Matthew and Audrey Solo: What to Do When Someone Pulls Away, Managing Social Anxiety, and Our Quarterly Audit for 2025

Foreign.

20Th is an important date to put in your diary. I am holding a free live event to the world called Dating Made simple, the no nonsense approach to finding love in 2025 without settling for less. We are going to have over 10,000 people joining from all over the world. I want you to be one of them. If you're struggling in dating right now, if you're finding that what's on offer setting seems really, really depressing. If you find that people aren't willing to settle down or they're not even willing to take dating seriously and you feel like you are burning out in the process of trying to find love, this event is for you. It's on May 20th. It's completely free. Bring your friends, bring your family. You can sign up for free at lovelifetraining.com welcome back to the Love Life podcast, everybody. I am here with Audrey Hussey, my wife, USA wife.

Yeah, a waifu.

We are missing Stephen Hussey.

We're missing him on the podcast and in our life. Yeah, yeah.

Well, we look forward to having you back, Stephen, when you get back. This episode is going to be great, with or without Stephen because we have a couple of big things to talk about. Firstly, we're going to be answering a Love Life listener question question we really liked and we think so many of you are going to relate to. It relates to why people pull away when we show interest. We are going to be talking about an exercise that both you and I have done in the month of May that is really important to do at this point in the year if we want to make the rest of the year as good as it can possibly be. We're going to be talking about social anxiety, struggling to find the time for our relationships in life, how to take a more confident approach to our connections, and why. Fearing being seen is potentially one of the biggest reasons why we are struggling both in our social connections and in love right now. So we think you're going to enjoy this one. Let's get into it.

Do it.

So listen, a question first.

So this one came in. I will keep this person's name anonymous because I don't know if she wants her name to be out there. So it reads, hi, I want you to talk about the idea that if you show interest, the other person will inevitably pull away. So it's not right to show interest if someone in our past pulled away. How can I overcome the feeling of fear that when I meet somebody else who in fact shows interest, he won't pull away? So gist of it is this idea, this story that if she expresses interest, that will drive somebody away and almost kind of, you know, create an imbalance between in then in the dynamic. And so she's afraid of actually expressing interest in dating in general.

Yeah, well, it starts with an assumption, doesn't it, that if I show interest, they will pull away. And look, most of us have evidence for that. At some point we have shown interest in someone and the moment we started really showing interest, it felt like they pulled away. They stopped being interested, they stopped pursuing us. The question becomes, or one of the questions is, do I really want to attract somebody by essentially being hard to get? And for how long do I want to play that game? Because if I play hard to get for a long time, I won't know what their reaction is to me being just me, to me actually showing up to me dating the way I would really like to date, where I let my guard down and where I just have fun and where I'm not constantly trying to put on some kind of performance, perfectly calibrating all the time exactly how much interest I show in someone and always keeping it just on the side of not enough so that this person's constantly reeled in by my, my playing hard to get. How long do you want to do that for? And it's also a really scary thing to get someone by continuously playing hard to get and then eventually getting them and not knowing what's going to happen when you actually decide to just be yourself.

Yeah, that's so true. And I think as well, you know, the, the realization that if you behave in unhealthy ways, such as playing games, playing hard to get you going to attract unhealthy people. And the person who you managed to get because you were kind of hot and cold and kept them on their toes and kept them guessing as to whether you like them isn't necessarily going to be the kind of person you're going to want to be with long term. Really what you're looking for. If you are a secure person, you're looking for a secure partner. And secure people don't actually respond well to mixed signals. So I would also, you know, advise looking inward and saying, you know, is there something in me that almost believes that that's kind of. That's the value that in of relationships is when, you know, maybe I'm also interested when people are kind of hot and cold. And so I believe that that's why other people will be interested. And I don't believe that an authentic mutual connection can really give me, give me. You know, it doesn't ever flourish into a real relationship.

