120: Choose Your Hard - Grief & Life Mindset w/ Kendra Allen

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Welcome to Grief and Guts. I'm your host, Melissa Dugulecki. It is my honor and privilege to serve you by sharing stories, tools, interviews, and strategies that will help you transition from what do I do now? How do I get through this? Those feelings of overwhelm and uncertainty, to truly standing in your power. It is from my grief journey in losing my daughter Layden in 2014 that I learned, practiced, was exposed to all these tools, but they are not grief specific. In fact, they apply universally to all of our unique situations. You've already done the hard part by showing up, by opening up to something new. So without any further ado, let's get to the good stuff that's going to help you in your journey. Let's dive in. Okay, everybody, welcome back to the pod. I am already crying as I introduce you to an amazing, incredibly special, and talented guest today. Kendra Allen was my grief counselor when I first lost my daughter, Layden. And what I think is really powerful is not only the tools in which she taught, the ways in which she widened my understanding of grief, but the space that she held. And my goal today is to not only inform you and educate you on many different aspects of grief that aren't spoken about, but it's to allow you to have a lens into the version of me that could just barely show up. And many of you see me now, you know, publishing a book, and you see me speaking about laden and talking about grief in a way in which I'm much more healed. But Kendra is one of the only people who witnessed me in my absolutely most broken, barely could get myself off the floor state. So it is beyond an honor and privilege. I'm already crying. I don't know how this episode's gonna go, but we're just gonna go with it. Kendra, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you. So why don't you tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do, and then I'd love for you to introduce them to the version of me that you first met.

Okay, Well, I. I am a trained grief counselor with an lpc, they call it, in the state that I'm in. And I specialized in hospice work, grief, and loss, but also ended up being the person who saw all of the parents who lost children as a specialty. And so that is one of the reasons why I was the person that you saw in our office, is that I was one of the only people in the area who did that specialty and stopped practicing recently, but still just have a passion for Grief education and making sure that people know about it because it's something that people shy away from talking about in normal life, I guess you would say, but it's something that is universal. It happens to all of us and not just when a death is involved.

Yeah, I mean your work is. It's beyond sacred. I can't even imagine like where my life would be without you and how many families lives.

You have changed.

So with all this emotion coming out, I'm not going to be able to hold it back. Kendra, listeners know a little bit about the version of me that first came to you.

Yeah, well, of course the version of you that first came to me was not even. Were you even a month out from the loss of your daughter. And so of course it was like a puddle walking into the room. You know, it was expectedly so. And that's very normal, but definitely not the person I see in front of me, but a person who was devastated. I mean, devastated is the only word I can think of that adequately describes it. You were hardly able to get to the office to see me and somehow you found the strength to, you know, have on clothes and get in a car and get to the office and. And that was a real struggle for you. It was very obvious that that part even was a real struggle. Saw you started seeing me so early on in the loss that I really saw you through all of what people know of grief, you know, the really tough first year and every piece of your. Of your early and most raw grief and wounding.

It's interesting how you bring up like I remember it was hard to pick up clothes off the floor to get dressed. And I remember being in the shower and trying to remember did I wash my hair? I. I couldn't remember. And, and so for anybody listening who is in a space of I can barely get out my door, I. I just hope this serves as a reminder that it's just one day at a time and to do the very best you can one day at a time, because it's all you can do.

It is, it's really just surviving, especially at the beginning and believing that maybe you can do more than survive eventually. And, and that's hard to do. Just that alone is hard to do. But yeah, I mean, I think that especially early grief, the physical parts of your life are difficult. Your brain is preoccupied, your brain is too busy grieving to be worried about mundane things like washing your hair or eating. And I know a lot of, a lot of. Especially of course with parents who lost children, but also other Forms of grief. I've seen people needed support persons in their life to come and make sure they had food, that they were showering and, and taking care of themselves and getting a little sunshine every once in a while.

Yes, 100% that. I, I mean, I just remember and I think oftentimes in grief, we don't. When we are the supporter of somebody grieving, we don't always know what to do. And we're just like, we just. Right, like, can I help you eat? You know, because it can feel very powerless, not only as the griever, but as the person supporting a griever. And I'll just never forget the rotating door of, you know, for me it was like tortilla chips, cheese and ice cream. You know what I like and how forever grateful I am for that.

Yeah, yeah. It makes a big difference because it's not just the food, it's also the support. Yep.

So, Kendra, we are coming up, I don't know if you can believe this or not. We are coming up on nine years.

That seems impossible, to be honest.

Coming up on nine years from which I lost Laden and gosh, such a different version of me. But I'll never forget, I mean, so many things we're going to get into in this episode around. Around grief specifically. But I'll never forget. You looked at me in your office and you said, you're going to write a book someday.

Do you remember? I do. I do remember. It was because you always had a notebook on your lap taking notes and you did all sorts of exercises at home that involved writing. And your writing was so deep and meaningful and personal. And even when it was just for me, maybe you didn't even intend it for me, but shared it with me. It was profound. And so I remember saying that to you as you were head over pencil on the writing.

