Organize Your Life & Home: The Simple System That Gives You More Time & Energy | The Home Edit

Today on the Mel Robbins Podcast, you and I are getting organized. The Home Edit is here to help you go from chaos and clutter to feeling calm and confident in your life and home. Clea and Joanna, The Home Edit is here in Boston. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Thank you. It's the best.

We are so honored to be here.

Thrilling.

Well, I invited you to the studios in Boston instead of my home in Vermont because I was too embarrassed to have you.

You know, you're not the first person to tell us that.

I have followed you online for years, and I will tell you upfront, I am so excited to talk to you because I have had a very mixed relationship with you two because I've seen how beautiful your work is, and it has stirred both inspiration and a bit of, uh, shall I say, shaming of myself when I see your beautiful pantries and color-coded stuff.

I'm like, I don't think I'm ever gonna—

We're gonna erase that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Erase that. Erase your shame.

You are? Yes.

We're gonna erase your shame.

Absolutely. It's for inspiration, but it doesn't have to be the what you absolutely need to strive to become.

Yes. Our Instagram, it's our portfolio. It's of course it's gonna show all the beautiful things. You know, we, we like to say that, that the things that we put on Instagram, it's, it's like having a wedding album. It's not the marriage. It's the wedding album. Yes.

And we need to lower everyone's standards for what organization has to become. Yes, Klee is exactly right. It's our portfolio. Of course we're going to make it pretty, but this doesn't have to be exactly how you live.

Correct.

I love you.

I love you. We want people to live in a way that makes them feel good. Yes. That's what organizing is about.

It's self-care. And that's what we need to make sure that everyone knows.

Okay, so hold on. You just said so much stuff. I need to, like, tap the brakes a little bit and just make sure I am taking my own color-coded highlighter out. Out and, and just waving it through the air to say, there were so many things I wanna make sure that as a person's listening or watching, they got it. You said organization is self-care.

Yes. Yes.

You also said your beautiful photos are your portfolio. And so think about the things that you're inspired by online. Mm-hmm. When you think about whether it's interior design or organization, the work that you do at The Home Edit with, you know, people's houses that are hiring you to come in, that that's your portfolio. Much like you look at the wedding album. Mm-hmm. But it's not the marriage. Exactly.

It's the, it's the beautiful imagery. It's the inspiration. It's what makes you excited. But it's not, it doesn't have to be your life. No. Your life has nuance. And, you know, a wedding album versus a marriage is the way we think about what organizing should be. And of course, the photos and the imagery is gonna be beautiful.

Yeah.

And it's a snapshot.

But it's a snapshot.

I mean, it's a still snapshot. This isn't movement in life. Right.

And so let's start this way, Clea and Joanna. If the person listening takes everything to heart that you're about to teach us about, quote, organization, even if your life feels chaotic, your home feels chaotic, what might change in my life if I, if I follow what you're about to share?

Mental clarity. Having physical clutter is, is a burden, and without it, it brings you mental clarity and, and a, a clutter-free brain. You know, it's not just about the tabletop, it's not just about out what's in your cabinet. It is a, it is a mental burden to take in things around you that are not organized and don't have systems. It, it is a drain on your energy. And so when people say, well, I don't have time to organize, you know, this kind, you don't have time to not be organized.

That's right.

Like you need to be able to take a breath. You need to not be searching for things that before school drops off, it takes so much more time not to be organized than to be organized.

And organizing is not a one and done, and it doesn't have to happen all in one sitting. I think that's the other misconception about it too, is that people think, okay, I have an hour, I'm gonna organize my whole house, or I'm gonna organize whatever whole space this is. No, let's do it in pieces so that it's not so overwhelming. And each piece is powerful in itself.

Organizing should be manageable. It should be maintainable.

Yes.

Sustainable. It should not give you stress. It should take stress away. And again, We're here to, to remove the shame that everyone has.

Yeah. No shame.

I don't care if, if you organize, you know, one cabinet of mugs, you know, it's something. And it, it, it is just, it brings you immense freedom to know that the things that you have in your home, that you made a calculation, you chose these items to be here and you removed the things that, that don't belong, that's right. That don't bring you any happiness.

It's choosing like to be active instead of passive with, with your belongings. And it changes everything when you have that shift.

I'm sitting here thinking about the fact that you start to feel like you have an avalanche of things.

Yes.

Yes.

That you don't know what to do with.

You don't, and you just feel paralyzed by your stuff. People get paralyzed by it. And it's just the worst feeling, which is how we both got into this, is because it's the most freeing feeling to free yourself of all of this clutter that's in your mental space, but also in your physical space.

