The Dangers Of Dating Someone High Status

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At Amica, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica, empathy is our best policy. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Love Life podcast with me, Matthew Hussey and the JAMs crew, James and Audrey and Stephen. We are very excited to be joining you today, not only to hang out, Have some great chat, enjoy our time together. We have some great emails that have come in both in voice recordings and written emails that we are gonna respond to today. This show has been co-authored by you, the listeners, and there is one particular email that we go deep on from someone you may think is an unlikely listener of this podcast who happens to be dating a big celebrity. And we talk about the dynamic that has led to this person sacrificing their own needs. Now, dating a celebrity may feel unrelatable, but what isn't unrelatable is being with someone who isn't willing to invest in the way that we are. What do you do when someone seems to want different things and gives you all the legitimate excuses in the world as to why they can't give us what we want. All of that is coming up in this episode. It's going to be a great one. Strap in for the Love Life podcast. well come back to the love life podcast. I get more excited every week now that we're doing one of these. Do you all feel the same?

Actually, yeah, I feel like really finding our groove.

I do, too. You are?

I hate it.

You hate it? You get nervous every time? Not really.

No, no, no. I really enjoy it now, actually. I feel. I feel good about it. I. Yeah. I agree. It's good fun.

I'm tingling.

No, we're talking about the podcast.

I have drunk four cups of coffee, so that's not good.

Well, we'll see. I suppose this will be the experiment. Before we go any further, want to make sure we have a whole set of free guides that people can download. And the one that we are featuring today is @moveonstrong.com Can we get, Audrey, you saying it in your famous American accent?

Every episode, it wouldn't be an episode without it. MoveOnStrong.com.

That sounds like the Spotify thing, if you don't pay for Spotify, that just comes in the middle of a song.

Well, if you have someone that it didn't work out with, and you want to know what to do, maybe there is some part of you that is struggling to let go. Maybe you're trying to figure out if you did have any contact with them, what should that look like so that it's the most high value contact you can have? There are so many things that people do wrong in this situation that hurt their chances with ever being with that person again, if that is the right thing. And that is a giant if. But in this free video, I show you the best way to go about it. If you're still in touch with somebody that you want to rekindle it but you're not sure the right way to go about it. And the beauty of this video is that the advice I give also makes you the most attractive version of you in the process that can go and attract someone better for you if it's not to be with that person. Very good. Well, that's it. Moveonstrong.com, check it out. It's absolutely free video from us to you today. Before we get onto our main topic of today, we also put out the word for voice notes, asking people to email in podcast@matthewhussie.com, a 60-second or less voice note that we could play on the air. So here we have Isaiah Strong. Hey, Matthew, I really love your podcast, and I enjoy it a lot. I think it offers so much value to its listeners. because I know I've found a lot of value in it listening to it over the past year. And the chemistry and the jokes between the four of you guys between jams is so awesome and I really enjoy it. And being a college-aged male, I'm not sure how typical that is for your audience demographic, but the reason I keep listening to you guys is because the principles you share about self-love, dating, and just being a good person in general have really helped me out and it's led me to recommend you to many of my friends. Just keep up the great work and you guys are awesome.

That's so nice.

How lovely, Isaiah. Thank you so much. And I think you're in good company because we have a lot of men listening to this podcast these days as evidenced by the inbox. It's not just women in there. We have a lot of guys too. And how ahead of the curve you are to be listening to this in college.

I have some hope for Gen Z. Yeah. How emotionally intelligent is Isaiah? None of my friends would have been listening to a podcast like this when they were in college.

You certainly wouldn't have been.

No, wouldn't have been.

Sitting there swilling beer in your dorm.

Yeah, Jay and the scruffy Sacramento mates. I mean, Lord knows.

Anyway, everyone.

We've had another voice note from Amanda. I have been listening to Matthew for years. Gosh, I can't even remember the first time. I heard some of his content and super thankful for all of the great advice and it continues to be wonderful, especially with the new additions to the team. And I'm happy to report that I am getting married in October of this year, so things have worked out just dandy. So I wish all of you best.

Wishes and thank you so much for.

All of your help and I hope to hear much, much more about pickles in the future. And you will, no doubt, Amanda Brooke. Thank you so much for, well, I mean, just a lovely success story, really.

And congratulations.

Congratulations.

Congratulations, Amanda.

Congratulations from me, too.

Now, we did have a voice note from Emily peel, not just telling us how wonderful we are, but. pOsinG a challenging question. So here is Emily Peel. Hi, Gems.

It's Emily from Melbourne. I'm doing a voice memo because it's relevant to my question, which is for Matt.

So a little while ago, Matt suggested.

That we ladies have a phone call.

With someone we've been chatting to on a dating site to get to know them a bit better.

And so I've suggested this to some.

Guys, about 10 of them, and two.

Of them have had a chat with.

Me, and the rest of them have either ignored me or completely deleted me.

I've now asked the guys I'm currently.

Chatting with, you know, what's the problem with a phone call or a video chat?

And they said, oh, well, that's very intense.

And so now I'm wondering what Matt's.

Thoughts are about that feedback and whether he would stick to his original advice or reconsider.

Thank you.

Appreciate you all the best. Now, Stephen, I have some thoughts on this because I think this forced me to kind of really sit and reevaluate. I didn't want to just brush this off. I wanted to really think about is there a point here that we might have to go back and revise some of that advice. As a single man, what's your opinion on someone trying to get on a call before a date?

I think it says a lot about where we are as a society that We would rather actually get ourselves out the door, go to a date, have drinks with someone we don't know, a total stranger, than hear their voice on the phone. There's something very odd about that.

And yet you're someone who probably, if I were to create categories of people, I would probably put you in the category of people that aren't big talkers on the phone.

Well, not, yeah, but if I'm, I, that's true in general, but if I'm getting to know someone and dating, I prefer talking on the phone to texting, quite honestly.

Well, let me ask you this. If you met someone in London and you knew that it's, you could actually go out on a date with them this weekend, would you, and they said, hey, why don't we jump on the phone and say hi? Would you then find that intense knowing that you might be able to see them as soon as this weekend?

