What The Hell Is "The Ick" (And Why Does It End Relationships)?

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You now focus in on something that maybe in the beginning would not have caught your attention. Certainly not in the romantic phase of the relationship. Welcome to the Love Life podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, my brother Stephen Hussey.

Hello, friends.

And Audrey joining us today.

Hello, everybody.

We had an email that demanded you back. Did you know that?

No, I didn't know that.

What did it say? Well, maybe we'll read it at the end, but there was. There was an email that. that said something interesting about you being here. So we'll come on to that.

It was from Matthew to me. What was that thing you were taught? I overheard you two talking about while I was in the other room. Matt. Matt was saying, we've just got back from our retreat. And Matt was saying, I find it so amazing that we're here in England and I've brought sand from Florida with me into our house.

What?

What was that about?

No, firstly, I didn't bring, it's not like I brought a bottle of sand back from Florida. It's that Audrey emptied her shoe just now.

It was my sock.

Onto mum's carpet, I should say. Just straight out onto the carpet. And there was sand that came out. And I was like, isn't, I said something that I thought I didn't know if anyone would relate to, but I said to Audrey, I've always found it just weird and amazing, the idea that when you come back from a place, you, when you bring the sand with you, you know, like we're in England right now and there's Florida sand in this house. We've brought it to a place it shouldn't be.

I agree. I think it's, I think it's pretty crazy when you think about it.

It is mind-blowing.

It's absolutely mind-blowing. I said to Matthew, actually, I feel the same way when you bring seashells. Stephen's looking at us. What the hell?

When we were in Tahiti, you brought back a seashell.

I did. I brought back a seashell and I thought, oh my God, where has this seashell been? What's the story? What journey has it been on to end up in our bed?

Imagine it was in the French Polynesian waters of Tahiti and it's now somewhere it has no right being in England.

Or you bring back like a fossil. And that fossils been on hundreds, thousands of years journey.

Right.

I don't know where you're finding fossils. But we were going for a more modest sort of shell by the beach.

Is me bringing... I brought some peanut brittle back from LA. Is that similar?

I... I don't think it's... No, I don't think it's a world apart, because it's still just this kind of feeling of... I've brought this far from its home.

No, but there is a big difference because it's not a part of nature.

You feel like you're, like, hauling up the earth and. And spreading it.

There's something romantic about sand and. And shells being, you know, halfway across the world from where they originated. I. I suppose it's maybe a bit.

Different with peanut brittle that's recently been manufactured in.

Yeah, but I do actually, I'm not gonna say it's a totally different thing.

No, that's probably why people keep the little bottles of sand in their house, don't they? That was a fashionable thing to do sort of when we were kids, is people had bottles of sand from everywhere they've been.

Yeah, I think that's still quite a nice little, it's quite cute.

And it all came from space one day, so.

As did we.

As did we. Welcome everyone to the Love Life Podcast.

Well, we're talking today about a concept that I hadn't, and I feel strange that I haven't heard about it, given the nature of my job and what we speak about a lot. But I hadn't heard of this term until recently, and it appears to be a term that has become somewhat widely used. Some of our listeners will no doubt have heard it, and others It will it will be initially alien to but like me, I think once you hear it and you hear what it is, it will immediately resonate with you as a phenomenon. So, Stephen, what is the word we're going to talk about today? And then maybe before we jump into it, we'll have a little review from iTunes.

Okay. The word we're going to discuss is I'm going to title this what the hell is the ick? Matt.

So the word is ick.

The ick.

Which is hilarious to me that you have never heard of it before. I think it's just because you're men.

And we're less judgmental, so we don't get the ick.

Not really where I was going, but... Open-minded.

Well, let's hang on, let's just step back for a moment and can we just define what's the... I doubt it's in Webster's, but... What is the internet definition of the ick?

Okay, the ick is a feeling of being irrevocably turned off, generally with no hope of return for a current or a budding relationship.

Got it.

It was originally, it didn't originate on TikTok, but it's been very popular on TikTok with people describing when they got the ick. Apparently it became big because a contestant called Olivia Atwood on Love Island in 2017 described getting the ick with one of the guys on there. And everyone was like, what's that? And she talked about it.

So Audrey, you're having a go about us not knowing about it, but it originated from Love Island, which is a place I have never and will never reside.

Which is some sand Matt will never be bringing back.

It did not originate from Love Island. It originated way before Love Island, but she used it on Love Island and made it popular. But I think I would stand to argue that every woman or majority of women has experienced the ick or heard of the ick and know what the ick is all about. So I was very, very surprised that you guys had never heard of it. It felt like you'd been living under a rock.

It had never been brought up to me. by any woman I've ever coached as the ick. So that's, or maybe someone had written that in a comment and I had just thought it was a typo.

I had had one friend who described to me when we were teenagers, she said, oh, there's this feeling you get if you're like, you wanna break up with your boyfriend or whatever, and he makes your skin crawl. She didn't call it the ick then. But that's how she described it.