I remember there were. Sometimes you're like, okay, pen down. You know, like. Because I would have just kept going. And. And that was a form of release for me. Huge form of release and a huge form of processing. And it's different for everybody. But that was, that was absolutely mine. And so now we hear. Now here we are nine years later, and I have a book publishing contract. And I just always think back to that. I always think back to that. So remember when you said it, I was like, really? Like, who would, who would want to hear about this? And to your point, as we were kind of talking a little bit before now, grief, people shy away from it.

Yeah.

And so as you in your work, you've supported the heaviest of heavy griefs. You also talk about expanding the definition of grief to not just be loss or death. Can you speak a little bit more into that?

Yeah, I think that of course, grief, often the word grief refers to a loss from death and the, and the recovery process or the, or the non recovery process that you go through, depending. But I think the word loss is kind of a bigger word. It encompasses your grief when you're deprived of anything, something or someone that was of value to you. And so to me, that's a bigger definition than just the process of the feeling of grief, if that makes sense. And there are a lot of kinds of loss that can evoke very complicated emotions and can evoke a very complicated grieving process that aren't limited just to death. I mean, illness, injury, a shifting support system. Maybe you've had an estrangement with a family member or losing a job or a business if you were an entrepreneur. Abuse, trauma, homelessness, divorce, dementia, when a family member has dementia, infertility, addiction, really any life transition, because these are the parts of our lives that have value and meaning to us. And any time that changes, it comes with loss and grief over that loss.

I love that you bring up, you know, so many of these widened definitions of grief, because what I really do believe is that, as you said, people can shy away from grief. And when we can learn to lean in and embrace it as something that happens almost daily, regularly, we can become a lot more empowered in it. And for me, in my journey, one of the things that you really supported me with was educating myself and understanding grief and what was actually happening. I could separate myself from my grief journey.

Does that make sense?

It does.

You. You were able to separate the identity of Melissa from what had happened to you and your very normal reaction to that. And I think that can be a very healthy tool for some people.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think infertility is. Infertility and miscarriage are not talked about nearly enough in terms of the space of grief. I mean, none of what you shared, but particularly for me as a bereaved mom. Yeah, I've given a lot of people, in their words, not mine, but I've been a permission slip for them to understand that what they're experiencing is grief because they felt like, well, I didn't actually have my child. It's not, I, I'm not worthy of grieving the way you are. And there's this underlying worthiness and comparison conversation around grief and, and my goal of my book and so much of our work done is to. To equalize. Like, there's no hierarchy. There doesn't need to be hierarchy. Like, grief is grief.

Absolutely. And what you're speaking to is something that we call disenfranchised loss. We feel like they are not allowed to grieve a particular kind of loss. And especially until recently, infertility, miscarriage, those were definitely disenfranchised and I think still are in large part in our society, you know, and that can lead to a lack of support or feelings of invalidation, alienation, shame, all of those things. And none of those are helpful to people who need to go through a grieving process.

So can you speak a little bit more into that for the listener who is like, what is disenfranchised loss? Like, how would you define that?

I would define that as any loss that is not openly acknowledgeable. So usually that is culture specific. It can be culture specific, but it's a. It's any loss that feels to the person who has had the loss like they cannot discuss it openly with other people. You saw a lot of it in the 80s and. And early 90s, especially with when the AIDS epidemic was so rampant in the world and. And people would be losing their lifelong loves, but it couldn't be acknowledged. They weren't allowed in the hospital with their dying loved one, those kind of things. That is a very almost extreme example of disenfranchised grief. But you see it still with things like miscarriage and, and infertility. You see it with the families of people who have addictions or mental illness. You see it often because it feels to them often as though they're not allowed to discuss the. The grief feelings, the loss that they had because society looks down on the reason for the loss or, you know, doesn't want to hear about it.

It's so, you know, it's so painful to think about somebody navigating grief but not feeling as though they have the right to. They're going to be in the experience of it regardless. And then there are societal rules or norms or cultural norms that stifle the healing. It just makes that much more painful. And so I think, to your point, it's so important that we're speaking about it and creating the space for the allowance of everyone to grieve in whatever way they need to.

Yes, absolutely. And I think that, you know, overall, I feel hopeful. I think things have changed a lot just in the last 10 years as far as people being more open and finding at least communities of acceptance where they feel Free to share and, and to have their, their feelings of pain. And that's one of the most important things to do in grief of any kind, is to allow yourself to really feel those painful feelings. Feelings. And when you can't even openly acknowledge a loss, it really cuts you off from processing, I think, 100%.

And that could be a breakup, that could be a change. That can be all different things. It doesn't need to just be in the case of death, but really creating the space. And, and I speak into, and I don't know if you use this term, but I speak into chosen grief. You can choose to leave a relationship, but you're still worthy and entitled to grieving, even though you chose it. And I think sometimes people are like, well, you picked that. It's like, well, I picked that and it's really painful. I'm still navigating the grief and the loss of it.

