The 8 Rules of Love + Finding The Right Person (with Jay Shetty)

Sam.

Foreign to the Love Life Podcast with me, Matthew Hussey. I have something very special to bring you today. I did a live interview recently for all of my Love Life Club members with Jay Shetty. Many of you will know him from Think Like a Monk. He recently released a book, the Eight Rules of Love, which is a great read. I've been through it myself. It's a wonderful book for anyone who is looking for love or looking to improve their relationship if they've already found love. I'm excited for you to listen to this and make sure when you get to the end of it, you go on over to Amazon and grab a copy of Jay's book, the Eight Rules of Love. I think you'll really enjoy it. And by the way, if you're a member of of the Love Life Club, you also get exclusive access to a Q and A that Jay did with our members at the end of this interview. So if you do want to be part of that Q and a, go to askmh.com and sign up for the membership, and we'll make sure you get access to that, too. So without further ado, I present to you, Jay Shetty. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another one of these Love Life Club sessions. I have a dear friend of mine with me today, someone who I've gotten closer to over the years, someone who I'm a great admirer of, someone who has built this extraordinary world around his coaching, and his coaching spans so many different areas by this point. He has a massive podcast YouTube channel. I'm sure you have seen him at some stage in your own personal growth journey. He's the author of Think Like a Monk and now the Eight Rules of Love, which I'm really excited to talk with you all about today. I want to welcome you to my dear friend, Jay Shetty.

So good to see you, man. Thank you so much for having me, bro. Thank you for those kind words.

It's such a pleasure.

Thank you, and it means a lot.

And hey, everyone, I've done your podcast. We did it a while back.

Yeah, we need to have you back on whenever you want. Whenever you want.

It's such a pleasure to have you here with us and to be doing this. I. It was exciting for me when I knew you were writing a Love Life book, because then I was like, oh, man, this is going to be a whole new angle on it because of everything that you've done in your life and the time that you studied as a monk. It was three years.

Three years. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is an extraordinary amount of time. I mean, most people, if they're gonna do something that represents kind of a big shift in trajectory, they might go and do it for a year. But to take those three years, it always strikes me as an incredibly. Maybe you don't see it this way, I don't know. But a very brave thing to do, to sort of take yourself out of the rhythm of everybody else that you probably knew and put yourself in a completely different rhythm that I have no doubt must be everything you learned there must be responsible for so much of what you've now done in your life. But I heard Rich Roll talking about the fact that when he was going to AA meetings for his sobriety, he felt like. And I think he did that in his early 30s, but he felt like being in AA meetings was one of the things that was hard, is he was watching his friends get promoted and, like, go move forward in their lives, their careers, getting married. And he was sort of felt like he was standing still in AA meetings doing very internal silent work that didn't have any immediate external reward and that he had to kind of make his peace with that. Was it the same for you?

So, I mean, first of all, I'm so grateful to be here, man, and grateful to everyone who's. I know audience watching live. Thank you so much for being here as well. And I want to say back just how much I admire your work and how awesome it's been to watch you from afar and then become friends and kind of message over time and connect. And I know Louis has been a big part of us getting to hang out more as well, but yeah, man, thank you so much for this opportunity and so excited to speak about this with you.

Thanks, man.

What's really interesting is that when I chose to become a monk for three years, I actually thought I was going to be a monk for the rest of my life. So when I made that decision, it wasn't a three month, one year, three year commitment. It was a hope of this is home now. And so when I look at it, I look at it the other way, where it was almost like three years was a failure or was me not completing what I wanted. And when you talk about it from the Rich Roll sense, it's really fascinating because when I went to become a monk, it was almost as if time stopped. So you don't celebrate birthdays when you're a monk. You forget how old you are. You feel you are the age that you went in as. So I went in at 21 going on 22. I still sometimes feel like I'm still 21 or 22 in so many ways. Because you just switched off this idea of growing up. There was no thing you had to do. It wasn't like all your. I didn't know when friends were buying houses or, you know, moving into a home. I didn't know when friends were getting married.

Were you in touch with people?

I wasn't in touch with pretty much anyone. Wow. And so I wasn't really aware of what was happening in the outside world. And so I got this beautiful opportunity to truly go inward with zero comparison, with zero outlook into what anyone else's life was. And I think that that's kind of what I urge other people to do in their own way. So not everyone's going to take out three years, but I think we have to find time every week, every month, every year, where we're just by ourselves and learning about ourselves, figuring ourselves out. Because when you shut out that outside noise and that outside comparison, you actually can hear your own voice. You actually can understand what's important to you, because now you don't have someone else's opinion or expectation or some other obligation kind of pulling on your time and your energy.

It strikes me that the. What a gift that is to be able to do that. I've spent 15 years of my life now working with people in their love lives who feel like there is this constant pressure to kind of graduate in this area of their lives, to find someone special, to find whatever they want to call it. My soulmate, the love of my life, the person I'm going to build with. And it's one of the things that a lot of people in that position don't have the benefit of is that kind of shutting out the comparison. Because the comparison is at the Thanksgiving table. The comparison is at the. Is on Instagram. It's being invited by their grandmother who says, why aren't you married yet? Or their friends who are having kids. And that's what they may want for themselves. But it hasn't happened, and they haven't met someone. So do you and I know at the beginning of your new book, you talk about the importance of solitude, the importance of having that time to hear your own voice and discover yourself. What would be your suggestion for people who want to do that? But they are being bombarded by these. They're being ambushed, really, by comparison, all the time. Even if they're not addicted to social media, they're still feeling it from just the peer group. They're in and feeling like they're not at the same stage as everybody else.

I mean, that's like the question of life. It's like, I feel like everyone's trying to live up to everyone else's timeline. It's almost like you're living your life on someone else's schedule, on someone else's calendar. And that's really hard to do because everyone's moving at their own pace. And I often say to people, like, if you feel early or late, or if you feel ahead or behind, or if you feel like you're first or last, chances are you're exactly where you need to be. But because we're so dissatisfied with where we are, we're wanting to be where someone else is. And how you do that or how you find the time, that's important. But what's more important is you really believing you need to. And I think that's the issue. It's not that people don't know how to spend time with themselves or don't know how to reflect or don't know how to do that. We're almost trying to avoid it because we don't really see it as that important or we see it as scary. And so there's this incredible study that was done on men and women where they asked men and women either to be alone with their thoughts for 15 minutes or they had to give themselves an electric shock. And the results are just fascinating. So 30% of women chose an electric shock instead of being alone with their thoughts for 15 minutes. And 60% of men chose an electric shock. And when they asked them why, it's because they said they didn't want to be alone with their thoughts for 15 minutes. They were scared of the idea of listening to their thoughts. Now, what I find the challenge with that is, is that you can avoid that for a long time. But what we don't realize is you could avoid that, get into a relationship, get married, have kids, and then still have to deal with those thoughts 10, 15 years later. So it's your choice as to whether you want to deal with those thoughts with less responsibility, less accountability, less pressure from someone else in your life, or you're actually going to set yourself up to deal with it when you're 40 or whatever it may be 50, whatever age you are with someone else, with kids maybe, and now you don't have as much time, you don't have as much energy. And so I'm encouraging people to say, I know it's scary, I know it's hard to spend time with yourself. I know that you're worried about what. What you'll hear if you truly sit in silence. But the problem is that suppressing that voice only makes it stronger. And the less work you do up front, the more you're going to have to do after with so many more challenges and responsibilities.

And there is the false economy of if you don't do that, you are liable to keep choosing the wrong partners. So there's this feeling of immediate progress when you meet someone else and you go, you know, you could sort of hold that badge up and go, look, I'm seeing someone. So now when someone asks you at the Thanksgiving table, you know, what's going on in your love life, you go, I'm seeing someone. And everyone gets off your back for a minute. So there's this feeling of progress, but it's a false feeling of progress, because a year from now, when that doesn't pan out or when you're suffering and you have to leave because it's not tenable, you're right back to where you started again.