And I'm thinking about the fact that this has been true for me when I lived in a studio apartment.

Yeah.

In law school.

Yeah.

It's true now that I have a nice home.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You can fill whatever space you have. So if it's a tiny studio or if it's a humongous mansion, it doesn't matter. Both things can be cluttered or not.

We have a very important golden rule of organizing, and it's the 80/20 rule. Much like eating, you don't wanna be more than 80% full because it doesn't feel good. So if you organize the way we're, you know, told to kind of treat our bodies, it's the same thing. 80% full. Give yourself that 20% breathing room. And honestly, I don't care if you're not color-coded and, and, you know, make it Instagram-worthy. If you keep your home to that level, that 20% gives you so much mental freedom and it gives you so much peace.

Oh, it's just, I, we get so excited.

I know we're such nerds. We get so excited.

We get so excited talking about it because it is, it's freedom. And the best thing, I, one of the things that we so love about organizing is it doesn't even have to be expensive. It can cause this massive shift in your entire life and cost $0. Literally, it's the edit. The edit is the magic. It's where the exhale happens and it's 80% of the job of organizing.

There's another thing you just said.

Yeah.

That I wanna make sure you get. So I've always used the word organizing, and from here on out, I'm going to use the word edit.

Yes. Yes. We put it in our name for a reason. The Home Edit. The edit is the single most important thing you can do for your home and yourself. And it costs $0.

I love this because you're right. Organizing, I'm just like moving stuff around.

Yeah. And it feels overwhelming and it feels like you're cleaning and all this. No editing. You're curating the things that you need, use, and love.

This is going to be one of these conversations where I forget I'm supposed to interview you. Because I'm gonna be so up in my own head dealing with myself and picturing places in my home.

We should have done this in Vermont.

Oh my God. Well, that'll be act 2.

Yeah, let's get on a bus.

It's a magic trick though. Changing the way that you think about it is half the battle also.

Okay, well let's talk about something that we need to change the way we think about. Because so many of us think we don't have time. Yes. That the clutter's not really the problem. The problem is I don't have time to deal with the clutter. What do you say to the person like me who says, well, I just don't have time to do that?

Old adage, maybe we made it up, I don't know.

That we're old, actually.

That, right. That organized people are just too lazy to look for things because we just want something in one spot.

Right.

We just, we don't wanna look for it.

I don't wanna search around.

I don't either.

I don't wanna have to look for my child's favorite water bottle across the school. Right.

Or the keys in the morning. Like what a way to start your day to look for your keys for 15 minutes. No, let's have a spot for them that they always, your keys are always here.

Every physical item in your house. Should, should have some home, right? I don't care if it, it doesn't have to be like in a bin. No, it just needs to live in the same spot. Somewhere. So every morning your keys, you know, right there, you always know where to go. You always know where to put it away. And it's just, it's that easy. It's, it can be drilled down to being something that simple.

And it's a system. And it, that's the other piece too, which is we'll get into later, which is not to overcomplicate the system. Right. You have to have simple, sustainable systems.

Trust us. You, you, it is time well spent.

Yes.

To take that small amount of energy and just focus drawer at a time. Yeah. Cabinet at a time. Doesn't have to, doesn't have to be overwhelming.

And do not do the house. Like we would never advise you to even do a room to start with ever, ever, ever. That's not where you wanna go. No.

You don't even start with a room?

No, absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

You'll be paralyzed in the corner. Yes. Like it's so overwhelming to start with a room. Absolutely not.

You need to start so small. And who doesn't have time to just go through like one bathroom drawer.

Let's just do a drawer. Let's start with the drawer.

Everyone has time for that.

And 15 minutes in the morning, even just the edit. We don't even have to organize it. Just 15 minutes of an edit.

And then every morning when you get ready, we like to set up something called a daily drawer. It's that one drawer that has, you know, your dental, if you wear contacts, if you, your Q-tips, things that you know you need every single morning.

Okay. I'm already wrong in my bathroom cuz I'm like, okay, wait, where is this stuff?

Organized people are just too lazy to look for things.

And it's self-care. This is so important that people realize this. It is for your mental and physical wellbeing that you do stay organized.

It's also for my marriage. I mean, I am gonna be celebrating 30 years of marriage this year, but my poor husband has watched me for decades. Yeah. Race around, particularly in the morning. Yeah. Looking for things. Looking for things. And I have to stop and say to myself, and I'll say this on behalf of you as you're listening and watching too, we don't have to spend the rest of our lives as this version of ourselves. No. Wasting time looking for things that we need.