Yes. I think one way I've put it before is to choose your hard. People have to choose their difficulty sometimes. And sometimes you decided that the least hard thing would be to leave this career or to leave this person. But there are still attachments there and it's still a major adjustment in your life. So you've just chosen a different hard path and that of course, you are going to grieve those things because grief is. Any loss, any life transition can bring up those feelings of grief. And employment is a very big one and can often feel disenfranchised in a way because we all carry a lot of shoulds around with us about how we should be able to provide for ourselves and our families, how we. The kind of job we should have, those kind of things. And your financial identity is a huge component of secondary loss, I think, and of, of any change you make that has to do with your finances. That's a major grief and can often be a shameful grief. If you think people might be judging you 100%.

Yeah, I think, you know, judgment was a really a real big part of my journey and feeling judged for different levels or layers or even asking myself like, was I being punished? You know, like, we go to those spaces, I think in grief and, and I just encourage anyone listening to have the support, to have the support, have the coach, have the counselor, just to help you navigate that in a way where the external isn't necessarily stifling what you need to navigate and the internal shame or fears or projections. Because I'll never forget you said to me, and I'm paraphrasing here, but you said to me, grief doesn't actually change a person. It takes what's there already and pulls it straight up to the surface level. Like it's, like it puts a magnifying glass. And so for me, as someone who had a history, an unhealed history at that time, of feeling judged and this is my own wounds, right? But that came up to the surface so loudly for me, on the flip side of that, the opportunity of that was that it provided the space to really heal.

Forced the space, really, because that's what grief does. That's what I probably meant as well, is that grief gives you no choice when it's deep and it's at the core of who you are. And you've, you've lost something that makes you question everything. You, you know, we all know the concrete things that are lost. We know, okay, that person died, that is a loss. We know that job went away or that income went away. That's a concrete loss. Or you lost your home, that's a concrete loss. But then you get these less tangible losses. And one of them is loss of identity. And when you have lost who you thought you were, whether that is now, you're. You've lost your relational identity. So in your case, you were a mother and you lost that person that made you that thing. And, and that was very, you know, intangible in a way, because it was mixed up in all of your inner feelings. You know, you can lose a relational identity, professional identity, financial identity, spiritual, even physical. You know, when someone has an. A sudden injury or an illness that you know, less able than they were before, or even things that challenge your outlook, your perception of the world, those kind of things, those are those less tangible losses that are harder to put your finger on and identify. And grief, and the whole process of grief brings all of that up. Like you say, it didn't have to be surrounding only the loss you had. It could be old stuff, childhood stuff, things that are unhealed. Grief forces you to have to deal with it.

And now what you're referencing right now is that what you call secondary losses.

Those are in, in grief work when, when we focus on the grief of a death, we call those secondary losses. But they can easily be primary losses, really. But they often do come when you've lost a major piece of your life, whether that's someone you love or your, or your income or maybe a business or if your house burned down. You know, things like that. When it's, when it's something easily identifiable, that is the primary loss. And then we call all those less tangible pieces secondary losses.

So I want to hit secondary losses in a moment. But to go back to your point, it. Grief forces it like, it took all my shit right up to the surface. And the gift in that, though I would encourage anybody, the gift in that is it allows us a space to choose into healing in a way that we may have never done. I say, if we're going to go through it, let's make it worth it. Like, if I'm going to go through all this pain, can I make it worth it?

Well, you know, I thought when I was thinking about this conversation and about your journey, the idea of empty arms is a big sort of phrase when you're dealing with parents who have lost children, especially young children like you did. And it's this idea of hopes and dreams have been snatched away. And I think that happens with most forms of loss and grief, whether it's, you know, from death or not. But I was thinking about, you know, that idea of empty arms and how you made some choices when you were presented with that inescapable pain, that pain that's so deep and it hurts so much. And I think that there are actually three choices, and you made. You made one of those. But the three choices are you can hold on to what's in your arms so tight, despite the fact that it's hollow now and it's heavy and it limits your capacity to find other fulfilling things in life. Or you can drop everything out of your arms, throw it down with anger and bitterness, and your arms will be forever empty. Or, and this, I think, is what you chose to do, you can find ways to grieve that loss and eventually connect your old self with your new self. Find that bridge, I guess you would call it, and make room for new purpose in your life, new peace and joy, and embrace what you could call a plan B because it wasn't your original. It wasn't your original plan at all forced into this situation, but to create room in your arms, to embrace a new plan, a new hope for the future. But that takes a lot of strength and a lot of hard work and a lot of willingness to sit in the pain of the emotions. And. And I was just thinking about with you, I think that's what you chose was that third option. But it, again, it was pick your hard. You chose that hard.

Thank you for acknowledging that. And I would agree. I mean, the. The pain of just sitting still with it and being with those emotions and being with something I just couldn't comprehend. Yeah. And so thank you. I completely, completely stand in the opportunity. And it's actually a chapter of my book is the Hidden Opportunity Opportunities of Grief. Because I do think they're hidden, right? Nobody, like, I didn't lose Laden and say, okay, I have the opportunity to do this. Like, I had to do the work, show up, see the opportunity, not even comprehend it.

