Why Intimacy Feels SO Good With the WRONG People – Shan Boodram

Why choose a Sleep number Smart bed.

Can I make my site softer?

Can I make my site firmer?

Can we sleep cooler?

Sleep number does that cools up to.

Eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. And now max out your savings. The more you buy, the more you save on beds, bases and more. Plus get free home delivery on any.

Smart bed with base limited time.

Check it out at a Sleep number store near you or@sleepnumber.com today.

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download Today.

Today's guest is Shan Boodram. She is a certified sex educator, sexologist, TV personality, YouTuber and all round rock star of sex education. Both Audrey and I sat down for this interview where we go in depth on sex in dating. Why people go cold after sex, what to do when you want to wait to have sex and build a connection first but you feel like the other person is in a rush. Sex in relationships, jealousy around sex, jealousy around past sexual partners, how to bring up fantasies. We covered so much ground in this interview and it really was a fantastic conversation. I know you're going to love it. So sit down, grab a notepad and enjoy this conversation with Shan Butrum. We had a few questions that I thought were like a great place to start. Why do I always get ghosted or friend zoned after sex?

Oh, post nut clarity. Long story short, right, for a lot of people, the pursuit of sex is the fun part of it. And there's also studies that will show that people, particularly men, will tend to have sex with people that they don't necessarily think are good romantic partners. So in a traditional sense, women tend to have sex with people that are either equal to their standards or above their standards or whereas men tend to have sex with people who are equal below, way below, like someone that they just met 10 minutes ago. So that's also a bit of it too is that it's not necessarily having sex with you that change their perception of you. It's that they already decided, you know, what capacity you guys can have a connection and then this was just an opportunity to see if you can extend that for, you know, seven to 12 minutes, which is the average time it takes for people to orgasm. But I think that it's important to note that I think the decision is usually had in advance of where this relationship is going to go.

Wow. Oh, my God. I did not expect to give that answer. That is. That's so interesting. So you're saying what you're saying basically is that a lot of it is premeditated in the sense that a lot of men will. Will go into it and go into sex knowing full well they do not want to pursue a relationship with the person. How can you mitigate against that? If you're a woman out there dating and. And you are actually doing that in earnest, trying to find somebody like, how are you supposed to navigate that?

Only have sex with people that you want to have sex with? Sex is not currency. It is not an exchange. Sex is an action. It's a place that you go, hopefully, if you have great sex. It's an action that engages parts of your body that are supposed to give you stimulation and sensation and pleasure. And that's why you do it. You don't do it to get closer with someone. You don't do it to make someone like you more. You don't do it to buy yourself more time with them, because it's a really bad gamble that ends up hurting you and can cost you a lot, of course, too, because there's so much risk associated with it. So I'm very pro casual sex, but I am big on the two things of consent and intent. Consent. Yes, enthusiastically. Yes, we both want to do this. Okay, but why? Because if I want to do it because I want to get closer to you and see if we've got a sexual connection, because I want to then go ahead and forge an emotional one. And you want to do it because you have 40 minutes to spare or because you want. You're horny right now. It's a massive misalignment. So I can still enjoy the feelings that I have with you and then excuse myself to my car and finish myself off if I'm feeling horny. But I also just acknowledge that, like, we want completely different things from this. To me, good sex is not just what happens in the moment. It's the experience that lasts up to three weeks after. And I say three weeks because that's the time you can get an HIV test because you want to make sure that the experience was safe, that there were no unintended consequences. And above all else, that you got to wake up the next morning and like yourself. So I think all of those decisions come into play before you decide to say yes to somebody.

What do you say to people who really feel unable to enjoy sex outside of the context of this is actually going somewhere and. Or they've set that rule for themselves that I can't have sex just for fun. It's not me. I only want to have sex in that setting. What do you say? Because it obviously creates this hot. Now there's a whole thing at play.

Yes.

And someone is trying to, you know, delay it because they feel like, I can't do it now, but I could do it if we'd been seeing each other for X amount of time. And. And I feel safe and I feel like it's actually progressing to something and then I'll be okay to do it. But still, I don't know if you're going to have that reaction of like, we wait two months and then you have sex with me and all of a sudden you're not going to be interested anymore. What's your advice to people who just cannot do what you just said? Because I agree with you. Everything you just said. I'm like, that's a beautiful answer. And then I'm hearing the person who says, I can't do that.

They can't. Wait, what?

They can't. They either can't have sex that doesn't make them feel used if it doesn't go anywhere.

So don't have that sex check.

Or they feel like, I. I only want to have sex in the context of something that is really going somewhere, not something that's casual.

Yes. So I would say just only have sex when you think it's really going somewhere. 1 and 2. Maybe identify why it is, because maybe sex is an act. You've never been invited into it in a way that gives you the physical benefits. So. And sex can mean many different things. Right. So maybe identifying what parts of it. Look, I think, long story short, like, the trick with dating in general is not to like somebody else, but to like yourself. Right. So I have to really set myself up to be in situations where I'm going to be proud of who I am on the other side of that. And that's a benefit to other person as well. Right. You don't want to get the needy version of me, the desperate version of me, the regretful, the shameful version of me. So I have to be really aware of what I can do. So I love the person who's Like, I know myself. Once I have sex with somebody, I have an expectation that things are going to go somewhere emotionally. I get more invested in the person, so I'm only going to actually go there with that person. And I get to define what sex is. Right? Because maybe you're fine with making out. Maybe you're fine with hand play. Maybe you're fine with oral. When I was dating, I knew about myself that once we had penetration, there was for the stupidest reasons possible, right? But I just felt like that person got something on me, which is sexist and societal. And I reflect on that a lot, too, because I've had people that I've loved before and never had sex with them. And I looked at that as, like, a positive for a long time. Like, well, at least they didn't have that. I'm like, on the flip side, there was someone that you really cared about that you had a great connection with that you never really explored that side, and it could have been really fun. So why is it that you feel that, but men often feel the opposite. It's like, well, at least I got sex out of her. So for whatever silly reason, I defined it as, like, I just don't want someone penetrating me if it's not going to be something serious. So I would literally go on dates in advance and be like, I'm really looking forward to having a great time with you. I'm not doing penetration right now. I'm happy to do other things, and I'm probably not going to give you oral sex.

Wait, you would say on a first date?

On a first date. On a first date. Because I don't want the feeling in. In kink culture, everything is a no until you get a yes. Right? So we have these upfront conversations around, what do you like? What do you not like? What kind of positions? What are your yeses? What are your safe words? So that's it. But in vanilla culture, in our everyday heteronormative culture, everything is a yes until you get a no. So I just didn't want to live that way, where I'm like, on a date with somebody, and I'm like, oh, when do I pull out the no? So it's just like, I'm going to just take from the kink culture. Do it right up front. Here's what my boundaries are. Here's what I will and won't do. If you want to participate, then great. And once we start getting into it, I'm not going to feel bad when I draw my boundary. That I told you earlier on that's what it was going to be.

But would you say that when you were already kind of vibing on the date and you knew you were attracted to them or presumably that wasn't your opening line?

No, it wouldn't be my opening line. It would be when the person would try to extend it to something more. Like, if we're finished dinner, we finished our hike, now, like, we're finished whatever the initial activity is and that person's trying to extend it and just being up front of, like, cause I might find you attractive and I may want to make out with you. And like, I don't want to be punished for those things or made to feel guilty about them. And I also don't want somebody doing more for me than they would have done if they knew where my boundary was.

What were. I'm so curious as to the reactions you got. Like, can you give us. Give us, like, the spectrum of reactions that you experienced with that?

