Why Aren’t You More Attracted To Him? + What Makes Bad Boys Sexy

Welcome back to another Love Life podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, Stephen Jameson and Audrey, affectionately known as Jams.

Hi everyone.

We are the Jams.

Lovely to be back. It's fall, everybody.

Oh my God, Matt has been obsessed with fall. I'm looking at a pumpkin spice Candle of sorts. He is 70% pumpkin spice latte.

I'm just saying, I meant to light that candle. There was a lighter right here, Jameson. Where is that? Where's that lighter? I meant that that was sort of how I was going to ritualistically kick off this podcast was by lighting a candle, which is pumpkin pecan waffle flavored.

So over here, Matt has turned into a basic fall bitch.

I'm glad you said it, Audrey, so I didn't have to.

I don't know why you're having a go. You're gonna reap all the benefits of this over the next month. Do you know what it is? I'm just excited. I'm excited about this. I love the full season. I don't care if it's obvious to say, it is as obvious as saying you love pizza. But I do, and I get really excited about, I get excited about all the Halloween-y type stuff. I don't even watch scary movies anymore at this point in my life, but on Halloween I want to. I'm excited to take you to Halloween Horror Nights at Universal. I just get, I just really like it. And you're crazy if you don't think I'm gonna put you through every fall related activity there is over the next 30 days.

I mean, first of all, you're calling it fall, which would make your English brethren recoil in horror because we call it autumn.

So if I was in England, I would say autumn, but I am in America, so I don't wanna be that obnoxious person saying autumn.

Secondly, are we gonna see you in a lot of chunky knitwear and snuggly jumpers on Instagram posing with candles and pumpkins?

I did read an article in Timeout about people in LA pretending it's fall for them when it's just really not. And so you've got people in tank tops who are wearing Uggs because they just want to somehow participate. But there's really nothing that resembles fall in this part of the country.

That's definitely, definitely mad right now.

I was gonna say, like you said, it's just like liking pizza, like everybody likes it. I think it is very popular, but I do wonder why fall is so popular. Because pizza just tastes delicious. Fall on the surface of it, leaves are dying, things are falling off the tree, it's getting colder.

Why do we like it so much?

It's colorful. It's cozy. I think it's because we like change. And in LA, everyone's trying to get that. They're trying to tap into that change.

Everything gets so similar here. Well, speaking of change, we had a bunch of comments from people basically in different places. I saw one on Instagram. I saw one come to us by email. I saw a couple more dotted around elsewhere from people saying, love the podcast, but I don't like how long it takes to get to the, to the meat of it, to the topic.

Here we go.

And it was quite hurtful, wasn't it?

Yeah, but we listened. We listened, which is, which is why. And which brings me on to my, my next comment. We have a question today.

Great.

We're three minutes in already.

Get to the bloody he cares about autumn or fall or whatever it is. Okay, we've had the harmless banter.

Get on with it. I'm actually, okay, I can't wait to actually connect this to the main topic because I thought it is actually weirdly connected, but I know what the main topic is.

But go on, Andre.

Did you? I'll circle it back around later on.

Did we ruin the segue? No, it's good. It is perfect. Well, we had a question that came through from one of our Love Life members. Our Love Life Club members, I should say, which is our, what would you call the Love Life Club?

An exclusive club for exclusive people who want exclusive advice. Okay, that's the level, it's the next level from the podcast. But we have members every month. They get to ask us questions. We answer those questions. And we had a particularly good one that you called out before today's Love Life members session and you were like, this is a good question for us to answer. And it turned out on the members webinar it was. So we thought, you know what? We won't be able to recapitulate everything that happened in the members session, but we can do a part of it by talking about our answer to this question.

Absolutely, and I think it's a very, very relatable subject. So, Matthew, if you'd like to do the honors.

So this is from Jackie, one of our Love Life members. She says, I need help with my brain. I'm talking to an amazing guy, but my problem is I don't feel as attracted to him as people I've dated in the past. I'm embarrassed to admit, but I'm just realizing I'm usually drawn to projects or bad boys. This guy has already worked on many of his life's issues. We have great conversations and dates. How do I get over missing the prospect of a project boyfriend? Maybe what I thought was the spark. So I want to, I suppose, make a distinction because I think the project boyfriend is not always the same as the bad boy, but they can be the same thing. I think of the project as someone who is a bit of a mess, has things going on in their life that is a bit all over the place, you know, needs a mum, needs help, needs a therapist, needs a coach, needs someone to kind of get their life in order and to help them do that. I think of the bad boy as someone who doesn't need help. The bad boy has his needs taken care of. He's really good at that. He's really good at getting his needs taken care of. In fact, Esther Perel once said to me, Matt, the reason the bad boy is so attractive is because he's good at taking care of his own needs. And when you know a guy takes care of his own needs, you don't need to worry about it, and you don't need to play mum to him, and then you can worry about getting your own needs met, which I thought was a kind of interesting Point that.