Same phenomenon. Well, we're going to get into what some of the most common icks are. It will be a fun sort of quiz, I suppose, to see if any of these are our listeners icks. If they are, if we come across one of your icks today, then write in podcast@matthewhussie.com if we don't cover your ick, send us an email anyway. with the one that we didn't cover. I would be fascinated to know what your specific ick is. What is that thing that just destroys your attraction for someone big or small? So, Stephen, before we go any further, firstly, I just want to make sure everybody knows that until the end of this month, we have early bird tickets available for the final virtual retreat of the year. It's taking place in November. It's the last one. If you haven't been on our retreat yet and you want big change in your life, your confidence, the way that you go through life, your ability to handle the challenges you're going through in life, dealing with negative emotional patterns, dealing with patterns of self sabotage, sticking to habits, being able to deal with the dynamics of the people in your life, not just dynamics in your love life, but the dynamics with family, with friendships, with people at work. This program is an immersive program that is like a full life servicing of ourselves. And It is the word transformation is sort of thrown around these days. But the people who have been to the retreat will tell you that that word is entirely appropriate when it comes to this program. And this is our final one. The virtual retreat is an easier investment both in time and money than our in-person retreat that we just did in Florida. This is three days and it takes place two of those three days over a weekend. So it's very easy to come to without taking time off work or only taking one day off. And it's a really great way into the world of the retreat. So I want to encourage everybody to go to mHVirtuallretreat.com and check out those early bird tickets because not only do they come with some very special bonuses, that are only available with the early bird ticket, but they also are the cheapest tickets you will get for the virtual retreat. And that's because we want to reward the people who get in early, and it's only until the end of the month. So go to mhvirtualretreat.com for the final retreat of this year. Very good. Stephen, what's our lovely iTunes thread saying? What are people saying on iTunes about us?

So, we have a lovely review from Sunday Fun, who says, Thank you. After a 10-year relationship fail, I'm learning from you both how to heal, how to not get hurt again. I've listened to a lot of your content and feel you've helped me become a better person. A better dating partner. Help me stay single because I won't accept toxic traits. I share your podcast to everyone that is struggling through relationship loss or not. I hope to become a better person because of your team's podcast. Thank you very much. Lovely.

Thank you Sunday fun.

That's so nice.

Well, let's do it. ICK Steve, where do you want to start with the ICK?

Well, yeah, to reiterate. So the ick is supposed to be this feeling of suddenly, irrevocably being turned off by someone with no hope of return. It could be a current relationship, could be a budding one. It tends to often be people in this sort of middle stage, I'd say, or early to Middle stage. And basically there became this Tick Tock Trend as much as I am up. with Tick Tock Trends. There was this Tick Tock trend of people describing their version of the ick. And this is where I want to point a question to you, Audrey, as we come on to this as a woman, because I feel there's some weird mix here between what might be genuine incompatibility and that causes the ick and then, like, just pet peeves and a lot of these lists. So there's a list that came up. that was a bunch of people's icks and they sort of sound ridiculous.

Go on.

Um, Matt, if I told you...

Wait, these are ones you found on TikTok?

These are ones that were listed in various articles gathered from TikTok, places like that. Putting his hands up on a roller coaster has given someone the ick. Playing cricket.

Well, hang on, let's just... So the roller coaster one is... Well.

There'S a few of these, so... One, but...

But just, you know, maybe we can pick up the pace on them. But like, can we just for a moment speculate on why putting someone's putting your hands up on a roller coaster might be an ick? I have a theory.

I suppose it's like people see it as cringe or they see it as try hard.

Yeah.

I think they see it as a bit goofy.

Yeah.

And a little bit like you're enjoying yourself too much. You're a little bit too in the moment.

It's a bit overly enthusiastic. Yeah, it's not cool. It's not like it's not like you're just on a roller coaster having a good time. It's like I'm on a roller coaster and I'm going to make it even more scary by putting my hands in the air.

Right?

Like, I'm a bad dude.

I'm a bad boy, baby. No, no, no.

It's the opposite. It's the opposite. It's like I'm the bad boy is like, well, you know, the bad boy is looking at the person with their hands up and like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that?

The bad boy is enduring the roller coaster.

Oh, so this guy's not really into it.

He's loving it. The bad boy, if the guy's sitting next, imagine like a teenager sitting next to his mum and his mum puts her hands up on the roller coaster and he's like, Mum, put your hands down. What are you doing? Because that sort of feeling. So it's overly keen.

Right.

And again, these are all the frivolous ones. There are some more.

Right, but I just think it's interesting to kind of get a little bit of psychology here.

So what's the next one? One is playing cricket. I guess so.

Well, hang on, this is a very English reference. This could not have come from American TikTok.

Oh, well, no, TikTok's, you know, it's.

All over the shop. Well, I know that, but there's no way this is not like... This is a very local reference.

There's a few more.

Why playing cricket? For those in America, why might playing cricket be an itch?

It might be seen as like a fusty sport, and it's... Like a bit.

Of a tough... A bit of Posh boys.

A bit of a Posh boy school boy sport. I guess that would be the image people would have of it. But here's some others. Jumped weird on a trampoline.

Now that is very, very specific.

Very specific.

How many people are even seeing, I mean, you can go your whole life without seeing anyone you date on a trampoline.

Yeah, so if he does it 10 years into the marriage, you're screwed.

Right.

And you get the ick.

If that's your thing, you better put them on a track. You better find an excuse to get them on a trampoline quickly.

I did not know what that prat would look like on a trampoline.

Yeah, had I known...

I thought he was the man of my dreams. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I feel misled. But I sniffed loudly.

Hang on though, why the trampoline thing?

Oh, sorry Steve.

You're over analyzing.

I think the trampoline thing is the same as the roller coaster thing. I reckon he was enjoying himself a little bit too much on the trampoline, letting go. Not enough indifference.

Not enough indifference, not enough composure. Do you think it's also a coordination thing?

Like, I don't like, he sort of looked all gangly and weird. Look, well here's one, here's one. Standing in a long line. Standing in a long line could give someone the itch.

I have speeches for that one.

Is that just... That feels cultural to me.

Cultural?

Yeah.

There are some cultures that just don't... The idea of standing in a line is sort of offensive and there are.

Others that are real... Like it's too submissive.

Like English people queue up.

Right.

You know what I mean? They queue up, whereas there are other cultures where they're just like, what are you doing? No, I'm just gonna find a way around this. They can't deal with it.