No, I feel that would give me some comfort and reassurance hearing their voice, how they are on the phone, speech patterns, do we get on, is it awkward? That would give me some re- because when you're first going on the date with someone you've just been texting, that is, the fear is, oh no, are we gonna get there and realize there's no real chemistry? Now, if it's first conversation and someone is pushing to the phone call, you are a bit like, oh, it's a bit like if someone's pushing you quickly to that before there's any rapport or desire or connection, you're like, oh, that's a bit much. And I don't want to suddenly have this person with my phone number and they can call me and God knows what. So I get. I get if it's early. But if you think I might go on a date with this person this week and we're getting to that point, I don't know. Like, if they sell it as, like, let's have a five, ten minute chat. I'm totally down for that.

Thoughts, Audrey?

Well, my thoughts are that if, you know, she specifically said guys that she'd met on a dating app. And I think the reason why 80 of men haven't responded well is because to go from talking to someone on a dating app to jumping on the phone, I think, can feel a little intense. I feel like it's all about the way that you graduate in communication. So if you go from a dating app, the next organic step feels like adding each other on WhatsApp or getting each other's numbers and switching to text messages. The next sort of organic step after that would be a voice note or a phone call. If you are talking a lot and there's a lot of back and forth and you know that they're sat there texting you not doing anything because for the next, for the last 20 minutes, that's what they've been doing, then it makes sense to sort of say, Are you free if I call you for five minutes or something like that? I think the intensity comes from not actually having earned the level of intimacy where you would just jump on the phone because, and I'm not someone who gets scared off, but I think just in general, people I don't know, even, you know, I'm not talking in dating, but just in general, trying to jump on the phone with me, I find quite overwhelming sometimes. I'm like, oh, there's people who I'm friends with who I, you know, it would, I would need to psych myself up in order to jump on the phone with them. So I can only imagine how it would feel if someone I didn't know at all and didn't even have their number was suggesting it. I think I can understand how it would feel intrusive. So I think it's not about the phone call being a bad idea, but rather there being an organic progression towards the phone call.

I agree with that.

That's my thoughts.

I think the progression matters. And many apps are encouraging more voice notes now. Like Hinge has a thing where you can leave a voice note on your profile and a lot of people do that now. I think, like warming someone up to, We got each other's number and I left you a voice note that was 10 seconds on WhatsApp. Then it's like, I've heard their voice. They're a human, like me. They're not a weirdo. That these things do... You're having little comfort tests as you go. And then picking up the phone isn't such a weird idea.

Yeah, or even I always think calling someone when you're on the way somewhere. and you're just like, Hey, I'm about to join up with friends in a couple of minutes. I just thought I'd say hi while I'm walking. I always think that kind of call is much easier even for someone else to receive than for you to be like, Just at home, what's up? Then there's no time limit on the call. But if you say to someone, Hey, what's up? I have to go in a couple of minutes because I'm meeting up with friends. I thought I'd just say hi while I'm walking from the station. That then gives someone the relief of, oh, okay, it's just a couple of minutes. And, oh, look, they're busy and they're doing something. And so you can have that kind of a phone call. I do think there's a difference between, if you know you can meet up for a quick coffee date with someone this week, then there may be no need for the call. and in the past, I have said that I would rather get on a call with someone just to be able to find out, as you said, Stephen, if there is a little bit of something, if we get on, if there's a bit of banter or a bit of, you know, just good conversation. But I also acknowledge that coffee isn't that time consuming. You don't have to give up a whole evening for a date. You can just meet someone for a quick coffee somewhere. And if you do that, then you don't necessarily need the phone call. I do think what gets weird is when you're speaking to someone that you have no hope of seeing anytime soon, either because they're in a different city or a different country, or they're traveling right now and you're talking to them, but weeks later, you still only texted.

I totally agree.

That seems weird to me.

I think it's weak and odd.

And as Audrey said, a good graduation, a good a good interim step is if someone is sending you mess, if you've been texting with someone back and forth as a pattern break, send them a voice note back as an answer to one of their questions. Be like, Hey, what's up? I'm just walking to meet my friends. Basically, I guess I prefer this because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you you answer their question by voice note. It's a pattern break. They're hearing your voice. You stand out to them. You're three dimensional and you're appealing to another one of their senses, right? You're appealing to sound, not just or to hearing, not just visually through a text. So that's a nice way of putting yourself on someone's radar and getting them a bit more comfortable with you. If they hear your voice now, you feel more intimate, it feels closer. and then having the call feels less of a big deal as a graduation from that point. You're also, by the way, saying to them, it's also okay if you leave me a voice note. That's the whole point of the word reciprocity in communication. When you do something, you're also giving someone a green light to do that thing with you. So don't be afraid of the voice note. It doesn't have to be the first thing you leave, but a few messages in. If you feel like texting has become a little bit If there's been a lot of texting, it's a nice way to break the pattern.

And I would like to add as a very small point that I think a phone call is a really good way to build momentum with someone after you have been on a date or a couple of dates because it almost links you up in between those times. And it does make the connection feel like it's progressing in the right direction. Because I think when you go on great dates with someone and then you're just texting in between, it can almost slump.

Yes.

And I actually think the phone call at that point is a really useful tool to connect you and make you feel closer to that person. I love that point.

Because it can feel like a downgrade suddenly. Like you have that great date and momentum, and then you just default back to texting. Then it's like, oh, all of that was sort of wasted. We're back to just like, so if you want to keep that momentum up, that's a great way. I mean, I think if we're going to evolve this rule at all, I think it's what you said, Matt, where it's like, it's not necess-- I wouldn't necessarily use the phone call as like the testing ground. Like, do we get along well enough to go on the coffee date? I think phone calls have become so intrusive. I think just because everyone gets like robo calls now, it just feels like it's not necessarily the greatest feeling when your phone rings. It feels like some kind of obligation. I would say the most important thing is to just earn it. So like you said, Audrey, transfer from the dating app to the WhatsApp, to the text, to the voice note. And when you leave a voice note, don't feel like, what I wouldn't do is say like, in the same voice note, say, Hey, leave me a voice note. It's like, no, no, no, just leave the voice note, let it be. And you have to kind of earn each of those steps. As silly as it sounds, I think we kind of have to evolve a.

Little bit with the times. 100% don't overthink the voice note either. If it sounds too scripted and too thought out, then it just comes across as a little creepy.

Don't George Castanza the voice note. He would like in Seinfeld, George Castanza would like write notes about what he was going to talk about on the phone in his hands.

