The one with Matthew Hussey

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Our next guest is made. My mate fancies you. Into an art form. He's the dating guru's dating guru and can help you love life. His new book, Love Life: How to Raise youe Standards, Find youd Person, and Live Happily no Matter what, is out now. So let's all say, do you come here often? To the super fussy Matthew Hussain. All right, Matthew.

Good morning. What's going on, guys? How are you?

I don't think I've ever had an introduction like that before.

And he's had lots of introductions. He's done 65 podcasts for this new book. That's global coverage, that's what you need. How did you get the job?

Oh man, 17 years ago I started working with people in their love lives, which is it's been a long, long road.

You were still a teenager then.

Oh yeah, I had no business talking about any of it when I started.

Well, I suppose we all have as much business or as little business as we need to have or as we want to have. I mean, there's always relevance. My boy, he's 15, said last night, can you ask him straight away? He said, can you ask him, For those of us who've never had a partner, what do we look for in a partner?

You just need to get some experience under your belt. I think getting a partner, we learn so much about what we can't put up with by the people that we date and the people we have relationships with. And I write in the book, it takes a lot of living to know what you can't put up with in life. So doing some living, I think, would probably be the answer.

And of course, you are the dating coach. And now you're not so much the dating coach. you know, now that you're married, you'll end up being the marriage coach. You know, this is where you're going. You'll be the marriage coach. You know, you talk about love a lot more than just liking and dating, which I like that. You talk about, you know, it all starts with us. It all starts and ends with us, doesn't it? I mean, that's what life is, I suppose. I like this take on ourselves where you say you've got to learn to love yourself. You can like yourself later, but you can't really like yourself unless you love yourself. And I think a lot of us get it the wrong way around.

Yeah, I love that you picked up on that because I think that's one of the most important distinctions we can ever make when it comes to the deepest level of confidence. In the book, I talk about three levels of confidence, but the deepest one is core confidence. And that's predicated on the idea of having a great relationship with yourself. And when a lot of us think about that, we think of cliches like you have to love yourself. But I used to struggle with that advice because I said, what does that even mean? What does loving myself even look like? Especially British people are intensely uncomfortable with the idea of loving themselves. And I said, you know what? The problem is that we think we need to come up with some special reason to love ourselves, like convincing ourselves of how great we are. But that's not it. That, as you said, liking yourself can come later. Loving yourself starts today because it's a verb. It's an approach. I have to love myself like it's my job. Yeah, because it is like I write about this. I, we all have a human to take care of. Yeah, I like that. The same way, if you're a parent, you have a child to take care of. And if you ask a parent, why do you love your child? They don't start reeling off their great characteristics. They look at you like you're a crazy person and say, what are you talking about? They're my child. I love them because they're mine.

And you talk about dogs as well, don't you?

And dogs, yeah. You see someone with the ugliest dog in the world. If you come up to them with a more handsome dog and say, do you want to swap for this one? They'll look at you like, what are you talking about? This is my dog. Yeah, so, We have to start loving ourselves in that same way where we say, I don't need a better reason to love myself, to take care of myself, to nurture myself than knowing that I'm my human. I am the human that belongs to me and it's my job to wake up today. And regardless of how many resentments I have towards myself, regardless of how many regrets I have, how many failures I have, it's my job to say, How do I, as the person charged with looking after this human, give this human a better life today?

Love it, love it, love it, love it. The problem is, the problem is we wake up often as a myriad of people, don't we? And we expect that from other people. We expect our kids to be in a bad mood one day or a good pupil the next day or a great friend the next day or a pain in the butt the next day. Our dogs are pretty reliable, but I think what freaks us out about ourselves is we can't even really get a handle on what kind of person we're gonna wake up with and that's us. So what do we do there?

