Episode 6: Ego, Death, Reinvention & Chosen Endings with Mike Michalowicz

I genuinely believe that the tear down creates the room for something new.

It was advantageous occasionally to have one teammate that's like, hold on, we're making a stance here.

I think that's huge. I mean, when Layden was dying, I did everything I could to fight for her.

Our deepest pain becomes ultimately our greatest lane. Therefore, when I say fixed, it's exactly what I wanted. But because it wasn't playing out in the script I had ordained for this, I started to grieve.

We are welcoming back one, like, very rare reappearance on the podcast because he is that good. And his first episode was in such high demand and got so much feedback. I am so excited to welcome Mike Michalowicz, who is publishing his tenth book right now. He is the author of Profit first first, which many of you will know him for. Many of you have read. I've connected with many of you on it. And he's publishing his latest book, Money Habit. Yeah, Mike, welcome.

I'm back. Like, hacky sack. Remember that? Remember Hacky Sack from, like, the 80s or something?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

We used to go into the schoolyard. Like, you know, kids would be doing it. I sucked so bad at, like, I was the kid. Like, you know, kids be kicking around. They kick it to me, and I just kick it and go like a mile away.

Stop it.

Yeah. I was not. I was not a hacky sacker. I wasn't good at it.

Yeah, that's okay. You're good at a lot of other things.

Yeah, it's okay.

It's done.

You don't. You don't have to be good at everything.

It's so great. Well, Mike, I'm so glad that you're here, and we have so many kind of stories and different things that we could bring that I think would be very valuable to everybody. But before we dive in, I do want to just let the listener know why I am such a stand for putting yourselves in environments, whether it's masterminds, whether it's trainings, whether it's certifications, where there are people who are doing really cool things in life and to go into it unattached to an outcome. Because, Mike, you know, you can feel when someone comes in and they have an alternative motive, feel it dripping off of them. It's so weird. And people say to me, melissa, I don't want to make sales weird. And I'm like, well, then don't make it weird.

Yeah. Right.

And. But so if you're going to these things. Yeah, then don't make it weird. It's only what you bring to it. But the biggest opportunities and the best relationships in my life have come from being in masterminds or at events. People who are committed to doing something at a higher level. And so, Mike, I met you back in 2020 at a profit first certification when it was all people in the finance industry. And then this Instagram girl shows up and is like, hey, I want to learn profit first. Do you remember that?

I totally do. And it's funny, I just kind of did. Oh yeah. I was going through my phone. I was flying home from London yesterday and so I'm like, I'm going to clear out some pictures. I had no Internet access, which is a blessing to be without Internet. I found a picture of me and you from way back then.

Yeah, I do not. That's not my favorite picture. I'd probably show it on Instagram.

Oh, you know the one I'm talking about.

Oh yeah, the prop adverse training. Probably that one.

I don't know. I don't know where it was. It's just me and you. I'm like, this is way back because it said like 2019 or 2020 on. I can't remember.

Yeah. And I just thought you were the profit first guy. I had no idea that not only are you the profit first guy, you are a well established author who has sold 1.8 million books so far and counting. And that you at this time were running next level author trainings. And so you graciously me when I told you about my mission and the book I wanted to write. Now for anyone listening, we just published my book five years later.

Boom. I got right here scar tissue.

Scar tissue.

This. I got one at my office here. At one in my home office. I have another one at my. I got it everywhere. It is amazing. What a well written book too. It's so good. Oh, it's so good.

Yeah. Well, fast forward. We won't get into all the details, but basically through attending that one event led to next level author, led to some business mentorship, led to just, you know, forming a connection and relationship and going back and forth. And when I knew it was time for me to really write the book is where you stood for me and this book. Many people listening have it in their hands, have it in their hearts. It would not exist without you. So Mike, I cannot thank you enough because it's my purpose and it's my daughter's legacy.

It is your purpose. It is her legacy. You left out just one little tidbit of the Story where the most recent chapter in our connection ended is with you kicking my ass on a 5k run. I could not catch you. Could not catch you. That was fun.

That was so fun.

You took second place over. I got third place. So you motivated me, you, myself, and Alex Ramon, the famous magician whose residency in Vegas, took first. That was a blast.