What do you say to people who say, okay, but there's obviously an amount of interest that does seem to push people away? And there's an. There is like a. It does feel like in reality, there's an appropriate amount of interest to give someone. And it can easily be got wrong a little bit. Like how in a breakup, when someone breaks up with another person, the person who's been broken up with may really want them back. And there is this intuitive sense that I can push too hard. I can be very, very desperate at the time of a heartbreak. There's an amount of that that doesn't serve us in those moments. And most of us realize there is something about human nature that means if we try too hard or if we show too much interest, it does seem to have some kind of an effect even in potentially healthy situations. So how do you manage. I'm curious what your thoughts are on managing that dichotomy between wanting to be authentically yourself and not wanting to show so much interest, even if it's authentic, that you do push someone away who just thinks it's too much.

Yeah, that's such a good question. Well, first of all, I want to say that, you know, what this listener expresses is something I've felt before, many, many times. And to your point, I think it is a fine line, and it is a kind of balance to be struck because we all have points of reference where we were very keen and all in and no games, and that actually did push somebody away. And so I. I'm not coming from a place of saying, like, you need to be coming out and being all healed in order to attract a healed person. Whatever. That's not what I'm saying. I. I think that there is a difference between letting somebody believe that you are all in so early on, before that's even earned, that they start to question your value and. And showing up authentically in a vulnerable and open way where somebody actually knows where they stand with you. But, you know, where's where they stand with you. In the early stages of dating should actually not be in a very secure place. It's like, I like you, I like how this is going. I'm enjoying spending time with you. I like this about you. I enjoy this about you, but I don't know you. And so it's not a given that this is going to still be working for me in three months, but I know that right now I'm enjoying it. And I'm not afraid of expressing and showing that I'm enjoying your company. And I think, you know, something that we all make a big mistake in when we're dating is we. We sort of will invest in somebody, will show our interest, and when we feel either them not reciprocating or them pulling away, we'll almost kind of either double down on it or just completely pull away ourselves because we're afraid of getting hurt. And then we're doing it as a means of getting a response from them. I think that it's. It's kind of about going like, you have my attention for now, and you have my interest for now. And if you, If. If you start to show me that this interest of mine is misplaced and it's not actually found its right home, I'll take it away. And I won't do it to get a reaction from you. I won't do it to get you running back towards me. I'll do it because, like, this isn't interesting to me anymore. And. And that's a really difficult thing to do. But I. I think that that's. That's kind of the. That's the trick, right? That's the thing that we have to do. It's not about not showing that we're interested. It's about knowing when to withdraw when somebody's not reciprocating that interest. And that's very. I think whether or not somebody is emotionally unavailable or emotionally available, there is something very attractive about somebody coming in in a very secure way and being conscious about how they kind of distribute their energy and being. And somebody who goes, well, you've actually shown yourself to not be somebody that I want to keep investing in. So I've pulled away. But it's okay. I don't resent you for that. I'm just. I'm just not interested in this anymore. That's really attractive. Even if you're someone who's emotionally unavailable, that you're like, wait, what? Like, what do you mean you were just able to get over me in five minutes? And, and so I think that's a more interesting, quote, unquote, game to play than to almost be so measured and so restricted about how we come across that we're never really showing ourselves, because I think we just end up pushing secure people away and we end up actually attracting the very people that are going to make us unhappy.

Yeah. Because part of our charisma and our charm is showing interest. Like, that's part of what the. The fun of it is. People get to see the part of us that is having a good time.

And actually, not to interrupt you, in the beginning of our relationship, you know, you and I did not have a linear path to a relationship. But what was always there was a very authentic and clear interest on both sides. There was never any doubt that we liked each other. There was never any. I'm not going to text you. I'm not going to tell you how I feel. I'm not going to, you know, like, there wasn't the commitment in the beginning, but the interest and the sort of expression of feeling was always present.

I always remember when you borrowed a book of mine and you noticed that there were words circled in the book. Do you remember this?

No. Was this Devil in the White City?

