, there's that great moment in forgetting Sarah Marshall where the. What's his name? The main dude in that. Not Russell Brand, but the guy who gets his heart broken.

Jason.

Jason.

Jason Siegel. You know, where he's. He. The ex. He's the ex who got his heart broken.

Yeah.

And Russell Brand is the guy that. That got the girl and not the.

Guy you want to date your ex.

Not the guy you want dating your ex.

All this snow, it's like Russell Brand on steroids. All the snow.

But it's just this great moment where he's. He meets older Snow, Russell Brand's character, out on the water, surfing. And oldest Snow is just kind of just chill, relaxed, confident guy who's, you know, making cool references. And there's just a moment where Jason Seagull is it. He just goes, fuck your cool. And it's like a moment where he's. It's like he wants it to be the moment where he realizes, oh, you're a complete tool. And instead, it's like a moment where it just. He's almost like, I get it. I get it. You know, I get why she'd want to be with you. And, of course, as the movie unfolds, you begin to realize that Aldous Snow has a whole bunch of issues of his own. And, you know, is not he even. He is not the. You know, is not the intimidating character that kind of. He's once thought to be, in the sense that you realize, oh, to be with him would be a nightmare, and he turns out to be his ex's nightmare. But in that moment, that's almost the. Like. That's almost the most terrifying moment is the idea of meeting someone and being like, man, you're cool.

What I love about that movie, too, is it really is just the worst possible situation to get over this ex. She's everywhere. She's on billboards. She's all this stuff. And that movie was kind of made a bit before social media was, at least the way social media is today. And I do think this whole retroactive jealousy thing, it is sort of just a real. Like a modern. Modern phenomenon. And I do wonder, like, is this making it just. I mean, look, is it making it just awful for people right now, or is. Is there also some kind of silver lining here? Are we all just becoming a bit tougher?

I don't know if it's new. I think it's just. You have so many more ways to torture yourself today.

Well, totally. Yeah. It's definitely not a new phenomenon, but the phenomenon of just it being so. Almost ridiculously in your face.

Correct? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's funny. We're funny. People are funny. I remember being at dinner with a guy before social media was where it is today. He was an older guy, maybe he was in his late 30s at the time, but he was. He was kind of funny. In the way that he spoke. And he was. I remember him saying like, you know, has. He was like, has my wife, you know, had. Had bigger dicks than me? He was like, probably like, yeah, she probably has. But, you know, like, I'm me and I have this and, you know, we have a great relationship. And ultimately she chose me and whatever. And I. I remember when he said it, I wanted to throw up. I remember being like, I. You have. The fact that you can even admit that and say that out loud is like some kind of Jedi level of equanimity. That at the time I was like, I cannot relate to this. You just, you know, I was like, why are you putting this in my head? But I kind of look back now and I was. And it's almost like he had, you know, he almost had reached some kind of just level of radical acceptance and maturity where he was just like, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, well, that's it. And I think that's. That's the kind of. The cherry, the points to this, right, is that if you let it, you will care. If you stalk your partner's ex, you will feel something. Probably most likely, if you think about your partner with other people, you will get jealous. If you think about all these things, you will care because you're a human being. So accepting that that is absolutely something that is able to make you feel. It's able to make you feel bad. But then choosing to go as a result, I'm gonna just avoid it. I'm not gonna allow myself to open that box. I'm not gonna allow myself to go there. Because what's the point? Every time I do, if I was to go there, I would just end up hurting myself.

I agree with that totally. And I think that removing the references to someone and removing the. All the things that can link you back to them or trigger those thoughts is always a good idea. If you've already kind of. If you've already opened the wound and done the damage. I think one of the things that can really help is just to. Just to realize and connect with the idea that whoever this person is that has become an almost mythical figure of intimidation in your mind. They're not king of the world, they're not queen of the world. You're taking a feature of them and making it really, really important. Whether it's that they're really funny or whether it's that they're really beautiful or good looking, or whether it's that that dude's got a great body or he's Taller or he's. Whatever, he's more successful. You're taking a feature and blowing out of all proportion. And you have to get back to the point where you go, no one is a God. No one is king of the world. No one is this person that's, by the way, so intimidating because you think that person has it all together. You're not thinking of that person in their deep, dark moments of despair or the things they're going through in their life, or the ways that that person that you're intimidated by has not got happiness figured out, or the way that they torture themselves, or the way that the thing they're going through right now, we. We rarely consider that. And it's almost like. I mean, this is a. This is a really horrible example in some ways. But it's actually also not that, you know, this always affected me. In. In the movie Crash, the cop, was he called Jameson? I go to you for all these references.

Ryan Fitter.

No, that. The really nasty cop, the white supremacist.

Cop, Matt Dillon is the Matt Dillon.

Matt Dillon. There's that harrowing scene where he sexually assaults the woman that he's searching after stopping them in the car, and which is one of those scenes that kind of got burnt into my mind and, you know, affected me. I remember at the time thinking I could never watch this again. But it's fascinating to me how he immediately became less intimidating when you saw him in his own life and how kind of sad and pathetic his own life was in many ways. And you see him sort of having a conversation with his dad where he's just. You just kind of get a sense that, oh, this isn't someone to be feared. This is a sad human being. Like, this is. And I say it's a tough. You know, obviously it's a tough example to give, but I think there's something to it. You. Look, I'm not saying the context makes you want to forgive the person. In some cases it does. But it. The context. What it does is it immediately takes this person off of their intimidating pedestal. And I honestly think that. That the greatest antidote to taking it back into a jealousy context, the greatest antidote to that is, is actually to stop thinking of this person as this towering figure, but as a person who is going through all sorts of struggles, who is probably torturing themselves over something, probably not achieving something they really want to achieve, probably comparing themselves to somebody else has all sorts of issues in their own life. And when you do that, you just. They cease to be this Godlike figure that you've made them into. No one can be under scrutiny. And I find that to be the great equalizer.