But yeah, don't George Castanza the voice note. Well, thank you so much, Emily, for sending that in and for forcing Matt to upgrade and evolved with the times.

Which, hey, I'm always happy to do it. I think what's great about our content is that it grows with us, it grows with the times, it's not stuck in time. And that's hopefully where we build trust and credibility with everybody, is we're never, never afraid to say we don't agree with ourselves.

Absolutely.

Or as Steve would say, that makes us look weak and we should never capitulate like that.

I've actually, it's funny, I've actually been on many, you know, when I've done dating apps, have mostly not called people, but it's been nice when we have spoken first on the phone. But mostly it has been we just end up going for coffee.

It's not nice if you're a person on a dating app pretending to be single and you have a girlfriend already. And then someone starts calling you.

Wow.

And you're with your girlfriend. That's a very inconvenient thing to happen.

I think you're gonna have to explain where that thought pattern came from because it sounded very random.

He's the master of segue.

I was thinking, well, when Emily sent in this voice note, I was thinking, I bet you some of the guys that instantly deleted her Had a panic because they had either a girlfriend or they had a little more going on in their love lives than they wanted. They had someone they had the potential to hurt, and the last thing they wanted was their phone actually ringing while they were with someone.

There's that moment in the movie Trainwreck where Amy Schumer goes on a nice date with a lovely guy. And then, she's like talking with her friend about it, but the phone rings and he's calling and they freak out, like, oh my God, oh, stalker!

You!

Know?

Like, he freaked out, like, why would he... Oh, this is so interesting.

Yeah, there's that feeling that if someone's calling you, then they can call you anytime.

Yeah.

Even though if they only text you, they could still do that, but there's some... Text somehow lives in another realm. Yeah.

Don't just suddenly call their phone.

If you do want some good text messages you can send to someone, head on over to 9Texts.com that's the number 9 texts.com where we have a whole guide of nine specific texts you can send to create attraction, flirt and make yourself stand out from other people that they might be talking to on an app or texting right now.

It'll help you graduate.

And don't just listen to it actually right now pause the episode and go to nine texts.com to download it because it's actually really good.

Well, I love this. I love this as a podcast. You know, people can they don't even have to pause it. You know, right now they're just listening.

They're opening up they can open up a tab right now. Yeah. And if you didn't get that link.

Just do that hit that little button that allows you to go back 15 seconds.

The rewind button. Go to nine texts.com and get your phone out and send one of those texts right now.

And before you push that skip forward 15 second button, I just, in case you did that, I'll just give you the link one more time, 9text.com this.

Is suddenly starting to feel like a Christopher Nolan movie. Let's have a couple of quick reviews. We had one from Veronica in Texas. This was on iTunes. Stephen, would you like to read this one out for us?

Yes, sir.

I love how you said we've had so many iTunes review as if it's like some kind of, you know, coincidental miracle that everybody has decided.

Are you guys ever gonna let this go? Well, there is. I asked for reviews once, and now you'll never let me live it down. There are so many reviews that say.

Hey, Matt, here's your review. Close.

Hey, closed mouths don't get fed. Imagine the people who don't.

People who don't know the podcast are just seeing on the reviews that. The host asks for me.

Oh, I'm sorry. Do you guys... Is it... you hate getting all of these lovely things said about you?

No, come on.

You've had enough of it. No, you sit there and you love them.

No, we don't.

You're basically turning into me.

You're making me the fall guy.

You're turning into me. I say to Matt all the time, can you tell me three reasons why you love me? And they have to be different from the last time I asked you. And it's basically the same thing.

Yeah.

Asking for compliments.

I like that you asked for three, though. That's interesting.

And you have five seconds.

No, there's no time limit.

M3 is good because it makes you dig deeper on the third one.

Yeah, the first one's always, you know, a bit of a dud, and then the other two are pretty good, so.

Good thinking.

Well, we'll remember that for next time. Yeah, sorry, Steve. What does Veronica say?

Veronica from Texas says, Regular deep issues explained in a magisterial manner. Very nice, Veronica. She says, I can't just can't stop listening to your episodes. It's so relatable the way that feelings and issues are described. I love all the useful tips and resources. You, quote, guys, have given me a lot of hope and warmth during very sad days that I've experienced after a short-lived relationship with a narcissist. Knowledge gave me the power I needed to step away from something really toxic. Thanks.

That is lovely. Thank you, Veronica. Joey Lover says, who even needs therapy now? Just kidding, of course. However, listening to this podcast has truly been so helpful and insightful. It's so realistic and up to date and truly touches on everything you could think of or wonder. It's a bit like the New York Times, you know, and its slogan is all the news that's fit to print.

Everything you could think of or wonder.

That's a good one. Yeah, that's our new slogan. Everything you could think of or wonder.

And nothing less.

And nothing less. The Love Life Podcast, nothing short of everything you could think of or wonder. I've learned many helpful tips that I can't wait to put to the test the next time I meet someone I'm interested in. Some of my favorite episodes are about getting too obsessed with someone too soon. Whoops. How to deal with getting ghosted, haven't we all? And are you being love bombed? I knew it. Thank you, Matt and Steve. You two are so wonderful.

That's so lovely.

Thank you.

Did you like my read?

That was a great read.

It was a great read.

Feel free or don't to leave us a review on iTunes. It's not like I sit there reading every single one of them. It's up to you.

Shall we go on to our main topic for today?

