119: Lessons from Grief w/ Mike Michalowicz

Foreign.

Welcome to Grief and Guts. I'm your host, Melissa Dugulecki. It is my honor and privilege to serve you by sharing stories, tools, interviews and strategies that will help you transition from what do I do now? How do I get through this? Those feelings of overwhelm and uncertainty to truly standing in your power. From my grief journey in losing my daughter laden in 2014 that I learned, practiced, was exposed to all these tools, but they are not grief specific. In fact, they apply universally to all of our unique situations. You've already done the hard part by showing up, by opening up to something new. So without any further ado, let's get to the good stuff that's going to help you in your journey. Let's dive in. Okay. Today's guest is an absolute rock star. I am so excited to have him here on the podcast and actually it's his second time on. Yet so much has changed since the very first episode in which you were introduced to Mike Michalowicz, who I am so humbled and honored to call not only a friend, but a mentor and now in, in a way, a book publishing partner. His story is amazing. It will absolutely resonate with you. You know, we're going to get into rock bottom moments, how you bounce back, shifting perspectives of grief and just all the unfoldings of life. So without any further ado, please join me in welcoming multiple New York Times bestselling author, pioneer in books and services for entrepreneurs, Mike Michalowicz.

I can't wait to see you in person again. It's been too long, but we've been spent a lot of time on Zoom, which is nice, but just looking forward to seeing you and spending some time drinking coffee together. You know, you were talking about those moments. I look forward to doing that with you soon.

Oh, I can't wait. Thank you. And actually, Mike, as I was thinking back to when we first met, it was March of 2020. And you know, I want the listeners to hear about your story and your journey, but I want to also frame it with being open to the synchronicities and the opportunities and the unexpected things that life can present if we're open to seeing them. Because I essentially went to get certified in the profit first method and from just the conversation and the seemingly passing by moment, learned about your event. Author up told you about my daughter Layden and my writing. And then that was the next iteration of us working together. And then you consulted on our business and then now we're publishing, we're working on a book together.

Yeah. And I, I cannot, you know, this, I cannot wait for your book. It's the ultimate, I think respect and honor for Laden. But it's also, I think the biggest gift that Layton gave you is this mission. I think it wasn't desirous. It's not like, oh, you know, I want to do this, but perhaps it was thrust upon you but in such a way it can be of service to so many people. Admittedly, I did not get it, really get it. When we first met you something came here to my offices in New Jersey and we spent time together and I knew the story, but I didn't get the story. And I'm not sure when it hit me, but a moment came, I felt an internal emotional shift saying, oh, this is more than just a horrible experience you went through. This is also a necessary gift, something that can serve others. I felt I was like, wow, you know, it's such a privilege to be working with you and you know, this just, I'm not sure if you're listening audience. You got like a mainstream publishing deal, which is really freaking hard. It's really freaking hard for a first time author in this environment because you have a compelling story, but you have a proven path to navigate grief that's, that's uncommon, is not used. And I think that's why you got picked up. I see. I get it and very soon the world's going to get it.

Thank you so much for that and oh, it means so much. I can't wait to get more into the book and everything. My purpose and I hadn't told them it got picked up by a mainstream publisher. So thank you for sharing that. As we're talking about this becoming my purpose, it was my rock bottom moment and it's something that I really related to you when I first began studying your work, which was after I lost my daughter Laden and you shared, you know, what was a rock bottom moment for you and so would you share with the listeners like maybe what you went through, what you navigated and how you turn that into something positive?

Sure, I'll give a little preamble. What I've discovered is in retrospect sometimes those rock bottom moments are your greatest moments. And in reverse sometimes I'm looking back at some of my great moments where I thought I was doing well and actually now look at, oh, maybe that was not so good. So I'll get both perspectives. So for me, one of my rock bottom moments, the big one was in 2008. Leading up to this, I had built and sold some businesses My ego was out of control, I don't think outwardly, but I don't know, I'm sure it was perceived, but inwardly for sure. And I think that's the most insidious version. Perhaps it's even narcissism. I thought I was better than other people. I was like, oh my God, I'm so success. I'm such a great entrepreneur, I can crush it. So I started another business. Like I'm gonna be an angel investor and start all these businesses simultaneously so I can really crush it. And during that process, while I had become a self made millionaire in my 30s, I lost everything through just arrogance and ego in this new business. And in 2008, my daughter, who you know well now, her name is Adela, she was nine years old at the time. And I came home to my house to tell my wife, my children, that we're going to lose our house, we're going to lose everything. Because my accountant called me that morning and saying, you're out of cash and you can't afford to pay your taxes, so declare bankruptcy or liquidate. And declaring bankruptcy, I think on a moral ground, I didn't want to do it because I'm now putting responsibility on creditors for my own mismanagement of cash. Yeah, they're big credit cards and other things, but I still don't think it's their responsibility of mine. Also, bankruptcy sits on your record for a long time. So my ego stopped me from doing that. I'm grateful for that. But liquidate. So got out of our house. We got rid of the cars, my wife, we had one family truck. It was a beat up blue Durango. I love that hunk of rust. It's all we could afford. Our neighbors actually lent us their house because they knew we were in financial sprays. I put us in that position. They were leaving for a international sabbatical for a business trip for a year or two. And they said, take the house. They saved us. They kept us in the community so Adela, my other children could keep going to school. On that day, when I told my wife my kids were losing everything, I was sobbing. Adela ran to her bedroom, grabbed her piggy bank and she ran back to me and said, daddy, I'll provide for us because you can't anymore. And I'm getting emotional now. I was ashamed and embarrassed myself. I was proud of her. Oh my God, what have I gotten us into? I went subsequent to that through multiple years of depression, self diagnosed. I never saw therapy. I started to drink. I looked forward to Drinking to, you know, relax, quote, unquote, medicate. I never fall asleep hoping that I wouldn't wake up. Not. That's not suicidal thought. That was just simply like, literally just keep sleeping. Because when you're sleeping, then I'm not worrying. I got red blotches on my face. I went through all this stuff, but in retrospect, it's. It's the greatest gift. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I know you wouldn't wish asking if someone's child on your worst enemy, but. Or I should say, in addition, it was a gift in perspective. And I understood what ultimately I needed to teach that my entrepreneurial journey wasn't so unique. A lot of people lose it. Some people never quote, unquote, make it. And it's very common. And now that I've experienced it, I committed to resolve it, first for myself and then ultimately for others. I just wanted to share one other story because when I thought I was successful in retrospect, now I'm like, oh, my God, maybe I wasn't. So my first couple of businesses, I was building them. I was like, my gosh, I got this figured out. I am a genius. And it's that ego that make. Oh, that highlight actually may be the rock bottom moment. My rock bottom moment may be the highlight. It may actually be reversed. In this uber confidence, this ego, I felt a need to show off, and I'm ashamed of that now. I literally thought I was better than other people. That's disgusting. That's a rock bottom moment. And hope I've resolved that. But this is how interesting in retrospect, perspective changes. I guess that's why there's retrospective perspective in looking back. Like, oh, it's the opposite of what I believed in the moment.

