Letting Go of the Life You Thought You’d Have: Grief, Truth, and Rebuilding Connection w/ Mary Fisher

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I find that being as honest as I can possibly be when I meet someone that I think I'm going to care about, that I'm tell the truth.

What does that look like? Well, for that level of honesty early on in a relationship.

It's scary. I think it's very, very scary.

What is the, I'm gonna get really nitty gritty on you.

Okay, go nitty gritty on me.

Welcome back to the Love Life Podcast, everybody. Really special guest today. I'm excited to talk to you about this woman before we get into the show. if you haven't already, go check out my free training dating with results. This is for anybody who is out there looking for love, taking love seriously, wanting a real relationship, but struggling with the dating culture out there that is fraught with situationships, people who are not serious, people who waste your time, manipulate, or just toxic in the way that they approach the process. If you want to find real love and you want a better way of doing it, go watch this free training right now. You can watch it at datingwithresults.com is completely free. Hundreds of thousands of people have now been through this training and you can too. So go to datingwithresults.com and check out that training while it's still available. Today on the Love Life Podcast, I am honored to be joined by a woman whose courage and voice have legitimately changed the world. Mary Fisher is an American artist, author, and activist who became a global icon for HIV and AIDS awareness in the early 1990s. After contracting HIV through her marriage, she made history with her landmark speech at the 1992 Republican National Convention, an address that shattered stigma moved millions and redefined what it meant to speak truth with dignity. But Mary's legacy goes far beyond a single moment. Through her writing, public service, and visual art, she has spent decades advocating for compassion, justice, and the power of vulnerability. Her work has taken her around the world from Washington DC to Africa, bringing light to the darkest corners of the AIDS epidemic and reminding us what it means to live with purpose. In today's conversation, we cover a huge range of subjects, from developing the confidence to speak up for ourselves, getting through life as a sensitive person, developing chosen family when you have to distance yourself from your own family, how to build community, finding your voice when you've been taught your whole life to be quiet or play small, how to stop being intimidated by other people, and how to get out of our own insecurity and truly make an impact on the people we meet. We also talk about her new book, Uneasy violence, which tells her story of speaking truth to power while living with AIDS, journeying through cancer, and surviving a near-death experience. Mary's story is a testament to how many different chapters there can be in a fully lived life. I trust you will finish this conversation a little more inspired, a little more courageous, and ready to live life a little larger. I present to you Mary Fisher. Mary Fisher, welcome.

Hello, Matthew.

Welcome to the Love Life Podcast. This is exciting for me. We met through a very dear mutual friend, David Kessler, and I happen to be at his house. for a celebration, and you were there. And that was the moment we met. And me and Audrey fell in love with you instantly.

As did I, of both of you.

So I remember having such a lovely conversation with you that day. And I remember distinctly a moment where David, we were going around the room and kind of telling stories of how we all knew each other. And David told this story of how you and him had met. And I hope you don't mind me sharing. We'll cut it out if you do.

I don't mind.

And we'll get into this as part of your story. But in 1991, you were diagnosed as HIV positive. And what year was it that you met David.

Let's see, it's 2025. It was 2023.

23?

Maybe.

And so, for those of you that don't know, David Kessler is, you know, the foremost expert in the world on grief.

Yes.

And if my memory serves me, he said, you came to him and said, I need you to help me die.

That's true. But let me just back up real quick on that, because He was one of the founders of Project Angel Food. And I had joined the board of Project Angel Food. And there are people there who were saying, the two of you need to get together. And it hadn't happened. By the time it did happen, that's exactly what I said to him.

And what did he say to you?

He said, okay. Why do you think you're dying? And, We discussed. He said, well, I don't think you're as low as you may feel you are. I think you're grieving. And I found that to be, whoa, so switch what's going on in my own brain, my heart, my body. 'Cause I was really feeling, which probably does happen when you have to take as many medications as I do, you know, up and down and up and down. And COVID hit me really hard. And I just thought, okay, it's time. I became a grandmother. That was great. I couldn't believe I was still here to do that. And so I asked David if he would just, help me ease out. But he said, I don't think you're dying. We've had a good laugh after that.

When that perhaps kind of switched you out of that gear, what did it mean for you to say, okay, well, if I'm not dying, then what does it mean for me to live right now? Did you have an answer to that question?

Yes, because I feel I've had purpose in my life. I feel that I've always cared, worked for the other in my life. But when David said that to me, I thought, well, if I can look at it as if I'm grieving and there's some trauma and there's some things that I need to work on, maybe I can talk about this. and do another book.

So what, I don't know how much you have shared about this, but what did you realize you were grieving at the time? Can you talk about that?

