47: Let Go Of Guilt - An Interview with Lisa Price

Hello, friends, and welcome to Grief Guts and Green Smoothies. I am your host, Melissa Dugalecki, and I am so excited to be here with you all to chat about ways in which we can all get through different adversities, challenges and loss and how getting outside of our comfort zone and maybe having a green smoothie or two can help us do so. We will cover different topics ranging from interviews to recipes, to sharing my own stories of my grief journey and the loss of my daughter, Layden. And I'm honored to be able to share her light in hopes of helping you spread yours. Now let's dive in. Hey, everybody. I am so excited to welcome to the podcast today somebody who really aligns with that theme. I talk about a lot of the universe, connecting you to the people you're meant to be connected with. And thanks to social media, I was connected with Lisa Price, who is on here today. She is the founder of her company Better Not Bitter. And she helps bereaved moms to trim transition in their grief journey and again, not to get over it, quote unquote, but supports them in moving through in ways that take this energy of grief and channel it into growth, into learning, into understanding, and along the way making space for compassion, for anger, for support, frustration, community. All of these many and very real emotions and energies that surround grief. So if you are in your own grief journey, if you are a bereaved mom, if you are a bereaved parent, or if you are supporting somebody in their grief journey, there is so much value packed into this episode for you. So let's welcome Lisa. All right, Lisa, welcome to Grief Guts and Green Smoothies.

Thank you so much, Mel. This is like an absolute honor to be here.

We are so excited to have you here. And as you know, as somebody who has listened to the podcast, we start every episode with two kind of warm up and very important questions. So first things first, what is your favorite taco?

This is a hard one because I love tacos, mainly like chips and salsa and guac. But I would say my favorite taco is like a portobello mushroom with like sliced thin radishes with pickled red onions.

Well, that is really specific. I love that. And then the title of my podcast, Grief Guts and Green Smoothies, can take some people aback. It's a little bit unique. Not as unique probably to you, but what does that title mean to you?

Well, I would say obviously grief is such a hard, challenging topic, so it takes guts to address it, to bring it to the forefront of the world and to work through It. And I would say the green smoothie part, it's kind of two parts for me. You know, the green. To me, green always reminds me of, like, renewal, rediscovery, fresh, you know, almost born again kind of. And then smoothies, obviously, you can take it for its actual meaning, but also, I think doing the work of grief with those guts leads to a smoother journey when you do that gutsy work. So.

It'S really taking green smoothies at this whole other level beyond just, like, food consumption.

Right. And of course, I feel like that leads to health, you know, so both the smoothie and both going through the work of grief work.

Yeah, I love. And it is. It's so true. It is really about going through the work whether we want to or not.

Right, Right, Absolutely.

Yeah. And so, you know, our stories, our journeys really aligned, obviously, in a way that we would never have invited or welcome. I always say we end up in this club that we never wanted to be in. But you and I are both in that quote, unquote, bereave moms, you know, circle and network. And I'm so inspired by your grief journey, and we just love for you to share about, you know, you, your daughter Ari, your whole family, and just let people know about your journey and where you've been.

All right, well, my journey, our journey starts in 2016, when I was pregnant with our second child. I was 37, so advanced maternal age. And my doctor had suggested to get the standard advanced maternal age screening test, just for peace of mind, quote, unquote. That first test came back for markers of a chromosomal disorder, but it had an 80% chance of being a false positive. So we were banking on that 20% and actually quite confident that that's what it was. It was just a false positive. I even sat kind of, I want to say naively or kind of cocky in the genetic counselor's office as she went over what it all could mean. And I was like, yeah, no, that's not our case. Ours is definitely this false positive. So I was confident on that. But then after further screening and doing a chorionic villus sampling, it was confirmed around, I would say, I think I was around 14 weeks, that Ari had trisomy 13, a chromosomal disorder. So they say that that is not compatible with life. So, of course, we were given the choice to terminate or to continue to carry, and without a doubt chose to continue to carry. So from there, you know, roller coaster of emotions and chaos, not knowing if today would be the day that we go to the appointment, and her heartbeat's not there. You know, every appointment brought anxiety and nerves like I've never felt before. There was more appointments than normal since I was high risk, too. Teams of doctor doctors, specialists, social workers, counselors, you know, all telling us the probabilities of her life expectancy, you know, if she in fact survived labor and delivery even, because that wasn't even, you know, a promise. So to start making funeral arrangements and memorial, you know, settings, and yet praying for a miracle and then doubting our faith because we had to think of these memorial arrangements. So, you know, it's just so overwhelming and so much thrown into our world all at once. Plus, my sister's wedding was scheduled around the time of Ari's due date. And as we were getting closer, you know, it was getting closer to her due date, and she was thriving inside me. She was thriving. Little fighter. And it was, you know, getting closer to the wedding. My. My doctor said, well, why don't we, why don't we induce so that you have this sad event before, this happy event? And my jaw kind of just hung because I'm like, how, like you're already doubting her, right? But then we went for a second opinion.