I think that's so powerful to point out how the rock bottom could be like the highlight moment and those highlights can actually be the rock bottom. Because sometimes when those highlights or those big achievements are sourced in ego or society or what people externally are thinking of you rather than what's internally happening. Yeah, it is. It's all ego.

I think I need to be very careful of comparison, too. I think it's very easy to say that the challenges I faced were deeper than others and shallower than others. But to put myself or for you or for anyone who puts themselves on the scale, where's my grief, Frank? Like, oh, that's a bad move. Because we either disqualify our grief or we amplify our grief. And I don't think either are appropriate. But I remember doing that, like looking at other people who had lost in their lives or challenges or whatever and saying, well, thank God that wasn't me. My grief's not that bad, or they don't get it. But the reality is we're all, while we're all going through a life journey on this planet together, we're all going through our own individual life journey. And grief can't be, in my opinion, ranked. You and I were talking about losing a job, and that could be just as deeply painful as losing all of your money, which could be just as deeply painful as anything else. I think what I've done now is I realize I was grieving. I didn't think I was in the time. I'm like, oh, this isn't grief. This is just a shitty situation and screw the world. But no, I was going through the pain and acknowledging it has been very. Not just cathartic, but more than that, it's. It's put me in a position to serve it. You know, the reason I became an author, I think the reason you've become an author is not first and foremost to teach, but first and foremost to learn. The best student is always the teacher. And if we can teach it, we master the healing for ourselves. Every book I write, you know, I've written, written a lot. And I don't foresee me ever stopping. I'm actually trying to fix something I don't really get. I didn't really know how to be profitable. I don't really get how to operate a team. And I don't really know how to sell or run efficiently. Think I do, but if I think I do, I know I'm probably missing something. I'm blind to something. So these deep investigations give me a new truth in many of these categories for business. Something then that I start living by. And then once it's of service to me and it's working at least better than before, that's when I start distributing it, which then causes this kind of backward loop of reinforcing it. You imagine the guy who wrote Prop first says, well, you need it, but I don't like you imagine me not doing it. So it's, it's a great accountability and learning mechanism is what we teach, what we write.

Yeah, I speak so much into embodiment. Whereas when you're a teacher and a coach in the space, and let's be honest, it is the fastest growing industry right now. And you know, teaching, coaching, like online, you know, like, and. But many times I say like, If. If you want people to invest in you, but you're not willing to invest in you, you're out of alignment. Like, and so it's very much what you're speaking into. Like, if you want. If you want anyone to, you know, do something or be something that you're not willing to do or be, there's a lack of alignment and embodiment there. So it's just not going to work. And so what you're speaking into is like, I embody the profit first method. I live it. Right, Right. I learned it, I discovered it. I'm mastering it. I'm still mastering it. And from that space, I can stand for other people to implement it as well.

