Why Being Disliked Is Key to Finding Real Love

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Hello. Where are we, Matthew?

We're shooting today from England in a little studio we've never used before.

And it's very hot.

I love when we land in Florida for our retreat and we find ourselves like that freezing cold air con that they have in buildings in Florida where it's just a tundra. The moment you walk into a building.

Oh, the Florida one is like a fridge, like going into a restaurant. It's like a fridge.

It's lovely. It's the best. Well, we are talking today about a subject that I think is going to appeal to many, many people, especially the people pleasers out there, the people who feel like they spend too much time worrying about what others think. Whether it's your friends, whether it's your family, whether it's the person you just bought your coffee from, or whether it's the person that you are dating right now. So many of us have spent, and I relate to this, so much time in their lives preoccupied with the thoughts of other people. How much of our time is spent thinking about what others think of us. And of course, the ultimate fear that so many of us have is the fear of being disliked. That I have done something to make myself unlikable, to make someone unless upset with me, to offend someone, or to just make them think that I'm not that great. And when that happens, it only heightens the preoccupation. You know, you come away from having sent someone a text and then they don't text you back for a little while and all of a sudden you think, oh my God, I did it, didn't I? I said the wrong thing. Now they hate me. Or now they think I'm an idiot. Now they think I'm unattractive. Or we come away from a conversation saying, I said the wrong thing. That person doesn't like me anymore. Now, you know, I shouldn't have said that. I made myself look needy or desperate. Or maybe I just made myself, you know, I said something that I think maybe offended that person. And now for the rest of the day or the rest of the week, I'm going to ruminate about this relationship where I think that I've somehow blown it with this person or if someone.

Unfollows you on Instagram, you take offense to that.

I don't, because I think it's really healthy to just unfollow people that you no longer are connected to. You know, I used to have people that I met when I was, like, 21, traveling, and I just used to follow their lives, and I was like, why am I following this person's life? I'm never gonna see you again. And I, you know, like, would have met that person for, like, one day. And it was just. For some reason, it just lingered on my Instagram. So I think it's healthy to, like, you know, unfollow people that, you know you're never gonna continue a friendship with. But I think it's quite, like, it's quite hurtful.

So you're quite minimalist with your followers.

I. Yeah, take a minimalist approach.

They all unfollow her and you get.

No, you're saying you aren't. She's saying she unfollows them.

I unfollow people, but also, I am minimalist. But I need to go and do a call because I think I've, like, accrued a lot of people.

She treats it like she's cleaning out a cupboard.

You don't want to see people's lives that you met. Like, like, just. Why?

I. Yeah, I. I understand that. I think because of the nature of my Instagram, I wouldn't know if anyone had unfollowed me, and I assume that no one knows if I've unfollowed them. I sort of apply the same mindset where I go. I, they. Why would anyone know? I remember going through a breakup and unfollowing a bunch of people in a certain friendship group because they would still be posting pictures about my ex. And I one day learned this was multiple years later that they had been offended by the fact that I had unfollowed them. Firstly, I was unaware that they would even know. That's how naive I was to Instagram. I was like, they wouldn't know if I've unfollowed them. Why is anyone paying attention to whether I follow them or not? They did know, and they were offended. And I thought, God, how. How wrong. We get it a lot of the time as well, that, you know, they took it personally that I had unfollowed them, like they had done something wrong, when, in fact, it had literally. It couldn't have had less to do with them. It was literally just a strategy not to see the ex that I had at that time.

And that is lesson number one of being disliked. Sometimes you think someone dislikes you because of you and actually it's because of them, something they're going through or they don't dislike you at all. They just, you know, don't have time. Yes, Lesson number one. What other lessons do we have?

Well, we've done it.

We've done the podcast.

No, we haven't. We've got plenty of lessons. That was just your random everyone online. My tangent, this is your meta lesson of not worrying about being disliked is being able to say your bit and then shut down the episode and not care what anyone thinks of it. No, we have lots of lessons today about this subject because it is super important. And I want to kind of break this down into why we shouldn't worry so much about being disliked and then some practical kind of strategies for how to stop worrying about being disliked. And of course, many people listen to this podcast because they want strategies and information and mindsets that can help them either on the path to finding love or in creating a healthy relationship once they've found love. And so I also want anyone listening to really be able to consciously frame this in terms of not just being, you know, being okay with being disliked in life, but also understanding that there is a real advantage to being disliked when it comes to attraction. That the ability to be disliked makes us more attractive for a whole variety of reasons, some of which we may not even know or suspect. So why don't we perhaps start there with this idea of how being disliked is linked to attraction? What is it about being disliked that can actually make us more attractive?

I think to start, one thing being disliked or being able to be disliked gives you is it shows a kind of bravery, shows a kind of courage and non conformism. Like you're not worrying about how everyone is going to perceive you. And there appears to be a kind of leadership to that. You know, like the person in the party who's not afraid to say like, I think they're stupid and then they explain why or I didn't like the movie and they're able to kind of not conform to the whole group. That kind of shows like a leadership and a fearlessness and I think that's attractive.

There is a way of doing that though, isn't there? There's a kind of way of communicating that you don't necessarily agree with a point being made. There's an, there's a, there's. There's both an elegant and a clumsy way of doing there's kind of a. A way of speaking, you know, disagreement without truly turning people against you. That communicates a lot of value when you do it. You know, I even think sometimes I watch people on, you know, podcasts where when. When you're a guest on someone else's podcast, there's something kind of interesting happens. You want to be in rapport with the person whose home you have stepped into. And so that's how kind of how I see someone else's podcast. It's like you're sort of going into someone else's house and you. There is an instinct to want to be liked. There's an instinct to kind of go along with what's being said. And it took me a long time to. To try to shed that instinct. And I still. There are moments where I catch myself kind of fawning a bit too much or sort of slightly going along with something because I feel like I'm just sort of, you know, in a way, it's like I'm paying someone else the respect of not. I don't want them to seem foolish or. I don't want them to seem like. I don't want to point out where I think they might be wrong.

But.

