43: Melissa's Grief SuperHero Returns! Supporting Yourself and Others in The Grief Journey

Hello, friends, and welcome to Grief Guts and Green Smoothies. I am your host, Melissa Dugalecki, and I am so excited to be here with you all to chat about ways in which we can all get through different adversities, challenges and loss and how getting outside of our comfort zone and maybe having a green smoothie or two can help us do so. We will cover different topics, ranging from interviews to recipes to sharing my own stories of my grief journey and the loss of my daughter, Layden. And I'm honored to be able to share her light in hopes of helping you spread yours. Now let's dive in. Today we are welcoming back Kendra. Kendra was my grief coach, my grief counselor, and she is the person I credit with helping me piece back together the most shattered, sharp, broken pieces of me that literally found their way to her office in Wellesley, Massachusetts. And I didn't have any hope. And she helped me find hope just one session at a time, which is where I really began to believe and understand the power of committing to doing the work for ourselves. And the more challenging and overwhelming it seems, actually, the more that we need it. And without a doubt, she's a huge part of my journey and why I now speak about grief and why I'm a life coach and mindset coach because of the strategy she taught me and we covered so much value. If you didn't hear it, go back and listen to her first episode. But she is back today and we are talking specifically about the lessons that I remember the most now. These are ones that I teach in my life coaching. These are ones that I apply to the work that's done in the mindset content of MOVE that are interpreted and applied a little bit differently but inspired. Here I'm going to share those. Kendra shares her biggest takeaways. She wants people to understand about grief and action steps, tangible steps that you can take if you're going through grief or if you're supporting someone through grief to help them navigate or help yourself navigate those choppy waters because they're not easy. You don't have to do it alone. And with these strategies, you're going to support yourself as productively and progressively as possible. So without further ado, let's welcome back Kendra. All right, Kendra, welcome back to the podcast Grief Guts and Green Smoothies. We are so honored and excited to have you back here with us.

Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be back and we.

Got into so many great things in our first episode and had so much more to share. But full disclosure, full transparency to the Audience, which is really important to me is we made the decision to break this in two episodes because grief is heavy, loss is heavy. And sitting in that space and going deeper and deeper and deeper, we just felt like energetically you and I talked and we felt like we needed to kind of give some reflection time and some processing time and not go too deep too quickly. And could you just kind of note how, you know, that applies to your grief journey as well?

Absolutely. You know, it really mirrors the way that we need to handle grief. We need to have the ability to take a break sometimes and to have a lot of self reflection, a lot of processing time, for lack of a better phrase. It's really important to acknowledge that when you're grieving, it's heavy. It's like carrying around a backpack full of rocks. And sometimes you need to sit down for a minute and have a little time.

And so with that, I'm really excited to be able to now go a little bit deeper. And today we are going to really talk about the lessons that I took away from our work and how I apply those to life. And you're going to give such value in terms of sharing. And I'm excited for everyone to hear tangible tips that people can really take into action and so kind of transitioning from thoughts and processing and understanding to action steps.

Absolutely. Because it's good to have an understanding of grief. It's good to have that self reflection time. But I think especially in this format where it's not therapy, it's informational only, it's good to leave thinking. Okay, that one thing she said sounded like it might work for me. And maybe having something you can hold on to when you leave this podcast. I would love for someone to be able to have that.

I would love to just kind of share with you because I think it might be interesting for you to hear some of the lessons that I teach and that still really, really resonate with me and see if you have like anything you want to add. Because again, this is my brain from trauma and grief and the processing that lens. And then here, you know what? Just kind of final tips you have, you know, for anybody going through grief or supporting grief. Does that sound like a good plan?

Yes, absolutely. I'm very curious. I want to hear what you, what you've done.

So you've alluded to a few of them, but one of the first was the lesson around teammates and the doers, the distractors, the listeners and the Xers.

Ah, you remember. Yes, all of them.

The roles that they play but how you can actually empower yourself by not expecting everyone to be every type of teammate and positioning them to be a successful teammate for what you need.