You know, going back to that point, there are so many coaches. Yeah, it's exploding because it's an easy label to assume. But I think the qualifier for someone who can coach is multiple, and I think they play in concert. One is, have they gone through the experience that they're coaching? I'm not saying that's necessary, but if they've gone through the experience, there is a visceral or emotional attachment. And humans aren't logical. At least we're not primarily logical. We're more emotional, behavioral. So understanding that is critical. I have members of our organization for Profit first who, when we first started out, we didn't mandate they install Profit first in their own business. We just assumed they probably would. And they started teaching it, and they were having this failure rate that I couldn't believe. Like, why are so many accountants and bookkeepers unable to get their clients successfully running props first? And we discovered, well, those accountants and bookkeepers weren't running themselves when they did. They understood it from this kind of visceral level. And they could communicate about that. They could talk about the emotions and relate to it. That relatability is huge. So I think a coach that's gone through the experience has an emotional EQ that's superior to someone that hasn't. I think the other qualifier is, have they successfully coached other people? Yeah, like, just because you've gone through it, it's funny. Like, someone's like, I want to be a better swimmer. Should I hire the person with a why that teaches swimming? Or Michael Phelps? I think a lot of people say, Michael Phelps, look how great he swims. Michael Phelps is an extraordinary swimmer. That does not make him a great coach. His body was gifted to him to be designed to be like a fish, but it doesn't mean he can coach better than the person. The Y who's coached 50s people. So the second perspective I have with coaches is, yeah, they've been there and done that. They have a visceral connection. But are they capable of translating the knowledge they have to others? Because there's a building process. You just don't say, you know, Michael Phelps could say, just swim like an animal, eat 7,000 calories a day. That's what you need to do. Maybe. But it starts off smaller and incrementally. There's a building process, and the best coaches do it repeatedly, and they observe what works for, you know, the common approach, what everyone can benefit from, and then also has ability to tweak the system, saying, oh, you have unique needs here. The other person doesn't say, there's tweaking ability. And then thirdly, and this is definitely a bias here, but someone who can codify what they teach. So not only they've been through it, not only do they teach others, but they can document it. And the bias here is because I'm an author. You're an author. Wouldn't you want to be an author, too? Like, authors, not all at the same level, but can codify. Now, it doesn't have to be through a bug. It can be through some kind of scripting or some other way of teaching it. But once we can take an idea and make it accessible just through the written word and maybe some other flavors of that spoken word, I think then they have a unique ability to boil things out to the effective essence. So, yeah, coaching is common, and unfortunately, it's abused. I think very few people are qualified, and I just invite people to consider those three elements. And again, you don't have to have all three. I know extraordinary coaches who have never done or had the experience. Recently I saw online of a football coach for high school. They're a prolifically successful team coach, never played football. He doesn't have legs or arms. He was born with a deformity. So he has a torso, but without legs and arms. Therefore, he didn't play football. But he's passionate about the sport and he's extraordinary at coaching and teaching. They've had wild success. So again, you don't have to have all three, but I would always consider those three elements.

Yeah, it's so funny because I don't think we've ever spoken about this, but I have an entire course which is just in the bathroom. Yeah, it's called OTC Certification Online Teaching and Coaching. Because when I got into the space, I saw exactly that. And then people are putting their money and trusting and Investing in others who maybe aren't fully qualified or they're making it about their process or their journey or their ego rather than being in service. And in the online teaching and coaching certification program, I brought in my master's of education, I brought in my life coaching certification, I brought in my communication background. And then also to your point. Exactly. And not just making it about your experience, because I would see so many. Let's just take a fitness coach, for example. I know we're like, we're detouring, but that's what we do. It's okay. I know we can't really detour when we didn't have a roadmap anyway, so. But, you know, a fitness coach might say, well, here's what I did. Follow my exact script. And to your point in what you said, an effective coach is able to say, here's the basic structure of what we're doing and here's how we're going to look at the data or the feedback or your needs and make sure that this is what works for you, because it's going to be different for everybody. And I built an entire curriculum because background in education, background in coaching, went into this space and saw like. And it wasn't even necessarily that a lot of coaches in the space don't want to be effective. They don't even realize that these are important components. But I do think that's a level of responsibility if you're going to be into the space, you know, running a business, making this like your life's work of service to take ownership of. How am I sourcing what a person needs?

Many times I've seen the best coaches, teachers, facilitators are people who initially resisted. And I know that in your story, you were actively avoiding writing this book. Maybe I didn't phrase that exactly right, but you started and you acknowledge it's not my path. What I find is when we reject something, it doesn't mean it will be rejected. We reject something, there's this kind of welling. And for me, when I wrote my first book, I was still rejecting being an author. My co writer, colleague extraordinaire, AJ Harper, every book we've done, we've done together. So there's a difference between authoring and writing. Author is someone who creates ideas, someone promotes ideas, a writer, someone who documents it. So I, I author and write, and AJ Writes with me too, just to really bring out the best of me. She's my ultimate coach, you know, working with me line by line. And she goes, I remember, Mike, that When you would meet people, if she was writing Shotgun, she'd say, you always introduce yourself. And she didn't say when I was doing this. She just observed it. She said, you'd always introduce yourself as, I'm an entrepreneur. When someone say, what do you do? I'm an entrepreneur. Oh, yeah. And I wrote a book. And then the day came, and I actually called AJ First. It was my second book. I was sitting there, and I spent hours and hours writing. And after hours and hours writing, I had maybe two sentences, but they were great sentences. And I picked up my caller, I said, oh, my God, I realize I'm an author. I spent hours and hours writing, and I got two killer sentences. And I know this is the process now. I get it. This has been a calling of mine to be an author. And I declared myself as an author. And that started this upward spiral of my career. When I. When I take an Uber ride or something, I just did one recently. I had a gig, a speaking gig. And a lot of times the driver will say, hey, so what do you do? You know, if there's a conversation, it's funny. Like, I used to back in the day, say, I'm an entrepreneur. Whatever. The conversation would die now, ever since. Pump plan. When people ask me what I do, I said, I went off. And, like, sometimes you feel the pump that breaks. Like, the person's shock. I don't know. I threw the car. Tell me more. And they get really into it. It's just interesting. And majors of parallel here is when we're called to do something and resist it, that calling won't go away. It just presents itself in new ways and bigger ways. That itch will get more itchy. And at a certain point, you gotta scratch it. And when you do, it's just. At least for me, it's amazing how the world embraced it. And now I kind of look in retrospect, saying, gosh, why didn't I do that earlier? But it wasn't ready yet.