But. And sometimes people will even say something assumptive about me where they'll say, like, you know, yeah, because, of course, you know, you've been, I don't know, blah, blah, blah, doing this for so long, and that must make you feel like, da, da, da, da. And it's tempting when they say that to go, yeah, no, that's true. And also, even if I didn't agree with the first part, whereas it becomes a kind of skill to go, well, I don't know if it ever really made me feel that, you know, I, you know, it's. It's not necessarily that I relate to that feeling, but what I do think is this. And there's nothing unkind about that way of doing it, but I noticed over time, whenever I saw someone else do that in an interview, I. I respected them more because I realized they had an independence of thought. They didn't feel the need to go along with whatever the interviewer was saying. And it. There's a power that comes with that because all of a sudden, the value that you put on that person changes. They seem like a more powerful person instantly because you go, oh, that. I know. Because we've all been in that situation before. You kind of put yourself there and you go, I know. I might. That. That would have been challenging or that Might have, at one point in my life, made me feel uncomfortable to not agree, even if politely. And I know that I've arrived at a place of being able to do that through some effort. If someone else is able to do that, that must speak to their value. It must speak to their confidence. It must speak to their conviction. It must speak to their ability to. To not be liked by this person and still be okay. And when we see someone else have the ability to not be liked by someone and still be okay, their value goes up in our eyes.

Do you not think that it's a little bit different to being disliked? Because what you've done there is actually not said something disagreeable. You've said something. You've just, you know, use the art of crafting a response in a way that makes a person go. They don't feel slight, they don't feel stupid, they don't feel like. What about when you actually do something or have to do something that makes you like? Because when you guys are saying, obviously like, it makes you more attractive to be disliked, do you actually mean disliked or do you just mean to stand up for yourself?

The ability to be disliked is what makes us attractive.

So, as in the comfort level, Our comfort level of being disliked?

Yeah, because whether you have to do something, like say no to someone on something or whether you politely correct someone on a podcast, in this example, both of those things come from the same core. They both come from a core that is sturdy enough and robust enough and. And independent of value enough to say, I, I'm okay. If this person decides that they don't like me because I've said no, I'm okay. If in this conversation with a person, when I challenge them on something or where I disagree on something or where I don't just go along with what they're saying, I'm okay with the fact that that may break rapport for a time.

Is it like if you call someone out who's always late every time you want to meet up, Is that version of it?

I think anything that risks not being in rapport with someone is a version of being disliked and being okay with being disliked. Because there are so many situations where really what it comes down to is when we're people pleasing all the time, what are we trying to do at? Its. In its essence, we're trying to stay in rapport with people constantly, an unbroken chain of rapport with someone. And when we break that, for people who have a tendency to people please or to fawn, that activates their nervous System. I speak of what I know. I know of what I speak. I should say that that's something I relate to the idea of being out of rapport with someone experiencing either the. What is a genuine confrontation or even just the idea of confrontation, which is what happens in our mind. Right. If I. If I don't agree with you, I'm fearing some form of confrontation, friction, being out of rapport. And that fundamentally makes us feel unsafe.

Well, also, it's really difficult in attraction, because we're talking about it in the context of attraction here. And I think that if you really like somebody, you don't want to do anything to make them go, oh, well, actually, this person in this person isn't the right person for me. So what advice do you have for someone who's in that position? Because I think sometimes it's easier to. I agree with you and everything you're saying, but I think it's a little bit easier to test the waters in. In relationships and dynamics where you don't really care about the outcome as much like, you know, I'm going to. I'm gonna just, you know, what was it you said about the Uber driver where you put your headphones in? Like, I'm okay doing that, and I'm okay with the Uber driver thinking that I'm rude because I'm never gonna see them again because ultimately they're just a stranger and their opinion of me doesn't matter. And in that moment, I'm doing what I want to do. But for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about. In a previous episode, Matt said that how he gets.

You brought this up very much out of context.

The conversation is, he puts his headphones in. But I like it. I respect it. I just can't do that. I feel so, like, you feel that.

You need to talk to someone for the entire drive 100.

I feel obliged. But, like, that's easy enough to test, I think, and to kind of do when it's, you know, an Uber driver that you're never going to see again. What about if it's someone you've gone on a date with or a few dates with and you're like, holy, I love this person, or I really like this person, or, you know, like, they're really, really great and you don't want to ruin it, what then?

Well, I think that there's a false sense of security in that because we. It's not. Being in rapport with someone all the time isn't a route a reliable route to Being liked either. It is a false sense of security. You. One of the principles that I was going to talk about today is this idea that dislike is inevitable. There is no way of being, that avoids being disliked. I remember someone I knew a very, very long time ago who was, and this was, I'm talking like teenager, but I remember this, this poor guy. I look back now and I think how, how insecure this person must have been. But he wasn't one of the unpopular kids. He was kind of in that group of popular kids. But never like a main character, just always someone who said and agreed with everything that the group thought. And if there was a new, like, you know, when you're kids and you have a saying and like, if there was a new saying or a new thing that people said, he instantly adopted it and used it as much, if not more than anybody else. And I just remember his whole, that, that time over a period of years, his whole life was like that. And he wound up being despised for it. There was a contempt. He was still part of the group. And I say this as someone who did. I didn't even necessarily connect with, like, wasn't my group. It was a different, you know, I was kind of straddling different groups in school. But I remember there being a contempt for this person that would leak anytime. There was frustration at the idea that this person represented nothing.

I had no backbone.

Had no backbone. Didn't actually have any, any thoughts about anything, didn't have any convictions about anything, didn't have an independence of thought. And it, it led to his, it led to contempt. And I feel really sorry for him now because it, you know, I look back and I go, that was at the time that was for him, the best way he knew to ingratiate himself into a group that would make him feel like he was part of it. But it actually, the, the people it made him part of it with actually ended up just having contempt.

It's a bit like short term versus long term thinking. You know, if you're at a dinner with someone and you're obsequious to them and you're like, yes, yes, that's amazing. That's great. They might feel like, warm to you in the moment, but I might go away being like they were kind of like sucking up, you know, I mean, they'll feel that instinctively. And longer term, it kind of hurts you.