Absolutely.

I think you pointed out something that's really interesting to me, which is this idea that you. A lot of people just don't believe it's actually gonna work. And that I have to believe alongside the discomfort of sitting with your own thoughts, there is this feeling of, that's not gonna be the thing that changes the game. For me. It's a bit like saying to a guy who's young and hungry, like, you know, all this money you're chasing, it's not gonna. Like, it's not gonna work. And I feel like you have a lot of people in their 20s now who are very good at espousing spiritual mantras and, you know, putting the right quotes on Instagram. But if you actually look at the way they behave in their lives, it's like, yeah, money doesn't make you happy. Now, let me get to that next meeting. Because there's this feeling of, no, no, no. But in reality, the most important thing to me is to get status and success and money. And I feel like for a lot of people who are single, while there may be the bumper sticker kind of acknowledgement that, you know, yeah, no, I know, I know. You have to be happy on your own first. You have to be. You have to. You know, they're like, I know that. I know that. Anyway, I need to find someone. There's what we say, we know, and then in our bones, what we think is gonna make us happy, which is finding that Person.

Yes.

And that, to me, seems to create this contradiction where it is really hard to ever sit still and do that work. You do so much of that work with people. Is there a convincer almost that you say to people that helps them finally go, oh, I'm gonna do this work?

Yeah. Well, I think that. By the way, I completely agree with you and I love where you're taking this conversation. And I think it takes. You know what it's like when you first get into a cold plunge, when you first start sit in extreme heat, when you first do something that's uncomfortable until you actually sit in it for three to five minutes, you don't get that kick that goes, I want to do more of this. And so what I encourage people to do is schedule that time in your calendar this week where you're going to spend time with yourself for an hour. Or maybe that's too much for when you're like, 10 minutes. It's good enough. I'm going to schedule 10 minutes where I'm not distracted by my TV, I'm not distracted by my phone, I'm not reading a book. I'm actually going to sit with myself. And I'd like you to answer just one question. What could I do today that's going to make today a great day for me? What do I need to do today? What's in my control? What can I do today that's going to make today a great day? Just sit with that question for 10 minutes. Let the answer come naturally. Don't force it, allow it to be. And I find when you sit with that discomfort, it feels weird at first, you feel strange, but when you sit in that discomfort, you discover something. And so I think the only way is through discomfort. And there isn't a convincer apart from the experience. I don't think there's anything me or you or anyone on planet Earth can say that's going to make someone have a tangible experience without actually taking the steps towards it. So my convincer is encouraging people to do that. And when you start doing that, you get a certain feeling of, oh, wow, that was really useful. Or that was insightful. Or maybe you do and you're like, that was a waste of time and you need to try it again. And so I find, like, with anything I've done that I've always been scared about or worried about or trying to avoid. Like, cold plunge is a perfect example. Like, I think the only reason I did a cold plunge is because I was standing next to a friend who was like, Jump in. And I didn't want to look. I didn't want to look weak. And so I was like, sure. And so I jumped in. And we both. The first time I did it because he was. He'd been practicing and everything. We sat in there for four to five minutes the first time I ever did it. And I wanted to get out at every point, but after overcoming that, I was like, oh, that was. That feels really great. And now when I get back in, if I've been back in after a while, I want to get out in 30 seconds. So that's how I see it. Like, there's no. So nothing can. No one could have told me how amazing that experience could have been without me actually taking the step to do it.

I suppose the only thing that can help is the acknowledgement empirically that doing the other has never worked.

Yes.

That the pattern I'm in in relationships has never worked for me. The firstly, feeling frantic and panicked single is not working for me. Or even just a quiet reservation that I don't feel good. And then jumping into relationships and hoping that's gonna fix it hasn't worked for me because now it just translates to jealousy or controlling behavior or constant fear of abandonment that I'm gonna lose this thing that's now so important to me. So I feel like it's useful at least to acknowledge the untenability of the pain I'm currently suffering.

Yeah. And I think you've sparked another thought for me that the other way of looking at it is, well, even if I find someone, I might actually push them away. So even if I attracted and connected with a person that I think is right for me, I might be in the wrong place in my life for the right person. And I may actually push the right person away. And I think that is a healthier fear to say, let me work on myself. Let me figure myself out. Let me be so somewhat on that path. There is no completion. I'm not saying you have to completely figure yourself out before you move into a relationship, but if you're on that path, chances are you're more likely to find and keep the person that you're really wanting to have in your life.

Yeah. And I want to come onto that. I want to talk more about that, because you said something in the book that I thought was great, which is that by spending time with yourself, you start to relearn what you like. Because I think a lot of us, we don't. Feels very abstract, the idea of spending time with ourselves. And what does it mean, and what's the benefit? But, you know, you put it in really specific terms, which is, I will learn how I like to spend my time. I'll learn what my own values are, what I love doing. And then at the very least, that means I come into a situation as a, as an entity in the arrangement who has needs and who is, you know, who exists and is an invisible and doesn't just chameleonize themselves to whatever the other person wants.

Yeah.

I think the struggle for so many people is that while they see themselves doing that work, they go, the clock is ticking. And as the clock is ticking, the things that I think give me any value whatsoever are fading. Because we can be told that looks don't matter or that age doesn't matter, but so many people's experience, either lived or viewed through people they know or the way just the perception of dating. Oh, they keep going for younger people, that's interesting. Like men keep going for women half their age or who are a bit younger, or relationships with big age gaps don't work, or even men at my own age still are looking younger. And so there's this almost this feeling of, yeah, but the longer I'm on the shelf, the more I feel like my value is going down. And so there's that feeling of, my stock's never going to be higher than it is right now. Today recreates the sense of panic that I don't have time to do the work you're doing. I need to find someone now while my stock is at the highest it's going to be. I'm not stating that as a truth. That's the psychology that I think makes people constantly look at the clock and go, I don't have time for all this sitting with myself stuff. What do you say to. To those people? Because I think that would really help.

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. The first thing is, how many times have you ever made a good decision when you've been panicked, desperate, or felt stuck? So that desperation that you're referring to, that kind of state of panic, that state of I'm on the shelf, how many times have you ever made a good decision based on those emotions? And all the studies show that in if you are trying to get out of loneliness in order to find love, chances are you're going to settle for someone or be with the wrong person. Because your motivation is coming from a place of fear, insecurity and nerves rather than from a place of excitement, joy and sharing. And if you look at Any decision in the world, when you're panicked and you choose something to eat, do you choose something healthy or unhealthy? If you're stressed, do you work out or not? Like you look at any habit in your life, when you make decisions in that pain, you rarely make good choices. And so that would be something I'd alert people to. The second thing I'd say, which is. Which is much more realistic, is this is a simultaneous process. This isn't a linear journey of I figure myself out, then I find the right person. This is happening at the same time. You could be dating and working on yourself at the same time. You're just slowing down the process. I read a study that said it takes 200 hours to truly get to know someone. Wow, 200 hours. That's really interesting quality time to get to know someone. But the other research shows that men pretty much say I love you in one to two months and women take like three to six months to say it. So now when you look at that, not only are we not doing the work, we're also trying to fast forward and accept, accelerate the relationship. No wonder it ends as quickly as it starts.

Do we know why men say I love you faster?

Well, they say it more often in their life, too.

Really?

So men are more likely to say more often.

Is there a. Do they. Have they come up with a reasoning for that?