No. And it's a muscle. Organizing is also a muscle. It doesn't, you don't have to be born good at it. You can learn to have a system that works for you and you are organized. You can call yourself organized.

All right. Well, let me ask you another question, because as you're listening or watching, maybe you feel the way that I feel, which is, how can I be successful at work? How can I raise kids and have them fed? How can I be in a relationship and my dogs get fed? And yet I can't manage my own house or my own closet without having a panic attack.

Well, okay, let's break that up a little bit.

Yeah.

Okay.

First of all, what you just described, you're a really busy person, right?

Yeah.

And most of us are like, I'm sure all of your listeners are very busy people.

Yes. Very busy. You are highly functioning and you simply just need to take something off of your list, which is again, not racing around the house trying to search for a million things. You actually deserve a break. You deserve to have some peace in your home so that you can deal with all the million things you have going on. If you are a super busy person, again, whether it's kids and work and feeding dogs and, you know, signing homework slips and—

it's a lot—

all the millions of things, and organizing actually takes something off of your plate. Yeah, it, it is a small amount of energy to put into something that has such a long-lasting effect, and it actually removes like a burden. It's not. It doesn't add to it. You— people have to rethink and shift their, their idea of what organizing is. It's not another chore. No, it actually removes so many chores from your plate because you just don't have to think about it. It's plug and play.

And I'm loving this idea of systems and the edit. Yeah, because I have spent a lifetime shoving things behind doors.

Yeah.

Putting things in baskets, like just trying to contain it all and like make it go away.

And what's more overwhelming than opening a cabinet and having things tumble on you? That, I mean, what a way to start your morning. It's terrible.

Yes. But I had this question because I wonder, you know, there are so many of us that feel like if we were just smarter or more disciplined, somehow our house would be more organized. Why do you think we tie clutter to our self-worth?

Well, first of all, we need to— let's break that apart completely. Okay. Clutter is not a character flaw. Okay? It is not.

Why does it feel like one?

Because I think we shame ourselves.

Yeah.

And we are here to literally remove the shame from everyone's mind and body. This is not something we have to hold on to. We just— all it takes is a little bit of time and effort at the beginning for the longest reward.

Yeah.

We are not the clutter that we see, right? We can fix that. We can do something about that. And again, all it is is an edit. We don't even need to get into the tenets of organizing. India Cutler is a very solvable problem, which is so like exhilarating. Like how— what an amazing thing. It's like we struggle through so many things in life. Clutter just doesn't have to be one of them. Clutter's just, that's easy, you know, let's just remove it.

And we can solve it with the edit that you're about to do.

Yeah.

Solve it with the edit.

I will add one thing too. I think the spaces that you decide to start first, we wanna start with the simplest, least what we call like a landmine space.

Okay.

Because what happens, a closet is a perfect landmine space. And one of the reasons that people, I think, don't even realize that they resist organizing is because they are afraid of what they might find in their brain of landmine issues. Let me give you some examples of what those landmine issues could be. Will these jeans ever fit again? I don't know. I, I wish I could lose more weight. I always thought I would be a different size. I always thought I would go back to this old size. Oh my God, I just, I, I don't know if I should keep these jeans. Am I gonna ever— now I feel bad about myself. Okay. Am I gonna have another baby? Well, if I have another baby, I spent so much money on these maternity clothes and I only wore them once. I would, it would be a shame to have to have another baby and now I have to buy the maternity clothes. Oh God, do you think I should talk to my husband? Are we gonna have another child?

Or, or just even the, the thought of, you know what, I spent money on that.

I spent money on that and I never wore it, or my grandmother gave it to me and I never liked it. So there's guilt associated with all these decisions too. And so that I think comes into play a lot of times with people having this like aversion to organizing because they're afraid to confront these bigger existential issues going on in their minds.

And I think that, that Joanna's exactly right. I think that It— those are the real issues why people resist it, but they use the fact that they don't have time. And I think that we all have a little bit of time. You spend a lot more time looking for things. You could spend very little time just being like, I actually don't like that.

Yeah.

You know, I don't like that mug.

It has a chip and I'm never gonna get it fixed.

It doesn't match the others. Whatever it is, it's so much easier actually to just make decisions about things. We, we have to go through life making good decisions all day, every day. So why not let this be one of them? And again, start extremely small. Start in a space like Joanna said, without landmines.

Yes. No landmines. A junk drawer has very few. Yeah. That's why we love a junk drawer. You're not that attached to a paperclip. Right. Like, let's be honest. And if it's bent outta shape and it's not gonna work, it can go. Like, so we wanna start with the small wins and then you kind of get your muscle memory and you kind of build your confidence and then you're like, oh wait, you know what? I can actually do a cabinet too. Because maybe that mug is sentimental from college or maybe it's not, but you start getting the muscle and you're like, you feel the reward and the endorphins start kicking in and you're you're like, "I can actually do this!" And then you're off to the races.