Is there is there a distinction actually for the Steven category, which is actually both of these things?

Steve, are you a bad boy and a project? I mean, that's rude on two fronts.

Or very attractive on two fronts, you could say.

I'm sort of like a sexy, dangerous.

Version of Chris Pratt. Exactly. You know, Chris Pratt, you know, Chris Pratt was in Parks and Rec and.

He plays Andy Dwyer. He's like a project.

Yeah, he's definitely a project.

Yeah.

And then by Jurassic World, he's a bad boy.

Well, that's sort of true. But he's, no, but he's like a good guy in Jurassic World. It makes him so great. Just like, in the beginning, I would say in the beginning of Guardians of the Galaxy, he's a bad boy. Yeah. Right. He's like just going from galaxy to galaxy doing whatever the hell he wants. Like just different woman on the ship every night. It's like, Steve, you're Andy Dwyer from Parks and Rec. meets, was he called in Guardians of the Galaxy?

Star-Lord or Peter Quill? But you're implying a lot of things about me that people are going to infer now that are patently not true. But sure.

It was Jameson really. I was just piggybacking on.

Yeah, you're right. Let's keep some mystery to Steve too, just so he just hits all the categories of super attractive.

Well, I think there, and then there of course, you know, there are kind of, bad boys who you see as a project, like, I'm gonna turn this guy around because he's got it all wrong. He's got life all wrong. He, you know, he's, he's focused on all the wrong things and he doesn't get it yet. But I could make him so happy. And so you see him as a project in that respect. But I, I think both are a thing, the bad boy and the project. Now, I think it's worth looking at why these things are attractive to begin with. And, and then I want to talk about what Jackie said about I need help with my brain, because I think that was phrased really appropriately because Jackie doesn't want to be attracted to these people. She's saying, she's not saying it with like any sense of kind of patting herself on the back. She's really saying, I don't want to do this anymore. I have a what seems like a really great guy in front of me. We have a great conversation. We have great dates. Why can't I be attracted to this guy? What is wrong with my brain? And so I want to finish this topic with what could be some practical ways to start rewiring our brain for the right things, which I think is what a lot of people want, because they're not doing this consciously and they're not doing it on purpose. It feels like it's happening to them. So why is the project attractive? That sort of slightly chaotic person who's not got their life together and has issues and In any part of life, that kind of person is probably someone who's gonna make us feel better about ourselves. We get to find someone who in some ways is not threatening, right? Because if you're super confident and you have it all together and your life, you've really figured out your life and you've figured out what you want and you've worked on yourself and your issues, There's a good chance you're gonna make me feel really bad about myself. You're gonna make me feel like I haven't got it all together. There's something about you that is gonna feel a bit intimidating. And so I might go in search of other people who haven't got it together because then I get to be the mentor. I get to be the one doing the lecturing. I get to teach you how to live a great life. And that, by the way, also gives me a sense of purpose. if I'm with you and you need me for that, I have purpose in the relationship. I know what my worth is in my in the relationship. My worth is helping you get your shit together. But if you're with someone who's secure and has their shit together, then you have to ask yourself, okay, my worth isn't going to come from being able to fix this person that this person doesn't need me for that. My worth, God forbid, is just going to have to come from me being a great person in my own right.

It also puts more pressure on you, doesn't it? To like, if you're dating someone where, you know, they're looking for something real and they've got their shit together and they're kind of like, okay, well, I'm looking for my person to complete my life or to, you know, add to my life. You really have to bring something quite real and substantial to the table to make that person happy. Whereas if you're dating someone who's already in a deficit, all you have to do is just help him out of their issues.

I think that the male equivalent is dating someone who's broke. Because you as a guy get to feel like you're enough just by paying for things. And what intimidates a lot of men about women who earn the same or more than them is that I am. You've removed one of my key weapons for how I feel worthy.

That's really interesting. What about the bad boy?

Well, the bad boy gives you great highs, and we, in any part of our life, get attracted to things that give us a high.

Oh, and we'll give you a bloody great hire.

So you've already. You've accepted this. Like, it's taken you a good five minutes to accept the label.

I'm just making things easy for the audience.

Yeah, for those that are only listening and they don't see the video, Steve has actually changed into a leather jacket.

And his hair's slicked back. He's gone for a real classic sort of... Is that a motorcycle in the background?

Fonsi, baby boy, that motorcycle. It's very on the nose. I thought you were gonna say John Travolta again.

Yeah, John Travolta. I thought he was gonna make an.