We have to trust our timing. I believe that I. That's something that I come up against a lot. I wish I learned this earlier. I wish I started this sooner. What would life look like if I had? And I just have to surrender and trust. It is all unfolding as it's supposed to. You know, it's interesting how you bring that up, and I'm curious. And I, I. It's funny. I started writing like that was actually my therapy right after Laden died, but it was to a small group team Laden emails, fundraising for children's hospital. And then I was like, okay, I think I want to do. I started doing blogs and the podcast. And then I was like, okay, I want to do a book. Worked on it and then put it away in Google Drive and was like, yeah, no, no, thank you. Right. And I remember when you coached me to say, like, we were on a zoom or whatever, and it was, I think, at author up, and you were like, you had everybody declare, I'm an author. Like, I am an author. So it's interesting, that journey for you, but why do you think it is? And I'm sure so many listeners can relate. Like, I'm sure everyone listening just had something pop up in their head that they're like, oh, I'm resisting that. Like, why do you think it is that we resist the places we're meant to go?

I think because it's really shitty there. At least in the beginning. Yeah, it's really ugly. And there's like, sobbing with snot, boogers popping. There's shaking, there's massive headaches, there's fear. There's the outside perception. Like, what's the world going to think of me? For me, there was this overwhelming sense of weakness. I remember as I was going through depression, this is the visual that just like, oh, this is. Felt like there was this brick wall, like this heavy, heavy brick wall falling down on me, and I had my hands against it, trying to push it up. And it was, you know, meager mic versus tons and tons and tons of weight. And I would wake up with maybe even dreams of that, of it keep on crumbling and crushing. And of course, I feel the manifestation in my chest, like the compression so forth. So at least for me, there was this immediate relief if I ignored the grief. You get immediate relief, but it's temporary. And sometimes you need to medicate it a little bit just to keep that grief away. Sometimes it's distraction, medication, doing something else. But there's always a way to avoid it for 10 minutes, or maybe you're lucky a few hours or a day or two. But then it comes back and that wall now is even further collapsed, so crushes more. So I think we avoid doing the necessary work because it's painful in the moment. But the funny thing is, when you let the wall collapse, either it will literally collapse on you and crush you and you're dead, game over. Or there's like this little window, it's the window of opportunity. The whole thing comes down. Oh, I was standing where the window of opportunity is, and now it's down. Now there's nothing here. I can climb up on these ashes and the crumbled bricks and I can start assembling something new. I can build a whole new foundation and start building up. It's dangerous for me to say, once I got through my grief, it's always there. There's. There's regret and so forth. But once I reframed it to be, oh, this is. Every situation will present itself as a warning or a way. This experience I went through, losing everything, is a warning of what not to do, which then avails itself to. To explore and learn and improve. So it was a gift. It was just a gift around warning of learning. There's an opportunity here. So I think we avoided because there's temporary relief. But I will. I know from experience, my experience, it never goes away. The grief gets deeper, it gets harder. And when I see people struggling with many forms of medication, alcohol, drugs, overeating, avoidance, all those things, I'm like, ah, I wonder where this person is grieving in their life where they've had trauma. You know, people aren't willing to give that stuff up, particularly people in those positions. You can't go to them and say, are you trauma? Oh, yeah, let me tell you about it. But, but the, the bell goes off, it's like, oh, there, there's a trauma there. Yeah. And they're trying to medicate a way around it. And, and you, you just can't. You gotta let the wall fall. You gotta go through the window of opportunity.

I mean, what we resist persists. And the more we resist it, the more it will grow and amplify. And it's interesting, Mike is a big part of the book and I want to hear like, your thoughts on it, because I've never actually really. I mean, we. I know a little bit, but something you said earlier that I want to circle back to as we get into different parts of grief and the book. But you said how, you know, stepping away from comparison and of like, my grief can't matter as much because this person's grief, you know, is that. Or my grief matters more than theirs because mine is harder. That's a big mission of this book because I really believe, I mean, as you know, the mission of this book is to redefine grief beyond just death.

Yeah.

Job loss, change of relationship, empty nest. Right. All of these different things that are grief. And to not make it such a thing that we avoid, we tiptoe around. But I'll never forget, after Layden died, one of my girlfriends. I'm actually going to go see a Napa tomorrow. I had my tight group of girlfriends. And on Leyden's last day out of the hospital, because when we went into the hospital, we were supposed to leave. We didn't plan to go to the hospital and not return. And that morning, we had coffee with actually three of my girlfriends, all of whom I'm going to see tomorrow, of course, and all of our babies. We were all mamas together, and they were all within, you know, this one particular friend, it was just three weeks apart. Our daughters were three weeks apart. And then the other ones, you know, they. They all. They all have, like. They're just like mama machines. They have so many. But we were at brunch that day, and, you know, they were. They're Layden Z. And they were in the hospital all the time. And after Layden passed, one of my friends and I were in a deep conversation, and she said, I'm really struggling with, you know, my daughter not sleeping through the night and the toll it's taking on me. And all of these, you know, she's like. And I feel like I can't even say that. I'm a horrible person. I should be grateful that she's alive. And it reminds me of that feeling of, you have to clear your plate because there are starving children in Africa. And I'm just using that old saying.

Yeah. My mom used to literally used to say that. And it wasn't always pinpointing Africa.