Boom. Thank you to today's partner, Expedia. You know, if you haven't booked your next trip yet, now's the time. Let me, your friend, remind you, you deserve to go do something exciting, 'cause travel can make you feel alive in so many different ways. In fact, research tells you and me that travel's one of the most important things that you can do for yourself, your happiness, your health. In fact, most people make a big life decision after traveling. And you don't have to go that far. Yeah, you could fly halfway around the world, but it could just be a quick weekend getaway or even exploring the neighboring town. It all counts as travel because you're getting out of your day-to-day and experiencing something new. And Expedia makes it easy. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, all in one place. And when you bundle, you can save up to 30% with everything you need in one app. Life is short, so stop waiting and book the trip. And the beauty of having everything in one app with Expedia is that you can go from an idea India, da booked in minutes. No jumping between sites, no hassle. Sign in to save. Savings vary. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. So let's say I look around my house from the garage to the— if you're lucky enough to have an entry or a mudroom to the kitchen to the— and all you see is like, oh my God, what's the first step?

Okay. Okay.

So the very first step, let's just talk about a mudroom.

Okay.

Let's just say, okay, a mudroom or an entry, whatever you have, especially if you have kids.

Uh-huh.

It is what one of the places that we call Grand Central. It is where everyone comes in and out of, and it's where things get dropped and things get left. And it's like, well, this is my project pile and this is where the kids' backpacks are.

Yeah.

And so the first thing you need to do is assess, does everything belong here?

Yes.

You know, like, are there things here Like dirty socks.

What?

No.

Why are those there?

It's because I have a 21-year-old son.

All right.

Well, that walks in the door and drops it on the floor.

And we'll get into what you do with that.

We'll get into that. We'll go to that.

We'll get into that.

And we're gonna come back. We're gonna stay on task. Yes.

We're gonna stay on task.

The very first thing you do is, is say, does all this belong in this space? And many, many times they don't. Things go, they should be in the garage. They should be up in someone's bedroom. They should, you know, if there's a project pile, let's make a spot for that. So first, just assess quite simply what belongs here, what doesn't. That would be considered the A. I'm already picturing it.

I bet as you're listening, you're doing the same thing. I'm in my Grand Central in my house.

Yes.

And I am mentally inside my grandmother's cabinet that sits next to the door. And I am mentally inside there going, why do we have the dog food in a Igloo cooler? Exactly.

Right.

Why is there a like kind of vice thing that belongs in the garage? Like you are literally walking me mentally through the fact that half the stuff in that entry doesn't belong.

Doesn't belong. It doesn't belong. And you know what? And a lot of times people don't do the organizing is because there's too many steps to put something away. And that's something we get into later too, which is like removing the barriers to entry and having simple systems so that things make sense.

That is also, that is exactly what I was gonna touch on next.

So as we're in though, your version of Grand Central, whether you have a studio apartment or you have a big mansion. Yeah, exactly.

Right.

And you're visualizing this and you're asking, does all of this belong in this space?

That's right.

What am I doing with it?

So, okay, so let's say now we're removing the things that don't belong, but there are still plenty of things that do belong. And why are they all on the floor? Okay, now we believe very simply, just, you can't fight the tide, right? If people come in through this door, people, if your kids come through this space, they are going to put their shoes here. Their backpack is going to go here. You're never gonna get them to carry it to the room, right? We know that. So don't fight the tide. Create a home where it's going to end up. For instance, if shoes are going to come off, all you need to do, put a, put a shoe bin there. At least it's contained. It's not all over the floor to trip all over.

If jackets need to stay there, then put hooks on the wall. Put hooks. Let's work vertical. Let's use the storage space vertically, especially in a small space. We are always hunting for spaces and looking up is usually one of the best spaces.

Exactly. Always look up. Add hooks, add a floating shelf.

There are external storage opportunities, carts and credenzas and all kinds of things that you can bring in that add storage opportunities.

And very simply, again, very inexpensively, adding hooks and a bin for shoes can take up— it can be such a solve for an entry, for a mudroom, for anything like that. The goal— I don't ever want to see things just laying on the ground.

No, nothing goes on the ground. In fact, unless it's a rug, it should not be on the ground.

Right. Or a shoe bin, you know, a basket. But again, The, the shoes are in the basket.

That's right.

It can be a very, very inexpensive thing. I don't care if you live in a studio apartment.