Yeah, we had this email that we were thinking, what do we want to cover as a main topic today? And then we had an email that just felt, it felt just, there was so much in it to talk about that it could be the main topic of the day, even though, you know, normally, of course, we would just save an email question till the end. this just felt too good. So we had this email in, I'm actually not going to name this person because they say a couple of things in the email that might, I think, mean they want their anonymity, even though she didn't actually ask for this to be anonymous. I'm going to err on the safe side here. So she said, hello Matthew and the rest of jams. Love the podcast. this may be a bit unorthodox to be asking for advice since I am a prominent male dating coach specializing in seduction and attraction. I do want to clarify here that this is a woman who coaches men. That's what she means by male dating coach. She's a dating coach for men. However, we all know that when things are too close to home, sometimes all we need is an unbiased opinion. Coach or not. This is where you come in. You see, me and this guy have been seeing each other steadily about once or twice a week since the beginning of May. We're both busy, as I often give the same advice about the importance of staying busy so as not to contract oneitis. But this guy is different than your average bear. First off, he's a celebrity in his own right. in a certain sector of Hollywood, not going into detail, but he is a big, big deal. He values talented women and drive, to which my dating coach company has blown up in the last year and he loves to hear all about it. Things have been going very well between us, but I could tell there's something there, a blockade of sorts. and I was right. About a month ago, he confided in me all of this intense trauma he went through during the pandemic and with his last relationship. Big deal stuff. Huge. Because this guy is a big deal in his world. So his problems aren't just your typical problems. The girlfriend he was with for years was diagnosed with borderline. and other severe mental illness that I don't want to reveal for privacy reasons. They even created television shows together. He claims he tried everything to keep the relationship from falling apart, but it did. A year and a half ago, she was his first love. This matched with other work-related traumas resulting in PTSD. Tears were shed in the conversation, and all in all, it was a really beautiful morning of us being completely vulnerable with each other. This is when I really started to fall for him. He's in lots of therapy and discusses his feelings well, which I love. I have secure attachment style. I know not to text him too much or too little. But the thought of what are we? kept eating me alive. Two weeks ago, I asked him, what are you looking for in dating? I clarified by saying, Not that I feel any decisions need to be made now. but I will say that I'm getting in too deep for this to be a casual fling. And I asked him if dating could be a possibility in the future. He said yes. This is already a long email, so I'll try to cut this short. We had another conversation about it last week because in truth, I wanted to know if he was seeing other girls since I myself ended things with another guy and I genuinely don't feel like going on other dates. he clarified. If you're asking if I'm seeing anyone else consistently, then no, I'm not. Which I don't know what that means exactly. The conversation basically led into him revealing that he's been putting off the what are we? convo because of all of the trauma and PTSD surrounding his ex and the possibility of being a boyfriend. He says he knows it's unfair to me because I'm nothing like her. and he promised he will start bringing up dating again in therapy. I also am finding that many of our dates are during the week. He's met my friends twice. I've yet to meet his. He isn't bringing me into his life yet. Should I be worried? Or not yet? I don't want to give up on this guy. But how long do I wait? What do I do during this limbo time? It's not like it's been months and months and he's still not committing. But it's also feeling like this is a barrier we either need to cross together or the place I leave him behind. Do I create more space? What does it mean by being a challenge when you put it into practice? Is it too soon to move forward like this? Should I just let things be? Should I continue to date others or honor this feeling of desiring only him? From one coach to another, Thank you.

There's so much there, isn't there? It's such an interesting email.

Jamison, I'm curious what your first reaction to this email is.

Why?

I don't know. I just, I feel like you will have a perspective on this.

I worry that my reaction is not as compassionate and sweet as both yours or Audrey's might be.

And that's why I'd like to hear it. I do.

But Jameson's not worried he'll be more compassionate than me.

I'm not sure where Steve I think me and Steve might be pretty simpatico on this. I think, I just think this guy is so full of shit. Like, this guy that is, like, feeding her all of this stuff about his PTSD and, like, his I mean, and just the way that he's created this dynamic where she's framing it like he's just such a big deal. And I just, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've talked to you guys about this before where it's like, I think people throw around the term narcissist too much. But if I had to bet my bottom dollar, I feel like this dude is probably a narcissist that she's hung up on. And it's forcing her to just really forget all of the advice that she would probably tell somebody else that she would be coaching.

I mean, Jameson. With a swish.

Okay. You agree?

I don't know why my instinct was to go to you on this one.

But boy, am I glad I did.

But boy, was I right? No, I just think that was really, really spot on. I don't know how to add to that without doing some reiteration. But to me, you hit the nail on the head. I think I don't like this guy just from listening to him secondhand. And it's not like she's even tried to paint a negative picture of him.

Quite the opposite. She tried really hard to paint a positive, compassionate picture of him. And I just feel like she's feeding into his narrative there.

I think she's just doing what everybody does when they think that they've stumbled across someone valuable and rare. you know, we do it in this instance, she's obviously valuing the fact that he's a big deal in his own industry. And, you know, she mentions, like you say, the fact that he's a big, big deal quite a few times. So I think she's obviously consciously or otherwise decided that if she lets this go, she's not going to find something like this again. You know, I think people do it with looks, they do it with careers, they do it with everything. You know, you can meet someone who has an eclectic, amazing social group, and you suddenly go, well, if I leave this person, I also will not find somebody who brings me into their life and does all the fun things that I get to do with them, or I'll never find someone who's as attractive as the person I'm dating. And so we then make these allowances because we just sort of elevate them and we tolerate all of their bad behavior. If he wasn't such a big deal. I wonder whether she would be putting up with half of his if she thought that she could find another person like him. So I think there's a bit of overvaluing the wrong thing here just, just from reading it. And that's not to say that they don't have a, a really great time and a good connection. I just think that, you know, if somebody is saying to you, I mean, the bit to me that stood out where I was a bit like, oh, I don't like this guy, is when.

She... Do you mean his line about he's not seeing anyone else consistently?

Yes, that one. When she said... That was a great line.

Classic male logic.

When she said, you know, are you seeing other people? And he said, if you're asking, it's the, if you're asking, if I'm seeing anyone else consistently, then no, I'm not.

That's Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible sneaking into the Museum and dodging every laser in sight.

Exactly.

He's like...

What are you asking?

But basically, what he's saying to her...

If you're asking if I'm seeing anyone else...

I know you just asked a question. Now, if you're just asking that question...

If you're asking specifically, Am I seeing anyone else consistently? Even though you never used that word, Then absolutely no. I'm not.

You're my top bitch.

Am I seeing anyone semi consistently? Well, no.

Am I seeing anyone this weekend? Who I have not seen yet.

Now that depends how you define weekend.

And that's a whole different conversation.

Anyway, we'll get to that.

Do you believe time is a construct? 'Cause I do. Sorry, Audrey.

No, but I...

It's true, though.

It's true. The reason... It sounds harsh that we're making fun, but the reason we asked, because, as you say, he's just completely dodged the question, and he's left her feeling like she's somehow special in a very unspecial answer. To be clear, we're not making fun of her.

No, I know we're not. We're making fun of his logic.

I know, but I can just imagine hearing it if it was my question, That would be sad.

