98: Toxic Positivity and How The Body Stores Trauma with Michelle Quiroga

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Welcome to Grief and Guts. I'm your host, Melissa Dugulecki. It is my honor and privilege to serve you by sharing stories, tools, interviews, and strategies that will help you transition from what do I do now? How do I get through this? Those feelings of overwhelm and uncertainty to truly standing in your power. From my grief journey in losing my daughter laden in 2014 that I learned, practiced, was exposed to all these tools, but they are not grief specific. In fact, they apply universally to all of our unique situations. You've already done the hard part by showing up, by opening up to something new. So without any further ado, let's get to the good stuff that's going to help you in your journey. Let's dive in. All right, everybody, welcome back to Grief and Guts. I am your host, Melissa, and I am so beyond excited to introduce you to a really special and unique guest today. As you know, I have found my journey has taken me to Tulum, and one of the most beautiful things here has been meeting just some incredible people. And I think, you know, the universe, we talk about this a lot. The universe aligns certain people on our paths at different times or our own energy connects with other people's energy. Right? That's why I always tell you guys, like, we got to do our energy work and get ourself in check so we can align with the right people. And I was so fortunate that through my membership at a local fitness studio, I met Michelle. And she is just an amazing, intelligent, and impactful human that I cannot wait to introduce you to. We are going to talk about toxic positivity. We're going to talk about how trauma stores in the body, and we're really going to talk about no matter what stage in grief you're in, how you can take action to really release these experiences from you so that you can feel your best. So without any further ado, let's dive in. All right, Michelle, welcome so much to Grief and Guts.

Hi. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me.

So glad to have you here. So everybody tuning in, you haven't had the opportunity to meet Michelle Pieroga. So, Michelle, I'm just. I'm so glad of how we met and how we've been able to get to know each other more and learning more about your work, because it's really beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. So, yeah, it was really lucky that we met. I'm really, really amazed by the work that you're doing as well and how vulnerable you are with your experience and with your knowledge and how Everything's coming together. So, yeah, I couldn't pass on the invitation of being here with you. So. I am a licensed professional counselor, unl, licensed in Texas and New Jersey. And I've been practicing for about seven years now. My work began with adults and children and families, usually immigrant families that were in disadvantaged situations, lower socioeconomic status. And I was doing mostly home visiting because of certain situations, especially with the healthcare system in the US and insurance world and policies over there. I got a bit burned out, to be honest. And so I left the US back in 2018, I started traveling. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew what counseling and psychology and the human mind is part of my mission here in this life for sure. But I knew what I was doing was. Was coming kind of like to a dead end, and I needed to kind of shift gears, so I started traveling. I lived in Bali for a few months, kind of like connecting to different parts of me. I feel like I've been a person who believes in science, believes in facts in a way, but at the same time, there's a part of me that believes that there is something more than we're allowed to believe in certain professions. I started going deeper into my yoga practice, going deeper into meditation, Reiki. And so I decided I needed to stay away from the US For a while. And so that's when I decided to move back to Mexico. I was born and raised here in Mexico, but then moved to the US for school. So I decided to come back to beautiful Tulum and started my private practice here. And here I'm able to see clients from all over the world. And I shifted my counseling work to a more somatic approach. What this means is I place a lot of emphasis on how emotions, memories, trauma is stored in our bodies and how to release it, how to become aware of it, how to tap into it, how to respect it, honor it, and when we're ready to release it.

So beautiful. You hit on a couple things there that, you know, I just want to point out for everyone listening, like, just talking about this balance of, you know, I often refer to it as the masculine and feminine energies or, you know, signs and spirituality. But what you're. What you're talking about is, like, there is a science to, you know, what. How we work and how our brains. But there's also, you know, a lot of outside of the box, the typical box thinking and unique journeys. And I think that comes into grief, you know, in many different ways. Of course, it's not something that, you know, a textbook is going to apply to every single person. There's an art to it, too. And I love how you broadened your experiences through travel and through studies and through, you know, understanding how the body stores everything to really blend the two energies together.