Then that mama bear kicks in.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, big time.

It already kicked in for you? Yeah, yeah.

So then we chose to get a second opinion. And in fact, they said, you know, there's nothing to change the fact that she has trisomy 13. So even if she did survive labor and delivery and thrived, you know, for a few weeks to be able to have any sort of heart surgery or kidney or stomach, I mean, there's so many kind of issues that it didn't change the fact that her brain would not be able to tell her organs what they needed to do. So survival was very slim. So it was chaos. But through it all, I, you know, I. I felt like I was growing courage wise, not necessarily for myself, but for Ari, for my husband Brandon, for my son Chase, and just continued to carry and continue to have hope. So she was born in April, actually, on the dates that we originally were going to induce. She actually ended up showing up. So, yeah, so she was born on April 13th and survived labor and delivery. And we had 9 hours and 51 minutes of time with her. We even got her home for a half hour because the whole medical team knew that we had that goal for her, that she would make it home here. And she survived about a half hour and then passed away on my left arm in our family home. So since Then, of course, grief just takes you by surprise. But it's really opened my eyes to kind of reconnecting with myself and actually figuring out my identity. Because prior, I would say I was not living my life to the fullest, actually. I know I wasn't. I was a people pleaser since I was very little and I was a dancer. And growing up in that dance world, you know, you're trying to please everyone. You're trying to look the certain part, you're trying to do whatever it takes. And so I wasn't really me, you know? And after losing Ari, I feel like that's the journey I've been on, is rediscovering myself and really looking internal instead of for external things to, you know, bring me solace or appease me. I'm definitely looking inward. And, you know, I just feel our family has obviously had some rocky points, but it's also definitely made us a tighter knit family. My husband and I communicate a lot more than we did before. And I would say that's probably the hardest part, actually, is watching my husband and my son miss her. You know, besides the obvious loss of Ari herself in the physical sense, it's just watching. Watching kind of life going forward, but still watching them and witnessing them missing her so much.

So they're resilient and you are, too. And I just think.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. I truly have goosebumps and that lump in my throat, you know, just knowing. It's like, for me, Layden was in my right arm. And as you said that, I actually looked down and I felt my left arm, though. Like, I just felt that, like, for you. And it's. It's amazing how we can feel the energy of grief in the physical. Right. And in the emotion.

Oh, for sure.

And so, you know, moving forward from there or not, like, how was it, you know, that you decided to pick yourself back up? Like, how was it with, you know, your family? I mean, being in that place of, holy cow, we thought this was, you know, a false positive test to Ari fighting. And I'm sure, you know, her entire fight brought a lot of hope. And even in those moments, like, I remember for me, like, when Layden took those last breaths, like, I still thought that she was gonna live. Like, it. It didn't hit me. And so I don't know what that was like for you in terms of, like, was there still that hope in those moments? And if so, like, what did that look like?

I would. I would definitely say, like, her last, because she did have Sleep apnea episodes, you know, so she would stop breathing, but then she would come back. But in that. That final one, I knew, like, as a mom, I knew, you know, and, yeah, it was shock, denial. Like, my husband scooped her up out of my arms. There was a hospice team that actually was up, you know, right up the stairs, and my husband was talking to them, and he ran down the stairs, or ran up the stairs, I should say, and grabbed her. And just from that moment, it was numbness, but yet still had to make phone calls and tell my mom to come over here, and my dad with our son, who was at their house, so that he could see her again and so that family could say goodbye. So just all very surreal. Almost, you know, like you're floating above your body kind of, and almost observing it from. From somewhere else. So, yeah, I would say from that point on, it was one foot in front of the other and then sometimes stumbling backwards, just challenge. Right. Not really knowing, what does this do to our family dynamic?

Yeah.

Is our marriage gonna survive this? How is Chase gonna process this? He was four and a half at the time, so just a lot of unknowns, right?