Not that I've read. I mean, I have my own, and I'm sure you. And I want to hear yours as well. I haven't read anything specific. I mean, I mean, my reasoning is that I think men, at least. At least men that I know, men that I've worked with, often equate lust or attraction to love. And so if a man is infatuated with someone or finds someone extremely attractive, a man thinks to himself, I'm in love with that person, and so is more likely to equate attraction and lust and infatuation with love and therefore say it more often. And I don't think women think the same way, and therefore they're less likely to say it because they are trying to look for a few other things apart from that, and therefore they slow down that process. And so sometimes, and I think this is why, I mean, a lot of the women that I've been working with or speaking to recently are experiencing so much love bombing. Like, there's this whole, you know, like, the man gets infatuated, he's totally into. And again, I don't want to make gender stereotypes. It can be anyone but like, you feel like this person's fully in love with you because they're finding their validation from making you feel good. Yeah. So they think that if they make you feel good, that that means they have value, so they love bomb the hell out of you. And then three months later, they realize they didn't really get to know you or they find someone else or whatever it may be, and all of a sudden you think you're being left behind. And so I think that's why. That's my reasoning. I'd love to hear yours and your opinion.

I think that's really. I think that's a very good point. Perhaps there's also some element of societal roles coming in there where women feel like it's a guy's job to make the first move. So there's maybe a little bit of, like, I'm, you know, as a woman, I don't want. You know, women routinely get accused of being, you know, overboard with their emotions or like, oh, she's crazy, man. She's there. And no one wants to be accused of that. And of course, it's a completely wrong stereotype. But the idea is that women are labeled that too often. And so I think a lot of women have the idea in their mind that the last thing they want to be called is, like, high maintenance or over the top or, like, moving too fast. They're like, I don't want to scare someone off.

Yeah.

So it's like, maybe there's an element of waiting for the guy to do it first, and then it's like, oh, now it's safe for me to do this because I know we're in sync. Whereas maybe men don't have that, you know, we're the ones that propose. Right. So men don't have that feeling of, I have to go second. And it might also be perhaps there's some lack of. There's some lack of impulse control in men that women are better at, where men are just like bull in a china shop. Let me. Yeah, I'll say I love you. Not thinking of the consequences of that or that I might actually end up hurting you three weeks from now. When I realized that, I didn't give that myself a chance to see if that was actually real or not.

Yeah. Yeah.

Whereas women might be more thoughtful about going, let's just see how this plays out before I do that.

Totally. I completely agree with your point. That theory stacks up well for me, too. Like, I feel like there's some truth in that. And ultimately, there's also the Bad advice of like, I love you being the magic words. And it, you know, unlocks all these other benefits that come in a relationship. And so there's so many. Yeah. There's so much manipulative advice.

And that comes in the kind of impulse control thing, because there's a selfishness that goes hand in hand with that.

Right.

If I'm. I often think impulsive is like kind of a nice window dressing of selfishness, because what it really means is I act without. Without any kind of acknowledgment of the consequences of doing this. How will it. May you use the example in your book of taking someone to a wedding not because you really like them, but because you needed a date for a wedding and you're not really thinking of how will this affect this person's perception of what this is. If I see this as something just purely casual.

Yeah.

And this person now says they're taking me to a wedding, this must mean something. You know, if you're sort of impulsive and spontaneous. It's also a way of saying, I don't really think about how this is going to affect you.

Absolutely. And in the movies it always works out. So that's the other issue. Like when. When someone takes you to a wedding, even though they were just trying to make someone else jealous, but somehow, you know, you found romance. And so. And so I feel like that's the imagery that's been thrown around as well, that when you do these things, somehow it works out. Somehow it develops into this. And so everyone's misled.

I think that I really like what you said about when have you ever made a good decision from that place of stress, panic, desperation, anxiety? Because it also translates into the early dating process. Right. It doesn't just translate into, I really want to find someone. And then when you find someone, you go, okay, now I'm going to be really measured about this. It translates into those first weeks and months of dating as well. So now instead of being. I like that you said you could do the work that we're talking about at the same time as meeting people. And it's actually a very good time to practice it because you can meet someone, you can have a great first date. You certainly haven't clocked the 200 hours that it takes to know someone and therefore the. To know if they're really right for you. All you know is that I had a really good time and my brain is now on overdrive with making this person much more important than they should actually be right now. It strikes me that that's a really good time to practice the work that you're talking about. Because it's a way of. It's a way of like stopping the clock and slowing everything down while you're in a process where your emotions and your sometimes insecurities and your desires are trying to speed everything up.

Yeah, no, you're spot on. There's like, I was thinking about this this morning actually, that if your relationship starts like an interview, it will end like a firing, right? It's like this idea of like, it starts like an interview. Both people are presenting perfect versions of themselves. They're answering the questions in the right way, they're responding and behaving in a way to impress the other person. And then fast forward a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months, and someone's going, oh, well, you're not who I thought you were. Right? And that's the firing. That's like, oh, you didn't live up to what you said on the job application. Right. You didn't live up to how you interviewed with me. And that's really what we're saying. And so I find that that's what's happening. And if you're doing the work simultaneously, what you just said is a perfect connection. That to be honest, self work can't be done in a silo. It can't be done. Like when I came back from the monastery and tested the ideas I'd learned, that's when the ideas became even more real to me. Like for three years, I'd say I learned the wisdom and the knowledge and the curriculum. But when I came back into the real world and actually had to apply the curriculum, that's when it went really deep for me. So absolutely, people should do it simultaneously. And you're absolutely right that actually if you're doing that work, you'll be able to spot someone love bombing you. If you're doing that work, you'll be able to tell someone's misleading you, or maybe being manipulative, or you'll be able to tell whether someone's being a bit more genuine and real because they're showing you more parts of themselves. And so I feel like if we want something real, if we want something true, then we're having to put forward a real, true version of ourselves. And that only comes in with a form of self respect and confidence that is built outside of being in front of someone. I think it's very, very, very difficult to be completely yourself in front of someone new that you like if you haven't become confident with who you are with yourself in the first place. Right. Like, it's just. I think it's natural, and it doesn't make you a bad person. It's natural when you're around someone new to want them to like you, to want them to think you're great and attractive and to walk away thinking that's a nice person, even if you're not attracted to them. You feel that way?

Yeah.

So when you are attracted to someone, you definitely want them to feel that way. But if you've realized that I don't want to mold and bend and become a worse version of myself in order for someone to like me, and you decided that separately, you can hold on to that.

In that conversation, do you think there is a conflict? You know, we can get very attracted to someone, and they could be very dazzling and very charismatic, and they could kind of pull all the unconscious strings that make us, like, you know, we get that feeling we had when we were at school and we had a crush, you know, and it can be very blinding, but equally disappointing as someone coming along who does that to us, who then turns out not to be able to deliver is the person that we feel has all the right stuff. And we don't. We don't feel that feeling that we want to feel, that feeling of crushing on someone and being excited, and we're. We're going, well, they. They seem to have. I'm supposed to be looking for these things that make someone a great partner. This person has those things, and yet I'm not feeling this. And that can feel really disappointing for people because a lot of people feel like they're caught between this rock and a hard place of, you know, my heart's pounding and I'm miserable, or I'm kind of like, is this it? Is this the thing? I know they're gonna be great to me. I know that they're gonna be a great partner, but I don't feel it. So I feel like I. Have I somehow settled? Have I done something wrong? How do you help people navigate?

I want to hear your perspective on that too, because I think. I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. And I can probably name relationships on both ends that have worked out. And so it's. It's. It's hard for me to say there's only one right way, but I like the comparison. I think it's a good conversation. What's really interesting is that I find that people who want that spark, I think that person has to really reflect on why they want that spark and what that is, because I'm not sure that question's really ever been asked. I felt the spark many times in my life, and I've been in relationships with a lot of those people. I felt it with my wife when I first met her. And, you know, we've been together for around 10 years now. And so I've experienced the spark, but I've experienced it multiple times.

Right.

It's not something that I would say is unique. And so the spark to me is asking yourself, why did you want to feel a spark? If I asked that question to myself, my answer was, because that's what I saw in movies, that's what I saw in music videos, that's what I saw in media. That convinced me that that's what love was. And so I was trained and schooled in that media narrative for so long that to me, that is what love and attraction was all about. And so then when I ask if I have any other reason apart from why I want that spark, apart from if you say to yourself, you love that chemical reaction, because that's what it.