Of course, of course. I think it's only been until the, I don't know, last 10 to 15 years that science has started to, to acknowledge how, you know, or to be able to prove how there is a mind body connection, you know, to, to people just like, you know, that were in school 20, 30, 40 years ago. There is kind of like, oh, well, how. What does it mean that a headache can be because I'm stressed out? Like, what does that have to do with, you know, simple things like that that maybe to us now is almost like obvious, or we just, you know, assume it. But I think science has just recently started to catch up with it. And yeah, of course, definitely for, for grief or any type of traumatic experience. Science is just starting to, to understand how it is that, that it's stored in the body. So I think it's. It's a wonderful time.

I mean, I know for me, like, you know, growing up before, I thought differently or knew differently or studied differently, it's like, oh, you have a headache? Take a Tylenol or an Advil. Right?

Definitely, yeah.

Versus like, and personally, I haven't. And this isn't to impose my choices on anybody.

Right.

Everyone has to make their own. But personally, like, I used to carry Advil and Tums and, and I was taking prescription medications and I haven't taken pill in six years, you know.

Wow.

Yeah. Right. And so now to what your point is, if I have a headache, I'm like, oh, I wonder what's going on with me. Either am I physically dehydrated, am I stimulated, or is this thing that I'm storing emotionally in my body and those are the first things I ask versus I used to just reach for what pill do I need?

Right, of course, of course. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. That kind of situation where you would go to a doctor and then maybe the doctor would say, like, oh, well, you need to lower your stress levels. You know, that's why your high blood pressure is so high. And then, you know, clients come to me like, well, what does that mean? How do I, how do I lower my high blood pressure? Like, what is, how are those two related? Like, doctors are starting to understand there is a link, but I feel like we don't really have the tools readily available to everybody to explain exactly how that is, how do we do that? You know, we do have the power to self heal, but it's something that, you know, we're not taught in school.

No, and I love that you said tools because that was the exact word that came to my mind. It's like they're identifying the problem but not giving people the tools.

Yeah, exactly.

And you know, one of the things that you and I first connected on when I like, I gotta get you on this podcast, I want to share your experiences with this community, was the concept of toxic positivity. You know, that applies in grief and beyond grief. And a lot of people who listen to this podcast, maybe not navigating a grief journey, that's fine. Because what I teach is that grief is just like a magnifying glass on things that we all experience every day. Right. You take certain energies and you put them on steroids, kind of, and that's like grief does. But this stuff applies. So toxic positivity is something I experience in grief, but I see it on a day to day basis with people in all aspects of life. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on it and maybe just we can break it down a little bit for the listeners.

Of course. Of course. So I think the specific post that you saw was very general on toxic positivity about how if you're having a bad day, you know, or if you're having certain moods, if you're angry or if you're being pessimistic about whatever reason, people might just say like, well, you just need to smell, you just need to meditate more, you just need to think more positive. You just need to kind of like get over it. Because there is this, this idea unfortunately in our society that certain feelings are bad or undesirable or we need to stay away from those because we don't want them. And when you have them, we don't want to be around you and it's not fun. And so we just want to be running away from them. And so there is this almost like pressure almost from, from social media as well, of like just always looking happy and always looking like you have your things together. And it's always, you know, it's, it's always sunny. And that unfortunately has all these, you know, effects, of course, on us that we're humans and we need to feel anger, we need to feel anxiety. It's part of being a human. It's, it's how evolution has brought us where we are. You know, if we didn't experience anxiety, how could we run away from Mammoths chasing us or from a truck behind us that tanky, you know, like, they're necessary human emotions. And I think that's something that we don't allow ourselves to accept. You know, I have a lot of clients coming, like, I. I want to get rid of anxiety. Like, well, you can't. You can't get rid of anxiety, but you can learn to identify and manage it in a different way. You can learn to identify as. As what it is. An emotion that comes and goes if you allow it, that you don't necessarily have to identify with it. But, no, anxiety is not gonna leave. It's just going to be able to identify it and cope with it better. So, yeah, I think that's. That's. In a nutshell, what I believe is toxic positivity and how it's. It's. It could be quite damaging.

I'm so glad you said that. And those who have been listening with me for a while or who have worked with me, one of the very first things I give them. I'll just share this with you, Michelle. I call it the Bible. And it's like there are vibrations and energies and experiences that might have different frequencies, higher or lower, but I tell them to eliminate the word good or bad. Stop labeling them as good or bad. Like, I don't agree with good vibes only. Right, of course. Good vibes only. And I'm like, that's not possible. And also, like, even in my own grief and my own brokenness, like, there was a beauty in sacredness.