Right, right.

I can definitely see a French woman being put off by somebody standing in the line for too long.

Right, right. And you are, of course, speaking as a French woman.

As a French woman, Audrey is not.

Just saying she's not just hating on the French right now. She is the French.

He literally might be standing in line buying movie tickets for you guys, and she goes, well, I don't like to look at it.

I don't like what I'm seeing.

She goes, I can't take this.

This isn't for me.

Here's another one. Sat cross-legged so I'm in trouble if people can look at me right now.

If you saw me right now, I'm halfway between a cross-legged star.

That was one I saw. People didn't like one knee over the other.

What do you mean?

Well, that's just. You've got one knee.

I'm sat cross-legged sort of in a. Oh, you're cross-legged this would be one.

Knee over the other is if I'm.

Just sit like this.

No, I think.

I think what Matt's doing is cross-legged I think. No, no, I. I think that you're- I'm cross-legged, you're sort of one knee over the other.

No, I think that the cross-legged thing is that it feels sort of infant-like.

Right.

Feels like sort of childish and therefore it doesn't feel, I think the versions of the versions of the same thing, one feels a bit like you sort of resembling a child and the cross and the one leg over the other, some people I think look at and go, oh, that's too feminine.

This is an ancient yogic pose. I mean, this is, you know, you're, you're disgracing all kinds of traditions.

And, and there are lots of, this is, you know, we'll come on to this. But if, if Prince, and I don't know how Prince sat, but I bet you he sat with one leg over.

The other a lot.

Yeah. And people loved it in a lovely.

Purple pair of trousers.

Yeah.

And, and it was, and I bet.

Purple trousers is on some people's list.

But when Prince Bloody does it, right? Man or woman. you you want to shag him, right?

Yeah.

I'm not saying I'm just he's prince. He's prince. That's what I'm trying to say is that I bet you people were never arguing that Prince had one leg over the other. But, you know.

Right.

Well, it's all coming out now, isn't it?

Here's another one. Studied business. I think people just see that as a they see a cliche of a certain kind of man who studies business. you know, someone who's. Someone who's not culturally deep or something like that.

Like, it's interesting. Well, it's just sort of seen as a kind of catch-all, like you didn't know what else to do, so you. It's not a dig. It's not a sign of passion. So you just went for business or that you're sort of only commercially driven, and that's a turn.

Right, right. Like, you're not. There's not interest or quirkiness there. Interesting.

Yeah.

Was too nice. I mean, that's put a person really putting their cards on the table there was too nice. Although that could be seen as people can be cloying or annoying or needy if they're, you know, nice is a, is a sort of euphemistic word, isn't it? Eight pork. That's quite culturally specific, I think. Eight pork or vegetarian.

Well, a lot of people really like pigs.

A lot of people like pigs.

I do feel like pork, even amongst people who it's not a cultural or a religious thing that they don't eat pork. There's just sort of a scene, eating pigs is just seen as particularly, you know, they're bright, they're really bright.

I love the attention you're giving to these. There's a lot.

I find it interesting. I think there's insights into people from these.

There's one woman wrote, so one guy wrote, girls who can't drive a manual car Denim jackets with woolly collars. And then a woman said... A guy wrote that.

A guy wrote jackets with woolly collars. That feels like a woman wrote that.

And then there was a... And then there was a woman who said, I can't look at my partner when he's showering. He looks pathetic. I mean, like, so many of these are, like, moments of little vulnerability, and they're just immediately pounced on. But a man showering, he literally can't do anything about that. And also so mean. And also some women find it sexy.

Sorry.

Like, some people find it sexy watching their partner shower. So that's kind of.

She said that about guys she's with.

Yeah.

I can't stand watching my partner shower.

I feel like with a lot of these, there's some pre-existing contempt just waiting to come out.

Right.

Do you know what I mean? Like.

Like, hyper judgmental.

Oh, yeah.

If you.

If you feel like your partner is just the sexiest, most manly, amazing, just person that you've ever met in your entire life, and you see him naked, showering, you wouldn't go to. He looks pathetic.

Yeah, you. Sorry, Ryan Gosling. I'm not into. When you soap yourself, I just. It turns my stomach.

I feel like it's almost that behavior then highlights something that's already existing in the way that they. deceived that person.

Do you think?

I think so.

I think it's also possible that. I think that's true. I think it's also possible that something that someone does can remind a person of some. May something conscious or unconscious from their past that's become kind of locked in as a. It's like if you're. I don't know, if you're. parent ate a certain way that sort of drove you mad at one point or another, and then you date someone who has that eating style, you know, choose their food that way, then it's kind of becomes triggering and it might be a kind of overall result of the contempt you feel for your partner in other ways. Or it could be something that you just kind of go, it reminds you of something. that you really don't like?

Yeah, I think that's true. I also think it's interesting. I lost my trailer for, hang on. What was I gonna say? Sorry.

No, gone.

Oh no. I blanked.

Do you know what's really comforting is that, you know, Billy, of course, was recently on stage with me and he blanked.

No, we're not including this.

Come on, we're gonna come- no, this stays in. Now, you just had a moment where you blanked. And it's very comforting because I've had some moments where I've blanked on very high profile stages, famously on the Today Show. I completely blanked on live TV with Kathie Lee and Hoda.

And.

There were moments where I thought, oh, this is it. This is my brain's slow decline now. It's happening. And just to see, just to see other people I really respect and love having the exact same moment, it's very comforting.

So you didn't even attribute it to nervousness. You thought, I'm going into senility at like 27.

My sort of, my anxiety went to, oh, it's starting to, yeah, this is not good.

That's where you went to.

A little bit.

Because I would just immediately think, I'm really nervous.