I don't know what it may. It may be. It was. But there were words circled. And you. I think you realized, like, maybe you even asked me, like, what. Why are there. What are these words that are circled? And I was like, oh, well, they're words that, when I read it, I wanted to look up because I either didn't know what they meant or because I use them enough. And I think you, like, smiled and I was like, what? And you wrote to me in a text, nothing. It's just one of my new favorite things about you. And it stuck with me because it was always like. It's like one of those flirtatious, warm moments where you show interest, where you don't hold back. Interesting.

So, yeah, I love that story. I didn't remember that.

Yeah, the. But. But it goes to. It's just speaking to your point that it's not. You don't have to hold back, but you saying that isn't an indication of like. And now I've got her. Because if you, as you say, if I start being annoying or frustrating or.

Which you did, you.

You would. You would have your own reaction to that, which is to start to pull back yourself, which you did. Thank you so much for writing in. If you do want to write in, the email address is podcast matthew hussey.com we had another email in this one I really loved. I had to. I had to read this one. It's from Jordan, whose subject line said Matthew AI. Not just for dating. Hello, Matthew. A familiar. I think that was a nod to.

Your if I me. Ah, sorry. Your accent was so good there that I was taken aback for a moment.

Do you pronounce the L in that or. No.

Family.

If you don't say famil.

No, it's family.

Jordan said I wanted to let you know that Matthew AI just gave me some beautiful advice which has nothing to do with dating. I set myself a huge project a couple of months ago to write a book. I just asked Matthew AI for for some advice on overcoming the overwhelm that I felt and generating more motivation as I believe he knows someone who has recently written a book. Referring to me of course. The response I got was just as though I was speaking with Matthew himself. He encouraged, he swore, he said embrace the idea of shitty first drafts. He quoted his inspirations and LaMotte and when I sent him some of mine, he sent them right back. I know this is AI, but it is clearly also Matthew who is speaking. Thank you for your advice. I have completed a good morning's writing after starting out feeling hopeless about doing this. I am currently not dating out of choice, but I'm finding Matthew AI and the Love Life Club to be just as useful in my everyday non dating life. By the way, I think you should all call your love life members emojis given that you love receiving emojis during live streams and because all the Love life members are expressing their emotions daily with each other. Keep up the great work and look out for my book. Big love to you all.

Jordan, that's so lovely.

How cool is that?

I also like emojis.

I don't know about emojis, although I am having fun on live streams asking people to represent their feelings in very random emojis.

Like you just like the idea of someone joining the live stream halfway through and seeing a load of Ren dancing ladies.

I love the dancing lady. That one's my favorite. But also there's one where people just did a load of sushi. There were just thousands of of sushi rolls.

Have you heard? Not to get sidetracked, but have you heard of like how certain emojis are considered like cringe and like has been and par by millennials?

No, by Gen Z.

No as in like. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, by Gen Z. As in millennials. Using those emojis is cringe. I meant sorry.

Yes, I have. I have heard. Do you know what they are, David? Do you know what they are?

I know what they are.

I feel like you'd be more in touch.

I'm also a millennial.

Yeah, you're millennial. We're all millennials.

I know what they are. Why are you not letting me answer this?

Maybe I just don't like the idea that you know and I don't. Well, go on, take a guess. David.

I think like the like Crying, laughing.

The crying, laughing.

The one that's not sideways. The sideways one is cool. The one that's like. Yeah.

So the straight on crying, laughing face is cringe.

Yeah. Which you use.

I'm gonna start using the sideways one.

I use the sideways one. I'm pretty cool though, compared to you.

What are the others?

The red heart.

You use that all the time.

I do. The Dancing Lady.

What color heart are you supposed to use?

I think any other colors.

Any other color is fine. Just not. It's too what? Too on the nose.

I guess I cringe, you know, The Dancing Lady. The flame.

Dancing lady.

The dancing Lady. The flame.

I think the dancing Lady's proper millennial, I reckon. The idea of throwing a little dancing lady, like you're just having a great time with whatever's being said.

The thumbs up considered passive aggressive. And there's a whole petition going around to ban it from the emoji.