That was an absolute blast.

Yeah.

Yeah. That was great. Thank you for putting that together and having me come speak to your community. So, yeah, as you get to speak to mine. You know, I think looking at. We talk about grief in so many ways, and that was a lot that you and I explored as we were diving into scar tissue. And that grief can actually manifest in many different ways. It's not just death. Right. It could be an aging parent, it could be a divorce, it could be empty nest. All of these different components of it where we feel a loss or like something that isn't the way that we envisioned. And you recently shared a really unique angle of grief that through my whole book and through my whole study of grief, I never have considered. And I think it's really powerful. I guess, in a way, it's in a relationship. But would you share about kind of what that's like in terms of how you are, you know, navigating changes in the publishing process for you?

Yeah. So it was something you shared about grief that opened me to this understanding. And it's. This is my words, but is your thought is when there's something that's inconsistent with an expectation that we have. I expected this, but I got that. And that discordance causes or could cause grief. So for me, it's funny because I got what I wanted, exactly what I wanted, but not in the way I expected. And therefore, I'm grieving over it. Not deeply, but I notice it sits in the subconscious. So here's the backstory. I was with Penguin for six or seven of my titles consecutively. Profit First. The revised and expanded edition was with Penguin. And I wrote other books with them, too. And I've done very well with them. Majority of my books have sold through Penguin, but the last two books I did were underperformers compared to historically. I wrote a book called get different, which actually I'm extremely proud of, but it's sold tens of thousands of copies. It hasn't surpassed a hundred thousand mark yet. And my book before that has just now is just about to get to the a hundred thousand mark, which is kind of the lower threshold. By all means, when I'm working with a imprint like this and based upon my history, you know, they want a guy that sells hundreds of thousands of books minimally and ideally millions of books, like Profit first is doing. So I had this plan. I said, I don't know if I want to be in traditional publishing anymore. The market's changing. I think there's greater opportunity for self expression and so forth. By going with the hybrid, which is what you did, and you can see the results. You can put so much more of yourself into the book. You have so much more authority over it. You can channel it to where you want it to go. You can market the way you want. There's a lot of opportunities there. The risk is you do have to make the investment in it. I got to pay for printing my own books. And so the upfront risks are taken on by the author, but the longer term rewards and direction are also given to the author. So I call Penguin, my editor there, that's your main contact or liaison at the publishing house. And I call him. I said, hey, I want to talk about something. And it's, it's, it's very important to me, but there's something I gotta discuss with you and say, oh, I'm so happy you call. I was thinking about calling you. There's a transition afoot and I wanted to talk to you about it. And so instantly I'm like, pull on. Hold on.

Yeah, I was gonna dump you.

I didn't know you, man. And so I start getting choked up and emotionally goes, let me just tell you, we think it may be time to move on. Oh my God. I didn't want this. It's exactly what I wanted. But because it wasn't playing out in this script I had ordained for this, I started to grieve. And like, like that dumped boyfriend. I'm like, what can we do to make it right? I really love you, man. I really love you. And so, and it's so funny because the logical head is like, this is exactly what you wanted. And they're giving to you on silver platter. There's no awkwardness or something. It's a mutual departing of ways. It's perfect. And I'm like, oh no. So we departed ways. I'm with a publisher called Page 2, an imprint that we co created together called Simplified for the entrepreneurial space. It is the most glorious experience ever. I love the company, I love the product, I love the people. Perhaps that even beats everything else. But a little part of me has a little scar that I hear Penguin, I'm like, they dumped me. And I'm not through that process yet, and I never thought I'd go through that, and that's exactly what I'm doing.

That's so interesting. You are grieving a loss. This is. This is an interesting one because there is a chapter in the book called Chosen Grief where we have a breakup or we leave a job or we leave a relationship, whatever it may be, and we've chosen into it.

Right.