Is, the drug of it.

That drug of it. I don't know if I have a deeper answer than that. Right. And so for me, the second half has been really important because that's the part that you have a relationship with. So I looked at the studies around this, and it shows that when you first meet someone that you're attracted to to, you experience excitement, which we know, but you actually experience stress. So what's happening in the brain is that you're experiencing excitement and stress at the same time. So you're feeling, oh, my God, they're so hot. Do they like me? Right? Like, that's that excitement and stress you're feeling. Oh, my God, they're so beautiful. And whatever else it is, will I be good enough for them? So it's excitement and stress.

Excitement and stress. And you haven't got text back for two hours, and all of a sudden it's ruined your day.

Exactly.

You send untenable state to live in for a long time.

And what happens, they say, is that as you build a relationship with that person, they provide a sense of comfort. And the stress drops. So now the excitement start to subside as well. So now you may still have joy, but you lost the stress, which is where you lose the spark, which is when we say the honeymoon period. So actually, all that's happened is chemically, is now that we're friends, you make me feel so Comfortable that I'm no longer stressed around you. Right. Which is a good thing. Which is actually a benefit from the relationship. So to me, I'm far more focused on helping couples build skills and tools in order to have long, healthy relationships, if that's what they want, than I am fixated on the spark, which I think can work but can also be misleading. So when I look at. And that's my take on it, right. Like with my wife, we definitely had a spark when we first met and that spark was not going to create a long lasting relationship. Like that spark in and of itself was not going to create the relationship we have today because we've needed far more tools and far more skills to be able to continue to have a healthy relationship.

Have you worked with anyone that you can kind of really say they didn't have that spark and they went on to have a relationship that still was rewarding and fulfilling and, and had all of that? Or do you think that there is almost some baseline, like is there a, a barometer for where you go, no, you've gone too far the other way. And where do you think people can find that line?

Yeah, that's, that's.

I feel like a lot of people are not, they're like, I don't know if I'm, if I feel it enough and you know, then they're questioning, should I get out of the relationship? And that plagues people, right. Especially when they're in something that feels like really does give them some wonderful things and they're with a great human being. It can, you can torture yourself going, should I leave? Because am I going to always regret it? Am I never going to find something like this again? Am I always, you know, am I giving up the right things? But also I don't know if I'm feeling enough of that thing that I'm supposed to feel.

Yeah, and I think you've really hit a nerve there. I think we experience so much guilt when you think you're with the right person, but it doesn't make you feel the way you want to feel. And you carry this guilt and you carry this questioning and you carry this self doubt and it can be really, really painful. And I think often we are really harsh on ourselves in those times as well. And we can be like, oh, I'm just ungrateful and I'm the worst person and anyone else would be so lucky to have this person and all those kind of feelings. I think the test question for me is do I want to build a life with this Person. Like, do I feel enthusiastic? Do I feel inclined to do something with this person? Or actually, do I not have any motivation to build with them? Because if I still have the intrigue and the desire to say we're creating something together, then that's really what you're looking at. What you're not testing is if you're asking the question of, like, I don't have the spark. I don't know that you will never be. Sometimes it can just be a head spin because you're like, oh, well, no, they are attractive when they dress like this, but then they're not like this. And. And I have talked to people like that who are in that exact situation.

And you get into, well, just. I want you to finish, because what you're saying, I think is a very, very valuable point. But you're right, because people get into comparisons of, well, I feel like it's sometimes and not others. I felt like it more with this person, but not this person. And it's, like, almost becomes a Top Trumps game.

Yes.

Am I supposed to get the most spark I've ever felt with the person that I stay with the longest?

Yeah.

And what you're saying is, actually it's about a different game altogether, which is, do I have. Do I feel like there's something compelling me to see where this journey goes?

Correct. Correct. And so you're not looking for the spark now. You're not looking for the. You're looking for, like. Yeah, exactly. The word you use is beautiful, actually. Like, what? Is there something compelling you to say, I want to build with this person. Even if everything's not perfect and not working out or isn't. I don't feel everything exactly how it is. Do I feel like this is someone worth building with if you don't have that enthusiasm? Like, I've had relationships in my life where someone's been perfect on paper, but I've lost enthusiasm for building with them. And I often say that. Like, I think what's kept me and Radhi together over this time and what I hope continues to keep us together. And I'm always reevaluating this, and I encourage her to reevaluate it too, is, are we still enthusiastic about this relationship? Like, do we still feel excited to work on it? Do we still feel excited to figure out our problems? The day that goes away, then it's not gonna work. No matter how much attraction there is or spark there is in those times.

Where you felt like, this person's great on paper, but I don't feel that. Do you put that more down to the mindset you were in at the time, or. It's just that you could have met that person at any point and it still would have been the same.

Oh, wow. For me. And you're asking for me, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I would say that if two people are willing to work on something, there's ways of making a lot of relationships work. And. But the challenge is it requires both, right? That is the challenge. And so with that relationship, I don't think either of us were willing to work on it. And so no matter when we met, if that was our mindset, it wouldn't have worked. And. And that's what I've realized, that it really is a desire from both people that we're still committed to working on this. It's like this podcast, right? Like, we're both. We're on your podcast, but we're doing a podcast together. And it's like, at one point, if one of us loses enthusiasm, the podcast loses energy. We both have to be. And that's how I felt on this show. Like, everything. You're reflecting, and I'm, like, listening to, and I feel heard, and we're like, okay, we're both here, we're both present. As soon as I don't feel you're present, I can try and carry it, but that's not going to. I can only do that for the podcast. I can't. Couldn't do that forever or vice versa. And so I find, like, that's what a relationship's like, where a lot of people feel like they're carrying a relationship. And I feel like if you're carrying a relationship, you can do it for some time because every partner will go through their ups and downs, but you're not going to be able to carry a relationship for decades.

Yeah, that's. It's. It's funny because the. My relationship with Audrey, yeah. Really felt like the first time, I think, in my life where I truly. It wasn't about fantasizing about what it could be. It was about a genuine. I felt like I'd found someone that building with them would be a really fun time, and it would, like, build something really incredible together. Like, we both had the skills and we both had the compassion, the understanding, the support to build something really incredible. And that. That. I think as you were talking, I was thinking about, like, what the question I was going to ask you is. What do you think compels you to want to build with someone?

Yeah.

And I was thinking, like, what's that answer for me? And I was just like, well, I guess she has so many qualities that I'm like, oh, we'll be able to build something really special because I know, like, she has this incredible way of bringing us closer or of fixing arguments or like bringing our goals together so that it's not just about one person, but it's about, like, being excited about each other's goals and all of that. Does the building is the word I've kept using when I. When a friend said to me, like, when are you like, why did you propose or why are you thinking of proposing? I said, because it's the. I feel like it's the first time in my life I'm like, very excited to build with someone. And that is. That's a different thing than just there's this incredible spark. I have a spark, but it's not. Not the decision wasn't made on a spark because the spark is kind of cheap.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so happy to hear you say that. I'd never heard you talk about that area of a relationship before. And I'm so happy to hear that, that we're aligned on that. And it's a similar feeling. And I feel the same. So if I ask myself why I'm with Radhi, it's like. And it is qualities. It all comes back down to qualities. I was just saying this to her the other day, that she's one of the first. She's. Well now, obviously the only person I've ever been with that is able to let me live as me. I don't feel like she's trying to change me. I don't feel like she's trying to mold me into being the human that she wants me to be. I think she allows me to be myself and then helps me become a better version of myself, not the version she wants me to be. And I think that is so. So I'll give an example. Like, you know, Radhi will never take me if I want to work and work hard and I'm purpose driven. She's never trying to take me away from that, but she really believes that I need to be healthy in order to do that. And so she will be giving me all my advice and like, my meal plans of what I should be eating and the fact that I should be sleeping earlier, all of that kind of stuff that she's impacted me over time where she's really been my health coach in so many ways. And she's also been a health Coach by example, that's what she. I mean, you just bumped into her outside the other day because she was going to work out.

