Men Reveal TRUTH About Why They Stay Single

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NMLS 696891. I got my cool life and you're gonna come in and you're gonna try and change it up and make me make the bed and do things and turn my music down. Welcome everybody to the Love Life Podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, Stephen Hussey, Jameson Jordan, and Audrey Lestrat. This is the podcast where we show you how to find the love you want and love the life you already have. Now today we are talking about the subject of commitment. Why is it that so many of us fear commitment? And I suppose I talk about us, specifically as men, but I actually think that there's going to be an enormous amount today that everyone relates to, no matter the gender. So, this is going to be a really raw and honest conversation around the things that prevent us from committing, which might affect you if you're in the shoes of being a commitment phobe, or it might affect you if you are with one. and wanting to know whether there really is any hope of getting this person to want more or whether you're wasting your time completely. It's going to be a practical episode. There's so much in here that I think is going to really speak to people and it's going to be revelatory in terms of the male mindset.

I think it's also worth noting that we are not gathering information from ourselves, but we've actually gone out to the masses and done a survey.

Yeah, we actually put this out on Instagram and got thousands of responses from people. So we're going to read a bunch of those today and use them to support some of our theories on what is really going on with people not being willing to commit. And before we go any further, I also want to make sure that if you are trying to get over someone right now, maybe there was someone this year who you finally woke up to the fact that they're just not going to give you any more. Maybe they broke your heart, maybe they led you on and then disappeared, or maybe it's the end of a long-term relationship. We have a free guide that is all about how to move on from somebody, and it is at moveonstrong.com and this is a video training. It's a free video training. So go over there right now, moveonstrong.com and download that free training I'm just.

Laughing at Jameson saying move on strong.

Because it's do your impression of Jameson.

Saying move on strong move on strong sorry can we get that again moveonstrong.com.

That'S moveonstrong.com apparently I am from Texas when I do moveonstrong.com it's easy to remember just go to moveonstrong.com download your or free guide or watch your free video training.

I think we should get Jamison to read all of our domain names from now on.

It brings me so much joy.

Now, Stephen, you were having a good old rant before we started today.

One of my famous rants.

Yeah, I think we saw, you saw Audrey giving a voice note right as we were starting. And we always say that we like, that voice notes are a nice way to just show another dimension of yourself. It adds a little bit of character to somebody if you receive a little voice note. And then you chimed in.

Very passionately, I might add.

If you are having a lovely conversation in dating with someone, that's absolutely fine. But I find when I'm trying to get information, it's really frustrating to get a voice note. Because if someone gives you an address, a detail, a task, you have to just replay that note three or four times to get everything. So you end up, if it was just there on the page, I could just go, oh yeah, that's what they said. But you end up having to go through the same two minute clip about four times to get all the information.

Now, I feel like this is a pop at me because I was sending you voice notes last night.

Well, you were talking about a specific conversation we were having, but I think it's if someone gives you a bunch of details in a voice note. If someone gives you a bunch of details in a voice note, In a way, I feel like they've been too lazy to write and they're just using the voice note as a kind of like excuse. But it's actually very frustrating to be on the other end of them.

Well, there's an etiquette to voice notes. You don't just, you can't just sit there meandering because that just becomes disrespectful to someone's time. I actually agree with you, Steve. Logistics should be put on the page so that someone can always go back to them without having to listen to the voice note. But sentiment and emotion and the kind of connection, I think, is very, very strong to do by voice note.

If it's just charming or funny or, you know, a chat, that's lovely. But come on, guys, if you're gonna, if you're working, give me, give me things on in paper, you know? Give me some words.

Paper.

Audrey, your response to Steve taking a pop at you.

Do you feel attacked?

I feel so attacked. I'm gonna, this is gonna make no sense because we're not on camera. I'm gonna unleash my Pokemons at you, Steven.

Audrey's holding up some Pokemon. A very, a very, a very harmless Eevee, I may say.

No, I will say I'm a Snorlax on my jumper. Thank you.

Some of us also, Audrey, are very visual learners.

I mean, we're on a podcast right now, and we're pointing to objects and sweaters that no one could... This stuff needs more explanation. You can't just throw stuff out like that. Look, we got an Eevee, the Pokemon, when we were in Little Tokyo last night, didn't we? We bought a little souvenir, and she now sits on our podcasting desk, having a lovely little nap. We'll maybe put a picture on Instagram. If anyone wants to go and check that out on Instagram, follow me. at the Matthew Hussey. And of course, Audrey is wearing a sweater that we bought last night, which is a Snorlax sweater that has, for those Pokemon fans out there, Snorlax is the big giant Pokemon who just basically sleeps the whole time. Which feels very appropriate to your spirit animal.

Yeah.

So anyway, we digress.

To get back to it, guys, what I'm saying is some of us are very visual learners, not I used to go to lectures when I was at Oxford University, Matt, and I'd go out of a lecture and go, that was great. And someone would go, what was it about? And I go, I can't remember all of it, but it was really good because I don't remember stuff I hear, but I remember stuff I read on paper. If I read words, I remember them. I have a very, very good memory, but I don't often remember stuff I hear.

What else can you tell us about Oxford University and your PhD in political philosophy, Stephen?

Well, let me tell you about Very Special Club. No, we'll save that for another day. People are here to learn about love. Dammit.

Well, I just think this probably has served as more of a PSA out there to anyone who's even thinking about leaving Stephen a voice note. Don't expect it to go down well.

Keep them funny, keep them sweet.

And short.

I think Matt, you said a good line, which was, there's no such thing.

As a voice note that's too short. Yeah, there's no such thing as a brief voice note.

When we think we're being brief, we're probably still not being brief. I sent a pretty brief voice note.

Earlier today, so I am the exception to that rule. But I know what you mean. But even that, I bet you was like a minute long. No, it wasn't actually.

How long was it?

I want to know the exact amount of time it was.

I bet you it was a minute. 17 seconds.

17. That one you just left.

No, that wasn't. No.

Oh, that's not the one I was talking about.

Yeah, well, I still left it this morning and it was 17 seconds.

Audrey's pretty Punchy.

I got a 41 second voice note from Audrey last night, but it was fantastic, so.

