Think It’s Love? 5 Signs It’s Obsession (And It’ll Never Last)

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Guys, I am so excited for you to listen to this episode. We talk about obsession in love. We talk about the negative effects it has on our lives. We talk about why it happens to us, the kinds of people it happens with, and why it happens with those particular people. We talk about a word that some of you know but will be new to many of you, called limerence, and how it shows up in our lives and how it might be affecting you without you even knowing it right now. This is, I think, one of the most fascinating episodes we've done in a long time, and I'm really, really excited to hear what you think of it. Don't forget to email us your thoughts as you go through the episode podcasty.com now. Enjoy the episod.

Why is it there are certain people who seem to get so under our skin that we cannot let them go?

There are different kinds of feelings that we have towards people. There's a kind of basic attraction that you might feel for someone who you think is physically attractive. There's the kind of feelings you might have to some towards someone you admire. But there's a point at which physical attraction and admiration turn into something else. And it's at the root of what we want to talk about in today's episode, which is this word that some people have heard about and delved deep into and other people have never heard of, but most people listening to this have probably experienced. And that is limerence. Limerence is it? It was a word coined by Dorothy Ten of back in the 70s, I think, for the intense feelings of what we traditionally think of being in love with somebody. But she really kind of broke it down and studied it and turned it into a kind of a science, a psychological idea with components to it, things that create limerence. And what limerence really, when it's turned into its full potentiality, turns into a kind of obsession towards someone. And we can talk about this and how it happens, but It's a very specific way of looking at the kind of obsession that we feel towards someone. It's beyond just, I have a crush on that person. It's beyond. I'm attracted to that person. It's not the same as I. I love that person. And it's differentiated from sexual attraction towards someone. It is something that can involve love in the traditional sense. It can involve sexual attraction, but it doesn't actually require either of those things to exist. It is something altogether separate. And that's what I want to talk about today in relation to the feelings people have about someone they just cannot get over.

And so will it be someone you know and have some kind of established relationship with already? Or can you have, like, not even spoken to them? Because this makes me think of school. This makes me think of being a teenager. Like, I associate this with certain crushes I had at school of someone maybe who you waited for, like one moment at the lunch queue where you had one word with them, one look, and you went home and invented a whole story and imagined, you know, them being your girlfriend and you would like, pine and that person, you maybe didn't know you existed. But in your head it's like there was that thing, that moment that happened. And I feel like. Don't you feel like that's. As you associate that with that teenage moment of kind of obsessing over someone?

What you just described is kind of. Those are classic symptoms of limerence. And limerence is something that is prevalent in teenagers, people in their 20s, but it's not limited to people in those age groups. It can be found. You know, some of the really harrowing stories of people we've dealt with deal with people who could be seen to be limerential in their 50s and 60s, and as a result get massively taken advantage of or get extraordinarily heartbroken, or in some really insidious cases, get conned by somebody because someone is leveraging that limerence. But it is something that gets felt a lot in teenagers. I think that's why a lot of people can think back to a situation like this from school. But that idea of what you just said is very, very important. That idea of taking something that might be in very, very small in someone's behavior and taking it to mean something is very important. That's a huge part of it. That there is a. You need to be able to perceive events whether or not they really occurred. We perceive them to have occurred. And if those events in some way represent some form of imagined reciprocation that's like lighting the fuse for like full actualized limerence. It's not the only component, but a huge component of limerence is that idea that someone did something. I can interpret their moves, something they said, a look they gave, a gesture, anything. Sometimes even silence. Sometimes for people. You know, Dorothy 10 off, I have her book here, Love and Limerence, which I've been going through for the purposes of this episode. But what she talks about is that even someone's silence can be read as reciprocation in some form, as potential in some form. How they must have some feelings towards me or they wouldn't be going so far out of their way to avoid me. Or they go quiet every time they're around me. That must mean they're nervous around me too.

Is it limerence if you, you know, if you create a story in your head about why somebody isn't ready for a commitment or is being hot and cold. Let's say you go, you're dating someone and they kind of come in and out of your life and you sort of say to yourself, well, we have such a great time together. The reason they're like that is because they are avoidant. They have all these issues and I really understand them and kind of you build that story in your head of having that connection that is actually founded on very little other than just your own, you know, your own desire for it to be true. I suppose.

Yes, that's limerence. Yes, because there's a couple of essential ingredients there. So for limerence to occur, you need both hope and uncertainty. So the hope is the idea that something really could happen. The thing 10 off talks about is the idea that it limerence is always firmly rooted in reality, even if that reality is delusional. It's not a fantasy. It's not simply like some idea of what we. It's like somewhere in our mind, the idea is that it could happen. So this person either is showing me signs of reciprocation, or I believe there's a world where they could, or they might, they may in the future.

So I'm spinning the reality to make it fit the narrative I want it to fit.

Yes, I'm interpreting events in a way that allows for the possibility that something could happen between me and this person. She, by the way, she even talks about it in terms of like, there's a story she tells of a young girl, teenager. I think she's a teenager at the time when Paul McCartney, I suppose, was also a teenager. Probably, you know, 18, 19, whatever. I don't know. Or maybe it was. No, it wouldn't. She would have been in her twenties, so it was like maybe she was in her twenties, but she was obsessed with Paul McCartney and it was extremely limerent towards Paul McCartney, of course, had never met Paul McCartney, but she had concocted this entire story in her mind that of a scenario where it could happen that she could run into Paul McCartney and if she did this, he actually might really like her because of these reasons and he might invite her into his world and like. So in her mind, what we would call a fantasy, which in a sense was a fantasy, but it wasn't the way 10 off talks about it is. It wasn't strictly impossible.

Right?

It was something is strictly impossible.

So then you could say, you could say that about anything. Right?

And I suppose that's where limerence does in many cases become delusional. It's not, we're not, it's not to say that from the outside you would look at it and go, there's, that's a rational thought. No, it can be based in entirely irrational thought. It can be a form of madness. But in our minds it doesn't just live in the world of fantasy. It's something that could happen, even if extremely unlikely. And of course there's a spectrum. There's the Paul McCartney story all the way to someone you're in a class with every day who actually really is reciprocating. But hope is one thing we need. The other thing we need is uncertainty. And uncertainty is something that threatens reciprocation. So that might take the form of, you just did something last week that made me think you were into me and now this week you're kind of being cold towards me. And so now that idea of reciprocation is threatened because you're in my mind. It's like, I think I was right when I interpreted that action by you last week to mean that you're into me, but. But now you're doing something that makes me question that. And so now you have the hope and the uncertainty. Right? There's a, you know, there was a question we had recently from a woman who, I spoke about it in a video a week or two ago about, you know, she kept seeing a guy who was visiting his parent in the hospital bed opposite her. And she could, could swear like every time she looked away, he, this son who was visiting his sick parent was looking over at her and she was like, I, I don't want to, you know, how do I say something? I don't want to come across wrong and I don't want to kind of embarrass myself, but I should I try something? And so in, you know, this may not be limerence right now, but it has like the early kind of. It has that early feeling of something that could become limerent because there is both hope and uncertainty. I think he's looking at me. That's the reciprocation. I don't know for sure that he's looking at me. That's the uncertainty. Now the uncertainty can also come from external circumstances. So remember, uncertainty is the reciprocation being threatened in some way. Well, in your example, Audrey, reciprocation is threatened by the fact that they are avoidant and they have all these avoidance issues and for whatever reason they struggle to get close to people. But you know, I know if I could just get them over that, things could be amazing between us. In some cases, the, the external barrier could be geography. You know, they, they want to leave and travel the world or they, they're moving to another city and if it weren't for that, we would be perfect for each other. And these things are part of the Romeo and Juliet effect. Essentially. Romeo and Juliet had feelings for each other that were obvious. The threat to reciprocation came from the outside, came from their two houses not wanting them to be together. But either way there has to be some uncertainty from either, from within, from without.