Right.

And so, like, she's so focused on health, physical health being a big part of her mental health, that she's been able to bring that into my life. And so it's not.

She's able to see how it's actually contributing to something you want.

Correct, Correct. She's not trying to say to me, jay, you need to work less so you can take care of your health. She's saying, jay, if you want to work that hard, you should really invest in your health because that's going to help you be even more successful in what you want to achieve. And so that's a really beautiful mindset because she's not trying to make me the version of me that she wants. She's trying to make me the version of me that I want and better. And that's really unique. She's the only person I've ever been with that doesn't make me feel like she doesn't trust me. And I feel like that was something I always needed. I learned this through my own time, that I'm a human being. That and Louis will know this. And, you know, to some, I think hopefully you felt this as well. It's like I genuinely believe I have good intentions and I like being around people who know I have good intentions and trust that, and that makes me even more trustworthy and makes me want to love them even more. Whereas when someone's always like, second guessing me, I will never do anything out of my own integrity, but I don't like being second guessed. It's not a trait that I appreciate and enjoy, especially with close relationships. It's fine for the world.

That's really cool. I remember being impacted by something Tony Robbins said where he said, like, if your partner does something that you don't like, but you love this person and you believe that the core of them is good, then that's where you have to go first instead of immediately ascribing intentions based on your demons, your fears, your trust issues. Like, if you can go to the core of I know this person is good, I know that there's, deep down there is, then that's a starting place for a really beautiful relationship and a conversation. I'm curious on that. When people are getting into relationships and those patterns are coming up of trust issues, jealousy issues, control issues, abandonment issues, and it's, you know, let's say it's within the 200 hour window. I don't, you know, I don't know this person well enough to know that their core is entirely, you know, I want to believe it is. And what I've seen so far has pointed to that. What's your view on how people can manage those things that come up for them before they really feel like they can be certain? You know, Radhey is at a stage of your relationship, obviously where she knows your core. She knows where probably everything you do comes from on some level. What do you do prior to that when you don't want to ruin or sabotage something, but you also cannot be certain of who they are?

Yeah. I think the challenge is we see trust as binary. So we go from like, I just met this person to now I think I trust them. And so we look at trust as, I didn't have trust, now I have trust. Or I like that person, I don't like that person, I trust that guy, I don't trust that guy. Right. Everything's binary. It's black and white. And as we know, just like even it's really strange, we call black and white TVs black and white TVs. But what we don't realize is that most of the black and white on a TV is actually different shades of gray. In order for us to actually see anything, if. If it was just black and white, you wouldn't actually see any image. And so we realized the same way that trust is more gray than it is black and white. And so I learned that there were four steps to building trust. And I talk about this in my first book, Think Like a Monk. And so I make this point very clear, that when you meet someone, you have to have zero percent trust. You have to approach every new relationship with no trust. Trust has to be earned. It has to be built. It should not just be thrown away and freely given. And the challenge is going back to something you said earlier. Studies show we have the halo effect. If someone's good looking, we trust them more. If we're attracted to someone, we believe them more. We think they're intelligent. We believe that if someone speaks well and everything else and is smart and is intelligent, then they must be organized and they must be trustworthy. So trust is a quality we give away by association rather than letting it build separately. It's fascinating, right? Like, it's like, what other quality would you just give someone because they have other qualities? It's very rare. But trust is something where if they have this, they must be trustworthy. If they have a good job, they Present themselves well and they dress well. They must be trustworthy. And we give people away. So when you meet someone, you have to start with zero trust. The second step is what I call transactional trust. Transactional trust is when I do something, they do something. If they say they're going to do something, they live up to it. It's a transaction. And no one wants to go to this stage because it's unsexy. It doesn't feel like love. It doesn't feel exciting. But if you think about it, you set three dates with this person. They were late three times. There's a lack of transactional trust. I'm not saying you have to break up with this person, but you can't go beyond transactional trust. You're still trying to get on that level, right? Well, when they say, I'm going to call you, they call you. The third level is what's called reciprocal trust. Reciprocal trust is where I know that I can do nice things for you and I know I'll get it back, but it doesn't have to be in that moment. I know that's when you start to trust the core of someone. That's step three. But we want that step to be step one. So step three. Three is when you're like, okay, well, that person has shown me that time and time again. They always turn up for me, even when it's not expected or confirmed or committed, they're there. And then the fourth stage, which I almost called, like, it's impossible, is unconditional trust, where it's like, this person, no matter what, is the best human in the world. They love me to bits. They unconditionally will love me forever. I mean, that's like a mom's love for their kids. Like, that's very rare in romantic relationship. And that's why I put that at 4, because I don't even think that's something we need to reach. But what I find is when you meet someone, we kind of go unconditional trust now because they did a few nice things for us, and now you've got to fall down all those levels when they let you down. So often we put someone on a higher pedestal of trust, then they show us what level they're ready to give us. So it's not that they let us down. Someone can only let you down if you put them up. And so if you put someone up on a pedestal and they let you down, it's because you put them too high up without letting them show you where they were.

And that in a way, for me, everything you've just described could be one description of what people call romance.

Yeah.

Right. It's that feeling of, you know, love at first sight. That feeling of. I just. I just know. I just feel something with this person. And what that does is it creates an unearned level of trust, an unearned level of investment, an unearned level of inviting someone into your life and sacrifice that you make for them. And as you say, we create this bigger cliff that we're going to fall off of or that they have to fall off of, probably more accurately, in order to reassess what this really is.

Yeah.

It kind of almost, I think, for some people, feels like I have to do something. I have to do something unromantic. I have to start, you know, actually seeing this as one foot in front of the other in a more. What some people feel is a boring fashion.

Yes.

And they're not used to that.

That's what it is. It's like when you're renting an apartment or renting a home. You don't just walk in and go, this is beautiful. I'll take it. You gotta check for mold. You gotta make sure that there isn't something weird under the floorboards. You gotta go check the steps. You gotta go open the door. You might even want to get. You have to get all these tests done before you make a commitment.

Yeah.

You know, but we don't do that in relationships because it's unsexy. It's not attractive to have to look underneath the floorboards.

And the reality is, you move into that home and you don't really know what it is to live in that home until you've lived in it. You don't know, you can't know until you've lived in it that every morning at 4am There's a bird that arrives outside your window and, like, smashes its beak into the window. And you're like, had I known? Or you can't know until you've lived there that there's a neighbor next door that's going to be a difficult neighbor. Those are things you can't get with a viewing. You can only get by lived.

Yeah.

Experience. So it's, It's. It is always about modifying, like having an organic reaction to what's going on instead of this imagined projection. Yeah, that happens all the time. One of the things you talk about, which I really, I really love, the way you simplified in the book.

Where.

Some of the patterns come from of what we look for and There's a Sanskrit. Samskara.

Yeah, Samskara.

Is it Samskara?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah.

Samskara, you said, is the impression that gets created early on in our life by our parents or by our upbringing that then has us either. And I think I like the way you put it. You're either replicating that or you're rejecting it. I heard a story from Cory Booker once. Of all people who said he told. He told. You've probably heard it, but he told a story of, you know, two men grow up with a drunk father who's abusive to the family and makes their lives really difficult. One of them grows up to be a drunk, just like his dad. The other one grows up to not touch a drop of alcohol, treat his family beautifully, doesn't put them through any of the same things. And when asked the question, why are you the way you are? Both had the exact same answer. With a father like mine, how could I have been anything else? And that's an interesting kind of easy example of one replicated, one rejected.

Exactly. Yeah. Great story.