Yes. That's. It's so funny you bring that up as the first one, because I literally wrote it down last night when I was preparing for this. And I wrote it down because I said, I remember that. That really resonated with you in session. So I said, I better write that down. So I remember to say that.

Unbelievable.

Well, you know, it's easy when you. You're looking at a person you know across the room that matters to you, and so, you know, it's easy to remember people's stories. I'm not good with people's names, but I'm good at their stories. But, yes, and I think. I think, you know, the most important part of that is just what you said, which is putting them in a position to be successful for you and putting yourself in a position to get the kind of help you need when you need it. Instead of feeling frustrated when you're asking someone who is not a good listener, you know, but. But would be amazing at, you know, going and running errands for you or taking you somewhere or doing something. They would be awesome for that kind of support. But asking them to be this deep listener is not going to happen. And you're just going to leave that relationship and that, you know, moment feeling really frustrated and alone. Whereas if you just expected from them the doing to begin with, it would. It would go better. And also just. I tell people to literally make a list. Do not let other people see that list.

I have many of them.

Yeah, but it's helpful to make a list and say, what category is. Is my mom. What category is my, you know, my friend or my cousin? It's helpful.

Another one was secondary losses. So I remember, like, well, what other losses came from this? And I was. I remember looking at you like, laden.

Yes. You're like, that's enough. Thank you very. Because that's. That's the perfect reaction to the word secondary losses when your child has died is. I think. I think she was enough. Thank you.

I couldn't understand. I'm like, kendra, what are you talking about? Like, he's the only loss I care about. And you went on to explain, like, I lost being a mom. I lost seeing my brothers be uncles. I lost seeing, you know, having a certain family dynamic. I lost mothering with my best college girlfriends. And, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah.

Add to secondary losses. But that struck me.

I think that that is something that goes unacknowledged, I guess, is the right word often. I mean, it's real and it. And it's true for everyone, but it definitely goes unacknowledged that you lose so much more than just the person, which is, like I say, enough, that's plenty. But in. In addition to that, you do. You lose the role that you played in their life. You. You lose. You lose your own idea of yourself as well. I think that's something that goes really deep and that acknowledging openly can help in the healing process because you have to sort of remake yourself with grief now integrated in there and the loss integrated in there. And I think acknowledging that you have to process the loss of your old identity can. Can be really helpful to just know that openly.

Yeah, no, I love that. But I think, again, it almost becomes empowering when you can unpack and, okay, here's a layer here. Here's a layer here. And you can. Maybe tending to the loss of Laden was too heavy one day, but I tend to the loss of, you know, something out, like a secondary loss. I could. I could tend to that.

Exactly. Well, you know, that is such a good point because you're right. The actual death itself, the loss from death is so heavy and so burdensome, and it seems overwhelming. And I think that unpacking it, like you say, it helps to break it apart into smaller pieces. It's the way they teach in schools. You know, they don't say, here is Pride and Prejudice to a first grader. Read that. You know, they teach you the steps. They break it apart into manageable pieces. And I think that unpacking your secondary losses is a really big piece of. Of making it more manageable. I totally agree with that. Yeah.

Okay, then we have the ladder.

Okay.

Remember the ladder.

I. It doesn't come right to my mind, I have to tell you.

No, it's fine. It was. I love this. I think it's so great for life. It was laying out what was at the top of the rung. Like, the top of the rung for me and my ladder and maybe other people in my life when I was going through the grieving process. So for me, like, number one was like Layden, and then number two was healing my grief, and then number three was like training for the marathon with Laden. And then other things fell down and understanding that Layden and my grief weren't necessarily at the top of other people's ladders, and it was just really like. It was one of those aha moments that you talked about in terms of, well, if I have the expectations of other people to have my grief at the top of their ladder, like, that's unreasonable. And again, it put me in a place to understand personal responsibility and like, I've got to take care of my own grief is this sucks and I've got to take care of it.