The honest truth, the unfortunate truth, is that most men think you're not serious. So they're like, you're saying that now. So sometimes the reaction would be like, that that person would go really far with me, and then I would draw the boundary and then they'd be disappointed.

Yeah, it's like, challenge accepted.

Exactly. But, girl, that's not my problem. And honestly, when that did happen, those people and we did get into that, like, kind of awkward place of like, so we're really not going where I want to go, then maybe, like, no, like, we can transition to doing something else. And most of the time I saw them again after that. I think the vast majority of people, maybe in the moment, were upset, but we did see each other again. But there definitely were people who just disengaged when I was like, this is what my boundary is. And they're like, ah, I. I don't really want to play that game. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, we're not going to want what a win is in this game. It's not going to be the same for us. And I only want to play with people where the wins look the same.

Yeah.

I have a question, Sean, because you strike me as a very confident person who knows what they want, is able to, you know, effectively communicate your boundaries and your standards around those things. A lot of people listening don't relate to that. You know, I think a lot of people struggle to, you know, they have sex with people because they feel like it's the only way to get somebody to like them or because they don't want to say no because they feel awkward to say no or they just don't really know how to have those conversations. They do it in pursuit of avoiding that conversation. What advice would you give in terms of like what, what do you channel inside? Like if you go one layer deeper, like how do you actually get yourself to have those conversations and be super upfront going into it? Like is it something that you pre decide before going on a date that you practice? Is it something like do you have a process around that? Because I think that'd be really useful for people. People get very blindsided in the not blindsided. They get very kind of caught in the moment and like put on the spot and I think they don't know how to respond and then they end up doing things or not saying things because they don't really know how to respond in that moment.

Yeah, such a great question. We were talking Matthew, about the airplanes and the benefit of like living enough life is like you've been the person who's going to Hawaii, who went on the airplane with flip flops and your shorts and like your Marina because you were so excited because you're gonna come right off the plane and like go to the hotel and do stuff and then you sat on a six hour flight freezing and miserable. And so I have had sex with people or I've known people, many of my friends or people that I've worked with. My first book was called Laid and it came out in two 2009, I started writing it in 2005 straight to the point. And so I got stories from tens and thousands of women in particular talking about their sexual experiences in detail. And you, you kind of read enough times that while sometimes it does work out, for the vast majority the statistics are one in six, which is a dice roll. So one in six times where you have casual sex with somebody that doesn't have any indication of it going further or being contained inside of a relationship, does it actually advance to something meaningful? I'm not going to put my hopes, dreams and safety and again my best self on a dice roll. So I have enough times of rolling that dice and not getting that six and crying in the morning, disliking myself, trips to the sexual health clinic alone because I don't have a partner who's going to attend with me. Complete fear. Like every situation you can name of enough times of doing that you realize that that awkward moment where somebody wants to you to give up something that you don't want to give is just not even a tenth as bad as the next morning. So it's just knowing how your future self is going to feel. It's being the best friend to your future self. And I hope for many people, they don't have to experience enough of those bad dice rolls in order to say, okay, let me just logically think, like, what's going to allow me to actually enjoy this connection? What's going to make this sex good for me? Like, that's even the basic one, right? Like someone's offering you sex. And to your point, Matthew, they know that sex is only good when there's an emotional connection tied to it. So why would I have sex that doesn't have that? In hopes that it will? Because if it won't, it would have been bad sex. And why would I want to participate in bad sex? I do a lot of bad stuff. I eat bad food sometimes. You know, I go do I do bad workouts. A lot of things that I do that I don't necessarily enjoy. Sex should be one thing that you do that you really like. And so why not build in those protections for yourself? And, and again, you just, you don't even have to be a different version of yourself, but just think of the past version of yourself and then be kind to the future version of yourself.

Can you talk about just the difficulty that some people have getting a guy to put on a condom when they go home with him?

I'm so glad you asked that. We had somebody send in that question.

Really?

Yes.

Okay. Because that. That's is still to this day.

Yeah.

Not talked about enough. Is this what I've always found, a really strange culture of, like, people going home with each other and having unprotected sex. And I remember doing a campaign years ago for a condom brand where it was all about safe sex. And I saw the statistics on A, how much unprotected sex there is, but B, what the main reasons were. And one of them was just a inability to. Well, one was a kind of machismo culture of men saying, like, I don't want to wear one, or I don't like wearing one, or it feels better when I don't, or whatever. And then it was people sleeping with guys who felt they couldn't voice that or felt didn't feel comfortable for whatever reason, or could you just. I feel like we need to put this to bed like once and for all for people. Because it's just so much can go wrong that it feels like it should be the most talked about thing.

Yes. Okay, Let Me ask a question. But this is a palate cleanse. Palate cleanse question. So try not to answer it. Based on how we just were talking about condoms. But what makes sex good for you or just for most men in general from your research?

Oh my God. I think someone else being into it.

Bingo. Oh, we work together on that. That could have gone wrong. I do that sometimes. I'll set somebody up and they say the opposite thing. I'm like, well, that's fine. But that's not where I was going. Okay, that's fine too. That's not where I was going with this. What makes it sex great for most people, specifically men, is when their partner is into it. So if you frame it like that, like, oh my gosh, like when we have safe sex, I can really let go. Like, I can lean in, I can get nasty. I'm not in my head the whole time. I feel more free to experiment. Like, we can have better sex rather than safer sex. We have better sex when we are protected. Like, and did you know that there's. Some of them are ribbed. There's a flavor one. I want to try that on you because like, oh, this is actually my favorite flavor. I'm going to put it on you, like, make it fun, make it a part of the sexual experience and then make it a reward. Like when we do this, then I will do that. I'm into it more. I'm going to enjoy it more. I'm less in my head, I'm more in the moment. We have better sex when we have safe sex.

I love that. I'm glad, I'm glad we did that. And I. There's a follow on question I have that relates to, I think, a question that a lot of women have, which is, okay, so I am, I don't want to have sex quickly. I want to wait. I want to get to know this person first. I've been burned in the past when I do have sex with people too quickly, when I give in to that pressure. But I'm also conscious of the fact that there might be some kind of timeline on this person's interest. If at some point sex doesn't come and that's different for different people. But there's obviously a shotgun answer which is like, if they can't wait, then that's on them, not you. But I'm wondering if we can just explore almost the nuance of the fact that it's also, there's something valid for other people who go, yeah, but I, I am a grown up who likes sex. If I'm dating someone, I. Part of me assessing whether I even wanna be with them or be in a relationship with them or be exclusive is that I experience that it's not possible, though.

It's not possible for you and me to have good sex when I need emotional security. And you're trying to audition me through sex for emotional security. That doesn't make any sense. Right? Like, it's not going to be the best sex. I will not be able to be present. I will not be able to perform. I will not be able to enjoy myself. So, like, the test that you're setting up does not make sense for who I am. So we can either find other activities and there's tons of ways we can explore. We have sexual chemistry without having sex. But that. That formula is never going to work.

Do you think you can know that someone, like, do you. Do you think that it's fair to say, though, that I don't know someone is right for me until we've had sex? Because that's. That is part of, like, if sex is an extraordinarily important component to you of a relationship, do you think it's fair for someone to be like, I. I surely cannot make my mind up over whether I want a relationship with someone if I haven't experienced that with them. And I'm going to take it out of the kind of the. The religious context, because obviously that's a whole different thing. But if we're just talking outside of religious belief, that question on its face, do you think, is it. Is that a fair thing for someone to say?