That sounds like why gambling is addictive. Hope and uncertainty. It's like you don't know if it's going to go in your favor, but there's always the hope you're going to hit the jackpot. There's always the hope you're going to suddenly have the biggest win of your life.

There's some really interesting stuff around limerence and anxious attachment and emotional wounding and kind of the correlation, you know, I know that obviously, is it 10 of her name. She says that it's not mutually exclusive to people with childhood trauma and emotional wounding. But if you are somebody who is anxiously attached, you are actually quite prone to limerence because you have almost. And you're quite prone to the kind of anxious avoidant trap, which can become a very sort of like fulfilling limerence relationship.

Could you explain that to people? The anxious avoidant trap?

Yeah, of course. Well, just, you know, anxious people and avoidant people being unconsciously drawn to each other because, you know, an anxious person will almost be repeating a pattern. So anxious, anxious attachment can come from many places, but oftentimes it comes from inconsistent caregiving in childhood. And so having to earn love and feeling like love is intermittently given and the kind of dopamine reinforcement that comes with that. And if you then have an anxious partner who sometimes gives you love, sometimes gives you attention, sometime gives you hope that they're going to be, you know, showing up for you and it's going to be great, and then pulls that away and suddenly you're kind of left out in the cold again. That kind of. That's the sort of anxious avoidance cycle that can happen. And the avoidant actually ends up feeling suffocated by the anxious person who is trying to get more from the avoidant. Because that inconsistency is kind of, you know, simultaneously driving them crazy. But also it's what we know. Right. And I speak from experience as somebody who absolutely like, relates to anxious attachment. Anxious avoidant attachment, but anxious attachment for sure. And yeah, I think that you end up attracting each other in that way. But it's just interesting in the, in the kind of context I think of, of limerence and this idea that when you are anxiously attached, you can suffer with low self worth. And I think that it can make you more vulnerable to limerins because you're almost. There can be a sense of emptiness inside of you that you're looking to fill by a partner and the partner that gives you to your point. Hope and uncertainty at the same time is almost that perfect salt and sweet bliss point that you keep going back for because it kind of feeds that side of you and something within you.

Well, the interesting thing is the pattern of the hope and uncertainty can both replicate a dynamic that is very familiar to a person, to the person you're describing, but also promises closure. You know, there's the. It triggers the unmet need for safety.

That's so true. Yeah.

In that person. And when someone, when, when one goes through life with a kind of longing and Dorothy Tenoff talks about that you can. Someone can be limerent or in a state of limerence that is just a state of longing for love.

I relate to that. Yeah, I definitely relate to that.

Yeah, for sure. But it doesn't, it hasn't attached to anyone yet. And in that stage, it can be directed at two or more what she calls limerent objects, the people that you are limerent towards. At that point, it's not about one person, but what happens is there's this sort of explosive moment where someone does reciprocate in a certain way. And all of a sudden you become laser focused on that one person and one of the defining kind of characteristics of limerence is, is you are limerent to the exclusion of everybody else. It doesn't leave room for anybody else. You become fixated on this one person. But in the early stages it can be directed at multiple people. It's like there are different horses in the race.

Yeah.

And your longing for love is being directed in multiple directions. But it's like there's a moment where it's like, yeah, fusion. Where all of a sudden someone shows you a level of interest or someone shows you some hope that might represent safety. And if in the case you're talking about Audrey, someone who's anxiously attached sees the potential for the ultimate safety they've always been looking for, plus the uncertainty because they don't have it yet. But it looks like maybe it could be possible here. This euphoric place that they've always wanted to arrive at, this safe place that they've always wanted to arrive at seems possible here. All of a sudden that true limerence begins and it's all they can think about.

Well, I, I have known people throughout the years. Some people are very susceptible to crushes and you see them like you say at the beginning, ping ponging between like, oh, that person's that person. But I wonder if someone could ask if. Yeah, but Matt, I got obsessed with this person because I got laser focused on them because they were the first person I got excited about in years or ages. So like I had met people I didn't really connect with and this person, like they were the person. So they might say like, is that limerence then? Or is that just me getting excited about someone and hopeful because oh my God, this person ticks so many of my boxes.

I think 10 off would argue there that there are multiple things going on. There's what you have even a baseline in that is a person who. Longing for love and arguably, and I suppose by definition actually longing for the feeling of being in love. Because if they weren't so hung up on the feeling of being in love, they might have got with and settled for one of those people that came before. You know what I mean? Like, if I, if I wasn't so interested in the feeling of being in love, I might have just decided to choose one of those people who's been attracted to me in the past, who was good enough and had good qualities and made a relationship out of that. Instead what I've done is I've. I've decided that there's a certain way I need to feel and until I feel that I am not interested in having a relationship. So that creates a kind of receptivity to that feeling. And then there's a story, there's a script there which is, I never meet anyone who evokes this feeling in me. So of course, when someone comes along and does evoke that feeling immediately, they are imbued with this extraordinary significance that is so interesting, powerful being in our lives. If you have always wanted to come and join me on my live retreat, you have two ways that you can do it. You can either come and be with me in Miami for the weekend on the 18th and 19th of October, or you can take the entire retreat from home virtually now. Either way, we have a special deal on right now where you can put down $195 and that is your deposit to reserve your seat. All that is required today is $195 if you get a virtual ticket. That's your entire payment. If you decide to come and join me in the room that acts as your deposit. And the great news is that during this 48 hour period, we have deep discounts on the in the room tickets for Miami. We have $500 off our VIP ticketing, $100 off our general. You should go check it out@retreat access.com because those are only available for the next 48 hours. I am also gifting my impact program. This is my ultimate people skills public speaking personal impact program. That is a $300 program. It's not even for sale right now. I'm gifting it for free to anyone who comes to join me in Miami. We also have payment plans for anyone who needs help. If you need to spread your payments, we have that option available. But all of this is only available for the next 48 hours until midnight this Friday, 25th July. Come and join me in Miami. Or at the very least, watch it from home. This is the ultimate program for anyone looking to build their core confidence, trust, change their relationship with themselves and truly unlock what is possible for them in their life.

