Overcoming Loneliness, Beating Failure, And Rediscovering Connection (with Christopher Robbins)

Well, Chris, thank you for being here.

Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. I, for everyone that is listening right now, we have Christopher Robbins, who has, you're from, or you created the website, souldegree.com, and your mission, and I'll let you talk about it more because you'll be able to describe it much better than I, but you've been on this mission to help men connect with each other, get out there in nature, and reconnect with themselves again in healthy ways that help them feel better in life and live happier lives. I'd love for you to, I want to get into the subject of men today and the experience of men. And we don't often do stuff that is the idea of it is for this piece of content to be for men. And we thought, you know what? Because we've got you here and you and I met recently, we can go into that. But because we've got you here, we thought, you know what? Let's do an episode for the guys out there. And if you're one of our many, many women who listen to this podcast, maybe it'll be useful just from the point of view of hearing more about the male experience. And so I'd love for you to start by talking a little bit about Soul Degree, how it started, what for you initiated wanting to do that kind of work as a man, and then we can go into all sorts of subjects to do with men.

Well, let's just start with Soul Degree so that people know kind of what the context is. Soul Degree is a five-day men's retreat that I created largely because I was seeking the experience for myself as to how to maybe create a little more meaning in my life and stop the frenetic pace of life and give thought to kind of the direction that I wanted to move in. And so I, for probably the last six years, I guess now, I've led these retreats in California and Wyoming and Vermont. and I do two or three a year and they all fill up organically. I mean, there is a demand out there, particularly for guys that sort of recognize the power of maybe giving themselves the gift of a little time and space. And some of the graduates, some of the people that have been through the retreats are I mean, you name it, like military veterans with multiple tours of duty, former professional athletes, a lot of entrepreneurs, but really just a complete range of guys, both age and diversity of background. I mean, I think the youngest I've had is 22 and the oldest maybe pushing 70. So it's rich in that respect. And they all come together for one person or one purpose. They choose for themselves to want to come and spend time in the company of other guys and tap into a little bit about how they're feeling, but also reflect and gain perspective on their own life. And also think about what's next or what's the direction they want to move in. And I think that therein lies the genesis of the idea itself. I mean, I, like many things, Soul Degree was born out of crisis. I was coming off a 10-year run being in the restaurant business. And it was, in my mind, what I felt was a colossal failure and one that was very public. There was a lot of money raised and a lot of money lost. And I took it extremely hard, maybe harder than I should have, but coming out of it, I really needed, I was at this crossroads, like, well, what's next here? What do I need? And I'm so grateful that I even figured that out, that I could ask myself that because I was in a tough spot.

How long were you trying to make that work for? you know, you were in a situation where it was, you're in this business, there's money at stake. It's there's, you know, as you say, there's a public element to it as well, which always makes things that much more difficult. And the stakes feel so much higher for the ego.

Yeah.

That it's when, when things I've had failures on a public level that, you know, were bigger than any kind of public failure I ever thought I'd experience in my life and. They were extremely painful because it wasn't just me dealing with the fact that something hadn't worked. It was then dealing with all the comments about the fact that something hasn't worked and all of the messages and sometimes even the loving messages were just as hard because it was still just reminders of the fact that I was going through this thing that hadn't worked that was really important to me. Yeah. How long were you kind of, you said over a 10-year period?

Yeah.

At what point did it start to feel like, oh, I'm, like, mentally kind of in trouble here with the way this is going, and I don't, you know, this is stressful or fearful or, you know, I'm curious.

I probably, I probably hung on for, Two or three years too long. Anyway, I think there was a combination of seriously questioning whether or not the financial viability of it all was going to play out, how I wanted to have it play out. But also there was, I think, several years where secretly I was debatIng in my own head, like, well, why am I here? Why, what is it that's, and I think a lot of even just hanging on was fear and ego and, and by public, I say that, you know, this wasn't, I owned my business partner and I, we opened over the course of 10 years, we opened seven restaurants. Wow. And we also in the middle of it got a knock on the door by Whole Foods, who was really keen on going into partnership with us because we were in the organic thin crust pizza business and they were really intrigued by what we were putting out there and the quality of our product. And so in the middle of our startup in the restaurant business, we ended up launching this line of grocery products with Whole Foods.

And.

Suffice to say, all of that created a lot of complexity and also, I think, put a lot of stress and strain on me and my business partner. And when I started to really feel like things were unraveling and we had a few locations that just weren't performing, and My partner actually was quite interlinked with a family member of his in the business. And so when I say public, there were just lots of friends and family that were involved in this. And that's where it felt extremely personal for me. I just was so wrapped around the axle. and feeling so personally responsible for not delivering on the promise of, hey, if you give me a buck, I'll give you four bucks back when we're all done kind of thing, you know, whatever the sort of expectations was that we had set on day one. And I wanted to live up to those, but I definitely, I kept pretty tight-lipped about it. and then fell into my own complete disrepair. I mean, too much drinking and just, it was a shit show in the end, really. And there's a lot about it that I wouldn't change. I don't know if I'd go do it again, maybe, but of course, tremendous learning, even inside of what I deem to be a colossal failure.

Why, when something like that is happening, what do you think makes it so common that men go inward and they don't actually talk about it to people?