Just lost that light. We've chosen into it, and so we can still grieve that loss when we've chosen into it. And sometimes people don't give themselves permission to grieve it because they're like, well, I chose this. Right, but you are grieving a loss that you chose, but then was also, like, at the same time presented to you. And you're grieving this in, like, such a unique way rather than just that you chose it. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah, because you think, well, here's what I realized. You know, I go to the social event and I go, how's things with Penguin? And I think the script I had planned for myself is like, oh, I chose to dump them, you know, stick my chest out all snooty, grab my smoking pipe. The leather patches on my. My sports jacket. They're not my quality. They're inferior. Like, I think I had this whole stupid script planned out, but they dumped me seconds before I dumped them. So now I'm like, it's not even a pipe. It's like. It's like a. It's like a cheap cigar. It's like it tastes bad. I lost the analogy there. But you know what I'm saying.

No, totally is.

I. I think I wanted to spin this story, and it made me, to me, look a certain way, and now I can't do that. And I'm like, golly. So it's a very peculiar form. It's a very peculiar form of grieving.

Yeah, well. And I think what's really interesting in the card just that you are witnessing, and this is also a big part of the book. How do we witness our experience instead of, like, being blinded by it? So instead of going into some rampage, which maybe you did, it's okay. We're all human, but you are witnessing. Whoa. This is what's coming up. But, like, whoa, this isn't rational. And I think that's so important in life, in business and relationships and grief, to be able to untangle. This is a real experience that I'm having right now. It's real. It's not rational. But it's still real.

You know what's so great? Thank you. And what's so great is just in this dialogue, the acceptance. You know, I think a lot of people, when they go through any form of grief, maybe losing a job, maybe losing a family member, whatever it may be, some of the community around them responds by saying, it's okay, you're going to get through this. All the words to try to mollify the grief and not. Which prevents them from accepting it. I remember when my father was dying and dying, I mean, I guess for the day you're born, you start dying. But in his last two years of life, he was homebound and immobile and stuff. He had his full mind. And he would tell me of his frustrations with being immobile, his frustrations with decline physically. And my mother, which is like this rosy glass type of personality, like, oh, it's okay, you're fine. Like, tomorrow's a better day. And I could just see I was making more and more upset. So at a certain point I said, mom, you gotta leave the room. I know you love dad, but you're hurting him. And my dad, tell me how it feels. Let all that. And he's like, this stinks. And once he. Once the steam came out, actually, the next day was better. You know, he wasn't stuffing in. So what you're doing with me is you're. Let me share the story, which rationally is. It's, like comical, but you're just letting me let it out. And it's like, I can see how it's comical. Tomorrow's a better day. But when people like, oh, you know, you didn't want penguin anyway. And then it actually aggravates the healing process.

Well, that comes back to what we chose for the whole cover of the book. Talks about activity.

Such a good cover, by the way.

Oh, it's so good.

It's so good.

It's so good.

You know, I love kudos to your publisher. This wasn't a very important flower, you know, you wanted to have a flower on there which is part representative of the healing. I love that they didn't only find a way to integrate it, they made it a key focal point. Like, you read the title, which is awesome. Just how they did that. And it just draws your eyes right here to your name. Great.

It's beautiful. But what you're speaking into is. Is honestly a huge part of the mission of the book, which we're now partnered on. Right. So it's our mission and it's the toxic Positivity. And every single chapter, which kudos again to the publisher who I have a call with after this is, you know, every single chapter, she asked me and I just opened it up to one, of course. And those of you listening can't see.

It, but oh yeah, has it.

Yeah, every single, every single chapter has a toxic positivity statement. Now I remember Jen asked me to. Jen is the publisher. She asked me to write 14 toxic positivity statements. And I didn't know why. And then I was like, well. And then how I would respond. And I was like, well, Jen, I would respond differently. It would either be, yeah, I don't know what you got there, but yeah, it's everybody. Like a non response, a boundary response, an educated response, and then a reframe. And I was like, Jen, this is so redundant. This is so silly. And what I realized, and this for a lot of people, especially because we both have entrepreneurs in our communities, what is so simple and clear and easy to you is not to somebody else. And that's where like the mastery comes into teaching it. But so many people, you were embodying what's in the book called a teammate of a listener, where you just let the person go. You don't try and fix them, change them. Compare to like other things, what your mom was doing was reacting to her discomfort and totally feeling disempowered that here her husband is struggling. So maybe if she just says it's going to be better, better, he'll feel better, she'll feel better.