Oh, yeah. Tell the story, Jameson.

Well, maybe.

Maybe, in fact, we should tell the story.

Yes.

I think, you know, for the sake of the podcast, we'll just say, I have a thing for raccoons. My wife has a thing for raccoons.

Which, by the way, in itself is a weird sentence.

Yeah, okay, so raccoons are cute, all right? And I didn't used to think so, but my wife really loves them, and I'm kind of on board now. But last night, Audrey sends this voice note telling the tale of getting out of her car and seeing two giant fat cats. that were not cats, they were just beautiful, wobbly raccoons stomping around the home ground.

Absolutely, and then he wasn't, when he said fat cats, he wasn't talking about sort of two big, you know, big guys in pinstripe suits smoking cigars, doing Wall Street deals. We are in fact talking about two actual live raccoons that Audrey saw rummaging through the trash cans on the other side of the road, which is a bit of a cliche.

It was so cute.

And it was nice to hear it in a voice note, 'cause it told the story. If she just said, I saw two raccoons, it wouldn't have been as joyful.

But it was a lovely use of the voice note. Yeah, well, thank you, Jamison. And for those of you who are thinking, get on with the show, I would like to say that we got a message from a lovely woman called Victoria, who explicitly told us to not stop the chitchat at the beginning of the podcast, as it's her favorite part. So we're really indulging this, just for you, Victoria.

Do you think she's gonna think the same way after this long sort of voice note excursion we've taken?

This is good dating advice, you know? This is right, this is content.

I mean, fair enough. Well, let the audience decide. We have a review here from iTunes, Impartical. which is quite, I quite like that name. I don't know if she meant to write impractical, but I quite like that it's impertical if that was intentional. She says, a standout podcast. The premise of this podcast is about dating and relationships. However, as an avid listener of the podcast since the early 2010s, this show is so much more than that. I don't exaggerate when I say that my life is actually better because of what I've learned from the thoughtful discussions here. Instead of discussing superficial do's and don'ts and generalizations which have their place, the conversations really look at the underlying fundamentals of moving through life and interacting with others in a compassionate and grounded way. What makes this series unique is that the questions are extremely nuanced and deeply considered, so I walk away with new understanding rather than what to do in this situation. On top of how much I'm learning, I also love the banter and am obsessed with the music. The addition of Audrey has been magic and always look forward to hearing her thoughts. P.S. I'm a huge fan of Steven's humor around the pickle sign off. And then Matt's dedicated effort to transform this into a song. A thought-provoking conundrum. Well, there you go, Steve. That's another vote for pickles. So I think you might just have.

To start saying pickles more often. You know, again, I'm a man ahead.

Of my time, but thank you very much. Very good. We had an email review that came in to podcast@matthewhussy.com this was from Lorna. Lorna. Hello, jams. Of course, jams being the acronym for Jameson, Audrey, Matthew, and Stephen.

You don't need to explain it.

Everyone knows. Everyone knows. Are we that far in?

Yes.

Okay. I feel like that's something we can say on our 100th episode of Jams. I absolutely love the Three Mistakes episode. Only Audrey can say the phrase, an extended booty call, and make it sound classy. Can you say an extended booty call, Jameson?

Extended booty call.

Let's see. That's great. That's the beginning of a horror movie. As for Stephen, the entire Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

That was my interpretation of Audrey's interpretation of my voice.

As for Stephen, the entire island nation of Jamaica, the entire island nation of Jamaica, she says, miss your use of the word pickles. Yes, Matthew, the entire island nation. I did a survey. Love you guys. And yes, I put Jamerson first. Thank you for all of your wonderful advice.

Well, thank you to the island nation of Jamaica. You know, I do it for you. I'm here for you, and we won't let Matt stop us.

Very good.

Well, Well, guys, onto our main topic.

Please.

So we put a post out on social media asking men, what is the brutally honest truth about why you might get scared of committing to someone? And I've pulled out 19 comments from our various different platforms, Facebook, Instagram, and I've identified eight reoccurring themes. What did you say?

I know. I just said, you know, follow us. Follow us on Facebook. Follow us on Instagram. Coach Matthew Hussey on Facebook.

The Matthew Hussey on Instagram. Yes. Follow us. And, yes, I pulled out 19 comments from our various different platforms, and I was thinking I might read them out.

To you guys and just get your thoughts on them. Some of them got my backup. I'm not gonna lie. I don't know. I only know a couple of these that you're gonna read.

A lot of these, I've.

I don't know which ones you've chosen, so I'm excited to hear you get angrier with each one.

I know, Audrey, and she's gonna pick very provocative ones that don't Necessarily, are.

We shine people in the best light?

That's not fair. I do get a bit wound up.

By some of these. I only, listen, there is one that's gonna come. Anyway, I'm gonna just go through them.

And- Our new feature, Audrey Trashes Men.

Hey. I was just gonna say angry Audrey. Pretty good. Go on, please continue.

Who's our first comment? No wonder I trash men. This is what I have to deal with. So, comment number one, Jonathan. Jonathan says, I would say I'm afraid of being changed, to be told that in order to be with someone, I must change who I am.

Thoughts? Well, you will be changed on some level by someone. I think that's the nature of things. You meet someone and you're in some way changed by them. That's actually one of the best parts of a relationship, I should add. I want it I would actually like to change the narrative around it a little bit because that anytime I think that you can mark your life by the moments that someone who changed it came into your life. There are all people, there were people throughout our life, friends, colleagues, bosses, people that we fall in love with that change us in some way that we're really grateful for. So let's be clear, there are relationships where one plus one equals three and you're happy for the changes. What Jonathan is talking about is the kind of change that happens when someone starts to strip us of the things that we feel are fundamentally us and crucial to who we are and what we like to do and how we like to live. And I think that We're all a little afraid of that. Usually we come to a relationship with a little bit of trauma from having been in a relationship before where someone did, it did feel like someone robbed us of something that felt like it was fundamentally us. And we found ourselves treading on eggshells with our own personality and having to sort of amputate crucial parts of ourselves in order to make this other person happy. And then when the relationship ended, we feel less of ourselves and we feel like we're having to find ourselves again in the process of rebuilding.