Appearance in another podcast. Why are you leaning up against that old car?

I should have smoked a cigarette instead of a pipe. A pipe was a bad choice. But you get the idea. Really mixed messages. Well, the bad boy, look, firstly, let's get the kind of that psychological idea out of the way of, I, you know, if we grew up without that love from a parent figure, and it always felt like it was out of reach, and we never felt like we got the love that we needed from them or the attention that we needed from them, then we can go through our whole lives trying to create a scenario that's equivalent to that where it has a different ending. I'll be worthy if I can finally get that person's attention. And so we find the equivalent of that parent figure in our life today, and we try to sort of get the catharsis that we never had growing up with that person. And part of breaking free from that is retraining ourselves to stop looking for catharsis. in places where we're never going to find it. I don't want to make this the kind of tangent we go on, but I think as a quick aside, one of the problems that we have when we're trying to close those loops is that we've made our parents God and we've never really dropped that concept. So the reason we're trying to get catharsis with that father figure and whoever their equivalent is in our lives later on is because we've never divorced ourselves from the idea that that person was God and was someone that was worth pleasing and getting that catharsis with. I think part of growing up is realizing that your parents aren't God and seeing them as the kind of fragile, in some cases, deeply flawed, feeble, dare I say in some people's cases, even pathetic people that they are and, and not anymore creating this, this deified status for them. Because when you just see them as, oh, if I encountered this person in normal life, this wouldn't be an impressive person to me, or this wouldn't be someone that I would be choosing to associate with, or this wouldn't be someone I would ever kind of want to please. And yet, because I've deified them as a parent figure from an early age. I've never removed that status from them. I do think a huge part of just getting over it is removing that status from that person, bringing them right down to earth and seeing them the way that anyone else in life who wasn't their child would see them. Before we continue with this discussion in the episode, which I love, I love this topic and I know so many of you are going to be helped by what's coming. I wanted to talk to you about some of the things that we have here to offer you that if you really love my advice, if you enjoy following along with the advice, the philosophy, and you want to apply more of it to improve your life can help you. Starting with something free, because who doesn't like free stuff? We have a guide that helps anyone out there who currently is in a situation with someone who is stringing them along, won't commit, doesn't bring up having a relationship, continues in the casual phase, and there doesn't seem to be any progress except you don't want to give up this person just yet. Well, we have a guide that shows you exactly what you can do in a situation like this. so that you can see if this person is ever going to have potential or not. It's simple, it's effective, and you can download it at www.leavelimbo.com Now, if you want to do the pinnacle of what we have this year in November from the 11th to the 13th, I am holding our three-day virtual retreat. This is three days of immersive coaching with me and my team. All of us are there, all of the jams are there, plus many more from the team, from the family. And we work on the deepest issues that we have together, the things that are holding us back in life, the things that are preventing us from being our most confident selves, the patterns that keep us sabotaging, that keep pushing us down paths we don't wanna go down and away from the paths that would ultimately make us happy and bring us the life we want. It's the deepest work you can do with us, and I would recommend everybody join us for those three days. I don't believe there is a better way that you can spend your money for changes that will last a lifetime. To find out more, go to mhvirtualretreat.com where you can book a phone call with one of my two retreat specialists who'll talk to you about your challenges right now, the things you're going through, what's holding you back and how this program may be able to help. That is at mhvirtualretreat.com Now back to the episode. The other thing about the bad boy figure is that the way that they act, the whether it's through kind of indifference, whether it's that they're spontaneous or impulsive. They give you these big highs of, you know, a really exciting weekend, but then disappearing and then picking back up again.

Or you have a big fight and it's volatile.

There's a volatility to it, but it's like this person knows what they want, and today it's me, and that's so exciting, but tomorrow it's something else, and, oh, no, it's not me. I need them, you know, I want them to be thinking about me. There's a volatility. to all of that.

And a mystery.

And a mystery.

I think the mystery is a huge part of it. I think the unknown is so much more alluring than the story that's already told in front of us. And someone who's more available is way more likely to be open about who they truly are versus painting a picture of a Mystique.

That is an amazing point. That is so, so true, because it is. It's so easy to, do you know what I've thought this about models a lot? Like male and female, you know, like the male rock star who's like, you kind of like, he says very little in interviews, you know what I mean? Just doesn't say a lot, just like someone asks him something and they're like, yeah, you know, it's a mumble answer. And they didn't really say much. But it's like the less they say, the better. Because you can project onto them whatever you want. You don't quite know what they're thinking. Man a few words. And then in pictures, they're very pouty, so you don't even have the vulnerability of a smile a lot of the time. Lots of pouty pictures, lots of like just mystery, mystery, mystery, mystery. And It's so easy. It's such an easy way to be mysterious.