Yeah. You know, it's funny though, like, you're clearly an athlete. You've been for a long time. You kicked my ass running out there. But I remember when I played sports too, there was a role for that person. Wasn't maybe, maybe it's kind of grief, but it was loss related. When the team was down, it was advantageous occasionally to have one teammate that's like, hold on, we're making a stance here. But what was interesting, and I think the difference between my mom and dad and a teammate was a teammate said, we're in this together, I'm stepping up and I need you to step up with me. Where my mother was rejecting his feelings as opposed to, we're getting us together, we're getting through this together. It was like, you, you will get through this. And I wonder if that's a subtle difference of almost embracing the individual who's grieving in some capacity where you're now.

Teammates a hundred percent. I mean, genuinely, I think it's the difference of fight or flight. In a way.

Yeah.

Like we're going to fight through this. Like, this is not. Like this isn't working. Like something's not working. This is not going well. We're gonna like, stand for it, stand in the fires. I call it the burn. Right. We're gonna stand in the burn.

Yeah.

We're not gonna run away from it. And then that flight just needs to get away. You know, there are many ways that it presents, but I think that's huge. I mean, when Laden was dying, I did everything I could to fight for her. I shared this recently when I spoke, you know, whether it was like dimming the lights, whatever I could do. And I wasn't gonna sit there and pretend like everything was gonna be okay. But here's what I'll offer. See, what you think is I say it's the word. And like, I'm going to hold that we are going to get through this. And I know it does not look well. So how do I fight instead of or? And I think so many people get trapped in a conversation of or. Like this is either dire, right? Like or which is bad, or we're thinking positive and it's like, no, this is dire and we're going to think and act positively like that. That to me and versus or is a big differentiator.

Totally. It reminds me of the essence of improv. A yes and as you always expand on the situation as opposed to compress it within or. Or a no. But so at our event profitcon, we invited in the authorities authority keynoters on the space of was hiding in plain sight. Meaning what are you living with now that maybe you don't even see? And so we along with yourself had Hal Elrod wrote the Miracle Morning. And you both keynoted and Hal said something that complimented your speech. And he said when he was diagnosed with cancer, he was given a 30% chance of living. And he shared that his wife was devastated by this news. And I love how he as the griever supported her and said, I understand and appreciate how devastating this can sound. I want you to know that I'm a hundred percent sure I'll be one of the 30%. And I was like, oh, that's such a. That's such an. And like it wasn't saying, oh, 30% for other people. And I got right. But he said, I'm 100% sure I'm going to be the 30%. That's how I'm going to live my moment. And sure enough, that is what he experienced. But he didn't deny the reality of that challenge.

Oh, that's so powerful. So as we kind of wrap on the theme of who wants to talk about grief? Right. And challenges and all of that, I mean, the way that I discovered you was through your book Profit first, which opens with the story I still remember with your daughter Adela bringing you the piggy bank when you to your family at a rock bottom moment and you went into a darkness. Now, premise of this book and so much of our lives is how these rock bottom moments can become the opportunities, the learning, like the finding the wisdom and the scar tissue.

Yeah.

What would you offer to somebody listening who's maybe approaching a rock bottom moment? Maybe they're feeling it. Maybe they have their piggybang candid over version of their life. How would you encourage someone to navigate that?

I'll give one that's practical. I'll give two if that's okay. One that's practical. From my experience. And when I heard recently that I'm pondering deeply, but I don't understand yet. So first, mine is, I believe, the thing that we need to fix. And that's not the right choice of words. You can't fix a scar, but the thing that we. Our deepest pain becomes ultimately our greatest lane. Therefore, when I say fix what I realized when my daughter offered a piggy bank to me to support our family because I destroyed us financially, that that was something for the rest of my life that would be a grief, a pain, something I need to quote fix. The greatest way to fix it is then to become a teacher, because the greatest student in the room is always a teacher. So I teach so much about money topics because admittedly, I sucked or suck or will always suck with money. But it's elevated my game. I'm so attuned to it. I am way better with money, and I don't think I'll ever be perfect with it, but it's because I'm trying to resolve it, trying to introduce it to others, to encourage them. They keep revisiting the basics. So the best student is the teacher. So I think that's the benefit or one of the things. Here's the thing I'm pondering and I don't. I don't get it yet, but I was hearing from a friend of mine, I didn't even realize this. The entrepreneur, Barrett is his name. And he had a warehouse that was uninsured with all his equipment and materials, and it was on fire. And as it was burning down, he looked at it and there was A friend here who accounts for this and he said something awesome is going to come out of this in that moment. And I don't know really, does something awesome always come out of the bad? But at least to consider that this wasn't the end of everything, it was the start of something is something I'm pondering now that, that rock bottom moment and you shouldn't expect like, oh well, thank God for this something's good stuff. I'm not, yeah. I'm not saying. But what I'm saying is in that rock bottom mom, that's life defining life, shifting something in there of great service, maybe also being granted to you at the exact same time this, this horrific thing and also this new thing. And that's just something I'm pondering now.