And what goes with that is you, you actually stop trusting that person because you no longer know what they think. And if I don't know what you actually Think, then I don't trust you. And if you only think what I think, I don't respect you. So now you've lost trust and you've lost respect. And the, the best people will find themselves just gradually losing that desire to be around you. But the worst people will see a person they can manipulate and take advantage of. And that's what happens to so many people in dating, is that they find themselves, you know, people find themselves over and over again in relationships where they feel taken advantage of and never with people that mutually where there's mutual respect and admiration. And that's because usually the people who respect themselves and want to be around someone who is an independent human being will get pushed away by that behavior. When you're people pleasing and just going with the flow constantly in dating and the people who know they can manipulate you will stick around because you're precisely the kind of target they were looking for so that, that you, and again, you will be disliked no matter what. Well, I think one of the mistakes we make in life is we, we are very literal around like I'm never upsetting anybody. I'm constantly making people like me on the surface. And so we think we're not being disliked, but we don't know who never really took a real shine to us because we're that way.

It's a bit like if you're for everyone, you're for no one. It's like brands, right? A lot of brands try and position themselves to say like. And the most eye catching is like, we're for these people. These people are not out people. It's a bit like Nike's a really popular brand, but Nike's kind of unashamedly like with or go getting driven. People who want to get it, you know, all their slogans, it's like, just do it, get at it. They're showing like people achieving goals. And it's like, we're for those people. We're not like a chill, we're not a chill brand. And there's certain brands that are like, we're for people who like luxury and finer things. We're for people who like partying and fun and we're not for those people. And it's kind of, it's like positioning yourself in a way to say like, who are you for and not for.

Well, I want to, I want to run through a few of the. Because that's a, that's a nice, that idea of who am I for and not for is very, very important in life in general and in Choosing a right life partner. Let's go through some of the, some of the frames, some of the mindsets that make that if you have them, you realize being disliked is not only okay, but actually important to be okay with. What's up, guys? I want to tell you about something that is one of the most useful things that Audrey and I use when we are on the road, which we are a lot in hotel rooms wanting some comfort trying to watch our favorite shows that we like to stream and then not being able to because we're in the wrong, the wrong country or the wrong region where that show isn't available. The way that we have got around this so that we can watch our favorite content wherever we are in the world is by having NordVPN. It allows us to switch the region on our phones or our computers so that we can access websites and, and content from any country, no matter where we are. I also realized once I had it that it, it gives me a layer of security that I never had before. I don't know about you. I'm always accessing the Internet on different WI FI networks, from coffee shops all over the world, wherever I go. And I never really understood how unsafe that makes my data. I do mobile banking on the go. I'm constantly looking at sensitive information that makes us susceptible to hackers. People who can see what you're doing, can see the information that you're looking at and it's just a lot more unsafe. NORDVPN is an extra layer of protection from hackers, from people trying to get your information, and from annoying ads that are trying to target you. So whether you're trying to watch your favorite show anywhere in the world or you're trying to make sure that you're protected out there, go and Download NordVPN at nordvpn.com/love life. Because when you go to that specific link, which is our link we got for you, you'll be able to get a two year plan with an extra four months free. And NordVPN offers a 30 day money back guarantee. So go try it for yourself. NORDVPN forward slash Love Life. So that you can get get four extra months for free. I don't want to take credit for these ideas because I've been reading a book lately that I've been really enjoying. I know some of you will want to read this. It's called the Courage to be Disliked. We'll put the book in the show notes. I should have the name of the author in front of Me, but it's by a one or two Japanese authors. It's a huge book in Japan. And then it ended up getting translated and it became a big book in the west, too. But there were a few principles in this book that I found really, really interesting. None of them kind of revolutionary, but. But put really well. And the book, I think we should do a whole other episode on this and the kind of. Some of the principles in the book. But the book is based on Adlerian psychology. A psychologist, Adler was one of the titans of psychology, along with Freud, along with Jung. But he had a very different approach to psychology. And we could talk about that in a different episode, because I think there would be a great episode just to talk about how Adlerian psychology could transform your approach to your life. Because it's extreme, some of it is. It feels quite controversial, especially in relation to a lot of the rhetoric these days around trauma. And I think people will be fascinated by it. So look out for that in a future episode. But for the purposes of this episode, some of the principles that I found really interesting in this book we went through, one of them, dislike is inevitable. The other one was that seeking approval enslaves us, that it surrenders our freedom and it allows other people's values to dictate our life. When we're dating someone and we're seeking approval, we will go along with their pace, for example, or their pace. And how they operate in love and in romance is dictated by their values. Right. They may not value intimacy. So for them, intimacy might be something that they want to happen immediately and casually and with you and with other people all at the same time, like on different nights, and they're just going to hook up and do their thing. So they may not value intimacy. If you go along with hooking up with someone because you feel like that person is impressive, maybe you're even a bit. You have that little feeling of like, they're a bit out of my league. And I just want to be close to them. And if that's what they want to do right now, I don't want to miss the opportunity. Opportunity to get close to this person. And they may not like me if I don't. So. So now what you're doing is in an effort to stay in rapport with this person, which is really what this is. Right? I don't. I'd rather not be this intimate this quickly. But they want to. I don't want to break rapport. So staying in rapport means going at their pace. But now what you're doing is you're allowing someone else's values to dictate your life.

Yeah.

Sooner or later people will realize that we don't have values of our own. So again, now we're back to that. That will be unattractive to that person when they realize that that's what you're doing. And by the way, sometimes it takes people a while to realize that because if we're really good at people pleasing, we won't let them know that this goes against our values. And one day, when we've had enough or when our needs are not being met to such an extent that we're going to burst and we can't take it any longer, all of a sudden we tell them time, all the, the things that have upset us, and they're like, who are you? Like they just met you for the first time because they have no idea anything you've. You haven't let on anything you believe or think until that point. So seeking approval enslaves you. The third is the idea that life tasks are separate. Now let me explain what I mean by life tasks. In Adlerian psychology, your life task is essentially what your opinion is or what you choose to do with your life or how you choose to react to a situation. These things are your life tasks. So it's like if I, if I'm like, I really want to see a movie this weekend and I like to see it with Stephen, my life task is to be courageous enough to, to ask you if you want to go to the cinema this weekend.

Right.

