41: My Grief SuperHero - Here To Talk To You!

Hello, friends, and welcome to Grief Guts and Green Smoothies. I am your host, Melissa Dugalecki, and I am so excited to be here with you all to chat about ways in which we can all get through different adversities, challenges, and loss, and how getting outside of our comfort zone and maybe having a green smoothie or two can help us do so. We will cover different topics, ranging from interviews to recipes, to sharing my own stories of my grief journey and the loss of my daughter, Layden. And I'm honored to be able to share her light in hopes of helping you spread yours. Now, let's dive in. All right, everybody, Today's episode is extra special for me. As you know, I host this podcast. It's all inspired by my daughter, Leiden. And there was a time in my life, a version of me, when I never would have thought this was possible. And that was, you know, subsequently, not surprisingly, after losing my daughter Layden, I called, couldn't see clearly. I struggled to have the energy to take a shower. When I did shower, I couldn't remember if I washed my hair or put in conditioner. I pick up my clothes off the ground and just wear the same things over and over. I would be driving and forget where I was driving to. So you get the point. I know I'm not alone in this, but I never imagined that I would be doing this and holding a space that helps other people in their grief journeys. And I can honestly say that a huge reason I'm able to do so is because the work I did really early on in my grief journey with my grief coach and counselor, Kendra and Kendra, I look and I see this version of me. And the best way I can explain it is if you've ever had a teacher or a coach and you haven't seen them in years, and then you go back and you see them again and you instantly feel like that student again or that kid on their roster. And when I reached out to Kendra and asked her to come on the podcast and we scheduled this time together, I felt like I was returning to that version of me that just showed up at her office desperate. That's the best way I can explain it. I was desperate. She calls me lost, as you will hear, was what she described me. And I had no idea how I was going to piece myself back together. And bit by bit, I began working with her for almost a year. And only recently, only recently reconnected with her, which was a really emotional experience for me. She moved. We did not stay in touch. I did manage to find her Shared with her the work I was doing, thanked her for all that she did to help me heal and grow and strengthen and understand grief. Because understanding grief, which is what I seek to help you all do here, really allowed me to navigate it without that overwhelm of what is going on, that feeling like something was wrong for me. So when she agreed to come onto the podcast, I was beyond excited to share her wisdom, her light, her love, her energy. If you are interested in hearing more about different versions of my journey so that you can understand different versions of yours. Right. And knowing that where I am now is not always where I was and getting to understand the person who helped me truly process the energy of grief, the process of grief, the emotions of grief. This episode is for you. Or if you are supporting anybody in grief and want to know what tools you can do so or try and understand what they're experiencing, this episode is absolutely for you, too. So I am incredibly proud to introduce to you all. Kendra. All right. So, Kendra, thank you so much for. For joining us on Grief Guts and Green Smoothies. We are so honored to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

Yeah. And we're going to dive into your story, the work that you do, how we met, and talk a little bit about that, which I think is a really interesting perspective for people listening and only really seeing me in this version of me. Before we do that, I always have two questions I ask to kind of kick off our interviews, and the first is the title of the podcast. Grief Guts and Green Smoothies is rather unique, and it resonates with people differently. And I would love to know how it resonates with you or what that means, too, when you think about it.

Okay, well, you know, when you first told me the name of it, the way it hit me was it's sort of about overall wellness, I guess, is the vibe I got, you know, because it certainly takes guts to get, you know, going with grief and to get through life and grief in general and to face it every day. And then, you know, the green smoothies part definitely speaks to, I think, your love of health overall and wanting to be healthy emotionally and physically.

Oh, absolutely. And it really does. It encapsulates so much of my grief journey and my current life journey. So I loved hearing that. And, of course, what is your favorite kind of taco?

I'm a traditional girl. I like the classic beef, you know, ground beef, lettuce, tomato, cheese. That's. That's my taco.

Staying true to who you are?

Yes.

And so speaking of that, we met in 2014 after I lost my daughter Layden.

Yes.