And the truth is also it is very difficult to change, right? So often if somebody's feeling that pressure, like you need to change, it's not like, oh, I'm afraid I'm gonna just change and I'm gonna be so different and lose myself. Sometimes it's just like, I'm afraid this person is just gonna sit there constantly resenting me because, you know, they're just always thinking of these ways that that I should change and, you know, I'm not gonna completely change. Like, I think of that scene in Before Midnight where Ethan Hawke's character is walking with Julie Deply, and Julie Deply asks the question, like, if you could change anything about me, what would it be? And Ethan Hawke's character kind of knows what she's getting at, and he's just like, I think I would change the fact that you want to change me all the time, you know, or something like that, where it's like he knows that she's sitting there sort of ruminating on, like, these little habits he has and all these things. And he's just kind of feeling that resentment.

Yeah, because it really does feel, I mean, it is the antithesis of being accepted. And being accepted is what we really want. So, yeah, I think that that's an interesting one by Jonathan. I get it.

Yeah, I feel like it's more about being afraid of being judged than being changed. like, I do. I'm gonna get judged for my choices or the things I like to do with my time, my lifestyle, like my habits.

Don't you think that being judged is a disguised fear of. Of not being accepted? And if I'm not accepted, then I don't feel worthy. So what I'm really afraid of when I don't want to be judged is I'm afraid that. the things that make me me, my idiosyncrasies and eccentricities and the little things that I enjoy doing are going to be seen as weird or stupid or just, just not normal. And that therefore I'm not going to be accepted by someone. Like, behind the fear of being judged is just the fear of not being accepted, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And then I think the extra fear might be someone thinking, maybe I'm not going to be strong enough to defend the way I like things. There's two things. There's like, there's wanting to keep the things that make you you, and there probably is a bit of fear of some of these things I probably will have to compromise a bit to properly have a relationship with someone. And that's also a reason probably people get fearful of getting in relationships these days, where they're used to having their own autonomy a lot. and they think, yeah, I'm gonna have to live in a bit of a less selfish way. I'm gonna have to compromise some things to be with someone. And that's also scary.

You know what? It's interesting you say that because another comment from Sabrose was being afraid of losing it, not sure what it is, and to become a giant pleaser and forget my own well-being in the process, which I think is similar to what you're talking about, Stephen.

Exactly. I think sometimes there's a preemptive defense where people are like, I know I'm going to be a pleaser in this relationship. I know I'm going to want to care about the other person, and I might end up forgetting myself or or doing things that aren't me because I am got a good heart, because I care, because I just need to please someone. And they're kind of like, I don't want to do it because I know I'm going to feel that pressure to please them.

But that's so interesting, isn't it? Because even there is just a crucial insight that what I'm disguising as a fear of you changing me is really just the fear that I cannot trust myself. Yeah. That's what it comes down to. and people don't say that, right? People say, oh, I don't want you coming into my life and changing me. It's like it's sort of this feel, it's almost like a rock star excuse, you know? I've got my cool life, and you're gonna come in and you're gonna try and change it up and make me make the bed and do things and turn my music down and whatever, and instead, what it really is is I'm actually so distrusting of myself and my ability to have boundaries that I don't even want to develop feelings in the first place because I can't trust myself when I do. It's fascinating.

Really interesting. And I would like to add briefly that I think the point you made earlier about the fear of not being accepted is huge because I think there's a lot of insecurity when you're When you're afraid of commitment, you tend to, that tends to be interwoven with insecurity somewhere. And the insecurity with a lot of, in a lot of these responses that I think is popping up is, if I allow myself to be too vulnerable, I will basically be crushed, you know.

Is there another comment like that?

Yes, in fact there is. The next comment is from Robert. and he said, because commitment means eventually being known in my vulnerability, which is a huge reason why people are scared of commitment, don't you think?

Yes. Look, I think that it's the more distant you keep someone, the more it feels like you have total control over the situation. you're essentially controlling the elements in your life and minimizing the variables. And one of the greatest variables you can introduce into your life is someone you care about and someone whose opinion you care about and someone who you let your guard down in front of. So if you're afraid that it's going to be hard to control your feelings of rejection, if that doesn't go well, then you just don't wanna invite that possible rejection in, in the first place.

Audrey, do you think that this is a uniquely a guy's fear or do you think that women go through something like this too? 'Cause I'm just reading this and I'm just, I am actually curious because it is, because commitment means eventually being known in my vulnerability. Yeah, is that uniquely a male thing or do women go through something similar?

I mean, I think a lot of the things that are popping up are actually unisex. You know, I definitely think that people who are afraid of commitment are just afraid of letting someone in. People just find it hard to be vulnerable. I have a very, very dear friend who is someone who has struggled for a really long time to, to, to sort of let someone in, and she finds the process very uncomfortable. She's obviously overcome a lot of that, but She's very much a woman in her 30s and it's taken her a really long time and a lot of work, a lot of work to be able to be vulnerable enough to let someone in. So I don't think it's unique to men at all. I think the issue, and I suppose this is just my thoughts from reading it, is that society almost propagates the message of if men don't commit, they can remain a playboy. And as a result, it sort of, it allows people's insecurities around commitment to be justified if they wish to follow them. But eventually, whether it happens at 30, 40, 50, 60, most people do want to find a partner to share their life with. And those things have to be overcome in some way, shape or form.

Well, the reason I, I guess, because Matt, you keep mentioning this word control or this theme of control keeps popping up. And it's just, It just occurred to me and I guess I haven't thought enough about it, but historically, obviously, women have given up everything control in whenever they join a marriage or whatever, just throughout history. But I guess I wonder, has that flipped? Men feel like they're giving up control? I don't know. It's just an interesting, it just feels sort of ironic to me that men are worried about losing control when it's just like, it feels like women give, have given everything to relationships historically in the past.