Yeah, yeah. I think that was a really, you know, important thing to understand. And when you say it, I remember you writing down on the rungs. I do. But. But yeah, I think that's important because it's a way of ranking it, you know, and what's. What really matters to you at that moment is going to be very different to what matters to other people who don't have those experiences. And, and just kind of acknowledging that, again, you have to turn inward a bit and focus on yourself, which doesn't feel natural for everyone to do. And I think, you know, it's a good acknowledgment of how you exist in reality too, you know, that other people's ladders are maybe even leaned up against a different wall, let alone what's on the top of their rungs.

I know.

So, yeah, I think it's a great.

You know, check for anyone listening if you find yourself having that moment of, like, why did that person do this for me? Or why didn't they get back to my email yet? Or why, you know, don't they seem to understand this? Like, take a look at, like, ladders. Right. And like, we have to remember we're not always the top of everyone's ladder and reasonable expectation. And I think it comes back to that personal responsibility, which is also a sense of empowerment. Yes.

I think that's the thing is that people sometimes mix up personal responsibility with it being a burden, whereas I think that we should look at it as an empowering thing. Because if we're in charge of ourselves, that means that we get to make the choices, and so we get to climb up our own ladder instead of trying to climb up everyone else's ladders. And otherwise you're never going to reach the top. You're never going to accomplish much because you're too busy with, what does this person want for me, what does that person want from me? And taking, Taking personal responsibility is, you know, it's hard. It's hard work. That's why a lot of people don't do it. I know, but it's. It to me is empowering because it means that, you know, like I always say, you're the expert in your Own grief. To me, those are very much the same statement. Yeah.

We're the experts in our own lives, right?

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

And then the last one, I mean, I have so many more, but the last, I think about all the time is building your world. And I remember making this circle and how much of it grief took up was the entire circle. And it was that. It's not that the circle ever gets smaller or the grief takes up less room in that circle. It's that we build around it. Right.

And your life gets bigger.

Yeah, your life gets bigger. So the percentage that the grief or the loss takes up might be smaller, but the grief itself hasn't lessened.

Yes. That's a really powerful image, I think, because I think people traditionally think of grief as. It's really huge in your life, and then it gets less and less and less and less, and you stay the same size. And that's not. Sometimes that is people's experience. There are people and depends on the type of loss and all of the background, you know, of the loss. But for most people that I've worked with, it's. The grief stays just as big as always, but the person grows larger around it. Just like you said. Percentage. The grief takes up, becomes smaller.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a. That's a really good image. I think I like that image. So I just.

I can't thank you enough. I. I believe it's really been a hard thing for me to maintain my belief with that, you know, not. Maybe not every single thing in our life happens for a reason, but there is greater meaning and purpose things that happen. And I honestly in my heart believe that Leiden's looking out for her mom when she led me to you because I was my most vulnerable, broken version of me. Hopefully that'll ever be.

We all hope. Yes, we hope so. Yes.

You just held that, those shattered bits, until I was ready to kind of hold them and piece them together. And I can't thank you enough.

Well, I'm so honored. You know, I was honored when you walked into the office, and I'm still honored because it's a precious and sacred thing, I guess is the word, to hold someone else, you know, and hold space for their pain and hold space for their story. And, you know, it's. It's very special to me to be able to do that. So I just, you know, and I appreciate. I appreciate the person you are and the work that you put in because you. You did the work, you know, you really, really did the work.

Thank you. And you have so much to offer. I would just love, if there's anything, you know, any final, like, kind of tips or advice or just something you want to leave people listening with. It would be such a gift and an honor to be able to share that.