At Boston Children's Hospital. And I just remember this sense of fight in myself, like, fight or flight, I think probably kicks in. I thought that if I could just find the right person or hear the right thing, that I could figure this grief thing out. And then, you know, we get through. And so I was on a mission to find something. And I am so beyond grateful that for whatever reasons or events happened, I ended up in your office, because whether or not you know it, I reference you all the time on this podcast as a life coach now. I reference so many of the things that we talked about and that you taught that I think extend beyond even grief. And I really believe, Kendra, like, I was nervous for this. I was, like, afraid I'm gonna cry. I really believe you saved me. Yeah.

Yeah. That's very powerful for me to hear. You know, definitely. And very, you know, flattering. But I would also say, you know, you know me. You know what I'll say? I'll say, no, you saved yourself because you did the work. You know, you worked very hard. Thank you.

So why don't we fill people in on specifically the work that you were doing at that time and letting them know about your maybe your career and the work that you've done.

Okay, sure. Well, I have a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling, and I'm not currently practicing. That's important for people to know. But for seven years, I was a grief therapist, and I would still be a grief therapist, but I stopped for family obligations. I love that work. It suits me. It's just what I'm supposed to do. And that is a bit unique. Not everyone's made for that. But I always worked in. In hospital settings and especially with hospices. So you came into my office at a hospice in Boston, and that's where most grief counseling. You'll find most grief counseling at a hospice setting, especially nonprofit. So if anyone out there is thinking about getting, you know, their own counseling in, a great place to start is their local nonprofit hospice, because even if they don't have extensive grief counseling available, they know where to point you in the right direction. They'll be familiar with that. But I specialized in child loss, so I worked with a lot of parents who lost children, but I also worked with all other losses. I worked with people who lost spouses or siblings or parents or friends, and I worked with both adults and children. So sort of when you do this work, you're you're a finite resource because there are not very many people doing this work. And so you kind of get to work with every kind of loss and every person, really. Yeah.

I've had a lot of people reach out from just speaking about the work that we did and. And say, like, who did you work with? And can I have their. Their information? And I'm, you know, I have to let them know you're not practicing currently. But I think you bring up a really important point that there aren't a lot of people in this, in that, like, niche that really, really are dedicated to grief and loss. And why do you think that is?

Well, you know, we're. We're all human, and death is scary, I think, for most people. And to do this work, you have to be willing to face that fear on a. Well, I was going to say daily basis, but really on an hourly basis, because we see, you know, one person every. It's something that most people don't want to think about, let alone work with every day, and I don't blame them. It's very stressful and difficult at times, and there are some good therapists out there who may not specialize in it, but who are comfortable enough with it. And the thing is that one of the worst parts of grief that most of my clients speak about or spoke about, I should say, is that sense of isolation, and that everyone's kind of afraid they'll catch it almost they'll catch the grief. And so I think, you know, therapists are human, too, and sometimes they're not willing to really work with that exclusively, at least.

So I really remember working through that with you, like, feeling as though people thought it was contagious.

Yes.

Or if they acknowledged it or touched it, that, like, they were welcoming it into their world or saying that was an okay thing. And that was a huge challenge. And thank goodness for the supports that can help with, as you said, that isolation.

Yes. Because, you know, that's one of the most helpful things, I think, is to find someone, even if it's just one person, that you don't feel isolated when you're with that person or you can speak to them about it, because, you know, grief, it is very personal. And at some level, of course, you have to go through it alone, but. But if you can find a support network of some kind, it really helps a lot, I think.

Yeah, I'm going to ask you a little bit about that, because I talk a lot about teammates, which is a concept that you introduced to me when we were Working through things in your office, which is like, I can just visualize it. I can see it. It was like the dim lighting and you had like white noise machine and the little bookshelf that you sat with, the bookshelf right behind you. It's just unbelievable how I can't remember what I ate yesterday.

And I can.

So clearly remember how I felt, what the room looked like, what we talked about. I remember doing activities and writing things out and highlighting colors. Can you explain that on a level more clinical in terms of our memories and those deep, intense emotions?