Yeah. And I'm like, well, me having a stomachache is not going to help those starving children. Right. Like, they're two different things. And I don't believe. Like I said to my friend, just because I'm navigating this doesn't mean that your reality is any less painful. And it's a huge part of this book. We all get to honor our realities and where they're at, and nobody's is better or worse than ours. We're just in ours.

It's like DEI for grieving, Diversity, equity, and inclusion. Like, all grief is accepted. Yeah. It's kind of funny. It's true. But I think it's also normal to feel like we can't grieve. One of my closest friends, his name happens to also be Mike. He lost his wife. And actually, I get emotional now, too. Horrible. She lost her in her 50s to a brain tumor, and. Oh, horrible. And I feel this inner voice, like, don't ever saying to myself, don't ever call Mike from Chicago. Never tell him about your problems because he's got so much worse And I wonder if it's almost a disservice to him that I'm avoiding the opportunity for him to experience variety or maybe normalcy. And God forbid his other friends are doing the same thing. And now there's this like awkward kind of blister around Mike where people are actually rejecting him by trying to be kind of. By not including him. I'm not going to tell him about the fight I had with my wife because. Or the argument we had because, you know, he doesn't have a wife. And I wonder if, if that behavior is actually harmful to even the griever.

I'm getting emotional because. And this is something in the book, is it? Yeah, this is something in the book because it's, it's the way that we compound grief because we don't know how to manage it. We actually make it worse.

Yeah.

And I had a group of friends, well, my group of friends, and out of love and protection for me, they had a separate group chat where they would talk about their kids. But when you're already. And of course they did, of course, I get it. And at the same time, when you already feel so alone and disconnected and lost, it was kind of like what I believe is let the person decide.

So like, oh, I like that.

Let me decide if that serves me or doesn't serve me to be in there. Let it be a conversation where we connect. Right. And so like for you, it's like, well, let it be a conversation with you connect. And even being that vulnerable of saying, hey, I noticed I'm stopping myself from saying it, but this feels unfair to you. And at the same time I just want to, like, how do you want me to manage that? Do you want me as your friend to talk to you about this or not? And I think so often we try and guess what the other person is experiencing and what I found in grief and what's a big part of this message is like, everyone's so different, we gotta like lean in. And grief can actually, instead of being a form of separation, become a form of connection when we have these more vulnerable, honoring somebody's needs conversations.

There was a strategy around grief you bought me just a few weeks ago. And it was ironic. I don't know if I told you. It was the day that my mother in law passed. It was her three year anniversary. We were talking about your book and I was in the car at the time. And you said, oh, the strategy that you've used, and I'm paraphrasing, is that you have a plan A plan B and a plan C. And like plan A is on the anniversary date of when Laden passed that you and get together friends and maybe have lunch and have some form of memorial discussion. Plan B is you're going to and you totally sound like you told all your friends this. Plan B is you're going to select one person and to spend time with them over a cup of coffee or something. And plan C is you're not getting out of your bed and you're just going to stay home and grieve privately for that moment. It's like, wow, this is such a remarkable strategy because what you did is you prepared your support team for multiple choices. You prepare them in advance so there's no second questioning or misunderstanding. So I called my wife and it's interesting leading up to her mom's passing, which is in April, that particular day. And I know when it's coming even if you don't. You don't even show me the calendar. I know how many weeks away we are from my mother in law's passing by how heavy my wife is feeling. And that day, and this is now three years afterwards and I wonder if I suspect will continue is her most difficult day and I suspect it will be forever. I told her the strategy and she kind of left. She said, oh my God. What she'd been doing at that point is on that day she scheduled nothing. She may call her sister, most likely talk to her. She may go out and have friends to spend time, some time with friends, but it's kind of ad hoc. And then she is put in the position where she has to make all the decisions. And I'll tell you, for the last three years it's just been stay at home. I told her that strategy kind of lit her up. Like oh my gosh, this is something I can pre plan like a year in advance if you want, say hey guys and have these options still retain control but not have to make an effort during the most difficult grieving period. I love that. Now it's interesting for me, I remember the date February 14, 2008 like it was yesterday. But February 14, at least for me, has no trigger. Valentine's Day comes, I run out last minute like any husband, any good husband would. And oh my God, I've got to get a rose for my wife or roses panic, you know, going to three stores, everyone sold out. Like that's my February 14th. But what I see is everyone as a grieves in a different way. And at least for my wife, it's this Anchor date that just comes up almost like it's a birthday, like there's an anticipation, but. But for her, it's in a grieving form.

It's unbelievable. I mean, I cannot remember, like, what I ate yesterday. I cannot remember.

You know, I bet you it was tacos. Because you're in Mexico a lot, so that's.

I know. I love tacos. Which is funny. The last time I saw you, we had tacos at the place by your office, which.

Yeah, Chili Willies.

No, it was leandas.

Oh, leandas. Oh, that's right. We went up. Up the hill. But it's. It ain't Mexican. I mean, it's Mexican, but I think you're Mexican.

No, but. Well, it was funny, is. Well, a few things, but one, the name was so similar to Layden. And this was long before we knew we were writing the book. This is when I came to Mexico for 10 days and then never left. So just how much has changed from that. That time when I saw you. But I. I just looked at the date when you were speaking, and I'm like, oh, May 2, 2014. I was in the hospital with Layden. Oh, I remember Cinco de Mayo with Layden. I went to that restaurant and I had salmon and salad and a glass of wine. And then I remember everything. Like, I can remember what I was wearing. I don't remember what I did last year, Cinco de Mayo, or the year before. And it's something about the emotional intensity for me that it just. It's so ingrained and so it's interesting how you brought that up, how, you know. And I think everyone's experiences are different. You know, Layden's father didn't have that memory. And he would say, sometimes I think it's a blessing that I don't remember because maybe it doesn't hurt as much. And sometimes it feels like a curse because I don't feel as connected.