That was like the. One of the main themes of that, of that movie. There's the line that the little girl says, like, there's no such thing as monsters.

That's right.

Yeah. I used to listen to the Crash soundtrack and that was the name of one of the tracks, which is like, there's no such thing as monsters.

Oh, wow. I didn't even know that. That's so interesting. That really adds to that. There's no such thing as monsters. What a great way to end this episode. Anytime you feel retroactively jealous, remember there's no such thing as monsters. Well, before you go, don't Forget, email us podcastthewhussey.com Let us know what you thought of this episode. And in general, let us know how you're feeling, what you're up to and what you're going through right now. Or if you've got any anecdotes you want to tell us that we can read on the podcast, let us know. And don't forget, before you go, if you haven't already signed up for a 14 day trial to the Love Life membership, come over and do that because we have a lot of great stuff coming up. I promise you, every month you are not a member. You are missing really, really good stuff. This podcast is the tip of the iceberg of what we're doing. We have a whole club of people in the Love Life Club who have access to private webinars. Q and A's with me, Q and A's with Stephen.

We have master classes.

Master classes. We just did one on how to meet quality partners.

I love the master classes.

They're really good.

Yeah.

Two hour deep dives.

I think I like them because we work so hard on them and I'm involved with them, so I think I'm biased towards them. But they're really good.

Really, really good.

Yeah, I think they are. They are. They are. We kind of. We tend to round up people's questions and subjects and worries in certain departments and really just do a very kind of very, very deep dive into how we can answer every single facet of the problem.

Yeah. And we have interviews that we do with amazing people. We've had Ed Mylett recently. We had Guy Winchester. We've had Lisa Bilyeux. We've got, coming up, Judge Faith Jenkins. So all of this is going on in the Love Life Club and you can join for a 14 day free trial just to try it out for two weeks. Come over to askmh.com A-K-M h.com and sign up for a 14 day free trial to the Love life club.

So what did we learn today, guys? I have tame your fear and there is no such thing as monsters.

We call that Audacious Audrey's wrap up.

No, we don't. Yeah, you guys have really been pushing Audacious Audrey.

I have not been pushing Audacious.

I don't even know what it means, but I just like the illiteration.

I want to do a segment where Audrey goes through our programs because she's seen some of them, not all of them, and picks her, like just a little tidbit of something she really liked from one of the catalog.

Audrey's A list. Not bad.

Audrey's A list is good. That's better than Audacious Audrey.

We'll still find a segment for that. I'm not sure what it is yet.

I was going to call it Audrey in the archives, but that sort of makes her into sort of like a sort of weird mole.

Like a librarian.

Yeah, like she's sort of. What's his name in Game of Thrones? Who. Who's in the Grand?

Jamie Laniston.

Like, sort of squirreling around the main library like a moth.

Thanks, babe.

Not like a moth, like a mole. Sort of scrolling through books.

Okay, so we have three options. Any other suggestions? Send them in. So, yeah, I mean, I think at this rate, anything is better than Audacious Audrey or Audrey in the archives.

Do you guys know that I have. Speaking of going into the archive, I have the moment that the term jams was coined.

No way.

I have it recorded.

Jams, for those of you new to the podcast, is the acronym for Jameson, Audrey, Matthew and Steven. It's the best jams.

And we didn't know where it came from. We were just passing it by. We couldn't figure out who got credit for. Was it Matt? Was it Steven? Was it Audrey?

Can we all place bets before we.

Obviously me.

Before we release them.

Obviously me.

I don't know. I feel like it might have been me.

I don't think it was you.

All right, any bets? Any takers?

Steve?

I don't know who it was.

All right, hold on. I'm going to play it.

They can pick their person.

If you put all our names together, you could make the word jams. What would jam do?

Does it roll off the tongue?

Does it roll off the tongue? Not exactly.

Oh, my God.

Wow. The master himself. Nickname Master.

It was me all along. It's a great.

How arrogant we were.

I think Stephen knew it was him, and he immediately set a trap for us to look arrogant and conceited so that he could sort of, in a very chill way, be like, I don't know who came up with it.

You couldn't just let him have it.

You know, the first time we talked about it, I did think I might have, but you. You guys gaslit me out of thinking that.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I feel bad now.

Yeah, I feel. I feel pretty bad.

Well, it's a great plot. It's a great plot twist. When you find out you were the killer all along.

When you find out you were the genius all along, it's a great twist.

Bruce. Bruce Willis. Mom.

And I think this is genius.

Was me.

I think this is officially the best way to end the episode.

Well, yeah, on Steven's high. It's really great, Steve. I'm happy to give it to you. I think that's wonderful. And thanks, everyone. If you wanna, we are doing one more thing where we kind of want you to send in voice notes of, you know, how you feel about the show. Any comment you want to make on the. Any. Any comment is welcome. So, you know, even if it's abuse, as long as it's, you know, the sort of abuse, we can air whatever you want. Just leave us a voice note and we'll play some out loud on the podcast. Record it on. Even if you just record it on your phone, you know, no essays, just 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds max, and send it to podcasty.com. thank you, everyone. Steve and Audrey Jameson, appreciate you guys. We'll see you in the next episode of Love Life, where we help you find the love you want while loving the life you already have.

It.