I was grieving loss of family, loss of community, and that was part of COVID too that did that, I'm sure. I was grieving being in a new city, and not having connections and not knowing people except, you know, through Project Angel Food and through helping others. But I felt like my bubble had been my children and my grandchildren, and that had been my bubble. And I, you know, I still haven't quite figured out since I'm an East Coast person. I haven't quite figured out north, south, east, and west here anyway, so it doesn't matter. I can't figure it all out. But I felt very, alone. And I felt that it was.

I.

Also, I mean, it's interesting, your question is interesting to me because I sort of felt that if I was grieving, I could work with that. If I was maybe not as depressed as I thought I was, maybe I had energy. And maybe I could think about the things that had bothered me or the way my family or growing up or whatever it was. And maybe I could say out loud what I thought. And how would that make me feel? Some of that's political. Some of that certainly is the ability to have some, since I did work in politics for years and grew up in a Republican home and don't feel that, I feel that the Republican Party has left me. So a lot of those things were, you know, going around in my head during this time. And I was thinking that maybe I just didn't have the energy for that. And David made me believe that I could. that I had energy, that I could do that, and that that brought on the uneasy silence that I could talk about that. I think many women, well, I'm now 77, so I'd say it's fairly old. But I mean, I was raised to just be quiet, just be a good girl. It was in a family that that's what you were told.

I want to come back to that idea of being brought up to be quiet and to fall in line and to be a good girl and.

What.

Transitioning out of that looks like and what it looks like to find your voice over the years.

But.

When you talk about the the grieving of fat, when you talk about grieving of family, you're not necessarily talking of family who have passed, you're talking of family who are still here.

Yes. And I did lose my mother and that was huge for me because I think we were very, very connected. And I had a stepfather who passed even earlier. And so, I felt like I had taken care of my mother her whole life, and all of a sudden she was now gone. And I think that my world changed. And that was part of the, I don't know, beginning of another depression. I do think that there's, I don't know, because I'm not a doctor, but I do think that there are some clinical probably things that happen when you have HIV and you have So much medication and maybe you go in and out of depression. I don't know.

But what did that grieving look like for you? Because there will be so many people listening to this who find themselves grieving an old life, maybe a marriage that fell apart, maybe an idea of a relationship they thought they had and it got revealed to be something else. grieving an old life in another city with a community, maybe that they don't any longer have, that there will be people grieving so many different things right now, and maybe again not even realizing they're grieving, maybe just thinking they're depressed.

-Cb: Right.

-Cb: and that they don't have any energy and they're losing the will to go on. When you had that realization, like, oh, I'm, I'm grieving. I'm grieving an old way of being or an old community, a family, a place, a different time. And even in your case, you know, at some point, I imagine there was grieving the loss of a political reference point that you connected to, that you no longer felt connected to. What did the grieving process look like for you once you realized, oh, this isn't just I'm not just going to write this off as depression. This is grieving. How did it change things in terms of what you did next or how you handled those emotions?

Two things. One was understanding that most of the time when I got quiet or felt quiet is when I would go, I'm an artist as well, and I would go to my art and I would make art and I would be creative. And that always brought me to a very mindful, if I could use that word, place, but a quiet place and a place that allowed my heart to sing because I feel I was always an... I was a young seventh grader who started weaving. I've always done art.

And we have a piece of your art hanging up in our bedroom, actually, from the last, when we came to your book event, we took our piece home with us.

I was so excited about that. I mean, I found that, that it, and even that art was not different than I had been doing, but it sort of looks different because it is in a book, and now it's in a print, and it's different. But, textures and all of the things that you do when you watercolor and you weave or you do fabric and you dye fabric and you add fabric and you, I made handmade paper and all those things. I didn't have my studio anymore because I had come here and I didn't have the ability to go big kind of thing. So for me, it was like, Okay, I'm going small, but I'm being creative. And that was a big part. The other part was getting out of myself to help the other. And that's where Project Angel Food helped me tremendously, because I really know that service to others Changes my life. It really does on a daily basis. And sometimes I get too, you know, hung up on myself and then I realize that it's, go do something for somebody else. I feel better. It makes me feel better when I realize that it's not like I'm just facing a depression, but this is part of how I come out of my grieving. Besides, you know, a therapist, besides all of the work that you have to do to talk about trauma and the things in your life and to say, okay, I don't have to live with that anymore. I'm old enough to not worry so much about what you think of me. I feel like I can say how I feel, say what I think, and take care of others, build a community.

Do you think that people can.

Achieve.

That earlier in their life, that feeling of just not caring so much what other people think. And if so, what's the secret to that?