Yes. I mean, I think that it's really is about the deep, intense emotions. I think when you. Whatever you're going through, you sort of hold on to the sights and sounds and feelings that you have when you are working through those kind of deep down gut emotions. And I think that's just human nature, you know, really. And from a clinical perspective, it's also, you know, linked to how trauma affects the brain. And, you know, I wouldn't call it anything close to ptsd. That's not what I mean. But there, you know, the work around PTSD has let us know how the brain is wired a little bit more with, you know, feeling those emotions that are around our trauma, around these things, and how hard it is to forget, you know, those experiences or. And for some people, it's hard for them to access it because they don't want to re. Experience the pain that was involved. And so I think, you know, remembering very clearly, especially when you were doing as much work as you did in the room, you know, you had a lot of aha moments, I think. And so I think, you know, you remember that whole atmosphere when you remember those ahas.

I love that. And so in addition to what I remember, I would love to hear you kind of talk about, you know, the version of Melissa who came to your office in 2014, you know, a bereaved mom. Because listeners here have really only heard me speak five years out, processing a lot of healing. You know, I don't believe there's a finish line to grief. I don't think you ever get over it. That's good.

That means my lessons stuck. They did. I took a lot of notes.

But I would love to hear you kind of like. And first of all, I'm curious. But second of all, for the listeners, most of us, for them to like, understand that, you know, I'm not just saying that it takes work or that it's possible that I was there, like, I was right.

Okay, well, you know, it gets Sticky for me because I do have all those ethical codes and I can't talk about my clients. But since you're inviting me to talk.

About me as I can, what I.

Would say is that you walked into the office with, you know, of course, the weight of the world on your shoulders in very deep pain, but having what I considered to be extremely normal, common grief reactions, you know, I wouldn't have expected anything different at that stage, because Was it even. It wasn't even a couple months after the loss.

I think it was, honestly, maybe a month after.

Yes, it was very soon. We. We found each other quite soon afterward. And, you know, I would call every reaction you presented with very normal. You know, you were definitely lost. You know, I think you. You expressed that verbally, if I recall correctly. Lost, lost, lost. And just sort of, you know, she was my life. And for a parent to lose a child. That's exactly right. You know, you lose that focus of who you were. You know, you lost your role. And that's. That's something I think everyone can. Well, not everyone, I shouldn't say, but people underestimate about grief, is that you don't just lose the person themselves, which is bad enough. You lose who you were to that person, and who you were to your daughter was a very big deal. To lose somebody who is the central focus of your life and, you know, it's destabilizing, to say the least. And so I think you came in. It was like, you know, and certainly not unique. I don't mean that in a mean way, but, you know, it's extremely normal. But you and every parent that I saw, it was like they'd been. Imagine someone who has just been in a devastating earthquake and their house has fallen down around them. It was like seeing you walk out of that, you know, into my office.

Yeah, that's in my throat right now because I can feel it.

Well, you know, that's definitely. You know, you go back to being that person when you think of it in a way, you know, still, I'm sure, because it's very. It's a. You know, it's the main pain and trauma of your life, and. And it's awfully hard even five years on. Is it five years now? Six.

Well, five and a half. Five years in June that she passed.

Yeah. Okay, five in June. So, I mean, you know, that's good for people to know, too, is that, you know, it's like. It's like being wounded, you know, and there's a scar still. You're never going to forget, and it's never going to not be terrible. But wounds can heal so that it's not painful, as painful to touch them anymore. And so I think that's kind of where your journey seems to be at this point, is that you're. You. You did. When I. When I had children that I worked with, the way I would explain grief to them would be with that analogy. I would say to them, have you ever really hurt yourself? Have you ever cut yourself very deeply or, you know, gotten a big scratch? And most of them would say yes. And, you know, I would say, well, what's. What's the first thing you do when you get really hurt? And they would usually say, I go and tell, you know, my mom, my grandma, my dad, whoever. And that's the first thing everyone in grief should do, is find someone helpful. You know, find someone who can help you with your wound. And then, you know, the second part is what you're speaking about that pain. You can't sew the wound up until you clean out the dirt and the sand and the grit, you know, and the germs. You have to do that. And that is going through the painful emotions, facing that pain. And it's, you know, helpful to talk about it, to journal about it, to, you know, go for a good long run, chop a load of wood, whatever you have to do, you know, to work through it, and then, you know, stitching it up, that's the work. Like what you did in the room with me, that's the work. And it's unpleasant and, you know, it's necessary, but it's. It's hard. And that's why we call it grief work. You know, it's. It's hard work. And then, you know, you have to keep it clean, give the wound time to heal, be gentle with yourself, is what I would say. And then even at the end, there's still that scar there, you know, and it's not the end. There's still that scar there, and you can touch it without being in that raw, terrible pain, but it's there. And you'll, you know, you'll never forget, of course. And you wouldn't want to.