I think having. Having done groups, especially for. For fairly newly bereaved parents in a group setting, the idea of opportunity and grief is almost offensive to people when they are early in their grief, because they can't see their way to that yet. You know, they're just. Their eyes are clouded with the. The extreme. The most extreme pain of life, really. I mean, that's. That's a very extreme situation. And I remember once I had an intern who I was coaching, and they came and I said, okay, you can do the opening reading. And so they chose a poem, which they would have chosen in Loss of a Spouse for people who were elderly and had lost a spouse after, you know, 50, 60 years of marriage. And it was quite hopeful. And every parent in the room was just so upset. And I said, okay, Kendra, screen the interns reading. And then. But then we talked about it, and it was okay because, you know, we talked about, do you feel people want you to get to this already? Do they? Do you feel they want you to get. Skip over all the hard parts, you know, and so it opened up a conversation. But people do if they want to go from the loss happened, acceptance, move forward. Let's get this behind us. And that's not how it works.

It's definitely not how it works. It's so interesting you bring that up, though, because I often say, if, you know, people will reach out to me and say, Melissa, like, you know, so and so just lost somebody. Like, what's your podcast information? And I made a Google Doc that links the early episodes, and I'm like, don't have them start now. A newly grieving, you know, parent, or whoever it may be listened to, to this current version of me. They probably wouldn't appreciate it. They're not necessarily. And I'm speaking from my experience. I wouldn't have appreciated it. I wouldn't have been ready to talk about hidden opportunities or to talk about, you know, ways in which we grow or learn or grateful. Like, no. If. If you had said to me, like, well, can you be grateful? I would have been like, absolutely not. You know, and as I'm writing the book, my biggest challenge has been to tap back into the nine Years ago version of me.

Yes. Because that's also painful.

Well, one.

Yeah, yawn.

Painful. I mean, I cried the second I saw you and heard your voice. I heard your voice, and it brought me right back to the room. I mean, I remember that elevator. Like, I remember exactly what it looked like to go in that elevator and go up to. I think it was the second floor or something. And then to take the right out of the elevator, and then the desk was in front and your door was right on the right. Like, I can't remember what something I went to last week looks like. And I will never forget that.

It becomes a memory because it's where you did so much work and where you felt so much pain.

So much pain. But one of the things that I've been doing for the book has been actually going back to. To old writings, old podcast episodes, going back to Facebook memories and old emails to find that version of me that was writing and speaking differently. Because in order for my book to be even accessible to your point, to somebody navigating the beginning of their grief journey, you know, I get to meet them where they're at.

Right. And that's the most important thing for someone who's in that stage is to try to meet them where they're at and to allow the pain, even though it's hard for us now.

We started to speak into it a little bit, but I just want to revisit it for anyone listening on secondary losses, because I remember when you introduced this concept to me and you were like, what other losses, you know, came from Layden? And I'm like, layden? You know, like, I. I didn't understand.

Is that not enough? Yeah. Yes. And what you said, it's so funny.

You remember that? Yeah, pretty. I think I pretty much was like, is. Isn't the loss elated enough, Kendra? Like, what. What else could there possibly be? But actually understanding the concept of secondary losses really supported me. And could you speak into that for anyone listening that it could benefit?

Yes. I think that it is a funny concept when you're in the. In the throes of grief, because it's like, well, I think I've lost plenty of just with that one thing. Thank you very much. But I think it can really useful to people to actually name and claim their secondary losses, because when you can acknowledge something, it becomes less mysterious and powerful and you get a little bit of control back. And I think it's very helpful. But usually secondary losses are quite personal, and people are not going to necessarily be writing to you about them in dis sympathy cards. It's not going to be I'm so sorry for your loss of income because your husband died. You know, no one's gonna say that, but that could be a secondary loss. Or no one's gonna write you a card that says I'm sorry that you're struggling with your self esteem now due to your loss. No one's gonna. Right. So these are often very personal and you might kind of know about them without thinking about it, you know, really, because they're there, they're very real to the person who's experiencing them. But it can be, it can be almost, almost anything can be attacked by this because you might lose your hope for the future, you know, especially if it's a child of yours who's died. Your faith, your, you know, your spiritual faith, whether you are a person of a specific faith or if you feel just more spiritual, it might make you question the order of the universe really. You know, how things work. Your sense of purpose could be gone. Especially if it's is a loss that brings those things into question. Like, you know, losing a form of employment, losing someone that you took care of, you know, whatever it might be, your sense of purpose might be under attack. You could lose a support system because often, whether the loss is from death or not, it changes who you are, how you behave, how challenging you are to support as well. And so sometimes our support systems can shift and change when we change, whether whatever that change may be from. But you could also, I think we talked about relational identity already. That's a big one, especially for loss from death. But it can be any kind of loss because, you know, thinking about divorce, that's a major change to the way you relate to almost everyone in your life. And so you might think, who am I if I'm not someone's husband or you know, am I still a good mother if I divorce my children's father, you know, whatever it might be. And then I think also a professional identity can be a secondary loss. That's a huge adjustment because we have so we define ourselves so so much through our work. It's how we spend most of our days. And that can be a really big adjustment and grief and loss in someone's life. And there's a lot of fallout from that. We talked about financial identity. That can be a huge secondary loss. All the shoulds, you and I, you and I know a lot about shoulds.