I did think that. No, I did. And it did kind of give me a new kind of stage fright once I'd blanked my eyes suddenly. A new kind of stage fright I'd never had before. Because I always felt like, oh, I can rely on my brain.

Right.

If I'm in a difficult situation, I'll always find something to say. And then the possibility just appeared that, oh, I can just blank. That can happen. And I don't, My brain, when I think it's happening, then my brain really goes, the only dialogue going on inside my brain is, it's happening, you're going blank, you're going blank.

Yeah, that's what just happens. Yeah, exactly what just happens.

Exactly.

Thanks for keeping it in. I really appreciate you keeping that in that sense.

So, so like a lot of these icks, right, those are silly. And I don't know if that's what, when people talk about The ick as like a big thing they felt. They suddenly-- I've heard it, like I say, I've heard it described as like your partner suddenly makes your skin crawl. There's some description here by a psychologist like suddenly they're-- them kissing your neck feels like a slug crawling around your neck and you're like, oh, get off me. But like, it's almost like something is broken and you've-- maybe it's like this person reminds me of some like, asshole I remember, or I've seen something in their. Their value system, their beliefs, the way they think about, you know, suddenly you think this person is. I don't know. Oh, this person's got a really, like, crass, horrible, like, view on the world, or there's some way they're rude, or there's some way they. There's something right. And you're just like, I can't stand this kind of person. It's, like, a bit deeper than these silly things. Isn't it?

I actually don't think it is. I think the ick is so much more primitive than that. And I think it's interwoven insecurity because, you know, when you're younger, I think you're much more likely to get the ick over very, very stupid things.

Which would explain why so many of these seemingly weird, quirky and superficial things have come via TikTok.

Well, exactly. Precisely. And I think, yeah, as you said.

Not that we're not all capable of them, I should say. You know, I think that everyone's cape, because it's primitive, everyone is capable of having it at a different, at any stage. But tell us just why I am curious why younger means more icks potentially.

Well, there is actually a meme which I will read out because I want to do it proper justice. Which relates to dating in your 20s versus dating in your 30s. It says, dating in your 20s, it's not going to work out. I don't like the way he choose. You could argue the definition of the ick.

Right?

Right.

Dating in your 30s, it wasn't even a felony and he was never convicted. Also, living at home makes sense because it allows him to be close to his mum and it's walking distance to the pizza hut he works at. I think this says a hell of a lot about why you get the ick when you're younger and less so perhaps when you're older. I think when you're younger and you feel like there is an abundance of time and people and choice, you just get to value very superficial things. And that's no shade on young people. I think, you know, you, there are plenty of young people who have a level of maturity that people never reach when they're older, but as a general rule, you're always wanting to date the cool, hot, funny, popular person, and you are less sort of drawn to the kinds of traits that maybe you gravitate towards as you get older. And I think when you're younger, you're much more judgmental and contemptuous towards other people because you have a lot of insecurities within yourself. So you find yourself repulsive in certain ways. You desperately want to be cool. You never want to be found out for anything. And so to associate yourself with somebody who could possibly, you know, drag you down to the level that you think you're at and possibly make you feel like you're not, you know, you're suddenly not popular and you're suddenly not that person. I think that's. That's one of the reasons that we get so repulsed by people.

Oh, my God, this guy's not in the cool club. Like, he's like.

Yeah.

It's like, it's gonna infect me sort of thing.

Exactly. I think it's almost like, look at him. He's sitting cross-legged he looks so, you know, weak and, oh, my God, I can't be around that. I can't have people think that the guy that I'm with is that kind of guy. Oh, I'm repulsed. And I think that's where the Primitive response comes in because it's such a kind of emotional response. And I think the older you get, the more comfortable you get in yourself, the more you realize that you yourself aren't perfect and people are. you know, people with flaws and whatever. And I think you just end up being way more accepting of certain things because you realize that in order to find a partner, you have to make allowances for people's weird quirks.

It's sort of when we think of the movie Inside Out and there are the different emotions, anthropomorphized as little beings in her brain, disgust is one of them. and we associate disgust with teenagers, right? You think, when you think of like disgust as an emotion in our mind that goes through life and disgust describes herself as like, my job is to save Riley, this girl being portrayed in the movie from social suicide. And when you're a teenager, that's like your driving motive. is to save yourself from social suicide. And so you're looking for all of these cues in life as to what represents call, what represents uncall. And let me avoid uncall like the plague because there are real consequences in life to being perceived as uncall. And one of the ways that I could end up being perceived as uncall is if I'm around anything and anyone that is uncall. And I think that over the course of our lives, hopefully, if we grow and mature, disgust that little being in our mind starts to loosen up and play less and less of a driving role, as you say, because we start to be humbled ourselves in life. We realize that we do lots of uncool things. We begin to accept the uncool parts of ourselves. And in doing so, we become more compassionate towards other people. And hopefully we start to gravitate more towards what are the things that actually matter. And that to me, Steve, is almost what you're getting at, is that, see, I kind of, I think there is interesting things on both sides, because on one hand, I do think that the icks take place on a kind of primitive level. that means that for practical purposes, it's almost like they don't differentiate. The silly icks don't actually really differentiate themselves from the ones that we might perceive as being about something much more meaningful and important. But what you're saying, Steve, is that there are some icks that get to much more fundamental. things, right?

Like, say, if you, you were dating someone and they were just a chaotic, disorganized nightmare, and you were like, oh, my God, I've played mother to a guy like this before, and I'm like, I'm out. I don't want a guy like this. Or you have, like, someone who is super needy and, like, over lavishes you with, like, gifts and attention early on, and you're like, oh, God, I don't, I don't want. I've had a needy. I've had a needy boyfriend before. I've got to, like, get away from this. And, like, something that's almost like a trigger for, like, oh, you've just had, like, a domineering dad or man or something where you've been like, this person talks over me. They don't let me do this. They. They. He tries, like, one thing that sounds a bit controlling, and it triggers something in you that's like, I don't want someone who's going to control me. And it's more like something viscerally is like, nope.