So many unknowns. So.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, you shared how, you know, you've turned so many of these unknowns and this energy, like, this pain into so much growth. But how did you navigate those unknowns? Like, what was it that got you through each day? I feel like so many people in grief, whether bereaved mom, a bereaved dad, or just, you know, maybe someone who's lost their mother or their father or their sibling or a friend, they are struggling, like, feel like they're drowning and suffocating in the unknowns. And what would you say to them? Like, what helped you or what would you advise to those people Just feeling like these unknowns are too much.

I guess I would say you kind of have to just dig internally, really deep down and understand yourself. Just being aware that sitting in that place of challenge is difficult at this moment. And sitting in that place of raw emotion while difficult at the moment when you work through it, when you. When you try to take that next better step or choose that next better feeling, even from going, like, just complete bitterness, to then maybe anger is a step up. Right? So just those little baby steps, because then you're just continuing to find that. That light. Right. And rebuild. And it can be beautiful when you rebuild. I know you can't see it in the moment because it's so hard.

Yeah. No, I love that concept. It's actually One I've been teaching a lot lately. I swear, it's just the way, like, what you say and what I teach, like, it's just, they just vibe. But this concept of reach higher, like, if you can't reach all the way up for joy, like, just reach a little bit higher. And even, you know, anger is higher than shame. Right, right. And even frustration is higher than anger. And it's just like I envision this, like, what was that that you did in gym class? Like, the rope that you just called my gym teachers, if they're listening, hey, coaches. How does she not remember that? But no, I just envision this idea of just like struggling and just reaching like a little bit higher. And you articulated that so beautifully. Thank you.

Yeah.

And one of the things that, I mean, you've talked about and you shared and we'll go further into is, you know, what, how you feel like you were living before Ari, and how what, you know, living means to you now. But getting to that point, I felt a lot of guilt. And I have a similar experience that I feel like Laden has opened my eyes up to. Living a completely different way. I wouldn't have discovered before brought whole new meaning, but there was a lot of guilt that for me, brought resistance into even embracing all the lessons that Layden was teaching. Like, how did I not know these before?

Right.

How was I not living like this before? Did Leighton have to lose her life before? And.

Yeah.

Is there, you know, something that you've experienced similar to that or for anybody who might, you know, feel the weight of that guilt of learning from or moving forward in our grief journey. Like, what do you have to say about that and how have you experienced that?

Well, I think guilt comes, you know, from that voice within that we, that story that we kind of retell ourselves of, of not being able to do more for them, to save them. Because that's our job as a parent. Right. And however that looks or whatever that looks like. But then the guilt of moving forward, I think is also kind of a self imposed notion or even a giving into, like, social acceptability of like, the time limit that the world kind of tends to put on our grief in general or on certain feelings that we have in which we, you know, feel pressured to move forward when we're. We're not ready. Maybe even the feeling of guilt comes from the time that grows between our loss and the present and, you know, the future or the further away we feel a sense of like, almost like we're forgetting them, even though we are not. And we won't ever. And we don't. It's just that that sense of real time just kind of spreading between the then and the present. And I mean, I just. I think to some degree guilt is valid, obviously, as being a parent and you're supposed to protect them, but then learning to process it and releasing it. You know, I even wrote in a journal entry to my daughter that I. I apologized in this journal entry. I wrote to her and I said, you know, please don't think I'm forgetting about you, but I have to move my energy towards Chase and my husband, you know, Chase, my son, who I'm concerned about him and his growth and how he's going to process all of this. And if I just keep focusing on the actual physical loss of her, that I'm not going to be able to help myself. And therefore, then I'm not going to be able to help my husband and my son. You know, and I feel like I. I started to feel my guilt. Guilt almost shifted to, you know, I would feel even more guilty if I didn't choose to live better or choose better, you know, to not honor her life by living mine. And have I messed up and have I failed? Yeah, certainly. You know, but I'm learning, right? And I'm. I'm learning from her story and from her. Her story that ended too soon. And just like you said. Yeah. I kind of look at it almost like if she was sent here, if I was chosen as her mother, as she chose me, I'm not going to waste this opportunity to grow. I'm not going to waste this opportunity to live purposefully, you know?

Yeah. I think, you know, that's something that resonates so deeply with me. It's so powerful. Thank you for sharing. And of course, guilt, it. It's a useless emotion, but it's a real emotion. And like you said, I think what I found really not even helpful because, gosh, it doesn't feel helpful. It just feels like maybe a little perspective building was looking at, well, what choices do I have?

Right.