That's a great point. I believe in the real work of whatever you want to call it, self-growth, self-development, healing, I really believe is learning to develop compassion for the parts of yourself that you've always hidden away or thought were unlovable. You know, for me, the biggest gift that my wife gave me was showing me that I was accepted and I was loved for the parts of myself that in previous relationships I'd sort of tucked away in a drawer and tried to, you know, constantly show up as the heroic version of myself. And, you know, really, in some ways, for the first time. And this wasn't any. The fault of anyone I dated previously. It was because I wasn't brave enough. But for the first time in this relationship, I started to be vulnerable in the ways that I maybe hadn't been in the past, to say things that I thought made me look insecure. I thought she was going to go, yuck, and. She didn't. She said, that's okay. That's not that one part of you isn't the truth of you. It's just one of the parts of you. And I think if we can do that for ourselves and say, this bad mood I'm in today, this person that I was this afternoon where I said that really stupid thing that I was embarrassed about, that's not the ultimate truth of me. It's just part of this composite of things that I am.

And when you talk to somebody you love about about each other when you exchange that kind of conversation. You know, what you say about Audrey is tantamount to just because you're allowing somebody to understand you more, that doesn't automatically mean they're gonna love you less.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

Which is what you feared before.

And sometimes we have evidence for it, you know, that's the scary part is we can, I was in a relationship where I did get, I revealed something that I was scared to reveal and I was told it was really unattractive. And it crushed me.

She said, that is so unattractive.

That's unattractive. It really crushed me because I thought, God, I'm never, the lesson I took in the moment was this, as a man, this being vulnerable stuff is nonsense. I am never doing that again. And it was the wrong lesson to learn, of course, but I really understand people who close down because at some point, someone has made them feel small, someone has made them feel like they are unlovable for something they've revealed. And a lot of people, that's happened from their parents or someone who raised them. So it's no wonder we go into life, you know, hiding away all of these parts of ourselves that we feel are shameful.

We said yesterday on the show, the catastrophe you fear has already happened. And that's why you fear it, 'cause you don't fear it for the first time. You fear it happening again. You just have forgotten that it happened.

In the past 'cause you're so broken from it.

That gave me goosebumps. Yeah. It's not mine. Yeah. Some really clever person wrote it down and said it. I can't even remember who.

I'll claim it as ours. I'll share it with the group for the date.

It wasn't mine.

But, Chris, I think that's. I love that you said that, because what I always try to tell people is when you get, you know, triggered or activated by something that happens to you in your love life, you know, a woman I coached, she said it was going great with a guy. Everything was good. And then he had a barbecue with his friends on a Saturday in the daytime, and he didn't invite her. And as a result of this, she got very cold with him. On the day she messaged him and said, why didn't you invite me? And then when he said, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize it would hurt you. Can I call you later? She said, don't bother. Now, for her, so much had been triggered. Her fear of abandonment. Her story was massive. And what I tried to tell people is the first step in changing our behaviors is actually giving yourself real compassion for the fact that it wasn't your fault. Like, it's not her fault that she got triggered by that. There's something historic going on there. Her nervous system got programmed for a fight or flight light response that in that moment came out. It's not like she chose. In that morning, she went, you know what? When I find out he's having a barbecue with his friends, what I'm gonna choose is misery and anxiety today. No, her body just went into a state giving ourselves compassion for that and saying this, I developed this as a survival response at some point in my life. It may not be serving me today, but at some point this was a survival mechanism. When we recognize that we can start treating ourselves more kindly. And I actually believe When we start to treat ourselves more kindly and not shame ourselves for that, we then have the ability to start choosing a different response.

Yeah, you lived in shame and guilt for a long time, didn't you? Shame tanning Guiltville, that's what you were.

For a while, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, I relate to all of those.

I think we all do. Of course we do. It's part of being human, that's the thing, isn't it? It's a double-edged sword. It's a fantastic thing to be human, but then you're left wondering what to do with that gift every day, and the meaning of life is to give life meaning, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What have you learned? What have you changed your mind on over the years from being 19 and starting all this to being happily married now? Just recently, congratulations by the way.

Thank you.

I'm getting married. What have you changed your mind on over the arc of your experience and what you've learned?

I don't know if I would call it changing my mind as much as having, you know, the experience of realizing that we tend to have very high standards about things that don't matter, especially growing up, you know, when we're in our 20s and so on. And some people never change out of that. But we have very high standards for things that don't matter, and we often have very, very, very low standards for things that do.

Interesting.

And because I come across people all the time who say, my problem is my standards are so high, so I never meet anybody. And I go, okay, tell me more about that. And I'll often find out that there is someone they've been seeing.

Yeah.