I think we're just afraid, you know, of disappointing or not living up and not living up could be to, outside expectations, but I think often they're what we set inside our own selves. And I think as soon as that, you know, the shame and the guilt start to build up, it gets harder and harder to want to really open the kimono and reveal your own internal disappointment. I mean, I know for myself and with my own wife, I didn't want to tell her. I mean, we were pretty transparent, but I would come home every day just devastated by the fact that this thing was unraveling and I didn't want to be the guy losing hope. And at the same time, I felt that But the last thing I wanted to do was really come home and share it with my wife because she was the number one person I wanted to please and make feel safe and have her get the sense that I was taking care of things. I mean, that's at the end of the day, I think that's often what has us go internal or has us go quiet. is the fear that we're just not delivering.

Yeah, that word delivering is really interesting, isn't it? Because that's a, that, that is a feeling that so many of us guys grow up with is this idea that we are, we are supposed to deliver. And, you know, we may get that from different sources, you know, we we may get it from women, we may get it from other men, we may get it from our heroes who are always portrayed or typically are portrayed as these people who deliver. You know, I always remember that quote in Mad Men, Jameson. It's, I don't know why this stuck out to me, but when Don Draper is looking at a politician, there's like a politician on the TV, I guess, who's big around the time. and the politician is, I suppose he's kind of divisive. And one of the other people at the firm asks Don Draper, like, what do you think of him? And Don Draper just goes, I think he looks like a winner. And it's this, it's, I don't, so much is summed up for me about that. It's this idea that Don Draper is this guy, he has his own kind of duality, right? 'Cause there's a whole thing going on with him that no one knows about in the series. But, But outwardly, he has, you know, this incredible persona and this incredible kind of larger than life. I'm able to go in and win the room. And then you look at the people he admires, and it's like a politician who he has admiration for because he looks like a winner. Who knows what that politician actually was like, but he looks like a winner. And that spoke to Don Draper.

Well, this is, I mean, it's, It's a bit, I don't know if somebody sprinkled fairy dust on this interview, but I grew up with Don Draper. Don Draper was my father, literally. My dad started on Madison Avenue as a young account executive and went all the way to the top and lived every aspect of that. lifestyle. And I was the kid, like the little boy in Mad Men was myself and my two brothers. It the tears or the emotion is not because I didn't have a good childhood. Like I did. It was awesome. My dad was incredible. But in Mad Men, where you really get a sense for how, yes, important it was to put the facade up and have things look good, but also the sort of physical and emotional absence that Don Draper had with his own family. Like that's, And so getting back to your comment about like what influences us to think we need to deliver. My dad wasn't about that at all. I mean, he wasn't coming home and instilling that in me ever. He was loving and fun when he was around and we had a great relationship, but really it was all through osmosis. I feel like just observation. I mean, I'm a young kid. I watch my father packing up his briefcase and putting on the suit and riding elevators up into glass walled offices and Manhattan skyscrapers and seemingly getting it done and being the provider. So he didn't need to say anything. I just naturally assumed, all right, well, that's. that's what I'm supposed to go do. And so even like thinking about the, you know, the, the, the restaurant business and what I deemed to be the failure, I mean, even lots of friends and family who had invested in the business, they didn't give a shit. Like they're like, hey, whatever. I mean, I wrote you the check. I had no expectations. I'd ever see it back. Whereas in my own mind is it was my obligation to be the Don Draper, if you will. And so for things to come undone had me looking in the mirror, seeing a guy who wasn't being, you know, wasn't being who he's supposed to be.

And I feel like that's, that is such a common thing among You know, that's one of the reasons why men end up kind of severing themselves in this way, where they have this private experience that people don't know about that's wrapped up in so much shame and a feeling of not being enough, feeling of being a failure. And, but the disparity between that and the outward projection that is then they kind of end up getting judged on the projection, on the seeming shore of themselves or whatever way we cover it up. You know, some people cover it up by being quiet, some people cover it up by being cocky, some people cover it up, but, you know, like everyone's got their version of how they cover it up. But, you know, realistically, how many men, how many men hit 30 and feel like they're where they wanted to be? How many men hit 40 and feel like, this is where I told myself I'd be in my life by this point. It, you know, some may be, but a huge, huge numbers of men get to those points, and there's been some kind of. Of disappointment in their life that maybe they've not vocalized, but they're feeling it, and that internal shame is. It then starts to make them feel like they're not good enough for the things that do come their way. Or maybe it's they go on a date and they feel it on the date, like, I'm pretending to be this person, but I'm gonna get found out. Or maybe they feel it in their marriage, or they feel it with their friends. It's almost like the beginning of loneliness, right?

