107: Untangling Possibility from Reality w/ Melissa Martin

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Everybody. Welcome back to Grief and Guts. I am your host, Melissa Dugalecki and I am so excited to introduce to you an amazing woman who joins us on the podcast today. Melissa Martin is a business and embodiment coach. She is the host of the podcast Bold and Courageous. She is an entrepreneur, digital nomad dog, mom loves her dance parties. So obviously we have a lot in common and in just a few months she's going to be down here in the Tulum swirl. So I am so excited. We were connected by a mutual friend and I think what's really powerful about that is you never know the ripple effect of connecting with humans. And when you choose to be in an environment where you're around high vibrational or people who are like minded doing, you know, doing big things, you just open yourself up to connecting with other vibrations in that space. So though I haven't gotten to meet her in person yet, it is my honor to introduce you all to Melissa. Melissa, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Melissa for having me. Thank you for that beautiful introduction.

You're the first Melissa I've ever had on the show. Oh my gosh, I love it. It's so good. So you know, I would love for you to just let listeners know a little bit about who you be and what you do so they can get a sense for that and then we get to dive into like the juicy stuff around, you know, grief and life change and surrender.

Hmm. Okay. So who I be is a woman who deeply intends to embody the frequency of here I am. Like when I, when I walk into a room, my desire is for people to feel met with a welcomed energy, to feel comfortable in my space, to feel like they can drop in and be vulnerable with me. So I very much lead my life through example. Like I always want to be the example, not the expert. And that's definitely something I've been leaning into more and more of just vulnerably walking my path. And I teach through my own experiences. So that's who I be and what I do or how I came to be in this, in this work was really through a lot of heartache and what I would call defining moments that have continually given me an opportunity to make choices of how I would like to move through those experiences. Right. I believe that every story has a villain and it is the villains role to call the hero into their power. And so you can either choose to stay a victim in that or you can choose to rise up. And so through multiple setbacks in life, I was in the corporate world and I had lost my job and I got into the fitness industry and I got into network marketing and learned a lot about personal development and leadership and business. And my network marketing company that I had built for seven years restructured and I lost my entire income and navigated divorce and then just decided to go full into entrepreneurship. This feeling that I was meant for an even bigger container than I was in in network marketing has led me to where I am today. So teaching the balance of the masculine and the feminine, so the place of creation and alignment and softness and playfulness with the balance of the structure and the systems and the consistency and the rootedness and that's been my life's work.

So beautiful and so many like nuggets in that. But something that I've encountered a lot coaching coaches. Right. Is that there is this pressure, the self induced pressure to be the absolute expert. As though like to be a life coach you have to be Tony Robbins, right?

Yes.

And I just think it's really beautiful to talk a lot about being the example, not the expert and being able to say this is a path and a method and a means in which I have found success and it has taken me to this level. If that aligns with you, you know, like this could be a beautiful co creation and to take this pressure off that we have to come across, like, everything's perfect, we have it all together. Like all of these different things, like, you know, just this whole podcast started because of grief and I've been doing a lot of work in grief and speaking, but I didn't wait to do it until I had was healed because I'm still healing, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's, I think that confidence and imposter syndrome and messy action, there's so many layers to it. Right. And you know, society deems the experts as the ones who are the most confident. Right. Oh, it's, it's very confusing. Right. So you. So we're taught that having the job and having the car and having the titles and the accolades and all those things will, will build confidence for us. But really it's, it's really about manipulating a story of what we want everyone else to think about who we are. And you know, wearing the mask or the shield of, of being the expert does to some extent give us a certain level of confidence. Like we need that. You know, you obviously have a skill that you've learned on how to interview and how to set up a podcast and you've probably made a lot of mistakes. I know I have and you get to a point of self mastery just by taking messy action over and over again. And so it's not to discredit the expert, but when you're leading from a place of needing that validation of I have to be the expert in order for you to tell a specific story about me, because I don't believe that story of who I am, then we're all just kind of walking around in our wounding, needing to be the expert in order to be validated. When you are the example, there's so much freedom in that because there's permission for you to be messy, there's permission for you to be relatable, there's permission for you to be vulnerable. And I think that's the piece of it that is most challenging for people is the vulnerability of, like, if. If people really knew what was going on behind the scenes, what would they think of me? And that, to me, is the root of feeling like an imposter. And I know that I've experienced that in so many different areas of my life. Being like, people think this one thing, but if they really knew that I was a hot mess, what would they. What would they think? And when we can own that truth, a duality of, like, I might be, you know, one day crushing life, and the other day I'm a hot mess. And I can show both sides of that. It becomes a deeper story of how I lead myself through that. Like, I'm not always going to be perfect. Sometimes I'm going to be navigating grief, and I'm going to need to take time for me and to model that to others, to show them that, you know, I don't always have it together, but I can still lead myself through it. I think is more powerful as the example than the person who is the expert and has all the answers and has it all figured out. But really they're hiding behind a wall and just, they want to. They're. They feel like they're falling apart, you know.