Okay, I like where this is going. I want to say that titles in general are never things that you should work towards. It's things that you should already be and be like, oh, look, like we're already in a relationship. Why don't we call it that? So if you're trying to create a pathway to a relationship, I just think that's never the right way. So anybody who's saying, well, I can't decide if a relationship or not until I have sex with you, or somebody who's saying, I can't have sex until I'm in a relationship, like, I'll go back to my example of my story. I regret not having sex with that guy that I loved. You know what I mean? Like, because I was waiting for a title, but the feelings were there. I really enjoyed him. We had an amazing connection. I think we could have really had a wonderful time and moment. And now that I'm, you know, Married with kids. You look, you look back on those banks of times, right? Of like, remember that amazing night we had that great experience? And I robbed myself of that because I was waiting for a title versus a feeling. The feelings were there, but do you.

Think it would have made life just so much more difficult for you and the heartbreak would have been bigger and it would, like, it was a pretty.

Bad heartbreak regardless, you know? So I think that. That maybe in the moment or in the short term, maybe, yeah. But it was pretty sad regardless to see that end. And fortunately, actually, like, I had a really. I got an opportunity to, like, revisit that years later. And then I was like, oh, that thing that I wanted actually didn't. It doesn't make sense for me. And it never would have, but I think it still would have been cool. So that to be said, I think if you just focus less on what the end outcome is and more about, like, what are the feelings that have to be present in order for you to wake up the next day and say, I'm glad I did that. Regardless of what happened next. Right. Like, the. I felt respected, I felt honored. Like, if you created a to feel list, like, here's how I want to feel before sex happens, and if those that answer key is not met, then it's not a match. And if someone's telling you, well, it will be met, if we have sex, then maybe I can be nicer to you. Maybe I can be more responsive to you. Maybe I'll be able to provide more security. Like, that's an absolute not a match. I'm not going to put a gamble on that. Right. So when we're in the flow, we're gonna know. And it may not happen in two months. In two months, I may feel even less certain about you, but I know that I'll continue to be a part of this as long as I'm having fun and you do the same. And let's continue to put boundaries for ourselves. And I always think about boundaries, not necessarily as, like, you can't come here, but instead, like, stay in here so we can keep playing. When we play soccer together, it's like, these are the boundaries so we can have fun and think the game is fair. Because if they're going, the ball's going way over there and you're a marathon runner, and I'm not. That's not fair anymore. Right. And I'm going to stop playing with you. So boundaries are a way for us to have fun together. And so that's what I'm focused on how do I create boundaries so that I can continue my time with you. And if you're trying to push the boundary to a place that I know I'm no longer going to feel this is fair or fun for me, it's not going to benefit anybody in the relationship.

Guys, as you know, this podcast is not just about your love life. It's about truly loving life. And one of the things that I find most important when it comes to loving life is the things that we can do that make our lives better every single day. And we go to bed every single day. So the sleep we get, what we sleep on and how we feel in the night is one of the ways that we can increase our quality of life meaningfully on an ongoing basis every single day. One of the ways that Audrey and I do that is through the bed sheets. We have. And we have found no greater bed sheets than the bed sheets that Cozy Earth have. They are bamboo. They are soft. They are so cool. I'm someone who gets hot throughout the night. I sleep better than I've ever slept in these bed sheets. And Audrey loves them, too. So much so that when we travel, she complains that we don't have them.

The hotel bed sheets just don't cut it for me anymore. But seriously, you guys, these bed sheets are next level. We have been using them for years, actually far longer than we've been talking about them on the podcast. We're really, really excited to be able to share with you guys a 40% discount code on any of their items on their website. All you have to do is head over to cozyearth.com and type in the code love life when you get to the checkout, and you will get a 40% discount.

Head over to cozyearth.com use that discount code lovelife, while it's available. Enjoy your bed sheets and stay cozy.

We had a question from somebody who asked, if somebody is forceful while initiating intimacy the first time, is that a sign of them being abusive or excited?

I think that's an interesting question. I want to let you answer, but I'm just. I want to point out that I think the nuance in there is interesting because you have a whole culture of people who are, like, trained on pornography. Yes, that's aggressive. And women seeming to enjoy it and whatever. So those lines have been very blurred in recent years especially. So. I'm so fascinated to hear your answer.

And I think as well, the reason I think this is such an interesting question is that any woman who has been sexually active in their life has experienced that.

Yeah.

Someone being forceful, someone being pushy, someone not respecting, you know, the fact that you have drawn a boundary or said actually like, you know, not tonight or whatever.

So can I just make a clarification? Do you think this is leaning more towards forceful in the sense that they're not taking no for an answer, or forceful in the sense that there's something quite aggressive about their physicality in that situation?

Well, I think they kind of go hand in hand. I see it more as the former, but they can go. I think they go hand in hand because I think there's a. When somebody is being forceful and pushy, they tend to be physically forceful and pushy as well. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think to me that they're kind of one and the same in a way.

Tiana Taylor recently said this line that was so simple and beautiful. She's like, I'm a cup of tea. She's like, I tell people that up front when they date me. And when you're holding a cup of tea, it's like hot, it's delicate, you have to sip it, you can't guzzle it, you're going to get burnt. You could, you know. So like some people are glasses of water, you shake them around, you walk in. What's up? What's up? Some people are bottles of wine. Right. I'm not, I'm a cup of tea. So I think, to Matthew's point is that I don't like the idea of writing people off, off the top just because the culture is very confusing. I think for men it's extremely difficult to be sexual. Right now you're stuck between a rock and a hard place of trying to be not too masculine, but still the man and the leader, because you have all this like, alpha man. I want a leader. I want someone who's directive, I want someone who takes control. And then you're told if you do that too much, then you're toxic. And women want somebody who's like sexually free and a freak in the bedroom, but, oh, if you want that up your butt or if you want this kind of touch, like, this is getting weird for me now and I see this all the time, even in our culture of women becoming, you know, more tolerant and more open. It's just you have to really watch the ways that we've been conditioned to shut down people, people's authenticity. And so I think a lot of times men aren't necessarily being authentic, they're being performative and that's because they've heard from somewhere else that that's what they think that you would like. I remember I was doing. I was talking to a bunch of teens about consent and about sex. And we were talking about, like, you know, before someone kisses you, them asking. And all of the girls, there's about seven of them, there were like, ew. Oh, my God. Like you're gonna ask me. It's so sus. That's so cringe. Like, ew. That could give me the ick. I would never. And I'm like, yeah, because you are picturing that one guy that you have a crush on that you've been, like, flirting with back and forth for a long time. You're not understanding that this is the message that you're giving. And everybody's hearing that right now. So they can interpret that. Oh, if I like a girl, I gotta just go for it, right? And we've never been taught to read indicators of interest. We've never necessarily been taught how to read body language. Like, all of this is pretty alien to most of us. So people just have bad impulses because they have bad information, because we don't have conversations with nuance. So I think it's to go back to Tiana Taylor comment. I would give her that advice. Hey, I'm kind of a cup of tea. Maybe in the past you've dealt people you know, who are more like a water bottle. You could toss it around. Look at this thing. You could do anything to this, right? Throw it in the dryer. It'll come out the same. I'm not that. I'm a small, delicate cup of tea, and this is how I like to be handled.

The number one question by far that was asked, which I'm sure you get asked all the time, was, what do you do when you have misaligned libidos in a relationship? And are there other forms of intimacy that you should be having?

If that's the case, 100% yes, you're gonna have misaligned everything all the time in a relationship at different times, compatibility is the freak accident versus the norm. Tonight's meal, Tilapia surprise. With boiled cabbage, begin cooking steps 1 through 50 now.

Are you kidding me? Making dinner shouldn't feel like doing a thousand piece puzzle. With Blue Apron's new one Pan assemble and bake meals. The hard part's already done. Pre chopped ingredients, zero stress. Just assemble, bake and enjoy. No complicated steps, no mountain of dishes. Try assemble and bake today. Get 20% off your first two orders. With code apron20 terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and stick satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app download today.