If you react in a negative way to that, or you say no, or you ignore me, my text when I ask you, that's not my life task, that's your life task. How you reacted to my text asking you to go to a movie is your life task. And what Adler suggests, or concludes, I should say, is that so much of our unhappiness comes from taking on other people's life tasks as our own. So when I'm worried about what your reaction is to something I am taking on your life task. My life task is simply to show up in a way I would like to show up in the world. How you react to that is your life task. And the. And being disliked is about separating life tasks. And if you think about it, how many of the questions that we have had over the years are really about trying to take on other people's life tasks? This person ghosted me.

Why do they think that? Why did they change their mind?

Why are they blowing hot and cold?

It's really. There's something quite liberating about that to me, this idea that you can only do your bit and then you just let it go and let it be. I think there's something really interesting in that.

I think it's hugely liberating. There's something so empowering about it.

But what if you feel like you've done the wrong thing?

Well, then your life task is to correct that by doing the right thing, whatever that may be. How they react to you. Doing the right thing is still their life task.

I think the ultimate tell for doing the wrong version of what you're saying is when people say, why would they be like that? You know, when they, like, really want to get to the origin and root. And I'm always like, what? I don't really want to play, like, origin story with someone else's crappy behavior, like, I'm not that interested. But if someone's that interested, like, why would they behave that way? Instead of like, what's my life task in response to that?

I think that's because it's a form of. And I mean this not in a. In a bad way, because I relate to, to being like the person who wants to understand why and. But I think it's a form of manipulation because I think you go, well, if I can understand why, maybe I can change it. Maybe I can influence them in a different direction. If I understand the reason going, like, what's going on here? Then maybe I can, I can change the outcome in, in the direction that I want it to. To go. So I think that's why people do that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it might help for us to jump to because some, some people may be sitting here going, okay, I actually am hearing all of this. I really do want to get better at being capable of being disliked. Again, we are not actively seeking to be disliked. That would be a misunderstanding of what we're saying. It is that we are learning to be okay with being disliked. We are learning that we may want to be liked, but we do not need to be liked.

And more importantly, what I'm getting from everything you guys are saying is your authenticity and being true to yourself is more important than making other people happy.

And by the way, even if you are an inauthentic version of yourself, it will not save you from a life of being disliked. So you may as well be disliked for being the authentic version of yourself that makes you happier than be disliked for pandering and people pleasing and fawning, which is like, you did everything you didn't want to do and you still ended up with a life where you weren't liked. Like that. That would be the worst of all worlds.

Yeah.

And that is the reality that a lot of people do experience the worst of all worlds.

That's like the artist that sells out. But the movie they made wasn't even successful anyway. You make some junk for the money and it didn't even work out. And then it's like you kind of lost both ways.

So how do we actually do this if we're all in agreement that this is a good thing? If everyone out there listening is going, okay, I'm. I want to. I want to go forward in life worrying less about being liked, how can I do that? We are back in the UK right now and we are staying, me and Audrey, in my mum's guest room. And I love my mum's house very much. But I'll tell you what, my mum's guest room does not have the silky bamboo shape sheets that we use from Cozy Earth when we are back in our home in Los Angeles and we haven't been sleeping as well. And there's even been a little bit of beef between me and Audrey on our Instagram stories reflecting to the world the fact that we're not sleeping as well. We use Cozy Earth sheets in our home in la and we sleep so much better. We have committed in the last year to bringing you more of the things that we love, love, and these bed sheets are one of the things that we love. I also, frankly, just love sleeping. Well. I have come to really, really value sleep at this point in my life more than ever. It is one of my pillars of mental health and so anything that helps me sleep better is part of one of the most important parts of my mental health. The Cozy Earth bed sheets are that for us. You can get 40% off off of these sheets@cozyearth.com by using the code Love Life at checkout. We've also been collecting other things from the website because we've been using this code for ourselves too. We got this blanket that's so soft. It's called the Bubble Cuddle blanket. We're actually putting it in our baby's room, which is super cute. So whether it's a gift for yourself or for somebody else, go grab something today@cozyearth.com and don't forget to use the the code Love Life at checkout for an amazing 40% discount. It really is a big discount, which is why me and Audrey have been using it so Much for ourselves. So go check it out. Cozyearth.com now back to the episode. Here are some of the things that the book lays out. And these are, some of these are really fascinating. Some of them that you'll just hear and you'll go, okay, that makes sense. I've heard that before. But in that way it lands differently. Some of these will be a little less intuitive and a bit more surprising. So the first one relating to that idea that life tasks are separate. If we want to move forward in life without being so concerned about being liked, we have to do an effective separation of life tasks. So ask yourself in any given moment, whose task is this? When you find yourself ruminating, whose task is this? Is this my task or theirs?

I'm using that.

It's a good one.

And remember, if what you're worried about is their reaction, their reaction is not your responsibility. That is not your life task. Next, focus on contribution, not recognition. So in communities, one of the challenges is that we want recognition. I want to be recognized for my efforts. I want to be recognized for either, you know, being good at something or for trying hard or for being good looking or for this or for that. I want to be recognized. And most of us go through life wanting to be recognized. And actually what Adler says is this is, this is really the enemy of healthy communities. Because what we think is when we're going out, people pleasing, we think we're making it about everybody else, but actually the eye is what we're making it about all the time. Because really everything I'm doing for you, with you, thinking about you, is really in relation to me. I'm always thinking about what other people want and need and how I can do things for them and so on. And in our mind we go, therefore, I'm always thinking about other people. No, I'm always thinking about myself. I'm always thinking about myself. In this world of people pleasing, it's almost like other people don't actually exist. All that exists is the yearning urge to constantly feel validated or safe or that other people like me. And so what poses the most generous thing that we can be actually ends up being, in this kind of lens, the most egotistical way that we could be. Community, Adler says, is about contribution. What can I actually contribute? Not from a place of can I make someone like me, but from a sincere place of this isn't about me. What can I. What energy or life or impact or generosity can I inject? Or even just fun can I inject for this person or for this community. What can I add to the community? People pleasing, worrying about being liked all the time is a constant form of taking. So focus on contribution, not recognition. Drop the need to please, which is something we've been talking about. But the important part of this is act according to your own principles. And in order to do that, we have to actually have defined what our principles are.