Absolutely right. Absolutely. Yes.

And so I hope, you know, for those of you listening, that what Michelle and I can help do here is to alleviate the pressure or the shame or the feeling of what's wrong with me. If you're not feeling, quote, unquote, good vibes or, you know, good emotions, because, you know, with her training and, you know, and her experiences and we'll get more into the technical on that, and in my own work, in my own experiences, like, that's really damaging, as you said. It's very damaging because now not only are you struggling, but now we're shaming a struggle. And he's saying, well, what's wrong with me? Why can't I. I'm thinking positive, I'm meditating, I'm doing all this, and I feel pain. And then they think something's wrong with them. And now shame, I think, is one of the heaviest energies.

Yes.

And put shame on top of anxiety or loss or trauma or pain or fear. And, like, that's tough.

Yeah. I agree with you. I think shame is a really heavy energy and also feeling of victimhood, you know, that's also a trap. And I think exactly what. How you were saying, sometimes we're like, well, I'm doing all these things. Why is this still happening to me? You know, that language happening to me. So you're passive about. About, like just things are coming to you. You know, you're a victim of something. Instead of just, you know, coming from this different place, of not seeing it as something bad and just seem like, okay, what. What is going on? What am I shielding myself from? And a good, you know, a type of analogy that I like to. To give sometimes is when we're running away from certain feelings or certain emotions or memories. It's kind of like we're putting all of that into, like, a closet and we close the door, you know, and it's like, okay, I'm just gonna be positive. I'm just gonna smile. I'm just gonna go ahead and dance, and it's out of sight, out of mind kind of thing. The thing is, no, they're just. They're just crammed together in one place. So that door sometimes just starts to open by itself. And so you're having a good day, nothing's really happening. All of a sudden you have this emotional breakdown and. Or you have this rage or you have this really big frustrations, like, that is like, why is this happening to me? Nothing. You know, so there is not really, I guess, responsibility, you know, to. Okay, these feelings are there, they are mine. And I'm not. I'm not seeing that. I'm not dealing with them for whatever reason, toxic positivity or it's just too much or whatever it might be. And so I guess it's that cycle that keeps us stuck there. And it can be that those feelings can be in that closet for a month, for a year, for 10 years, for 20 years, 30 years, for a lifetime. But the truth is they come out. They do come out. And not only do they come out, but they leak to other people around you, even when you're not noticing. So that's. That's the frustrating part to a lot of us, that it's coming into other areas of our lives. Then we feel like we have no control over it. But it's perhaps because we're coming from that mindset that things are happening to me. I have no control over it. And it's not until we would take responsibility for that things start to shift. They start to change.

One of my favorite Topics to coach on is. And you're bringing me back to, like, my heavier mindset, one on one coaching days. But one of my favorite things to coach on is the topic of personal responsibility. And to your point, if we don't take personal responsibility and, like, own our energy, own our emotions, do the work. I love how you said it leaks out because that's what happens. That's why, you know, I want to just encourage everyone listening. It sucks. Like, I'll acknowledge, like, it sucks if you lose somebody or you experience trauma and then you're like, now I have to do the work, right? Like, now I have to do the work. You know, like, literally when I lost Leiden, I was like, damn it, now I have to do the work. But, you know, we do. I. You know, I hate to say we do, and that's taking personal responsibility, but I think when we take personal responsibility, it's the most selfless thing, because sometimes there's this misconception, and I don't know how it. How you see it culturally. I'd be kind of curious to hear culturally between, like, you know, Mexico or the United States. But in the United States, I feel like culturally, people think doing the work or focusing on you is selfish. I think it's very selfless because to your point, then you're not leaking all of damage and your trauma onto other people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very similar to what happens here in Mexico, especially when we're talking about grief. You know, like, don't. Don't cry in front of the children, or don't let the children see you sad, or don't talk about this in front of them. You know, like, just don't do this in front of your. Whatever it might be, you know, kind of like protecting people around you from your grief or your feelings. So that gives the message that what you're feeling is not okay. It's not okay to feel sad after a month, a year or two years of experiencing trauma. You know, so, yeah, it's. It's. It's. I think it's. It's very similar in that way. That's why we need to have these. These type of conversations. And going back to that topic of responsibility and victimhood, you know, that in and of itself is, you know, feeling. Feeling sorry for yourself. So again, it's not that it's bad to feel sorry for yourself. You might need to, you know, curl up in your bed and just cry and say, like, oh, my God. Yes, it's a feeling as well. The problem is we hold on to any feeling. Self, pity, anger, frustration. Whenever we see that feeling and we attach to it, we identify with that feeling. We make it kind of like our permanent home. That is when things start to get stuck energetically, mentally, emotionally, in every way. Yeah, it's not that it's. You know, I'm feeling like a victim now. I don't need, you know, that's also kind of like falling into toxicity. But it's. It's. It's about recognizing it and say, okay, I feel. I feel like I want to feel sorry for myself today, and that's what I'm going to do. But tomorrow I'm going to try to focus on something different.