For the last two years of their life, who has treated them as utterly disposable, who has waltzed in and out of their life at their discretion, picked them up, put them down, doesn't treat them well, doesn't respect them. And I'll say, what is it about this person? And they'll describe, well, just, I don't know how I feel when I'm with them. And there's just something about them. And there's a, you know, and I find them so attractive. And, and so I'll go, so you have really high standards for how attractive someone is on the surface or for the giddy feelings that you want to feel. But you have absolutely no standards when it comes to how you're being treated by a person. So you can't keep going around saying you have really high standards.

Yeah.

This is what you mean is you're very, very particular in a very narrow area. Outside of that, apparently, anything goes.

Yeah.

And what I try and encourage people to do is not to suddenly stop caring about having chemistry, but to put it in its proper place. It's not something, the person you're dating now or in a relationship with now, they don't have to win the award for greatest chemistry you've ever had in your life. You need chemistry with them in some form. But guess what? You also need a bunch of other things that are massively important to an actual relationship, like reliability and loyalty and consistency and respect and being seen by that person. And these are the things that we have to start prioritizing if we want to be happier, is we have to start actually chasing the right things instead of the wrong things.

100%. I know you've had a lot of fun over the years and it all began with one particular night you're on stage and you were riffing away and being useful as you are to people who just needed to be in the right tribe at the right time. And then somebody shouted out, why are you single? And then you carried on. And then somebody else said it, and then in the end, it was like, with the whole Oddie's chanting it or something like that, and you thought, ah, I need to address this now.

Yeah, they wouldn't let me move on. I think someone had stood up and said, talked about how hard she was finding it being single, and I kind of said, hey, me too. It's tough, and it is tough. It's, you know, I think we underplay how tough it is because we don't want to seem desperate. We don't want to seem, like we've not got it together in life. We emphasize the importance of our careers and how well we've done and how it's all going great. But we universally, we want to find love. It's what unites all of us. And when we want something deeply and we haven't found it, it is a scary thing.

Yeah.

And that's where so many people are. I was in a place at one point where I was like, I don't. I don't know if I ever meet my per, you know, am I gonna meet my person? I don't know.

Did you feel like you may you sort of had to, because you're the guy.

I had to resist the temptation to jump into a relationship just for the label of being in a relationship so that people would stop asking.

Well done for not doing that, by the way.

Well, it's tough.

Yeah, it's tough. And it's not difficult to do that, is it? It is easy to find somebody who's okay-ish for you or you are for them. And it will probably, it might probably, you know, it could be all right. It actually might end up being amazing, but you didn't do it.

And the pressure was on. The pressure has always been on. Always. I mean, every journalist I've ever talked to has asked me, you know, why aren't you in a relationship? And I kind of, I often resented the question, partly because, you know, I was on my own journey to trying to find someone, and the last thing you want is someone shining a light on that while you're still figuring it out.

It's like financial advisors who are skint. Well, and there are plenty of them.

It's, for me, it was, I, success never was about Being in a relationship. And I say this in the book. The last thing I'm gonna do now is come along and say you should listen to me because I'm a married person.

Yeah.

Raise the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails.

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over.

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There are plenty of people who got divorced who you should listen to.

Yeah.

Because they actually were brave enough to get out of a relationship that wasn't serving them.

Well, any experience is worth sharing to or listening if you may be heading towards that similar experience.

100% and there's a lot of wisdom we get from living. So, you know, I never judged anyone on their success based on whether they were in a relationship or not. For me it was, are you happy? Have you found a sense of peace in your life? And that's what I was looking for in mine. And by the way, I struggled with that too. You know, I was constantly trying to figure out you know, why am I struggling to feel satisfied in this area of my life? Why do I feel like I'm like so many people constantly oscillating between people that maybe are exciting, but I left, I leave worse off and they're unreliable or they're not available. And then people who are lovely to me and I don't feel what I think I'm supposed to feel. Yeah. And then doing that figure of eight between those two positions constantly getting hurt by exciting person, doubting whether the person who's being good to you is the right person and never feeling satisfied. I wrote an entire chapter on the book called Never Satisfied to address that very issue of how can we start to not just find a relationship? Because finding a relationship and then questioning it all the time is also miserable. How do we start to actually find peace in this area?