It's so true actually with models, you see pictures and then you happen to see a video of them doing something and you go, oh, I didn't realize you sounded like that. But it's not there's nothing anything wrong with them. It's more that they suddenly become a real person and it's just instantly less attractive than, you know, A mysterious static image.

Yeah, and that's so much of that cool is like a cultivated cool. And the people, by the way, that a lot of famous people are really, really, really good at cultivating that cool. Like, that is their superpower. And it's one of the reasons that, like, social media has been such a disaster for so many celebrities. It's because they're so, when you really, like, hear them talk about something, Sometimes you're like, oh, you're an idiot.

Twitter has ruined Hollywood.

Yeah.

If you had Leo live tweeting Titanic on HBO, I don't think it would go that well.

Right, right.

The mystique is broken.

Well, Leo, he's a good example. Who knows who... It's so hard to know what he thinks because you see so little of him. And anyone who's in a position where you don't hear a lot from them, you can project onto them what you wanna project onto them. So the bad boy is usually someone who is able to cultivate that mystique. There's no vulnerability to it, you know, unless it's a sort of movie vulnerability, like, I had a rough time growing up, you know? And then you're like, that just adds to the mystique of it.

You're so damaged.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

For me, for me, I think it's-.

You- don't know what I've been through.

Kind of, yeah. For me, I think it's helpful to look at the bad boy through the lens of status in general, or this whole email. Because when you're younger, a bad boy is quite a good surrogate for status, or at least it's almost like the bully at school. Like, the more arrogant you are when you're young, the more confident you can seem. And as you get older, that sort of, that kind of spell is just broken, I think, more easily. You can see through it like, oh, no, they're not confident, they're just arrogant.

Yeah, when you're young, acting arrogant is like a cheat code when you're a young teenager for, like, you start acting cocky and suddenly girls notice you more. And it's like, at that age, it's like a cheat code.

I think I would put an argument forward to say that, one of the reasons we're attracted to the bad boy is almost something that we haven't quite grown out of. I do think there's actually a lot of truth to that because I think, you know, you, when you tend to look at the evolution of people, it is something that you're supposed to grow out of at some point, usually because you've been, you know, hurt too many times by that one thing. But you grow out of it and suddenly you go, I don't see the value in it like I used to.

Well, I, I think to Stephen's point, when he said that, I almost, I thought that arrogant kind of way of being still works on the 40 year old teenager. Right.

And that's why when we, there's times when we've been coaching people over the years, when someone says, you know, of a certain age, says, I like bad boys, I'm like, what are you, 15? Like, when someone is, it's like you're a grown person with a job and you own a business and, you know, you have a whole life and you're talking about, like, A bad boy. It is like there's a stage of maturity that one surely has to pass where you're like someone acting cocky and arrogant.

I mean, but look at the guys who spend their life trying to get the cheerleader.

Exactly. I was going to say, I completely disagree. All you need is somebody who taps into your insecurity and makes you feel like if you could only get that person, then suddenly you would feel better about yourself. And you're right back to being a teenager chasing the unavailable person in some way, shape or form.

But this is what I guess my point is, is the very first part of the question is I need help with my brain. Where it's like, that is the instinct. And it's like hardwired. And the reason I bring up like the status game of it is because so much of status is happening completely under the hood. Like we're not aware of it all the time. There's a, he's a bad boy, he's kind of out of reach. And that out of reachness is completely adding to the value that you're putting to him. And her brain, her instinct is just saying like, oh, I'm alive, I'm interested, I'm totally... The wheels are turning and I want to put energy into this.

I have a troublesome at times relationship with food, which I'm fortunate in the sense that I train hard.

Not the pumpkin spice again.

Do you know he had two the other day? He, at 4 p.m. I was away and this is what happens when I'm away. He drove to Starbucks at 4 p.m.

In his pajamas.

Can I just say, as you're telling this story, this was a story I told to Audrey in confidence, of course.

Go on.

In the privacy of our home.

Admit it, admit it. It was 4 a.m., wasn't it, Audrey?

It was 4 p.m. and he drove to Starbucks and he had a Pumpkin spice latte.

He doesn't drink it. Actually, I'll have you know, it was.

A pumpkin cream cold brew. Forgive me. He had a pumpkin cream cold brew and sat in Starbucks and he said it was so good.

And you know what, Steve? Do you know what the saddest thing about it was? Go on. Middle of the day Saturday, Audrey's away for the weekend. So obviously, party time, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and I'm like, go on, then. Let's have a big one. Big weekend.