Well, I'll try. I'll try to be as profound as possible. But, you know, I think that maybe the most fundamental thing to know about grief, especially when you're in the early part of it, but also in the middle, is that grief is not a linear process. Grief is not a straight line. And. And I find people don't know they have that mental map of it, but they do. You know, they live off of a mental map of grief in this straight line pointing upward where it's the worst when it first happens and then you progressively feel better. And, you know, the. Unfortunately, to be the bearer of bad news, grief does not look like that. Grief is a roller coaster. And so no matter how long you're grieving, you'll have roller coaster days where you have those loops. And, you know, people often get to a place where they think, oh, I'm doing okay. And then they. Maybe a holiday comes up or the person's birthday or the day of the loss, the anniversary of the loss, and they go. Or anything, and they go around a loop and they sort of go back down a little bit. They think, oh, no, you know, I was doing so well, and now I'm having a hard time again. And sometimes people get very stuck there because they think that's the new normal. And so what I guess I want people to know is that you have to ride the roller coaster. But overall, the progress is up, the progress is improvement, but it's not going to feel that way all the time. And so I just, you know, I just noticed in my work that people who had that mental map of that straight line, you know, going up on a graph, they tend to. They tended to struggle more because they weren't expecting the ups and the downs with it. And therefore, we're not giving themselves permission to have hard days and to really grieve. You know, you have to give yourself permission to. To seek help, to talk to someone about it, to feel the pain when you can, to oscillate back and forth toward the pain you have to expect grief attacks. You know, it sneaks up on you sometimes, and if you know that that might happen, it seems to make it more manageable when it does happen. And then, you know, you're just. You're going to have to find maybe some forthrightness with people like you did. That, I think is very helpful if you can say to someone, I'm going to have tough times, and I'm not always going to accept your very kind invitation to go out or. Or to come to Thanksgiving or whatever. Please don't stop inviting me, because one day I will feel like saying yes. Just kind of have those conversations with people. I think that's part of giving yourself the permission to be a grieving person. None of us want to be that person, but all of us are at some point in our lives. And, you know, just that it's okay to accept help. It's okay not to be, you know, living your best life. As, you know, as they say, it's okay to hurt and to be human and to get help from people when you need it. And it doesn't mean you're weak or any. Any of the negative thoughts maybe we have around that. It means that you're very, very strong. I think your strongest day was when you were broken, but you still drove in a car, got out of it, came up an elevator, and walked into my office. I think that was your strongest day.

I remember that day. Oh, it was so painful. I was so scared, and I am so grateful for it.

That is the thing, is that, you know, it's hard to face these things, but facing them is more helpful than not facing them. And, you know, and it's. That's why it's good to get some good teammates. Like you say, it's good to get some good teammates, and. And it's good to just know that there are people out there who get it. There are people out there who are not afraid of the grief and the pain and can be there for you.

Well, I'm grateful that you were so. Thank you.

Well, it was. I guess as a grief therapist, I'm not supposed to say it was a pleasure, because that's not exactly what I mean, but helping you and seeing your growth and just the way that you've come through and done the work, it's been a pleasure to see that.

All right, Kendra, I know you alluded to having some tangible, tangible steps for listeners to be able to implement, and that's just going to be so incredibly impactful for them and their families. So I just want you to take it away in terms of what steps you want to offer to those managing grief.

Okay. Well, I actually think I want to start with maybe how you could be supportive to others in their grief.

Perfect.

Because that's a little bit lighter, maybe. And then go into helping people, you know, who are themselves coping with grief.

I love that.

So when it comes to supporting others in their grief, I think, you know, I pulled out four sort of steps or points that I think are the most important. And the first, and I would say chief among them, is do not avoid grief.

Your.

Your people when they're grieving, do not avoid family, your friends, your co workers, because that really adds to a sense of isolation. We talked about that a little bit last time. No one's going to have the right words to say at grief. There is no such thing. We don't have the power to take away pain or to fix anything. But our authentic presence can bring a lot of comfort just in and of itself. Just being there with the person, making them feel less alone, helping them feel supported, just, just by being there is so important. And I think you were saying, you know, it felt to you sometimes that people thought grief was contagious.

Yeah.

And so if we can get past our own stuff around death and grief and our own fears and our own uncomfortable feelings, we can really be there for our people.

I love that.

Yeah.

So don't avoid.

Yes, don't avoid. Then the second point that I think is really important to know is don't bring your directions with you. No shoulds. Don't bring your shoulds and impose them on the griever because it makes them feel like, okay, I'm already in this much pain and my life's already a mess and I can't even grieve correctly. So it can be shaming and it can make them distance themselves from you. It's not. When you're there for someone who's grieving, it's not about preaching. You're not there to fix. You can't fix it. It is unfixable. So you have to let go of that idea. And you're really just there to listen and to help where you can. But no shifts.