Favorite word.

Yes. Leaving those shoulds behind. But there are a lot of shoulds, you know, around finances. And we talked a little bit about a secondary loss of physical identity. And so that could be something like you become disabled. That's, you know, obviously a huge one. But it could also be something like just with aging. Aging is a loss of physical identity. You know, your looks. Yes. But also, maybe you can't do what you used to do on your job, or maybe you were an athlete, like, you know, marathon running. Maybe you couldn't. You could do that until you were 70, but now you're 70 and things have changed. Your knees have changed. So those are all. And then another one that is really hard to define is losing your outlook on life. And I think that's what I mean by a loss makes you question everything. But it can also change who you thought you were and how you saw the world. So you may be, oh, but I'm a happy person. I can't feel this depressed. What are. What's happening to me? You know, am I losing my mind? Or it might just make you question, is the world a fair place? Is the world a good place? There's. There are a lot of. A lot of questioning going on with secondary losses.

I remember the ones that really resonated with me, if I'm. If I'm, you know, recollecting accurately, was the loss of seeing my brother's uncle.

Yes. Yeah, that was.

And the loss of seeing my parents, grandparents. That. And I'm getting emotional. Those were. Oh, those were so painful.

Those in relationship. It's just hard. And also watching other people have losses because of your loss. There's a lot to unpack there, too.

Oh, so much. So much to unpack. And I, you know, when I made the choice to leave, you know, to not move forward, I think is probably the best way to say in my relationship with Leighton's father, you know, years and years and years after she passed, it wasn't right away, but I remember grasping to the secondary losses because I was feeling such a deep pain, a grief of what still felt like a family unit. Even though Laden wasn't alive, it still felt like when we were together, somebody would see us and no, Laden was missing, whereas when we weren't together, it was going to be less likely. And I. I just remember, you know, it was. It was years after she passed, but, you know, when we didn't move forward, I remember grieving not only the relationship, because, of course, grieving the relationship, but grieving that secondary loss of still. I had still been holding on.

Yeah.

To that feeling of being a family unit.

Absolutely. And and it made her more real in the wider world in a way. And you were, you know, I, I think that's very powerful because, you know, these are connections that we have with our, with who, whoever we've lost. In your case, of course, this is deep loss of laden, but it's a connecting piece. You know, it was a rope you were hanging on to.

I was clinging onto that rope. And you know, and I remember you actually, you said to me when I was grieving and of course, poor guy, I wanted to make him wrong for everything and he's not doing this right. And you were like, just because you're grieving this way doesn't mean that other people are going to grieve the same way. And gosh, what an, what a life lesson. Just because you manage something this way or you process it this way, or this is your need, doesn't work, mean that's someone else's. And that is a lesson that I have just taken with me into all parts of my life. Way beyond grief.

It's, it's one of the hardest ones to learn, I think, and one of the hardest ones to remember because if people would just do what we thought they should do, wouldn't last be. But, but, no, not necessarily. But because everyone has. And, and that's so important to know about grief, is that it is so individual, but so is most of life. We all are just such different beings from one another. We have a lot in common, commonalities in there, but we have to process and go through things in our own way and find our own way through it, which makes grieving loss, all of these difficult parts of life, it makes it more intimidating until you have gone inside and done that inner work and, and faced that inner, inner pain. You're afraid of it because, oh, this is mine. I, I'm the only one who can do this. My mom cannot do this for me. My brother cannot do this for me, My husband cannot do this for me. I have to slay my own dragon. And it can be very intimidating for someone who's not had to do that.

Yes. And one of the biggest lessons I learned from grief was personal responsibility is what I call it. Right. Like I am the sole person responsible for my life. And I remember learning that at a whole new level. Like I was a hard working person. I wasn't, like, I wasn't in responsibility, but this was a whole new level because I wanted Lynn's dad, I wanted my own family. I wanted this or that or that to just take my pain and Carry it for me. And looking back, there's nothing more sacred than me of taking care of it myself.

Absolutely. That's the flip side of, of the coin. It's really scary and intimidating, but it's also empowering because once you learn that you can, it means that, hey, I have power over myself. I. There are things I can do. I have the power to make change in myself and in the world around me.

Yes, 100%. It's. I mean, again, it's one of those life lessons. I started my email campaign after Layden passed that first year when I was training for the marathon, and it was called Lessons from Layden. And that was. One of them, was like, we are. We are solely responsible for everything. And. And when you can carry that with gratitude to all parts of life, you can really create some incredible results, you.

Know, and have, I think, more contentment because you're living an authentic way for yourself and you felt the pain and it's not this hungry wolf following you around for your whole life. Yes, yes, yes.

Now, can you speak into ambiguous loss?