Do you guys relate to this? I relate a lot to this.

I have related to. I've related to idealizing someone like in. You know what, this is a funny thing. I was thinking about this. I used to have a terrible habit of doing this after a breakup with someone. Almost like idealizing the person after the relationship and thinking about them and. Or I don't, you know, I don't know if it was. Yeah, maybe it was this kind of. It was this kind of pining of like, you know, maybe when I was younger. If someone broke up with me, it might instinctively bring out all this, like, I don't know, insecurity and need. And maybe they were perfect and, and thinking about them and maybe they would see me as this and change their mind. And almost that was where more of my obsessive thinking used to go.

But if you.

And I knew it was unhealthy, but it became this like imagining scenarios and things where it would work.

But that has all the same components, right? It's all the same components. They just happen to be taking place. That threat to reciprocity took place when someone decided they didn't want to be with you or when the breakup happened. And then the, you know, idea of the potential of the relationship. What could be the, the, you know, emphasizing of that person's amazing qualities, the ignoring of their negative qualities. By the way, another key, key, key sign of limerence is, you know, is that it's what's called crystallization, not idealization. Crystallization. The difference being that with idealization it's like we're, we're just putting someone in this preformed idea of this amazing person we're looking for and we're making them fit that mold. Crystallization is the idea that your emphasizing the best qualities of someone to the extreme. While you may even see their negative qualities, it's not necessarily that you don't see them. You just don't care. You don't mind them, you've decided they don't matter. And, and so that's like that process of, again, she talks about it as rooted in reality. You're not just imagining this person is amazing when they're not. You are taking whatever qualities they have that could be amplified and amplifying them to the nth degree and deciding not to care about the bad qualities. Which is why friends and family can look at what we're doing and go, what on earth, earth is this person on? Like, how can they see this person so positively? How can they not see that they're an. How can they not see that? And it, it is because of that overemphasize, overemphasizing of good qualities and ignoring of the bad, the crystallization.

And I remember Guy Winch would talk about that, who's an expert on breakups and heartbreak and, and only looking back now, you know, do I look with hindsight and go, no, I wouldn't want to be with that person like that. Loads of bad qualities. But I do remember at the time you exaggerate in your head, they were so smart they were so funny. They were so. But it's. It's weird looking back in the past and seeing yourself as a different person. Like, what drug was I on that I thought that person was going to be the one that would make me that happy?

Well, and that's why. And I want to. I want to. I want to come back to that in a moment, but I just want to return to the point you made about the person who says, I never feel this way, and that's why I can't get over them. I think there's a subtle sort of mind trick happening there. That again, the components necessary for that kind of obsession to occur are hope and uncertainty. And when someone is telling you a story that involves pain about how they haven't felt this way in ages, it's usually because what they have an abundance of is uncertainty. It's not because the relationship's going so well. It's because this person is blowing hot and cold. They're not texting them back. They don't want a real relationship. They just want to hook up, or they're not noticing them at all. After the first date, they said they had an amazing time and now they're not hearing from them again. So it's. It's like we're describing a feeling we have towards someone that exists because it's not going well or because there's uncertainty about things.

You're not getting straightforward communication.

Right. In a relationship that was going well, you would be far less likely to be having these feelings. You may have feelings of being in love with someone, but that at a certain point in a relationship that gives way to this genuine connection you have with a person, there's no longer that heightened, anxious feeling of needing to, like, try to secure it. Unless you're in a relationship where you never get to feel secure or you never allow yourself to feel secure, but at a certain point, limerence or it goes away. It doesn't. In healthy relationships, limerence cannot survive. So it's. There's something interesting about that idea of that person who says, oh, just my luck. I, you know, I never meet anyone I like. And then I meet someone I really like and can't stop thinking about.

And I'll say this dream guy at work, but he's married, but he's the best guy.

And what people miss is, is that the reason you feel so strongly is a product of the fact that you have admiration, physical attraction, some hope, but massive uncertainty. That is why you feel so strongly.

It's the gambling addiction.

So interesting do you think that.

I know it's a dreaded term, but the phenomenon of, like, work wives and work husbands, you know, someone you kind of will they, won't they? Flirty people have these kind of like, fantasy, you know, there might be a little fancy in their head of like, could it happen? Do you think that's just like people playing in an idea, like idealized fantasy? Or do you think that is what is a limerence example? Or does it depend on the level, your fixation?

Yeah, it's. You know, I wrote down a few things here because I think it's important to kind of put some definition around the feeling of limerence.

So how do you tell the difference? It's not just like a crush.

Yeah, that was my question. Like, what are the signs? It's not a crush.

So obsessive thoughts, like, constant, constant intrusive thinking. Okay, that's number one. You can have a crush on someone. That means when you see them, you're like, you know, a bit. You get butterflies and you're a bit like, oh, I find it hard to talk to this person. That doesn't mean that the rest of your week, when you're not with them, you're having constant intrusive thoughts about that person that you do not feel in control of. So obsessive thoughts, the. That concept of crystallization of, you know, that complete and utter, like, you've turned this person into, you know, they're on this unbelievable pedestal, but you don't even necessarily know that you've put them on a. But you may know that you've put them on a pedestal, although it doesn't matter because you feel the feelings anyway, or you may not know you've put them on a pedestal. You may just think they are the greatest thing ever. But that idea of, like, I've truly, like, this person has a golden light around them. I can. I see them as this extraordinary person, regardless of whatever negative qualities they have. Emotional dependency on perceived reciprocation. Perceived reciprocation is the important word, the important phrase there. You have an emotional dependency on being able to sell yourself on the idea that they are reciprocating. And if they're not reciprocating or they go too long without reciprocation, you're tortured. You're tortured. You know, you may have feelings towards someone at work, but you may not be tortured at the idea that, like.

Yeah, because you've accepted it's never going to happen or something, or you're just not. You're not pursuing or Hoping.

Exactly. So there's this acute longing for reciprocation. The inability to react limerently to more than one person at a time. Again, ten of's words, not mine. But the inability to react limerantly to more than one person at a time.

So the inability to feel any which way about anyone else once you've got your sight set on something. So like it's like it doesn't matter who I meet, it's just this person now.

Exactly. And fleet she put these words kind of made me laugh. But fleeting relief from unrequited limerent passion by vivid imagination of action by the limerant object by the person you feel limerent towards. That means reciprocation.

So like a fantasy about them showing up at your door and going, they're.

Gonna show up in the rain. Oh my God.

Yeah. You can get some relief by imagine vividly imagining some form of action from them that could constitute reciprocation.