Exactly. I really wouldn't want to because it's.

It's part of who you are. But that integrating the loss into who you are is really, really painful. Yes.

I love the way you just explained that, though. I think that's so valuable for anyone listening in terms of understanding whether it's a child or an adult. Like, that thought of, like, oh, you Let somebody know, and then you tend to it. And then you go through this process and you do the work and then the healing happens. And so often I think adults are more inclined to skip some of those steps.

Yes, we want to. You know, I don't know if it's cultural or if it's just, you know, always been this way, but we want to get to the less hard part as soon as possible, of course. And, you know, but unfortunately with grief, it doesn't, you know, really work that way. And if you do avoid it completely, it often comes up in unhealthy, potentially harmful ways in your life. So, you know, it's one of those things where if you don't tend to it, it will sort of force you to.

Is that something you could elaborate on a little bit? Because it's something I think is said a lot, but is kind of tangible for people. Like, they're like, well, maybe that's true for Joe or Dane, but that's not true for me. I don't need to tend to it.

Well, I think you make a really good point, which is that it is different for every person. You know, one thing people need to know that's very fundamental is that there are no stages. It's very popular in the media to talk about the five stages of grief. That was actually Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who came up with this very brilliant thing. It's. It's not untrue, but she was actually talking about the dying person. The person who was on their deathbed goes through those. And our research over the years has shown that there's no sort of set stages that you go through. And even though grief is universal, we all have losses in our life. And it's also natural. It is a natural process that will happen eventually. There are things you can do that slow it down, make it harder, or put it off way too long in unhealthy ways. And everybody does grieve in a unique way. You know, there might be common experiences. Most people have. You know, the initial shock, numbness. That's, you know, most people, you know, people have physical symptoms. Anger, guilt, of course, obviously sadness, depression, withdrawal, sleep, trouble. All these things are very common.

But.

But people are going to go through them in their own way. They're not going to go through some sort of set formula to healing. There's no formula. But the beauty of there not being a formula is that you are the expert in your own grief. You get to decide what's right for you to heal, for you to survive on the days when we're not talking healing, we're talking getting through the day, you know, because there are a lot of those. And I think it's important also to know that there's a real spectrum for how people deal with it. I think that goes to. Your original question is, you know, on the one end there's what we call intuitive grieving, and on the other end, we call it instrumental grieving. And everyone is really a mixture. You were a mixture of these two.

So I'd love to hear more about that.

Yeah. So intuitive. Intuitive grief is what. What you might see in a Hollywood movie as grief, you know, crying. Crying is helpful. Talking it out is helpful. Journaling is helpful. Those kinds of expressive things, and those are done by people who have a sort of an easier time feeling in general, you know, in processing emotion in general. And then on the instrumental side, those are people who are helped much more by being active with their grief. So those are people who are more oriented toward rationalization, thinking, or being a doer. So people might be helped in. If they are really instrumental, people might be helped with things like chopping wood. I said that earlier. I think, you know, something to get out the anger, going for a long run, rage, cleaning the house, you know, that kind of stuff. But also, you know, the moms against drunk driving mad. Yeah, that is a perfect example of instrumental grief. That mother wanted to take action because she lost her child to a drunk driver, and so she started mad. So that's a good example of instrumental. So most people are somewhere in the middle. You know, nobody's one extreme or the other. But I would say, just as an example with you, not only did you journal, which I think was extremely helpful for you, but you also trained for a marathon, you know, and you were really serious about being physical and active every day. And I think both were helpful to you. And I think it's good to know that everyone does handle it differently, and there's going to be some different mix of those for each person. So if your brother doesn't handle the death of your parent the same way you do, it doesn't mean he's not handling it. It just means he might be handling it differently. It's only really total avoidance. That's troublesome. The other thing I should say, if I can, is there's a theory called oscillation, the oscillation grief theory. And it's. And I think it's very true. It says that it's not like you have to sustain, focus on just grieving all the time. No One can really do that. We all have to eventually, you know, go to the grocery store and try not to cry in aisle three. We have to all go to work. Or maybe you've lost a child, but you have three other children. You know, there are roles we still have to fulfill in our lives. So no one can sustain emotionally focusing totally on the grief all the time. So occasional avoidance is helpful, actually. And the reason, you know, oscillation is like those fans, but, you know, go back and forth and back and forth. So you might have time where you're focused on the grief and time where you need to avoid it. And that's okay, is what that theory says, because, you know, really, if you think about it, there. There are so many different ways that could look. I have clients who have set grief time. Like, they would literally put it in their schedule that, okay, after work, I can handle it. I'm going to look through my husband's clothes, or I'm going to put together a memory book for my. Or I'm going to do something related to my grief and kind of focus on it. But during the day when I need to have a breakdown, but I can't, I'm gonna tell myself, don't worry, you've got your grief time in the evening. You know, and. And that worked for lots of people, actually. And then there are people who, you know, they have just days where they can't do anything but grief. And that's how I. That's one reason why grief is natural. It's because sometimes it forces itself on you and you can do nothing but grieve. You might stay in bed for a day, and that's also okay.