So true. And we've had so much evidence of that in our life, like in our society and in our world where we're. We find ourselves shocked right through somebody who we didn't know was struggling. And I just think that, you know, that really resonates particularly as, you know, a lot of the community here. It's like a mix of business owners and a mix of those navigating grief. Right. But the truth is, in growing a business, there's a lot of grieving aspects that go to it.

Yeah, yeah. Grief is definitely an Interesting experience. And for me, my first experience with grief, I didn't know that I was experiencing grief, so maybe I'll share two points of view. The first experience that I had with what I would call traditional grief was when my older sister passed from leukemia. She was 26. I was just shy of my 21st birthday. It had been about 18 months that she had been, you know, navigating this challenge with leukemia. And I think it was such a gift to be in that experience with her, knowing that she was facing her own death, knowing that she was terminal, and to have the ability to navigate that grief alongside her versus, like, her suddenly dying. Like, I think there was a gift in that. And I met with a grief counselor through hospice after, and I was introduced to, you know, the phases of grief, and it helped me to bring some sort of understanding to my emotional rollercoaster. But the. The fir. My real first experience with grief that I didn't know was grief was when my relationship with my father changed. You know, I had grown up as, like, a daddy's girl, and I did everything with him, and he could do no wrong in my eyes, until I started to become a lot more aware of the humanness of who he was and the. How flawed he was and how manipulative and abusive, and just all of these different facets of his personality started coming into my awareness. And so he fell off the pedestal, and the relationship shifted, and we're now estranged, which is not something that I'm unhappy about. It's actually better this way. But there was a grieving process that was happening that I didn't even know how to process at that time. But when I look back at it, I'm like, wow, I truly had to go through this long process of grieving. The change in the dynamic of the relationship that I had with my dad, of, like, fantasizing that he was someone that he really wasn't. And I think this happens a lot with relationships. I mean, it's a pattern that's played out in my entire life with men of, like, projecting my idea of who they are and living in the potential versus being rooted in the reality. And when the reality and the potential don't line up, there's so much conflict. And when you finally get to the point where you're like, this is the reality, there is a grieving process that happens because that version of the person that you've just created in your mind that never was real is gone.

Of course we're sourcing this. I've been having massive conversations around this lately, you know, my vision is to be a stand for possibility, right? And I see what is possible for people so deeply without needing these quick fixes or these fads. Now, the dark side of that, my shadow side, is that while that can really serve me professionally, personally, if I'm in the what's possible versus the what's right here, right now, what's the reality? Right? There's a disconnect and there's a gap, and so you're speaking into just lands so deeply was literally in a conversation about this last night with my own coach. And so, of course, here it is coming up.

Of course.

But there is a grieving element to it. And I actually voiced that last night. I was like, I'm experiencing grief, and it's okay, right? But for a lot of you listening, like, understanding that grief is so much more complex and universal than how it's traditionally thought of as death or loss of life, right? You talked about defining moments, and many times defining moments come with a grieving element, right? But grieving the relationship that you thought you had with your father, right? And grieving, like, the letting go, the releasing of what you've seen seem possible, maybe in partners or certain relationships. It's a really intricate process that's a lot less talked about, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is. And. And I. I've seen it come up. When I was laid off from my corporate career in 2012, there was a identity that it was tied up in, in that. That I had worked so hard to build. And I think a lot of people have these identities that they're walking around really, like, holding onto. And when outside circumstances remove that identity, there's this feeling of, like, who am I? Like, who do I be in this world? Who am I without the job title, or without being this person's wife, or without being a mother or no longer having my business? We place so much value in these identities that when they're taken away or they're removed, there's a death that happens there. And I very much experienced that when I lost my job, because I was like, if I'm not this, then who am I? What do I do? And when we got the call that our network marketing company was going to restructure, it was, like, unimaginable. It'd be like being in a relationship with someone that you are so in love with, and then you find out they have a completely separate life and they're married with kids somewhere else. Like, it's like your nervous system is like, can't even calibrate to it. And I remember going through that process and having enough self awareness to say, okay, I need to sit with this for a few days and allow myself to like, go through the waves, because it is like waves of emotion. And that experience helped me to see grief and like to connect the dots on grief in such a different way that it wasn't just about someone dying, but it is about this loss of identity or this loss of connection or a loss of an expectation or an agreement changing and being able to like, hold myself through it.