Well, you're not questioning the relationship, you're questioning yourself because you made the decision to be in the relationship and that's the conflict, isn't it? That's why it's annoying because it's all projection. And if you pursue something for long enough, then you get it. It's the when if, I'll be happy when, or when, and if this happens, then therefore I'll be happy. I know you did a lot of chasing when you were younger to look after your family, you know, and you thought, that'll bring me success, that'll bring me peace. I talked earlier on the show about you coming on and about confidence and about the fact that I'm two decades older than you. And obviously I see all this differently now, 'cause I would be 'cause I'm further downstream and you're upstream. But there's always upstream from upstream. You can keep on going, can't you? And a lot of people do that now. A lot of people who I know who come on the show and authors, they go, yeah, well, I thought this, but then if I go upstream, and I go, no, but there's always upstream. You need to go to the source, but you don't have to go to the source. But you can't keep saying upstream. You've got to go to the source because that's where that heads. If the salmon swims up river, it gets to where it, from whence it came. But you don't need to go all the way back there.

It's quite interesting staying in the flow of things. What's been for you, what's been a realization you've had in this stage of life that you feel is you didn't have 10 or 20 years ago?

Well, your book made me think of it, because you talk about confidence, you know, and I thought you might say to me, because I always sort of gameplay the interviews, and I thought if we start talking about confidence, you might say to me, how do you fit, you come across as a very confident person, and I know you talk about yourself as an introvert. I know a lot of us that stand behind microphones or on stages claim to be introverts, and I'm with you, and he thinks it's hilarious. this one over here.

You don't believe him when he says he's an introvert.

No, because he's the biggest extrovert in the world. And, and we've taken a vote on this, and I'm right, and he's wrong. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. But we, you know, we talk about these various things, and you talk about confidence. Right. And I think, well, I'm not confident. So I'm now imagining conversation we're having last night. And I thought, well, if you're not coming, what are you? Because I don't feel confident, but I feel more peaceful. than anything else. And I think if you're peaceful, then you don't have to be confident, because confidence is a, a, a tool that you can use. It's also a skill that you can gain. It's to do with experience and wisdom. I get all that. And it's an energy. Confidence is also an energy because everything is an energy. But I think if you're at peace, and by the way, this is not a judgment on anybody, it's just an observation, I think, and it could be wrong, even to do with myself. When I'm at peace, that's the best I can be because it doesn't even require confidence. When you're not hungry, you don't need food. Do you know what I mean? When you're fit, you don't need to go to the gym. There will be another time when you do. But when I'm peaceful, everything is cool. That's my answer.

It's a beautiful answer. I love that answer.

I think that's where we all end up.

I love that answer. It's funny. I used to, I've been talking about confidence for years and years in one form or another. The reason in the book I talk about there being three levels is exactly to address the kind of conundrum you just laid out, which is, well, there does seem to be very different definitions of what confidence is. So for me, the three levels are the surface, which is all of that ability to project and to talk and to the way you move and act and so on. It's what the other world sees. The front. The front. And that's the surface. A worthwhile skill set to learn, but certainly not an indicator of how you feel on the inside. Then there's the identity level, which is the middle level. And that relates to the kind of sources of confidence in our life. So for some people, it's their home that they've paid off. For other people, it's their job that they're really good at. For other people, it's that they know three languages. We all have these things that give us a sense of competence and a feeling of identity. Now, the problem is all of those are vulnerable because if one of them goes wrong, if you lose the relationship that gives you your confidence or the job, you- COVID.

Right.

You lose a sense of identity and validation and what gives you the sense that I am me and I am important and significant and worthwhile.

You're my now.

Right, exactly. And that's where the final level comes in. And again, it's not that the identity level is wrong, it's worth doing, it's worth diversifying on that level so you're not over invested in any one area.

It's very interactive, isn't it?