Well, that's where I think you hit the nail on the head. To me, that's the plight that many guys face, is that sense of loneliness or feeling like they're alone. And you think about it, it's like, in my situation when the restaurants were not doing well, I felt alone, even though I had an incredible business partner who's still my best friend to this day. And I had a couple hundred employees and customers coming through the doors, but I felt alone. And then you talk about a guy like Don Draper or people that sort of reached that seemingly sign of success where they're the CEO and you only hear about how the walls get thicker and thicker. And again, I can't speak for women, but I think for guys, I mean, whether you're losing the fight or the game of life or feel like you are, or you're thinking that you're on Cloud Nine and killing it, there is like this solo individual aloneness that permeates often. and I think that that's a big deal. I mean, I think that's a big deal for the women out there also to hear is that no matter how, no matter what you see on the surface, there's a degree to which guys feel alone. And again, not that it needs to be dark and depressing or anything like that, I just, I think that often we go it alone. I mean, you know, you like you, you take it all the way back to the cavemen and the guy was going out there alone to kill dinner. And, but I think that that's, that's a big deal. And I see that a lot in it just sitting with guys, them. doesn't matter how good it all looks from the outside, there's that constant nagging question, am I really alone? Because there's definitely a feeling like they're alone. And that's something that often comes out the other end of being on retreat with these guys is even just being able to sit around a fire or a dining room table and share stories and see clearly in detail how other guys are walking their path. After five days, guys are like, oh, okay, I am not alone.

Yeah, there's so much power in that. I never feel better than when I sit with A friend of mine, a male friend, and by the end of an hour or two of just chatting, the two of us, I come away going, oh, I thought I was doing such a horrible job.

And.

He'S got stuff going on, too. And there's this feeling, you know, I know that one of my weaknesses has been feeling like whatever I'm going through is very unique. to me. And it's crazy because the coaching I've done over the years for so many people has taught me better. Right. It's. I know better. I know that everyone suffers. And yet there's still, even within all of that, there's this sort of male instinct. And it may be it's a human instinct, but on the level that I relate to it, I do relate to it as a kind of almost a masculine. energy Instinct that says, I'm. I'm doing a horrible job compared to everybody else. I just. I didn't email that person back for two weeks, and now I've kind of affected that relationship negatively. I forgot to do that really important thing. I dropped the ball on this project that's, you know, super important, and everyone's relying on me for and waiting on me for, and I. haven't moved the, I haven't moved the ball forward on that thing. There's all sorts of things that I beat myself up for or dramas that go on in my life. And, you know, it's so easy to think other people aren't making these mistakes. And then I sit with someone and I'll come away going, this, the problem of my life. is how hard I am on myself. The mistakes, the problems that are in my life, the challenges that are in my life, those are common. The real problem in my life is not that I'm making these mistakes. The real problem in my life is how I treat myself when I make these mistakes. I am at my worst moments, I'm an utter tyrant to myself in a way that if that guy takes the wheel, then we're in real trouble. Because then I do go to a very dark place. And in that corner where I'm not speaking to someone and where I'm not communicating with anyone, then I can... The damage that I can do, the torturing that can go on, is profound. And the ways that I speak to myself or tell myself, you know, like, that is why I've spent so much of my career working on core confidence as a concept for other people is because that's been my journey too. That has not, being compassionate towards myself has not come easy to me. I wish it had, and I know people that seem to have had a better time with that, that's not come easy to me.

But I think that dialogue in your head, because I can so relate to that, is that's the thing that just drops a nuclear bomb on our ability to be present. And I say that in the context of what you're talking about with just sitting with a friend and having a different bodily sensation or feeling after being with the friend. Because I suspect you're like in that moment, you're not up in your head beating yourself up. Whereas when it comes to things that are maybe external to us or we think we need to perform or we need to be the provider or, we need to be better at something. It's often inside of that crushing conversation that we have with ourselves that just takes us completely out of the opportunity to even form that connection. That's why I love your sweatshirt there, because at the end of the day, you know, that human connection It sounds so frou-frou and sort of cheesy, but whether or not you got the promotion or you're gonna become the next Don Draper, does it really, really matter compared to you having that nice experience of sitting with your friend for an hour?

Hmm. Yeah, there's a, there's a, I heard a ref, I can't remember where I heard this. Recently I heard a reference from a movie. Have you seen Jameson? Have you seen Man for All Seasons? I think it's from the movie Man for All Seasons. But there's a, there's a guy, I suppose, who's asking for advice about what he should do and, and he's told you could go be a teacher. And the guy said, but who would know? And I think the response was, I need to watch this movie because I'm probably getting the quote wrong, but I heard it and I was like, I have to watch this movie. The response was, well, your students would know. And the people around you would know and God would know. And that's a pretty good crowd, you know, like this idea that we're not connected to something unless it becomes a symbol for winning or success, you know, and yet we have evidence in our lives. I think every guy has evidence in his life at some point of Something that felt really nutritional, that gave them this little moment of feeling like, oh my God, this is the thing. This is where it's at. I had one of those moments when I went with some of our mutual friends, including Lewis, Lewis Howes, to do the Wim Hof Retreat in Poland. And this was back in early 2020, I think, January 2020. right before the world closed down. And I went out there with a group of guys, and I'd not done a trip. I don't know if I've ever. I don't think I've ever done a trip like that. I've done trips with groups of guys before, but this was something that I didn't think I'd be good at. You know, the. The cold exposure stuff. I was, like, terrified. I was thinking, I'm not going to be good at this. And as a guy, I don't want to do something I'm not good at.

Right.

As I said, that's. I'm like. want to rebel against that idea. If you ask me to go and, you know, there are certain things that I associate with being strong at. I'm like, yeah, I'll go do a camp on that thing.

Yeah.