Oh, agreement changing. I think that one is so universal in the sense of we make agreements with ourselves and we make them with others, and we can make them in intention, in truth and integrity, but we are all also allowed to evolve and things can shift. And so while we may set an intention or make a declaration out of integrity, sometimes we don't give ourselves permission to actually let that go and release it because we feel as though we're quitting, we're giving up or we're out of integrity. But truthfully, that's a conversation of force or fear rather than one of surrender, flow, trust, expansion, possibility.

Yeah, integrity is such an interesting thing. Integrity to me is honoring my values at all times. And if my values evolve and I'm no longer upholding them, then I'm out of integrity. This has come up a lot for me in coaching. So something that is really important to me with my clients is an equal energy exchange, as I'm sure it's the same for you. Right. And in order for there to be an equal energy exchange, I have to be fully present and I have to be able to serve. And there have been moments where I was navigating things that, like navigating my divorce or moving across the country or being sick or whatever it is where I could, you know, hustle through. And this is an old identity that I have done a lot of work like this hustle culture. So I could. I could make it happen. I could show up, but the whole time I would be on the call, I would be. My mind would be in other places, my nervous system wouldn't be regulated, my channel wouldn't be open, I wouldn't be fully present. And so although my word and my commitment is to. To uphold, like to show up for the call, I'm out of integrity because I'm not showing up in a way that's actually in service to my client. And they're actually not getting the best version of me. And so there's always a conversation that comes up when it comes to your word is law. Right. I do believe your word is law, but also like, and also the way in which you deliver your word is also law. So I've had a few instances where I've had to communicate to clients. Like, I know that we have a scheduled call at this time. However, I'm currently navigating something that is going to keep me from delivering on my value proposition to you as a client. And therefore I need to move this call because it's not going to be in service to you. And it's certainly not. Nobody wins. Like it's a lose lose when I'm out of service to myself and then I'm out of service to you because I'm resentful for even being on the call, you know?

Right, yeah, no, that really hits me. I think it really relates to the masculine and feminine dance that you were referencing earlier, which I talk a lot about too. Like, yes, there's like the commitment and there's that, you know, the declaration. And I think it's also about patterns. Like if a coach or a partner or somebody is continually not, you know, maintaining their word. That's different than. And I've had that same conversation. Hey, where I'm at right now, for me to best serve, it would be in our best interest to look at tomorrow. Would that work for you? Right. And you know, I also for me personally, I have like a, like a one time like human policy either way, Right. Client does that, we don't lose the meeting. I do it once, it's fine, we reschedule. But if it happens either way, like if for some reason I have two things come up or whatever it may be, I'm tacking on an additional meeting. Right. Because that's how I feel, as though we're maintaining the commitment to what we say. But it is interesting when I, when I think about like when, you know, the allowance of the grief of the relationships or the life or the business that we envision for ourselves when we started and that we really wanted and that really means a lot and that people are excited about and that it works and all of that, but the grieving of like allowing that to go when that's not what is best serving you and allowing it to be that beautiful chapter of your, your time, your experience. Like, you know, my former partner I thought was going to be my forever partner, as you know, I'm sure you did when you got married. Right? I wasn't married, but we were together for seven years, you know, and Had a child. So I really thought that was going to be my forever partner. And in giving myself the permission to leave, it was this whole other layer of just the grief of the relationship, but the grieving of what I had seen possible. And I'm not sure if that resonates for you, but.