But to that extent, really, if you think about it, an ick is just a trigger. So if you take the idea of, like, the chaotic person that is a turn off because you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to end up playing mother to this person. And you go, well, what would be the ick? The ick might be you got in that guy's car for the first time, and it was gross, right? And it was a mess. And if you were then to kind if someone put that out on TikTok as the ick, they wouldn't describe it as my ick is a chaotic person whose life is in disorder and can't manage their responsibilities. You would say someone having a messy car.

He had like five McDonald's wrappers in his car.

Exactly. To me, an ick is just a portal to that's why I'm interested, because an ick to me is just a gateway. to a bigger theme about what is unattractive. And maybe, I don't know if maybe there are examples of things that are not, maybe the kind of kissing neck one, but even then I kind of feel like... No, that's more... We take.

That point was when he, when you have the ick, him kissing your neck is horrible.

Oh yeah, I agree.

It wasn't kissing your neck is an ick. It's when you have the ick, then it's disgusting the idea of...

I think when you have the ick, It's, there is no return. That's the truth. There's no return from the ick.

But I, I saw him wait in a line. You said he did not go and punch that cashier and swipe the tickets himself.

So there is no going point and no return. I, but I do think the ick is not just something that happens early on in dating when you're getting to know someone. There's that scene in, the eternal sunshine of the spotless mind where Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet have been partners now for some time. And you can see that the contempt that is created from familiarity is starting to set in, and they're starting to argue and pick at each other. And they're at dinner at a time when he describes the two of them as they've become part of the dining dead, which is a really sort of morbid idea and a really depressing depiction of people in long-term relationships. But we all know what is meant by that. And she says to him in a moment of what looks, we can feel it when we see it, it looks like contempt. She says, you know, can you please clean up your hairs? And she says this over dinner. I think they were at sushi at the time. And she's like, can you please clean up your hairs? in the bathroom, in the shower. It's gross. And that to me is like a moment where she gets the ick over something. And it's not the dating discovery phase. It's the, it's almost the, the, the unraveling phase or the phase of I'm, I'm now really close to you. And because, like we said, it can come from a kind of wider contempt for somebody, you now focus in on something that maybe in the beginning would not have caught your attention, certainly not in the romantic phase of the relationship where we have a tendency to overlook so much. Yeah.

Yeah.

So how would you say you can kind of combat the ick?

Well, I suppose combating it is at odds with the idea that it's a primitive response if, if we're kind of, if we're triggered against our will.

There's some people, there's some people you are meant to just ick. That's the point, right? You, you can't, you can't be everyone's cup of tea. You can't, like, blend into everyone. So some people, you're, you're gonna have to be, if you are Wall Street business guy, some people are into that, and you're gonna ick some people by being that person.

But you know what's interesting to me? is I think people generally get the ick around people where they have been given enough rope to hang them, if that makes sense? Meaning?

Explain that.

Well, if somebody is conscientious, kind, and, you know, makes somebody feel liked and don't play any games, whatever, you're way more likely to have room to get the ick. that rather than if you're dating a person who's a little bit toxic, who keeps you on your toes, you don't know where you stand, I think that person can put their hands up in the roller coaster as much as they like. And you're just too focused on whether they like you or not that you're not even actually trying to pick up on these little things that can put you off. Which I think is interesting because I think that speaks also to maybe how available you should make yourself in early dating to someone, you know, maybe the ick, is a combination sometimes anyway of just somebody feeling that they have us.

Now, I, so I find that to be a really, really, really interesting point. And I think there's a lot of truth to it. I think when our bandwidth is taken up with that feeling of, do I even have this person? You know, you're sort of second guessing whether they're into you. They do seem like they're into you, but they also seem slightly unavailable. And you're like, I need to lock it down. Then there's. Then all of your. All of your bandwidth is going to that mission. When you do have time, as you say, to kind of step back and feel completely and utterly safe in every way, you start looking for. It's almost like we start looking for faults now. What I find interesting about that is, okay, in early dating, we do sometimes come across as too available, right? And that's not game playing to be slightly unavailable. It should come from an authentic place of someone hasn't become your world instantly. They are still someone that you're getting to know. You do have other things that are important to you. in life. And you don't just kind of every time they reach out, drop everything to have conversations for hours and hours and hours. They feel your absence at times and that makes them think about you and imagine you and wonder what you're thinking and wonder if you're into them on the same level that they're into you. And there's that kind of romance plotline. In a relationship, I'm curious as to what you think is the answer, both of you, to when you really do feel safe and when it doesn't feel like it's appropriate to appear in any way unavailable, at least in the context we would think of it in early dating. And therefore, the ick sets in because people get comfortable and they start to take each other for granted. And one of the key kind of, we all do it to an extent, right? With everybody, with family members, we do it with friends, we do it with partners long term.

When.

We start to take for granted all of the wonderful things about them, we start to focus on the things about them that frustrate us. that annoy us, and that's a very easy thing to do. How do you combat that in a long-term situation?

Well, there you are talking about, like, the deeper ick of, like, the. The deeper things that come out right there.

I don't know if I differentiate. In other words, in a relationship, something highly, highly superficial can start to bother you that didn't bother you. before because you've almost. Because as a result of you've started to take that person for granted.

I have a controversial opinion on the subject. Would you like to hear it?

This is a family podcast.

You don't want to worry about it. No, we're okay.