I would wish that for everyone because I think that if I had had that goal earlier in my life, I think that I might have even done more. But I do think having HIV and being diagnosed as a young mother with two toddlers, that changed my thinking about mortality. I had five years to live. That's what they expected. No medications, no nothing. And that does change the way you think about yourself. My world at that point was so weird in a way because I didn't know any women that were HIV positive. I didn't know, I knew the community because I had many friends who had passed away and I had worked in the community. I had been working with substance abuse in women and a lot of these women were showing up HIV positive. So I knew It was happening, but I certainly didn't think it would happen to me.

And when you were diagnosed, this was a time when people were terrified.

Terrified. Terrified. And so were all of us who were diagnosed. People always wanted to know, Where did you get it? How did you get it? What did it happen? You know, it was always where to put the blame so that they could take themselves out of the picture.

So they didn't feel like they were in the firing line.

Right. And my biggest line, and whenever I spoke and speeches and stuff, you know, if it could happen to me, it could happen to you. We have to teach our children. If we love our children, we have to give them the tools. Young people, this is the kind of conversations I would have in those days with young people when I went public and I could do this. was to tell them, you know, drinking is gonna make you change the judgments that you have in your life and understand that you may make choices that will affect you for the rest of your life. Some things may be curable. HIV is not curable. And I would explain that. And we had an incredible amount of people who obviously thought that it didn't affect them or didn't affect their children or the people they knew.

So I want to break this down because what was it that made you feel empowered to be vocal on a different level? Because there was that famous moment of you at the Republican National Convention. in 1992. And if, I mean, for everybody listening, take a moment and just pull up on YouTube, Mary Fisher, Republican National Convention, 1992, because this was the first thing we did after that we met you. We went straight home and we watched that speech and it blew us away to be saying that in the Republican National Convention of all places. In 1992, it's extraordinary to watch and to see the faces and to see the applause you got and it was incredible. And I'm just wondering, if you were to break it down for people, what gave you courage to actually be vocal and to not Just hide away with this, but to say, I'm going to speak my truth. You've mentioned mortality as being one thing, and I think for everybody that sharpens their focus in a completely different way and changes the intentions around what they're doing. I'm curious how you think the rest of us can bring mortality into our lives in practical ways to get ourselves to be braver. But what else outside of that aspect of it, would you say made you brave, made you able to speak your truth? Was it that you changed the intention away from self-preservation to making an impact? Was it that, in a sense, this thing was out there now, you had already said it, and so now it's like, Well, I've got a lot less to lose now because it's already out there. So now what am I going to be afraid of? Was it a combination of all of the above? I'm just curious because I almost want to extract from this something that people can bring into their own lives in a way that could make them braver about having a louder voice.

The ability to speak out was something that was I didn't ever expect to be able to do that, especially in my family, and especially because I worked at the White House. I did television, but I was always in the background. I was a producer. I did all these things. And it seemed at that moment in time when I had a friend or someone I met who said, We've been waiting for someone like you to help us. And she said, you,'re the woman. I said, yeah, but I'm not-- Magic Johnson had just also been diagnosed, you know, not Magic Johnson. But you're the person that can make a difference. And I did research. And I talked to doctors, and I talked to people in the press, and they weren't going to say anything. And my family was not very happy about all of I must tell you. And because of the way everybody thought about it and what about their children and what about, you know, how was I gonna make the family look, I guess. But there was something that said to me that I didn't want my children to go to school and when their teachers would say, what does your mom do? Or what did your dad do? That they would not be able to raise their hand and say, My mom has AIDS and she talks about it or whatever, that they would feel the stigma that I felt so harshly in those days for me and for so many other people. I didn't want the stigma for them. And that was a push, that was pushing. And I also realized that it wasn't about me. because I had it now.

And.

Maybe if this is true that women weren't talking about it, that maybe I could be a voice. I also had a wonderful mentor. Can I tell you that story about Betty Ford? You know, I had gone to them to tell them. I took the children and went to them and told them that I was diagnosed. They were so upset. I had worked for President Ford in the White House, and Betty had become a friend, a dear friend, and I wanted them to know that I was okay, the children were okay, and I don't know what it's going to bring. And her voice to me was, once we finished crying and being angry and whatever else emotional that went on that day, she said to me, What are you going to do for others? What are you going to do for other women? How are you going to use this? I thought, you know, she did this. She did this as well. Her alcoholism, her breast cancer. You know, she did it at a time when it was not fashionable or whatever to do it, because that's how she felt. She taught me that. And I think with a lot of those kinds of things that go on top of one another, it made me believe that maybe I could make a difference and that my children would be proud.

Wow.