Do you know what this reminds me of? Baby reindeer.

There's a lot of baby reindeer in that.

There is very baby reindeer.

I'm interested you earlier we just skipped over your example, but you said you relate to limerence. What's your experience of it?

I think I just relate to this feeling of like setting my sights on someone and being like it's them for no kind of little to no reason. And this idea of like when I was younger I was used to be like, I'm just really picky. I just never like anyone. I'm just really picky. And then like the handful of people I did like, it was always this like very intense kind of thing that wasn't rooted in like a healthy, like two people meet, they like each other, there's no drama. It's like it was always this very like kind of dramatic thing. And I think I always. I think I really relate to the feeling of like being very attached to the story and the meaning of what something has. I even think I was limerent. This is hilarious. I think I was limerent about Britney Spears. Like I didn't fancy her.

I thought she was going to say me. Oh no. But like I didn't see that coming.

No, hear me out. I wasn't. And I don't know if this would pass as limerence because it wasn't like a romantic attraction. But when I was younger I was obsessed with Britney Spears. I mean like obsessed When I was 9, 10, 11, I would say about three years of my life and to the point where my parents got divorced and it was a very like, kind of acrimonious divorce, very painful. And I wrote to Britney Spears because I had those, like, fan. Like, this is so sad. There's like, fan, like, you know, like magazines, and there was like a kind of, like, mailing box where you could write a letter to Britney Spears because I'm old and there was no Internet. And I basically wrote to her, like, in French, like, this little letter about how my parents were getting divorced and how, like, it was.

Was this a French magazine?

It was French magazine.

That's cruel, isn't it? To put, like, an address for Britney Spears in a French.

Yeah, she's definitely gonna read these, like, definitely these ones in French of all.

Like, who's. Like, the idea that someone's receiving that mail and sorting French letters.

She's got the hundred thousand US One. She goes, you got any other. The French bag. Can you open that one up? Go on.

Pain. It was. But, yeah, no, I wrote to her and I. I used to think about, like, how, like, we would be friends and she would, like, make me feel better and, like, be my friend and, like, one day I would meet her and like. But I was very limerant over Britney Spears for, like, three years. And then I kind of got over her very quickly. I still feel very, as you know, I still feel very protective.

You've got a soft spot.

Yeah, I have a soft spot, but like, I. And I. I guess, like that pattern, you know, which was targeted at Britney Spears when I was nine or whatever, I definitely think I had it, like, in my life. And I think that, like, you know, I've always chalked it off as, like, passion and just being certain about my feelings and all of those things. But actually, I think a lot of it is rooted in this kind of searching for love and searching for connection and wanting to feel something and then almost just like, kind of, you know, like looking around for what could. What could make me feel that. So I really. I do really relate to. To this.

Well, I want to give a couple of interesting sort of ideas around limerence that I think sort of add to. To what is quite a fascinating concept. The first is that the ultimate kind of climax that is sought in limerence is not sexual union, but emotional commitment. Like, that is the thing that is the ultimate hill to climb is like. And actually, interestingly, sex needn't even be a part of it. There's always an element of sexual attraction involved.

So it wasn't limerence with Britney Spears.

It could have been a little bit. I mean, a lot of people felt Something for during that time.

I mean, I felt things. Maybe it wasn't limerence after all.

Yeah, I remember. Yeah, we all remember.

Every. Every 90s boy was limerent.

Yeah.

But it was more like, I think she's amazing, rather than like, I'm attracted.

Yeah, yeah. No, probably like for you, the ultimate climax was that she wrote you a letter.

Yeah.

Expressing that you. Your letter had spoken to her in a way nothing ever had before.

Whichever, she was gonna write a song about it.

And she realized that in you she saw herself and that she must. You needed to meet.

Amazing, right? You're pretty fulfilling my childhood dream there. Thank you.

You're the only person who understands Baby one more time the way she does.

But that. I think that's really interesting because it's not. It. There's. This is not some desire for like, you know, to get off or I just. I'll be fine once I've had sex with them. Or it's. There is this feeling of. And actually a lot of limerent stories, the case studies talk about almost sex being something that they don't think of in a, like a crude way with that person.

It's like sacredness.

There's a sacredness to it. Yeah. There's almost an untouchability to it in some ways. I don't. Almost like some people, like, I don't even like to imagine them like that.

Now. What I can relate to is when my biggest teenage crushes there was almost like, you have like, love fantasies.

Yes.

That's different to, like, I really fancy them. You have these, like, dreams of being in love with them.

And. And that's. And the. And the ultimate dream is emotional reciprocation on the part of that person. The other kills it. Right. Well, we'll come on to that because, yes, this is the. This is the other interesting experience is.

Like always when reciprocated, the feelings go away and I'm like, oh, this isn't actually as exciting.

Brittany had written back too soon. If she had just called you, then it could have blown the whole thing. No, there's something fascinating about that, that there's. There's two things that have the. That have the potential to kill limerence. One of them is too early, a declaration on our part of our feelings towards someone we're limerent towards. And the other is too early of a reciprocation on their part. Now, I. I assume that the declaration part is something to do with. If I declare too quickly how I feel, I get an answer too quickly. And if I get an answer too quickly, one of two things breaks a spell bit. Well, either very quickly you reject me outright and you kill any sense of hope. And limerence needs hope.

It is a fantasy.

Yes. Which in your head is in a fantasy because you haven't disconfirmed it. You know, like it's not your. You need the hope that something could happen. So the earlier you state what you're feeling, the sooner you may be outright rejected and there may be no more hope. And no hope kills limerence. The alternative thing that could happen is that you state your feelings and that person reciprocates. And that also has the potential to stop limerence in its tracks. Because if someone reciprocates that you don't have time that that cocktail of hope and uncertainty doesn't get to occur and you don't get to play out these ideas in your head of what could be and to ruminate and to think about this person non stop and to con. You're constantly cognitively investing in someone in, in a limerent situation. You don't get to put in all of that cognitive work. All of a sudden it's like goal achieved. This person likes me too. So now you're, you're just in something very real. And that doesn't, but here's the interesting part that doesn't mean nothing will happen. It doesn't mean that you won't even. You might actually go on to have a relationship with that person but it won't necessarily be a limerent dynamic.

So you can lose the limerence.

You can lose the limerence and find love, you know, but you maintaining the limerence requires this cocktail of things.

It's always actually being with someone is too much of a sobering experience to hold on to that.