Okay, then. Fine. I'm blanked anyway. Can't remember it. No, I think people. get comfortable with their partners and they forget that they have to feed the flame of attraction. And I think they step into the territory of, you know, hanging out with their best friend or hanging out with their family member. And that's not to say that you shouldn't feel like you can be yourself around your long-term partner. You absolutely should. But I think you need to remember that is somebody in front of you that they still need to find you attractive, they still need to find you sexy, and so you don't need to reveal every single part of yourself all the time to them. And you should be making maybe not as much of an effort, but certainly, you know, close to as much of an effort as you were when you were first dating.

There's a... it could be argued. I'm not saying this is right, but it could be argued that you should definitely make as much effort.

Well, you can't make as much effort as you did because you see each other all the time. So there's by default going to be moments where, you know, you're going to be lounging around in your pajamas all day, not having showered, or you're going to be not wearing makeup if you're a woman or whatever. There's going to be moments like that, whereas in early dating, you can make sure that every single time you see each other, you look like you look your best, right? But I think the point is on a regular basis you should be reminding your partner of your best so that they don't forget how attractive and hot you are and you don't need to, I mean this is, I don't know if you guys have particular thoughts on this but you know this, I'm scared of going for a we in front of you and I never ever let you near me in the room I don't even like it if you can hear it. And obviously there have been moments where you've had to or you have heard me go for a wee or whatever, but I'm just very, very strict about that because I get very nervous. Now someone might say, well, that's ridiculous. You guys have been together for ages. You're engaged. You're in love. It's fine. But I don't know that it is because do they really need to see that much of you? Do you really need to see that part of me?

I I'm with you on that. I think couples have very different Rules on those things, but I always feel having some defined boundaries on just like if it's bathroom and toilet stuff and things like that.

Right.

It just once you cross too many there is a thing of you're taking away all form of mystery and all form of we are still what's the word? I don't know if it's separate It's not like we're creating so much mystery, but it's something about like there's parts of you that I don't see. And, and the thing is even the same where you say like you both like just do things where you change environment, you dress up, you go out. All those things you just start to not just see it as this is just my cozy couch buddy and I know all their dirty habits and everything else. It just kind of like Take something.

Do you know what I'm a big believer in?

Go on.

Get, get ready either at different times or in different bathrooms when you're going on a date together, if you live together.

Right.

Because there's, and this isn't always practical. So take it what I'm saying with a pinch of salt. But I do think, I believe in the logic of it, that when you go on a date with someone in early dating, you are just showing up, and I mean this not towards any gender, I mean to each other, you're just showing up to the end result. But you're not showing up to the process. And when we are in a long-term relationship with someone, we become kind of intruding or constantly on the process. And so you never really get that before and after effect. You know, it's like you can get, you can be getting ready for a date with your partner. And by the end of it, you kind of get to dinner and you can realize you've forgotten at any point to tell them they look gorgeous. But the reason you didn't is because there was no reveal. They seamlessly sort of changed. It's a bit like you don't notice yourself getting taller when you grow up. You know, you, if your partner is getting ready to you next to you the whole time, you're sort of not, you're not realizing that they're changing and glowing and doing their makeup or putting on their, their great suit or whatever. You're not really noticing those steps when you see a man sort of putting on his socks and like awkwardly trying to shuffle his, that's definitely going to.

Be some TikTok woman's ick, is that what I mean?

You know what I mean?

Putting on his socks.

But you're not seeing the guy showing up. looking like James Bond out of nowhere, you're seeing James Bond sort of awkwardly adjusting his boxers under his trousers before he tucks his shirt in. And like, that's not part of that attraction, you know, the contrast that creates attraction is like, you were in your pajamas, I clicked my fingers and all of a sudden it's like, boom, there you are. and I think that that can almost be a metaphor for relationships in general, is that when you're so close to process all the time, when you're so close to every moment, every iteration, every bathroom break, every. Then you're no longer getting the different versions of this person that. That are the way that the rest of the world sees them, which I also think is why Occasionally getting to a party together or even just a public place, looking, both of you looking your best, and remembering in that moment that there are people staring at your partner who have no idea or care for any of the things that could be the ick. But just see this hot person that they would go home with is a very powerful thing because by watching people's reaction to your partner, you remember what your own reaction to your partner would have been in that moment.

Yeah.

And that reacquaints you with it and it reacquaints you with a mild sense of, albeit in a potentially safe environment in a relationship, it reacquaints you with a mild sense of danger. and of, oh, you know, there's other people that would want this person. And I'm reminded of that now. There's a slight competitive spirit that comes in with that and so on. So a reclamation that comes in with that, you know, after a night out in public. So all of those things, I think, are really, really important and interesting long term.

Let's say in long term, like things going back to ick, like things that will kill a relationship. I totally agree with everything you're saying, and I think it's really important to not let the attraction die in that way. When there's things that, like, break a relationship, is it. Is it not more like we have to look at the repeated things we're doing that are like, say it might be someone just feels like, oh, this person i'm with there. There was something really great about them when I met. but they've like lost all their drive and now they just don't, they just don't ever go for anything or they don't ever like surprise you or they don't give a crap about their fashion sense and they're happy to be a slob and in a way it's like a slow decline to something breaks and then there's like ick, I'm not attracted to this person anymore because like I've lost an amount of respect or desire or something. for them or like they used to have something great and now they're just like nitpicky and complainy and negative or whatever.