There's a. But there's a thousand uses for it. It works just for anything. Anything you want to be like, yeah, I got it. Like, no problem.

Well, no, no. Gen Z think it's passive aggressive. To be fair, there is someone on our team who might listen to this and know who he is, but I don't mean this in a bad way. He always thumbs up my messages and I do feel sometimes like it comes across passive aggressive.

Yeah, we might. If we're thinking of the same person, it might be maybe the thumbs up.

Is passive aggressive and the flames. The flames is considered cringe.

And wow. Just flames cringe.

The famous cringe. There's others, but I can't remember, so.

But what about the croissant?

I don't think the croissant has been commented on yet. I don't think it's that mainstream.

The croissant, I saw it tell you it was only a matter of time. So there is an exercise that we wanted to do with everybody, all of our listeners that Audrey and I have done. Not a big exercise, pretty casual, quick answers, but something that I think it may is a really good time to do this exercise. It's a good time to do it after the first quarter of the year is over. Going into the rest of the year. In one area of this exercise, we both came up with the same answer. So we're going to talk about that. But this is going to be a very important exercise for everybody who wants to just take a moment because there will be some things that have been going your way this year and there'll be other things that haven't is really important to take a moment to just hit reset and this podcast can be that moment. Quick note to anybody who has not got their ticket yet for the Matthew Hussey weekend retreat in October. This is going to be an amazing event. Is in Miami is an essential event for anybody who is looking to work on their relationship with themselves, inner confidence, emotional regulation, and learning how to overcome and change patterns of self sabotage that have been there your whole life. If there are patterns that are getting in the way of you achieving the things you want to achieve or just living life as happily as you can, this is the event for you. This is the deepest work I do. I'm super proud of it. And you can get tickets right now at MH retreat. Go grab them and I will see you in Miami.

Okay, so what's the exercise?

So simp. Very, very simple. Ask yourself what's been going well this year? That step one. And then ask yourself what's not been going so well this year? And of course, this can be related to things that you wanted to do or wanted to achieve or things that were, you know, important to you, some of which may have gone well and others have not. So you start there and you and I can both give our answers to those. I'm curious to know for the listeners, what are yours? Podcastthewhussey.com and then from there we start to ask ourselves, well, why hasn't that thing gone well? So for me, what's gone well is taking care of myself.

I'm really good at that.

I've been pretty good. I've been training. I've been eating fairly well, I would say 70 to 80% of the time, and I'm pretty happy. Like, I'm looking at myself in May and going, yeah, I achieved what I wanted to achieve between the end of last year, where I definitely didn't come away from Christmas feeling good in my body.

You felt like a little Christmas pudding.

Not the words I would have used, but yes.

A little Christmas turkey.

Again, a Yorkshire pudding. Worse. I felt slightly relaxed and my body was like a relaxed fit. And I was like, you know, I want to work on this. So I've done that and I feel pretty good about it. What I haven't done so well is staying in touch with people. And actually I would be even more specific about that. It's not just that I've not done such a great job of staying in touch with people is that I haven't done a good job getting back to people. And that has. I got to a Point where I realized, wow, I'm not happy with the way that I have been in this department. So we can get into that. But what yours before I go on?