Yeah, you. You bring up so many things that I remember breaking down and what I talk a lot about on this podcast and in general now, you know, my work as a life coach, I feel as though what I learned in grief with you since is really a microcosm of, like, life. Right. And challenges. And you talked a lot about that. And I remember you saying how what grief does is it kind of takes all of our stuff and, like, puts a magnifying glass and, like, takes it right up to the surface.

Yes.

Yeah.

If you could explain that. Well, it's the stress factor, really. I mean, grief is the most extreme stress that most people will ever go through. It's hard to imagine anything more stressful, really.

Honestly, I can't imagine.

No. And so when you are in that pressure cooker of stress, that is completely unavoidable. I mean, you know, you're the victim of circumstance, quite literally in that situation. And, you know, anytime you're in that much stress, it's going to bring everything to the front that's difficult and negative. And you're going to have a harder time enacting the coping strategies that get you through a normal life. You're going to have a harder time keeping the emotions that you don't want to come out from coming out because you just, you know, it's almost like if you had. Well, again, back to the wound analogy, actually, just imagine your skin is just red raw. And that's how grief is. And that's how. That's how a lot of stress is. But that's especially how grief is. You know, anyone touching you, even the lightest touch is going to be so excruciating. And so I would say that's probably my best analogy for why it's like that. Because it's like your. Your heart has been rubbed red raw.

Right.

And you cannot take one more thing. It's why, you know, people think they're going crazy almost especially at the beginning when it's so painful, because, you know, they're. They're driving down the road and a song that. That, you know, maybe their. Say their husband in this situation has died and. And a song he hated comes on the radio and they're bawling their eyes out and they have to pull over on the side of the road, you know, because they can't take it. Just the memories and it's just. You're red raw.

And I think it also plays into. And correct me if I'm wrong, but, you know, your reference of how we all grieve differently, it's. If all of those things, like all of our rawness is coming up to the surface, then it makes sense that we're going to grieve in a way that's really true to our authentic nature and our authentic selves, and that is going to look different for everybody. So me, I'm a very verbal. I'm a high, you know, communicator, and I need to talk and talk and talk and write and write and write. So that was really intense for me. But that's not everyone's experience, right?

Yes. For some people, that would not work at all because it's not who they are, you know, deep down, really. But I think you're right. I think because it's such a raw experience and it does expose all those nerve endings to do it in a way that's inauthentic to yourself, Makes it very, very difficult and painful. And I have had clients who have been in situations where, you know, they were sort of pressured to do it differently than they would have left to their own devices. And sometimes that's not been, you know, super helpful to them, you know, and they. They struggle more. Really.

How do you help people tease out the difference between avoiding their grief or being authentic about the way in which they're managing it? Because I see this even in challenges around. Not around grief, but in life, you know, other life challenges. It can become really gray and muddled between, are we avoiding something, are we stuffing it down, or am I just coping with it differently, or is this my authentic way of dealing with it? And how do you untangle those?