You know, I love that. The lack of permanency in anything. Right. There's a lack of permanency in any emotion. And letting these go through you. You know, one of. I always like to, like, offer kind of tools too, for people and I'll just share for me, one. You know, when my daughter died and we. We haven't had the chance to talk about it too much, but we will. But when I lost my daughter, Laden, they actually called her case a catastrophe. Like, she wasn't quote unquote, supposed to die. And of course, depending on what people believe spiritually, everyone's gonna have different opinions. Right. And that's not what this is about. But, you know, it was very tempting for me to go to that victim place. Why? And to place blame. And how could you? And I think the biggest thing that I learned that I just want to share with the listeners is that, you know, I had this moment of, like, wow, I wasn't entitled to anything. When we're in a place of victim, I think it's linked to entitlement. Like, we're where entitled. Not always, but like, we're entitled. And I realized, like, I was kind of feeling like, well, I was completely entitled to a healthy child and like, I'm worthy of one. I deserve one. I can want one. I can. I can want all of that. But the reality is, is, like, I'm not entitled to anything. And so it took me out of this place of like, something was taken from me to. I had been gifted something, you know, for a short period of time. Well, I still carry Leighton with me in my own way. So, you know, for my life. Is it the way in which I would have wanted? No, but this is the way in which it is. So can I choose to see the gift in it rather than be in that place of victimization? And it's not easy but on a less intense note, I'll just. I'll just share one more little story. Like, even when you know it. CrossFit. I hurt my knee recently, right?

Yeah.

It's very tempting to go into that place. And this is a light thing, right? This isn't as heavy as grief. I just injured my knee.

Okay.

No big deal. And, you know, but I couldn't run. And I love to run so much, like my therapy, and it's tempting to be like, oh, why did this happen? Poor me. But like, instead it's switching to, okay, what am I feeling entitled to?

Okay.

To just be able to run. Like, this has been a gift that I've been able to run. I probably for granted. So instead of feeling like I've lost something, I'm seeing the gift that I have had and then just, you know, being patient and going through the process, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you say it's something small, but it is a type of grief because you are losing something. You are losing the ability of doing something. And you know it, because we really enjoy exercising and we know the outlet that that is for us. So losing the ability physically not being able to do something. Yeah, I mean, a lot of feelings of frustration or even anger or. Yeah, victimhood can come into play. So, yeah, I mean, of course, in terms of, you know, the bigger scheme of things, because it's something small, but it's still. Yeah, it's still a type of break.

And I love. We're going to get into the ways in which. I'd love to have you educate the community on the ways in which we store trauma in our brain and our body. But just one follow up to that that you just inspired in me is when we lose something, I think this is very powerful for the listeners, is we don't necessarily lose the energy in which we were seeking or that we cultivated. So, for example, with Laden, it was like a lot of love, right? With my knee, it was my outlet, my meditation. And so one of the things I try and teach, and this is a harder concept, it's gonna be harder to get in a podcast. But even if it just maybe resonates with one person, I think it's worth sharing. Like, how can you look at that energy, identify that energy or that emotion, and find a different way to connect to it if the way you've connected to has been different? So for my knee, it was doing more strength training. It's been doing meditation. So I'm getting my meditation, I'm getting my Workout, my outlet, my sweat. But I just have to do it differently. My daughter, Layden, it's. How do I take all of that love that is harbored for her and give it to other people in my life or give it to those in need and still experience that feeling of giving love now? Either in my first choice way, no. But I think sometimes when we lose something, we amplify our loss because we forget or we can't see that there are other ways we can still connect to the energy and was there.