And that's what, to me, what makes that so beautiful is that it's the, you couldn't rely on it making your family proud.

No.

And it wasn't, something that was encouraged. There was a lot of resistance there. So to find somebody else that it, you wanted to make an impact on, to find somebody else that you could make it about, I think is really beautiful. You know, we, I work with a lot of people who, in their love lives, struggle maybe because of religion, maybe because of their culture, maybe the world they've come from struggle with the disapproval of families and resistance and sometimes even the threat of excommunication. And if you choose this person or this life will have nothing to do with you. And for some that's just too scary or the risk is too great and they'll lose too much, maybe too much support, they'll lose all the resources they have. There's so much at stake. Could you share some thoughts that might be helpful or relevant to people like that who feel like by making choices that are good for them, they will face resistance or worse from their family?

I don't know if I have the perfect answer for that. I believe in my world, for me, that I had to create a chosen family because I needed support. And I would say to anyone who is going through that, that they need to find support before they do make a split like that or make that decision, because you want to live your values, you want to live your heart, and you don't want to upset other people. But I guarantee you that there are other people out there that feel the way you do. Therefore, if you can find those people to help give you the support to do what is going to make you happy, what is going to make you smile, and is going to give you joy in your life.

Question, do you have your tickets yet for the Matthew Hussey Weekend Retreat this October 18th and 19th? in Miami, Florida. This is a once only event that is happening this year for anybody who wants to truly break the patterns of a lifetime. We all have patterns that we feel hold us back. Patterns of thinking, patterns of behaviour, the way we talk to ourselves. We all have ways that we hold ourselves back or sabotage anytime a good thing comes along or stop us from ever getting out there in the first place and finding that good thing, whether it's in love, our career or anywhere else. The retreat is about truly unlocking your potential in life. And we do it in three ways. I show you how to rewire your patterns. I show you how to change that inner voice that constantly doubts and holds you back. And I show you how to regulate your emotions with practical tools that change your daily experience of living because the quality of your emotional state is the quality of your life in any circumstances. Tickets for the retreat are available right now at mhrtrtreat.com. we have in-person tickets, which are very limited because there are only so many seats in the room in Miami, and we have online tickets for anyone who can't make it. So go grab the ticket that makes sense to you. no matter what ticket you get, just make sure you're there. Tickets are available at mhretreat.com. go and grab yours and let me know when you've got one. I can't wait to know who is coming. I'll see you there. Could you speak to that idea of chosen family and what for you that looks like? Because A lot of people, I think especially these days, feel that they're almost worse at making new friends than they've ever been. And they really struggle with the idea of forming, because in a way, the kinds of bonds you're talking about have to be strong enough that they really can support you. So it's unlikely to be the superficial connection you have with the person who happens to go to the same coffee shop as you. Unless you really develop that connection and it becomes something sturdy and something that you can rely on. But we live in a world today where so many people are very disconnected and we live a lot online and there's, you know, we're addicted to our phones and we struggle more and more to make friends in the real world. So what does chosen family really look like? to you. And how do you get there? How do you go from the only support system I know is, is the one that's also keeping me stuck and maybe, maybe in some cases, incredibly toxic and keeping me mentally really psychologically unhealthy and yet not having a branch at this point because I don't even know how to get out there and create a new community, create new friends. What does that What are the practical steps people can take to actually build that? And what does it look like once you have it? How do you know you have it?

That's huge, isn't it?

It's huge.

Well, I feel fortunate. I'm in AA and that helped me find incredible people. I had support of, I still have friends from high school that are still my friends. And I have friends that worked in the White House with me. They were still my friends. And I have, those are the people that were always there for me, especially when I was diagnosed, right there for me. And a lot of people weren't. And it was the superficial people that weren't. And it was interesting. And that taught me that, you know, these are the people I want around me. these are the people that I care about. So now coming to a new community, you know, I rely on the old community as part of my chosen family. I find that being as honest as I can possibly be when I meet someone that I think I'm going to care about, that I tell the truth.

What does that look like? Well, that level of honesty early on in a relationship.

It's scary. I think it's very, very scary. But I think that you'll find if that person responds to you and says something else that was maybe a he or she can say, you know, that happened to me too. Let's talk about that. It's talking differently. I think it's sharing different things. It's sharing things that we might have gone through. And now that I'm older, I've gone through a lot of things. So it's being able to share those things with others. And I think there's a piece of you in your gut that knows this person is caring about me. Maybe we could develop something here.

What is the, I'm gonna get really nitty gritty on you.

Okay, go nitty gritty on me.