Well, it's really, really difficult sometimes, especially with people who are very good at sounding like they're doing something or convincing themselves that they're really working on it, but just not this week, you know, that kind of thing. And so it's difficult. But I think that my belief as a therapist in general, let alone a grief therapist, but my belief is that every person, when they spend time with themselves, they know, you know, they. I think deep down, when they're being honest with themselves, they sort of know when that feeling, it's almost. If you're really avoiding the grief and you're really stuffing it down, it almost feels literally like you're stuffing it down. For most people, I think, you know, you feel sort of bottled up and tense, I think. And so I, you know, I just try to say, well, you know, is. Is what you're doing working for you, what is it doing for you to avoid right now? You know, what does avoidance do? Because avoidance meets a need of some kind, and it may be a healthy need at that moment, but if it goes on and on and on, maybe, you know, that's a sign it's not so healthy. So you just have to really help the person, I think, think through, you know, what is. How. Is what I'm doing serving me? You know, is it. Is it serving me? Because I just feel so red raw. I'm afraid right now to deal with it. But I'm gonna find a way to deal with it when I'm ready, and that's okay. You know, they don't have to do it on our schedule, so to speak, and that's tough. It's hard for family members to. When they're supporting someone who's grieving, it's really tough to give them space and time and sort of trust that person with Themselves, you know, it's very hard, as someone who cares, to wait.

Yeah. That was something you helped me so much with in terms of, you know, two relationships that pop right up to mind when I think about it. One was with my mom and so Layden's grandmother and recognizing that, you know, she had her own needs and her own grief. And a lot of the way that was going to play out was going to be her wanting to make sure I was okay. And sometimes the way in which, you know, she needed to be met didn't always coexist with what I needed.

Right.

Helping me understand it in a way so that I could see her needs and what needed to be met and have conversations about them and figure out a way that we could collaboratively do that so it didn't create more distance. Yes.

And I remember, you know, some of our conversations around that. And I remember the word forthright. And, And. And you were so brave. You. You became forthright, I think, with more people about what you needed, you know, and didn't need.

Yeah. Remember, too. I mean, this. This came up, too. I mean, with Layden's dad. There's a lot of things I learned there in our time, but, you know, one was I needed to focus on my own grief journey because I was so worried about his grief journey, how that was going to impact my grief journey. What was the way that, you know, and you were like, you got to stay in your lane. You got it. You got to get, like, your grief journey. And then on top of that, also to what you've been speaking about, of saying, you know, if you want to write, you know, 15 pages, that doesn't make it right or wrong. But if he wants to chop wood and doesn't want to pick up a pen, that doesn't make it right or wrong. And it really instilled this entire concept of honoring. Right. My own needs and understanding them and respecting and honoring other needs.

And. And, you know, that can be really tough because none of us grieve in isolation completely. We have relationships with other people who are also grieving, you know, the people in our lives. And, you know, Laden especially, you know, impacted a lot of people. And, you know, you can't. You can't have a special soul in the world and not expect everyone else around you to be devastated as well. And it's. It's very hard to grieve in relationship. I think that's really tough. And, you know, one thing. One thing is that sometimes we. And especially women, it's not just women, you Know, we don't want to get too gender stereotyped, but. But women do tend to be in relationships with people where we're the nurturers and we kind of want to make sure everyone else is okay. And that can make that kind of belief about yourself and your role can make it very difficult to grieve authentically and for yourself. Because grief is a real. You have a self focus, it's a turning inward and a self focus. In order for you to heal from the grief, you have to pay attention to yourself. And when you're trying to pay attention to other people, that can be a form of avoidance because it's less painful to tell him what he's doing wrong. It feels much better to direct and guide than it does. Yes. Much less frightening. This is the list of things you.

Need to do, right?

Yes, exactly.

I talk a lot about that. I have an episode coming out shortly after this actually on taking personal responsibility. And a lot of what I learned in my grief, like I had to take full responsibility for my grief. I couldn't. I could, but it wasn't going to serve me or anyone else well if I just stayed in that space of victimization and stayed in that space of like, how could I, or this is what it should, or how could this happen? Or this is what it should look like. And you know, and it also was humbling.