Well, I think as well, the theme, and I will go on to talk about more of this, but the thing that's going on here, the theme that, and this is me being very candid, there's a lot of men here who are essentially saying they haven't met anyone they like enough or find attractive enough or want to commit to. And they're sort of, instead of saying, oh, maybe that's because the people that I think I should be with don't want me. They're saying, oh, it's because, you know, like everyone else is just controlling and wants to pin me down. And it feels a little bit to me with some of the comments from these men personally that it's just a bit of a kind of let's blame women and how crazy they are and how commitment is evil versus the kinds of things that are holding them back and the ways that they are actually viewing themselves versus the reality. Does that make sense? Am I sounding harsh?

No, I think there's absolutely truth to that. I think it's easier to, it's easier to have someone who, for example, you didn't have boundaries with, who you kept in your life too long, who then kind of, it's kind of scarring when you have someone who makes your life really, really difficult. and brings a lot of bad energy to your life. It's a scarring thing and it's sort of easy to draw a conclusion from that. The easiest thing is to just draw a conclusion and say, women are crazy. Women are controlling. Women want to take away this from you. They want to take away that. It's easier to do that than to say, well, why did I allow that to happen? why did I choose someone like that in the first place? Come to think of it. Why have I chosen multiple people in my life like that? Those aren't the only women that exist. So why is it I keep gravitating towards women that make my life really hard? What's going on with me that I'm doing that? Because anyone who has spent any time with people in life knows that women aren't all like that. That there are so many different types of women. And there are women at the opposite end of the spectrum for that guy. There are women that he would be afraid of because they wouldn't need him nearly as much as those women that were trying to control him constantly and micromanage everything he did because they were afraid or they were jealous or they had a fear of abandonment. To go for a different kind of woman who didn't have those fears would be to put himself in a situation where he may feel vulnerable. He may end up feeling like the crazy one who's worried they're going to leave or that he doesn't need him and is trying to control them. So I think that a lot of the time we're afraid of being in the very position of the people we've been complaining about from our past.

Yeah.

So we keep putting ourselves in the driver's seat in a way where it's easier to be the one complaining than to be the one who's being complained about, because that really sucks. And, and to me, a lot of, you know, you say there's guys that they're afraid to give up the Playboy lifestyle, blah, blah, blah. We can come on to that, but I think that Culturally, it's more damaging to a lot of men's self-esteem to find themselves in the position of feeling like the one who loves too much or the one who's needy or the one who's chasing than for a lot of women who are sort of used to wearing their heart more on their sleeve. who have actually been raised to be able to talk about their feelings, who have been in, not all women, but a lot of women have been in friendships that encouraged openness and vulnerability. Well, huge numbers of guys have never had that. Yeah. They've not grown up in that. So to find themselves, it's like socially acceptable for a guy to find himself in a relationship where she's crazy. And she's so frustrated, oh, here she is. Of course she's called me, I've got five missed calls from her in the last hour. It's socially acceptable for that to be the case and for him to play the together one, the one who doesn't have all those feelings. But society doesn't typically reward men who are feeling like they're in the vulnerable place. They're so in love and she's not. They're the one who's worried that she's out having a great time and and he's getting jealous that that's not, that's not that none of that fits with the archetype of the masculine guy, of the guy who's bold, who of the guy who knows what he wants, the guy who's in control. Like when you think of the archetype of the, when someone describes a woman as sexy, you probably, most people don't think of someone who's in control and. And not too attached and doesn't. And it's completely bold and knows what she wants and whatever. Like, these aren't. They may make a woman sexy, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that those are the things that are described. Whereas for a guy, it's always described in a certain masculine stereotype. or it's typically, I should say, described in a certain masculine stereotype that he's afraid he's gonna lose if he gets into a relationship. And all of a sudden, he doesn't feel controlling in control anymore because he has a lot of feelings. Yeah.

There's sort of a narrower band for what counts as an attractive man. You know what I mean? There's like a narrower, a more. A more defined archetype.

Let's keep going through some of these comments. What else do we have?

So, this comment, I'm going to keep anonymous because Angry Audrey might come out potentially. I'll try and rein her in. So, somebody said, honestly, question mark, because someone better may come along. Now, there were a few comments back and forth, as you can imagine, this kind of you know, ruffled up a few feathers. And a woman said, you know, she argued that maybe that might be down to him not investing in anybody in a meaningful way and as a result not feeling like anybody was good enough. And he went on to say, I think that approach makes a lot of sense from a female standpoint, especially if they want a family. That doesn't apply so neatly to men because they've got no biological clock to consider. and also tend to become more eligible with age. They can waste 20 plus year and end up with a better looking partner than their high school sweetheart. Thoughts?

I was actually going to ask if the choice one came up because I would have been surprised if it didn't, if someone didn't say, because it does seem to be more of a hallmark of the time we're living in where people are like, it's too hard to fix on anyone because who knows if I've got the best partner yet?

And look, I think that that applies to men and women. Obviously there's a uniquely male spin that he is trying to put on this from a man's point of view. The question is how much, I suppose, if we feel that that's interesting to talk about, how much is that a valid point of view? Obviously it's not true that men have no biological clock to consider. That's just biologically false. They have a longer window of time and that absolutely creates a kind of imbalance between men and women in terms of the fear that can creep up for women and the urgency that can creep up for women sooner than it does for a lot of men. That doesn't mean that they're... that does not mean that men are left without any fear of being left behind or not fiting to some kind of timeline that they had in their head from a young age, because many men have that exact same fear. Many men hit a certain age, and I'm not talking about the age where they suddenly feel like they're going to become infertile. I'm talking about an age where just men start to feel like, oh, I really thought I'd be with someone by now. I really would have liked to have been with someone by now. And I'm still not. I always pictured that I would be by now. So just because men have a longer biological window for having kids. It doesn't mean that they don't still have a certain psychology around feeling like they wouldn't, they would have liked to have met someone already. The idea that men become more eligible.

With age, it's subjective to this particular person. And I would argue many women would disagree with that statement.

There's no guarantee that this particular guy is becoming better with age.

I mean, if you're Richard Gere, maybe you're gonna, you know, retain your looks forevermore, but I don't believe that every single man on the planet just gets better with age. I think that's a total nonsense. It's completely misogynistic rhetoric.

Well, I don't think any of us have a hard time kind of conjuring an image of a lot of older women we know being in better shape than the older men we know. Like, that's certainly true for a lot of people in my life, is that there's like a youthful kind of taking care of themselves that happens with a lot of women that guys seem to just go completely off-piste yeah.