And it's also short term, right? Like, we can have financial compatibility for a while and then you get a new hobby and things shift or I lose my job and things shift. Like, the only thing constant in this world is change, right? So there's no such thing as, like, permanent compatibility or permanent incompatibility. So libidos are going to go up and down. You guys might be on the exact same one. I actually think it's much better if couples start off on mismatched libidos because you create the culture in your relationship of having to talk about it. So I know couples, for example, who went on the Bachelor, right? Or they met on a reality show. And that's hot and heavy all the time. And that's like, that's all you do because you're in this heightened environment. They're like pumping you full of all these scenarios and ideal situations to get you horny, hot and bothered and drunk. And so that's your relationship. And then you come back to real life and there's more nuance. And now you had a long day and you didn't spend the whole day talking to each other. And I've always needed a deep conversation in order to have sex. But now all of a sudden you're out all day and you come home and expect the same result. But it's like, no, no. Like, that circumstance was based on my libido and my. The way that I desired you was based in circumstances that no longer exist to what we're in today. And people have a hard time talking about it if they built their whole love story on like, we just can't get enough of each other. We can't keep our hands off each other. If that's the story that you've built, it's really hard to go back on that. But the truth of the matter is you will. You will get pregnant. You maybe if you want to, but you will get sick. Perhaps someone's going to die or pass away. You're going to have a hard time at work, or maybe sometimes you just. You got really into meditation. There's going to be different ebbs and flows in life. And so creating the culture to have these kinds of conversations is fundamental. So everybody should be making an effort to figure out, okay, when things are not aligning, how do we come together? What does compromise look like? What does compassion look like when I do something? Not because I want to, because I want to do it for you. And how frequently are those things happening? It's also important to note, like, if you guys have ever had any great sex research on before, which is. It's always worth saying, is that when we first get into a relationship, we experience lots of spontaneous desire, which means, like, we don't even have to think about it. Right. And your body is designed to pair bond, and it's trying to create that bond. So it's pumping you full of these neurochemicals that make it so easy to have those moments, kind of like your own villa. And then once you go from passionate love to companionate love, those neurochemicals tend to shut off, which is a positive thing, because if they stayed on, it would shorten your life expectancy. So when they start to fall off, you now have to start making desire happen. And for many people, that doesn't even kick in until five minutes into being sexually active together. So that to be said, like, there's many. There's a million different conversations we can have around libido. If you haven't had one, get started and give yourself the grace to say, like, oh, we should be having this. Just like we have the conversation every day. What do you want for dinner? You know, I can't have sushi. Right. Okay, well, I really in the mood for that. So can we have this? Like, that negotiation happens maybe sometimes three times a day.

Do you think that there is, like, a kind of inherent paradox about the fact that we need more communication around these things, but also communication itself being something that can be the. The sex killer? As in the more you shine a light.

Yes.

On the fact that we're not having sex. And the more we talk about it and chop it up and dissect it, and we're like, suddenly it's like we've taken it well and truly outside of the world of desire. And now it's just being analyzed constantly. And now we're doing therapy over it and talking about it. And now it. Like, it's. There's something about early dating that, you know, one of the things that is really sexy about early dating is that it is this kind of mystery box.

Yeah.

And we are just, like, feeling our way around it, and we're not. And there's so much that's unspoken now. We're in a relationship where there's already the absence of those chemicals. And on top of that, we're analyzing the hell out of it and talking about it. And how do you. How do you resolve that kind of conflict between making it even more unsexy? By talking about the fact that you're struggling.

Great question. Yeah. Esther Perel, one of her quotes is that no one's ever had more sex from talking about how little sex they have.

Right.

That's the truth. But there's a difference between, like, let's talk about the fact that, like, we don't have dinner plans right now. We never have dinner plans. And like, I don't know if you're considerate of the fact that I've gone vegan recently. There's a difference between that conversation and, like, oh, dinner's coming up, babe. What are you in the mood for right now? Okay. I'm vegan right now, so I'm more interested in stuff that are a bit healthier. But I'm so still looking for something really carby, like, what are you. What are you down for? So you don't have to talk about the sex you're not having. Talk about the sex you want to have. Most people haven't even done that. And then again, expanding the word sex from the definition that you used to have. Right. Because it can be. The sex that I'm having today is so different than sex I was having three months ago. And we spend more time doing different activities. And yesterday, I'm not going to go into it, but, you know, I had a great night last night, but it didn't include the normal 5, 6, 7, 8. Right. And that's because myself and my partner know that we're different people every day. So I just think instead of having the focal point on why you don't, it's like, okay, well, when do you. And why do you. When you do and when you don't. What's happening around the don't. That we can start to manage those. I have a thing called turn on triggers. It's an activity on my website, too. But just speaking to the fact that when we first get into a relationship, those chemicals are naturally making this happen for us. On top of the fact we're doing all the right things, we're scheduling sex when we're dating. You know, what are you doing on Tuesday? Okay, let's have like a nightcap at 9:30. We've had sex before, we know what's gonna happen after. So I'm shaving, I'm getting dressed, I'm going through my ritual, I'm thinking about it, I'm giving myself foreplay before I get there. Now I live with you and you expect me to go from co worker, you know, mom, chef, whatever, dad. I'm giving all these stereotypical roles. My construction worker in the house. You could be the dad or you could be, you know, you could be the chef. But you're trying to go from these multi dynamic roles to like now we get into bed and I'm expecting the same thing to happen when we first got into a relationship, but our days didn't look anything the same, right? There's a completely different day that led to that moment. So what is the thing that I now do to build in that consideration? All right, we're not having the opportunity that we used to have before to get ourselves in the mood, to have the time to feel good about ourselves first, to have separation, to build that fire. So let's work with what we have in order for me to get in the mood I require. So there's the turn on triggers are chore play, direct. There is cat and mouse, there is sapiosexual, and then there's a sensualist. So a sensualist is somebody who needs their senses engaged. Right? That's like if I didn't shower, it's not going to happen. If you didn't shower and if the lights are a certain way, if there's laundry in my peripheral, like I need to be engaged to the senses. My husband's like that. I know that if that was a really big issue for us when we first had kids because he's so mindful of the environment, the idea that our one month old baby could hear us freaked him out. So it took him a long time to get over that because he is so concerned about the surroundings. I could care less. I could have sex on a pile of dirty newspaper. Like that's not for me. What I require is direct language. I want to know that I am desired. So if my partner is like, oh my gosh, those legs, they're gonna, they're gonna be wrapped around me tonight. I'm like, oh, not just you're horny, but you're horny for me. Like I am exciting you. That's what gets me going. Then the cat and mouse is really important too. Because that's also a big part of the beginning part. There's something I called erotic ambiguity. You know when you first get into a relationship with somebody and you know that you have sexual chemistry, maybe you've even had sex before, but you still don't know if sex is going to happen. So it's like this really fun thing between you and that's, you know, in the animal kingdom, that's when peacocking happens. It's like, okay, bird, I like you, you like me. Now I'm doing a little dance for you. You respond, I lean in, then I go back. When you're in a long term relationship because sex has happened so many times, sometimes there's an anticipation that it's just gonna happen. So you still kind of. Some people need the game, still the dance. Even if we know how it's gonna end, I still require that dance.

What does that look like in a relationship? I'm curious, like what. How can people bring that cat and mouse element in to a situation that feels like a foregone conclusion?