Yes, well, it is humbling. And the thing is that it's not wrong to be in that space. When you're in there, your emotions just exist. That's how I look at it is your emotions just exist, but they don't necessarily need to be in charge, you know, so it's okay to feel angry. And anger is often very justified, you know, because especially when you lose a child, that is an out of order death. That's not the natural order of things, you know, and anger is top on most people's list. You know, it's okay to feel guilty, it's okay to feel depressed, it's okay to feel any number of emotions, you know, with, with your grief. And it's totally fine to, to be there. But I think that part of the natural process is you have to go through those emotions and be in that pain and clean that wound out in order to get to healing. Because what I find is people try to dodge those emotions or not admit that they're having them. But healing is really in those emotions. That's where the healing actually takes place, is in the difficult places. And you could think of it, you know, one thing that a hospice grief counselor loves is a butterfly. We are into butterflies, the transformation and all that. But. But just to go to that analogy, it is. It's like when you're the caterpillar, you know, they don't just go in a cocoon and suddenly they're a butterfly. They go in and they dissolve. They actually stop existing as they did before. You know, they're just goo. And when you feel like you're a gooey mess, that means you're in the cocoon. And that's what grief is in a lot of ways, is that process of dissolving and reforming.

That's amazing. I've actually. I've heard that quote all the time. Right. Just when the caterpillar thought its life was over.

Yes, yes.

But I've never heard it explained like that. So that's. You have so many nuggets, Kendra.

Well, when you. When you work with so many people, you. You pick up some things.

Well, and speaking of which, I would love, because a lot of people listening actually are in the space of maybe grief coaching or just coaching or counseling, had a lot of different coaches and counselors reach out and what advice do you have in terms of, you know, you very quickly were able to kind of read me, figure out where I was at, figure out what I needed. Took me through this entire process. But, I mean, you've also alluded to working with children and working with adults and to working in a space where everybody's going to grieve so differently. So how do you manage that, like, all these varying needs?

Well, so my theoretical base as a therapist is what we call person centered. So it means that I believe, as the sort of central tenet of my take on psychology, I believe that every person has it within them to be a better version of themselves, whatever that may be. So outside, I would I say it that way because outside of grief, they still do this theory, you know, and I believe that we all know inside of ourselves, really, that what we need and that that is the beautiful part of it for me, because I don't have to come in and be an expert. I don't have to walk in there and say, okay, here is the prescription for your life. Because I don't know you. When you walk into my office, we don't, you know, we don't know each other. If you wanted someone who knew you and was going to sort of give you a list of what to do and what not to do, you could go to a best friend, that would be better, you know, but what What a professional does, what a listening and helping professional, which encompasses coaching, counseling, psychology, you know, psychiatry. What we do at our very base is we help you explore yourself. So that means we shouldn't be imposing our thoughts on what's moral or what's going to work or what's not going to work on the client. We should really be listening very deeply and rephrasing what you say to us so that you can hear your own inner workings. You can hear what you thought and what you've said put back to you. And that is usually the most productive part of a session for me, is if I'm really able to just reflect. That's what the skill is called, reflecting. And if I can hold up that mirror to a client, then I've had a good session. And, you know, and name emotions. People. People speak in emotion, of course, but they don't necessarily name it. So I might say, you know, I might say, and that was devastating to someone who's just told me their story. And then I hear them repeat it back, and I know it hit, if that makes sense. I know that they got what I meant. I know that I got what their emotion was. You know, they'll often respond, yeah, yeah, totally devastating. And then, you know, okay, I got it. And restating emotion, reflecting. And then you can expand on meaning. You know, if people are. If there's sort of a theme that you're seeing through the sessions, then you can present that. And. And the way I do it is I don't say, this is what you are doing. I say, I've noticed that you've said this phrase, I remember many times. I'm telling you all my secrets. I remember you doing that all the time. And then what you're doing, though, is you're presenting it to the clients so that they don't feel that you're prescribing it to them, or you're saying, this is you in a nutshell, in an aggressive way. But it gives them the chance to reflect on it and either accept it or reject it, but it makes them think either way. And then they still get to be in charge of themselves. And I think that, you know, you can't take me home with you at the end of a session. So it's more. It's much more important. Important for me to, as we say in the south, to work myself out of a job. You know, that's the idea, is that you're not supposed to need the helping professional eventually. That's the idea. And so to sort of help that person look at themselves in a deep way. I think is. Is the job.