Well, to me, I think what he's getting at here is status, right? And I think you could argue that a lot of a guy's status, I would say more of a guy's status according to culture, can be found in money. And that can happen more with age.

I think he's talking about both.

I think he's talking about both.

You know, like if you take the holiday, right, there's a moment where was, what's her name?

Cameron Diaz.

Cameron Diaz. Cameron Diaz is talking about the guy she's dating who has had an affair with the secretary or someone at work, I can't remember. But she says, you know, I'm getting older by the minute and getting, you know, I'm stressed and aging and he's getting cuter with every year that goes by. And she's talking about how unfair it is. And that, I think, is a kind of widely held stereotype amongst a lot of people that it's like the Silver Fox idea of a guy, which albeit is probably much more true in theory, in the abstract, than it is in reality.

The myth of George Clooney.

Yeah, exactly. There's like five George Clooneys.

The amount of people that he's kept out of relationships over the years because they thought they were going to age like George Clooney.

And then they made a bad bet.

Yeah.

But yes, the idea of the Silver Fox versus the aging woman is a stereotype that's been around, well, for as long as the idea of men being attracted to younger women. And I think, look, let's just be real about a couple of things, because otherwise people are going to, I think, accuse us of kind of skirting around the issues. Is it easier for a guy to date someone half his age than a woman. Or let me put it a different way, because I think if you're talking about just sex, a woman can easily have sex with people a lot younger, and a lot of women have experienced a lot of attention from much younger men. But is it easier for a guy to have an actual relationship with someone half his age than for a woman? Maybe. Maybe. Because we know that there is often an attraction. I'm trying to vet this as I'm saying it to make sure it's true. But there's we obviously know there's an attraction that often happens from younger women towards older men. That's not, I don't think, as true. the other way around, other than the kind of fetishization of older women that happens amongst some younger men who.

I disagree with that. Sorry. Just that statement.

Well, can you name me as many relationships that exist? But if you just think of relationships, you know, that exist between men and women who are half their age or women and men who are half their age. Can you really name me as many?

Well, yes, I actually can name you a couple of relationships. I think I know just about as many.

Do you think that if we scoured the celebrity archives of relationships going on, do you think we'd find more of the former or the latter?

No, no, no, no. I agree with you that societally it is absolutely more acceptable for it to be the other way around. But again, I think we have to Honestly, I think the way society is geared towards men has so much to answer for in the way that we think things that what we normalize and don't normalize. And I think being a hot, sexy, older woman dating a guy ten years younger is there is what? Why would a why would a younger guy not be attracted to a hot, sexy, older woman the same way that you are?

Because I think if he's projecting out 20 or 30 years, that plays on his mind. in a way that it doesn't for a lot of women who are dating older men.

I don't know if that's true. It does. I think it does play on women's mind who are dating older men. If your, if your partner is older, you're worried about the fact that you're not going to age at the same rate and that they'll leave you sooner.

I agree with that. I agree with that either way around.

Exactly.

But if you take the idea that would you Do you agree with the idea that men often are more visual creatures?

Yes, of course.

So if you agree with that, doesn't it stand to reason that you're more likely to suffer the consequences of an age difference if you're an older woman dating a younger man than if you're an older man dating a younger woman?

Well, I think that entirely depends on how you age, how well you take care of yourself and the part you play in the relationship.

But even that is a concession. because what you're saying is if you take care of yourself, you might get away with it. In other words, if you keep your looks very much intact, you might get away with it.

But I really think that you're underestimating how important looks are to women, too.

I'm not for one second. Trust me, I've seen how shallow women can be.

Of course they are. We all are. We're all visual creatures. We all like nice, pretty things. And.

If you then factor in it, if you think on some level men are more superficial, then I don't see how it wouldn't be true that age differences would affect women more than men.

I think biologically, men are always going to be attracted to women who are more fertile looking, AKA younger. I think that's true. Don't get me wrong.

But then once you've said that, there's kind of, you've kind of made that concession already. So that what you're saying is that there is going to be a more difficult situation for an older woman dating a younger man than an older man dating a younger woman.

But I don't think it means that older women are no longer attractive and it doesn't say that.

I didn't say that. But that's, it is to, it is to a accept that there is a difference once you've said that men are more visual creatures.

But I also then, if you're bringing it back to what this person is saying, the reality is that, you know, we have our animal instincts, which are biological evolutionary instincts, which if we listen to, we would live very, very unhappy, miserable and violent lives. And when you have someone who's writing something like that, to me it screams that they're just not evolved enough to realize that you know, just they're obviously putting all of the value of their partner in the way that they look and how youthful they are. And I am of the opinion that of course an older man will look at maybe even a 16 year old girl and be like, she looks nice and then go, oh God, she's 16, I'm a pervert. I'm sure that happens a lot, don't get me wrong. But there's a difference between actually shaping your life around that and just being able to appreciate that we are ultimately animals in the way that we see things. And what I would argue is that society has an enormous role to play in what we end up normalizing. And women have been told that after a certain age, you become irrelevant. And that's society. Whereas I would like to put forward the argument that if people stop thinking like the way he's thinking and were more involved in their way of thinking, it would allow for both men and women to date people who were younger than them in a way that's socially acceptable and would in turn make it more recognized and attractive to everyone.

I think that you're trying to fight a battle on two grounds and that's what's creating issues because your kind of frustration at what he's saying about looks, which, and I, by the way, I think that this person has it all wrong. but I think it's important to acknowledge what someone is saying and where the argument has, where, where what someone is saying is coming from some kind of seed of something, some seed of Truth, so that you can then actually properly put it to bed.

And whether or not it's a seed of Truth, it's a truth for him. I mean, as we asked, we We asked guys, like, the brutally honest reasons, and this is what he said. So it is worth just diving into, like, well, where is this coming from for him? And Audrey, you might be right. I mean, it could be coming from a toxic societal, cultural thing, but we should at least acknowledge that this is a seed that's going through, you know, not just his mind.

You're right, I will rain angry Audrey in.