Yes. So ambiguous loss, of course, all of this can be wrapped in. Together, and. And it's like a big spider web. But ambiguous loss is really, when there's any kind of uncertainty about a loss. It could be uncertainty about who or what was lost, or even it's a loss occurred at all. Dementia is a really good example because the person is physically present. You haven't lost them, but they're also not themselves. They're not there. And so that can be an ambiguous loss because you've lost that relationship and. And it has changed and shifted. Another one is divorce, separation. Those can be ambiguous losses because the person's alive, but your relational identity with them has changed. There's a huge difference in your life. But people are not necessarily as kind about that as they are about the loss through death as well. So there's some ambiguity also in the relationship. Sometimes an absentee parent is a really good example of an ambiguous loss. The person's alive but not present in your life. Mental illness, addiction, those are very often ambiguous losses for families because people are there and they can come in and out of life, of your life, you know, and. But there's a lot of ambiguity about who they are. How can I help them, or maybe it's time for me not to help them. There's a lot of uncertainty there. But also, I think a big ambiguous loss is when we have a shift in our inner life that's often not talked about and can be a Big part of grief as well. Because when you change internally, sometimes it's conscious and very filled with effort and sometimes it's not because it's something that naturally happens to you when outside circumstances change. And anytime there has been a big change, you're going to have a sense of loss.

Oh, I mean it. And it's interesting. I mean, I've kind of termed it chosen grief in a lot of the things that I've written, which I think falls under an ambiguous loss, like am I can I grieve this? You know, and I believe as we are doing the work and personally developing, and when we do that and we choose to release relationships, friendships, jobs, activities that no longer serve us, it's a grief element.

Yes, absolutely.

A huge group element. So thank you for just bringing attention to that because to your point, when you have awareness and when you can name something, that's the first step in becoming more empowered in it.

Yes, absolutely. And especially, like you say, with those chosen griefs, because they involve inner changes that lead to exterior changes as well, I think it can be really confusing, conflicted about whether you can grieve that or not 100%.

And if anyone listening is like, well, can I grieve it? Yes, you can.

Yeah. Yes. Yes, you can.

Now, speaking of grieving, something that you spoke into earlier, which I don't know that I've heard you say, say this before, but you've spoken to the tasks of grief and grief as an active process. So I'd love to hear about that.

Okay, so this is a theory put forward by a man named J.W.

Warden.

He has a book that grief counselors read. It's Techniques of Grief Counseling. That was a textbook. Really? Not a. A book on Amazon, really. But he talks about the tasks of grief. And what I like about his and model is that it sees grief as an active process where you have not control maybe, but you have something to do with how you choose to go about it if you want to. And of course, all models of grief are just a way that us humans are trying to put order to a chaotic world. So are to be taken as you know, we know grief is not linear. We know grief is not a neat little package you can tie with a bow. So just take this with that in mind. But he says there are four tasks involved in grief and they are no certain order. You can revisit tasks however often you need. But he says that they are to one, accept your new reality. So accept that the loss has happened. Accept that your world is changed and that is often seen most acutely in the beginning of someone's grief journey, but not always. It can continue longer, especially if there's complicating factors involved. But that's certainly where you were when you walked into my office. You hadn't quite accepted that Leighton was really gone.

No, I hadn't. Like, I. I don't know when I did, but I know that it wasn't right away.

Right. And it takes time to sort of get that through to yourself because it's such a major event, a major thing that's happened. And then the second part is the part where you and I spent probably the most time in the office. And, and that is task two, which is to process the pain of the loss. And what I find hopeful about this step, because this is the hardest task, this is by far the most difficult thing for people to do because it involves that real deep, gut wrenching wounding, and someone, yourself, a therapist, whoever, touching the wounds. So this is very painful. But the part about it that I think gives hope is that it teaches you that your pain is there for a purpose, it serves a purpose, and that healing is in the painful feelings themselves. And if you can accept that and go there, that's where you're going to find the ability to process those painful feelings. But it hurts. You know, I'm Southern. It hurts like the dickens. It hurts so much, and it's. And it's awful. And knowing that it serves a purpose, I think is very useful, and I.

Would say in the beginning to trusting that it serves a purpose. If you don't quite yet believe it.

Yes, I think that's a good word, is trusting.

Yeah. Because I will say I knew. I knew like, that this was going to be a bigger purpose. I felt it, but I wasn't necessarily ready to accept it or embrace that. I didn't want to allow it. To me, it made it seem like, well, then it's okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, that, you know, laid and died, it's okay, or I'm. I'm okay with it. And that was a. That was a hard thing for me, was to learn how to grieve and heal without creating the story that I'm telling the world. I'm fine.