No, of course. Listen, when we like someone, we're all hearing the truth. It doesn't just make us sad. It makes us, it can make us angry, it can make us disappointed, it can make us upset. All of that, I understand, and I have massive compassion for what we have to, look, I'm going to call this person Lisa so that we have something to a name to actually use. Lisa, you have to suspect yourself anytime you write something like this or you have a conversation explaining the situation and you begin with the premise that, let me just caveat this by saying that they are a celebrity. And that, by the way, few people on this earth are dating celebrities because there aren't that many celebrities. But we could all be in the position of dating someone who is high status in a company. who is a successful entrepreneur, who has a lot of status in their particular field or their world. And if you start the conversation, which is a conversation ultimately around your needs not getting met, right? That's what this email is. My needs aren't getting met. I don't feel secure or safe. in this thing. I can't call it a relationship because we're not calling it a relationship between the two of us. I don't feel safe and secure in this. And that's one of the needs that I have, is the need for some sense of certainty that I'm actually investing in something under the same premise that the other person is. She doesn't feel that, which is why she has sent this email. My needs aren't being met. is at the core of this email. Now, when you start an email or a conversation that ultimately is about your needs being met, not being met, and it is pre-faced by, let me just start with, they're a big deal, they're a celebrity, they're a successful business person, they aren't renowned in their field, they are from an important family, whatever it may be. you are already setting up the justification for why your needs don't matter as much in this situation. And you're making a rod for your own back because that's exactly the logic this person may be relying on in order to get away with what they're getting away with. and it's exactly the logic you're using as to why you're going to let this person get away with things that you wouldn't let someone get away with in a normal relationship. Why is it that someone being a celebrity makes your needs matter any less? Why is that true for you? Ask yourself that question. why is it true, not just for him, because by the way, the fact that that could be true for him is a whole different problem, right? There are a lot of important people or famous people or whatever who, whether consciously or they will never admit to it, but unconsciously do actually think other people's needs matter less than theirs. That's just the truth. Anyone that we have a friend who is who deals with famous people a lot because he's a director. And he said, the problem with hanging out with famous people and being friends with them is that a lot of the time you end up realizing that it's always on their terms. It is always about what's good for them. And when you actually need something, you realize you don't have that much of a friendship. Of course, he wasn't talking about every single person who's famous, but there was a point being made that a lot of these people in these kinds of positions will act as if other people's needs aren't as important as theirs. So, but the bigger problem here is that you're subconsciously deciding that your needs don't matter as much because he's a celebrity, which is why you've allowed this justification of, you know, there's been a whole bunch of PTSD surrounding his ex and the things that he's been through with her and work and everything else. It's. And we've said this before, you, in any, in any situation where you're dating someone and they give you a logic. as to why they can't do certain things, why they can't commit to a relationship, why they have no time, why they can't ever meet our family, why they can't come to our side of town, and we always have to go to theirs. Someone may give you a watertight logic as to why that's true. And when they do, if you're an empathetic person, and if on top of that you throw in a healthy dose of, I really want them, then you will buy into that logic. And you'll even sell your friends on the logic. You'll sell people you know on the logic. Lisa is trying to sell us on the logic. And that means you've been converted. But the phrase that we've said in the past, which holds true today, this is not a piece of advice that I have ever thought to change. Because to me, it's just a recipe for finding the right relationship and avoiding unnecessary pain, is you have your reasons, but I have my reality. If my reality is that what you're giving me isn't enough, for me to be happy, then your reasons as to why that is don't really matter. In other words, I don't need to sit around and analyze whether you're in the right or the wrong for those reasons, whether you're being overly dramatic about this, quote, PTSD that you have from this situation. Or whether it truly is this trauma that's going to take you years to get over before you're ready for a relationship. Or whether you're just using it as an excuse because actually you're having your fun right now with people you're not seeing consistently enough to say that you're seeing people consistently. It doesn't actually matter to me which of those three things are true. All that matters is I'm somebody this year, 2022, would like a relationship. And you are not in a position to give me that. It doesn't, it's not about right and wrong, good and bad. It's about what are you actually giving me? Those are the facts. My reality determines how happy I am. your reasons do not. And my reality is that I'm actually not getting from you what I want. And that's the conversation. If you ask, how do you, you know, one of the questions Lisa asks at the end is, what does it mean by being a challenge when you put it into practice? Lisa, I'm going to be brutal with you here. Let me tell you what it doesn't look like. It doesn't look like the conversation you had with him. where you said, what are you looking for in dating? And you said, by the way, this was two weeks ago, somewhere in this email, you said, it's not like we've been dating months and months, but you also say we've been dating for three and a half months. So you have been dating long enough for you to be asking this question and be uncomfortable still seeing them casually. But the way you phrased it to him was, what are you looking for in dating? Not that I feel any decisions need to be made now, which why did you say that? Why did you feel the need to qualify your question with that? And it's not that a decision needs to be made now about marrying each other, but it's perfectly okay for you to say, I need to know whether you actually are interested in seeing each other exclusively to see where this goes, or whether you're still thinking you want to see other people. It's not unreasonable to say that to him, but you didn't say that. You said, not that I feel any decisions need to be made now. So you already gave up your power in that sentence because you already told him in that moment, I'm completely malleable. You don't need to decide anything. All I'm doing is hinting at a question, but I'm too afraid to make any stakes around that. You then say, not that I feel any decisions need to be made now, but I will say that I'm getting in too deep for this to be a casual fling. And could dating be a possibility? in the future.

And him saying yes to that, by the way, I mean, he's saying he's committing to nothing.

He's signing a worthless contract.

He's committing to nothing. It's. Will you maybe in the future be interested in dating me exclusively?

It's like going to a market in London and going, now, if I buy everything today, do you think that there is the possibility that at some point in the future, you may give me a discount. What's the barrow boy on the market gonna say? Yeah, no, of course. Yeah, of course, love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'll tell you what, buy it all today, and at some point in the future, we'll have a chat.

I feel like we need to name this Cockney character. We'll call him Cockney Tom, 'cause this is like your Tom Cruise Mission Impossible character.

I absolutely can commit at some point in the future to having a little chat.

Now, if you're asking me.