Yeah. And that's interesting. That's something adding on to the life lessons that I really coach people to eliminate the word should from their vocabulary in or out of grief, because it is, like you said, it's shaming. So no shoulds.

No shoulds. And then number three, talk about their loved one. Talk about the person who's gone. Don't be afraid to mention it. They have not forgotten. You're not going to make. Make them cry, quote, unquote. Make them cry. And you're not going to upset them. They're already upset, I promise. And so don't be. Don't avoid mentioning that person's name because that is precious to them. Share memories, share funny stories, share that person. And help. Help your grieving friend or family member know that that person's not going to be forgotten.

Yes, absolutely. Helping them kind of carry the spirit or the light or whatever it is so that they're not feeling as though that person didn't matter or exist or didn't live. Right.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

I love those.

And then number four, I just want people to know to let the grieving person sort of be your guide. So if you're in a situation and you're not sure what to do do or how to support them, you can always ask. If you're concerned about them, ask them directly. It's okay. You don't have to go and talk about them to other people and come up with some sort of strategy. They won't literally shatter into pieces. And it might be tough, but it's always better to let them guide you. And if they do ask you for a specific type of support, try, Try your best. And if you can't do it, try to help them figure out a plan for someone else who can.

I love that. Yeah. One of the things we've talked about in here is just, it's okay to say I'm not sure how to best support you. What feels right for you, how can I show up for you? And just saying that and owning that and how loving that really is, those are so valuable. Kendra.

Yes. And if, you know, just being. Just be real with people. That's. That's kind of all four of those all wrapped up in one.

Yeah. So, yeah. Don't avoid no shoulds. Remember that person, help that, you know, help the griever remember their person that they lost. And asking. Right. Allowing the griever to be in the driver's seat for their. So wonderful. Thank you.

Absolutely. And then the next sort of action steps that I came up with, funnily enough, there are only three of them. But therefore, the person going through grief. But I think they kind of speak to the most important ways to go forward because as we said last time, everyone does grieve differently. And the specifics, the nitty gritty of how you choose to grieve and how your best self, your best authentic self processes grief and how to best help yourself, you know, that's going to look different for everybody. So I tried to sort of pull out three things that you could apply in whatever way might be useful. And of course, my. My top advice before I get into Those points is if you are worried about you, you're the expert on yourself. And if you're worried about you, it's good to go and seek professional help. Even if it's just sitting down with someone like me who you just want to say, listen, I'm worried about this. Is that something I should worry about? You know, even if it's just that it's always a good plan to pull in more help rather than less. So on that. The first coping strategy for someone who's grieving is to one, identify support in your life. And you and I touched on that, you know, sort of choosing your teammates and that sort of thing. And then the second part of that is accepting support. Because sometimes you can say, yes, I can see that they would be helpful. But then actually taking people up on their helpful offers is harder. It's almost. It makes everything more real sometimes. And help can come from many avenues. It can be family and friends, professionals, it can be fellow grievers. It can be books and articles or podcasts like this one. You know, anyone in your community, if it helps you, if you feel helped, that counts.

I love that. I love that. Not complicating it, Right. But allowing it.

Yeah. Yes, yeah, exactly. And then the second coping strategy that is planning out grief time. And I really like that one because it can have lots and lots of different ways it looks. It doesn't need to stay the same. You can be flexible while you're adjusting to this huge change in your life, but if you take the effort and the time to see to your grief, whether it's every day or every other day, whatever it needs to be for you, knowing you've got that time set aside, where you can hurt, you can process painful feelings, where you can do what you need to do to tend to your grief, it really allows you to do the hard work, to move through your grief. And you know that you're now paying attention to it, that it's being tended to and you're not just leaving it up on the shelf. And you know, to do that, you have to be willing to hurt and to process, but doing whatever your grief time needs to look like, but allowing you to do that on a regular basis.

Now, I love the idea of scheduling it in right or holding space for it, because human nature, we tend to avoid things that are uncomfortable. Like you said, it's going to those places that hurt. And if I have the choice of two different activities and one is going to hurt and one isn't going to hurt, probably gonna choose the one that isn't gonna hurt. And so this idea of just like, really saying, like, nope, like, I'm committed to this part of the process of my journey, and I'm gonna hold space and it's gonna look different for everyone, like you said. But, you know, that's so powerful. It's like you have to show up for your grief, in a sense, to get through it.