Role play. Role play doesn't have to require an avatar costume, right? Role play is me just pretending I role play all the time. Like I'll just be the same stuff. Like, oh, like, you know, you went to church today. Like, you shouldn't be masturbating. Whatever I'll say, right? But I'll pull on old versions of himself or old realities that he's been in, overalls I've been in. Or I'll even just say it like, oh. Like this is just so you know, this is not going farther than kissing. Like, I'll still say that. And he's like, whatever. But he still pretends that it might be true. Like, let's just pretend, right? Like, let's just pretend that that thing is between us. We went away on vacation recently and we got there at like maybe 11:00am he was like, we're not going to have sex until after dinner. That was like 6pm so from 11am to 6 and all we're there to do is be together. We just like caught each other in all these like moments and then push each other away. Like, that was my favorite. So fun, right? Like, so those little things again, you just, you're both participating and knowing that you have to make the magic happen. You have to make that fire happen.

What do you say to people who feel that they don't have a kind of natural confidence about role playing and they feel silly and it's, they're embarrassed by it or, you know, there's that terror of, I'm going to do this and my partner's kind of just going to look at me funny and shut me down. Because they're not very imaginative in those ways. And they're just going to kind of like, I'm not going to have a good sparring partner.

Yeah. I'm going to get rejected for this.

They're not going to. Yes. And me.

Yeah.

And, you know, you hear from a lot of people who say, I, I have fantasies or I have things that I might like to do, but my partner isn't really like that. Or they're going to. They're a bit more of a prude, or they're a bit more shut down, or they're a bit more like vanilla in that sense. And so how can people, A, have more confidence in themselves to initiate role plays, and B, what do they do if they don't have an imaginative partner?

Yes. So for. I'll answer that in two ways. One, for role playing, like, your, Your first acting role shouldn't be like you playing a role Leonardo DiCaprio would take on. You're going to take a role that's like you playing yourself. So your first bit of role playing can just be you pretending that, like, it's not going to happen. I'm still me. I probably know it's going to happen, but I'm just going to pretend that. Remember when we first started dating and it was kind of the question. I'm going to go back into that mindset. I'm going to pretend that I'm a little mad. I'm going to put, I'm going to be a brat. I'm going to pretend that I'm, like, mad at you and, like, oh, and then you're going to pretend maybe, maybe you pretend to be the brat. So I'm still just being myself, but, like, a little outside of the box. And you get good at that. Then maybe you can, like, advance to, like, now we're in the rainforest. An avatar. But I will just say, in general, there's something that does have to happen. And I, I want to direct this towards women because I mostly work with women, but I see women sabotage themselves all the time in the language that they use casually with their partner. Like, oh, my God, that would be so gross if you did that. I was recently talking to a couple and we were, we were talking about peacocking how. Just in general, like, peacocking is traditionally a man's responsibility or the male responsibility in the animal kingdom. And I was talking about, like, Magic Mike and dancing and how, like, men really do enjoy that. They enjoy the ones who have to, like, do the pursuit and, like, put their masculinity on display. And then she was like, I wouldn't like, die of laughter if you did that. And then her husband was like, well, I'm Cuban. I'm actually kind of good at it. But it's like you have to. When you're building a fire. Have you guys ever built a fire before?

Yes. It's very hard.

So hard. And when you get a little ember going, everybody has to participate. Like, we got a spark. Boom. We're all blowing on it together. Someone's fanning it, someone's shielding it from the wind. Like, that's where we have to be on together if we want to have a great sex life. Long term, we see that little spark. We got to be in this together. We have to, like, quell all of those, like, awkwardness. My partner danced for me recently. There was a. Part of. It was a little silly, but I squealed like I was at a Backstreet Boys concert because I wanted him to feel like he was into it. And it's like, that's going to pay off long term, whatever awkwardness I'm feeling in the moment. And I. If I laugh, it's usually my embarrassment. Not because I think he's doing something embarrassing, but I shove that part of me down. I want to build the fire. Like, let's get on this same page together.

I think that's a really powerful metaphor, that idea of building a fire. Because it's. Our egos are like fragile in the bedroom, a lot of us, and it's like you. We have a responsibility to protect our partner's ego.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

What were the other things? So there was cat and mouse.

Yes.

I think we're play. Yes, go ahead.

So chore play, in essence means that for many people who have multi dynamic lives together, you have a million different tabs open. And in order for you to even get to a space of wanting to feel sexual, you need to close those tabs. So chore play. Clean the kitchen for me. You know, take the kids to ballet for me. Take out the trash, Drive me somewhere. Like, give me less things to do so I can focus on really genuinely doing this. That becomes a really big need for couples, especially new parents as well, too. Like, you want to ask me to do something else, but I'm exhausted from a day of doing. And you already had your break for yourself while I clean the kitchen. So I'm Looking at you, it's not going to be you. But I try my best not to be gendered here. But in general, I think people just want that extra support to know that when we both fall into bed, we fall into bed with the same battery life. And I saw that you made an effort to conserve my battery so I can have this moment that is necessarily a pass to my body. It's not like it's an exchange, but it definitely helps. And the last other one is sapio sexual, which are people who require the connection here to get the waterworks or to get the stuff moving. Everybody gets wet and hard. So for all bodies to get wet and hard, they first need that intense mental connection to happen first.

These are great.

Really practical, really good.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing those and knowing.

What your partners is. So I have a quiz on my website where you can do it and have your partner do it. And like I said, knowing that my partner's is very different from mine is very important because if I try to do what works for me on him, I'm not going to get the result that I'm looking for.

Can you tell us your website so people can find.

Yes, it's loversbyshan.com lovers by Shan.

And there's a quiz on the website.

Yeah, there's a resource page with a bunch of quizzes and worksheets and that's one of them.

Amazing. If you haven't tried out Matthew AI yet, this is your chance. Matthew AI is our most most popular new tool where you can speak to me one on one about anything that's on your mind right now. Any question that you would want me to answer if I was sat next to you right now? Matthew AI has now answered over 2 million questions. People are speaking to it for hours on end because they're finding it that useful. I promise you, if you have not tried it yet, you are missing out on one of the best things that we have. It is like having one on one coaching with me, which has never been available before to people all over the world. So if you want to make me your coach, starting right now, this Second, go to askmh.com whether you want to ask what to say to someone who hasn't texted you back, how you can stop ruminating over something, somebody, how to have the what are we? Conversation or how to deal with anxiety that you're feeling about mixed signals. Go and ask your question right now of Matthew AI askmh.com you even get some free minutes just to try it. Head over there now ask your question and see what it can do for you. So for people who, let's say you're in a fairly new relationship, you're. You want to express things that you want. You're trying to be careful to not be like, this is what I've always enjoyed in the past. Because you're worried about, like, inflaming them. And you. You know, you don't want to put yourself in a situation where all of a sudden you've made them think about every ex you've been with or a person in the past. How can someone bring up things they want to do while still kind of. Or. Or do they need to give up on that and say it's up to the other person to be okay with that or to get comfortable with that? I'm just curious what your stance on that is.

That's a really great question because it's very particular. So if you know, you have a room or sexual. Sexual romantic partner who tends to be more anxious, attached, and can get in their head a lot about your past, how do you talk about the things that you like without triggering them to think about all the people that you've done that with before? That's a really great question because, I mean, traditionally, I would just say, like, porn is really great for that because you watched a video or you saw a video, but if you have a partner who already kind of maybe even gets triggered in that capacity of knowing that you look at those types of formats, then that's not a good option for you.

And obviously it gets to a point where it's, like, suggestive of incompatibility. Right. Because if you. If you're with someone who's, you know, so kind of on edge about your sexuality and about the fact that you are someone who really enjoys sex, or then it. It might not be a match, like, that might not be your person, but it's also entirely possible for us to put our foot in it or for us to draw someone's imagination in a direction that's not helpful?