I did. Sure. And you did, too. We had the choice of just standing in that place of pain, and I don't think anyone would blame us. Or we had the choice of saying, okay, if, you know, Laden chose me, if Ari chose you, like, if we were chosen for them to come in this experience, in this version of, you know, their soul, then how can we carry that light and how can we create meaning? And, you know, it's such a powerful. And it's an individual choice. Right? It is creating meaning. I mean, Laden's father and I grieve very differently. And what creating meaning means to both of us is not right or wrong. Right. I think it's just each person picking what works for them. And you've alluded to that, too. And what. The way in which that you create meaning can be really different from your husband or from other people that you work with.

Right? Absolutely. I would say, you know, physical movement for that was something that actually brought my husband and I closer together because I. We both, you know, worked out. I'm a dance teacher, so movement has always been a part of our lives, but it was definitely a place that we found especially for my husband to open up. You know, we would be working out, and all of a sudden I would just say, how's your day going? And he would then say, I'm thinking of Ari, or, it's been rough. And typically, he doesn't open up like that. Right. So I think, you know, men in general, I don't want to generalize, but a lot of times it's the physical that they. They need, and that's how they get their feelings out. Where we as women maybe are more intuitive or, you know, we like to journal. Some of us, we like to talk to our girlfriends, you know, get it off of our chest. We like that comfort. So I just thinking, finding and recognizing where he needed to be in order to process, I could meet him there, and that definitely helped our relationship just strengthen.

Yeah, I agree. I think that whether it's, you know, a significant other, a marriage, a friendship, a parent, a sibling, like any relationship actually can strengthen in grief. And, you know, I'll never forget, one of the first things I learned was that, you know, while the percentages are higher of relationships failing after the loss of a child, you know, my grief coach, Kendra, who was on here earlier, said it's not actually from the loss of the child. It's of the expectations of the other person to grieve like you do.

Right.

And when you can forge and strengthen your relationship by honoring our unique ways of grieving, then you actually can, like, you can, as you said, strengthen and become more compassionate and caring, whether it's in your romantic relationships or, like I said, your friendships, colleagues even. But just recognizing that we all process this energy of grief in our own authentic ways. But something I don't think can be forgotten and something I want, you know, that you do such a beautiful job of, I want you to share more of the ways in which you support is that it is Important to process.

Absolutely.

We can't deny it.

My. I guess I would say right after my loss, I felt a sense of, like, a lack, I guess, of resources that went internal. Right. There was a lot of support groups out there, whether it was, you know, something that I would go to or just on social media and Facebook, a lot of, you know, retelling stories. And I think there's so much power in sharing stories and speaking of our children. But everything seemed to just be rehashing and not forward progress or like a hope or a continuation. And I found myself, like, especially in the online space, if I was in one of those groups and I just kept reading stories, there was no facilitator to then ask, well, what are you doing now? Or how are you processing? Or what is your coping mechanism? So I just felt very, like, almost. It was bringing me almost to a darker place and like, almost down a rabbit hole.

Yeah.

And so I started to not go on those anymore, and I made that choice for myself and I started to, like, Google things. Yeah. And got so overwhelmed because, you know, you would Google things and it says five stages of grief, seven stages of grief. And you're like, I'm feeling way more. Am I crazy? Right. No. And so just felt very overwhelmed. So I even had to stop that. And I just needed to just be with myself and really start to be mindful of what decisions I wanted to make in order to cultivate good feelings within me instead of seeking outside external things to make me feel good. Right. And I don't know what's best for other people. Obviously, I don't claim to know, but I do know looking within is kind of where the answer lies. Right. Within your spirit, within what is ingrained in you. That's where the answer lies.

Because that's the only thing that's going to be with us throughout the rest of our lives.

Absolutely. Right.

So if we're dependent on other things for us to feel good, we are not in control. Like, we've got to figure out ways to turn internally.

Right.

Yes. And what I love and admire so much about you and the work that you do is you basically identified a problem and created a solution.

Right.

And your solution, much like grief, it's not one size fits all. But you have this beautiful opportunity and space for bereaved moms, and I'd love for you to talk more about this exciting resource and program and how other people can get involved and really benefit and grow through the work that you do.