Absolutely. And not only is it gonna look different for every person, but for each individual, maybe each grief session will look different. You know, maybe one day you need to just ugly cry, and that's okay. And maybe, you know, a different day it'll be journaling. Maybe a different day it's going and exercising. Maybe, you know, a different day, it's putting together a memory project of some kind. It can look a wide variety of ways, you know, even week to week.

Right, right, absolutely. And it's true. It's like that authentic part of our life journeys and the authentic part of our grief journeys.

Yes, absolutely. And the third piece of coping advice is something that you hear a lot nowadays, which is self care, but I like to change that into self parenting because, you know, sometimes self care gets touted as this way of pampering yourself or, you know, it has to look like a spa day or buying something or eating comfort food or something that might not really be so healthy for you in the end. Whereas self parenting refers to really identifying what's actually going to help you, not just today, but yourself five years from now, and focusing on rooting out the things that are not helpful, really diving into the things that are helpful. And another reason I like to call it self parenting is that physically, when you're grieving, it's important to treat yourself like you're a toddler. Mm. And to really make sure you get good sleep, as good as possible, to make sure you're eating fairly healthy, to make sure that you are getting some time outside in nature, some exercise, that kind of thing. And then emotionally, self parenting looks a lot like being real with yourself, not lying to yourself about what's healthy, not lying to yourself about, you know, I'm choosing comfort right now over what I should be doing kind of thing. And also being really gentle with yourself and patient. Because the grief journey has lots of ups and downs. And like anything in life, it's not all at once. You're not going to immediately get to the. To the less difficult part.

It's so true. It's so powerful. And you're right. That, you know, billion dollar companies teach you that you have to spend X or do X to be caring for yourself. And a lot of those things actually go against self care. And I'm so glad you brought that up to kind of tease out that caring for yourself is in the sense of parenting. Right. And when we're parenting, we're not just, you know, giving candy or ice cream or doing all the things that make us feel good in the moment. We're doing the things that actually care for ourselves and our, you know, our functioning.

Absolutely.

I say it all the time. I mean, it started so much in our work together, and I'm so grateful. But what I learned in grief is really just, you know, what we need to apply to life. Right. You just said there in terms of like being, you know, allowing yourself to accept help. Right. Knowing the places where you're gonna be able to get help. And these things can apply to anything that we're navigating. I just think you used this visual one time that really resonated with me. Like it's a griefful demagnifying glass to all these other things. And, and so though I learned them through grief and then we're speaking about them through grief, and it is, it's like a magnifying glass. It's like life, you know, the intensity that we can experience in lifetimes a million when we're talking about grief. It also is really applicable in our day to day happenings.

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, really being in touch with yourself and having reflection, self reflection time, even if you're not grieving, that can be very useful.

Absolutely. So those three tips for somebody managing grief, those top tips, and you have so many and other gems people can pull out from our last episode, but identifying supports in our lives and accepting the support. And then number two, planning out grief time so creating space for our grief. And then number three, understanding that self care is more like self parenting and really looking out for our best interest rather than these fancy things or these things that just feel really good in the moment. Holy cow. That was a lot of value, a lot of learning, and so much support for anyone experiencing grief at any level. Right. Grief isn't just loss of life. Right. Grief can be grieving a future that you envisioned. It could be grieving a relationship, it could be moving, it could be changing your identity. Any major loss can evoke this energy of grief. And Kendra is just like, she's a grief Matt miracle worker. I am so grateful that the universe led me to her, and I'm so glad that she's able to share her knowledge with you. And she has so much to share that she is coming back for a second episode. She will be back. And we are going to talk specifically about the top lessons I learned from her, the top things she wants people to know, and tangible steps that somebody in grief can take, as well as tangible steps that somebody supporting others in grief can take. So we are just going to build on all this amazing value that she offered. I don't know about you, but I am certainly excited for that.