Yeah, it's like risky business.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I'm sat around daytime Saturday, not really sure what to do, but I bet enjoying that. Enjoying that. I'm just. Just got nothing to do. I've intentionally planned not a single thing, and. And the most ridiculous part about it is Starbucks doesn't. feel like a destination. Do you know what I mean? You go to Starbucks on your way somewhere. You're at an airport, you're driving somewhere. I decided I really wanted a pumpkin cream cold brew. And so I just got in the car to drive 10 minutes to Starbucks.

Yeah, in LA traffic.

And just sit there and drink it. like a maniac. So, you know, so go on. Keep telling the story that I told you just between us that wasn't designed for podcast. Go on.

Well, he said to me that it was so good. He then went on to get a second pumpkin.

I went straight back to the counter.

Really filling up the hours of the day.

Yeah.

Oh, you didn't even go to a different one. You actually, you had the, the shamelessness to just go straight back to the counter.

And I did actually, it did occur to me that the person behind the counter, like, I had, I felt like there was a moment of.

Okay. Really treating yourself. Did they serve you again?

Or are they like, oh, sorry, we can't over serve.

I sort of said it like ultra casually, as if I was like, almost as if like, and now I'm picking.

Up one for my girlfriend. Right. Otherwise it's just, I don't think they're.

Allowed to over serve like that at Starbucks. They probably tell people. I didn't like, I had a sip of it there, but then I went.

And like drank, I went to the car. Oh, no. You went into the server and went, oh, she's got an ass for one now.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I feel bad not getting one for the misses. the meme of Ben Affleck smoking a cigarette out the back door, that's just Matthew with a coffee. Second pumpkin spice latte.

So as I was saying, I have a relationship with food sometimes that I would liken to the attraction to the bad boy.

Okay.

Where it comes down to anytime I'm eating badly is because I'm very much connected to the highs of what it's like to indulge, what it's like to cheat. And I'm not connected to how good I feel when I'm eating well. And whenever I'm in a great rhythm of eating well and taking care of.

Myself.

I am very connected to how good it feels. to eat well. I wake up in the morning, feel better, feel fresher, have more energy. I feel better during the day. You know, my mood is better. I don't feel as groggy. I'm connected to that feeling. And so I do believe that for people in their love lives, when they continue to date these people that ultimately they experience highs with, but then they experience real hangovers. with, and it does make them feel bad. They're not connected to how good it feels to be with someone who brings you peace. They're just connected to the thrill of being with someone who constantly has you on this adrenaline ride and constantly is like playing with your dopamine. You know, if someone doesn't text you and you're like, oh, I just really want to. I really want this person to like me, and they haven't texted me in days, and then you get a from them, that's like a big hit. That's like an immediate hit of dopamine. You don't get that same thing with someone who makes you feel safe, right? That's someone who's creating that effect because they're withdrawing love and then all of a sudden they're giving it back to you.

And when they withdraw love, they raise their value.

That too.

Because they don't come across like they're desperate for your attention and they're quite happy to basically dip in and out when suits them, which I think you know, yeah. Lowers your value and raises theirs.

Exactly. What I. So I would say a big part of this is we have to take responsibility for raising the value of Peace in our lives, for raising the value of stability, for raising the value of feeling good over being on that roller coaster. If what's most valuable to you is being on the roller coaster all the time, you'll pay the price for that because you can't always be on the exciting part. You will have the corresponding lows.

You can't spend all day drinking pumpkin spice brew.

Now, I like all of these analogies.

Because.

What if pizza is delicious and what if a roller coaster is fun?

Well, this is where I think we can say something that doesn't get said enough, or I feel is very, I don't know where I hear this. Pizza is delicious. And I'm never gonna, unless someone, you know, starts genuinely, like, snipping away at my brain, I am never not gonna find pizza delicious.

And I think we should say actually at this point is like bad boys can be fun. Like is that just always bad that to be impulsive and to do something spontaneous and to have fun like they're fun.

Yes, and I think that there are certain qualities whether it's boldness or spontaneity, someone knowing what they want, the kind of person who's got that like self-assuredness in the bedroom or that there is something about that that can be very, very compelling. What I think we do is we first we make everything too simple. Like we make it binary. There's these exciting bad boy types and then there's everybody else who bores me. And I actually think that's a failure of our imagination. I don't think everyone else is boring. I agree.

I think that's more reflective of the person telling that story because that cannot be true of people.