100%, and a lot of problems come about when our entire identity level is made up of one thing. Like, all my confidence comes from my marriage or all my confidence comes from my work. that leaves us intensely vulnerable to changes in that area. So I encourage diversification. But the final level, the deepest level is the core. And that's what we were just talking about as being the relationship you have with yourself. And to me, that the piece you're talking about, that's where it comes from. Because the ultimate confidence is, is the, you can almost, like you say, remove the word confidence and just say it's acceptance. It's acceptance of who I am. It's surrender to my circumstances. to the way life is in my world today, to what's happened already that I can't change. You can still build self-esteem by doing hard things, and I encourage that with everybody, but self-esteem is not the same as self-acceptance. Self-esteem is doing hard things and the feeling of pride and belief that comes from that. But you don't even need self-esteem to have self-acceptance today. And self-acceptance can take you to a very peaceful place.

Yeah, I love all that. And Shane Parish Knowledge Project, He says the best way to set up every day is to play life on easy mode. So you can set the agenda of doing hard things, but you can play them or organize for them or strategize for them on easy mode. You don't have to make it hard. So you can sign up for a marathon, but then you look at your 17 week training plan and it's not that difficult. You know, and once it, you know, if it gets hard, you can walk, run, you can Jeff, you can make things easier.

That's lovely. I love your show. You know how I don't know if you're so close to it at this point that you're... It's hard for you to get this perspective, but I've done shows all over the world and there are... It is unbelievably rare to have a show like this that talks about these things on morning radio. I don't think I've ever seen it in the morning.

I don't think there is one. Thank God they let us do it.

Hats off to you.

I know it's beautiful that you say it. Thank you so much. Vassos, off you go.

I've got loads and loads.

I didn't want to let him in, I've got to be honest.

But he's got my phone. Most urgently, how did you get Drew Barrymore to get your front cover quote?

What's so funny is we connected a little while back and it was lovely to know that she had seen my videos and followed what I'd done. I did her show, like, two weeks ago in New York, and we were supposed to just have me on the show. And when she realized Audrey, my wife, was there, she ended up pulling Audrey onto the couch as well. And Audrey ended up making Drew cry on the show, which is amazing. So, no, it's been amazing to have lovely people support one another.

We came up with your two next books on the show earlier on. Yeah, so I heard this great comment there last week about too many self-development books, not yours, but too many sort of preach to the choir, knowing that the choir are gonna buy them. It's just the next book in the series of company, do you know what I mean?

That's so true.

So they become book addicts and they read about self-development, but they don't do anything about it. So they come, book junkies. And they said that if women really want to learn about men, they should read a self-development book aimed at men. And if men want to really learn about women, then they should read a book aimed at women. And I think, what about the Men's Book for Women and the Women's Book for Men? Could you do those for us, please?

Oh, God. I see. I'm increasingly, I'm less interested in doing anything that's really about either sex.

Right.

I find myself, you know, this book in particular, I'm really proud of it because it has this broad appeal. You know, we have such a large gay following, we have such a large male following at this stage, such large female. It's like, It really has appealed to everyone at this level. It's become very universal. But I do, I would love for everyone to want, to be more interested in actually learning about the other sex. Like, I feel like there's not enough of that.

Okay, okay. Speaking to a gay man, so my friend and colleague is a very gay man, right? So I walk in yesterday and I'm brandishing the Bible, he said, Can I have that? Right, so he picks it up and he immediately looks at the contents page and he immediately turns to the red flag chapter, right? And I said, what? He said, I just need to read this. And then he's just, you know, we had a, we had to have it, we were having a meeting. He said, it won't be a minute. And he started reading it in front of me, right? I've got like half an hour for this meeting. And he's reading a book and he goes, oh God, oh no, oh that's what I thought. And that's all I mean. And he immediately turns to the red flags chapter. So this is, This speaks to all sexes, you know, all sexuality, all persuasion straight away. And then he said, I said, what's going on? And he said, oh, I've started reading the red flag. I said, no, I've been sitting here for 15 minutes waiting for our meeting. And then he said, well, the first half of the red flag chapter, I'm thinking, oh yeah, 'cause I've been out with that guy and that's it. Then the second half for the chapter was worse for him 'cause he was the waiver of the red flags for the second bit. 'Cause he was looking for red flags from other people, but then he suddenly realized halfway through, he's a red flag to other But, you know, he's at the other end of it. And I suppose that comes with the territory.