Well, when we were talking about this, I asked. You didn't. I was like, what do you think I've done? Well, and what you said, which was actually the thing that came to mind for me was I've done a good job, I think, of working on my mindset around things and trying to stay positive. I think I really started to connect to this idea that our thoughts generate our feelings and our feelings triggers our actions, and our actions dictate our lives and the results we get. And so I started really kind of getting very connected to that chain. And so before, you know. And sometimes, by the way, it's like your feelings get triggered first and then the thought comes, but either way, that ends up having an impact on how you behave and how you show up and therefore the results you get in your life. And so I've been trying to really tackle it at the source and just really being quite strict around who I'm around, the kind of energy I'm around, the kind of things I'm consuming, how much sleep I'm getting, not indulging my kind of. If I'm anxious about something, not letting it almost become this, like, big story that I'm indulging in and ruminating on and actually taking myself out and going for a walk. And I think I've done a good job of that. As somebody who isn't always the best at managing their mental health and anxiety, I've definitely had a lot of struggles in my life in that area, and I feel really proud of the tools that I've built around that. If you're. If you're interested in that subject, we can do a whole episode on all of that. But that would be the part that I think I've. I've done a good job of. And we actually had the same answer of, you know what we haven't done a good job of. Mine is slightly different. I don't think that I've been bad at getting back to people. I think I've been not so great at staying in touch with people back home in England. In England, yes. Yes. Because obviously we live in America and our friends, a lot of our friends and families live in England. And I have some very, very close girlfriends back home who I absolutely adore. And I just don't do a great job of staying in touch with them and picking up the phone on the weekend. And, and I call my mom all the time. But, you know, outside of my mom and my sister, I just, I don't do a good job of texting back and being on the phone and stuff. So. Similar to yours.

So when I started to ask the question around the things around the thing that I wasn't doing well, which is getting back to people of, why is that? Because that's always the important next question. Okay, I haven't been doing this well, let me not shame myself for that. Let me not judge myself for that. Let me just actually approach it with curiosity, like, what's going on here that is stopping me from doing a good job? And the answers to me, when I started looking at this were interesting. And I think whether or not anyone shares this particular thing, I mean, I know some of our listeners will be going, oh, my God, actually, me too. But you might have something completely different you feel you haven't been doing a great job of. I think some of the reasons why I haven't been doing a good job of this will be universal. So aside from just being busy, because that's always one excuse, right? Oh, I'm just really busy. But I would notice that that would still be true at the end of the day. I would still find a reason not to get back to people. Or on a weekend where I did have time, I would still find a reason not to get back to people. And look, part of that was just not being in the right energy, not being in the right headspace. Feeling like almost at the end of a week, I'm really looking for some alone time. But a big part of it was perfectionism. This feeling of I, you know, I realized, and this is not a new pattern for me. In fact, none of the things I'm going to say here are a new pattern for me, but they're a pattern that can take over again if I don't pay close attention. Perfectionism, feeling like I need to send the perfect response is, especially if someone sent me something particularly thoughtful. I feel like I need to send something just as thoughtful back. Or if someone asked me for help on something, I'd feel like I'd need to deliver the best possible answer I could. And if I couldn't give someone the best answer right now, or the most thoughtful or witty text or whatever it may be, however I was judging myself in that particular situation, I would delay it. I would say, I'm going to get back to them at a time when I can do this properly. And doing it properly became a reason not to do it. And now a few hours passes, now a day passes, then three days pass, and all of a sudden, you know, maybe a week's gone by and now I feel guilty. Now I'm like, oh, my God. Now I just seem rude. Of course, the danger is that now I feel like the response has to be even better because I've taken this long to send it. So now that increases the stakes of how perfect I feel like that response needs to be. So perfectionism is a big part of it, as is, as you will have gathered from listening to that overthinking. Overthinking is also a big part of it.

When you say overthinking, what do you mean exactly? What are you overthinking?

I think it goes hand in hand with the perfectionism. Overthinking the response, Overthinking how it's going.

To come across or, yeah, maybe how.

It'S going to come across. I think just. I think it comes back to the perfectionism. Just spending too much time trying to get it right. And honestly, even one of the lessons I've had to relearn many times in my life is the value of just sending someone a message and saying, hey, I got your message. That's so sweet. Thank you. You know, I'm going to work on that thing you said and come back to you or something that even just buys you a bit of time instead of just just being like, I'm going to shelve that message until I can get back to it, which then makes someone often feel unloved. Sometimes at the extreme end of the spectrum, just ghosted. That is something I definitely need to get better at.

Yeah. You know what's coming up for me as you're speaking, because I was actually. Because, like I say, I suffer with the same thing as you. And you and I are very similar in that area. But perfectionism can come from many things, but it oftentimes comes from. It's almost a little bit of a trauma or not a little bit. It can be a trauma response.

Right.