There's an interesting experiment we can do. Listeners can participate. So Here it is, September 11th. Where were you and, Melissa, do you remember where you were?

I was. I. When I found out, I was walking to field hockey practice as my freshman year in Providence College.

Yep. So I was at the beach, and I remember the. We were in New Jersey, the fighter jets racing toward New York. And I suspect every listener right now can remember if you're from the U.S. even if you aren't, maybe exactly where you were in a moment that is a collective grieving, a traumatic experience. Now, there's another situation I'll give you so that's one you remember. We were the second situation. You may have heard of it, but I suspect you won't know where you were. But I will remember where I was. It was the biggest mass shooting of that time at a university was at Virginia Tech and 32 students were murdered. Have you heard of that?

I've heard of it.

Yeah, Right.

Remember. But I don't where I was.

Right. And I suspect anyone listening will may have heard of that but doesn't know it. Where they were. I know exactly where I was because I went to Virginia Tech. So what happens is we all or most of us listening and have an affiliation with the United States. We're residents or citizens or whatever. Virginia Tech. There's a. There's a greater means to me than there is to you because my affiliation, therefore, one step removed. Laden is an absolute direct correlation to you. She's part of you, but she's not part of me or some of the listeners. So the. The closer we're associated with something, the more visceral it becomes. And we can remember absolute details. Of course, you won't remember when my daughter put the piggy bank on the table and what the table looked like. I remember every detail viscerally. And it'll be blazing. So it is this emotional intensity. The closer we are in relation to the thing we're grieving of. I think the more intense that moment becomes and it's forever emblazoned. And I think we need to embrace that. I think the deeper you grieve over something, this is my own hypothesis and psychologist, but the deeper you grieve over something, it means the closer you were to that experience, that person, that thing. And that's a wonderful joyous thing, man. That person, that thing. The expert had significant meaning to you. I think you can't grieve without significant meaning. And the more you grieve, the more it had meaning to you. And that's something I think minimally we need to honor. I had a event at MIT. I go every year for 23 years now with the same group of entrepreneurs. And one of the speakers at this event, it was just only about four weeks ago, went onto the stage and told us about 80 entrepreneurs, said someone loved you into being. And sometimes as many people that loved you into being, maybe it was a parent, maybe it was a teacher, maybe it's your daughter. But someone cared for you in a certain way, momentarily, for a long period of time through words or actions. But someone loved you into being. We have a responsibility to be the best of ourselves to honor their loving us into being. And there's some names in that room that you would know. These are some people that have become very successful in the entrepreneurial space. You know, these companies and these people. And no surprise, many people were emotionally moved and weeping and realized, oh, my gosh, this person was of such service to me. Shame on me for not being the best myself. And the best myself didn't mean being a wildly successful, financially successful entrepreneur. It meant having great impact. It meant serving what they saw in you. It meant loving your family deeply, or whatever it meant. But we've responsibly, most of us. So therefore, for our friends listening in right now, if you are grieving deeply, honor the fact that that had deep meaning for you. Also honor the fact that some, somehow, some way, someone, something loved you into being. And maybe that can become a platform now that can become a springboard for you to be the most of you and serve the impact that you're called to have.

Oh, it's so. I mean, yes. On so many levels. I think with that there's an underlying energy of gratitude that I believe is.

Yeah.

Medicinal in our healing. When I shifted from how could Layden be taken from me? To I am so grateful that I got to experience Laden. She chose me and I got to have her. Right. When I shifted into gratitude, things really began to shift in my life. And I think it doesn't have to be at the intensity of the loss of a child. It could be in anything in our life. But where are we supplementing gratitude for whatever we're experiencing, Whether it's traffic. Like, I'm grateful that I'm getting to cultivate presence right now. Right. I'm grateful. I'm grateful I have a, you know, I'm grateful I have a, you know, an iPhone where I can let someone know I'm going to be a little late, you know, like, I'm grateful, whatever it may be. But where can we find the gratitude? And beyond that, what you spoke into is where can we find the honor of the reverence of our beings and what we are meant to do here?

Yeah. And you know, also that. That gratitude. It's okay to be imperfect at. Right. I think I thought it would be a switch. Like, okay, I'm thinking negatively about something. I think positively about something. There's gonna be a switch. It really. It's kind of. It's more of a throttle, more of a change. With return to the previous. Previous state, there's bouncing around. But I did find that with an appreciation which maybe is for me a better word than gratitude because gratitude is almost like thank you. But appreciation is there was significance in this, even though it sucked is there's also a release that comes about. So I'm in a situation currently that someone's coming after my business aggressively. And I think one position I could take as. Respond just as aggressively. And honestly, if I have to, I will if I'm only in that position. But I've been going in with appreciation and seeing actually the learning and value that's coming out of it. And it's as weird as to say at times I'm actually a little bit excited, like, oh, wow, this has been such a good gift already while I'm going through a situation. But maybe, maybe it's not. Maybe it's a horrible thing. But with this appreciation, sleeping a lot better at night, I feel a lot more relaxed with this almost forgiveness, genuine forgiveness. And it could. There's always something to forgive when I find. When we go through grieving, it could be the greater. A greater universal force. It could be an ideology, it could be ourselves. But forgiveness, genuine forgiveness is the ultimate form of relief. So I have forgiven myself for being a financial and entrepreneurial. I now actually. And I focus on appreciation of what I learned from that. I have forgiven myself. This is actually something that is. I grieve over too. Is even bigger is I went all in on entrepreneurship since I've been 23. That means I've had three children that I never saw a walk for the first time. I was all in for the business, but not all in for my family. And I believed it was one or the other. You had to build a successful business to support a family and then be there for them, not realizing you can do both. So I missed a lot of firsts for my children and that's. I think about that deeply too. That's very upsetting. But I also actively have forgiven and actively forgive myself because it comes back up again and I forgive it. I see appreciation in it. What did I learn from this? I learned things not to do. I learned a warning. There's a movie you may saw on Netflix called Studs. Have you seen that?