Well, maybe it's my turn to say something slightly controversial. But I think if our partner has become that, we have to take some responsibility for that. In other words, why in the beginning of dating or a relationship does a person try? why are they ambitious? Why do they go out of their way to look their best? Because they're motivated to and they're motivated to because we haven't decided we want them. And they're trying to, they're trying to make us certain that they're great and that we want them and At a certain point, it's not that it's our fault that someone stops trying. I wouldn't dare go into that territory. But if someone no longer thinks there's any point in trying, somewhere along the way, we've made life too easy on them. Somewhere along the way, we've failed to communicate. that they're actually, these things are noticed or that it's not pleasing or interesting to us or that them in their pajamas all day, every day is not, is, it becomes monotonous and that we've missed seeing them at their best. We have to take some responsibility for that. There's a lot of people in relationships that complain about things their partners are doing. But if you ask them, have you in a meaningful way had these conversations? They haven't because they're challenging conversations to have. But if you want to become challenging again, you have to be willing to have those kinds of challenging conversations instead of just complaining they never do this anymore. And in the process we enable we enable them and they no longer feel like there are any. Well, why would I bother? That's on, by the way, they need to own that because that's just a lazy, awful mindset for a relationship on their part. But we need to own our part and say, have I actually communicated to someone that, hey, this isn't. This isn't what I signed up for. And do they feel. a sense of we're taking charge in our lives and we expect the same of them in certain ways. There are always graces in relationships. There are always compromises. There are always things that, you know, we all, I'm not saying, you know, all of us in life, we go through difficult stages. We go through difficult chapters. Who among us isn't going to put on some weight at some point in our life? even if it's circumstantial and it's down to the fact that we're working so hard or that we are struggling with stress or that we're struggling with the death of someone in our life or who among us is not going to go through times of increased anxiety or self-doubt or insecurity. You know, these are human things. We want to be in a relationship where these things are not just tolerated but held with compassion. But if someone is chronically either disinterested or chronically uncaring or not putting any attention into being their best or looking their best or communicating at their best, and we ignore that for too long, then we have enabled that behavior. And. And the thing that, you know, if you want someone to be motivated the way they were when. When you started dating, they have to still feel like there are Stakes there in the beginning of dating. We feel like there are real Stakes. You might not want me. You might not like me. You don't. You know, you may not realize how great I am. I want to show you how great I am. you can't then get into a relationship and remove all the stakes, which isn't the same as threatening the relationship every time you don't like something. But it does mean that there has to be consequences over time to someone no longer trying or showing up as their best.

Yeah.

Especially if you are, which, by the way, always, if you think about it, necessitates the leadership. of you have to start by showing up the way you're expecting them to show up. Otherwise, you have no credibility in, you have no leverage in asking for what you need or want from a person. To just jump back for a moment before we kind of start to wrap this episode up. And I'm really interested in people's opinions on all of this. I think this is gonna, people will have some really interesting ways of looking at this. so email us what you think of this. What's maybe a story you have about this, maybe a story of a turnaround from an ick. You know, is there anything that used to be an ick for you, and now you kind of don't see it that way anymore, or you have much more compassion towards that thing, or even maybe, like, something completely turned around where you. It used to be an ick, and now, like, there's a person you're with where you actually are fond of it. maybe there are situations in a long-term relationship where you can relate to the things that I've just said. Maybe you're struggling with a certain itch in early dating. Email us and let us know podcast@matthewhussy.com and by the way, before we continue with our last point, I want to remind everybody that if you are not a member of the Love Life Club, that is the place where we get to coach people in real time. If you've ever asked you know, how do I get coaching from Matthew or Stephen? That is the place where we do it, the Love Life Club. And we have different coaching sessions every month. It's like going to a gym, not just for your love life, but for your life in general and your confidence. If you're really taking your personal growth seriously this year and you want an ongoing way of doing that through mentoring and coaching, and we also bring in experts as well with Dr. Ramani, we've had Guy Winch, we've got Ed Mylett coming up. We have Lisa Bilyeu. I mean, we have, we've had Esther Perel. We have so many amazing people coming through the Love Life Club and we get exclusive access to them as a small group of people. I promise you, you are missing out if you're not part of this, especially if these things are important to you in your life right now and you love the podcast. This is graduating from the podcast. to a much more immersive level of coaching. Go to askmh.com right now before you do anything else, open it up in a browser because there is a 14-day free trial offer where you can join the Love Life Club for 14 days, give it a try, join us on some of our live coaching sessions. Maybe you'll even join me live and get coached by me, or you can send in your questions and I'll answer some of them. And you can join us for a couple of the special guest experts. and maybe even a masterclass because we have various masterclasses coming up as well. We have one on confidence coming up for anyone who just directly wants to work on their confidence, not just for their love life, but for every part of their life. All of this is coming down the pipeline with the Love Life Club. It's an amazing place to be and you can join for a 14-day free trial by going to askmh.com Well, the last question I wanted to ask is, what do you both think would be reasonable advice or insight to give to people in the early stages of dating if they feel like they're writing people off quite quickly based on the icks?

I think my general view is that people are not open-minded enough at the very beginning of things. And you know, I've said the phrase repeatedly, be open-minded about who you meet and be very, very selective about who you invest time and emotion in. I think when you're meeting anyone new, at first you should be very open because you probably have a lot of biases and people will surprise you and it's better to park them aside. First date, look for fun connection. Do I fundamentally think they're a decent person? If you can kind of answer those, it's like, cool, okay, let's see what there. You can always get judgmental later. You can always get judgmental on date two or three if you're not into it. So, yeah, I think in general, you want to cast the net a bit wider earlier on and then reduce the funnel later. But you know, I mean these quirky things are like, I mean these minor ones are obviously very silly. I guess if there's something you are just like, oh he goes hunting on the weekends and I'm really against hunting. Yeah fine, like it's probably gonna be a constant issue. But you know, minor things, I would at first be looking for like fun. Do I think they're a good person? Would I like spend another hour with them?