But this was, I'd never been good in the cold. So I was like, this is, I'm not going to be top of the class here. I feel like I'm going to be securely at the bottom of the class. And I went in thinking that way, and it just ended up being The best parts of this, apart from obviously the feeling like we got these breakthroughs from doing these difficult things, the best part was the group of guys sitting around talking and connecting and realizing what each other were going through. There was an Olympic athlete there who said that he experienced a kind of imposter syndrome by being in the room with these other guys. And he was a two-time Olympic gold medalist. And he felt like, I'm doubting myself here that I should be in this room. But yet I came out of that going, oh, this is the thing. I need to do more of this. It's why sole degree, what you're doing, the retreats with men, resonates with me because I came away from that. I told myself before I went, I don't have time for this. I told myself, I've got too much on. I told myself, I'm not gonna be good at it. I told myself, I'm gonna have a little anxiety about the fact that I'm just in this whole new group of people and I don't know any of them. And I'm gonna have to make conversation for five days. As an introvert, I could do that for a day, but for five... You're.

Describing what goes through the mind of every guy, I'm sure, when they're thinking about something like Soul DegreE. Or in your case, with the Wim Hof thing.

Completely. And yet, I finished it. And I thought, oh, this is what life is about. And so I had a window into this truth that I need to connect with other people more, like in this way, in this truly vulnerable way.

Yeah.

Especially other men. And then what happens, I think, to so many of us men is that we go back to whatever is the thing that we were doing before. You know, so, and I've gotten much better at this. My life has, I've really been able to create a kind of, not, I wouldn't say I've created balance in the sense of feeling like I'm not tired.

Sure.

But I certainly created balance in the sense that I now prioritize these things, like the mastermind you and I were on just a few weeks ago. I prioritize those things now. because I realize that it's never gonna make me, like, running the experiment. I've already run the experiment so many times of if I do more or if I achieve more or if I get somewhere else, is it gonna help? Is it gonna make me happy? And the answer is always no. But I feel like so many guys, even if they have a moment of connection with a friend, they go straight back to this race. that they're in where they now feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but what I really need to do is achieve this or get here. What would you say from your experience of men, what can they do almost as a practice or as a regular interlude to their everyday life of striving and trying to do things and feeling like they're not enough and feeling like they need to get further in order to be happy? What can they inject as a regular interlude to reorient them back to the kind of pressure valve moment that we're talking about when you've had a moment like I did on Wim Hof or you do with your men?

Well, I think that the, and again, this is, I'm not saying this necessarily to plug something like Soul DegreE, but the, your experience of Wim Hof and being with a group of men where there was space created to be vulnerable is what I think frees even that Olympian up to reveal his own beliefs or insecurities or what have you. And What's beautiful about that, particularly when it's just guys, is that you get such a clear view into our humanity, the humanity of men. You see it with women around, whether we say we're not trying to impress or we're not influenced by their presence or it's bullshit. We just are. Whereas that experience you had level sets the playing field a little bit. And on Soul Degree, I'm all about wanting to take people out of their frenetic element and slow things way down. like, really way down. Meditation. I'm a meditation guide and a yoga instructor. And so I weave some of these modalities into the experience to slow us down, but also to have guys see the the physical, the emotional, the psychological benefits of The awareness that comes when you slow things down. And, you know, guys will leave the retreat and they may never go to another yoga class or they may never meditate or whatever. It doesn't matter. But the awareness of other men and being able to walk down the sidewalk and see men a little bit differently, which I suspect you do, Even having had that experience, right? There's just a little bit more, you know, the aperture opened a little bit for you to have that much greater empathy or compassion or understanding for the other guys.

That's a beautiful way of putting it. And it's true. It makes me want to be like, I have to put something in my year minimum once a year, but, but hopefully more than that. And I think on a, you know, I'm not the first person to say it by any stretch of the imagination, but, you know, one of the issues with, for those of us who aren't religious, is that there isn't like a, there's not a church to go to, to connect and to commune with people and to feel like we have that. regular dose of vulnerability, that regular dose of just, oh, let's actually say how we feel. And so when we go on a retreat like this, it feels like we're getting this, this huge shot of it because we're not getting it in our daily lives. And most guys aren't truly honest with their friends. They operate maybe not on the surface all the time, but they certainly operate. at a level of daily exchange that doesn't open up, you know, doesn't open up their wounds on what they're really going through.

They're trying to hold it together.

Yeah, absolutely.

And look, I'll be the first to want to go fishing or go play around a golf or do all these things that even being on like an adult sport team can really, you know, maybe provide some of that camaraderie and collaboration, what have you. But it's just not quite the same thing as being able to draw the blinds on everything around you and talk about what's so, like what's really going on.

I almost feel like you need both, right? You need that moment that you're providing where you do really close the blinds and you put away the phone and you truly slow things down. And then you need some, almost like a way to exercise those muscles in your daily life. One of the things that's been really interesting for me is it's taught me a lot about my, how I operate is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I, I do this.

Do you do it?