Yeah.

To them, what is the best way of bringing up that you'd like to.

Do more of something, again, in consideration with that person's insecurity? I'd probably, like, lead with that and maybe the compliment sandwich. I think there's a better answer. I just don't have it. And I think that these guys. This is a very good nuanced question, but I'm gonna just give a shot here of saying the compliment sandwich of, like, what you love that you guys do that you think is so amazing in the middle of, like, would you want to try? And then just saying one thing and then also acknowledging, too, that, like, there's many ways to get to China, right? Like, there's direct flights, then there's cruises, there's planes or ships. And so if you feel like you're asking your partner to go to China and you know that's going to be a shell shock for them than, like, suggesting somewhere else first. Do you want to go to the Chinatown downtown? Right. Like, so let's just start there. Like, if I want, for example, to get to pegging with my partner, I don't start there. Right. I just start in general with grabbing their butt once in a while. Or, like, when I am, I might start with the gooch or the taint. Right? Like, so I'm gonna start moving in that direction, but I'm not going directly for that end goal. And then I'm stopping and pausing. Hopefully we're going to have sex with for a long time, and we're going to have lots of exploration. And the brain is so basic, right? Like, you can just do one little new thing, and the brain's like, wow, what was that? You know, and that's enough, right? We don't have to do 70 things. We could just do one extra thing each time. So I think I'd identify, like, what is the one sort of small thing that we can start and do that I'm curious about doing with this person? And then I'll end it with the way that and why I want to do it with you? So, like, what do I love that we do? What's one thing I like us to try? And why with you, would I love to do this?

That's really great. I love that answer.

Yeah.

Can you talk about just sexual jealousy?

And that was my next question.

Okay, well, then I'm gonna let you deliver it.

No, no. We had a question coming in which I thought was so poignant. It's exactly that. How to handle retroactive jealousy around my partner's ex. I have in my mind that they had amazing chemistry, and it makes me feel insecure.

Yeah. I would hope they had great chemistry. Hope you were the great person who can connect with a lot of other people, and they chose you, and they chose well and they chose wisely. There's. I mention him all the time, but there's a sex expert I love. His name is Alex Grundy. And he said this line to me that I just, like, always carry with me. He said that it's my dream to meet a woman who knows how amazing she is, how sexy she is, how cool she is, that she doesn't care about anybody else and doesn't mean that she diminishes their light. But she walks so fully in her own and she carries a self knowing that there's no one else like me and there never has been. And that's what she operates with. And so obviously, why would you go back when you're here? And if you did want to go back, then you wouldn't be here. So I think it's a lot of self talk to get to that place of just deep knowing because there's nothing a partner can do or say.

Yeah.

And I'm going to assume that. I hope that you're with a great person who does have a past of people who they had a good connection with. That's the. That's the best marker. Oh, let me tell you, every time I've dated somebody who had a terrible romantic history, it was a terrible romantic situation. You know, like, my husband is still really good friends with his exes. They still reach out. Why would they not? He's so cool. He's so fun to be around. I could bring him in this room and you guys would love him. Like, he's amazing. So the other alternative is being with the dick who, like, everyone's like, glad that guy's gone. And then you don't have to worry about exes or you don't have to worry about them even having that opportunity because they burn every bridge. So as hard as it is, it's just a credit to how great you are, how good your picker is, and those feelings are valid, but is there a different way that you can look at them? I want to ask that question to you guys, though, because that is a complicated question. So how would you advise somebody to get over the obsessing over their partner's romantic history in order to live in the present with them?

I have a short and sweet answer to it, which is I think the safer you feel in the relationship, the more you're able to do that. And I think oftentimes we feel really jealous and insecure because we don't feel safe either within ourselves or with our partner. And so to me, it's almost that's the first place to look. I also think there's kind of like mind tricks you can play on yourself, which is the fact that you do feel a little bit of retroactive jealousy actually fuels your chemistry and your desire for that person, because it reminds you that, well, there was other people that found them attractive and it's kind of annoying and like. And you can sort of spin it in your head instead of it being something that makes you feel unsafe and is deeply negative, actually. Actually looking at it just as something that, like, brings a little bit more excitement to your relationship. So those are the two things that come to mind.

That's really interesting.

Top of mind.

What about.

That's. It was funny because the second one actually follows from. On, from the first. If you feel safe.

Yes.

You can use their sexual history and the desire or the chemistry they may have had with someone else as a kind of aphrodisiac.

And if you don't feel safe, if.

You don't feel safe, it's a threat. So that's really interesting. I think that's also, in some ways quite a female answer because I think that that doesn't get guys, a lot of guys over their kind of. And not every guy is like this, but the kind of that stereotypical male possessive thing that men have where they're like. Like, I think I expect you to.

Be a guy in bed, but never have had sex with anybody but me.

Yes. But that answer, I can hear that guy being like, okay, fine. But that doesn't help me. I just like that, you know, if you've had too many partners or if you've done this or have you done that. And I think that in some ways, I don't know, are we evolving? Sometimes I wonder if we're evolving, but we're. I feel like culturally things have shifted.

Half of us are evolving.

Right. Some are regressing, but it's I the way. Because, look, I've been. I've not been without jealousy in my life. And. And even in our relationship in the early days. And I. The way I come at it, the kind of mind hack I use, has always been to say, I don't get you the way that you are. The you, the you that I've fallen for. I don't actually get you without everything that went before it.

Yes.

So whatever went before it, whether I like it or not, it has all contributed to the you that you are today. Like, there's plenty of. And it doesn't. This doesn't just fall into the category of sex. Many people don't like that their partner did something else in their 20s or did this, did that, whatever. Like, they disapprove or they feel like, I wish you hadn't done that. I don't like that. I know that you're disappointed, did that, whatever. But if you actually look at everything, if you almost look at it through a deterministic lens of a set of dominoes, everything, every one of those things had to happen. I. For you to even meet this person. Because if their life had gone a different way, you may not have been in the same room that night.

If they had sex with that person, you would never have met.

You wouldn't have been there that night I met you. Exactly. But that's kind of true. I kind of do believe that that's the, you know, that's the butterfly effect. But there's. There's the other side of it, which is your particular brand of humor, your level of experience, even just with people. Like, we learn from the people we wish we hadn't slept with or the relationships that messed us up or whatever. Some of it made us funny. Some of it made us, you know, able to be very discerning. It made us very sharp. It made us street smart.

Some of us wrote a book based on it.

Wrote a book? Yeah. And it's like, you can't. I want you. If I. If I really love that you're street smart, but I hate all the things that. That made you street smart. That's. That you can't have that. And if anything had changed, I might not have fallen in love with you so hard. And then what did I gain?

I think that's such a great point. And I love the fact that if we can't get over the past, that's fundamentally incompatibility, because that's the one thing I can't change. So if that's a sticking point for you, like, if you can't look at it through that lens, then it's quits. I love the answer you gave about safety. I just always want to encourage people to break those words out, really clearly. I had a partner once who would just constantly berate me with respect. I need you to respect me. And that word definition, I feel like it changed every day. Sometimes it was about ordering hamburgers. Sometimes it was about the way that I treated his daughter. Sometimes it was about the way I ordered a drink. I was like, I. I didn't understand it. When we think about safety, like, if we had a safety fire drill for this room, it would be like, clear things written down to be safe, you have to check these points. So I just want to encourage people to do exactly what you did, what you mentioned of feeling, making sure that their partner helps them to feel safe by being very clear about what they Require from that. I just spoke with somebody recently who was like, for the first year of my relationship, I said to my partner, you have to be home by 6pm I need that. Like, I get very anxious. It brings out the worst side in me. I start to spiral. Like, this is a requirement to love me. Are you okay with that? I feel safe when you do this. And then that person can decide whether or not they. They can meet that standard or not. But creating those standards for safety, for respect are really important.