It can be a sort of nervous system response. And what's interesting to me is that, you know, we all, on some level, spend so much of our lives and so much, so many of us, I should say, on some level, spend so much of our lives trying to reverse engineer how we are perceived by people. And I know that I've been so guilty of doing this in my life, and I'm still guilty to this day of I have to really work hard on this. And, you know, it's almost like I need to give the best response, the perfect response, because I need to come across this way. I need this person to think that I am this kind of person. I am a thoughtful person who responds with a thoughtful message. I'm a funny person. I'm an insightful person. I'm an interesting person. And it's an inability to accept that somebody might read an authentic response. We give in a moment that hasn't been overthought and misunderstand us. It's an inability to accept that we might be misunderstood, we might not even be liked by someone. Someone might be like, oh, I don't like this person. I thought their response was short. I thought their response was boring. I thought their response was whatever. I'm, you know, I'm. I'm. I didn't like the way that they responded to me. And we almost. We can't bear the thought that we would be perceived negatively. So instead we try and kind of over control and over engineer the way that we come across to everybody. But I think what's really interesting to me about that is when we do that, what we're actually doing without realizing is we're kind of rejecting ourselves. Because what we're telling ourselves is you showing up as yourself imperfectly because you are a human being who is imperfect, isn't good enough, isn't lovable. It's not safe for you to be like that. You must hide those parts of yourself and instead always project the best version of you that's the lovable version of you. And there's something really dangerous in doing that because I think it just. Yeah. You know, we reject ourselves in the fear that other people will reject us. But why, why do we have to be perfect all the time?

To me, it's a form of social anxiety. Is that fear of people seeing us a way we don't want to be seen, that we're not going to come across the right way, that we're not going to do it perfectly, which we can feel in a room when we're. It's one of the reasons why we struggle to work a room at a party and move around the room as we. We're afraid we're going to say something stupid. We're afraid we're going to be awkward. We're afraid we're gonna do it wrong somehow. And the, the irony about that is we then really pick our moments to do anything. And because whether that's through text or in person, because we then pick our moments, the stakes of those moments go get really, really high instead of just being someone who has more touch points with people. And I think the more touch points someone has with you, the more they have a ability to kind of get the general sense of who you are and your tone and your, you know, your style. And you're. In a way, you're less likely to be misrepresented or misinterpreted because you're. People are getting a sense of you rather than being like, I'm gonna text this person back perfectly, but I'll do it in three days. And then it's like, so much is.

Riding on that text and it's kind of inauthentic. Yes, actually. Because if you're spending that long thinking about it, you're not showing up authentically authentic is not overthought. It can't be this overly produced version of us all the time, because it does become an authentic, like, you know what I mean? When you and I are texting, I'm not thinking about what I'm sending you. I'm like, oh, my God, look at this flower. Approve this thing for work link. And then I'm like, I send you a reel and I'm a laughing, crying face. The sideways one, because that's the cool. Right, right.

I'm glad you don't send me the straight looking one.

No, no, that's. That's just you. But, you know, like, I'm not thinking, how am I coming across? I'm not worried about typos. I'm not worried. I'm just don't care because I feel very comfortable. So I get to show up completely authentically. And I think that there is a kind of an inability in us to do that because we almost don't trust that the other person is going to receive us and accept us in the way that we want to be received and accepted.

What I find so interesting about this is how much social anxiety can. And shyness and worrying about how we're coming across can register as coldness, can register as, in some cases, meanness or indifference or a kind of callousness towards communication where you just don't get back to people and they're like, wow, this person's like, not very nice. And then people get mad at you or they get their feelings hurt. And the great irony of it, at least in some cases, is that it's the complete opposite of what you're feeling.

Yeah. And you get more misunderstood that way than you do by just being yourself and texting back without thinking too much.