In fact, if you do, you can probably find something for free on Facebook Marketplace. That's right.

There's tons of options there. And I'll back up one second. If you're walking in and there's 12 backpacks and you have 2 children, let's talk about that. Why do we need 12 backpacks here? Have we just been keeping them as the child getting a new backpack every single year? Okay, that's fine. Again, we're not gonna focus on you bought— now don't get into your head with the landmine. Why did I buy a backpack every single year when they could have be—

let's not go there.

Because they pressured me.

And everybody else had one.

That's right. And you know what?

And you did your best.

You did your absolute best at the time, but why are we doubling down now on, on them having 2 backpacks or 12 backpacks? Okay, let's remove that. Let's decide which backpacks do they actually use? Is there ones with holes? Let's get rid of those. Is there ones to donate? Let's have donations.

I was gonna say donation is a huge part of taking away the guilt, taking away the guilt in what you bought your kids and what you bought yourself. If, I mean, even in a junk drawer, if you're like, oh God, but like all these markers, I don't know. You know what?

You know who could use them? Schools would love them. Teachers would love them.

Schools. Kids need bath— it is one of the essentials that they need to be able to go to school. There are so many things we can do with the items that we feel guilty about, quote, getting rid of.

Let's not have the guilt on top of everything else.

You don't need to do it.

We all have too much guilt.

I want to make sure I'm tracking because where we're starting is you pick a place that's not a mental landmine.

That's right.

Which really narrows the focus for me in my house because I think there's a lot of mental landmines. But I love that we're just going to start with Grand Central.

Yeah.

Okay. We're just going to start there.

Okay.

And I love that you're basically saying a couple of rules I want to make sure I'm following. Does all this belong here? And if it doesn't, then remove it.

Yeah.

Or donate it.

Yep.

You also said nothing belongs on the floor except for the rug or your dog.

Right.

And so if you're looking for places, bins where it goes, look up. Vertical storage is always an option.

Behind a door, over a door.

Behind a door, over a door. Hooks are super cheap.

Yep.

And don't fight the tide.

That's right. You got it, Mel.

Stop turning Grand Central into an Architectural Digest photo shoot.

Exactly.

And just embrace Grand Central.

Embrace it.

Got it.

If you know that every day, whether it's you or a partner, whatever, everyone gets the mail and the mail always goes right down on the counter.

Can we talk about this?

All we need is a simple basket.

Tray. You need a tray.

That's it. A tray, a basket. That's it.

Let's talk about paper clutter. Why do the entryways, the kitchen—

Yeah.

Like, why do the counters—

Flat surfaces. Because it's just asking. You're just like, oh, this is a space I can put things on top of. So we also try when it's possible to not have additional flat spaces for things to get cluttered.

Like open flat spaces.

Yes.

Just a flat space is fine, but just an open, empty spot is asking for clutter.

No, that's where you put a tray and you have the tray designated for mail, for keys, for wallets, whatever it's for. It's a home for something. It's not just an open, endless sea of whatever wants to go there.

What do we do about the kitchen island? Because what drives me crazy, maybe it drives you crazy as you're listening, is, okay, we've gone through Grand Central. Yeah. You enter into the kitchen and I swear to God, I spend an hour every day picking up my husband's glasses. Yeah. My son's keys. The mail that somebody just put there. Yep. The other, like, they can't see their pockets.

This is the second Grand Central.

It is.

The kitchen island is?

Yes, it is.

The kitchen in general.

That's exactly right.

So am I supposed to embrace that it is or what?

So the same rules apply here. That's the good thing is the rules are the same. Okay, so now we're going to see what doesn't belong here. Keys don't belong on the kitchen island. They sure do not.

But they could belong in a tray.

That's exactly right. They don't just belong on the kitchen island.

Basically, here's one rule that we just really embrace. We do not like a free-floating item. It should have a home.

If you—

if this pen is just like right there, well—

It's on my kitchen island right now.

It doesn't belong there. It doesn't belong there. Have a pen cup.

Yeah.

Have a tray.

Have a drawer.

You know what I just realized is I just realized that I have an opinion about where my husband's reading glasses belong.

Okay, great.

Like you just said, it doesn't have a home.

Yeah.

And I'm like, well, it's because I think the home is on his face. They do not belong at home on the kitchen counter. Same with Oakley's keys. I think they belong in his car or up in his room. Yeah, but they end up on the kitchen counter. Okay.

Now I'm—

okay.

You can't fight the tide.

You're fighting the tide.

Yeah. So they, this is the tide. This is exactly what we're talking about. We're not gonna fight it because that's just gonna make everybody, it's gonna make you crazy. It will.