I love that. Absolutely.

I have so many questions. We'll try and wrap up shortly, but I just. I'm going to see if I can quick fire a couple. Why is it sex can feel so good in toxic relationships?

I think erotic ambiguity. Like, you get that cat and mouse chase again, and that person has to win you over. And it resets the clock, right? So if we have one, that and two, arousal confusion. So there was an experiment that was done and they had people on a bridge that was stable and one that was swinging. Guess which date people reported being more attracted to their partner. The swinging bridge. Because your heart rate is up, your pupils are dilated because you're ultra aware in that moment. Maybe your breath is a little shorter. And these are all the same things that happen when you get horny. So arousal confusion. That's why people have, like, angry sex. Because you're already in a heightened state that physiologically mirrors the state that you get in before you have sex. So it's a nice, easy transition. So that's one of the reasons, you know, you're pissed off all the time and you're like, am I pissed off or am I horny? Oh, let's come over here. And so that's that. But also, I think too, like, it's a part of the fun. Like, it's. It's when you look in the animal kingdom that is the pattern, right? We're not supposed to be living until 100 years, partner with the same person. Even, like, the most monogamous animals are monogamous 88% of the time and usually like, you know, in shorter spurts. And they don't live until 80 or 100 years old. So we have to try to, like, replicate sort of the formula of falling in love, because there's something very powerful about that. And when you're in a toxic relationship, you replicate that formula that, like, I don't want you. And then I'm the peacock who's like, look over here. I'm so shiny. Come on, let's do this. And then I, you woo me, I woo you, then we do it. And then afterwards, you're a complete dick. I cut you off, I stop speaking to you. Then we reset the clock all over again. Next time I see you, I'm like, I'm not speaking to you. And then they're like, look at me, come on, I've changed. I went to therapy, I watched this one documentary. And then we start the dance all over again and again. Like, it gets that heart rate up, it dilates those pupils. It's exciting, it's dangerous, it's all of those things. So why would that not be fun?

Do you think, therefore, that there is a kind of acceptance that people have to come to that it's a healthier relationship is not going to give you those same kinds of spikes and that you, you have to come to terms with that because if you spend your life looking for those spikes, you're gonna continuous. You're either going to end up in toxic situations or you're going to end up basically resetting the clock on relationships over and over and over again by hopping from person to person, hoping that the euphoria never ends.

I think like you can go to a cliff and jump off and get that feeling of a drop, drop in your stomach and the wind in your hair and the unknown and like the adrenaline rush of that and you could die, but you do it because it's fun. Or you could go to a roller coaster and kind of get a similar feeling, but it's in a more controlled, contained environment. That to be said, like still pursue the feeling, but you just want to do it in a contained, controlled environment and it's not going to happen as naturally. A roller coaster takes so much more engineering, so much more technical technique, technicalities, more maintenance, more work. So I think it's very possible to fabricate those feelings in a long term, safe and loving relationship. But we've got to be really intentional about that. And it's much easier to go up to the top of a cliff and jump off. But like, I don't, I don't want to do that. So what's the alternative?

I'm wondering if you've. What you've seen in people who like aging couples who I can I. Anecdotal stories I hear speaking to friends, connecting with people is that it seems like one of two things happens for a lot of people. Either sex ends up sort of being shelved and there's just a relationship now where those two people have buried those parts of themselves and it's repressed. And maybe it comes out in sort of other ways or whatever, but as far as each other are concerned, it's gone. And other people start to become more experimental because the kinds of possessive jealousies that occur earlier in a relationship subside because two people have just gotten so safe, so in some ways bored, that the desire to just get back to some kind of spike overrides whatever jealousies could come up or whatever feelings could come up that boundaries they would never have broken. In year five, suddenly in year 30 or year 20, it's like, well, what do we have to lose? I'm just curious what you've seen there and what you encourage.

Yeah, that's such a great story. And thank you for sharing both those. I loved going on that journey with you. I think, to the first couple who no longer has a sex life anymore. Are you happy and fine with that? Like, do you like to be horny? If some people don't, that's a genuine thing. Like, a lot of couples, they just don't require that anymore. And guess what? Your hormones are on your side. Your body doesn't require you to procreate. You're not going to be as motivated as you once were biologically. And you're not as incentivized, of course, because you're not trying to secure a mate. You already have your person there. They're gone. The same decline as well. So if you guys are kind of happy to go on that together, then that's completely fine and you can have a great connection. That is not to say I say sexless in, like, you have sex less than 10 times a year, it could still happen, but it's no longer, like, a given in your relationship. I love being horny. And I actually can note this now because I'm 40, so, like, I get the experience of watching my hormones decline and no longer being an automatic. There was a time where I, like, had to masturbate. I don't anymore. So times that I do feel it, I'm like, I love this feeling. So I'm gonna chase it for the rest of my life, you know, like, in a way that's healthy for me. So I will probably end up like the latter couple. I smile because when you were telling the story of, like, you know, they've gotten so safe and so boring that they're like, huh, to hell with it. Let's just try it. I think it's kind of in a flip on that, like, I think you become so secure in your relationship that you're like, you are not going nowhere. Like, you got that snoring problem. Like, to find somebody else who's going to deal with you. We have our kids, we have our life, we have our business, we have our home. Like, because you've had enough life together and you've had enough experiences of seeing your partner have the ability to choose somebody else and constantly choose, choose you. I think that's why you get really secure. Not because you're, like, super bored, but because you're like, you have a super rich life together. And then you can start to have those kinds of conversations about the fear of loss. It's like, well, what do we have to gain? It almost becomes, what do we have to lose? We're not going to lose each other. We know that. And so I think that that's where the experiment, experimentation, fun comes. And I always go back to that fact of the brain is just not as tricky as you think. Some people are like, well, I gotta sign up for a swingers club. And okay, I guess I have to start getting an STD test mailed to my house every month. And it's like, maybe you just have sex and watch porn together. Maybe you guys go to a resort and you do it with the blinds open. Like, these little small, subtle things can bring that spark and that novelty back. But you have to ask yourself if you enjoy that.

So that kind of goes well into my next question, which is, what do you do when one person has a fantasy that breaks the other one's boundaries? And I contained within your answer there, to me, is an answer to that question. Because I. I also think that some. A lot of people think they want something but would be happy with the idea being entertained more than the reality.

Yes.

You know, like, if you can somehow simulate the idea of it or, you know, pretend you're in that world where that's happening. I think actually a lot of people's fantasies, they think they really want them when they can't have them, but if they got too close to them, it would scare them.

Yeah.

I said I wanted it. I'm not sure. Like, I think a lot of people are like that. So, you know, there is a world where you can kind of live in the idea. Instead of being offended by the idea, be like, how can we live in that idea together? How can we explore it as a fun thing, as something that we can tiptoe around without doing it, but still give you that fix? And to that extent, I think our brains are so powerful and those subtle shifts make all the difference. But do you have a different answer? When it comes to one person really wanting something and the other person just being like that, for me, violates the rules of the relationship or it violates my. Some boundary I have.