Right. Not all nice guys who are very kind outwardly are boring in the bedroom. Some of them are complete freaks. Not everyone who is calm or quiet is meek. There are really different types of people that if you actually take the time to know them become exciting in all sorts of other ways. When you realize, when you're with someone and you realize that this quiet individual is a warrior like this, they've been through something or they've dealt with things in their life or their strength of mind, the way they attack things, you realize, like, oh, this person's, this person's, like, one of the strongest people I've ever met. You, you start to, we start to have some humility about what we're, what the, the ridiculous Simplicity of the labels we've given people in the past. And you start to realize the, like, what people are actually capable of. I honestly would liken it to, there's like a, I think you can walk into a jiu-jitsu gym and you see certain people that you kind of, there's a sweetness to them or they're not as tall as the next guy. They look pretty slim and not threatening. And then you, in jiu-jitsu you call it rolling, which is the jiu-jitsu version of fighting. you roll with that person and you're like, oh my God, this person's a beast. And it humbles you because you realize how surprising people can be. And I think it's a very one-dimensional view we have that we think that just because this person's outwardly been a bit cocky or a bit, you know, difficult to get hold of, a bit hard to get or whatever, we think that's like the ultimate measure of how exciting they are. That to me is so unbelievably narrow-minded and it doesn't actually take account of any of the things that are really not just interesting about people, but any of the things that make people unbelievably strong. Any of the people that are actually tough. Any of the people that are actually like, have. Have something about them or interesting or adventurous. Yes. Now, look, I wanna. I wanna make a point here that, to me, is Ultra relevant because I think it's one of the ways that we actually end up bringing this on ourselves a little bit. All of us tend to go into romantic situations craving. A feeling of safety, right? We want to feel like we're wanted. We want to feel like someone's not going to leave us. We want to neutralize the threats. None of us like rejection. And so we tend to go into dating scenarios looking for a feeling of safety. And we get that in all different ways. We try to gauge whether someone likes us, by asking them questions that might elicit that. We tell them that we want them to speak to us often in whatever way we find is appropriate to say that. We want to see them as much as possible. We might demonstrate insecurity when they go out with their friends or when they do things that make us, that almost represent a threat. We tried to, you know, we kind of, at the most extreme, we kind of want to keep them indoors in their pajamas with us snuggled up in front of a movie. You know, we don't want to go to places with them where we feel threatened. I'm not saying this is true of everybody at the extremes, but we all have that sense of, I want to know I'm liked, that this person isn't going anywhere, and that I'm safe here. And so we all have our patterns and our ways of realizing safety. But what's interesting is that the quote bad boy or the person who's actually going to be bad for you, which I would define as the person who just doesn't care about you and is selfish and is going to do whatever they want to do and behave as though your needs don't matter. When you try to get safety with them, They're not going to give it to you. They're just going to keep doing their thing and you're going to feel unsafe. And that's going to feel all sorts of things at once. It's going to make them seem scarce. It's going to make you want to keep trying harder to achieve a feeling of safety. It's at times going to make them feel exciting. Other times it's going to make you feel awful. when you think of them, but in that your brain is still doing all of this processing about them. And in a weird way, that's still a form of investment because you're thinking about them all the time. And then of course, when they give you a little bit of attention, it feels amazing because you haven't had it the rest of the time. So my point is, when you try to round the edges of that person, of the dangerous person, they won't, it won't work. They'll keep all of their edges, and that keeps you trying. It's like a Rubik's cube that you can't get the colors in all the same side. So you just keep trying and trying and trying and trying and trying and trying. The person who actually wants to please, when you try to round their edges and do all these things that make you feel safe, stay there. Don't do that. Don't go out with that person. Don't text that person. Be in the house. Don't go out with your friends. Don't go on that bachelor party. Don't do this. Don't do that. When you do that, they're actually more likely to go, okay, if that's gonna make you feel better, I'll do that. And so our edges, that person's edges get rounded. And at a certain point, it's like you're new to that person. and then you don't like what you've created because you no longer feel any sense of danger. And actually a part of you, when you feel safe, you create, you create, you crave danger, right? Why is it, it's Halloween? Why is it that during the Halloween season, we like to go and watch a scary movie? We know that psychologically the What a scary movie does is it gives us a thrill when experienced from a place of safety. No one actually wants to be in that scenario. No one wants to be running away from a murderer in the house. But when we watch a scary movie, we get to experience it from the safety of our couch. Well, in a relationship, the moment we feel safe, we want to experience a little danger. And to different degrees. Some people, by the way, are just very, very, very happy living a very, very safe life and simple and don't need any of that. That's fine. But if you're that person, you better find someone who's the same. Because if you represent nonstop ultimate safety with no sense of mystery or danger anywhere at any point, and I'm talking psychologically here, of course, and you date someone who actually does want that, who does need a little bit of that, and you only represent the opposite, that person's gonna get bored. So you can be only valuing safety if you're with someone else who only values safety. But a lot of people, most people, are somewhere on the spectrum of needing a bit of both. Right? In a marriage, we definitely probably want more safety than danger and mystery, but we're still human and we still need a little bit of the other. So what happens when we crave safety, especially if we're insecure? The interesting part is the more insecure we are, the more we try and round someone's edges because we do not want them going anywhere. So we start telling them everything that we want them to do. There isn't We're not telling them how to get us most attracted. We're telling them how to make us feel most safe. And I think that too many guys, and I'm not talking about the bad boys here, too many good guys who want to please listen to everything a woman says and take it at face value.