I don't know if that makes sense. Absolutely. It made sense to me. It made sense to me. I think it ties back to what we were talking about. Identifying what certain feelings or certain emotions, certain memories. And when we identify with that, it's. It's that holding on to it, it's that getting stuck. It's like, like you say, some people, some of us can have certain losses, certain grief, certain emotions. And it's like, well, it was, it was meant to for this person. It was meant for this project, it was meant for this situation. Now it's gone. So I'm just going to hold on to it. And then it starts turning into anger, it starts turning into resentment, it starts turning into other things that it's, it's, you know, if you peel the layers of that anger, there is a very beautiful emotion there, but covered in pain. So it's kind of like what our body does. You know, when we have a wound, what happens? Or we have a foreign object in our body, what happens then there, there's kind of like this tissue that starts surrounding it, kind of like to protect the body from it, you know, like if you have kind of like a splinter in your finger, for example, it starts kind of like your body starts bubbling up to kind of like extract it. So emotionally we have different types of body. We have our physical body, we have our emotional body, we have our energetic body. We have different types of bodies. So our physical body, it's. It's a representation of also what's going on inside of us. So storing emotions, storing, you know, a splinter, storing something inside our body, what's going to happen, it's going to start going bad. Maybe an infection, maybe something that is going to start hurting us. So it's the same with any emotions. Same with grief. If you start storing that very beautiful emotion of love or, you know, what, what you know, or expectations or hope, but you're not letting it out, then what's going to start happening? It's going to start trying to get out or be expelled. But if we keep stopping that, then it turns into pain.

I love that. And this is a perfect kind of segue into talking about how we store these things in our body, how we store trauma and emotion. And I think for the listeners, they can probably relate to, okay, if I have a splinter, I see. See how that bubbles up. I see how my body protects itself. But how can you help them understand how that parallels more deeper emotions or traumatic experiences?

It's been until very recently, like perhaps the last 10 to 15 years, that science has been starting to catch up with humanity. Some humanity has known for many years in terms of how there is a money, body, mind connection. I don't. I don't want to mention spirit because obviously science is not there yet, but, you know, at least with mind, body connection. So I wish there was kind of like a very specific way that I can tell you, like, this is exactly how it happens. But if it helps to have kind of like this, this analogy. So we have muscle memory, right? Muscle memory is when we develop certain strength, you know, because we're exercising and then we stop exercising, and then we come back, and then that muscle starts growing up faster because it remembers what it has to do, how it grows, right? So let's say, for example, we're in a car accident and our body obviously crunches, you know, kind of like closes off and tenses. And at the moment of the car accident, what happens after you come back and sit in a car and start driving or in the passenger seat? Your body's probably very likely gonna be tense and tighten up. Why? Because there is that muscle memory that there was something traumatic happening to you. We forget that our bodies are intelligent. We forget that while we are not our bodies, they are. It's kind of wisdom in physical form solidified in a way, so it responds. The stimulus. And these stimulus, of course, they can be emotional or they can be mental. So going back to the example of the car accident, there is that tension stored in your body. There is that trauma stored in your body. Now what happens when there is a loss or there's grief or, you know, someone. Someone that we really love passes away? What. What's happening to your body? Of course you're not really aware because, you know, the grief is so intense that you're not. You're not even aware of what's going on. But of course, your body is responding to it by why, like cortisol levels or, you know, like what a lot of different reactions that are going on inside of your body. They're, they're, they're reacting to it, trying to keep you alive, trying to keep you, like, okay, we need to get this girl whatever it is that she needs to do. She hasn't slept. She has me. Like, okay, what, how. How are we functioning here? And so as we're coming back to our bodies, as we're, you know, working through grief, this is stored in different areas now for every person is different. For some people, grief can be stored in their back. For some people, it can be stored in. And headaches. For some people, it can be stored in heart problems. For some people, it can be stored in many different ways. It's up to us to notice that we don't want to wait until we have to go to a doctor because we have this chronic pain or this chronic illness that is related to something that we've been storing there. And that takes me back to what you were talking about. How if we store this intense love, it restore this intense pain, wherever it is that it's holding into our body, it's going to start manifesting. And that is where practices like meditation, practices, like yoga practices, like any type of exercises are going to help us release that from our bodies. That muscle memory that was stored there after the car accident. You know, if we do a bit of yoga, we do a bit of rehab, if we do a bit of running, your muscles are slowly going to start easing out. If we pair that with the mental aspect of it of talking about the car accident, of talking about, okay, what happened? How are you feeling when you're sitting in the car? What are you linking it to? Now, in therapy, as I was talking to you before, there is this type of technique called emdr, which stands for eye movement desensitization and Reprocessing. What it does, it mimics the eye movements that we do when we're sleeping during the REM sleep, which is moving our eyes side to side, which is your brain's natural way of reprocessing information. Now, during trauma, information is not stored in a way that's good for us, in a way that is helping us. Probably it is helping us because it's kind of like store. Our brain cannot cope with it at the moment, so it freezes it. Yeah. But then if it stays frozen, that's when issues start happening. So with emdr, what we're doing is we're melting that trauma, we're melting those memories we're connecting to our body. About this pain that I'm feeling in my back and my chest, this chronic Issue that I'm having this chronic illness, what am I linking it to? Maybe this illness started right after I lost my dad. So processing the loss of my dad, processing what was going on in my body, how the first time that I felt that pain, I linked it to that loss that I was having. And I identified with that pain, and that pain was serving me for whatever reason. So I'm holding on to it mentally. And so with emdr, we reprocess that. We allow the mind, the body, to release it through the eye movement, through the type of therapy that we do. And also with this belief that we have about ourselves. Sometimes with. With trauma comes, you know, beliefs about ourselves like, I wasn't enough. I didn't do enough. I'm a bad person, or it was my fault, or. And so it's that belief about ourselves, that negative belief about yourself is kind of like the glue that's keeping the trauma stuck to your body. And so by releasing that, we're able to. Yeah, to reprocess it in an adaptive way that. That's allowing us to. Yeah, to kind of like, put that. That kind of like that hose out of it to. To allow it to leak out. So that was a long explanation. And I wish there was a more specific way of telling you how exactly it is stored in the body there. Of course, there are different theories. Like I told you, the Body Keeps the Score is an amazing book that does a really good job at, you know, talking about trauma stored in the body. Thing is, it's. It's. It's different for every person and how it is. But I think it has to do mostly with that. That belief that we hold about ourselves. And it could be, I'm not safe, or it could be I can't trust anyone, or, yeah, I'm a bad person. And that's what's being up there.