I do. I, I just got my, three months ago, I got my blue belt, which was a really big achievement for me. And in Jiu-Jitsu terms, that's a, you're still like, you know, you're still at the beginning of your journey. But when I say beginning of Journey, you're, you're like three years in, right? You've, and how many sports do most How long do most people do a sport for regularly as an adult? Three years is a long time to keep something up. And what's really interesting is when I first did it, I was used to the adrenaline of fighting because I was boxing for years before that. So I was used to that element of it. The idea of being in front of another man and fighting wasn't crazy to me because of that experience. But I would notice something. I kept hiring this amazing guy in LA to coach me one-on-one outside of the Jiu Jitsu studio. It was in the Jiu Jitsu studio, but it was always one-on-one training. And after a few months, I remember him saying to me, you would really benefit in addition to your one-on-one training, you'd benefit from coming to a class.

And you're like, Because in W- well.

He was like, In a class, you're gonna roll with different people. They call it rolling in jiu-jitsu, the sparring. You're gonna roll with different people and that's gonna be really beneficial. And I wouldn't have said it this way at the time, but I had so much resistance to it. I kept saying to him, yeah, yeah, I'll come and do a class. and yet I kept paying way more money to see him one-on-one than to come to a class. I could have done both. So it wasn't about exchanging one for the other, but I kept avoiding the class. And I realized there was some part of me that still. It was almost still like I saw it as high school. It was like still this. Now it's not me and a guy, like the guy in front of me fighting me didn't scare me. The idea of the social interaction of being in a class and now I've got to actually be in a room full of guys and deal with all of that and connect. And that gave me this almost this feeling of being an outsider and having to come in and figure out those dynamics. And I just didn't, It was like effort. I didn't wanna do it. And then I started going to classes. I had to really will myself and be like, I'm gonna start going to these classes. So I did. And at the end of every class, two things would happen. I'd think, I'm so glad I went. That was really great. I'm really proud of myself for going and I feel good. and it's not nearly as scary now, an hour in, as it was coming in. The second thing that would happen is I'd immediately leave. So the moment the class was over, I'd just. I'd be, like, into the changing room, get my bag. I got stuff to do. I gotta go. And it's true that I had a lot to do. It's true that I had a lot on my plate and have had for as long as I've been an adult, but. but that was avoidance because there were moments after the class where groups of people stay on the mat and they just chat or they, you know, they'll just. They'll just hang for a minute. And they. And, of course, because people go to the class for a long time, they know each other. Right. More than I know anyone. So I don't feel a part of that yet. So instead of kind of braving. that first step of, well, in order to be a part of this, I kind of have to stay in the room. And I have to go through that little period of no one knows me right now, and I've got to break into a conversation and introduce myself and get to that point of familiarity. I would always say, I'll do that next time. I'm super busy today. I'm in a rush. And so I would leave, but my leaving was just avoidance activity. and then there would be like, I remember it's so funny to me. I was like, there were guys at the end of every class, they would do crunches afterwards. Afterwards, they'd be like, some, not everyone, but just like a handful of them that would get together and do crunches. And instead, I I I felt like I needed an invite to go and be in that little huddle and do crunches together instead of just. Coming over, I felt like I needed an invite. And so I would just leave, I would be like, oh, I wish someone would be like, Matt, you know, like high school man. Right.

And, but what you're speaking of also is what we were talking about earlier a little bit, is that you are on some level, the actions that you were taking were perpetuating that kind of solo existence.

Yes.

And being the the individual. And I think that, yeah, we, I'm actually, for the first time, I'm sort of branching out and, you know, I know that not everybody can go on retreat and take time off and what have you. So I'm launching this thing called the Huddle this year. And it's an online gathering of guys from around the world where we can huddle up and actually have some of this reflection and some of this sharing of perspective. And it'll follow themes from month to month. And I'm both terrified, right? Just like you are to go in and do the crunches. But it's that sense of, being in a huddle and how different that is than being on your own path. And I didn't grow up doing a lot of sports that were huddle-like. Early on, I played a little bit of football and some soccer, basketball in high school, but things like ski racing and even playing golf and things fishing, these are very kind of solo ventures. And And, you know, I don't know. Some people might get it from a church or a friend group, that feeling of being in a huddle and being together rather than alone. And it's astute of you to pick up on yourself for, you know, sort of being able to zoom out and see like a fly on the wall might kind of how you would pack your bag up and get out of there, 'cause it's so not uncommon.

I'm really good. That's the one saving grace is that I can put eyes on myself and I am, I sense those things about myself. I'm like, you know, in so many ways, I'm a grown up in my life. I live a life where I'm in front of a lot of people a lot of the time and where I've built an organization and have a team and those are all very grown up things. And then, I was still a boy inside. But I would notice those moments where I was going to grab my bag and I was pretending this was a grown-up. I have to grab my bag and my stuff and get out of here because I have lots of things to do. I have business to do. I have to get to my neck. I'm pretending to be a grown-up in that moment. But I'm really a boy. I'm really a kid who's scared. of not being invited to do crunches with the other guys.

And that's the thing that's like, even, you know, we talk about vulnerability and getting together and having some of these, you know, deeper conversations, even on, like, when I put Soul Degree together, honestly, I would say one of the major catalysts for me wanting to do something, you know, these are wilderness based. We go into sort of remote locations, and it's because I grew up running around in the woods. And that's where I had most fun, was just being a boy, fucking around, getting muddy, playing with sticks, whatever it was. And that absolutely is, for me, what Soul DegreE is about. I mean, yeah, let's come together and let's talk about what's really going on, but let's also be boys, because inside of these big masculine bodies trying to be, you know, all perfect is just the boy. We all know that. Yeah.