Wow. You're gonna get away with saying that?

Steve, I made this point earlier that you know how women always say, Matt, you should coach guys. It's the guys that need coaching. Like, you should go and talk to them. I know what they mean by that is that you should round up all the bad boys in the world in one place and tell them how to behave. Right. But if I actually started coaching guys tomorrow, what I'd rather do is round up all of the guys who are good guys who actually have morals and good intentions and want to please and say, she doesn't mean everything she says. Hmm. If you listen to absolutely everything she says, she might get bored. There are certain things that she says she wants, and what she really means is, I want to feel safe. But she doesn't mean, stop doing all of those things altogether. And when we want to please someone, we're likely, we're liable to let them round all their edges, all of our edges, until the point where they're bored. So it's like, imagine this, Steve, someone is saying with the bad boy, someone goes, I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. And they never feel safe. So they keep trying with the guy that's trying to please. She's, she says, I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. And he goes, okay. I'll do that. Okay, I'll do that. Okay, I'll do that. And so she says, it goes like this. I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. I'm bored. There is a moment where it switches over and she experiences total safety and then boredom. And she says, man, I think I just need like a, I don't know, I need like the bad boy, you know, that person who's going to keep me on my toes. And that, by the way, wasn't desirable when she didn't feel safe.

I think to that point with this person, what was her name again?

Jackie.

Jackie, who wrote in that question. You know, a sort of good test might be to ask herself, would she suddenly feel more drawn to this person if he started playing games, pulling away, spending ages to reply, or just, you know, generally kind of started acting a bit more like the kind of typical bad boy, would she at that point feel more drawn to him? Because I think that's quite telling, isn't it?

It's a great litmus test. Because then you know, am I really attracted to the person or am I attracted to the roller coaster they put me on?

Yes. And is his value to me based on whether or not I can have him or whether or not he's elusive to me? Meaning, does the value of the guys she's gone after thus far lie in the fact that she could never quite get them? And is suddenly his value plummeting because he is not proving to be a challenge in that way? But the fact of the matter is it takes one behavior for him to be a challenge. And does that make sense?

Well, Martin Snow, my boxing coach once said to me, You always have to ask yourself, are you in love with their presence or are you in love with their absence?

Oh, damn.

I love that. Absolutely love that.

I would like, as a practical piece of advice, to round off this part of the conversation to offer two different thoughts. One is, to instead of constantly relying on someone to come along, read your mind and push all of your buttons, start throwing out more clues as to what your buttons are and what turns you on, what gets you attracted. Give people a roadmap, especially if it seems like a. If this is like the guy that you think is a great person, it's not like you're just fundamentally, you find them unattractive. No, they're a great person, they're attractive, they've got a lot going for them, they're good to you. Start giving that person the roadmap to what turns you on. If they did something tonight that you found particularly attractive and it gave you that little bit of like, oh, that got me going. Yeah, I hadn't seen that side of you before. Instead of letting it just be an accident, Tell that person, that was hot when you did that. That I've not seen that side of you before. That was super hot. Because what that person hears is, oh, do that more. Or if they're wearing something that gets you going, sometimes that person could be wearing a thing that you know is like it pushes one of your buttons. You don't necessarily know why. It's just like that particular kind of shirt on someone that gets you going. Tell that person, Let them know and don't just let them know, Hey, you look really nice in that shirt. No, let them know that was that shirt tonight. Turn me on. Let them know because what you need to do is give, here are my buttons. Here's the roadmap to how to turn me on. I think that we have to take ownership of helping people know how to turn us on. instead of expecting people to just be mind readers in all of that. So that's the first thing. The second thing is we have to be brave enough to encourage situations that make us feel a little threatened sometimes. and that is a very hard thing to do when we're feeling insecure. And by the way, if we always chase the bad boys, it's usually because we're insecure. So it's actually gonna, this isn't gonna be an easy thing for people to do in this situation. When we feel insecure and we tend to try to feel safe, we shut down the very things that someone might do that might maintain a sense of danger. So, you know, a simple one is someone's going out with their boys one night and there's some part of you that is like, oh, you know, and you make a fuss of it and you try to kind of, you make that person text you all night. 'Cause you're like, text me when you get there and da-da-da-da and like, you're like trying to feel safety. But actually allowing someone, a long enough leash, that they could be dangerous.