So powerful. Thank you for educating people on that. You know, obviously it's really intricate and there's a lot to it, but I think for just, you know, listeners to understand that this is a thing like this exists. And I love that you pointed out that it's important to do both physical movement to release this energy and the mindset, like the mental aspect as well. It's like the pair of them together to really release and heal. And I always like to say, like, it's not about getting over it because we don't get over our traumas or our things. Right. But we move through it, and we choose how to move through it productively, and we choose how it will impact us. And we choose to do the work and take personal responsibility so we don't leak our stuff to other people. Not an easy choice. Right. So I just want to, I want to honor everyone listening. Like, if you're listening, you're doing the work right now. Like you're invested in your growth. You're putting time and energy into learning more. And so that's a beautiful thing. And trust how important it is for you and for the people around you and beginning to open your mind or expand to understand that, you know, your body does store these things and for you, your body and for others beginning to first become aware of that, like you said. Right. Don't wait for it to be a chronic and then second, really work through that is super important. So you'd mentioned the book the Body Keeps the Score. Do you have any other tips or suggestions that you would offer to somebody who wants to learn maybe more about this or that wants to explore more about how trauma could be impacting them through physically?

I love that journey because it's, it's so personal, you know, as far as recommendations. Yes. Reading about it, the Body Keeps the Squares is an amazing book on it. Overcoming Trauma Through Yoga is also a great book that, that I really like. Of course, talking to a friend, talking to a therapist. For me, honestly, it was my yoga practice that, that helped me get through, through my grief, that helped me connect to my body. That was to me, the key. It was my gateway drug. So a lot of things, but every person is different. You know, I think if you can see the change that's been happening to you physically, keeping you in a place where you really don't want to be in anymore, where you feel like there is this hole. And I don't really know what this is, but I know there is something else and I want to get out of here. Then start by trying out different things. Start by, by exercising, start out by reading. Start out by meditating, by doing yoga, by talking to a friend. Just something is going to, to kind of start lighting up, you know, maybe not so much at the beginning. It's not going to happen in one sitting, in one read, in one book, but it's, it's going to happen. The thing is that grief sometimes, yeah, it keeps us stuck. And so it's that allowing for energy to, to move that, for that awareness to come up, you know, that, that there, there, there is something there. There is this pain physically, emotionally. And so being proactive about it as much as you can, it can be Just talking to someone, or it can be just going for a walk for 10 minutes and then 15 minutes, and then maybe start running or stretching out. So, again, it's. It's a very personal journey, I think. But I think you're right. The fact that they might be listening to. To you, that they might be listening to, you know, different type of podcasts, that. That. That already means that they're on their way. You know, that already means that they're putting the work. Now it's about, okay, I've been doing this now. Now what else? Okay, then let's do. Let's look into it. You know, let's look at different options. Again, it doesn't have to be one specific modality, but just trying different things and trusting that they're. That they're in their way.