That's what I was going to ask you. If you have spent a really, really long time people pleasing and bending yourself to other people in order to be liked, how do you even know what you want and what you like and who you are and like? How do you even get to the bottom of that?

Strangely, I think part of this actually involves getting out of the mode of looking at the way other people are and what you admire about other people. And when we're worrying about being liked or and certainly when we're worried about not being enough, when we see other people in the way they are and we admire aspects of them, it's not a pure kind of admiration. What happens is we admire something about someone and then we wish we were more of that. And in other words, admiration does not live in a pure and loving space. Admiration lives completely in the world of competition. And it's always a way. Admiration is instantaneously, simultaneously a way of admiring someone else and admonishing ourselves for ways that we're not enough.

Is it not sometimes a beacon for what your values are?

It can be. Recognizing what is great about someone else can make us. It can be a road to self improvement because we might say I like that about that person. And that's something I could be a little more of myself. So I am going to take that as a kind of cue because I recognize that I like that in that person, because I like that in general. And therefore I want to bring more of that to my own life. That's a route to self development, right? One of the things they talk about in this book for anyone who's joining just now, it's the Courage to Be Disliked is the book that we're talking about. He talks about the difference between inferiority and an inferiority complex. Inferiority is simply where we recognize that there's an area we would like to improve. Improve that we could be better in. In an inferiority complex is when we feel that we cannot be that way. And that because we cannot be that way, we'll never be enough or we'll never be able to get what we want. So inferiority in the context of Adlerian psychology is not A dirty word only when it becomes a complex. So what I would. What you're talking about, I would describe as inferiority. In that sense, in the positive sense that I see something that calls my attention to something I want to be more of. But I think that a lot of the time in life, we look at who other people are and what they stand for, and we kind of use it as a way to tell ourselves that we're not enough and we can never be like that. Like, I. I sometimes see people who are just extremely funny, and I'm like, I'm not that guy.

Yeah, you are.

I sometimes am.

Yeah.

I'm not saying I'm pretty funny. I'm not saying I don't have a good.

Very witty. Which is a.

But, you know, like, if you watch Bill Burr in. In conversation with someone, he's funny every five seconds. I'm sure he's not like that when he's sitting, having a cigar with his friends in, you know, off camera somewhere.

But, like, I love how that's, like, how you just think Bill Burr spends his.

I'm pretty sure it is how he.

Spends his time, just smoking cigars with.

His friends, watching football.

No, but if, you know Bill Burr, you probably hear that probably is how he spends. I don't know if he smokes cigars anymore, but he certainly used to. But the. He's funny constantly. There's a level of speed of thinking when he's going back and forth with someone that is a result of probably some genetics of the way his brain works, a lifetime of practicing and honing that skill. And so the idea that, like, that's. I'm gonna be that way today or tomorrow is a fantasy.

It's also not to go down a rabbit hole, but I think it's also where your focus has been. Because the more your focus is on funny things, for instance, the funnier you are, because then you're obsessed with funny things. Whereas, you know, if your focus is on, I don't know, business or is on, I don't know, whatever your job, whatever it is you do, then you're gonna, like, whatever, wherever your energy is pointed at, that's the thing that's gonna grow.

And that's exactly where I'm going here.

Yeah, you're always gonna be inferior in certain areas. You can't be.

Yes.

The best at everything.

And so in a way, we have to recognize that at a certain point in life, our superpowers will emerge from a fundamental acceptance of where our natural kind of strengths are. But Also where our heart and mind takes us. It's not been a preoccupation for me to be funny my whole life. I'm not suggesting I could be as funny as great comedians, but that's not my, that's not been a natural draw for me in any case. So my, my draw has always been towards like, sincerity and conversations that are deep. And, you know, I'm truly moved by when I can have a conversation that helps someone or relieves them of pains or thought and suffering that they're going through. So that's where I've been led. And a huge part of not acting according to our own principles is that we've never just gotten in touch with who we are and what our where we're drawn. And I want to, I want to go to the next principle because this one is going to. This one, I think is a really interesting way of treating that competition that I've been talking about that I've never heard it put this way before and I find it very helpful. Guys, if you are loving our conversation, but you wish that we would address your specific situation on the podcast right now, maybe you're wishing that I could help you with a specific conversation you're having or you just want some insight on how to, to approach someone you see every day. I created Matthew AI for exactly this purpose. This is my digital mind that you can be coached by having it in your pocket 247 anytime you need. You can try it for free and if you love it, you can actually get it unlimited for just $7 for your entire first month. All of this you you can find@askmh.com and remember, you can ask Matthew AI anything from what a message means to what you should say. Back to a message to am I overthinking this situation? Can you calm me down? And it gives you real time, personalized advice based on everything I've taught over the last two decades. It is wildly affordable, it is discreet, and it is insanely helpful. It gives you a level of tailored contextual advice that previously was only ever available to people I worked with one on one. It is honestly remarkable. I am so proud of this product and it has helped over 100,000 different users at this point. So I feel confident it will do the same for you. Go over to askmh.com and try it for free or access it for unlimited amounts of coaching for just 7 $7 right now. They talk about the idea of progress being a football field that everyone is on. You, me, everyone in the world. We're all on this level playing field and the progress that we make on that field is only in relation to whether we're a bit further than we were before. It's not made in relation to anyone else. No one on this field is above or below anyone else. Everyone's on exactly the same level and we're all making progress together as individuals. As individuals.

I love that. That's so. That's such an. That's like the ultimate, like, you're only ever in competition with yourself framework. But like, I really like.

But wait, I'm. I'm breaking rapport now because I'm trying to get my head around what. So the visualization is everyone is on a playing field. Is everyone is a visualization that everyone's on a playing field. And what, like when one person moves forward, everyone like.

No, that when anyone moves forward, they're making progress in relation to themselves. Yeah, right. They're only making progress in relation to where they were yesterday. They're only comparing themselves with where they were. But what they're not doing is their progress doesn't elevate them above anyone else.

They're not as suddenly in the stands.

Exactly right. Everyone. Everyone's the same level playing.

You're the one individually getting better, stagnating, getting worse, whatever.

The way he puts it is, relationships are horizontal, not vertical. They don't operate on a vertical axis. It's all horizontal. So when you do that, you eliminate competition.