Oh, for sure, it 100% resonates. And, I mean, I went through the same thing with. Within my marriage of, like, wanting so badly for something that wasn't there and doing everything in my power to try and force it. And then there's this. You get to this surrender of, like, it's. You know, it's not. It's. It's. I can't. I can't. I can't make this happen. Right. Especially in relationships. Right. It takes. It takes two. And I know for me, that was one of the things that I'm most proud of, really, is how my ex and I navigated the transition of our marriage. And it was in a very loving way. And there was boundaries set and there was expectations set, and I, um. On the other side, it was really confusing. And I want to anchor this because I think that grief is obviously a really nuanced thing, and everyone experiences it differently. And also, you don't have to stay in it. And I. I remember when I. It was, like, one month after I had moved from New York to California, ended my marriage, I was at an event, and the facilitator and I were really good friends, and she said, how are you doing? And I was like, I'm really confused because on the one hand, I'm really sad about this thing ending, and I'm grieving and my heart aches. And also I'm really excited at the same time of all the space and the possibility and the potential for what's yet to come. And it was confusing. I almost felt, like, the sense of guilt, of being excited when, like, this thing had just happened. And, you know, for those people that have lost someone or, you know, have gone through this experience of. Of dying, of someone dying, there does come with it some sense of shame that if I'm out celebrating life and having fun, that I'm wrong for it. You know, so there's this, like, weird undercurrent of guilt that. That can sometimes come in that, like, you should be in mourning and you should be wearing black and you should be miserable and you should be sullen, but at the same time, like, maybe you're authentically excited about not having to care for this person anymore. If it was 24, 7 and you were exhausted and now you have your life back. Like, you also get to feel that. And I, and, and yeah, so it can. I. I know for me, it felt like I was, like, really confused about, like, am I allowed to feel excited? Like, this feels weird, you know?

Yeah. I remember after my daughter Layden passed, like, I would, I didn't want to be happy because in my mind, being happy would mean that I moved on. I didn't want, like, I, I. Emotionally and nervous system wise, I couldn't be in crowds and I couldn't be in music or concerts or any of that. When I got to the place where I was able to, I had a lot of fear of judgment. And when I first started talking about grief and putting the podcast out there, I had a lot of fear of judgment that people were going to say, oh, look at, she's happy about this, right? Or, oh, she's monetizing off of. You know what I mean? And very irrational. Or if somebody is saying that they're not, they're not even near a vibrational frequency in which I want to be associated with, which is fine. But I, I think you bring up a really good point that we get to give ourselves permission to both feel. It's like the both and like to both feel the pain of the loss. But it can, it's not an either or that can coexist with the possibility, the excitement, the trust.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's interesting when you really start to dig into it and it kind of comes back to what I was sharing earlier about, like, being the expert versus being the example and other people's projections onto you of, like, what it looks like. Everyone's experience is so nuanced. And if someone's going to judge you for celebrating life because that's what death teaches us, then that's their work to do. Right. But when you're in it, it doesn't always feel that way.

I know, and it's interesting. I heard you, you say, you know, many times we try and force it or will it? Like, and I can look back at past versions of myself who did that. So if that's you, if anyone listening is like, am I forcing it or willing that, like, really just check in, like, take some space to reflect on that. But I, I tried really hard to make, you know, to force in my work, in my relationship, in my fitness even. Right. And the truth is, is that we know when we're doing it. We just, it takes us being ready to see it and ready to grieve and release. And your vibrational frequency, though, will radiate that. And what's funny is, like, a lot of the things that I thought were a surprise to everyone else, you know, like, oh, I'm making this change that wasn't in alignment or that wasn't that. Everyone's like, yeah, we know. You know, like, you think it's so hidden. Right. But just vibrationally, when we're from a place of willing or forcing or whatever that may be that's felt.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. 100 someone.

What advice do you have for somebody who is at, like, a defining moment right now or looking at, is this something I let go? Right. Or if I do, how do I do it? Like, how would you support somebody in navigating those defining moments that might have an underlying grief element?