Yeah. It's it to me, it goes to the heart of, as you say, our fear of being seen, our fear of just letting our guard down and actually communicating with people. And those are the people we love to be around, are the people that are really comfortable in themselves, and they love connecting, and they don't overthink it. We have someone in our lives who, you know, Billy, who I. One of the things I love about Billy is when he sends a text, he always, like, he'll send an extra line. Like, he won't. And I see him do the same thing in conversation as well when he starts speaking to someone. Where I see sometimes in the past, I've had the instinct to say something and then not say anything else because I'm almost like, you know, trying to quit while I'm ahead. Billy will say one extra thing, and because of that, that person perceives him as 10% friendlier in that moment. And because. Or even 1% friendlier. And because he's perceived as 10% friendlier, they keep talking to him because they feel like he's a very warm and easy person to talk to. And I. These little patterns in life shape our lives so much because you realize. I came to realize over the course of my life how much I held back. And it wasn't because I thought I was better than anybody else. It wasn't because I thought someone didn't deserve to have more of my energy. It was because I was afraid of giving more energy. Like, oh, I gave a little bit. It worked. Quit while I'm ahead. Instead of being, like, being. Having that openness that I'm gonna say something else or I'm gonna ask another question or I'm gonna add one more line of detail. I'm not gonna overthink whether my text was a bit longer than theirs because you're sending a signal to that person. Then I've started to do it differently in my friendships where I'm, like. Where I would have just sent two lines, I'll send a couple of extra ones instead of trying to mirror them. And I know this gets tricky when it comes to attraction, because there's an element of not wanting to invest more than the other person does, and we do need to be careful of that. But we also have to remember that we're creating culture.

I was literally gonna say that. Yeah.

Like, you create the culture.

You set the tone. And actually, you're talking about Billy. I think of my friend Danielle Canty, who I love, and she's somebody who doesn't overthink her messages at all will text me all the time. She'll just text me, like one liner, send me something, whatever. And as a result, I feel like I can be like that with her. There's no pressure in texting her. I don't have to be any which way. And we've grown even closer through the fact that she's very like that and she's very unanxious in her communication.

Well, that's kind of what it communicates, right? Because it's not. It doesn't communicate a neediness. It's not like she's bombarding you and then getting upset with you about not texting back. It's. There's a kind of casualness to. You had to see this. Or I just. Someone says, you know, you send an article or you just send a joke, a little joke or a picture, it actually what it ends up communicating to the other person is I'm not afraid of you. Yeah, I think we communicate a lot with the way we deal with people is I'm afraid of you. I don't want to make a move. Why? Because I'm afraid of you. I don't want to communicate. I like you too much. Why? Because I'm afraid of you. I don't want to send you a message today when you haven't texted me. Why? Because I'm afraid of you. And we think we're claiming power by doing that, but actually, in some way, consciously or unconsciously, we end up sending a message to that person that we. We tiptoe around them with our communication because we're afraid of them, because there's an anxiety there. And then people feel almost like we have too much power or why are they so anxious? Why have they made me so important? Why are they so afraid?

Yeah. Or they just don't feel like they can get close to you. I think, you know, this is such an interesting subject. We could talk about this forever because I think it's so. It does actually leak into so many different areas of life. But I think the kind of, the. The sort of, like my summary, my executive summary of it would be that if you are going into a dynamic where you're already overthinking, how am I going to be perceived by this person? Are they going to like me? Are they going to think I'm too intense? You know, it goes back to the listener question we had earlier of like, you know, showing that you're interested in that, driving somebody away if you're already going into it, almost flinching, and that's having you either hold back or play games or just show up inauthentically to that relationship, whether it be a friendship, someone you're dating, whatever. What you're actually doing is you are, you are almost. You're writing out the. The kind of end of the plot in exactly the way that you don't want it to happen. I said that really weirdly, but like you're kind of. You're creating the outcome that you are actually trying to avoid. We want connection as human beings. We want to be liked, we want to be seen. We want to connect and feel accepted and have a nice time with people and feel safe around people. We want to share. We want to share our lives or friendships or whatever it might be with other individuals. That's like one of the most beautiful things about life. And what we're doing when we're doing that is we're actually blocking ourselves from being able to do that very thing that we crave the most. And so I just think that. I hope that even if you don't struggle, if you're listening to this and even if you're not somebody who struggles to get back to people like Matt and I, maybe you recognize that you do try and control how people perceive you and the way that you speak to them. You do try and control the outcome. And I really encourage people to kind of try what we're trying, which is to try and let go a little bit and just accept that as long as you accept yourself and you know that you're showing up in a way that you're proud and you're being kind and thoughtful, you're gonna sometimes get it wrong. Going to sometimes come across inauthentic or like you don't care or thoughtless or not funny and whatever. Like that's going to happen because you're not overthinking it. So you're going to make mistakes, but the rewards are so great because you actually can connect with the right people.