Yeah. When you're coaching people through the patterns that keep leading them to the wrong people, where do you start in kind of trying to unwind those patterns? Because what seems so obvious to other people from the outside that you keep choosing these terrible people, you keep choosing these same situations that hurt you? For us, it's so close to our face that it is all we know. It literally is like our reality, and we don't know a different reality because we've never really. We've never necessarily lived it, and we don't know that it exists. How do you start putting people on a new path of trying a new pattern or realizing that there's a pattern going on in the first place?

Yeah. I often ask people a simpler question because, yeah, you're right that there are all these connections, there are all these impressions, there are all these images, but you don't know what you're replicating and rejecting because that's. That can be quite complex to reflect on. So the two questions I ask people are, what are the gifts your parents gave you? That's the first question. What I mean by gift is how was a way that your parent loved you that you really appreciated, that was really beautiful, that you really remember? Usually this is made up of fond memories and, like, trips away or, like, beautiful experiences on birthdays, whatever it may be. Like, what were the ways. What were the gifts your parents gave you? And I don't mean gifts as in a present. I mean a gift, as in a way of loving you that you really remember and have stored in your long term memory. And the second thing is where are the gaps that your parents left? Maybe they never turned up to your college football games. Maybe they never turned up when you were, you know, in a choir. Maybe your parent was never around at home because they were working really hard. Like where was the gap created? And I think that's a lot easier for us to check because I think people can remember. Like, yeah, this is what my parents did really well and this is the stuff they struggled at. And then you're using those two to map, well, where am I going wrong in those, in my relationships. I'll give an example in mine. My mom was working, my dad was working. But my mom would always make sure on my birthday, since I was a young kid, that the one thing I'd wanted for my birthday, she'd save up all year and I'd get it on my birthday. And it could be a Power Ranger, like it could be any, you know, it could be any of those things. And I remember just waiting. And my mom would always surprise me too. She'd always act like she hadn't got it. It would be hidden in the house somewhere. And I do that. It was really interesting to me that in every single relationship, even as I became an adult, I, I really wanted gifts. And it took me a long, lot longer to realize I wanted surprises. And I would almost assume that anyone I dated would understand that because that's how you're meant to be loved on your birthday. Because that's how I was loved on my birthday. And literally no one I've met in my entire life has ever managed to live up to my mum's way of giving me a brilliant birthday. And then Radhi learned that over time in our relationship and she gave me some incredible surprise birthday parties and really pulled off some amazing, amazing events. But that was interesting to me that for so long I was yearning for that gift through someone else. And then there's gaps. Like what were ways that I found that my family for a long time, no matter how highly I achieved, their reaction would be the same. So If I got 97% on a test, it'd be like, great, that's what's expected. If I got first this like, good, that's what's expected. Like it was just always expected. And so until I went to the monks and then started looking for validation from monks, which they don't give you either. Which really helped me break down my validation Structure. And it was when I lived as a monk that I learned to validate myself. And that was like. I mean, that's a whole topic in and of itself, but that was huge. So what I'm saying is, very quickly, you can realize with your gifts and your gaps, what false expectations that I've never communicated and I've never articulated to this person do I want them to live up to, and that I'm forcing them to be. And the more we realize this, we go, okay, well, actually, if I don't articulate, if I don't communicate it, no one's ever going to live up to it. And second of all, which ones of these gaps can I fill myself? And which one of these gifts am I just wrong to expect from someone else? Because not everyone's my mum and my dad, and they're not going to be able to live up to it.

So that kind of takes me where I wanted to go with that. Because what do you say to people about how to recognize when what they're asking for is fine and valid and is right to expect from a relationship? And what is an unfair expectation? What's a gap that you are expecting someone to fill that you shouldn't give them as a responsibility? Because there are extremes in relationships of people who go in expecting their partner to reassure them all the time, to make them feel confident, to make them feel enough to show up for. For them all the time to, you know, there's that extreme. And the other extreme is the person who is the eternal pleaser, who never thinks of their own needs and is always about giving to the other person and anticipating their needs and ends up very resentful as a result. But in the, you know, it's all they know is that give, give, give, give, give. And then, you know, there's all the gray areas of. And I've been in moments in relationships where I know I've really struggled because I thought, I don't know if I'm the one being unreasonable here. I don't know if, like, I feel really insecure about this thing. I feel really hurt by this thing. I don't feel like this person's giving me enough time or attention or that this person's thinking of me. And that has led me to feel like I'm in this massive moment of insecurity where I then find myself. I've been caught in a trap of, is this a cue for me to, like, become more confident so that I don't care about this, or is it a cue that I'M in the wrong relationship because this person can't give me something that's really important to me. How do you describe finding that line?

I think it's what you said earlier as well, is that you have to zoom out. I think we really look at very specific scenarios, and then we only judge the person we're with based on that specific scenario. So, for example, if. If I had left my shoes out and socks out and whatever it may be. And Radhi comes in and she goes, oh, God, Jay, you're the worst. Like, you're just so messy and you never organized. And it's like, well, that's not true. I'm actually extremely organized. I'm extremely focused. But in that area of my life, I'm slower, lazy or whatever it may be. Right. I'm just a hypothetical example. But when you start amplifying a small scenario or a singular scenario, not a small. A singular scenario, into a bigger thing, that's where we struggle. So what I often like to do is zoom out. And I look at physical, financial, mental emotions, spiritual, and I look at a relationship and I go, how is the contribution in each of these areas? So when I look at Minoradi's relationship, when I look at physical, I think about. I don't mean physical touch. I mean physical in the sense of, like, the physical physical needs of a relationship. Like food, the house, the home, the apartment, the space. Like, all of that kind of like daily physical things. Really. Radhi takes care of pretty much all of those things. I'm barely involved. When I look at the financial, we both contribute. When I look at the mental, I find that I'm usually more of the planner and the focus and the goal person. Then when I look at the emotional, I'm probably emotionally supportive, but I know Radi is also emotionally available for me. And then spiritual, she wins. Right? So when you look at the. When you score, keep on a card that's much broader, you actually go, oh, we're kind of equal. But if I only look in and hone in on, like, God, I'm the only one who's planning, and I'm the only one who's setting goals, and I'm only. Then you can really sell your partner short. And so I like to zoom out and go, where are we against all of these different things? Because all of these things contribute. And we're all so good at seeing what we contribute to a relationship and missing what someone else contributes. And I've done that for years. I'm like that too in relationships. I Feel like sometimes I've learned that. Not that I'm on. Nothing's unreasonable if the other person's wanting to help out, but there's a sense of, like, you really hold yourself in high regard as to what you bring, but you fail to notice what the other person brings. And I think that comes from being too zoomed in on one scenario, one situation. But to add to the other part of your question, I would recommend that if everyone was able to validate themselves, if everyone was able to build their own confidence, if you were to do that first and let your partner fill the cup over, that's a healthy relationship. I think if you're saying, my cup's half full and they're going to fill up the other half, that's an unhealthy relationship. The healthy relationship is, I'm going to fill my cup up anyway. Just like your partner can't take care of your health for you if your partner eats healthy, you don't get to digest that. If your partner works out, that's not burning your calories. Right. That doesn't work that way. So why do we want that to happen? Emotionally and mentally? We want that person to carry our slack. No, you've got to do that. Right. So I think the goal is you're filling your cup up and then your partner is getting it to overflow. And if your partner is not getting it to overflow once you filled up, that's where I think, you know, it matters.

Yeah. I 100% agree. And maybe the one caveat would be that if there is something that you're not getting from that person that is kind of elemental to what you need in a relationship, if you. If they contribute in certain ways. But the truth is, there's no. I'm trying to think of a good example. Maybe if to be able to connect deeply through conversation and really, like have stimulating conversations is just essential.

Yeah.

To you. And you don't get that from that person, then it disproportionately affects you.

Yeah.