It, it, it has made me crazy. And we talk, I am crazy.

This is, well, this is what we also talk about, um, a me problem and a them problem. So this is something we really talk about and it's easy in, well, I will give the example of both of our children's bedrooms.

Okay.

Okay. We ask our children separately. We don't live together. We are married. Shockingly with kids.

We are married to other people with children.

Yes. Yes, but separately we both ask that our children make their beds. Well, okay, they most of the time do. It turns out both of us hate the way our kids make the beds.

Yeah.

So now I go back and remake the bed the way that I want it. That's a me problem. They did their best, they made the bed, but I don't like how they made the bed cuz it's not up to my standard. That's a me problem.

For instance, you put a basket down for shoes in the mudroom or entryway. Well, they might just toss them in and it looks a mess and whatever. I want them lined up nicely. That's a me problem.

That's right.

It's a them problem if the shoes are on the floor, not in the bin.

That's right.

So you have to set up systems that your family, your household, whoever you live with, that it's really simple and that everyone can follow and understand. Because if it's, if they leave the keys or the glasses not in the home that you helped create, yes, that's a them problem. That's a them problem.

And that's something that needs to be worked on.

So I don't have a home for those things.

Right.

Which is why they keep ending up.

That's why.

And that's a me problem.

That's right. That's why I gotta create a home.

Then you create the home.

And then it's a them problem if they don't follow it.

Oh my God, I love this.

Yeah, it's a me and a them problem.

Got it. Yeah. This is actually kind of simple.

It is. It is. Wow.

Organizing is simple.

Okay, let's talk about editing. Okay. Because when you said, okay, we're not even gonna talk about organizing, let's just talk about first this editing.

Yeah, yeah.

'Cause editing will free you. Free.

It will. It's magic.

And I also assume editing is how I implement the 80/20 rule.

Yes.

Yes. Okay.

Absolutely.

Any space, only 80%. Full, that the 20% allows me to breathe, and editing is the thing that will set me free.

You're right.

It will.

So I'm assuming editing means decide what to keep and decide what to trash. So how do you edit?

So the rules for editing.

Okay.

Okay. An item has to fall into one of these buckets in order to keep it. All right. You either need it, a toilet plunger, you use it, you know, a toaster spatula, you know, whatever it is, you use it. You know, and you love it. You actually just like, you're attached to it. You just love it.

It brings you joy for whatever reason that that might be. It's somebody gave it to you that you love it. It represents something to you that you love. Whatever reason, you don't have to justify it. You just, you just know you love it. It makes you happy.

You need it, you use it, or you love it. Aside from need, use, and love, there's one other bucket and that is sentimental. And sentimental, you might say, well, I love the things that are sentimental, but that's not always true. Sometimes it's just, it's a special item that you just feel you can't get rid of. Like you can't get rid of. Now there are two rules within sentimental. Okay. Okay. You either need to use it or store it appropriately. When people tell us that this whatever sweater from their grandma is really important or whatever it is that it's sentimental and it's just shoved on a back shelf, I question how special it actually is to them because you are not honoring the item. If it actually is special and sentimental, you need to either be like, I'm gonna put this in a keepsake box at the top of the closet.

Mm-hmm.

Or I'm gonna have it framed. You have to honor whatever it is.

Yeah.

But if it's something that you're like, I just can't get rid of it, it's like, then you need to honor it and like display it or honor it and store it.

Now there's a rule with the storing it because some people, everything can fall into sentimental. It, of course, it can become a very slippery slope. So what you you have to do is put up a little bit of a guardrail and decide, I, in my house, my studio apartment, or my huge house, doesn't matter. This is how much space I wanna allot to my sentimental value of stuff. So I, whether it's the size, maybe you have 6 bins and they're the size of this table, maybe it's a whole garage full, but you have to assign a value of how much all this stuff means to you and then decide what's worth keeping and going through that stuff and making sure that it really has value to you because there's also a dollar amount. Tied to the sentimentality, people think about how much you pay in a mortgage or how much you pay in a rent. How much stuff are you just holding on for the sake of holding on that's taking up so much valuable real estate in your house that you could be otherwise have other things or just breathing free air there?

Yeah.

So these are all like decisions to kind of think through in other ways to make the value seem more rational. Yeah.

So when I go through this edit list, need, I need it.

Yep.

I use it, I love it.

That's right.

And then we've got this little subcategory.

Yes.

With a giant red flag called sentimental.

That's right.

Because this is where we fall into starting to hoard And keep saying, "I really love it." That's right.

It's a slippery slope.