Yeah. Let's go back to talking about sushi. Sorry, Audrey, but if you have a friend who's like, I don't. Raw fish, why would I do that? I am not eating raw fish. Absolutely no. You would probably be like, just come get yourself a teriyaki roll. Try the California roll. Right. Like, I'm not going to bring you in there and give you, like, sashimi. That was just caught this morning. Right. Like, so I think a lot of people just take for granted. I think what's unfortunate about the way that we learn about sex is we don't learn about sex. And so we all think it's seven things. It is an expression of humanity. As Esther Perel said, it's not something that we do. It's a place that we go together. So it's an opportunity to invite all parts of yourselves in there. So many different experiences to try. Like, I could try a British accent tonight. It's a new sexual experience. Right? So rather than me being like, I've always wanted to have sex with a British, maybe I just pretend to have the accent or we play. We put a movie on the background while we're having sex, or I read a book beforehand and then I think about that while I'm together with you. That's also such a huge, powerful thing. When we think about, you know, sex, we often think about the two people in the room. There's billions of other people, influences, conversations that can be happening in your mind. I think that your brain's an amazing tool that you can bring into things. So even going somewhere mentally while you're with your partner, experiencing them and bringing them into your fantasy without having to bring them there physically. So just think that there's a lot of space between what you want to do and what you're doing now for majority of people. So, like, take those small steps with somebody and then acknowledge that in order for you to get to that realization of that fantasy or that fetish, you probably had seven years, maybe watching videos, asking friends, maybe you tried it once with somebody else. Like, you have so much education and information that the other person doesn't have. So to ask them in a moment to drop into what you're looking for when you didn't even do that, I think is unfair and unrealistic. So it's just again, like, even just My quick homework. Go on any kind of kink website and just like read up kinks from A to Z. You'd be like, God damn, how many words are here? Like, there's like 500. So again, we're thinking about sex. Like threesome. Pegging, like these very specific, like, fantasies or ideals. There's so many things that we can try. Why don't we just start somewhere that we both actually want to go?

Just a quick one to finish. I'm just curious. Who do you really look up to in this area?

Oh, you. Love you. I think you're so great.

Thank you.

You're so smart and powerful and poignant and clear, directive, cool. You know, approachable, knowledgeable, gracious. So you doctor Spirit. Another amazing, incredible one. Joycelyn Elders. She was the first black attorney general and she was a massive sex educator. I got to serve on her on a board with her for Trojan Sexual Health Board. You know, I look up and inspire her so much. Esther Perel, of course. Phenomenal. I'm from Canada, so I gotta say Sue Johansson over Dr. Ruth. It's just the way that it is. That's what I grew up with.

Who is that? I don't know. She was the Dr. Ruth of Canada.

So weird about that. She's an old lady. So it's like the same person, but just one was Canadian and one was so interesting. She was an old lady.

Still alive?

No, she's passed. She's an old lady with a late night talk show where she had puppets and like, spoke very candidly about things that no one talked about, but now your grandma's talking about them. But she was the Canadian version of Dr. Ruth, which. I know you work with Dr. Ruth.

I know.

Yeah.

So very sad when she passed. She. She was special. And you know, I. I just think anyone who is coming from that generation.

Yes.

Who could speak to topics that even, like, you, you surely can't. Like, even as you're talking, I'm like, we have, like, for us, we're really open to talking about everything. I can imagine. There are so many podcasts where you can't talk exactly how you've spoken here today.

Oh, no, yeah. For sure not. You know, I probably shouldn't have said a lot of things I said today. That's.

No, but, like, I think that's a. I think that's a beautiful thing about what you do. And I. I think it should be celebrated because you really make it okay to have these conversations without all of the shame and the baggage that people have them with. I I find it so refreshing. I think it's a, I genuinely think it's amazing. And I think you should do it more and do it everywhere. And I, I, But I was, as you were talking, I was like, man, it's not, you know, there are so many podcasts where you wouldn't be welcomed in doing that, where it would be hard for you to do that. When I did that condom campaign, I went on a radio show in America, and the host began by saying, okay, so we have this guy, Matthew Hussey on, and he's going to be talking about, I'll say the word once, condoms. And I was like, what do you mean, I'll say the word once? Like, what, what are we talking about here? Yeah, like, the fact that that was, that's how you opened up a con. And then he was like. And the next question was, why do you think it. We're struggling so much with people having safe sex. And I was like, maybe because a grown man like you struggles to say the word condom. Like, it's bizarre to me. But I, when I look at the Dr. Ruth's and the people like that, I, I. And the, the woman you spoke about from Canada, I, I think it's so heroic for them to be talking about these things in the time that they did, because there's people that are still shameful today about these things. To think of it back then, it's a whole different story.

Oh, yeah, it must have been absolutely brutal. And it's beautiful to see that the work is changing and that a lot of our heroes got to start to see those shifts happening, and they happen every day in small ways. I think of this very anecdotal, small thing to close of. I started this work in 2005 of really just devoting myself to learning about sex and relationships, specifically how sex can impact relationships. And, and at the time, the orgasm gap was 3 to 1. For every three orgasms a straight man was having, a straight woman was having one. The orgasm gap is now two to one.

Oh, well, that's good progress.

Very substantial improvement in a relatively short amount of time. I would assume that in Dr. Roots time and for years before that, it was 10 to 1. And that's just the way that it was. So let's keep going.

I think so many women have never had an orgasm. Like, I think that's still very, very true for a lot of women. And I encourage anybody who's listened to this podcast and enjoyed it to just think of Sian when they are feeling a little Bit blocked. I think it's really, really helpful to have role models and people that we look up to in certain areas. And so if you're feeling insecure, shameful, I don't know, just a little bit, like, unsure of how to talk about sex, how to talk about your needs and what you want, just think of Sean and how she communicates.

And to that effect, where can people find you?

Lovers by shan.com that would be wonderful. Thank you guys.

It's been such a pleasure. I really just think you're wonderful at what you do. It's. It's so refreshing when you have someone on who is just so fluent in what they talk about. And I take it as a real compliment from you to talk about the way I put things together, because I think you have a real fluidity with your words and a beautiful way of putting things. You have very powerful metaphors, which I really appreciate because the great metaphor before is, is so powerful in speaking. You're just really, really great at what you do. I know you know that already, but it's just so fun to have someone with us who's so good and we, we have to do more together.

I love that. I would love that. And I just want to say for anybody who's looking at you or myself and being like, how do I get there? You've been in the game for how.

Long now, 18 years?

Yeah, I've been in the game since 2009. So coming up on that amount of time, it's like you talk about the same thing every day. You get really, really good at it. So anybody who's looking at that, just keep talking about it.

Wow. We started like within probably a year of each other. That's insane. Yeah, that's crazy. I don't meet many people like that.

Yeah, we're talking about this morning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep. You keep meeting. I'm like, you talk to people. They're like, I started three years ago. And you're like, wow.

Wow.

You have millions of followers. You did like, like you crushed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. Well, I thank you so, so much for being here. It's such a pleasure. And we'll see you soon.

All right. Congratulations. Thanks.

Thank you. So many people watch videos on YouTube, listen to podcasts, read books, and yet still never quite feel whole. They never feel like their self worth gets to where they want it, it to be. They never feel good enough. They constantly feel like they self sabotage. And it gets to a point in life where we kind of just start to feel broken, like nothing is ever going to change for us. We're never going to be able to escape our own mind, our own insecurities, or the ways that we struggle in life. I created my weekend retreat in October for this exact person to do the the kind of deep work that finally changes things. And the great news is you can join me in Miami. We have tickets available right now, or you can watch it from home with a virtual ticket. It is taking place over the weekend of October 18th and 19th and you can get tickets@mhretreat.com if you can't make it in the room, which you should because there is nothing like being in this room anywhere in the world, make sure at the very least you get a virtual ticket because I promise you these will be two of the most important days you ever spend on your personal growth. Tickets are available now@mhretreat.com and remember, the in the room tickets are limited. We only have so many of them. So if you know you want to join me there in person, grab one while you that's.