But actually, you know, what's really something that Lisa should be getting kind of mad about is that she said in this conversation that it's getting too deep for her and that essentially what she's communicating is that she is worried about getting hurt because she's getting too invested. And what he hasn't said is, you know what? We probably do need to talk about the fact that, you know, what we're doing here, because I don't want you to get hurt and I don't want you to get too invested. Instead, he went, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, potentially in the future, I might potentially be open to something. Just carry on.

Yeah, he's paid no attention to how she actually said, which is, I can get hurt. He's shown no care for that.

He doesn't care. Yeah, exactly. He doesn't care.

Does not care. And that's if, by the way, Lisa, if you're listening to this and there's a part of you that's going, I don't like, you know, this is the way you're talking about this whole thing. I don't like it. You're making fun of it or whatever, get mad at him. That what we're saying is highlighting, I'm not minimizing your pain. I'm not minimizing the fact that it's gonna hurt you. to have spent time investing in someone who you like. And it always sucks to lose someone we like. All of that is valid, and I get it, and I don't want you to suffer. But the reason I have to make fun of this is because I don't want you to suffer. It's because I need you to actually see through this stuff. You've been giving it too much time of day, 'cause you're so close to it. And when you're really close to someone, let me tell you, I don't blame you because proximity is power. When you're close to someone, someone can sell us on a logic that we start to believe because we're close to them and because we're giving them the benefit of the doubt and because they're shedding tears and because we don't want to be mean about it. But this person is shedding tears for himself.

Correct.

Not you.

Yeah. He didn't show any particular Contrition at any point in that email.

And also, he talks a lot about his PTSD with his past relationship. I said it in either the last podcast or the one before. But we as women, I think, have to be really, really mindful to not let men use us for the girlfriend experience, which I think is exactly what he's doing here. He's staying up all night shedding tears over his past relationship with you, but then saying that he can't commit to anything right now, but maybe potentially in the future. he will stop seeing other people consistently or whatever he said. So it's also after three months or so, he's kind of using your patience and good nature because you're allowing him to do it. And the reality is that anybody, whether they have status or something about them that makes them valuable to the outside world, the best way to stand out to people like that is actually to have healthy boundaries because maybe he's just used to people doing whatever the hell he wants because ultimately that's how everybody else treats him because they're all too scared to lose him. Yeah. But you have to value how you feel about yourself and the fact that you have a sort of healthy and non-anxious, non-avoidant attachment style, whatever you call it, the normal one. You know, secure. Protect that because actually dating people like that is exactly the kind of thing that messes you up. And I think you have to protect that and just stand out from everyone else by saying, this is what I would like. And actually, I'm not asking for a lot. I'm asking for exclusivity. I'm asking for this to maybe be something where we actually look to see where it goes because we've been dating for three and a half months. So if you can't give me that because you're not ready, because of your past relationship, your PTSD, your whatever it is, that's absolutely fine. But then we can't continue as we are because ultimately, as you have stated, He's not meeting your needs. And I actually think that's a better way to stand out and to even make him want you than to just agree to everything he says.

Now, Audrey, hang about. Because I do you a deal. I do you a little deal. All right. You stick around. and I promise I'll bring it up in therapy at some point. At some point. Well, that is true. Not this week, because I've got some work stuff to bring up this week. But I promise you stick around, love. At some point, I'll bring it up in therapy. All right.

Cockney Cruise.

That actually brings up a good point.

The.

The being in therapy and stuff thing where. I think we can separate having empathy for someone's issues with, like you say, deciding this is now the reality that is dictated to us. Like you can say, that sucks, you're going through that, that's really difficult, but you still have the decision, does this mean my reality completely compromises everything I need? And I think if we're good natured, you can fall into a trap as well of what I call if X then Y, where people go, this person has so much great stuff on paper, and if only they didn't have the previous trauma with the girlfriend issues, if only they weren't, didn't have a wandering eye, if only they didn't have these mother issues that mean they never want to commit, then If that block was gone, then we would just be great. And that person can also walk you into that mindset where they're like, oh, if only, you know, it sucks I have this. And they might be true that they have them, but it'd be like, if only I didn't have that, then we would be golden.

It's fantasy, it's science fiction, because you don't have that. So thinking if only we had that is you're now writing a science fiction novel. A science fiction romance.

It's like someone goes, oh, if only Don Draper wasn't a serial womanizer, like, you know, the women in Don Draper's life. If only he wasn't like that. Oh, he'd be this great, great man, this great husband.

Yeah.

And you know, the other thing I just, I think is really important because I actually suspected early in the beginning of this episode, Matt, you said, you have to suspect yourself. why are you compromising your needs just because he is a celebrity and a big deal? And I think the answer to that is, as I said, because what if I don't find anyone else like him? So if I let him go, if I assert my standards, he might walk away from me. And then I don't have him anymore and I can't get myself another one. I think it's really important in this to question where the values are in terms of what Lisa is valuing in this relationship. I'm not saying that's the only thing she's valuing. I'm sure it's not.

What's she valuing and what's she getting?

Yeah, but also in terms of like the reason you think that this person is irreplaceable isn't because he's making you happy. So you're valuing the totally wrong thing. You know, if you're saying, I'm so afraid I won't find someone else who makes me feel as good as alive, as seen as heard, who makes me laugh so much, have such great sex with. Fine, one thing. But if it's like who has so much status, that's nothing. That's not really anything you can work with. That's never going to bring you happiness. It has to be accompanied with so many other things in order for it to be valuable.

If someone makes you excited and you have great sex with them and you have all these things and they're not meeting your needs, they still can't make you happy.

No, of course. But what I mean is, I think Yeah, absolutely. And I think, but I think this.

Is probably, I just wanted to say that because Lisa will absolutely come back and say all of those things are true.

No, exactly. Fair enough. But I suppose, I mean more, can you be happy with this person long term? Do they possess qualities and traits that actually make you feel good in terms of safe and secure and not insecure, not like you're questioning yourself, you don't know where you stand, not that you're alone. and all of these different things. And I think, yeah, I just think instead of being so afraid to lose him for his status, just forget about that and look at the person you're losing and what he's actually bringing you. If you strip him of all of that, because all of that long term just doesn't matter if he doesn't make you happy. It never will. And it doesn't make him valuable as a standalone trait.