Yeah. Well, I think that I genuinely believe that the tear down creates the room for something new. And so anytime I've gone to a new level, there's been a death for a birthday.

Yeah.

There's been a death of a way that was a relationship, that was a business, that was for there to be a birth of something greater. It's like you have to create the space. In fact, I remember when I reached out to you saying I wanted to write a book. I was curled in a ball on the floor. Right. And you know, it's so interesting is my daughter's sign is a white butterfly. And there was a white butterfly on my window that day for about three hours. I have pictures of it. And I remember in that moment, even in complete breakdown, even in how am I going to pay my mortgage? I'm a single woman who just signed on for a very hefty mortgage, not planning to leave her job, knew she had to not even job her business. Right. I'm an entrepreneur, but knew she wanted to make a shift, she had to make a shift. Now how it was going to work. There was a part of me that knew in that moment it was going to be fine.

Yeah.

But I don't know that I would have gotten there so quickly if I hadn't gone through the loss of Laden. So I would wonder what this gentleman you're talking about has been through for him to be able to have a literal, literal burn down and say in that moment.

Yeah, I, I don't know. I don't know. I know in my rock bottom moments, even my, the, the penguin moment, which is like, it's not even rock. I wasn't even under the water moment, it was like just, even, even then I can't, I. In the most Acute part of the moment. I don't think I can. Was able or am able to say, oh, there's an awesome here. There's something good coming. I know it's a piggy bank. It was years later that all of a sudden there really became. And it's. Listen. There's little touches and bits and pieces of it, and you flounder back and forth and switch on and off. And at a certain point became a switch to the more positive side or the opportunity side. More than the grieving side or the pain side, the grieving will always be there and with Penguin, too. But in that moment, I've yet to ever have any kind of pain that I'm like, oh, there's something awesome here. Even exercising, even running, which is the healthiest thing that we're all doing. There was not a moment that. That I'm sitting there and this. There's an awesome here. I'm like. But afterwards, there was. Looking back on it, it was so much fun.

You know, I think it's a muscle that you grow. And what I'll just say is what I've had in moments like that is I've realized I'm having an ego death.

Yeah. That's what it is.

There is. There is a layer of my ego being shattered right now, and I don't know what the good is, but I think we all create a little bit better when we have a little less ego involved. And we're all humans. We all have it. Like, anyone on here listening? Like, I don't have ego. That's your ego talking.

Oh, yeah, exactly. That's funny. That's true.

Right? So, Mike, any final words? You want to leave the people, Let them know where they can find you.

Yeah, yeah. So my work's not in the. In this space, but it's in the entrepreneurial space.

Sure.

And the money space. So if you have any money challenges, Mike. Motorbike.com. my last name is Michalo. It's. It's so hard to spell. So Mike is like Dougalaki. So, Mike, Motorbike, as in the motorcycle.com, all my resources are there for free. You know, you don't even have to sign up. You can just get stuff.

He has so many unbelievably valuable resources. Mike was the first book that I read, Profit first, where I'm like, okay, I no longer feel like I want to vomit when I'm thinking money for my business. Incredibly integrous, human, funny, and just committed to serving at the deepest level. So check out his work and be sure to access and learn from it in any way that you can. And check out his programs and his events and all the things. So, Mike, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, my sister.

Appreciate you.

Appreciate you.

All right, let's go change the world.