I think this is really powerful and helpful for people who are looking for love or maybe even in relationships and are feeling like they're with somebody who maybe is out of their league or just a feeling a little bit insecure with that person. This idea that you're not. Actually, I think this is really, really useful for that person.

Yeah. Because so many people get into relationships, especially if they're in a relationship with someone who they think is impressive or high status or, you know, has a lot going for them and they immediately start making those comparisons.

I think so much dating now, people, it's like so competitive even between the people dating. People are really like comparing numbers. You're this height. Here's I've got this money. So that means who's above who and. And it, you know, it can feel very much like people are always looking at. Oh, no, they're, they're two points above me. So I've got to like fight harder to win them.

And the interesting thing is when you no longer buy into that way of thinking, when you see it as a level field, and you're all just moving horizontally along completely changes your personal power. Because all of a sudden you can celebrate everyone's wins from a completely pure place. You can admire how funny someone is, how witty someone is, how, you know, how brilliant their mind is, how much they've achieved, how good looking someone. You can admire these things. What stops us admiring people is feeling we're in competition with them. And when you no longer feel you're in competition with them, you can step out of that and just admire people. And you also don't feel you're less than. And the irony of that is when people see you and they see that you're not in any way threatened or intimidated by the people around you, that you celebrate all of that and that it doesn't diminish your value, they start looking at you as a very interesting person.

I really hope for anyone listening who still who's able to, to make it, I really hope that they come to the retreat because everything you're talking about to me requires the kind of relationship with yourself and the kind of the ability to really connect and say like what do, what do I as an individual need and deserve and how do I give that to myself and how do I support myself and how do I, you know, not to sound trite, but how do I really love myself and, and kind of believe myself to be worthy and, and encourage myself along the way, even if I'm not where I need to be? And that's exactly what the retreat program is for anyone who hasn't been, anyone who's been noticed already. But I just really hope anyone listening who is resonating with this, I think would get so much out of it.

I 100 agree. And I always think when you hear something and you go like, oh my God, this is actually working for me.

This is what I need.

This is what I need. Follow that feeling. So if anyone, by the way, does want to follow that feeling to Miami to be with us for the retreat in October, or virtually or virtually, because we have virtual tickets as well where you can watch it from home, the tickets are still available@mhretreat.com and the last thing I want to say about all of this is that we have to accept emotional discomfort. An enormous part of being capable of being disliked in life is actually accepting emotional discomfort, that it won't just come easy and that that's okay, that it requires courage. And it's been said of Adlerian psychology that Adlerian psychology is the psycho is a psychology of courage. It requires courage to sit in the emotional discomfort we feel when we break rapport, when we have a boundary with someone, when we say no. When we say no, I'd like to do it this way instead. Or no, I don't think that. But here's what I do think. It requires courage. But that courage I believe, and this isn't the reason to do it, but I do believe that the byproduct of that courage is that is rewarded with far greater attraction from other people and you being a far more magnetic person in life.

If you guys like this subject or you feel like we've missed anything out.

By the way, please email us podcasty.com.

We love reading stole my punchline. He stole my punchline.

I'm sorry. You know, but dealing with that is really your life task, not mine.

Exactly. You're stealing my life task podcast. Matthew. Hussey.com is the email. Please send us an email. Let us know what you think of this subject, whether you feel like we've missed anything, you know, what parts resonated with you.

And we love reading our emails.

We do.

So do.

Speaking of which.

Seamless.

Let's read a couple of things that have been sent in. Here are some things that were said about episode 308, how to know when to walk away kindling. One said, how someone thinks is more important than what someone thinks. Yes. So quoting one of the principles in that episode that we don't need to agree on everything in life. I mean, pretty on theme for this episode, but when you're thinking about compatibility, how someone thinks is often more important than what someone thinks.

And the same with how you disagree. How you disagree is more important than that you disagree. If you want to see a great example this, go watch Jerry Seinfeld, Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. When he disagrees, you're still compelled by it, and he's somehow still likable.

Very good.

It's a good model for someone who's good at accepting dislikeability.

But remember, you're on the same pitch as Jerry Seinfeld.

Yeah, it's true.

No, he's great. It's just, he's compelling. But he's also comfortable with saying, like, he totally disagrees with someone.

This same person actually also said during this episode, when empathy just makes the bad relationship last longer than improving the relationship. And when empathy isn't extended back. That's a key sign, of course, referring to the fact that, you know, we said in that episode, empathy can actually be a very dangerous thing in the wrong relationship. It can be weaponized by somebody who has an. I always say when an. When an endless capacity to take meets an endless capacity for empathy, that is extremely dangerous. Episode 301 essential insights for understanding and avoidant. I am married for 50 years to an emotional avoidant husband. He was an absent father, an absent husband, and now an absent grandfather. Unfortunately, our generation didn't divorce. I'm 73 and because of all this, I struggle with mental and physical illness now. These relationships just kill you. Yeah, it's so true. You know, I watch so many people from your generation who, you know, didn't. Firstly, it's not just that they didn't feel they could divorce. They didn't even have a language for these things. You know, we think of these. The language of even. Just the way I can just say avoidance. And we don't really even need to explain it because that term has become so mainstream that most people know what we're talking about. This was not true decades ago. Like, YouTube has made these terms ubiquitous. You know, we now have a generation of people who are sort of like moderately semi fluent on the nature of narcissistic relationships. Why YouTube? Right before Dr. Ramany was out there making narcissism mainstream, this wasn't talked about by people. Dr. Ramany will say, like, she, she. Back in the day when she was first starting out, people didn't even want to talk about it. It was hard for her to really get people to focus on it. So it's, you know, it's so easy to look at people in other gen in previous generations and say, why would they put up with that and why would they stick with that? And, you know, for a lot of people, they don't. They didn't even have the language to articulate what was going on.

Not to mention, did you guys know that this year, 2025 marks 50 years since a woman is allowed to take out a mortgage without her, like, of her own, without her husband or father being attached to it.

Yeah. It's extraordinary.

50 years.

Yeah. Is that nothing?

Wow.

I did not know nothing. Thank you for writing in. And I, you know, our heart goes out to you and I think one thing I will say is you're 73. My great grandmother, our great grandmother lived to the ripe old age of 98.