Well, and, and, and let's not forget some people remain limerent in relationships especially when they never quite feel a sense of safety or security. They, you know, if they never. That many people have been in a relationship where they never quite felt they had the person, they always felt like that person. There was something they were worried. You don't love me as much as I love you. You, I feel like you're going to leave me at any moment. You could leave you, you could be out of the door. Like there's that feeling. And especially if you idolize someone, look up to them, you put them on a pedestal above yourself. You can spend an entire relationship trying to please someone, trying to make them love you, confirming that they do in fact love you. And no matter how many times they Confirm they love you. You still have all of that internal uncertainty, either because you don't feel good enough for the relationship or the person, or because you feel like there's an incongruence between what they're saying and how. What they're doing. And maybe you feel they hold all the power. So there's, there's situations in which someone can be in a relationship remain limerent. It's not limited to situations that are ultimately unrequited or where there's just a longing and nothing ever happens.

This is so interesting.

And one more thing is it doesn't require compatibility. This is one of the most important things, and it's one of the most important insights into why limerent situations make people so unhappy. You spoke about it earlier, Stephen, about the whole kind of like, what was I thinking when I look back at me thinking that that person was ever going to make me happy? One of the ways that we dodge a bullet when it comes to limerence is when someone we're limerent about completely rejects us and leaves us with no hope or breaks up with us. Because when that happens, we're spared an existence of trying to please and trying to be with someone we are completely incompatible with. But when someone actually does lead us on or give us hope or keep us in a cycle with them, we are liable to throw our entire lives away, or at the very least years of our lives away in service of a relationship that never has the potential to make us happy because of how incompatible we are with that person.

If you were in a relationship with somebody and you really loved them and then you broke up, let's say you, you know, some people in relationships for like, decades, right? And you loved them so much, and you were like, this is my person. Like, the way, you know, I feel about you, like, I will be like, I am so steadfast in the fact that, like, you're my person and I want to be with you forever, and then you break up with that person and, you know, you. People say, like, I will always love them. Is that limerence, that feeling of like, you have had a very beautiful and meaningful loving relationship with them, it didn't work out for whatever reason. And years later, you. You just, you're, like, loyal to that feeling of love that you felt for them?

I don't know that that is limerence. No, because you don't.

You might not have the hope.

Yeah, exactly. You, you, you may remain in some ways, you know, in love with that person, but you're not. You don't have this, this constant obsession with the idea of the relationship and you know, you're one day getting back together. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. You're. I think you, you live with this feeling of love for this person, but you're gradually able to make space for other feelings in life.

And that's like what grief is.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I would in some ways more akin maybe to grief than to limerence.

Well, tell us what you thought about this subject and if you want us to talk more about it. I personally think this is so unbelievably interesting.

I think it's really fascinating and I. Leave us a comment and let us know you know what your experience of this is. Email us Podcasty and Food for thought. The most dangerous limerent situation I posit is the one where you don't get a hard no. It. It's the one where no one ever really does reject you.

Yeah.

Because that's the one. You can. You can. Limerence can exist in forever unless you're the one to give yourself closure. Hey guys, I just want to take a moment to quickly tell you about something I use every single day of my life that if you have not got one yet, it is on my high, high, high recommendations list. It is the Big ass calendar. This is a year at a glance calendar. It's big. It goes on your wall. You can see your entire year in one place. Me and Audrey swear by buy it we it comes with sticky notes that you use to plan your trips and occasions and all sorts of things. It comes with a dry erase pen that you can use if you want to put things in quote pencil but rub them out. It is something that I make decisions using every day. If someone asks me to do something for any particular month of the year, I go to my big ass calendar and I make a decision using the calendar. You're always asking, asking me for things that I use in my everyday life. This is one of them. I love talking about this because I truly love the product. If you haven't got one, you can go to the big ass calendar.com and use my discount code love life to get 10 off everything in their store. Start with the Big Ass Calendar. It's a game changer. Once you've got it, you'll get it every year. The link again is the big ass calendar.com and and the discount code is Love Life. We are of course going to get to our Love Life line question with a featured caller. We have another segment, another edition of Steve Sleeves.

It's back, baby.

I mean it never left.

No. But it always feels like it could.

Right. Yeah. I'm a bit limbering towards Steve Sleeves. There's always the hope mixed with the uncertainty about what's going to happen. We have had some lovely comments on a recent episode, episode 305. Subtle flirting moves that actually work this. These were some of the comments on YouTube. Hi, Hussies. It's been a minute. I just wanted to notice David's lovely background. The curtains really enhance the tankless water heater. So the jig is up. David, you weren't. Apparently you weren't fooling anyone. No.

And I think part of that had to do with the fact that for the first part of that podcast, the curtains did have a bit of a gap in them.

Yeah. Otherwise they wouldn't know about the water heater.

Yeah.

I didn't even know about it. Yeah. I mean, that is it.

It's like you're sort of. You. You've got the air of a magician.

Yes.

Until the curtains part. And it's just a water heater.

Heater.

Glamorous corner of our design so far.

The guy in the boiler room in Spirited Away.

Yeah.

With all the hands.

Share a Sale says, I quite enjoyed Stock Talk Flirtation edition. Please play it again. So that's. That's one thumbs up for Steve sleeves.

We absolutely can.

And you guys were really good at that game. I was horrible at flirting. It's a miracle. I'm married.

Clearly you're very good at flirting.

Even when we played that game, I couldn't.

I'm not good at flirting with stock photos.

I'm just not good at flirting with stock photos.

I just think Steve's sleeves makes you nervous.

I think that's true.

It's a very intellectual game.

Ever since the submarine one, things have been really tense around it.

They have, yeah. They have. I wonder if there's. Because there was a. There was the example of how to flirt. If you happen upon a fellow kayaker.

Yes.

On a river. I would love to know if, you know, anyone has had the chance to use that yet. Is there anyone sort of listening to this in New York who just happened to be on a, like, little rowboat in Central Park?

We were on a kayak recently.

Oh, we were.

And I think I used it on you at the time as a callback.

You were very fast in that. Oh, no, we were in the same kayak.

Yeah.

You were fast on the paddle.

So you are good at flirting.

She's good at flirting.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I was just recycling.

If anyone's on a trip to Halong Bay in Vietnam. Great kayaking there. Maybe you're just sidling next to someone good.

Probably a few niche flirting scenarios. Destination Adam Christie says, I'm definitely going to try these with my wife. I really like that we should flirt more with our, with our significant others. Inane says, I love this trio. And Audrey is so comforting. The voice, the tone and the compassion she genuinely has when she speaks. And you two might just be my favorite, I don't know, in real life couple. You'll make great parents. Let's hope so. Also, you being so playfully fun, I think sets such a beautiful space for the baby to come.

That message is for me. That last bit. Got it.

Oh, she does say, that's for Steve. Yeah. Okay.

I'm creating a beautiful environment for this baby.

Well, we have a love life line to do.

Hell yeah.

Someone's waiting for their question to get answered.

So David, take it away.

Roll the voicemail.