Them. Audrey, what would you say in the same kind of situation? And what would you say to women, especially, who find themselves disappointed by getting the ick, especially when they're sort of that they want to fall for someone, they want to be attracted, they want to find someone they really connect with, but then something comes up that kind of turns them off and they find themselves you know, we kind of could look at people who get the ick as judgmental or closed-minded or whatever, and some of that may be true, but it's also tremendously disappointing, right? When we find that we want to fall in love and yet these things that feel primitive that we have no control over seem to just happen.

Yeah, well, I think that's a really, really important point because I think it is a really disappointing occurrence for both.

People.

Because you're not dating, setting out to get the ick, you're dating to find love, as you say.

So.

I think something really important to think about, and I just thought this throughout the podcast as we were speaking, and I touched on it earlier as well, is you tend to feel judgment and contempt towards other people when you feel it in yourself or when you're not secure in yourself. I think the most the most comfortable and secure you are in yourself, the most you are able to give grace to other people's shortcomings and other people's endosyncreties that you might not be gelling with at first. And I think the sign of somebody who is very comfortable in themselves is the sign of somebody who allows people to just be who they are. That doesn't mean that people won't necessarily be right for them, but I think that tends to be a blanket rule. in terms of the ick, which I think, as I said earlier, is why when you're younger, you maybe feel it more because you are more insecure when you're younger, you are less sure of who you are. So I think that's the first thing I would like to say. The second thing is I think sometimes there might be patterns which are kind of toxic patterns around why we get the ick. So for instance, do I get the ick in a toxic way? Do I get the ick when people are showing signs of themselves which are just actually qualities that would make a good partner, whether that's they're being open or they're being themselves and they're being comfortable, they're being vulnerable, they're being kind. Are those the kinds of things that are putting you off? And I think if the answer is yes, it's important to identify those patterns and then you can then look to correct them if you try and see where they come from and you know you ask yourself the right questions as to why do I feel repulsed by this behavior? Why do I not feel attracted by that behavior? And that's a good place to start. And I think it means that over time you might just be giving more and more grace to people. And it probably wouldn't be an instantaneous thing, but it might mean that, you know, after three years of doing that, you will just naturally be more compassionate towards other people and their traits.

I agree. And I think it's always a healthy exercise. to take a moment to remind yourself what the opposite of those things has felt like in your past.

Yeah.

Because everyone has, on some level, felt the opposite of those things. When someone's not attentive, when they're not open, when they're not vulnerable, when they're not showing us kindness, when they're not showing interest in us. we have felt the pain of those things. So it's really important when you're sort of, it's almost like when you find yourself complaining about something not being exciting enough because, and you, and it doesn't come from a place of this person being boring. It comes from a place of you feeling too safe. Ask yourself or remind yourself what was it like? when I didn't feel safe? Was I happy? What was it like when someone was toxic? What was it like when someone wasn't vulnerable at all or when they weren't communicative? And it allows us to just start viewing these things in a much more beautiful light. I also would say a good reframe is to take something that you're terrified of being judged for something that you're terrified of someone making you feel insecure about, whether it's a physical feature or a way that you do something or could be your coordination, it could be anything. But something that it would be so painful for you if someone rejected you on that basis. And then look at the basis on which you find yourself rejecting other people.

Because.

That creates a much more compassionate lens on those things. Well, this has been lovely. I think this has been a really interesting conversation. There's been amazing points from you, Stephen. I think that was some really, really interesting material from you, Audrey. I'm really excited to hear the listener responses. I want to finish Stephen by you reading out an email that has come into podcast@matthewhussie.

Is this the email where people are saying nice things about me? Because I think that's the one we should read.

I don't know if that's the one we're doing now or not. Stephen's deciding, so we'll see. But I I do want to say before you all listen to this and before you all go reminder to go and grab your early bird ticket for the virtual retreat over at mHVirtuAlretreat.com and I also want to give everyone the opportunity if your love life is a priority right now and you want just a nice little freebie from us go to 3SecretsToLove.com because there's a free guide there on three specific habits that you can start employing in your life today. They're very easy, they're very simple to do, but the compounding effects of these three habits will lead to a love life that is full of opportunity. So go to 3SecretsToLove.com to go and download that guide for free right now. Okay, Stephen, what are our listeners saying?

Well, we have one email, Matt, from Kate, who says, thank you for your North Star podcast. This was the solo episode you did recently. And she said, just wanted to say I really enjoyed the podcast. I recently listened to one about finding your North Star. I particularly like the part where Matthew was discussing how if we look for the good in people, we can find it through interacting with that intention. He talked about his own experience with this. It made me think of a book I've recently loved, Humankind: A Hopeful History. I just wanted to say I really appreciate how the podcast encourages us to look for the best in each other and seek to understand one another. Awesome message for our times. Keep up the awesome work to all of you at the Love Life podcast. Kate.

I love that. That's so nice.

There's also one that feels like that email feels I feel like that's something that makes us feel seen.

Yeah, absolutely. It's so lovely.

Well, that's it for today. Thank you so much, all of you. Harry, for running the tech on this. Harry Huss, everybody. Stephen, thank you, sir, for always showing up with such perspicacity.

Thank you, my perspicacious pickles, peaches, puddings, plums. pairs.

I can't believe I set him up for that alliteration unintentionally. That was Steve. Was that a. That was more than a quadruple alliteration.

Yeah.

I mean, I got all the peas and more where that came from.

Incredible. Just incredible. What do you call a. What's the word for when there's five is if you won't say a quintuple.

Yeah.

Quintuple.

Yeah.

Alliteration.

Quintuple.

Incredible. Audrey, thank you for joining us.

Thank you. It's been so fun.

Lovely little treat. And we'll see you all in the next episode of Love Life. Thanks, guys.