I love that. And then whether it's a professional or just a friend or, you know, somebody connected to somebody grieving, you know, you have to. And as you alluded to, there's not an abundance of professionals in the field of grief and loss because of how challenging it is. So professional or not, or just personal. Right. A sister friend, what advice do you have for them in terms of kind of being able to almost shelf their own experience for moments to show up for the person? That's not easy.

No, it's not easy. And especially with grief, because, you know, you have. Everybody has their own stuff to deal with as far as fear of death, grief. We all have our own whys and our background. You know, what were we taught about death as children? What experiences have we had with grief and death in the past? There's all sorts of cultural things. You know, what was their relationship with the deceased person versus yours? There's all kinds of problems and issues. So I think it's really hard for people to show up for each other in this situation. But the people who do it best are the people who are able to say, it's not about you right now, you know, to themselves, it's not about me. I'm gonna be there for them, and I'm just gonna be present. And I think that what we think in our heads is we need to help them. Meaning we need to do something. We need to fix their pain. We need to lessen their pain. And I think the fact of the matter is that you cannot do that. I don't think any of us are that powerful. If I was that powerful, I would charge way more money, you know, And I think all of us would if I could just say abracadabra. And, you know, so you can't actually take a death off their shoulders. You can't fix it. And so I think what's important for people to know is that all grieving people really need is your authentic presence. They need you to show up. They need you to check in on them, you know, and don't give up. Basically, they need you to just not worry about the right words. You know, they need you to show up and say, I can't imagine what this is like for you, but I just want you to know that while you're carrying this and while you're going through this, I'm here, and I'm really here, not BS here. Call me if you need something. But really, truly, I will be Checking on you. And, you know, please know that I'm here and I'm trying. And I think that that is far more powerful than coming up with the quote unquote. Right. Words which don't exist.

You know, they really don't.

No.

And it's better than nothing. And we. I remember talking about this with you is so often people say nothing because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing, but that just compounds isolation.

Yes, it does. And it also makes you feel as though your person that you lost has been forgotten. And I think that's in some ways worse than even your own grief. You know, you don't want to think this. That life has not mattered. And, you know, when people ignore it, which is the safer thing to do for them, it's the. It's the absolute worst thing they can do for their friend or family member or whoever it might be.

It's so interesting you say that because one of my. I have made some really difficult decisions or choices or maybe, I don't know, difficult is even the right word in terms of intricate. Maybe what I've come back to is what best honors Layden or what best shines Layden's light. And, I mean, that's just indicative of my grief. Right. Still being so powerful and me needing to make sure, like, Layden's life mattered, you know?

Absolutely. And especially, you know, with a life so short and so important, you know, and you want to carry that forward, and you are certainly not alone. Everyone that I've ever worked with, that mattered with them, you know, it matters to them so much that their loved one isn't forgotten, that their legacy lives on, and they find ways of doing that. And everyone finds all of these amazing and unique and sometimes surprising ways to remember their loved ones, you know, and sometimes the people around them are not very supportive about it.

Yeah.

And, you know, especially if it seems a bit out of the accepted, you know, realm of behavior. But I find that when people do what feels right to them, that usually turns out better.

Holy cow. That was a lot of value, a lot of learning, and so much support for anyone experiencing grief at any level. Right. Grief is. Grief isn't just loss of life. Grief can be grieving a future that you envisioned. It could be grieving a relationship. It could be moving. It could be changing your identity. Any major loss can evoke this energy of grief. And Kendra is just like, she's a grief miracle worker. I am so grateful that the universe led me to her, and I'm so glad that she's able to to share her knowledge with you. And she has so much to share that she is coming back for a second episode. She will be back and we are going to talk specifically about the top lessons I learned from her, the top things she wants people to know and tangible steps that somebody in grief can take, as well as tangible steps that somebody supporting others in grief reef can take. So we are just going to build on all this amazing value that she offered. I don't know about you, but I am certainly excited for that.