Here's a question for you. Am I being too friendly? So for some context, I will talk to just about anybody. It's not something I've always been comfortable with, but that's over years I've developed that and that's fine. I feel like it's a very innocent, innocuous thing to do. And if nothing else, I think that it's important to be able to do it. So when I do have these conversations with people, it's usually they're very short lived, you know, short bursts. They're not someone I know. I'm not trying to hit on them. I'm not consciously trying to seduce them. I'm not wearing something provocative. Hell, I've got 10,000 other things on my mind and they are just a pinpoint in that day. But when I do do have some of the more awkward, really unsettling interactions from what started off as something quite innocuous, when I go to talk to friends about this, they'll just roll their eyes and just say, well, of course you did. Because you're the only person that we could possibly think of that gets into situations like this. So more resting bitch face for me.

Okay, so this is from our love life member Nanga. Nanga. I Look, if you're the kind of person that talks to people in all sorts. My mom's like this. I mean, she talks to everybody, you know, and that means that everybody thinks my mum is awesome and has great conversations with her, but she also gets talking to people that sometimes I'm like, mom, why are you telling them that? We don't know this person.

We went on holiday with our mums recently and they just make friends with everybody and they're like, oh, we were just speaking to the man behind the cashier at the shop and his daughter is coming into town and she, she's studying medicine and actually her husband lives in this little town that's. And we're like, what, how have you even acquired this information and that. And, and they've invited us for dinner tonight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they probably. And before long they know where we live, they know our street address. They know like it's, there's also.

Your mom is very proud of you. So she will very, she will like to, she'll like tell people too much information. She tells them too. My son, you, my Matthew is wonderful.

Yeah. But it's just, you know, like, it's a, there is a friendliness there, an approachability there, but it also, you know, you, there sometimes is a lack of filters with, you know, that, that really are boundaries around who am I talking to? How well do I know this person? How much am I measuring the energy I, I, you know, the energy I'm getting from this person? So it might just be that you're ending up in certain situations because you're inviting in all, all of the energy around you. And some of it is good, some of it is bad, some of it is just really weird. And so then you'll end up telling stories to your friends and they're like, yeah, we wouldn't have ended up talking to that weird person. You talk to them because you talk to everybody. So it might, I don't think it's about resting bitch face, but it might be about a level of discernment in saying, where do I give information? Where do I not give information? Where do I have one sentence answers, where do I invite more conversation? And it might even be a little bit of an exploration for you of like, where does that need come from to give too much to everyone? Regardless of that not having that discernment of who, who should have that information or who should still be in conversation with me 10 minutes later. Sometimes, you know, someone is still in conversation with us 10 minutes later because we haven't had any boundaries because, you know, sometimes we don't want to be in that conversation anymore, but we're still there. Why? Because we're afraid to leave or because we feel like we can't cut the conversation short? Maybe because there's a people pleasing element, a fawning element to us, you know, maybe we never want to make anyone uncomfortable.

But, but to be fair, I don't know if you guys agree with this. You know when you're in a taxi, like an Uber, and somebody asks you questions, so you respond and you're friendly, but it's like a 20 minute ride and like you realize, oh, they want to talk for the whole.

I put my headphones in.

But I put my headphones.

Don't you feel really rude?

I, I sometimes will put my headphones in and then if they say something, I make a big deal out of, like taking my headphone out. So I'll be like, yeah, sorry. Sorry. What? Sorry, What? Sorry, what did you say? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, originally London. Yeah. And I put it back in and then they say something else. I go, sorry, did you say what? And I'll do, I'll do that. And then it kind of sinks in like, oh, he's obviously doing something now.

This has happened to me from you so many times and I get now what you are doing.

That's never happened with you, David. No, if I'm, if I'm, it's happened with me.

I think it happened with me yesterday. He was listening to a podcast and.

You were both on a walk together.

I came in. Matt, we need to, we need to start on a vlog soon.

What?

What'd you say? I don't do that to you, David.

But podcast.

Now, I'm telling you, sometimes you just have to, you have to set boundaries. It's not our job to talk to everyone all the time.

People don't just get your time just because they ask for it.

Yeah, but I feel bad.

Well, sometimes I feel bad too. I'm not immune to that feeling. Sometimes I'm just talking to a sweet person and I'm sort of like, I can't do it. Can't put the headphones.

They just want the company. Like it's.

No. So I, I, I, I am as guilty of that as anybody.

And if someone imagine being an extroverted Uber driver, that's hard because you want to talk to people, you're excited.

I think they have plenty. I know. I think they have plenty of people to talk to.

Extroverts get a lot of slack in this world. Okay. We don't need to feel.

Here we go.

We don't need to feel bad. It's literally an extroverts world. We don't need to feel sad for the extroverts. Okay, I'm sorry, but you know, we do. Yeah, I, People, please.

Sometimes I think, Nangar, you It's worth asking yourself, where is this. Where is me being talkative serving me? And where do I feel like? It's not serving me because it's getting me into certain situations that I don't enjoy and are there certain needs being met? By continuing to put myself in these situations, I am people pleasing or. I kind of like the drama of having a bit of a weird story. And there's some sense of significance I get from talking about the weird stories I have or, you know, I. I over share with people because it's part of me trying to get people to like me is to share too much. You know, I have a lack of boundaries around my own information. It's just worth asking those questions. If it's serving you and you love it and you're having a great time talking to everyone everywhere you go in life and you don't care that these moments happen and it's only your friends who think they're weird, but you're just like, this is great. I thrive on how many different, cool, weird things happen in life. When you talk to everyone all the time, then there's nothing to change here. There's only something to change. If you feel like this isn't serving you in some way, dare I say it's that time.

Steve Sleep.

Wait. Don't know. Because we have a theme song. So am I right in saying that we've actually got a theme song today for. For once?

I. I think we do. I think we do. We just have to. Have to get our. Our.

Oh my.

So for anyone listening, Harrison and David are both here. Harrison has a guitar with him, which I'm not. I'm confused because I thought you were recording a song for Steve.

This is a live rendition.

So is the live version gonna get recorded and that's gonna be the recorded version, or are you gonna play this live every single time there's a Steve sleeve? We'll see.

We'll see what the. What the. What the folks want.

Also had no idea that Harrison played instruments.

I know Dark Horse.

Harrison's got so.

No, David told me. Like he plays like multiple instruments. How do you not know this about man? Clearly I've got something to learn from Nanga.

Well, this is how we learn.

You should take your headphones in a while.

Too long. Don't be bereaved.

You know that we can't live without another episode of Steve Sleeves.

Wow.

Very nice.

Sort of a Bossa Nova island sort of vibe.

It's really gentle.

It's very gentle.

I unlike Steve Sleeves it's to just.

We get.

You gotta really center yourself.

It's to calm your nervous system before it gets completely worked up.

Yep.

Okay.

All right, Steve, Sleeves.

So what's this one called?

This is called Limerick.

Limerick Limmarank.

Yeah. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna give you some movies. Famous movie relationships. Love it moments. I want you to tell me if they're limerent or not, and then at the end, tell me the most limerent and the least limerent.