No, but I think that the point that you're making is really, really important, which is that what this really comes down to is what is someone choosing to value? I'm not someone who thinks, like this guy, that it's a good idea to waste 20 years, as he puts it, and then end up with someone, quote, better looking than your high school sweetheart, which to me implies extremely young. right? In the way that he's phrased it. I'm not saying that's a good idea. I think that you pay a certain price. There's no free lunch in life. There's a bargain to be made for everything. If you give up a long-term relationship and you trade that in for just youth, superficial beauty, then you're now with someone you have no history with. You're now with someone who's probably not on your intellectual level or certainly not on your life experience level. So, you know, you're gonna have less to talk about, less to connect on, less to relate on.

I mean, there's an endless list of people who have been embarrassed or punished for making that trade-off.

Yeah. And by the way, as an older guy dating someone half your age, you're also more susceptible to being left because they have time. They have time, and they may trade up because they may decide that, you know what? When I dated this guy at one point, he was hot and, you know, at a certain age that I just felt like was older man hot, and now he's just old man. And, and I'm not as interested. And, oh, and by the way, I've got this 40 year old hitting on me over here, and he's he's pretty attractive and interesting, and maybe that's right for me. If you're, I do believe that if you put yourself on the older end of an age gap in either direction, there's, there, there are fears that you could legitimately have around that, and men aren't excluded from that. And if you choose for looks, if that's the thing you optimize for, then you make your bed because you might have someone with lesser values, you might have someone with less character, you might have someone who's not as kind, you might have someone who's one with you because of your status. You're gonna pay a price for that, either in loss of connection in the relationship or in the fact that you're more levable as an older man who only got someone because you had some status and some money and you were older and wiser and had something about you in that respect. Like you're more levable. So you pay a price there in insecurity. you, you. There's always a price to be paid. And that's what this person who wrote this comment, regardless, I don't. This is why I don't. I don't. It's almost, like, not in that interesting to me to get hung up on the kind of anthropological side of things, of, like, the differences between the sexes in this way, because I actually think that some of the things he's saying, there's a grain of. There's a grain of accuracy in some of them, which is why he feels so Justified in what he's saying. But what I want to say to him is, dude, you're gonna be so unhappy. Like, you have so missed the point of what's gonna make you happy. And those guys that settled for this woman who, God forbid, is aging alongside him, you know, guess what? He didn't lose. He won. If he's in a great relationship with someone who's building a life with him and an unbelievable teammate and someone who is having great sex with him because they know each other well and they know each other's bodies and they know what each other like and it feels connected and he won. He won. You think he lost and you're the one who's gonna suffer from that, not him. You're the one who's gonna suffer from spending your life chasing this thing that can't be had. It's like chasing a drug high. It can't, you cannot get it. It's the receding horizon. You can't grab onto it. You can't have it. You're always chasing that high. You can't own it. And it's going to make you deeply unhappy. And so that, to me, is my problem with his comment, is not discussing the anthropological inaccuracy of it. It's that, You've just so got it wrong, brother. And it's gonna make you so unbelievably unhappy.

Also, regardless of gender, I think everyone in this age can relate to-.

Sorry, Audrey. Also- Needed to tell me she'd never love me more.

Also, regardless of gender, everyone in this age, I think it is more relatable than ever that people are afraid to hone in and pick one thing. I could have a different job, I could have a different life, I could live in a different place, I could have a different partner. Never before have we had such a smorgasbord of potential choices. If you are privileged and fortunate enough to have that kind of life. But many people didn't have those kind of choices 50 years ago to trade in partners, to think about completely different people they could choose. So I do think even regardless of gender, that is a modern conundrum a lot of people face. It's like, oh, should I be with this kind of person? Maybe there's a completely different kind that I'd be happier with.

And you're not just competing with other partners, you're competing with other lives, right? So we've never had so much potential to travel and to do different kinds of jobs and to have a different kind of existence. We're not, we're not condemned to kind of staying in our hometown and doing the normal path, the normal job, the structured way of going through life. So you're competing with life as a yoga teacher in Bali. You know, like you're, that's what you're competing with is everything all the time. And that's what happens in Eat, Pray, Love.

That's what happens in Eat, Pray, Love. She is existentially bored and bereft and leaves and is like, maybe I'll be happier in Italy, Bali or. Wherever else she goes, India. But that's the thing.

And that, by the way, that has to be separated, as to me, from the kind of extreme end of a guy who just can't stop shagging around and can't stop finding, quote, the younger model and just can't give up his life as a player. I do think that, although that may be just a more extreme end of the spectrum of the same spectrum, I do think that has to be separated from the just general feeling that a lot of people have, men men and women that I'm afraid of making the wrong choice. I'm afraid that this life isn't better than this one. I'm afraid that I'm not on the right path. That's a kind of existential fear we all have when we look at our limited time and we worry that we're going to pick the wrong path and that the deeper we go down the wrong path, the harder it's going to be to reverse out of it again. And the more we're going to hate ourselves for having wasted time. And make no mistake, every single one of us, most people at least, have been in the wrong relationship and felt, had that feeling of, like I wasted time and it didn't feel good and I don't want to do that again. And so a lot of people bring that fear of wasting time to the next situation. And of course, if you couple that with the fear that once I develop feelings, it's even harder to get out of the wrong thing, then you have an awful lot of high stakes going into committing to anybody. And one of the things that we talked about in this week's video is that with people like that, and I say this week's video, the, for those of you that only listen to the podcast, of course, we release a video on YouTube every week that.

Follow us.

Huh?

I said, follow us.

Yeah, follow us. Subscribe. I.

Very subtle, guys.

Good.