No, I haven't do.

I haven't seen Studs. Okay.

I don't watch a lot of movies, Mike.

Okay, so this is a biography of a psychologist around Creek Sound. You've been very well.

Okay, we get to add that one to the list.

So start. There's a famous actor, Jonah. Jonah Hill or something. I think it's his psychologist and his psychologist walks through specific strategies to navigate grief and challenge and traumas. Well, one of the strategies, he says, is appreciating the shadow. Because we look back and there's, there's going to be shadows in our life, things that we kick ourselves over that we didn't do, loss that we can't reverse. And he goes, if you reject the shadow, it's part of you, it'll keep coming back and keep haunting you. And he goes, and he worked. This psychology works with a lot of actors because a lot of actors try to put aside their shadow, their traumas when they go in and do their demo or whatever for a roll call, when they're trying to, whatever they call that when they go in and read some lines to see if they get the role. Because the actors that struggle the most and usually don't get the dig is the ones who say, shadow you way outside the door, I'm going to ignore you for now. And they're an incomplete person. He goes, but the best actors and the best thing for humans, he says to appreciate the shadow, to say thank you for being here, thank you for making me aware of what you do. I appreciate you for that and just accepting and acknowledging it because those people are now whole and complete and those are the best performers in the room and perhaps we can perform best in our life. So that's what I've used that tool and it's been really helpful is saying pushing something away, trying to hide that grief. This comes back stronger. It's just that brick of wall clips collapsing is to say thank you, you're making me aware of something that going forward I'll have a new understanding. And you, you are of tremendous value to me.

It's the duality and as you were talking before about gratitude and you know, are there, is it something I can be appreciative for or I'm resentful of? It can be both. They can coexist and truthfully, light doesn't exist without darkness. Darkness doesn't exist without light. And it's the duality and I think that's something that, you know, we are also really taking on in the book, Mike, is the allowance of wow, I can be grateful, I can learn lessons. I can. And you know, I'm glad you spoke into self forgiveness. I mean for me, I had to, I continue to spend a lot of time forgiving myself. Like the story I created was I, I didn't take care of my child, I created water. What if I ate the wrong thing? What if I had Done this. What if I did that?

What ifs? Yeah.

Oh, and it's. It can completely. So if anyone listening has experienced that, like, please know, like, it's. You don't have to make it wrong, but it doesn't have to be the winning voice in your head. And it's. It's through the duality. But one of the things that we're really committed to, Mike, is the absence of toxic positivity.

Oh, that's. That's. That's even worse. Yeah. You know, that's fake. Toxic means fake.

Well, that's. That's almost what I feel like when it's. Like, it's the same energy as eat all your food because there are, you know, children starving somewhere else. It's kind of like. Like we're just looking over, you know, we're just, like, masking it. Like, it's almost like this. You should be grateful because you have this. And I think toxic positivity is like, I'm just so grateful because I have X, Y, or Z, or everything's perfect. And so. I don't know. I know.

Like, that's ignoring the shadow.

Ignoring the shadow.

I. Which is hard. That's. The shadow's part of you. Right. You wouldn't. If there's going to be sunlight on you, there's going to be a shadow. I. As a discipline, maybe about 10 years ago, when I was talking with someone, if they start crying over something or start experiencing emotion, I used to. Prior to this, oh, it's okay. And you've got this. All these positive things. And I said, oh, my gosh, I'm not honoring the moment. Like, what the f. Am I doing now? When someone didn't I say, please share. Let's. Let's, you know, I invite them to explore to the level they want. Doing this. I realize a lot of people, when they're around someone that's going through emotion, actually try to positive them out of it. And I think that's actually so harmful. You're basically saying, we don't want your emotion here. We were my. For Christmas, my son. All my children were over, and my oldest son, my wife were talking, and we were talking about his upcoming wedding. And he's gonna have it on a lake. It's called Lake Habatcon here in Jersey. My wife said, oh, you were so adamant about this place. Why do you want to do it on the lake? And he started, like, tearing up, and he's like, that's where grandma used to throw me in the water. We used to swim Together. And she'd pick him up and throw them into the water. Well, Grandma is my wife, my mom's mother, who passed away three years ago. And he was crying, and I was so honored that all of my children and my wife, we sat there and said, well, tell us about that. It wasn't like, oh, it's okay, and she'd be so proud of you, or, she'll be there in spirit. None of those words were said. We let him explore that emotion, and I felt more bonded to him, and I understood a new perspective and I never heard before, wouldn't that been sinful? If I or one of us said, oh, no, it's okay, it's okay. He wouldn't have explored that story for himself or for us.