Because you can justify, "Well, I bet—" Absolutely. And so we can correct ourselves by going, "Okay, well, am I actually honoring it?" Yeah. Or is it on display? Yeah.

Is it not? Because if it's shoved in the back corner, doesn't seem special to me. Then it's really not that sentimental.

Right. Here's what I didn't hear. Should. Right. I should hold on to it.

Well, the thing is, we don't believe in that. We just don't. If it should, That does, that to me does not equal, um, a desire, a want, a need. It's, it's like putting this like imaginary, well, I should. Shoulds are not powerful. Hmm.

And they feel powerful. That's the thing. They feel so powerful, but they're, what are they? It's not that you want to or that you need to, it's just that you should.

I, I would always question, well, why? Tell me why you should. Is it because you think that someone's really going to come over and look for that tea towel? Because they're not. Like, no one is.

I can't believe you just said tea towel. Because really, I know, just was sitting here thinking, because you can't help but listen to you two and start to mentally go through your thing. And so as I'm going to edit, I'm like, okay, need, use. And I was standing in my kitchen and I thought sentimental. And I have my grandmother's china. Great. Absolutely beautiful harvest pattern. Yep. And it's on display. Great. In a cabinet. That's perfect. I never use it, but I love seeing it. That's perfect.

That's exactly right.

Do you know how many doilies and broken pieces of costume jewelry I have jammed into a door in my closet? Okay. A drawer in my closet. Because I should hold on to those.

No, let's talk about that.

And then I'm like a bad granddaughter.

No, let's talk about that.

I don't want this stuff. No. Even like, I didn't even know my great-grandma. Like, I know the, the, the, the, the plates mean a lot to us. That's right.

And that's the difference. And that's the difference. We question, we have to push back on people, right?

Well, I feel like a bad person if I'm ditching broken costume jewelry from the 1920s.

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And we always push back when someone says it's special. I wanna know why. And I wanna know if, again, your china on display is—

look how you lit up when you were talking about the china on display.

I love it.

I have some vases somewhere that are— I mean, incredible. Look how you lit up.

And now this doily brings you down. Oh my God, there's a doily next to the broken jewelry.

Yes. And let's talk about this too, because this is— that doesn't mean anything.

This is another way to know what means something and what doesn't mean something. Okay, so what— in part of our process, we like to categorize things. So what this does is allow you to see the totality of, of a category. So say it's all your great-grandmother's or your grandmother's stuff. What if you brought all of the things that your great-grandmother has ever given to you and put it all in one space and you're able to see, okay, all of that stuff stuff takes up this table. Well, actually, I love these dishes and the rest of it means nothing to me. Well, you're representing your great-grandmother through the stuff that you love. Why are we holding on?

She wouldn't want you to have a bunch of broken costumes. Look how much you are honoring her, and you—

this makes you so happy and this brings you down. And what, what are we doing? She's dead anyway.

Exactly. There you go. She's— and she wouldn't want this. I know, I know, right? I know.

Uh, but maybe somebody else wants it, then you donate it. Okay. That gets into another conversation. But I mean, thinking about it, seeing it all together, which is part of our process, even with not just sentimental stuff, but like anything. You have 40 pens. Do we need all 40? Can you have 10? Right. You know, like, let's see the totality of something to really make those decisions easier. Now let's talk about the crap.

Mm-hmm. That does not fall into that category. And I have wrestled myself to the ground. Uh-huh. And I've got some things. Okay. I've got— let's use the example of pens. I've got 20 extra pens. Okay. That I do not need. Okay. I have clothes that don't fit. I have other things over here. Now I've created piles. Yeah. Yes. And I have piles that are like, okay, get rid of this, donate this.

Okay.

Am I reselling that?

Now I'm super complicated. Okay. To start, if the piles are categorized and they're all jeans, that's a— that's a— you're starting the organizational process. Right.

You're really two-thirds of the way through. Then we talk about containment. And containment doesn't have to be a bin. It doesn't have to be drawer inserts. I mean, obviously we like to operate that way, but again, you can do this for free without. Okay. You need to have guardrails for any item that you're keeping. Any. So if it's, if it's denim, whether you hang it or fold it or whatever it is, you only have X amount of space. I don't care if you live in a humongous mansion or a studio apartment. You only have X amount of space. So your items that you keep cannot exceed your space. It's the 80/20 rule. So if you have 20 pens, 20 extra pens in your drawer, you're taking up now too much space.

And now you can't fit a pair of scissors because you have too many pens.

Well, I can't open the drawer because the scissors are jammed in there because there's too many pens. That's right.