What is the right level of vulnerability at that stage? You know, you're just getting to know someone. You, you feel like you want closeness in your life, you want connection in your life. To your point, you want to see what relationships have the potential to be real and have depth. Ones where people see you and accept you. But there are also scenarios that's not, that are not hard to imagine where we meet someone and we kind of offload too much or share too much? And what is the right balance in your world? How do you find the right balance between not oversharing, but also being truthful in a way that opens you up to a genuine connection?

Oh boy.

You came for all the easy questions today.

Yeah, thank you so much. Well, you know, obviously I haven't done well with my relationships. in the past. But I think that as I got older, I learned that the relationships will build, but it may take a little bit longer than I think. And it may take that kind of time where you're gonna spend a little bit more time with someone and ask hard questions or talk about difficult things instead of just talking about you know, surface stuff. And I think then you can tell, then you know, and you say, I want to go further with this person. And then you say that. I mean, I think being honest and saying, you know, I really would love to hear more about your life, hear more about what you care about, because I like what's happening here. And that's the honesty I'm talking about. It's not like saying, boy, am I infatuated with you, you know, because you're so cute and adorable and all of that. I'm talking about your heart and your soul. And I'm talking about, you know, where do we come from that we have in common and what don't we have in common? But do we think the same way?

Well, that's a really, that's a really interesting way of putting it, because you're right that, that I, I actually think what you just said is what gets us out of The mode of worshipping someone, idealizing them, being infatuated, because all of those things do, I think, live on. They tend to live on a more egoic, superficial level. We see qualities in someone that we think are exciting. They seem shiny in some way. They're impressive. They're charismatic. They're charming. There's something about them that has got us worked up. But that, do we think the same way? Is, you know, I was always taught it's more important how you think than what you think. And, you know, how lives at quite a deep level.

Very.

So figuring that out about someone the way you just suggested by speaking truth and wanting to hear about their truth is a very, that's a very powerful place to come from in relationships.

Sometimes I think for me it's not always about me and it doesn't always happen because I'm looking for it. I think living in a way that for purpose in my life and for serving others and all of that, I always find if I ask someone what I can do for them, it sometimes takes puts them off guard, but then it creates a different conversation. What do you need? What can I do for you?

And.

I like doing that.

Audrey has a phrase she loves, which is generosity of spirit. And that to me shows generosity of spirit. It's I'm getting out of my own head. And what I need, because I think we go into relationships a lot, whether they're friendships or romantic, we go in a lot sort of grabbing solutions to whatever ails us. Like, I'm anxious. I need your reassurance. I feel lonely. I need you to make me feel like I'm okay. And we go into so many relationships that way, trying to get something. and we sense that when someone is, we've all had that moment where we start to realize about a certain relationship. Oh, you only call me when you need something, or you only call me when you're struggling. And the reason you call me is because I'm good at reassuring you or because I'm really good at making you feel better. And that's, there's nothing wrong with that, but. you start to sense that pattern and it starts to become an unattractive quality in the other person when we realize that it's really always about their feelings. It's always about them. There isn't that generosity of spirit of someone calling you up and saying, I wanted to see how you're doing today.

Well, and that will tell you, you know, if you're talking about chosen family, you know, that would say, well, this person is fine. But, and you'll be there for them if they need you, but it might not be your chosen family. And admitting that to yourself is sometimes hard, don't you think? I mean, you want it to be that person, but maybe it's not.

Can you talk more about that? Because I know there's a lot of people listening right now who have someone in mind when you say that, and they're really struggling to part ways with that person and the story they've told themselves about how this person's no, no, no, they're supposed to be right for me. We're perfect for each other in the case of a romantic relationship. Or this person's my best friend and has always been my best friend and is, you know, they have a story about the fact that this person who's always been their best friend is supposed to be their best friend forever. So, you know, we get attached to these ideas we have in our head of who someone is supposed to be, and. And then it becomes very, very hard to part ways with that. So what? What do you say to those people?

Well, I always think that supposed to be something is not necessarily what that thing is. Maybe. But as I got older, I feel that way. When I was younger, I was that way. But it's supposed to be perfect. It's like all of that because it has this, this, this, and this. But what truly gives you joy? What truly makes you feel love? What truly makes you care? And if you can answer those questions about that person, then it's a different situation. I'm not a relation, you're the relationship person. If I had known you 50 years ago, You know, I think I would have made some different choices in my life. But seriously, I don't know that I'm one to, I can only say how it's been for me.