Great Nan.

Great Nan.

I think she was 99.

99.

I think it was 99.

I think it was 98. We'll ask Mum when we get home. But she was from a generation where it's shocking that she lived that long, given the, you know, the cockney diet she was on for decades. But when you think about that, you realize at 73, you don't know. You could have another two decades or more ahead of you right now. You just don't know. That's a long time. There's still. There's still time for you to make changes in your life and there's still time for you to, you know, maneuver your life in a way that's going to make you a lot happier. Episode 303 how to Know if they have Relationship potential in Early Dating this was the interview we did with Morgan Cutlip. If you haven't listened to that one, it was a really good one. Go back and check it out. That's episode 303. Krishna 335 said as her suggestions for how to know if they have potential in early dating. Limit your emotional investment until it's reciprocated. Be willing to walk away early on rather than latching onto hope. Accept what isn't meant to be, no matter how much it hurts. Don't let your life revolve around the person and rely on yourself for validation, contentment, and happiness, not on someone else. Very well put. Krishna335 thank you so much for spreading your wisdom out there.

And now I want to move us on to Love Lifeline because we have an amazing question.

Very good.

Hi there. I have a question about two conversations. The first would be when to tell someone what I want, which is a serious relationship, and the second conversation, which is when you've started dating somebody, you ask them what the relationship is. And I feel like these two conversations could be mistaken because there's one you want to have early on and the other one you want to have to wait a little bit for. But how do you schedule those two conversations, basically?

So was the, the. The. What was the difference between the two conversations? One was asking what do they want? I think what one's about intentions.

And then the other one is what are we? Right.

Yes. Yeah, that's what I got.

We don't have a name for. For this. For this person. This is a love life member, but she's French, so I think we should call her Francois.

Okay. You know, she's French.

She sounds French.

Okay, fair enough.

Francois.

Well, Francois, Francoise. There is of course a difference between those two questions. And one of them, I think the big difference is that one of them is. Should be posed preservation through the lens of curiosity and conversation and a casual getting to know each other in early dating. The first question implies no stakes, no pressure. There's no decision to be made on anyone's part there. It's just you learning about the other person in the same way that you would learn about what their goals are in their career or for where they'd like to live, or for who they want to get closer to in their life or, you know, how they see the next few years. You're, you know, we take this because. Because the goal that involves us, we think, is the part whether they. Of whether they want a relationship. We suddenly act sheepish when we're talking about that. But actually, if you end up in a relationship with this person, it's all going to involve you. What their career goals are or what they're looking for in their lifestyle or where they want to live or how they want to be with their family. It will all involve you. So if you start worrying about everything that affects you, you might as well get scared asking every single question you ever ask of them. Instead, see it all as one and the same. When I ask people a question about these things, I'm not selling, I'm buying. You get scared when you're selling, but when you're asking these questions, you're buying. You're walking into the store and you're, you're looking for what's right for you. You don't get nervous when you're shopping, do you? No, because you're buying. You're the one making the decision. This isn't about selling. This part is about buying. So take the pressure off yourself in that moment. And then later on, when you have the conversation about, you know, what are we? Which, by the way, I, I never like that. The framing of that conversation around what are we? Because it implies that you don't know and they do so already. It's like, what are we? Is a bit of a. Like I'm giving up my power to ask you what this is instead of taking some ownership of what this is. And it's, by the way, still not a conversation where there's pressure necessarily. It's really just about, are we on the same page about what we're doing here? You know, I'm. I'm here investing and spending time because I like you. And, you know, I. I'm at that point where it wouldn't make sense to me to keep seeing other people. But I don't know if you're there too. And I thought we should probably talk about it just so that we're not, you know, misaligned or on different pages. And ignoring that, that's not a pressure fueled conversation. But it is a conversation that becomes specifically about you and this other person. In the beginning, that conversation is not about you and this other person. It's. You're a. You're a happy, casual shopper with a curiosity and. About what is going on out there and what's going on with this person.

I love that. That's so good.

I think, dare I say, it's that time.

The time we've all been waiting for.

Don't be bereaved. You know that we can't leave without another episode of Steve Sleeves.

Welcome back to Steve Sleeves, everyone. We are gonna have a very simple game today, okay? It's gonna be three questions for both of you. This is cool.

Maz acts like he doesn't like it.

But he loves it sometimes. One of you always plays bad cop. Has Acts like you don't like it.

Well, I just don't like when you say it's gonna be simple because it's almost never simple.

But the audience are very positive. So thank you, audience, for always saying nice things about this segment. So we're gonna play like, Psych Colon Introspection Edition.

I'm glad it's simple.

It is actually quite simple. It's three questions, so.

Sorry.

Like Psych Colon Introspection Edition.

Yes.

Okay.

The best edition. Yes.

It's gonna be about both of you and your likability.

Okay.

So question for both of you. What is one attribute you possess that limits who likes you but you wouldn't give away?

I'm gonna say I don't always try really hard in social situations.

That is true.

No, no, no. But I do try. I'm not.

You're very charming. Like, people were charmed by you, I would say.

I just. I'm not. I know that I could be a bit more like life and soul.

Yeah.

But I'm also so aware that my. I don't have that as an introvert. I don't have the energy to maintain it. And what I've gotten you, what I've become, what I've started to accept, or I suppose over the years I've accepted about myself in my life, is that if I can't maintain it, then it's not. I don't. I don't need to, like, be that for, like, this flame that burns out after 20 minutes and then needs to go home because I'm like, I can't do this. So I. I think more people would like me if I was, like, vivacious, outgoing, like life and soul, you know, I think I would have More people at the end of an evening being like, he was a great guy. But I've recognized about myself that I can't maintain it because it's not authentic to me and therefore I'm not going to. That's just not a game that I'm going to engage in.

I would also say Matt never stays later than he wants to. Matt is happy to leave a party quite early. I'm worse and I feel worse about that. I feel worse about leaving too early. I feel I should stay.

Well then we are a spectrum because you're on one side. Audrey is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. She makes me look like the people pleaser who never goes home.

Yeah. When I'm done, I'm done.

You're done? What's yours, Audrey?

I don't know. I can't think of one. I'm perfect. I don't know. You tell me. What do you think is mine?