It might be that the socks on the floor doesn't disproportionately affect you. It annoys you. Yeah. But you go, but actually in the round, this person's amazing and they do so much and this is not a pattern of who they are. This is just a kind of a side effect. I can imagine cases where someone can be great, but there's something just that's elemental to your being that's missing. And I had relationships in the past where I knew that I felt adored, I felt this person would do anything for me. I felt like, you know, they were showing up. I felt all of that, but I didn't really feel truly understood and I didn't feel like this person really, you know, we weren't having the depth of conversation that I was looking for in my life. And so it was hard for me to not feel alone in the relationship.

Yeah. And that's, that's a really. But that takes a lot of self awareness. Like you are massively aware of that being a need and then not every person you meet is going to have that ability, even if they wanted to. Like, someone could really appreciate you and admire you, but they may not have the knowledge, the experience, the maturity to be able to have that conversation on your level. And so sometimes someone can care about you, but they may not actually have that ability. And I know plenty of people who feel that way where they're with someone, they're like, yeah, I can't have this type of conversation. And that's the question, what you just said, is that elemental to what makes you happy? Like, that's a great question because to some people they'll be like, no, it's a nice to have.

Right? It's number five on the list.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so I think, yeah, knowing your priorities and preferences, I always say to people like, what are your top three priorities and what are your top three preferences? The priorities are non negotiables, the preferences you're a bit flexible with. And that way you can actually have the elemental conversation versus amplifying and overwhelmingly focusing on something that's a preference that you're not going to get all of that.

And neither are they.

Yeah, exactly.

That's a really humbling moment where you realize, like, my partner probably had a couple of things they wanted that they didn't get in me. And we don't like to think in those terms.

No, we don't.

We like to think we're the perfect person for them. But it's a guy I knew back in England, he said in his 30s to his mum, he kept cycling through relationships and he said to his mum one day, you know, his mum said to him, like, what are you looking for? You know, and he said, you know, I just want, I'm trying to find someone with, you know, I want everything. I want someone who's got like the whole package, you know. And his mom looked at him and she said, I hate to break it to you, but you're not perfect.

So painful, so painful.

It's hard sometimes. We don't think when we're putting together all of these things that we want. You said something that I thought was really beautiful where you said that the time that it takes to sit with ourselves and learn our imperfections and love ourselves in spite of those imperfections and realizing how hard that can be, but doing it anyway is. It actually becomes the recipe that you use to love someone else.

Yeah, that. I mean, yeah, that. When I realized that while writing this book, oh, man. Like, that was. That really hit me, too. I was like, yeah, that's it. That when you've sat and gone through what it felt like to be insecure and what it felt like to feel worthless and when you went through your own mind and what it felt like to feel fight for your ego and to feel strong, and when you've seen that all within yourself, and then when you see in someone else, you can approach that person with so much compassion.

Because it breaks your heart.

Yeah. It breaks you up. Because you're like, we have the same. Because I think. We often think, I don't have an ego. They have an ego. Right. And that statement automatically puts you in an ego point of view if you don't have one. And so I don't have an ego. They have an ego. I don't have this problem. They do. And it's like, well, no, if you've really done this excavation and you've gone on this inward journey, you will have noticed all these emotions in yourself. And now when you see it in someone else, you go, oh, I can spot what they're struggling with.

Yeah.

And you're not like, oh, they're a bad person then. And then you have to decide. And this is a question. I said, this is actually what I've said to a lot of people. If you don't feel able to be patient while someone grows, that relationship won't last. The relationships that last or where you feel inspired, excited, and patient, that I'm okay, while this person grows and deals with what they're dealing with, I'm still happy to be with them.

And do you have a kind of inverse rule to that that kind of makes that not a mandate for the people who love to go into a relationship as what you describe in the book fix it. Do you. Is there a kind of caveat rule that you can apply to that that stops someone from now using that as an excuse to just go into a masochistic situation with someone who's a nightmare? But they're going, but I'm patient. I'm patient because I know what they can be.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm so glad you raised that. So, yes, I talk about, you know, we've talked a lot about. I think there's been some incredible books written about attachment styles. There's been obviously Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages, which is a brilliant book, but I saw a gap there and it was this idea of, like, what roles do we play? Like relationship roles. And I realized that all the roles we play in a relationship can be simplified into three key roles, and they are fixer, dependent, or supporter. And we find that often the other person will take their role based on the role you play. So in relationship. Yeah, in relationship psychology, if you end up being a fixer, you naturally are creating a dependent. So if you're always fixing your partner's problems, if they have that natural personality type, they will fold into being dependent and letting you fix their problems. Then a year down the line, you're like, God, I'm so tired of fixing your problems. And they're like, but you like doing it. Twelve months ago, you showed me to be that way.

And in doing that, we literally become the kind of creator of this very version of a person that we end up having contempt for. Yes, we've created the contempt by the role that we have encouraged and allowed them to play.

Exactly. And if we walk into relationship as a dependent, if we're like, I just want to find a mum or a dad, basically, which so many people do in relationships, you walk in as a dependent and you force this, the other person to become a fixer. So it can work both ways. And what I encourage people to do is move toward this supporter role. Now, what is that? I'll give an example. When me and Radhe have talked about this a lot, publicly as well, and she's at least vocalized this, that when she was younger, her family made a lot of decisions for her and so she outsourced a lot of decisions. And then when we got married, she would often try and outsource a decision to me. So she'd always be like, what do you think? Like what? You make the choice, you decide. And my question in not wanting to be a fixer, which is my natural default position too, is to be a fixer. My response was, well, no. What do you feel like? So if she was like, well, how do you think I look in this? I'd be like, how do you think you look in that? And it would annoy the hell out of her in the beginning, or if we were out going to like, buy like Curtains or we're out, you know, doing what? Furniture shopping and stuff. And she'd be like, oh, you just pick. And I'd be like, no. How do you feel this will look in this space? And let's make a decision together. I want to know what your tastes are. And I found that that was me being supportive but not fixing where I was open to saying, hey, let's be supportive. Let's be collaborative, rather than be like, oh, you take care of that. Now, there are certain areas where I am fixer independent. So there are certain areas in the relationship where if she has a natural strength, I'm going to let her fix that in the house. So, for example, when it comes to what we eat and our snack drawer and our health regime, Radi is the fixer. I'm the dependent. She's the coach, I'm the student. And I'm very happy to follow her advice because she knows more. And there's other areas where I'm following where she's following, and I'm setting the tone. But the overall umbrella to all of that is we're supporting each other. We're not solving each other's problems.

Yeah.

And I think when you start solving problems, people's problems, or filling the gaps, you are becoming a fixer. And so the inverse rule is, just as you don't want to outsource your happiness to someone else, you don't want to be the person whose everything's being outsourced to because it gives you value. And the only way to detach yourself from that is realizing that real love is giving someone the skills to take care of themselves. That is the greatest act of love. For example, if someone's drowning in the ocean and I'm a lifeguard, I can go save them. But if I really love them, I would encourage them to get swimming lessons so that if they were ever in that position again and I wasn't there, they'd be able to save themselves. That's real love. Real love isn't saying, I'm always going to be there for you. That's not real love. Real love is saying, I will always be here for you, but I want you to be able to do this yourself. Like, that's real love. And I think, yeah.

And the hard part about that is that it's not only that our ego sometimes does plays those roles because it feels good. It's also, if we have convinced ourself that we're vulnerable unless we play that role, that our value will not be seen and that we Cannot possibly rely on just being enough as myself. I am only enough. If I'm doing these things, then it's like we're doing it for our survival at that point. And it takes a huge leap of faith, especially when we've never done it before, to go, I am going to take the risk that this person will still want me in their life without me playing this role.