But what it sounds like you've really authentically arrived at is a place of radical acceptance of how people are. that are in your life instead of a constant clinging to what you hope they might have been. And I do think that that there's something incredibly liberating about making peace with the way people are. And it frees up so much energy because the, the, all that clinging, it drains us. You know, I sometimes, I don't know, it's probably a bad analogy for it, but it's a bit like surfing a wave and realizing that there are certain ways you can go that give you more momentum and more speed and keep you on the board. And there are other ways you can go that are going to make you crash. And I think radical acceptance is kind of a way of surfing in our relationships where you realize, oh, this person's never going to be that thing. so let me stop asking for that thing from them because they've never been able to provide that. And I keep trying to get them to provide that, and it's not within their capabilities or they're not willing. So let me. Let me go a different direction. And of course, now, when you decide that you have all of this energy freed up for newness in your life and for people that actually might make really good candidates, for that particular role that you're looking for. But you have no energy for that if you're burning out all the time.

Well, and I also think, you know how we get into some relationships and we think it should be this way or it's supposed to be this way. And we tend to, you know, tell little white lies or we, you know, we do things to make it better and to make it how it should be. But then can you, can you think about a time when how wonderful it would be if you were always telling the truth and you never had to worry about what you were saying because you didn't lie. You didn't make it up. So if you feel that comfortable in your life, you know, you don't have to go and, you know, get that monkey brain in your head that says, did I tell that person that? Did I not tell that? You know, I mean, if you're just living your truth, Then you're really being good to yourself.

Yeah.

And you're being good to the people around you. I mean, having a sense of humor helps. If you can have a sense of humor about yourself, I think that helps a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I really believe it's about us being truthful with each other. And like you say, open up that other space. you're spending too much time, you know, trying to make something that isn't there.

If you want immediate help from me for your love life or for any part of your life, you don't have to try to DM me on Instagram or find a way to hire me as your private coach, which I do only a handful of private appointments in a single year. these days, you can go and ask your question of Matthew AI, my brand new tool that is designed to either speak to you on the phone or by text 24 hours a day, whenever you need it, for as long as you want. We have people having multi-hour conversations with Matthew AI, lots of texts back and forth, whether it's the middle of the night because you can't sleep over anxious thinking about somebody, whether you're post break up and you're dealing with the grief of losing a relationship, or whether you just had a first date and you're trying to figure out what to text someone the next day. Matthew AI is there to either help you know what to do, know what to say, figure out what something means, or move forward emotionally. This is like having my mind in your pocket whenever you need it. You can try it out at AskMH. .com we even have a free trial where you can try it for a few minutes, ask a few questions to see what it can do for you before you decide to get unlimited access. Go try it out at askmh.com. How did you learn to to kind of, you know, being from a family where you were taught to be quiet and having just released a book called uneasy silence, what advice do you have out for people out there who are trying to develop their own voice, who are trying to almost rebel against the wiring that, that was started back in maybe childhood or informative relationships or in a marriage that really taught them to be quiet, to be background, to be a good girl, as you put it, to the, or that taught them their needs weren't valid. Like you, you know, you'll be loved as long as you don't have too many needs. How, what, what do you say to people who want to start to step into a different level of worth and power at this point in their life, even if they've spent a whole lifetime so far in the opposite.

I don't think it happens all at once, Matthew. I think that you test it. And why don't you test it on one of the people that you know supports you? And say, you, know, I really feel this way about that. Not what I told you, but this is how I really feel. And see how they react. And these are the people that love you. And then you do one, and then you do another, and then you do another. and you start to say that, you know, I'm okay. I can do this. But it doesn't mean that it happens all like it, you know, you shift, you know, your life that fast. It happens slowly and it happens with thought and it happens with honesty with yourself.

I love that idea of teaching yourself It's okay, I can do this because you're saying create a new reference point and ideally create a new reference point in an area where it's safe to do so, or there's a relative safety.

Right.

It may be with a therapist. It may be with someone that you've known for a long time. It may be with a family member that you can talk to, but and say, you know, I just would very much like you to keep this to yourself or something like that. And then see what happens. And then you know. And, but accepting the truth, being truthful, but also accepting the truth from other people is hard. And you gotta go, well, maybe I should think about this differently.

It's hard when our nervous systems are, you know, the moment we speak, we're flooded with anxiety.

Right.

Or guilt.

Oh, guilt's a big one. Yeah. Guilt's huge.

Like, I feel awful for saying no to that person or for speaking up or did I make someone else feel bad? Did I, have I let someone down?

Taking things too personally?

Yeah.

That too. Well, I don't know. Strength of the honesty, it really helps that. Strength of thinking how the other feels really helps that.

In what sense?