Hmm. So the thing that I have found continually throughout my life, anytime I find myself in a crossroads or a decision of, like, I want to shift from one paradigm to another, I have, like, a little, not a little. I don't want to minimize it. I have a very powerful framework that you can walk yourself through. And with anything, it doesn't matter what it is. Right. And it all starts with taking a moment to pause and become really present to what is here right now and really, like, getting curious about the experience. Like, so, wow, I'm feeling this inner conflict, right? There's this duality of, like, do I stay? Do I go? I feel confused. I feel one day I'm happy, one day I'm sad. And so just really bringing presence and pausing to the current experience. Because I think it's so easy for us to just bypass it with overworking or numbing out or being around people or, like, whatever our coping strategies are. So that's number one. And then the second thing is just really take an opportunity to observe the stories that are coming up. Like, what is the story that you're telling about? Whatever your decision is, what is the story? Like, what are the rules that you're playing by? I can't tell you how many times I've been like, I didn't even make these rules, and I can change them, but I just didn't know. It's like that graphic of the elephant, the giant elephant that has the, like, shackle tied to them that they just didn't know. They don't know their own strength, right? And I think a lot of times we walk around with blinders on, not realizing, like, we're playing by someone else's rules. So you really do need to dig into where is this story coming from? Whose beliefs am I wearing? A lot of times it's from childhood or things that we've seen other people model for us. And once you have that presence and you can observe the stories, then you can start to choose with power. What is something different? Like, what would I choose for myself if no one would be upset with me? I could play by my own set of rules. I could have whatever I want if I were showing up 100% as myself and I knew that no one would abandon me. Like, what is that so story that I could start to welcome in. What is that version of me? And how would that version of me take action from here? And that's where once you know that, this is where a lot of people get stuck. They have the knowing. They're like, oh, I know I could be doing something different, or I know that this isn't serving me, but I'm not really willing or able or confident enough to do anything about it. And so the embodiment piece. Piece is where we take our words and our actions and they are congruent. And that's when we really do embody our truth. We embody our vulnerability. We lead by example. And then the last piece is really to release and rejoice. So releasing is all about forgiveness. Is there someone that you need to forgive for being the villain in your story? Maybe it's even parts of yourself that didn't know better. You just didn't have the tools then that you have now. And the rejoicing really comes in celebrating the small little micro wins, like being able to recognize a pattern and choosing something different. Or maybe it's giving yourself permission to say, I need to take a beat because I'm feeling this kind of way. And then nurturing yourself through your grief experience versus the old version of you that would just drink or numb out or overwork or just stuff it down. Right, right. So that's an acronym for power, and it's pause, observe, welcome, embody, release, and rejoice.

Oh, that's so juicy. I love it.

I love a good framework. It's like my love language.

Oh, it's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And it's a. It's a beautiful map.

Right?

Because it's something that can allow people, no matter what their experience is, to flow within that framework and structure. So again, like that balance and dance of the masculine and feminine, which I know, like, we both really like, just feel so called to speaking into, especially as women in entrepreneurship, because you get to have both Right, Totally, totally.

And I've. Yeah, I think that too far in one or the other creates an imbalance, but having that harmony between the two is the. It's just everything. And it all rises and falls on self. Radical self awareness, truly.

Something else I have a question on is you spoke into how sometimes we're making a decision out of wounds or childhood, Right? And you know, they say a lot of the times, and I believe this, but you are presented the lesson until you learn it. You're presented until you learn it. You're presented it until you learn it. Right. And sometimes I'm like, am I still learning this lesson? Right. But when you learn it or when you heal, that can actually be the defining moment or the catalyst of a chosen grief. Right. And I did an episode, you know, a little bit back on chosen grief. Meaning I'm leaving this state, I'm leaving this career, I'm leaving this relationship. Because you're ultimately complete and being complete. Oh, I just got goosebumps. So being complete, meaning we have healed or learned exactly what we need to heal and learn from this person, from this job, from this home. But the. The fear of letting go often stops people. So how would you support somebody in identifying and knowing when they are complete with something, they can have the courage to continue forward?

That's such a good question. One of my favorite quotes from I think it's the fray is sometimes the hardest things and the right thing are the same. And it's something that has, like, walked with me through so many experiences of, like, I know at a very deep level that this is the truth, but what's keeping me is what my truth is going to unravel on the other side. And that's where we meet ourselves in our codependency and in our people pleasing in our truth. And I think a lot of people, myself included, walk around in that knowing of, like, I know this is over. I know this is complete. But the. The pain of staying in something that feels out of integrity isn't nearly as bad, at least in that moment, as the pain of what would come on the other side of my truth. And eventually you get to a point where, like, you either live with that or you don't. And I know for me, every single time it's been like, I literally cannot continue to live a fake life. Like, I cannot pretend anymore because it's exhausting. And I feel like you either get to a point where you decide you want something different or you don't. And for me, when I. That was my Marriage, like, that was one of the most difficult decisions because I was living in that potential so much, and I loved this person deeply, and I didn't want to hurt them, and I didn't want to hurt my family. But I knew within my body, like, everything was signaling, like, this is wrong. This is out of integrity. And so when you're making decisions like that, I really feel like it's important to have support. I had a therapist, you know, I had people that I could go to that could hold me in my experience and guide me through what is my truth and reinforce that for me. So I had a soft place, place to land, you know, so when you're navigating big decisions like that that have, you know, repercussions on the back end, making sure you're well supported, whether that's through a therapist or a professional or someone that can walk you through that, I think is everything. And really being able to get to the root of your truth and. And communicate it from a place of what is my truth? Right. I believe that in dynamics such as this, like, you can have a truth, I can have a truth, and we're both right. And so being willing to stay in your truth without making someone else wrong is, like, the hardest thing in the world to do. But when you do it, like, you walk with power. That's personal power, right? It's like, I'm going to do this anyway. Like, I know it's going to be hard. I'm going to walk myself through it.