Is.

Something that may, in some way, it may keep you on your toes a little more. But the prize you get for that is that you still see this person. You still see that there are. I. I mean this all positively. I know it may sound negative, but it's that you perceive that there are still threats out there. you know, it's like there are times where you've been to our local coffee shop and you get hit on when I don't go with you. That's just. I'm not saying every time someone ever hits on you, I need to know about it, because that would sound insecure from your side, right? If, like, every time you were always like, this person hit this. That would sound weird. But the knowledge that when you leave the house without me, stuff like that can happen, that gives you a little bit of that, oh yeah, in case I'd forgotten, other people find her really attractive.

Is that why you wouldn't let me go to the coffee shop on my own this morning? You were like, Wait for me, I'll come. I want to come with you.

I went to the coffee shop with you this morning because I was gonna shower, and then I realized I already showered last night and I didn't smell. So I just went for a pumpkin spice latte. No, Jameson. But no, I, that, but by the way, that's the, I'll be honest with you, that's the difference between me today and me when I was younger. Me when I was younger may have felt too threatened by a situation like that, and it would get under my skin. in a way that then I made myself miserable over. Me today, I see it as a positive thing.

I agree with you, but I think it's easy to make peace with and enjoy and almost see the positive side of if simultaneously you feel unbelievably safe. And I think, you know, we're engaged, I love you, you have nothing to worry about. That much is clear. So, you know that there's no situation where you could, my relationship with you would be at threat just because some external force came in to try and mess that up. So I think, and you know, same for me. So I think it's kind of, it's then easier to sort of enjoy those little thrills.

Right, but by definition, by definition, if you're in a situation where you don't feel safe, you don't need to do this. You know what I mean? Like, if you're. If you're in a situation.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It.

It's true. If you're already going like, oh, God, I feel a bit insecure in this. Like, I. I. You know, I'm. I don't know if this person likes me. I don't know if they really want me. I don't feel safe. You're not who we're talking to because you already. Congratulations. you already have someone that you're into and is on your mind. We're talking to the person that is going, I just, I don't know. I just don't get that feeling with this person that I get with that other person that keeps me on my toes. Well, then help them keep you on your toes. Give them some advice inadvertently on how to make you feel a little bit less safe. And that takes guts. It takes courage because the truth is a lot of people say, I just, I don't know, I just feel a bit like bored or whatever. But you're not actually giving them the long leash that would make you feel a little threatened because you value that safety. And it feels like you'd be handing them power by doing that. And that's what a lot of people do. They they take away all of the edges from someone and then complain about it. And we have to have the guts to say, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna. I know that my pattern is that I either date people who I know I can't get because they're unavailable, and that weirdly feels safe because I just never have them in the first place. So I can chase them and chase them and chase them. And when I don't eventually get them, I can just go, well, I never really had them, and I never really felt like I did. Or I go for someone that I can absolutely control and kind of will be a doormat and they're safe and I can control everything about the situation and then I complain that I'm bored. To me, the solution is find a good human being, tell them how to turn you on, tell them the things that when they do them get you going, and give them enough space and enough ways of being in the world that you actually can experience some of that feeling that you need not all of the time. No one wants to live in that state all of the time, but enough for you to have pizza on a Friday. Let us know what you think of all of this. I'd love to know. What about today's episode resonated with you the most? What did you find most helpful? Were there any parts of this conversation you feel we left out or didn't answer? Email us podcast@matthewhussie.com to tell us either your story or your thoughts on this episode. We would love to read it. Don't forget, you can also leave us a review on iTunes if you're loving the podcast. It really helps us share it with more people when we know what you think about it and you spread that with the world. So if you have two minutes, leave us even a short review on iTunes at the Love Life podcast.

I just want to say before we go, because I think it's a really important thing. You know, when I read that question, the reason I was so drawn to it is because I think it's an unbelievably relatable thing that people go through. and it's really, really hard when you're trying to find love and you almost feel like your instinct is going against what you really want. And it can be really scary to wonder whether you're ever going to grow out of your unhealthy patterns. And I just, I kind of want to say to anybody who's listening that, you know, any steps you take forward in the right direction have disproportionate positive effects on the results you end up getting. and I think anybody who has had, there's so many people who are in healthy and happy relationships now who had unhealthy patterns for years and thought they'd never grow out of them and thought that they would never be able to find their person. And they do because there is someone out there who's going to be the right balance of everything. And it's just about always treading in the right direction. So I just, I think that's a really important message to leave with people with because I think it's unbelievably true and it can just feel very disheartening when you're in it.

Very well said. Well, thank you everybody and we look forward to speaking to you all again in the next episode of Love Life.