Absolutely. And you've just described the number one resistance to healing, because people often, quite rightly know that those painful feelings are there because of the love they had for the person. And there's pain when you lose someone that you love or something that you love. And so sometimes people feel guilty to even address the pain. Because what if it goes away? Does that mean I'm okay with it? Yeah, absolutely. I think that, that, I think that's also just the hardest part culturally as well because we live in a culture that gives you three days off when you lose someone you love. And now you're supposed to come dry eyed back into work and move on. And people, people will support you for so long, but people want you to feel better and they mean it from a place of love. But often they're kind of done with the deep, deep, deep feelings and the, the crying big tears and, and the heart wrenching sobs that are real for someone who has had a deep loss. They're kind of done with it after a while. And we send messages to people, bury it, bury the pain. You know, if you shut the door on the pain, the pain will leave you alone. But what's true is that it usually does not leave you alone. It's there, it's waiting for you. And it will come out in ways you do not necessarily want pain to come out. It'll come out in addiction or it'll come out in shopping sprees or it'll come out in change to your personality. You won't be in, you know, a person who treats other people the way you used to. There are ways that grief works itself out of your, out of your body.

Oh yeah, it just gets pushed down there and comes out in different ways. You know, we're not, we're not escaping it, it's just how we're going to navigate it or manage it. And I think that's really, really important to bring up and speak about in terms of, I know I felt like, and not that I would ever expect anybody to carry the grief for me because I never would. And of course people are uncomfortable and of course they just want me to be better. Of course, like, well, it'll be better after a year, right? And I was like, day 366 is not gonna make it. Like we put a calendar a year on it. And I knew the come from was I, I want you to be better, right, Because I love you and I'm worried about you. Please tell me it's going to be better at day 366. But I was like spoiler alert. In fact, I found the second year to be more challenging than the first year.

It often, and people don't like to hear that but, but it often is because you've gone, you've sort of survived the first year and now you might be in A place where you can feel the feelings. Yes. And that can make the second year more challenging because. Okay, now what is the question as well, you know, I thought I was supposed to be better by now.

Yeah. I'd say definitely internal pressure, external pressure that, you know, it will get better by now or it should be better by now. And I know for me, that first year it was just shock, Right. So much shock that there was more feeling the second year, for sure, and more acceptance of, like, well, now. Now what? And also to your point earlier, like, support systems naturally will kind of fade away. And that's. That's not wrong. Right. I don't expect, you know, I don't hear from very many people on Leiden's birthday or anniversary anymore, but that's not wrong. I don't expect people to be living their lives, you know, thinking about that. And, and honestly, it was. It's a very humbling experience when you go through an intense grief because you get to let go of the expectation that people are waking up every day for the rest of their lives wondering how you're doing. Right. They're not. They've got their own lives. Just like I'm not waking up every day thinking about every single person in my life.

Yes.

And grief can be very humbling when you. When you recognize that. And also, I think, creates the environment where year two can be a bit more challenging because you're still pretty raw. Also, not everyone is waking up every day thinking about it in the same way.

Right. And, you know, you've got to face now, the future with that being the new reality, and that's sometimes very intimidating. And you also may be in a place where it's the first time you've actually had the. The emotional strength to feel those feelings. And now you're being required to have even more strength. And it's hard.

Thank you so much. So I would love to just wrap up with educating the listener on the difference between letting go and integrating, because we spoke into that a little bit of like, I don't want to let go. I don't want to be healed, because then that's going to mean I'm on. And I think hearing that concept and then conclude with, you know, I might ask you a question or two about, like, the version of me that was in your office nine years ago just for that listener to. To be able to relate to. But can you first speak into the letting go versus integrating?

Yeah. So there are. There are actually two more tasks that speak to that in this model. And so we were still on task. Let's keep going with tasks out perfectly because that's what those two are about. So I'll just talk. I'll answer that question and talk about those tests. So that's perfect. The two steps or two tasks that are left are called adjusting to a changed world and a changed self. And then moving forward is the language in the fourth task. Moving forward while integrating the loss into your life. And so let me just say those are the tasks, but talk about it in a response to your question, which is that of course you've changed, your world has changed. Nothing's the same. You have had to practically adjust your life. So if you've lost a husband, you've had to adjust to the loss of that income, maybe. Or if you lost a husband who cooked every meal at your house, you've had to learn how to handle the food. You know, there are very small. There are very specific and practical tasks that have you've adjusted to. But then there's the inner adjustment, the emotional adjustment, and the adjustment of your own identity. All of that's happening. And as you go through those things, if you really tackle it, if you've done the work through the pain, if you have have done whatever your process of grief needed to look like because everyone's will look different and we all have to find our way through, then you eventually begin to integrate your old self, the connection with your loved one or with the old version of you. If it's a loss that's not related to death, you integrate that into your life. Moving forward. Because whether you do the grief work or not, you're moving forward. That's how time works, right? Yes. And the idea is that people think that grief is so huge at the beginning and that you are this circle and grief takes up all of you. And then they think the grief shrinks as you go forward in time, but it does not. What happens is you get bigger because you've done the work. You are a changed person. And all that adjusting that you do in that quote, unquote task three makes you become a larger version of yourself. The grief often stays the same size, but you are growing around it. And so what happens then is that you're making room for purpose, joy, contentment, and it's going to look different than you ever imagined because life has inalterably changed. But because you're growing around the grief, that's what I call integrating. Does that make sense?