It's amazing. This conversation really connects me to how much of my life I've spent in self protection mode, playing defense instead of playing offense, and how many more friendships I could have had deeper friendships if I had been in a place of connecting rather than protecting. Like you could go through life connecting or protecting, but you can't do both at the same time. And I think, think my default, without realizing it, has been so much on self preservation and not wanting to end up being the one trying harder or not wanting to end up being the one who's being an imposition or not wanting to be the one who gets the, you know, sent the last text that there's. That that's been unconsciously guiding things for a lot of my life. And I say this as someone who's learned this lesson many times now, but I can slip back into those ways unconsciously. And I think a lot of it in the last couple of months has been perfectionism either not wanting to disappoint people. And you know, I learned that lesson as well that if you're going to disappoint someone, it's better to disappoint them today than a week from now when they've had been wondering for a week whether you're going to say yes or not. Better to disappoint them today. But you know, is my message enough of a message? Have I said the exact right thing or all of those things have I think made me stagnate? And then of course when the messages build up, when emails build up, it creates overwhelm. So that's been a big thing for me. But I think for so much of my life that desire to, to self protect has been driving me and I'm what I have found. And I say this because I think that it is a very, it's been a very liberating thing for me and I think it will be liberating for a lot of people out there listening that when you stop playing defense and you allow yourself to go on offense, all of a sudden your social life and your connections become a bit of a playground because you realize you have a lot more agency to create the culture you want than you realized. You go from being reactive to being proactive to really engaging people to realize that you don't have to wait to see how much effort someone else makes. You can make a bit more effort and you have to live with the uncertainty and the reality that you will be the one who put in a little more in some relationships, not forever because the ones that continuously one sided you'll let go of but what you will start to see is in the ones that can be, can blossom. They will start to blossom because you'll be the one who's actually creating the environment for it to be more open and more loving and have there be more effort. So I'm. I find myself almost newly excited about this, talking about all of this and hopefully you do too. Email us, let us know what this meant to you. I'm really curious whether it's for your love life or for your social life or for your family life. What did this bring up for you email is podcastthewhassey.com use the subject line croissant so that I know it's about this croissant and I'll know what to look out for. And if you haven't already, go and sign up to the event that I'm doing on May 20th, dating made simple. That's going to be an amazing event for your love life. But also, guys, this is just an amazing opportunity to just come and learn. I hope if nothing else, this episode has shown that you're always learning. I'm always learning. I've been doing this for 17 years of my life now. And some people would probably be surprised to listen to this episode and to and to hear that, like, these were some of the things that I'm realizing this year. And as I said, they're not new realizations. But it's amazing how much you can backslide when you're not paying attention to things, when you're not, when you don't have your eye on the ball. And we're always learning about ourselves. So if you are someone who is the same way, where you're like, yeah, I'm not done learning about myself. I can continue, continue to improve. And you really want to find love right now. Come to the event on May 20th. It's free. There's going to be thousands of people there, and it's going to be really, really powerful. Go to lovelifetraining.com to sign up right now, and I'll send you an email with all of the details. Well, thank you so much, Audrey.

Thank you. This was so fun.

Thank you, producer David. And we will see thumbs up. I'm cringing right now.

No, he's just being very passive aggressive.

Classic producer David.

I'm calling hr.

Thank you, everyone. We'll see you next time.