Oh, so good. So, I mean, I could feel, like, the emotion running through my body right now. And so I always remind any listener, like, you know, when you listen to a podcast episode or you're at a course or you're anything, trust that whatever is landing with you or you're feeling is exactly what you need to hear in this moment, right? And everyone can listen to the same episode and take away something different. So I just. I always like to share that reminder. All right, I have just a couple more questions for you.

Okay.

I feel like we could just go all day.

I know.

On the flip side of that, have you had experience with or supported others when, Ugh, here's the emotion. When something feels incomplete, but yet you have to let it go, right? And so what comes to mind for me is, like, well, one, when I think about, like, my daughter, like, that felt incomplete, right? A lot of people might have, like, a sudden loss, right? And it felt incomplete. Now, I have come over time to believe that my daughter's mission was complete, which has taken me a long time to say that. But other times when you can see. And this is probably coming back to the possibility conversation, Melissa, like, when you can see that possibility, you can see what's there, but particularly if it's a company or a relationship or someone else where you don't have full control. And my intuitive coach always talks to me about there's what's available to the soul and the soul's mission, and there's human choice and ego and free will. And so when you can feel at the soul level, something actually isn't complete, but in the way in which it is unfolding through, like, free will, let's say it's not serving. And that to me is like, almost. That's a whole other layer, like, to leave something that doesn't feel incomplete when you see what's possible. But you know that in the. Right here, right now, in the reality where we're at, it's not serving you in your highest. Mm.

So what's coming up for me, there's a few things that are. That are coming up for me, as I hear you say that. And thank you for sharing that. Our relationship to completedness can feel like that living in potential versus what's in reality. So the reality is it's complete whether we decide that it is or not in this situation. Right. That's complete. And I think the not readiness is missing out on every experience that could have happened. Like seeing her take her first steps or going to kindergarten or her prom and, like, all of these things. Right. And my. Like, where my mind goes to that is that those experiences can still be had in other ways. It might not look the way that you would have wanted because you were attached to it happening in that one way, but if you open yourself up to the magic of being in those experiences looking a little bit different, I think you can find completedness in different ways. So what I mean by that is it's kind of like similar to manifestation. Right. And Steve Jobs says, you can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect the dots looking back. Right. You have no idea what's going to happen in 20 years and what other experiences you're going to have that you wouldn't have had if something had had worked out in the way that you wanted. Right. And I know I've experienced this in my life, too, so many times where I, like, in the moment I was fighting for something to happen and it didn't happen, and I was getting so frustrated. And then hindsight, I'm like, oh, it makes sense now, because then I was being set up for something different. So my point is, like, with manifestation and surrender, like, if you're an A type person and you're even in grief, the idea of surrender is, like, really frustrating for somebody who likes to know things. And I'm Capricorn, so I'm like, I want to know everything right now. So surrender, to me, felt like giving up control. And that's not at all what it is. Surrender is holding on to the feeling of the thing being complete. How that happens is unknown to us, but we want to micromanage the. The roadmap to how that happens versus allowing the universe to deliver it in this or something better. So the best analogy I could give is imagine buying a ticket to a magic show, and you walk in and you sit down, and the magician says, for my first trick, I'm going to saw this woman in half. And you're like, there is no way that that is possible. And then you watch it, and you still have no idea how it happened, but you know that it happened because you saw it and you're delighted and you're amazed, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I bought this ticket and the universe showed me all these amazing things, but I have no idea how it happened. It would be a very different experience if you bought that ticket and you knew exactly how every single trick was going to happen. It wouldn't feel as fun. It would lose its magic. And if you leaned over the person next to you and be like, this is how it's going to happen, you would ruin it for them too. Right? And so things can feel incomplete in that container, but it doesn't mean that there isn't the potential for it to be completed in other ways. And I think this is what happens when people get into relationships. They're like, I'm never going to find someone as good as him, or no one will ever love me as. As good as that, or I'll never be able to have these experiences. And I'm gonna. I'm just about to turn 43, and I am navigating the possibility that I. I won't be a mom. And I've had to face that, right? Or that I won't ever be an auntie. And this is. That one is probably the one that's a little bit more stings, a little bit more of that. Like, my sister's gone, so I'll never be an auntie, right? And then I start playing in the field of possibility and being open to that experience, even though my logical mind says, well, that can't happen. And my best friend has a daughter, and I end up living with them. I've known her since the moment she's born, and she calls me auntie, and I have this amazing relationship with her. She's the most incredible human, and seeing life through her eyes is one of the most amazing gifts I could ever have. And so biologically, she might not be my actual niece, but I get to still have that experience with her because I've opened myself up to. It's not how I pictured it, but it's exactly how it was meant to be. And going into, like, the dating world and being open to dating men that have children, like, I might not ever have my own children, but that doesn't mean that I have to miss out on those experiences. And so it's up to me to open my heart to getting that vision completed in a different way.