Because you take it out of yourself. You get out of your way. Get out of your way. Get out of your own way. And realize it's maybe it's not all about me. Maybe it's about there's a bigger world out there. I mean, I can tell you that I've worked with people in all countries and helped women and helped, you know, empower them. And the things that they do is when they feel good about themselves, they make a change in their lives. If they're doing something, let's be creative. If it's something you've always wanted to do, do something for you. And then you can do something for someone else. But take it away from that necessarily someone's going to make my life better.

What do you say to people who, would you describe yourself as a sensitive person?

I would.

Have you managed to kind of.

To.

Soften the impact of that for yourself? Have you managed to kind of either desensitize yourself in certain ways or to stop the worst effects of being sensitive, where things really wound you, or, you know, it feels like things can get to you easily, or have you found anything helps?

I feel wounded by the world we're in right now. I feel terribly wounded because I don't agree with so much of the devastation that's happening. How do I feel better? go make something, knit something, create something. Talk to the people that I love. Talk to the people that I know care about me, because I know they're probably feeling that same way. I I I I I wish I had a good answer for you.

I think that's a good one. I think the idea of making something, I mean, for me, the most creative times in my life have generally been the times where I've been hurt the most or something has deeply, deeply wounded me. In some cases, it's times where I've suffered what I think of as the biggest ego deaths, you know, where there's nothing left to hold on to ego-wise because I've been flattened. by something. You know, I've, you know, publicly failed or I'm publicly wounded or there's like nothing to hold, there's nothing for my ego to hold on to. And there's something very freeing about that because from that place, it's like now from this place of hurt or pain, I can just create something. I can make something and I can try and make something helpful. Because if I'm feeling this, then other people have felt this. And how can I, instead of trying to prove something to someone or impress someone, what if I just used this pain to connect with someone?

Exactly. I think that's exactly right. And I think that not separating yourself from other people and not, you know, making small groups, you know, against each other and stuff like that. Yes, use the pain, but if you can allow yourself to feel the pain, that's the biggest step first. And understand that, yeah, I made the wrong decision here. But it doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. I mean, I've made the wrong decision. Now how can I make myself feel better? It's not just forgetting about it. It's like, getting through it, let it get in there and get through it. And that's maybe therapy, you know, maybe that's the best or a good friend that you can talk to.

You've been around so many prominent people in your life, and you've met a lot of very, very powerful people, influential people. Do you find yourself still getting intimidated by people or less So these days.

I probably am sort of normal that way. I get not intimidated, but like maybe in awe of people and just like, wow, I'm grateful to be in the presence.

Well, that's different though from intimidated, right? I would say that's much more empowering, 'cause then you can just enjoy what's there to be enjoyed about someone.

Exactly.

For so many of us, when we're in front of someone, we perceive to be better than us. We put them on a pedestal. We think they're smarter than us, better looking than us, more accomplished than us. We take it as real insecurity or that, you know, we, we fear we're not gonna impress them or that they're not going to deem us as worthy. What would you say to people who struggle with being intimidated by people? Would it be that to learn to appreciate things. How do you appreciate things about someone without being. Without feeling like it's a threat to what is you, to where you're at or who you are?

Well, they're human, like I am. And, you know, they go through all the human things.

Yeah.

Maybe some of those people have more security than I have. I don't know. I don't. I. I think that it's to step down and step down from that high place that you think you are in and just go, you know, it's just a regular person. We're regular people. We all are. I mean, yeah, a lot of people have done a lot of wonderful things in this world and would I like to meet them?

Yes.

But I like to meet them for different reasons now as I'm older. I want to know What made them want to do that? Or what, how, Amanda Gorman, you know, the young poet?

No.

She's a poet and she's young and she did the inauguration, I think of Joe Biden's inauguration. And this is a young woman who tells a story by poetry. Would I love to meet her? Yeah, I would love, she would intimidate me because I can't write poetry. I mean, but yes, but she's amazing. I mean, I just, I find intimidated, I don't find, I don't feel so intimidated anymore. I think I feel more like awestruck or maybe a fan girl or something, you know, it's like, ah.

But you don't feel it takes away from your power or your sense of worth. because I think that's where the intimidation for a lot of people comes from, is I can't just be in appreciation. In a way, they feel what they're appreciating is just highlighting how insufficient they are.

Well, that's something to work on. And I may feel like that, depending on who I'm meeting. But I think that we have to know that we are special, too. We are, and we are Perfect. You know, we really are. All of us.

We.