What we talk about there is that for these kinds of people, there are actually things that we can do to influence what they do, their thoughts around commitment, their behaviors around commitment. I talk about this in one of our programs. Audrey and I recently did a private kind of session with some of our members where we talked about the fact that I had some fears around commitment, that Audrey was amazing at navigating and influencing, which, of course, was the thing that led to me proposing, which is something that kind of a couple of years before that, I was never, I was in no way in the right mindset to be able to think in those terms. So that's. And, oh, and I should say in that video, we talk about where you can actually learn more practically about what you can do to influence the situation with someone who's not a bad person. They're not. coming from a toxic place. They're not coming from a place that would make Audrey angry. They are just someone who's struggling a little bit. And what can you do if you found the right person, but they're struggling a little bit? If you want to go somewhere now that can help you with that, please go here. It's called getthefreetraining.com is something that really will help you with this. And it will help you learn there's a certain language to persuasion, there's a certain language to influence, especially in a situation where it's those fragile early stages of dating. And this particular video training is from my program, Attraction to Commitment, which the entire program is about how to go from being casual with someone to being committed. But this is like a bite-sized video portion of it that you can have for free, and it takes All of the stuff we're talking about now and debating sort of intellectually, and it makes it practical for you so that you know how to create more commitment with someone you like. Go over to getthefreetraining.com to watch that now because it really is very powerful and it's taken from an entire program I have on this subject.

So, we might be running out of time, but let us know if you enjoyed these because we have way more where that came from and we can go through and do the second part of this episode if that's something that people people would like to hear about and if they want to hear me getting angry again.

New segment, Angry Audrey. She's Audrey and she's angry.

Let us know at podcast@matthewhussie.com.

We have.

An email review here from Melanie who says hello. She has emailed in of course to podcast@matthewhussie.com I am writing to thank jams for the podcast, blogs, videos and Love Life Club. I've been meeting people for nearly half a year after I transitioned out of a marriage and into co parenting. I discovered the blurry world of dates and situations and more that can exist in this era. The good, the bad, confusing and colorful realities. Matthew's content taught me why I should have standards and how I can express it and many more lessons You will bring humor and sincerity to important ideas, and you are transforming me. Thank you for the opportunity to giggle about girdles and overcome fears. I'm addicted. Well, that's just wonderful.

Now, you shouldn't giggle about Matt's girdle.

I don't wear a girdle, Steven. At best, sometimes I wear a waistcoat, or as Americans would call it, a vest, which, yes, acts as a sort of semi-girdle. It's a girdle light.

The lady doth protest too much.

We don't girdle shame. Well... Not on this podcast.

What's the word of like, you know, outing someone who doesn't wanna be outed? We shouldn't be girdle outing. So we have this new segment of the podcast that we've been talking about for a while now. I can't even remember if we've been talking about it publicly or just kind of behind the scenes. But it's called Audrey in the Archives. And we thought that, you know, once an episode, we would send Audrey back into the archives of our programs, both old and new, to find one tidbit of practical advice that she really liked and wanted to bring to the podcast. And we're not going to know what she brings. It's going to be something that is just going to be a surprise to us all. So I I want to give this an introduction. Okay. What would you like to say?

Audrey in the archives.

Well, now I was thinking something a bit different, Steve, and I sort of imagined more Audrey kind of going down in an elevator to sort of a, you know, a cave of wonders of all of our content, you know, sort of something Harry Potter-esque, you know, like how they go down in Gringotts Bank.

Wait, is this going to get an actual jingle?

A creaky old chest opening.

Well, you'll like this, Steve. I've actually found a piece of music for it.

Oh my God, that's amazing.

And an intro for this, for Audrey in the archives. So here we go, as we introduce Audrey in the archives. Let us all wait patiently while Audrey lights the elevator that will take her down into the subterranean archives of knowledge from years past, each floor below ground level containing the wisdom of different programs we've created over the last 15 years. Hear her now, as her magical elevator takes its tour through 15 years of ancient spells for everything from romance to happiness, to retrieve the secret scroll that most catches her eye today, containing something crucial that may help bear us hence on our journey in love and life. She'll be back soon. And when she returns, we will discover what caught her eye. But look, here she comes back now, back to the surface. Let us see what it is she carries.

I cannot believe you put that together. Okay, I did. I really, that was amazing. What's really funny is that earlier this morning I could hear that music and I was like, what is he doing upstairs?

I thought you were something important, obviously.

Yeah, I didn't realize you were creating.

So what did you bring back for us?

Well, what I found in the archives this week was a bonus secret scroll from the How to Talk to Men program. which I think is one of your most popular programs. It was in response to somebody's last minute request to see you. So if somebody asks you out on a date the very same day, so say they message you at 1:00 p.m. and say, Hey, wanna hang out tonight? Or, what are you up to tonight? Let's do something. You know that kind of message. You reply saying, you,'re sweet for thinking of me, although I already have plans tonight. It would be great to get together soon though. Let's see if we can make plans in the future. Last minute doesn't always work for my schedule. I loved that message and I'll tell you why. Well, because it's got, it's lovely, it's warm, the whole youe're Sweet for Thinking of Me. You've already got plans tonight. You're not saying, but I don't want to see you because it's last minute. The reason you're not seeing him is because you're very busy, important and popular and you have an amazing life. and you say it would be great to get together soon. Let's see if we can make plans in the future. That is putting the ball completely back in their court. And it has an edge of, I don't really care whether we see each other or not, because ultimately you've not got my attention because this is very low effort. And last minute doesn't always work for my schedule is a very strong, powerful boundary, which is basically saying, Don't ask me out on the same day again. And if you want to see me, you're going to have to make a little bit of forward planning. I think this message is amazing. I'm going to read it one more time. You're sweet for thinking of me, although I already have plans tonight. It would be great to get together soon though. Let's see if we can make plans in the future. Last minute doesn't always work with my schedule.

There it is, Audrey in the archives. taken from our program How to Talk to Men, which of course was written by both Stephen and I and has been one of our most historically popular programs because of how practical it is. Obviously that is available at our website howtogetttheguy.com well, I want to do a quick review from iTunes. and then we'll do our listener question to wrap up today. This was from Charity Lynn who says, I genuinely love the show. The banter between everyone is so great. I do miss being called a pickle. Stephen, call people pickles for God's sake. They're dying out here.

You came in and banged the iron fist down.

So, well look, this is me.

I'm demanding their freedom.

I'm coming back to you hat in hand, pickle jar in hand, and saying, please, can we have a pickles for the people out there?

Well, my pickles, peaches, puddings, plums and pears. Hello. He's added- We're back, baby.

He's added plums. Can we, Steve, can we have- I'll.

Add a pee every single time.