Oh, I love that. And I think it's also. It's more about the energetics than necessarily the definitions, the ways in which we've defined things that can be constraining. Right. Or limited. Or we can only see it. But can we access that energy.

Right.

Of being an auntie. Right. Because you might have an even closer relationship than maybe I do with one of my aunts. Do you know what I mean? Or like, you just never know. I love all my aunts, for the record. Right. But I think that's really powerful. And being in the surrender and the release of it has to look this way or it won't happen, which is that tunnel vision. And only in letting go of that tunnel vision do we open up to being able to receive and experiencing it, like you said, in magic ways that we can't quite see and we don't know how it's going to go.

Yeah, it's like, what was the thing that you were really attached to? Like, if we could take you're. And I'm not saying this to minimize the experience, right? But like, if it's in terms of relationships or a job or the death of someone, if you were to remove that person from the equation, the desire is what, like, what is the big picture? Like, in relationship, it's partnership and community. In a job or career, it might be fulfillment and an impact and purpose. In having a child, it might be legacy and a deeper sense of purpose there as well. Right. So the intention is that this container was created for me to experience this in my life. But if we. If we remove the person and we open ourselves up to. This is my intention. This is the desire that I have. I want to feel what it would feel like to be nurturing, to be mothering, to be supportive or to be loved, to be a partner. Like, where can we fulfill that need in other ways versus, like you said, like this really strict paradigm of rules and attachment to one thing.

Yep. It's so good. And I think, you know, as we, as we give everyone plenty of things to chew on and marinate in and just, you know, really just allow to flow through you, I want to really close with that. Whether it's in grief of something you've lost or in the pursuit of something you desire, what is the energy that you're actually chasing to experience? What is it that you're seeking to create in a feeling or in an emotional energetic experience? And can you be open so that being available in many places of your life and in many ways do that? We really are in our power and we really do get to see all the possibility of the magic show of this world, this universe.

Retweet.

Melissa, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find you? Where can they get more of your magic and your wisdom and just your embodiment?

Thank you so much for, for having me and for creating such a beautiful space to have these types of conversations. I think it's so important to be able to. To open that up. So thank you. I love hanging out on Instagram. It's my favorite platform, so you can find me at themelissamartin. I'm hessamartin on all the places, but Instagram is the place that I. That I hang out the most.

Love ourselves. Little Instagram.

Love the gram.

All right, Melissa, we might have to get a part two because I feel like it's just the beginning. Thank you so much for coming and we'll talk soon.

Thank you.

Thank you all so much for being here at Grief and Guts as Layden's mom, being able to spread the stories, the strategies, the lessons I have learned through Layden and from Layden is the thing that means the most to me in this world and allowing my daughter shortly life to have long and lasting impact by shining her light. Truly, nothing means more if you align with and believe in the work that we're doing here in these messages. The best way to give back and to spread this out into the world is to rate and review on Spotify and on itunes. Thank you for taking just a moment to do that. Feel free to shoot me a message. Let me know what you want to hear more of, what you want to see more of. I am here to serve and grow grateful to do so. And I'm cheering you on in your journeys, always.