This is great. I love this.

Okay, so I'll just keep these pictures down here and you can. Okay. Love, actually. Andrew Lincoln falling in love with Keira Knightley. The cards. The famous cards at the doorstep scene.

To me, you are perfect.

He falls in love with his best friend's wife.

I. So I've sworn off of love, actually, for decades now because I couldn't stand it the first time I saw it. I've refused to ever watch it again. So I'm actually not massively familiar with this.

You do know this, though. He falls in love with Keira Knightley.

This is very limerick indeed.

He was filming her at her wedding. And then she looks at the wedding video he was filming, and it's all shots of her. He's clearly obsessing over her.

And then he turns up at her door and basically is like. Which is kind of a bit of a shitty move given that she's married to his best friend.

His friend is in the house, in.

The house, and he's like, just say it's the carol singers, like, on this little, like, card. And then he basically declares his love for her on these, like, big cards like that.

Do they end up together?

No.

She kisses him.

Yeah, but she basically says, no, but, like, thanks.

And then so she.

She runs out and kisses him and then he says, oh, enough now sort of thing. So he's. He's broken. Maybe his limerence. He said, I'm done now. I got a kiss from Kira.

I mean, it's very limerent indeed.

Except in. In real life, that would probably spark years more.

That would tear everyone apart or.

No, it would just spark years more of him being limerent. Because the kiss was the hope.

We don't know what love actually to hold. So maybe he does continue to be. I give this.

It does seem. Limerick.

I give this a solid eight and a half hours.

You're gonna. I'm gonna have to go with Audrey on that one because I just. I will never watch that film again.

For a long time.

No, I can't. Stand it.

Bridget Jones with Hugh Grant. Is that limerent or is that just an. A bad man?

She. Oh, I think bad man.

Because Bridget Jones. The reason I brought this. Because Bridget Jones has a tendency. She does often idealize people being the one. She's kind of quite a fantasist.

But isn't she sort of still with. What's the other guy's name?

No, but in the first one, she's choosing between Darcy.

But that's what I mean. Like, she's kind of not. She doesn't get fixated on only one, does she?

Well, she doesn't really see Mark Darcy as a potential romance until he says, you know, I like you just as you are, Bridget. You know, that sort of thing. It's terribly. If you do Colin Firth. Yeah, they're quiet.

Listen to the podcast.

So, yeah, I. I would say I'm. I'm gonna say not limerent, because I don't know. I don't know. Rises to the level of.

That's what I thought, though.

I think it's just an unhealthy relationship with a. With a fuckboy.

Yeah. She just does a lot of idealizing, though. She like. Could this be the one?

Got it.

500 days of summer. Oh, now, full confession. I have not seen this film. Really. I may have seen bits of it.

It surprises me.

I know I sort of should have, but that is.

That's limerence. That was.

As I understand it, he sort of idealizes her and obsesses.

He's. Yeah. And she's not like. He does that crystallization of, like, emphasizing all of her great qualities. We see her through his Len, where she's just nothing but awesome, but she's kind of not like, you know, we get such a distorted lens because we're sort of always seeing her through his perspective, but. And we're always seeing the love through his perspective as well. So we're not really seeing her uncertainty about him in the way that, you know, like, we're really not given an accurate picture.

And his whole life is. And world is governed by her and her feelings towards him.

His mood is completely controlled by. He's singing and dancing in the street when it's going, well, that's a nine.

Out of ten Limerence.

Okay. And Zooey Deschener was labeled as the original manic pixie dream girl from that movie, which is often like a male fantasy figure of, like, man's idealized manic pixie. They call them manic pixie dream girls. It's like a certain type of archetype of female character who's like a male fantasy.

Didn't Natalie Portman in Gardens that she.

Was one of the original manic pixie dream girls? Yeah, yeah.

I've never heard of this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's like. It's sort of an. Sort of the indie dream.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. The girl who's different.

Yeah. She's quirky, still very beautiful. She's unbelievably gorgeous. But. And, but she sort of sees you and she gets you and she's into you. Yeah.

Who is the ultimate person like that? Who is the actress who is in.

Oh, my God, Scott Pilgrim. That's another version.

Oh, yeah.

You know the. The. The movie that we watched with Zach Brath about addiction and she plays.

Oh, yeah. What was that new Zach Braff movie called? The one about addiction?

Florence Pugh. Okay. Gatsby and Daisy. The Great Gatsby. I think that's got to be a top 10.

10. Limerence.

10.

I mean, he's obsessed with her for.

Years and builds a lifestyle that might be an 11.

He tries to win her, and she's not. She's shallow and she's unlikable.

She's shallow, she's vain. She has very little to say of any real substance. He cannot see. Like, he disregards any of that. He is just fixated on what he perceives to be her good qualities. And he builds an entire life, not unlike Noah in the Notebook, but he builds an entire life around capturing her heart. You know, everything he does from the house he buys to the life he lives to the. To the parties he has. The parties are all about hoping to engineer a moment right with her. They're not. You know, it's. It's. His whole world is about how to win her. All his thoughts are about her. So 11. That's. That's an 11. He dies for her in the end. I mean, I don't know if there's any spoiler alerts anymore on the great cats.

Yeah, well, Fitzgerald understood Limerence. There's something about Mary.

Can't remember that it seems like.

Well, the whole point. The movie is everyone's. Every man has a limerent obsession with.

And everyone perceives what she does to be some sign that she's into them.

Right. There's like a whole group of men who are basically obsessed with her.

That's right.

It's because Cameron Diaz is so damn beautiful.

They. Yeah, but they're all miss. They're all reading her signs as something special for them.

But, you know, you know I was.

Yeah.

I read something the other day about how most like this, the percentage of men who misread interest in women is so high and so like men will miss read friendliness and smiling and just being warm with romantic interest all the time.

Except that wouldn't be defined as limerance. But just like maybe. Maybe that's what.

But maybe that's what that is.

No, because they follow her around like puppies, don't they, in that film?

Yeah, it's.

It's a. It's not just like they think they've got a show. It's like they. They.

They're obsessed.

They're obsessed. Yeah.

Her.

I haven't seen that movie.

Man falls in love with an AI played by Scarlett Johan.

Well, that's because she looks like Scarlett Johansson.

No, he doesn't know what she looks like.

She's just a voice.

She does sound like Scarlett Johansson.

That's got to be the ultimate limerence because the, The. The dichotomy that you're saying of hope.

Well, but she does fall in love with him. She's in love with him.

But he.

There.

There's the. There's always a disconnection to physically being with that person, right?

Oh, yeah. There's the ultimate barrier, but it's an external barrier. It's not coming. The uncertainty isn't coming from her.

Yeah.

It's coming from the circumstances.

And do you think that that could still Manifest Limerence?