Well, that's interesting because it almost, one of the things when we come on, and we're gonna answer a couple of questions from our members too, but when we come on to that, I wanna talk about that concept of how more women can almost see the boy so that they know how to access that part of him.

Yeah.

Because I think a lot of men appear to be either intimidating or in control all the time or just invulnerable. They, you know, they're, they don't show those cracks. And so I think a lot of women, I miss, they kind of mistakenly think, guys, don't get their feelings hurt. Guys don't struggle in those ways. I hear it all the time from women in dating. You know, it's like if I get ghosted or if something happens to me, it's a big deal because my feelings really get hurt by that. But a guy, guys don't experience that the way I do. So I think that understanding that there is that boy And then knowing what we can come on to is how do you actually talk to that? Because I feel like the ability to talk to that boy without scaring him off and having the facade come back.

Sure.

That holds the key to how to encourage male vulnerability in a way that's gonna make your relationship better. You're gonna get to truly know that man. He's gonna learn to trust you. you're going to become a genuine team instead of just this guy, the bravado of the leader who inside is, you know, having his own meltdown in some way or another.

Totally.

And, you know, you're just along for that ride. So we'll, we'll come on to that. But I, I just, I, I just think the work you're doing is so, I know, I know in my bones it's so important because I know what a deficit there is. among men for this, that guys do feel alone on a level that they'll rarely admit and that encouraging conversations between, even this conversation now, the way in which we're able to speak to each other, a lot of men don't, they just don't have that with anyone in their life. They're not able to have those kinds of conversations. Maybe they could never have them with their dad. maybe they can't have them with their current friendship group.

You know, sometimes it's, I mean, not to create excuses, but surroundings and circumstance can influence that, you know? I mean, guys get together, they're at the bar, they want to talk about the game, the score last night, the what have, it's not necessarily the level or the depth at which a conversation might have be had if they were just, the two of them in a quiet place. And that's not to say that you can curate that setting all the time, and there's a time and place for it. But I think that that can get in the way a little bit of guys not, they come off retreat, they're like, wow, this is great. How am I going to do this back home? who around me would want to do this or could I cultivate this with?

What do you recommend for that? What advice do you give for people who do want to, you know, because that's relevant both for people coming off of the kind of retreat that you hold, but it's also relevant for the person, the guy listening to this who lives in a part of the world where he's not got access to a retreat and his people around him aren't that way. What do you think is like a starting point for men who want to start to, you know, they're like, all right, I'm, you know, yeah, I'm suffering and I want to, I want access to these kinds of conversations with people around me, but I don't have it.

I think that the, because we're, And again, I'm making sweeping generalizations a little bit, but because I think we often grow up being either directly taught or indirectly to achieve, succeed, go, go, go, provide whatever those things are, that we sometimes lose sight of the power of just listening. and really listening and having the other person really, truly feel heard, which if you're in a crowded bar is really tough. If you're in a quiet spot, might be a little easier. But I think one of the things that people ask me, like, well, what's the number one thing that people kind of take away from these retreats? And I would say one of the things that I really am keen on wanting guys to feel and experience is the power of listening. And yes, also feeling heard, that's important. But more importantly, the effectiveness or the sort of how astute of a listener you can be, some of that's driven by your questions, some of it's driven by how you respond, or maybe more importantly, how you don't respond. But I think that would be my encouragement to guys is that to the extent they're seeking those deeper connections or relationships with other guys, really focus on the practice of listening and acknowledging that you heard what they have to say or how they might, what they're going through or whatever it is, because it's inside of that connection that I think you'll find, okay, that guy, that guy heard me, and that guy makes me feel heard or seen and, and vice versa. So I think it's It's dialing up that awareness of how you yourself are tapping into what the other guy is talking about or what he's saying.

And that makes me, the word that comes to mind when you say that is reciprocity. Because people might listen to that and go, well, how does me being a better listener help me get more connection? from other people. But the truth is, if you listen the way you just described and you, you pick up on things, right? You start to read between the lines of what might be going on in someone's life or what they might be struggling. You know, there was a moment where you felt them say something and then.

Sort of didn't ask. Right.

You know, and you realize, oh, I've just learned something about that person that's. hurtIng them or they're struggling with. And I often think with guys, you know, something they're struggling with when they start to say it and then they cut themselves off or they go in a different direction or they just, they shrug it off with like a, oh, you know how it is. Like, oh, there's something there. And if you pick up on that stuff, it actually gives you this incredible ability to then hours later send that person a text. and be like, Hey man, I noticed when you said this, this might be hard right now and I've been through that before and I wanted to say, and now you can...

It's true. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to happen right there in the moment. You're right about that. But I do think that there needs to be a willingness and a comfort to pull on the thread a little bit.

Yes.

And asking permission for being able to pull on that thread. I think often we're hesitant to even pull on the thread because if we do that with another guy and he starts revealing or sharing himself, then we're like, oh, fuck, now what am I gonna do? Now I have to, you know, so there's maybe a hesitation on our part to go there because we don't want to go there ourselves if ever prompted.

That's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah.

If we're not even coming from a place of being willing to go there.