Oh, it made so much sense. I mean, I was smiling as you were saying it, because I Remember that drawing you made? And it was like, your grief isn't going to change. And I think, you know, we talked about it in a sense of building your worlds. Right. The size of your grief isn't going to change, but the amount of space that it consumes will lessen in terms of percentage wise. Right. It can go from picking up 100%, but as you expand.

Yes.

With it staying the same size, it's now 80, 60, 40, 20%. And I know that really helped me.

In seeing, okay, well, if I'm moving.

Forward and I'm building my world and I'm. I'm growing, it doesn't mean that laden is less. The percent that the grief takes up has lowered.

Yes. And I like that idea of percentages. Yeah, that's exactly the way I think of it. And often, because grief is such a major event in our lives, often your circle holds that person that you lost in the middle of your new circle, that you've grown around it. So not only are you not leaving them behind or quote, unquote, letting go, which is a myth. There's no. There is no. Elsa was wrong. There is no letting go. But not only are you not letting that person go or that piece of you go, you're actually building yourself around them in a way because they meant so much to you. So grow bigger. Everything really goes back to that loss and to that person because the center of loss and grief is love. And taking that love for that person or that situation in your life forward with you.

Oh, so beautiful. I could keep going forever and ever, honestly, you know, Kendra, is there anything else that you want to share with the listener at this time?

Well, I just want to say that, you know, I'm always so honored to speak with you because you were that puddle of a person who came into my office at the beginning. And, you know, as a therapist, you're never sure what the outcome is going to be, Right. Because I've seen. I've seen it all. I've seen. I've seen good. You know, I've seen positive. Won't say the word good, but I've seen positive outcomes and negative outcomes. And you know what I find made a huge difference with your journey is that one, you were willing to. You were willing to go there, you were willing to process that pain, and you were willing to do the hard work of really looking at yourself. And for anyone who's listening, who's maybe in that early phase, and they don't know if they have the strength to do it, you did not have the strength to do it. When you walked in that room, there's no way you did, but you, you found your way through, and it was really that you were willing to trust the process and to put yourself out there internally, though not, not to the public, but to do that genuine internal work that no one else necessarily knew about, but that was life altering for you.

The listener can't see me right now, but I'm crying.

Thank you.

And thank you so much. And yeah, I mean, I, I want the. Anyone listening to hear me when I say, like, I could barely get to your office. I just remember it being a win when I could get there. And, and I, I, I actually coach now. Like, I'm having a hard time finding words right now, but I currently coach. Trust the process. Trust the process. Process. Trust the process. And I coach it for business, but it's a, it's a way of being in life and in grief and just trust the process. You know, like anyone listening, show up and trust the process because you're so worth it and it is so possible. And get a coach or counselor because, you know, Kendra, I don't know that I would be here without you.

You know, and I think, you know, everyone deserves to have a space held for them, to have someone who holds the space for their grief and for that deep pain. And if you don't have someone in your life who really can do that for you, and most people don't, because even our best friends, our, our parents, you know, we have a relationship with them, it's a different thing. You know, a good grief counseling counselor will know how to be okay with you not being okay and to let you cry and to let you be a puddle in their office for as long as you need to be and will trust your process. Because I think that's the other piece of it is that you need someone who trusts you to heal yourself. So beautiful. It's so powerful.

Thank you so, so, so much. You know, as we have this podcast that is actually ranked top 3% globally and a book coming out, I don't know that I would be here without you. And of course, like, I always will give myself credit, like, I did show up, but your compassion, your expertise, your knowledge, your wisdom, your willingness to hold. And you had a really nice way of gently opening me up to seeing things differently. Like, because if somebody is a little bit too, too directive with me, particularly back then I would be maybe more defensive, but you had a really great way of presenting things to expand my vision. That was so Gentle and just your skill set and your expertise, your compassion, your love. Thank you so very much.

Thank you. Now you're going to start the podcast with you crying and end with me.

All right, Kendra, where can a listener find resources? I know you're not currently practicing, but where would you find someone find resources?

I actually have a great resource that I follow on Instagram, but they also have a website. The organization is run by two women, as far as I'm aware, and they call it what's your grief? And they have a lot of really good articles, and I think they have some pictographs and some worksheets and things. It's called what's your grief? And that's the name of the website as well. They both have had significant losses in their lives and then decided to do something about the fact that there weren't that many great and reliable resources online. So what's your grief Is a really good way for people to find out more information and to do what you did, which was learn, learn, learn and. And find out what was going on.

Thank you so much, Kendra, for that recommendation and thank you so much for being here on the podcast today.

Thank you, Melissa.

Thank you all so much for being here at Grief and Guts as Layden's mom. Being able to spread the stories, the strategies, the lessons I have learned through Layden and from Layden is the thing that means the most, most to me in this world and allowing my daughter's short life to have long and lasting impact by shining her light. Truly, nothing means more if you align with and believe in the work that we're doing here in these messages. The best way to give back and to spread this out into the world is to rate and review on Spotify and on itunes. Thank you for taking just a moment to do that. Feel free to shoot me a message. Let me know what you want to hear more of, what you want to see, see more of. I am here to serve. I'm grateful to do so, and I'm cheering you on in your journeys.

Always.