Lovely. Jameson, as I was reading this email originally, when it came into the inbox, there was a. A name I coined. Steve, I'm wondering what you think of this. This is the name I've coined for when men or anybody. It's not just. It's not just single out men, but I think there's a. There's a. we see this a lot in men have just the right amount of pain to get what they want, but not give you what you want. I'm calling it the Goldilocks pain paradox.

Really nice.

You, you know, you go into the house. He, he tries the, he tries the cold porridge and goes, oh, to. No. No sex with you. Not seeing you a couple of nights a week. Too cold. Oh, this. This one wanted giving you a relationship actually being with you, not sleeping with other people. Too hot. Getting exactly what I want, but not giving you the things you want. Just right. It's the it's the appropriate amount of pain to sell someone on to get everything you want while withholding the specific thing they want.

Brilliant.

It really made me laugh when he said it to me.

Just ask you just just the next time he tells you all of this stuff. I want you to remember the Goldilocks pain paradox. He somehow has the sweet spot of pain that allows him to get all of his needs met while not meeting your needs. It's quite specific amount of pain, isn't it? We should remind everybody, if you want to leave us an email or a voice note, send it to podcast@matthewhussie.com Also, please do give us a review on iTunes. We love reading them in each episode. I just, I've been reading the reviews, guys. People are loving it. Our numbers, the number of people who are listening to this podcast, keeps going up significantly. I mean, it's... You said yourself, Jameson, didn't you? You can't wrap your head around how many people are actually listening to this podcast now. I just don't wrap my head around.

It, because they would just make it make for bad podcasting. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I'm worried about what I'm gonna say. Well, I'm just talking to my pal Matt.

We've now got to the stage where we can put out a request to all of our listeners and they will, there will be someone in the audience who can meet that request. Recently we said, for those of you that are new to the podcast, we sort of coined Stephen, we've corrected this. Stephen was the original author of this acronym, but we've coined the acronym jams. Jamison, Audrey, Matthew and Stephen. And I basically said, you know, does anyone out there, they, anyone got a background in music? Might want to put together a little jingle for jams. And, guys, you won't believe it. Someone's actually done it.

Someone.

Have we got a jingle?

Jam. There is a singer out there who I suppose maybe has some experience in music production as well. But she has put together a jingle. Her name is Andrea Gal. Andrea Gal, G-A-L, and I'm gonna give her Instagram out as well. It's @AndreaGalOfficial. Because if you are currently in need of a singer, a tune, a jingle, This woman has cracked it in one for us.

So it's nothing short of a jingle prodigy.

Get ready, because this is the jingle that she came back to us with. And guys, I'm gonna be honest, when I saw it, I thought, oh no, what if it's bad? What if one of our audience, one of our dear beloved listeners, has sent in something and it's bad? I could tell you right now I had nothing to worry about. Listen to this.

They are the gems, help where they can. Inspiration in life and love and confidence, they'll make you laugh. Sometimes you'll cry, and that is why.

Pickles, beech and spares we love. the jams.

I mean, I love Steven's face when she said pickles, pears and jam. He just lit up.

Like, he put pickles, peaches and pears into the song.

It's, it's a masterpiece. I, I just love the emotiveness of pickles, peaches, puddings. It's just, it's beautiful.

I think it's pickles, peaches, pears.

I think it is. Pickles, peaches, pears. Yeah.

Sorry, I got to play it one more time just for the audience out there, cuz it I know people will be listening to that going, that's astonishingly good. They are the gems.

Help where they can. Inspiration in life and love and confidence, they'll make you laugh. Sometimes you'll cry, and that is why.

Pickles, Beach and Spares, we love The gems.

Just beautiful.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

I like that she's done that thing, Jay, you said that Eminem does sometimes where you rhyme two words that don't usually go together. Like she says can and inspiration, and it's just, you know, unexpected rhyming there.

Lyrically, she's just on the next level and, you know, musically also, it's just a real combination of talents there. and it's all. And it was just all from the goodness of her heart. It's so wholesome, too.

Well, Andrea, in her email, she wrote, hi, Jams. You guys have honestly changed my outlook on life, and I'm truly thankful for that. Not to mention you're entertaining and keeping me company while I work. I would have really loved to have joined your virtual Retreat in November. It's just outside of my budget right now. Planning for next year. I know that I'd get so much out of it, considering how much I get from your podcast. I wrote a jams jingle as requested. I hope you love it. Feel free to share it on your podcast. All I ask is that you also share my name and Instagram handle if you do use it. That name again is Andrea Gal, who will infamously now be the person that created the jams jingle. And her Instagram handle is @ Andrea Gal official. Go and follow this amazing woman.

I don't think that's infamy. I think that's just fame in general.

Oh, that's true. That's true. She'll go down in the Love Life podcast history books.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Andrea.

A friend of the show.

Can we work, I feel like we need to work out some sort of songwriter discount for the fact that she has sent in a jingle that is so good for jams.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I think we should do exactly that.

Let's figure it out. I'm going to Andrea, we will reach out to you. Audrey's making a note right now. We're going to reach out to you and figure out what that jingle discount is to make it so that you absolutely can get to the virtual retreat in November. And now the much awaited segment of this podcast. Audrey in the archives. Have you guys been looking forward to this? I get really excited about this now.

Have you got the jingle?

I don't even know if you could call this a jingle. I think this is the portal to the other world that we step into for this.

Have you pulled up the portal for us?

Oh, yes, absolutely. The portal has just opened. And there she goes now. The section of the podcast. where Audrey goes deep into the lair of our archives to find a piece of content from one of our previous programs, something that can bear us hence into the rest of our love lives with more confidence, more magic, more attraction. I see her now going down in the elevator, rummaging around in her little sack. looking for that perfect piece of advice to bring us back. But there she comes now, back up level by level, until she reaches us. What scroll has she found? What secret forbidden piece of knowledge has she dug up long since forgotten? Welcome back, Audrey. What did you find?

So ridiculous.

How dare you. So this is the section where you go back through all of our programs since the beginning and pick out a piece of advice with your fresh eyes that caught your attention, something you liked. So what did you find? And where was it from?

Well, I actually, can I just say, it never ceases to amaze me how creative this segment is and like how just how well put together it was from you.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's really, you really paint a picture and, you know, create a world. I just like the idea of you.

Rummaging around your little sack.

Yeah, I know. Thank you. And earlier you called me a mole, so that's nice.

It's like a sort of like a French dobby. in Harry Potter.