Yeah. Wow. Oh, my gosh. You've taken it to a whole nother level there. I mean, that's the. And that's why both people have to set up to be supporters at the beginning. Because, yes, you're right that if someone's become a dependent and you've become the fixer now, if you show vulnerability or chinks in the armor, that person may lose faith in you. That can very well happen. And that's why I think all of these steps we're saying is so important. And this language is important to bring into relationships. And I want people to. The whole point of this book is I want people to have conversations with their partner. If you're not in a relationship, this book's going to set you up. If you're in a relationship, I want you to actually discuss this with your partner and go, which one are we? Am I a fixer? Am I dependent? My supporter? How can we be more supportive of each other? And yeah, there may be areas of the world where you are the fixer and I'm the dependent because you're better at that thing and we understand that.

Yeah.

And that's okay. And same way as I talk about, we have the fight styles that set up. So I realized this for a long time that, you know, I kept reading the Gottman Institute does so, so much incredible research when it comes to relationships. And the Gottman Institute found that the thing that keeps couples together is not date nights. It's not movies, it's not holidays, it's not vacations. It's learning how to fight. And whenever I say that, it's often met with a bit of resistance. A lot of people are like 100%.

Immediately resonates with me as true.

Yeah, it's true, that's true.

But I get a lot of people could be conflicted with that.

People are like, no, no, I don't fight.

Yeah.

Like we don't argue. Like that's what makes our relationship good. And I hear that way too often where it's like, we never argue. Now, I'm not saying you should have full blown aggressive arguments. I'm not saying that. But chances are in any human relationship, you're going to have disagreements, you're going to have healthy debates, and there's going to be points of tension because you don't agree on stuff.

To me, a huge part of the value of a relationship is its robustness. And the only measure of robustness is can you actually. Can you have tension, conflict, disagreements, differences, and come out the other side Fine and even better. But that, to me, is what builds the ultimate trust in a relationship, is can. If we fight, whether it's as partners, as friends, as colleagues, as boss and employee, if we can fight whatever we term fight, as if we can do that, and we're still here next week, we just. That's like, oh, now the next time we fight, I don't see it as. It's like a check in the box of our relationship's robustness. Now, the next time we fight, I'm not going to that primal place of they're going to leave me.

Yeah.

Because we're fighting. It's. No, this person's still here. Then, of course, there's all the ways that you do fight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, what you're saying resonates so strongly with me. Like, saying. Saying I want a relationship and we will never fight is like saying, I want a human body and I'll never feel sick. Like, we'll never get sick. No, no, no. I'm so healthy, I'll never be sick. We're so healthy, we'll never fight. That doesn't make sense. No matter how healthy you are, the human body has to go through sickness and challenges to get stronger, to become more resilient, to detox, to let go of things. And so when I look at what you're saying about, you know, when we're looking at couples argue. Yes, I do believe that. We don't want manipulative arguments. We don't want toxic arguments. We're not. I'm not talking about where you get away with saying anything you want, but then you go back to loving each other arguments. And I know you're not. Not saying that either. Like, I'm not recommending or condoning it's okay to say anything in an argument and then be best friends afterwards. That's. That's not healthy. But what we're saying is that I break down the fight language, fight languages or fight styles. And so it's almost like the reason why fighting so difficult is because you're a kickboxer and your partner's MMA and you're both going at it and it's not even like you can't actually fight effectively because you both have different styles. And so when I looked at fighting, I found three different styles. One was venting, one was hiding, and one was exploding. So venting is someone who wants to talk it out, talk it out now. We have to figure it out, right? We have to figure out, all right, now, if we love each other, now's the time. Hiding is, I just need some space. I need to move away. I need to think about this, I need to reflect, I need quiet. I don't want to see you. I may not need to talk to you. And then exploding is, you're the worst. Blaming, et cetera. And that's kind of the most toxic one I found in me and Radhi. Like, I'm a venter and she, my wife's a hider. And so when we first used to argue, I would be like, we have to talk about this now. We have to talk it out. Let's figure it out. That's why we'd be good as friends to have the same style. But then my wife just wants to hide. She, like, is like, I need to just go away in another room. Room probably just needs to, like, like, just like, calm down or, you know, not even calm down, but. But just like, whatever it may be, like, just regulate herself and come back with a response. And for years, I felt that Radhi hated me or didn't love me enough because she didn't want to talk in the moment.

Did that give you anxiety?

So much I felt for ages. I was like, well, obviously she doesn't care about me because she doesn't want to talk about it right now.

That was, for me, like, the next emotion is anxiety. I need to fix this until it's right. I can't be right and I'm going to be anxious.

Exactly.

So I need to fix this so I can feel good again, so that I can feel all is right in the world and we can move on.

And more, I felt a sense of like, well, this relationship is going to fall apart because if you don't want to solve this right now, it means you're not committed to me. So what we do is we take what's happening and we again, amplify it to be this big. And that's what anxiety does. It amplifies whatever's happening. So we go, you don't want to talk about it right now. That means you don't care. And Radhe's thinking, well, I just need space for me to figure this out. And what we found was she needed space. I wanted to talk about it right away. And we had to find a way of saying, okay, well, if you usually need a day, and I want to talk about it now, we're going to talk about it in 12 hours, like, and now we're aware. So now I don't have to be anxious because I know that we've set a time where we're going to talk about it. We're aware of why she needs to hide, because otherwise you assume what you think is why she's hiding to be the truth. And I think that's the challenge where we're like, no, I know why you're hiding. Because you don't love me, because you don't care. And that's. That's not true.

Yeah. You start to. The gap between intentions and reality. You start to close that gap.

Yeah.

Where is this actually coming from for you?

Yeah. And I think we don't know because we're constantly. I remember this. The monks would repeat this all the time. They said, we judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions. But we judge. But we judge others by their actions first, intention second. But we judge ourselves by our intentions first, action second. Yeah, that's great. And so the monks would repeat that constantly. And I think that I'm like, that's so true. I feel like I'm a good person, so anything I do must be good. But that person was rude to me and they must be mean. And so, yeah, it breaks. It ruins relationships.

I. Firstly, everyone who is on this, I want you to grab a copy of 8 Rules of Love and grab one for everyone you know. Grab one for anyone who's looking for love right now. Anyone who is already on the path, they've met someone, they're in a relationship. One of the things I love about this book is that, that it. It has such a wonderful beginning for anyone who hasn't found that person yet. And it shows you how to work through the feelings you have during that time. And it shows you how to prepare yourself for love in a really beautiful way. That for me reading, I was like, I was just reading it, going, this is really, really helpful, like, truly helpful and great advice. And then it follows the stages of being in a relationship or, you know, once you're in a relationship, building it, making it better, growing with another person. And I want to just acknowledge you, Jay, while you're here, because it's so. It's so fun to watch you work, man.

It feels mutual, man.

Truly Like, I sit here and a. Our conversation is one that I could have for hours. And it's, you know, everything you say, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Cause that connects to that. So it's really great. Like, your content is fantastic, but then watching you work with people is, you know, you just. You have such a. There's such a precision with your answers, and it shows your seasonality and just how long you've been doing this and how good you are at it and why you are where you are. So, you know, we're friends, you know, in life, and I appreciate that. But on a professional level, thank you for being here, because it's really helped a lot of people.

Thank you, man. That was so much fun. It's rare that, you know, you get to sit down with someone who's, like, devoted to something similar to you and fascinated with in the same way, and just hearing about you. I mean, I've learned so much just by listening to you today, which is beautiful for me. And I think that keeps that mindset of we're always learning, we're always growing about love. We're not. You don't get to a place where you figured it out or you've mastered it and it's perfect. And I feel like. Like I've learned tons of you today. I love, love watching you and your relationship, and I think that's important, too. Having healthy people and healthy relationships around you is a big part of keeping your healthy relationship as well. So, really grateful that we got to spend this time together, man. Thank you. Thanks, man.

Appreciate it. Thank you to all of you out there. We'll see you soon and in the next round of love life. Take care, be well, and thank you for spending your time with us today. Sa.