Yeah, 100%.

It would be similar to being long distance.

Yeah. No, there's. Limerence can absolutely take.

But doesn't he kind of accept she's an AI? Well, they try a bit. They try a bit to make her physical.

I think that's. I think that probably. God, I mean, you could say it's a genuine love story, but I would say maybe what tips it over into limerence is the. As David says, the barrier. Right.

Oh, because they're.

Because they're wildly incompatible. Right. If you think about it. So, I mean, God, are we. Interesting. We're gonna conversation for today because are we gonna.

Years.

Are we now? Is there gonna be an epidemic of limerent people who have fallen in love with AIs? Because that's already happening.

Well, this needs to be on your watch list, Audrey. That's a good one.

Yeah, I want to watch it.

You'd really like that. Silly. The holiday Limerent.

Iris and Jasper.

That's Limerant. Limerin. Limerant.

Yeah.

Kate Winslet will go kind of dreams about her. The guy who. Well, I guess she can't have. He dangles her. He dangles her on a string.

I was gonna say, like, yes, it is limerent. But in her defense, she's not hanging on nothing.

He kind of manipulates.

He's kind of. Again, it's a bit of a grant thing. He's a bit of a boy. Well, he's a massive boy who's like, basically really enjoying her attention. And so she's. She's not kind of just reading into, like, a potential fantasy and signals. She's actually.

He gives her crumbs.

Yeah. He's like, I love you and all of this stuff.

Yeah, but you don't. It doesn't have to be com. It doesn't have to be fabricated in our own minds for it to constitute limerence. You know, there's. They're wildly incompatible. He is not available. He completely controls her mood to get away, to have any hope of getting over him, she literally has to go halfway across the world. You know, she's. She obsessively thinks about him. She can't. Like, he. He's literally getting married to somebody else and he. You know, I mean, she doesn't know this at this point, but, like, he's with someone else and he gives her a gift and it means everything to her. And that's. The kind of hope is like, that connection to him. It has. That has all the hallmarks of limerence.

I get Audrey's point that people can provoke, that fuel, that hope.

Yeah. Out of 10, what would you give it?

10.

10.

Always 10. 10.

We'll go for anyone who's like, how do I get over limerence? I think we should do a different episode on that. But we'll. We'll talk about the holiday when we do that.

Controversial choice, Titanic.

Don't you dare go after.

I'm asking the question.

No, that's not limerence. That's just the most beautiful love story of all times. Put it down.

Set on a big boat.

Yeah. But they don't know that the boat's gonna sink. And before the boat sinks, she says, I'm gonna leave Cal and be with you. So it's not limerence. They're just in love.

Well, next. Hang on.

If you ruin Titanic for me, I will never forgive you.

I'm not ruining Titanic. But firstly, there was uncertainty because they weren't on the same deck.

There's uncertainty at the beginning of every single relationship. You don't know that someone likes you or doesn't like you.

Fair enough. Let me. Let me finish. Let me finish. Isn't it a bit odd that we. The whole movie is set on a boat that's looking for the Titanic wherein she has everyone captivated by a love story that happened for about five minutes like 60 years ago.

What do you mean?

Oh, so she's.

Well, she got married after that and had a whole family.

We, by the way, we hear nothing of that man.

Although then again, that story was her story of the Titanic. So, you know, it was relevant.

Yeah, but she was.

Oh, you mean she's limering over. Over Jack after he died.

Yeah, well, because she's not talking about her husband who presumably.

But surely the hope is dashed because he's dead. So that's because I asked you earlier what about if you had a love story and then you broke up and you said, I'll always love them. That to me falls in that camp. And you said that wasn't limerence. I don't think that's limerence. I think that's just a beautiful love story. Arguably the most beautiful.

Her finally breaking the limerence spell was dropping the next necklace. That was the final letting go.

I do feel a bit sorry. I've always felt that like, you know, Rose's actual husband, who she had like a proper like, you know, 50 year marriage with a family with and like she's kind of just there like I've always loved this other man she goes.

To the afterlife with. Jack.

How long was the Titanic, you know, cruising for? 5 days a week.

A few days.

Yeah.

We've all had holiday romances like, oh, this is a week of her life. She's in her 80s.

Is an extreme week. Very memorable.

That's part of it. That's my point. All right, I don't, I'm not. But I like, you know, listen, I, I will say this, this, I think this gets to the crux of something. There is, you know, movies and TV and songs are like 90 limerence.

Oh, limerent crack.

Yeah. And by the way, we all love it. I don't, I wouldn't ruin the Titanic, the Titanic for myself.

Well, you're trying to for everybody else.

No, this is the point. I can hold two things in my mind. I can watch Titanic and weep for how beautiful that is and love the romance of it. And I do not, I don't, don't think for one second you know this about me because, you know, I'm a weeper. I, I watch these things and I am so in. I love a song, I love a Japanese anime that.

You love Titanic.

I love Titanic. But how many, how Many animes do I love where it's like absurd really the thought the love story is utterly absurd really.

Matt's not listening to podcasts. He's just listening to my heart will go on.

Exactly. Sorry, what I'm just. But we have like there's we. I think we have to draw a line between the two. God, thank God for limerence or we'd be missing most art.

I mean and also I didn't. I didn't pick the boring healthy relationships from movies, you know.

Yeah, you didn't pick.

There are exactly.

They were the less memorable ones like oh that couple in that film that stayed together.

So is that it?

That's it.

Well I'm supposed to give the ultimate.

That the worst it sounded like your most limerent was Gatsby hundred percent Lee Slimmer and was the Bridget Jones one.

Titan even remember you think least limerant is Titanic.

Yeah, we've established Titanic is just beautiful.

I think the Bridget Jones one was fine.

Yeah I fine. Titanic is just a love story. She did feel a bit strongly that that far down the line but yeah. So Titanic Fine. I'm going to give it to Audrey. Not Limerant. Gatsby. Gatsby's like the pinnacle of limerence.

It's tragedy for that reason.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's a limerent tragedy. Well, there we have it. Another episode of Steve Sleeves. What do you think? Did we get it wrong on any of those films? Did Audrey get it wrong on Titanic? Are there other films that you want to throw in the mix? Email us podcastthewhussey.com we love hearing from you. We love reading your comments out loud on the podcast. So take a moment to email us whether it's something funny, something an observation about the episode, something we've missed or something you agree with. Well, that's it for today. We did it again. Don't forget to grab your retreat ticket before July 25th. This is the best deal you're going to get to come and join us for this really, really life changing event. I know that word is thrown around but I promise you, you speak to anyone who has been to this event, they'll tell you this changed their lives. Retreat access.com is the link. Go grab yourself the tickets while they're deeply discounted and while the offer is available to get the impact program, if you join me in Miami in the room for the event. Thank you so much as always for watching or listening. I appreciate you. We appreciate you and we'll see you.

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