Yeah, I always say red flags are a dangerous thing because we live in a world where everything's become a red flag to people. We have to be careful because if we're not careful, we'll rule ourselves out of the dating market. Because I've been guilty of a bunch of red flags and so have most people. So again, compassion for ourselves, compassion for other people is really important. the reason I wrote this chapter was because I said, you know what? What if I was trying to get rid of all of these superfluous red flags and start to say, what are the ones that actually matter? What are the ones that if you ignore these, it's genuinely gonna have a, it's gonna make your happiness almost impossible with this person. What are those? And so, you know, the two of them that I wrote in that chapter the inability to say sorry and another one which was not keeping promises. And neither of those things as a one-off are necessarily the end of the world. We've all broken a promise, forgot to do something we said we would do. We've all had an argument where we found it hard to say sorry in that argument. But as a chronic condition of someone who who isn't good for their word.

Yeah.

And someone who can't say sorry.

Yeah.

Those two on their own are quite potent red flags. And everyone can probably recall a relationship with someone where. Yeah, that made their lives miserable with that person. But together.

Yeah.

They become what I think of as a kind of dark pairing.

Yeah.

Because if you have someone who can't keep their promises, but then when they don't keep their promise, they can't even be accountable for it. They can't say sorry.

Yeah.

That's a really potent.

Well, talk about lies. Don't you in the book and talk is cheap and the liars have their big issue and they're so unaware of it, which is a favor to the rest of us, is they just can't ally their actions with their words. Because your actions betray, it's your actions that betray the lies, not the lies that betray the actions. Because it's fire their actions that get found out. Because you can't lie your actions, but.

You can lie the, well you sort of can lie your actions, but you run out of road in the end. Yeah, people, there are some very, very.

Prolific liars who can do it for a time. Yeah. It doesn't mean they're any good at it, though, does it? Just because they can do it for longer.

No, the dangerous ones are the ones who are very good at it. And there are some of those. There are the truly both pathological liars and people who are able to construct an entire world that you come to see is not real. Those are more rare. The thing I talk about in the book that is relevant to everybody is the difference between liars and avoiders.

Yes.

Because avoiders are much more common than liars. An avoider is just relying on you. For example, if you're dating someone and you want to be exclusive, but you're afraid to bring it up because you don't want to scare them away, you don't want to come on too strong. So you're having a lovely time with them, but you're never bringing up the fact that, you know, hey, just while we're at it, are we just dating each other? Are we exclusive? An avoider is relying on you being afraid of having that conversation because they're not going to lie to you and say, I'm not with anyone else, but they're never gonna talk about it as long as you don't. And so what I say is, the most dangerous thing about an avoider is that in order for someone to be an avoider, they need another avoider. They need someone unwilling to have the hard conversation. And that makes us now complicit in the theft of our own future, because we're not having the hard conversation, 'cause we don't wanna scare them away. But then a year later, we find out we have been in very different places all along, and I never knew it because I enabled this avoiding. So it doesn't excuse their avoiding, but we have to start taking accountability for the conversations that we're afraid to have. Our life gets better in direct proportion to the number of challenging conversations we're willing to have in life.

Thank you. What do they say? The hard way is hard, but the easy way is harder. In the end. In the end. We're out of time, kiddo. That's great, Matthew.

Thanks for having me. I really loved it. For anyone who wants the book, www.lovelifobook.com, we have a whole site with some bonuses. You got an audio going? Yeah, the audio is doing really well. People enjoy it's narrated by me, so they enjoy, you know, a lot of people who have followed me for a long time like the fact that I read the book. And it's doing really well. And I, you know, I just, I know, I know I've worked with people for 17 years in this area. I know how hard it is for people to be single, to want love, to feel like the loneliness they feel or the fear they feel at not having found someone, especially if they want a family and they don't feel like it's happening on that timeline. That pain is like a chronic condition. And this book isn't just about how to find your person faster, which it will help you with, it's also about how to deal with some of the challenging emotions that we experience along the way to finding love.

Don't put undue pressure on yourself. That's the thing, isn't it? And time is the biggest of all pressures. You often anyway. Great to meet you, man.

Thanks for having me.

Super cool. Well done. Matthew Hussey, New York Times bestselling author, love life, freshly newly married. Yes. Well done, Audrey. Congratulations.

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This is going to be something I remember, and that's a really lovely thing. I don't think I was able to do that in the past.

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Don't you agree that everybody needs someone when they feel alone?

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