Ourselves, That's especially if it's vulnerable. Because if you're digging in with another guy and trying to get him to be vulnerable, well, that might come back to you. Like that guy might turn around and want to hear the same vulnerability from yourself. If you're unwilling to do that, then it's, or if you're afraid of doing.

That, then the thing that helps me is whenever I, like sometimes I'm watching YouTube and I'll see a podcast with two guys I respect, and one of them will say something that I'll think, oh, he didn't need to reveal that. He didn't need to say that. He didn't need to go there. And what he said just now is not the kind of thing that would have made him look cool or in control or like he's got it all figured out. What he just said there just really humanized him. And in those moments, a couple of things happen. I feel liberated. I feel this pressure valve because I'm like, oh, my God, I relate to that. I'm so glad he said that. And the second thing that happens is if I was, if I had any doubt as to whether I will like someone less because they do that, that gets proven wrong in that moment, 'cause I actually immediately like them more. And so I always try to remember that when I'm saying something that I think I could be, that's either shameful or something that I'm worried that will make me look weak as a man, something that will, you know, doesn't fit with the alpha male stereotype, the stereotype of a confident man who's Whenever I'm afraid of saying something like that, I realize, oh, this is going to have the same effect on other people as it does on me when I watch it and it gives me permission to be more of myself and it makes me like that guy more. I don't finish it going, He's so weak. I finish it going, oh, that was a really human moment. indid me to him.

But that is not the dialogue going on in the other person's head more often than not.

In what sense?

When I think about, for example, after the restaurants, Mel and I had made a decision that it would serve everyone, our kids and her, if I focused way more attention on the kids and being the first call parent, if you will.

And.

At the time, I was mortified by the idea. Even though I had said years prior I wanted to spend more time with my kids, that was so not what got modeled for me. Remember, I had Don Draper as my model. And so the idea that I would be being that guy running kids to the bus stop or to the doctor's appointment felt like nothing short of more evidence that I had mastered a colossal failure in my life.

Yeah, it didn't feel like.

And I wasn't about to, like, I It took me some time to, you know, and forget about, like, that was just even inside of our own family nucleus. There was some shame or embarrassment there, but you think about kind of how that spreads across the globe and how the societal influence on men to not show weakness or vulnerability or to be tough or to be a success. Like, this is just so ingrained in our DNA. I can't imagine it's ever going to completely go away. But I think that the pendulum is swinging a little bit, some of which may be influenced by more dual household incomes and even, you know, women taking the stage, which is awesome.

And what is your opinion on, because I, I have so many women who come to us who say, I intimidate men. There's, you know, my, my success or the money I make my job. When I mention it on a date, I feel like it's, it's this immediate kind of wedge between us and that that's the reason why I'm struggling is because men don't want a successful woman. You obviously have a very successful partner in Mel Robbins and many of our audience will obviously know and be fans of Mel's work. What's your experience of that in your evolution, how it's developed for you? and I suppose what advice would you impart for both men and women in that area? Women, when they're dealing with men who may on some level be threatened by what they're achieving or where they are in their life, and men who are on the receiving end of a situation like that, where the person they're with challenges their ego in that way.

Well, I mean, When I think about Mel and I, there's 27 years of evolution there. So because there's so much water under that bridge, there's a tremendous amount of understanding and respect for where we've been and now where we are today and where she is. But if I think back to.

When.

We first met, which is really where I think that's a good place for people to often go back to if they're in relationship, is to go back to the beginning and think about, well, who was I being and who was that person being that you might, that could be resurrected if it's lost, for example. And when I think about Mel, she definitely knew what she wanted and what she liked and was not afraid to ask for that, whether it was, hey, I want to go to this restaurant. And I admired that because, of course, that wasn't who I was. You know, I wasn't. I think over the years as a little kid, I probably. I forgot about really. And again, I would point to guys as being quite. guilty of this is because our focus is so outward and so on, let's take care of that person, or let's protect my sister, or let me be a great husband, or that we completely lose sight of what we need or what we care about or what we want.

You make a really important point, which is that yours and Mel's dynamic, your roles, how you are with each other, the ways that you support each other, respect each other, make each other feel safe. All of that has taken place over a long period of time. Then you have situations where two people are on a date and let's say she's in a certain place in her life, maybe he's not in a place in his life where he feels totally comfortable or feels like he's achieved what he wants to achieve. And then it's almost like he's on a date with someone who mirrors back at him his own insecurities about where he is. I would be curious what your question is, what your answer is for how those men can learn to feel more comfortable in that situation. But I almost want to ask, do you think that women should, because there's a, there's a lot of rhetoric around. Well, if he can't handle where you are and your success and whatever, then screw him. You know, go find someone who can. And life isn't always that simple. You know, we, we all come to the table with an ego. We all come to the table with our own baggage. I'm not saying we should tolerate someone who's being deeply disrespectful to us, but if you notice that There's something, you know, someone is having their own kind of challenges with where you are. Do you think women should write off those men immediately, or do you think there's actually a way to bridge that gap for those women who don't have any history together with that person?

I mean, I think the woman has to ask herself whether she's genuinely interested in understanding what is standing in the way. What's the fear? Because that's all there is, right? The guy who's in the company of some strong woman, if there's insecurities, it's just because they're afraid. They're afraid that while it might be good right now, she's gonna find out that maybe I'm not good enough. And so I think that I think there's just fear and being able to lean into that and try to understand that a little bit more is the first step. Now, whether or not then the woman chooses, okay, well, this guy's too much of a scaredy cat for me. Who knows? But I think that that's a good place to start because the intimidation is just, it's fueling the guy's insecurity about whether or not he's going to live up.