Can we have some sort of, when Christmas rolls around, can we have some sort of Christmas edition of that that really takes us through a festive menu?

Absolutely. Tasting menu.

I love it. Well, Audrey, what is our listener question for today?

So, our listener question is from Rebecca.

Now, Stephen, how do people send in listener questions?

You can send in questions to podcast@matthewhassi.com.

Podcast@matthewhassi.com Sorry, Audrey, what were you saying?

The listener question was from Rebecca and it says, Hi Jams. I've been a loyal listener for a while now but struggling to put your wisdom into action. The background on my situation is I am separated since October 2021 and recently ventured back into the dating scene. I have abandonment issues as my husband left me. As well as this I feel I am disorganized in my attachment style. I have an incredible connection with guys via chat and then we plan to meet up and then close to the day I start panicking. I get anxious and I just can't seem to calm myself. I self-sabotage and I tell myself that I will eventually end in heartbreak or figure out a way to convince myself that they aren't all they are cracked up to be and by the end I cancel the date. How do I stop this destructive cycle? I realize I'm hurting others, my potential dates and also myself in this madness. It's happened a few times and I have now taken myself off the dating apps to reevaluate myself and to also attend to any of my issues. I know that fear is the root of it, but I'm not sure how to move through it with grace and ease. Thanks for all of the wandering wisdom you share, the humor you all bring to my life, and the accents from abroad. They are lovely to listen to on my walks back with my black Labrador. Thanks, Rebecca.

Look, Rebecca, I totally understand that this has become a pattern for you right now. And when something becomes a pattern like that, it tends to just get wired up a certain way. What dates mean to you now is something very high stakes. And what I want you to do is really lower the stakes of it and treat it as just this really is Just me going to have an exchange with someone, have fun. And if it isn't fun, and if it doesn't feel good, then it's not going to be right. So I don't need to be anxious in this way, because so much of anxiety is trying to control something. I'm trying to control the elements here. I'm trying to control whether this person rejects me. I'm trying to control, I want to beat them to the punch. I'm trying to control whether they end up being someone that I want to be with. I'm trying to control my feelings that it's all not going to pan out if I develop feelings for this person. Instead, we can just go to a place of saying, I don't need to control any of this. My only job is to show up to that room with that person. and to have an experience, an exchange with another human being. I don't need to sell this person on anything right now. I just need to go and have this experience. This is an experience of life that I am going to go and have. Audrey and I did a race recently that was a hundred laps, and if I decided I'm only going to do that race if I can complete it. Then I lose out on so much that's great about running the race anyway. The experience of it, the fitness I'll get just by doing whatever I can do, the interaction I get with other people on the race, the chance to visit a new place that the race was taking place in, the chance to have a bonding experience with Audrey. If I only went on the condition that I can complete the race, then I'd be missing out on so much. Your brain is saying, if this doesn't all end up in being the great love of our lives, then let's not do it. And of course, there's no way of knowing that. And so your anxiety takes over and the stakes get so high and you say, okay, I'm just not going to do it. It's all too much. Instead, just say, you know what? This is just an exchange with another human being. And if it's right, it will go to stage two. and if it's right at that point, it will go to stage three. And if it's right at that point, it will go to stage four. Your job is just to show up to each stage and to let it be what it's going to be. But you're not letting it be what it's going to be. You're trying to control everything that it is. It's like doing a sales pitch. Go. Go talk to someone about what you have. Your job is just to go and talk to someone about what you have. Your job is not to control their life or their thoughts or to try to micromanage everything they do. Your job is just to show up and talk about what you have and let the rest be. Your job's just to show up on the date and let the rest be. Stop trying to control everything. And they're trying to control everything.

And there is one thing that you can control. I heard you talk about this with Louise Rowe, like literally eight years ago, Matt. And it was about going out, I think just in general, going out to social situations that you didn't really feel like going out to. And Louise has a little line she said to herself all the time, that I guess her mom told her, but it's like, you can always go home. And in this context, you can always go home means like, you can always leave the situation. It's gonna be a bad date, look, you're gonna go home afterwards. If it's a bad fifth date, you can always go home afterwards to yourself, to your life. The thing that you're afraid of is that you can't. I'm gonna get stuck into something that's gonna be wrong and my heart's gonna get broken. But just remember, you can always go home. If you trust yourself, if you get that real connection or relationship with yourself, that's the one thing that is in your control. You can always go home.

I love that, Jameson. You can always go home. Audrey and I applied that philosophy last night. We were set to have another night in and we said, you know what? Let's do something different tonight. And so we just said, you know what? Let's drive over to Little Tokyo. We've never been there before. Let's just drive over there and see what happens. We didn't have a restaurant booking. It was 45 minutes away, which felt like a bit of a trek. But we were like, screw it. It's something different. and if there's nothing there, there's nothing there. We ended up having such a fun time, didn't we?

Yeah, it was amazing.

Stories will go up on Instagram.

What do you guys eat?

We ate Ramen. Obviously.

Very nice.

Obviously. Well, there we have it for today. Jameson, I thought that I would just do one little extra thing. to add some magic to this episode. Do you want to hear it? I'd bloody love to hear it. You know, since we sort of started, since we had Audrey in the archives in a kind of whimsical theme, I thought, why not carry on that magic into the end of the episode? Really, what's happening here is that as I was searching for the right piece of music for Audrey in the archives, I found another piece of music that I just absolutely fell in love with. And I thought, I just want every every show to end with this piece of music. So here it is. Well, it's been an incredible podcast with you all. We've had the jams showing up for you all once again. We've had Stephen ranting about voice notes. We've had Matt carrying pickles in a jar in an act of humility to try to get Stephen back on side so that he'll just give the people what they want, which is more namings like pickles. We've had talk on commitment. We've had men giving their feelings from the deepest parts of themselves. Some of them saying things that aren't the nicest things that have made Audrey very angry. We've had texts from how to talk to men, and we've had Jameson's wisdom that you can always, no matter what, go home. Well, we hope that you all already are home with us here on this podcast, because we feel at home with you. And we will see you next time for another episode of Love Life. Take care, our pickles.

I'm not sure what's happening right now.

Just go with it. Lean into it.

That's it, we're out.