Well, thank you. Well, I created an online course Because I recognized the lack of resources, tools, supports, that growth, and I recognize that lack. And also that a lot of grieving, a lot of grieving people have a hard time leaving their house. Right. So to sit in a support group to get yourself ready to take a shower can be very overwhelming. And I, knowing myself and what I felt was lacking and then kind of discovering that other women felt the same, I thought of creating an online course that was able to be done at your own pace, in the comfort of your own home, but yet still connect with community that are kind of like minded. So wanting to see progress in their grief, wanting to, you know, choose that next better step no matter how small it is. I created a 13 week online course. It's called the 413 Movement Method. And in fact, I just started a new group the other day of nine beautiful bereaved moms that they take this online course and we take it week by week, one grief concept at a time, just kind of focusing on how to navigate it better. And you know, once you, once you get to know something better, you're, you're better able to manage it with more, more purpose and, and more possibility. So we take one grief concept 13 weeks in a row and they have a workbook, some, some tangible steps that they take to work through each concept. And we get on a group, group call and just kind of talk about what we learned, maybe what we're hung up on, some of the challenges or some of the progress that we're making so that we feel supported in this community. And then besides the 13 grief or the 13 grief concepts, I do a lot of overall wellness just because I believe mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, all those dimensions of wellness work together and they kind of knit or weave together to have better chance of sustaining that progress. So I have yoga videos in there, I have stretching videos, I do some breath work audio files. There's even like a, you know, workout log. I did a partner workout with my husband, like a HIIT workout. We talk about gut health and just how if you try to eat properly or eat better whole foods, your, your gut doesn't have to take up so much of that energy that you need to reserve for other things. Yeah, we really go into mindfulness, journaling and just becoming more aware of internal feelings and really honoring and acknowledging what you personally need on your journey.

I love that. And I think what's so great about what you've created is it's got that balance, it's got that I'm giving you something, but it's not overwhelming.

Right.

There's something that you can reach for and hope for and have, like, something that feels purposeful, but there's not pressure. It's not suffocating. It's a move at your own pace. And, you know, really access, whether it's the physical or the emotional or, you know, the digestible, like all these aspects of energy. Right. And what we take in and what we put out. And just essentially, you've built a toolbox for people to. For, you know, women, for bereaved moms to pick up the tools that they need, and you're just kind of there directing them along the way. And I think it's absolutely amazing.

Thank you so much.

Yeah. So what advice do you have? As, you know, anybody listening, whether they are a bereaved mom, whether they've never experienced grief, but maybe are just feeling a little bit overwhelmed in life, or maybe somebody who's experiencing grief from 10 years ago that's popping up, or maybe a more recent grief that is the loss of somebody that wasn't as close to them, but they're still really feeling that. Like, what advice do you have for anyone impacted by these energies associated with grief?

Well, I think you have to honor them, obviously. You have to acknowledge them, almost name them out loud. I think that helps. And processing them. So reaching out, if you're not understanding how you can process these certain energies or reach to the, you know, higher vibrations, you're not alone in this. And I don't think alone is a way to do this journey in life, whether it's grief or just life in general. I just think alone is not a way. We're built to be together. We're built to share.

I love that because grief is so isolating.

It is. It is.

It can be. Right?

Right. Yes, exactly what you just said. But I also think, you know, grief is a gift, and don't take this the wrong way, but honoring our grief is a gift. It's. It's a connection to our loved ones after they pass. And the root of our grief is love. Right. Our grief exists because love did first, and that's why we have it.

That's so beautiful, and it is true. And it might be an unwelcome gift, and we might not always want to open or share that gift, but as we're ready, the most important thing is processing, taking action. So, you know, if you're listening, really encourage you to, you know, to digest and just process that advice of finding ways to move forward, finding ways to reach higher, finding ways to connect with other people and leaning on those supports because you're not alone. It's not a welcomed experience, but it is one that when we kind of surrender to a lot of aspects of it, we can strengthen through many other ways. Lisa, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you? Where can they connect?

I'm on Instagram, and my handle is Better Not Bitter mom and on Facebook as well. It's Better not Better Mom. I have a, you know, a business page, but then I also have a private support group, so you can always search for me in the groups through Better Not Bitter Mom.

So if any bereaved mom wants to join your Facebook group, they can search for that in Facebook. Better Not Fitter Mom. And then just maybe reach out, let them know that they heard you here and they can take advantage of all those resources and support that you've created in that community.

Yep. And I even have resources on my website, which is www.betternotbittermom.com.

Yeah, I encourage anybody listening to just check those out. Whether you're a bereaved mom or experiencing grief in a different way, they will absolutely support you in your journey. So, Lisa, thank you so much for being here.

Oh, Mel, I appreciate this so much. It's totally an honor and pleasure. And, you know, our daughters brought us together for a reason, so I'm so, so blessed to know you.

They really did. So let's end with a little thought and hug for Leiden and Ari.

Yes. They're probably upstairs playing. Right?

All right, Lisa, we'll talk to you soon.

All right, thanks, Mel.

Bye.

Bye.