Right. I think that's a powerful point. because if you are able to lean into that, or at least even if you're able to have that lens, it doesn't mean that you should keep trying with someone who is making your life really difficult with their insecurity. There's, you know, on date one, you might decide that's too much effort. But just having that lens of trying to get behind the thing, what is the fear? Because actually, a lot of times, When you understand the fear and you speak directly to that fear, that person can end up feeling very safe because they realize, oh, this isn't true. My fear is that I'm on a date with a woman who is going to see right through me. She's not, the first chance she gets, she's going to go and be with a more successful guy. I'm not going to be for her and she's going to break my heart. if you're able to speak to that fear and make that person address it directly, you might actually become the anomaly for that person because they realize, oh, I don't need to have all of this baggage in this relationship. This is a very different kind of woman than how I thought women were or the women that I've encountered in the past. And that then becomes actually a special bond between the two of you.

I mean, it really, it sounds so trite, but we're just desperate to feel loved. And I think about, I mean, I can only really speak from my own experience, but even coming out of my own perceived failure, because many maybe would look at my situation and say, you didn't really fail. You gave it an incredible effort and accomplished a lot. But that period of time where I was really in a dark place and then started being the head of the household, if you will, at home, and not, quote, bringing home the bacon, part of what I think shut down my ability to communicate and be honest with Mel was just fear that she was going to ultimately decide you don't have what it takes and I'm out of here. And that only drove me for a period of time deeper into my cave, right? Like you run and hide that much more often if in fact the fear is that your true self is not worthy. And so it's a tough one, but I think that when I think about my own situation or those moments where I maybe was keeping my mouth shut, It had to have been highly influenced by me just wanting to feel loved or being fearful that if I said what was really going on, that.

That.

Was going to be the nail in the coffin. But.

It'S so beautiful and I want to almost, I think that's a great place for us to wrap this part of our session and then we'll do our members Q&A for our Love Life Club members. I said to you before we started here that I think if we can achieve two things through this conversation.

One.

Is making men feel less lonely in what they're going through, and the second is building more of a bridge between men and women, we'll have had some success in this conversation. And I think you just, we certainly, I think, I hope we achieved the first one, but what you just said really achieved the second one, I think, because women just having that perspective on men, which doesn't excuse the worst aspects of male behavior when they're covering up for those things, because men can be capable of some awful things when they're covering those fears and insecurities or compensating for them. But not every guy is doing terrible things in the name of those insecurities and is they might just be shutting down. They might just be distancing themselves. They might just not know how to handle what you've just told them. And having that lens of what's really going on, this guy is not a bad person. What is going on is that he's afraid. That's the beginning of the kind of compassion that creates real relationships.

Yeah, and if you're a guy who's been feeling for a long time alone, even if you're in relationship or a marriage or what have you, that only pours gasoline on the fire of fearing that love will be elusive. And so you, I think naturally, we sometimes do things to try to protect against losing the love.

I love it. I, I, I, so this is an important conversation, and I will, we'll move on to our Love Life Club members questions now. But, but before we end the podcast portion of this, Chris, can you just repeat where people can find you and what's the, what's the date of your next program that you have?

I'm hosting three Retreats this year in Vermont.

And these are all men.

All men, yep. And those retreat dates are May 4th to the 7th, June 21 to 25, and another one in September, September 20 to 24, I think. And yeah, everything can be found at souldegree.com or souldegree on Instagram. So, Yeah, either of those places.

Amazing. Well, if you're a man listening to this, please go check that out. If you can make it happen, go do this. I really believe in these kinds of experiences. And, Chris, I have no doubt that the way you lead it is with such integrity and compassion and fun that I, you know, I'd love to come to one myself someday.

I'd love to have you.

But I would really encourage guys to go check those out. Let Chris know that if it's from listening to this show, let him know. I think that would be fun just to understand the connection and how many men checked it out as a result.

And maybe just one thing I would say to the women out there who may hear this and say, oh man, my guy's got to do this. Don't come at it from that angle.

Okay, because that's good advice.

By all means, you could suggest this to your man, but just make sure that he's got to make that call 100% for himself. And in fact, I don't really, I get a lot of women who write in and say, hey, I want to do this for my husband or my partner. And my response is always, You're amazing. Clearly you love your guy. And I need to hear from him that he wants to jump in on this because otherwise it just doesn't work.

That's fantastic. Well, hopefully we've helped you create something in this conversation that without having to suggest that anyone go and do a retreat, Women who are in that position can actually just say, hey, there's an interesting conversation that I listened to between Chris Robbins and Matthew Hussey that you might find valuable, and this can be that bridge. Well, we are gonna now talk about how to get men to open up if you are with someone who's struggling to open up, and if you feel like you're with someone who's maybe a little avoidant or struggles to communicate their feelings. We're gonna talk about that. Thank you to all of our Love Life podcast listeners, Love Life Club members, we'll keep this show going. But thank you to you, Christopher Robbins, for joining us for this time.

Thank you for having me. It's been great.