It's. I. It's so powerful. I mean, I feel like we can do a whole series here. But, you know, I'm like, literally, like, the. The mistakes of grief, you know, or of uncomfortable emotion. And I remember saying this to you the first time you're on the podcast. We both have the conversations that make people uncomfortable around finances, financial health. People get really weird talking about money.

Oh, really weird.

Really? We are talking about grief. Right. And the more we can normalize it, the default response when you see a child crying for majority. I'm not saying all is, it's okay.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and we are completely dismissing actually the sacredness of all emotional experiences.

That's right.

All right. So many good things as we are kind of wrapping up here, like, as we're looking at the book, as we're looking at, you know, what we're doing. Is there just. I mean, one. Sometimes I think, like, how did we even get here? I don't know how we got here. You know, like, I don't know how this happened, but is there anything that, you know, has really come up that you feel you want to speak into or preview or just kind of, like, close out with?

Yeah. So there's a working title, and I don't even want to say what it is because those titles change. So I want to distract people. But the word normal release for now is in it. And to me, it just lands in so many ways that there's. First, what you're saying is grief is normal, Right. So you're going through it. This is what everyone goes through, that there's a normalcy to how it may redefine or further enhance who you already are or change to some degree how you are. There's a normalcy there. I love that because the book's title is about acceptance. It's about accepting who you are, accepting this process. And it. It doesn't say it's easy. It doesn't say the easy way to grieve. You know, no one. There's no problems with that ever. But honestly, could be a gift that presents itself in a very awkward package, and that's normal. I also know that I'm convinced this book is going to have such powerful impact on a massive community. I just invite the readership, the listenership to this program. Please get a copy, because I'll serve you when it comes out. But also please spread the word on this, on the normalcy of grieving. And there's tools out there to help people because it's very difficult to navigate grief. I think most people try to navigate it alone. And I think a book is a very comfortable way to actually navigate collectively. So I just want to encourage any listener to embrace anyone else that's grieving and invite them. Melissa. To read Melissa's book or at least to engage with others that go into the grieving process, too, so you can navigate it better.

Oh, thank you so much. And just something to add on to what you just said. There was. I see one or two extremes. People either try and do it alone or they want somebody else to do it for them.

Oh, yeah, that's good.

You know, and like, can you carry this for me? Can you take care of me? Can you. I need you to do this to make me feel better. And all human responses. I did both. Right. So. But the book is designed to help you feel empowered in it, to navigate. To navigate it. But also within that feeling of community and not aloneness. So, Mike, thank you so much.

You're very welcome. Enjoy your trip to Napa.

I know.

Give me. Give me feedback. And I'm curious not just what wines you taste, but how your friendships, the friends you visit with out there, how those conversations go. I'm so proud that they're with you and have continue to be with you throughout this entire experience, which never ends.

No.

Sounds like you got a great group of friends.

I'm so blessed with diverse, amazing friendships. And one of them was actually on the. The group that we did like, the test group for the book.

Oh, really? Okay.

So it was incredible.

I hope she gave it a five star. She did.

I want to let people know where they can find you. But also, I just have to say I'm so, so glad when I called you, because the whole reason we. Well, not the whole reason, but one of many reasons we got here, I think I called her text. You was like, hey, do you want to buy my business? And you were like, yeah.

Yeah, you did. Yeah.

You were like, no, but what are you gonna do?

No, I probably said, I. This is one little funny thing is we don't have time to share the story, but you were visiting, and you're laying out this business plan, and I'm like, don't do this, but don't do this way. And you're like, no, just hear me out. So I just wrote F, no. Or the whole F word. I just held it here and let you talk. Let me talk. And you know how many minutes passed? I said, okay, I've written down everything you talked about, and there's a. There's a clear direction here. And I held the sign up. You can say, I found that paper this morning. Pure coincidence.

No way.

Yeah. Flipping through an old notebook, and I first saw. I'm like, who wrote this in my book? I'm like, oh, that's. That's. That's my handwriting.

So stop it. You found that this morning.

I don't have with me. It's my backpack. Yeah.

You got to take a picture and send it to me.

Okay. Okay.

But you didn't want to buy the business, like, a year later when I asked you, but you were like, what are you going to do? And I'm like, I want to write. And then here we are. So thank you for the way in which you are a stand for possibility, for entrepreneurs. Thank you for a way in which you are a stand for possibility, for humanity and how we can all, like, learn and forgive and. And grow. Because I think you embody and you. You show and you create space for us to constantly grow, whether it's in ourselves or in our businesses. So thank you.

Thank you.

And where can the people find you.

Place to go is. I'll give you the shortcut. Mike motorbike. Like motorcycle.com it is. Mike Michalowicz. It's too hard to spell, and you'll forget it, so it will bring you there. But go to mike motor motorbike.com you can see the books I write. I just write for the Wall Street Journal. You can read some of those articles. It's all there for free. Mike motorbike.com all right.

Check out his work. Thank you all, and we'll talk soon. Thank you all so much for being here at Grief and Guts as Layden's mom, being able to spread the stories, the strategies, the lessons I have learned through Layden. And from Layden is the thing that means the most to me in this world and allowing my daughter's short life to have long and lasting impact by shining her light. Truly, nothing means more if you align with and believe in the work that we're doing here in these messages. The best way to give back and to spread this out into the world is to rate and review on Spotify and on itunes. Thank you for taking just a moment to do that. Feel free to shoot me a message. Let me know what what you want to hear more of, what you want to see more of. I am here to serve. I'm grateful to do so, and I'm cheering you on in your journey, as always.