I'd say that as a compliment. I love Dobie. Great guy. So what I have dug up from the archives is actually a text from Momentum text, which is a program that you and Jameson created, I believe. And it's really brilliant. It has a bunch of different messages. I think it's like 70 or so messages. that you can use in various different situations to create attraction and momentum. Anyway, it's a really cool program. And you basically started talking about this concept in texting of gracious impatience. You said, paradoxically, some people need to see us not waiting or at the very least becoming graciously impatient in order to wake up to our value. This is of course when we're texting them and when we are dating someone. Some, of course, will wake up too late, but that's their problem, not ours. These texts therefore demonstrate gracious impatience, so that at worst someone realizes their absence is wearing thin and at best they come to see us as someone they must make a move with or risk losing altogether. So I just really love this idea of gracious impatience. one of the messages that you gave, and there are multiple to exemplify this, is when you are texting back and forth with someone and they haven't asked you out on a date. So you, maybe you met them out or, you know, on a coffee shop somewhere, or maybe you met them on a dating app and you have been messaging a lot, but they're just not sort of actually making a move and asking you out. You have said, So, mister, are you going to ask me out or can I expect a how's your week text every week for the rest of my life? I think the word mister works better in America and culturally speaking. I think in England, the cynical English that we are would probably see through that in terms of it being a.

Bit too kind of you say Lord.

So, Lord. No. So I would, I would, I would tweak it if I was, if I was speaking to somebody in England to. So, dot, dot, are you going to ask me out or can I expect a how's your week text every week for the rest of my life? But Mr. Is good because it does bring that kind of playfulness, authoritative, Stern tone to it. So I do think in America, it probably works very nicely. But I just thought it was a really nice text because you're directly asking what you want and you're doing it in a graciously impatient way, as you put it. And I think it's a really effective way of just getting somebody to actually go, oh, she wants to go out with me. Or he wants to go out with me. Okay, yeah, let's go out. Let's do it. It shows confidence, and I like it.

Well, what I think is really kind of crucial there with the mister line is that it adds a little element of flirtation because it's not it is it's it's gracious impatience, but it's also there's a little bit of a hint of a sizzle. Like it's like, oh, mister, it's something sexy about calling somebody mister, even if you're doing it with like a little little slap on the butt here where it's like, so mister, you're gonna ask me on a date this weekend?

But you are American, so I still think my point stands.

I like mister.

Okay.

Steve, which side do you fall on? I'm curious.

No, I like mister. It can be cute.

Okay. I've been completely.

If you like Audrey's, you can do governor. Right? Yeah.

Obviously, if you do want Audrey's version, governor is. So, governor accepted title.

Okay.

Squire.

I mean, I didn't get a PhD to be called Mr. I'll say that.

So, Doctor.

Oh, dear. All right, Doc.

Well, in any case, the momentum text, if you wanted to potentially have a look at those messages, I think it's only six dollars, which I was really shocked about, actually, when I was. When I was in the archives.

It's either six or seven dollars. Not that I think that that should matter.

It's basically the price of an overpriced coffee, which, you know...

I'd say that's an underpriced coffee these days.

I mean, yeah, Jesus, where we go to get coffee...

It's the price of a gallon of gasoline in some places in LA.

It's the price of an oat milk latte. Yeah, well, exactly.

And there are so many... You're listening to Bloomberg... you're listening to Bloomberg Economic Data. The Inflation Update with Jamieson Jordan.

The link to go and get that program, that is only $7 or $6 is momentumtexts.com and we will leave it.

In the episode description in case you wanted to download it.

Well, I thought it was a wonderful find, Audrey. And is that where she's going now? She's descending now into the elevator.

Goodbye.

See you next week.

See you next week. Well, before we do our final wrap up, I wanted to play this because I thought it was just a really beautiful voice note that came in from one of our previous virtual retreat attendees. Check it out.

Hi, Matthew Hussey team. I'm Lydia. I just want to send in this voice memo to say how much I love your your products and everything that you've done along the journey of me starting over again after a big breakup in 2018. And I remember at the virtual retreat, I even got a chance to do a live Q&A session with Matthew at the time. And I just couldn't believe how far I've gone through, but just because all the experience and the the real changes that happened within me to gain the core confidence out of that virtual retreat that really triggers me to a better and greater path of my life. And now, yeah, anyways, I just want to send this really, really great thank you to all of you guys.

And yes, thank you so much, Lydia. So lovely to hear from one of our past retreat attendees. Of course, we have A November retreat coming up this year. It is our final retreat of the year, taking place from the 11th to the 13th of November. We would love to see you there and you can apply to be part of that three-day coaching immersive experience with me and all of us here at JAMS by going to mhvirtualretreat.com Now, Stephen, are you ready for the wrap up today?

I guess.

Did you enjoy the wrap up last time?

I did, yeah. A real monologue, a real tour de force. So have you got, have you written another one today?

Well, I haven't written anything. I, it's more just sort of, well, I, I say, I'll ask you this, Steve. Are there any things that you think should definitely kind of feature in the wrap up today? Any just key moments from today?

Probably something about the song, maybe something about porridge, something about celebrities.

All right, great. I can work with that.

So.

Second time we're doing this, this is the love life wrap up. [lt's been a wonderful episode. We've had so many wonderful people contribute to today. We've had Veronica Texas, we've had Joey Lover, we've had the incredible man from college who is looking for an edge by listening to this and is having his heart opened up by everything we're doing. We've had a song about Jam A song, a real life song sent to us by one of our beloved listeners. We talked about dating celebrities. We've talked about growing in Hong Kong. We've talked about Audrey in the archives, the little mole that she is going down to get our secret scrolls of wisdom. We've talked about the Goldilocks pain paradox, that sweet spot of pain that allows you to get exactly what you want while giving the other person none of what they want and how to avoid such a person because ultimately you have to be the custodian of your own needs. You cannot expect anyone else to be the gatekeeper for your happiness. You have to be it for yourself.

You.

Have to live by what's right for your reality. instead of subjecting yourself to somebody else's reasons. So with that, we say goodbye from me, Matthew Hussey, Steven Hussey, Audrey Lestrat and Jameson Jordan. You take care, everybody.

Just really.

Oh, we're clapping that.

Okay.

Okay.

We'll see you next time on Love Life.