What do I think people dislike about you? But is. Is something you've made you're okay with?

Yeah, I have.

I dare I answer this question halfway through your pregnancy. It's not a time when I, you know, I get in trouble very easily right now.

No, that's not true.

Well, I think the going home thing. I think that you're okay going home because you want to go home, even if it will make people dislike you.

Do you think people dislike me for it?

Next question.

Unfollowing people on social media.

Clearly he doesn't have a lot of hang ups about that one.

Who is someone you look up to but would not necessarily get along with?

Oh, that's a good question. I always think of these people and I, and I don't.

I have one, but I can't, I can't say it. I can't say it.

Right.

Can't say names.

Who's someone I look up to but wouldn't necessarily get on with? Do they have to be alive?

Don't have to be alive.

I always felt that I would. I always looked up to Christopher Hitchens and I did. I always suspected that we might not actually like more, to be honest. It's not that I thought we wouldn't get. It's like I just. Part of me thought he might not like me.

Right. Right.

Like I might be just a bit too, you know, I might not be intellectual enough. I might not have read enough books. I might not, you know, I might be too sincere. You know, I just. I might not be edgy enough. I don't know. I really admire him and look up to him, but I don't know if he would have liked. I don't know if the feeling would have been mutual. Yeah, I think it might have been. I think if we spent enough time together, I think he would have gone, oh, I get this guy. I get it. I get this now.

Do you have one, Stephen?

I think it'd probably be some, like, writers or comedians or something where I enjoy their work a lot, but I just think they're too prickly a personality and they seem difficult people. Even. Like, I love the films of Stanley Kubrick, but I'm just like. I don't know if Stanley Kubrick would have got on with me. I don't know.

He's very.

Just a very, like, intense man. Some of these, like, directors and things.

Christopher Nolan, I. I'm a huge fanboy of Christopher Nolan. No idea whether. Whether we'd get on. I once, incidentally, gave the speech where Christopher Nolan was in the audience.

And were you like, Christopher Nolan? I love your work.

I just.

Yeah, I just kept looking his way as if I was giving the speech.

To Christopher Nolan directly to him.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, he. I would have liked if he came up to me afterwards and went. That truly blew me away.

Have you ever acted, Matthew?

You've given me an idea for my next film.

So Audrey can't label hers.

I just don't want to Plato, be mean and say things about. You know what I mean, Like, I don't want to like, so.

Not Plato.

What's Plato?

Plato the philosopher.

Oh, right. I thought. Sorry, I thought you meant. I thought you meant, like, Plato was, like, calling, like, I don't know, putting a card down, saying, I, like, I plead the Fifth.

You know, I think he did seem like a jerk. So. Yeah. Okay. What's one behavior you do that endears people to you but makes you feel a bit icky after you do it?

Oh, well, I used to be, like, quite a big people pleaser, and so I think I used to. I used to, like, feel like sometimes I'd come away from situations being inauthentic, and that would make me feel icky because I was really focused on making sure that. And it wasn't even. It's funny because I actually. It was obviously to make sure people liked me, but it was even a little bit more than that. It's like, I really, really wanted. I've always felt very responsible for other people's feelings. I don't know why. And it's always been something. It's still something. To this day that I carry with people who are close to me, almost like I have feel responsible for how they feel and whether they're okay and stuff. And so in situations where someone isn't okay or I feel like there's, you know, I would go so far out of my way to like make them feel special and, and whatnot, which is a form of people pleasing and it served me obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have been doing it. And that used to make me feel sometimes a bit icky, but I've really worked on that, so I don't really know now.

Matthew, my one I think is if I over, if I like, promise something to someone who I don't really know that well. I don't. Do I actually, to be fair, really stop doing this. But like, if I over, you know, if I'm, if I'm like, you know, yeah, oh, I'll get you the contact details of such and such. Or I'll send you our itinerary for this trip that we do.

Like trying to win them over.

Yeah, like, yeah, with like something that now I'm gonna have to go away and put like effort into and it's gonna take me time and it's like.

And half the time they don't want it. Not as in like with you, but like people that be like, they're like, oh, okay, sure, that sounds nice.

If he does love an over gesture.

Doesn't what I do too though.

Like to someone you don't know that well, you'll say like, oh, I do. And I always think, no, would you still.

Do you still think I do that? Now I feel like I maybe less so now I think I, I, I'm.

More like Larry David about it. It's like, ah, yeah, don't bother. We don't want to do that.

Oh, Larry David. Yeah, I'm more like you.

I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going to show you around. You, you'll be fine.

Yeah. Larry David, you admire and you probably.

I don't think he'd like me.

Well, I just think that you wouldn't like him that much.

I think we wouldn't.

You just wouldn't. You wouldn't want to be in the same room together very long. But you really admire him.

I really like him a lot. I think he's so funny.

No, but I think that the over gesture thing is something I don't, I really make an effort not to do that these days because I'm just like, I catch myself. I'm like, I Can feel it bubbling up like, you know, you're gonna. You're gonna offer something right now, then you're gonna regret this later. Stop, Stop there.

I relate to this.

So don't say it. Because once you've said it, you've made a promise and now it's gonna play on your mind that you haven't kept your promise if you don't send them that email or whatever or that article that you've promised them or something. So I now just, I go, it's okay that I stop there and I stop myself short of the thing that I think is gonna make them like me more if I do it. So.

Yeah, well, that is like Psych Introspection Edition. Thank you so much for playing Steve Sleeves, everyone.

Do you think that there will ever be another edition of this Steve Sleeves that you've put the word edition in front of?

Probably not, right?

Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Well, we did it. We did another episode. Don't forget to try Matthew AI before you go. If this episode has sparked a question for you, if you want to ask how to respond to someone without giving in to your people pleasing tendencies, if you're trying to figure out how to calm yourself down, if you haven't heard from someone for a few hours or days and you don't want to send the wrong message, or if you want Matthew AI to actually help you write a message or have a conversation that you need to to have it is like speaking to me. It will blow your mind if you haven't tried it already. And you can try it@askmh.com for free right now. You can even get your entire first month for just $7, which is like having me coaching you for an entire 30 days for just $7. Go to askmh.com to try it out and we will see you in the next episode. Sa.