Have wonderful things to share and to give as well. This person may have done it publicly. We do it maybe not quite so big, but okay. It doesn't mean that we're not good enough. We find out that we're good enough. We're meeting this person. Isn't that an exciting thing to do? I mean, you know, I meet you and I'm like, wow, how amazing it is what you've done and how vulnerable you are and how much you've created and how many people listen to you and care about what you're saying about them. Because you're telling your truth and you're telling your story and you're being open. That could be intimidating, but it's not because you're being truthful. and you care. Why is it that we don't care about other people? Why do we not care that the children in Africa aren't getting fed? You know, why do we not care that there's a lot of poverty or children can't get fed in this country? I mean, caring is a big thing about that. And if you're meeting people Because you're fortunate enough to meet somebody that has the ability or something that you know is strength. You go, yeah, I'm lucky. I'm fortunate. I'm grateful. I'm thrilled.

And what a great kind of way to circle back because that caring about someone or a cause, something you're doing is, I find, one of the fastest ways to dissolve the ego that makes us feel not good enough in the first place, that makes us feel intimidated. Because that not good enough feeling is all about me. Like, I'm completely focused on myself and whether I'm enough, which means I'm really navel-gazing.

Right.

Whereas when you are worried about someone else who's not getting enough to eat or, you know, how do I get this person out of this toxic relationship so that they can go and live a better life? All of a sudden, you're not thinking about yourself anymore.

Right.

You're thinking about somebody else. And that's the great gift of it. I always say to people in public speaking, you know, I've been speaking for 18 years of my life now, and When people talk to me about, well, what do you, how do you deal with the nerves or how do you deal with getting up in front of people? And, and I always know that to me, one of the great secrets is what are your intentions when you step on stage? Because if my intention is looking good, then I'm going to be nervous.

You're going to be nervous.

If my intention is, you know, I have something to say that if these people don't hear it, it will hurt them. So how do I. How do I get that across in the time that I have so that they can be helped by that? Then all of a sudden, it's not about me anymore. It's about these people sitting in front of me. And I believe that that's what you did in 92 when you were at that convention.

Oh, there's no question about that.

It was about other people.

Well, I always do that every time. And I've done speaking now for what, 35 years or whatever. I wish you the same. I know. But I mean, I always say a little prayer before I speak to center myself. And I always pray that I can say it the way they need to hear it.

That's beautiful. I love that. So simple.

Yeah, simple. And maybe you only get one person out of this whole group, or maybe you get 20. It doesn't matter.

I'm so excited about this book of yours. Audrey and I have not stopped talking about you since we met you. And the fact that it coincided with you releasing this book which for everyone out there, it is called Uneasy Silence by Mary Fisher. An activist seeks justice and courage over a lifetime of change. I find your story incredibly moving and powerful. I love that you're out there making things. I hope you never stop making things.

Thank you.

And I know this is a deeply, deeply personal book for you. So I'm really excited for people to read it and get to know you better and to learn from you, as I know we all have today. And I'm excited to keep learning from you.

So thank you.

Thank you for your time today.

Thank you, Matthew. Thank you for having me. And I'm just grateful.

Where can people get the book?

Anywhere that they get books. And it's also an audiobook, and it's also Kindle. It's an audiobook and Amazon or, or any place that Bookstores.

Amazing. So it's in all formats. Go grab a copy of the book. Is there anywhere else that you would like to direct people to? I know a portion of the proceeds of this book are going to Project Angel Food.

Correct.

Which is amazing. Is there anywhere you want people to check out or come visit you or see you doing your thing?

No, I don't have, I don't, not at this, not today.

Not today. Where can they find you if they'd like to find you?

Oh, maryfischer.com as my website, and I'm on all of the social media sites. I'm not really good at it, but I have people that help me because I can't, I think I've just, this is another generational thing. We all have people who help us.

It's a generation.

It's a nightmare. Yeah, but I'm on all the social media. It's Mary Fisher Art on Instagram. Amazing.

And I have a picture when, maybe when we do a post something on Instagram of this conversation, we'll post up the picture Audrey and I bought from your collection.

Well, it's in the book. You know, that's what's so beautiful about this whole thing, because the story is there, but so is the art.

That's gorgeous.

Thank you.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening, everybody. And it would be remiss of me not to point out that what Mary said at the beginning of the episode, that she found herself in a completely new chapter of her life, trying to figure out how to make the most of it, realizing that her depression and what she was struggling with was really a grieving of her old life and a desire and a need to create a new one. You may be in that place right now. And the place where I help people move from the old life to the new life is the retreat. So I really hope that as many of you come and join me there as possible. Like I said before, it is happening in October in Miami. You can either come join me in person or you can get a virtual ticket and join me from afar. It doesn't matter which. Just make sure you get access to what I'm doing that weekend, because I promise you it will be an absolute game changer, not just for your next year, but for your next 10 years. So come and join me. @mhretreat.com where you can get your tickets and thank you so much as always for listening to the Love Life Podcast. I'll see you in the next one.