Yeah, I know. Trusting the process. Right.

It's hard to do.

It's so hard to do. But, you know, it takes that emotional resiliency, and as you do it, more and more you embrace the beauty of the process.

Exactly.

Yeah. You can really fall in love with it.

Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, for. For me, it was yoga, really. For other people, it can be therapy. For other people, it can be exercising. For other people, it can be even finding a new job, something that aligns more with what they want to do. You know, it's an invitation to change. It's an invitation of releasing that energy. Yeah.

It's so beautiful. So, you guys, everyone listening, just think about what resonates with you. There was a lot in this podcast episode. We shared so many different kind of concepts. And I also want to honor and acknowledge, too, if back to our concept of toxic positivity, that's important to break through in order to make space for being aware to what's happening inside, for being aware to what you really need. And so if you're grieving or just navigating challenge or adversity, you know, really be aware of that. And if you're supporting somebody, really be aware of the temptation to say, like, oh, it's fine, or it'll get better when. Or look on the bright side, or at least you have this right. I always say eliminate the words at least when you're supporting somebody. And I think that's really important. I do also want to acknowledge Michelle, because when I. It's funny, when I came to Tulum, like, it was very interesting because, you know, back home in Boston, everyone knew about Layden, my daughter, right. And I was just known as Laden's mom. My friends, my family, My colleagues. And then I was back and forth in la and in la, I did a lot of public speaking and I.

Would talk about my story.

And so people knew when I came to Tulum, it was very different. And so when I had shared, like, you know, for some people, like, they had no idea about this part of.

My path, that was kind of a.

Weird feeling for me because I was like, anyone going to see me differently or. You know, I used to. Sometimes people treat you like grief is contagious because they don't know what to say, and they just. Yeah, and I talk a lot about that in some earlier podcasts, right, because we don't want to add loss to loss. Right? Like, someone goes to loss. We don't want to run away from them because we don't know what to say. And, you know, it's just. It was so clear to me how much work you've done and how much you've studied and how just, you know, you know, eloquent and graceful you are with these heavier things. Because the next time I saw you after that, you walked right up to me. You looked me in the eye and you just said, thank you so much.

For your beautiful post.

I really enjoyed it. And I was like, you know, like, a lot of times people don't know what to say. They just don't say anything, and they just, like, pretend it didn't exist. So I just want to share that, too, and let Michelle be an inspiration for anybody. Support supporting somebody or associated with somebody. And it doesn't have to be, you know, grief in the sense of loss. It could be someone who lost their job. It could be someone who broke up with their significant other. It could be anything that's uncomfortable that we don't want to talk about. Don't just run away from it. Right? Don't use toxic positivity.

Have that strength and that, you know.

Ability to kind of lean in and acknowledge it and hold space for someone, because that's a really. That's a beautiful gift.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much. All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope that provided you a lot of value, a lot of tools, and a lot of resources as you are navigating your own paths, whatever they would be. As Michelle said, everyone is really different. So do not compare your path to anybody else's. Do not compare how I feel or how Michelle has healed to how you need to heal. Let people be sources of inspiration, but trust yourself around what you need the most. Try different things. Like Michelle said, try something for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. See what aligns. See what you believe is going to support your healing. Trust the process and keep going. I so appreciate being able to spend time with you guys. As you know, this is work I do in honor of my daughter Layden, so it allows me to spread her light. Thank you for being a part of that. I will see you soon. Next week. Or you can catch me on Instagram. I am Mindset and Maldak and we will talk soon.