It's always the scissors and the rolling pins. It's always those two things. Right.

And the potato masher. Potato masher always gets in the way. Yeah. Yeah, but it's, it's about, you have to think about containment. And if you're not using drawer inserts or things like that, then you have to just assign a containment kind of in your brain for like, this is where pens go. I can only fit X amount, which means I have to actually get rid of some. Right. And it's, it's the 80/20 rule.

And that, and the containment goes back to the categorization because if you can see that you have 20 pens, when they're all, when things are all scattered all over, you have no idea what you even own. And then you end up wasting money because you're buying it over and over again.

That's so true. And then I have 40 pens, not 20 pens.

That's right. But if you see them all together, again, this comes back to you don't have time to not be organized. Like once you're organized, you save so much time and so much money. Right. All right. Well, we'll come to the—

into the details of the organization and containment in a little bit. First, I want to make sure we understand editing. Yeah. And we talked a little bit about pens and scissors. Let's talk about the junk drawer that we all we all have that gets out of control. And I would love for you to walk us through a zero-cost way to take the disaster in a drawer and edit and organize.

Well, someone brought us your drawer, Mel.

Yep. We actually— I'm so sorry to tell you at this late stage.

Did you call Kris?

I am so sorry to put you on blast like this.

I have your junk drawer.

I know this is your show and this— Oh my gosh. This is your junk drawer. It is. Okay.

Show it to the audience so everyone can see. No, they don't need to see. Oh my God. So let's— this is perfect because we can go through to go through all the steps right now with you. We're gonna— okay, this is gonna be the edit.

The first step with an edit is you have to take it all out, and there's no way around it. There's no way around it. Let me explain why, okay?

And I'm gonna start just going.

There's no way around it because if you just looked in here, whether it's a closet, a drawer, or whatever, it's very easy to say, uh, this all belongs, this all stays. But when you pull it out, you actually have to make a conscious decision about putting it back. It's active versus passive.

Oh my gosh, you know what I've done with our Junk Drawer? I'm glad you're doing this, so now I don't have to do it. But what I love, at least I have a rubber band ball. You do have rubber bands everywhere.

That's right.

I will arrange one little bit of it. Yes. Like one little side tray thing of it. And I might pick out the fuzz or somehow the dog hair or the old Band-Aid is in there. Yes. And then I'm like, okay, God, okay, just shut this thing. Right, because you have to do the edit. Look at how much stuff is in there.

It's always amazing how much comes out.

Oh my gosh. Duct tape, glue stick. And, oh my God, the card that was missing from the cribbage game last night. There you go. The joker.

Like, why is this in here? I don't know.

I know one card is not in there.

Oh, I know, because we didn't need it for the game. Okay. So somebody put it on the freaking kitchen island. Okay. And then I got frustrated when I was cleaning.

Right.

So I then put the card in the junk drawer because I didn't wanna see it. Oh my God, look at the receipts in there. Yeah, so let's— Oh my God, all those cords and the boxes.

There are a few things that we can just, like this—

What is that? What is that? I don't even know. I don't even know what it is. It's like a part to something that I don't know, but I'm holding onto it.

We don't even know.

Do you think I need to find the other part?

I don't know. Nail polish. This coffee cup lid. Oh, this doesn't belong in here.

No. No. And I got the bracelets.

I don't even know who those are. Okay.

So like already you're seeing, but see what we're doing right now is we're categorizing this stuff. So you can see even in the little drawer, the totality of each thing.

These are like your little erasers.

These are your highlighters. I hate half of those style of pens. Pens. Okay, I would not use that pen. Let's—

well, I've got one chopstick. Okay. Yeah, one chopstick.

All right, we've got some sunscreen. Okay, so there's some office supplies in here.

Yep, here's a little office supply section that I'm putting together.

All right, and then we've got some laundry— like, okay, that could— I could make a case for this.

Yeah, so even before— even before we get into like, do you want these pens or this pen, I think it's just a very even cursory look at being like, okay, bracelets don't belong here. Nail polish does not need to be in a junk drawer. Tea bags do not need to be in a junk drawer.

You're right, but I feel so conflicted because I'm like, where else am I gonna put it? No, that's—

but that's where it goes. Wait, hold on. Let's actually ask a question. Do you paint your nails in a place that's next to this junk drawer? No. No. Okay. Where would you paint your nails? My bathroom. Okay. After I take a bath. Then it belongs in your bathroom.

On the floor of my bathroom.

That's where it goes. That's where it goes. This goes in the bathroom.

I can only do a good job on my toenails if I'm sitting.

That's where it goes. There you go. That's where it goes. On the floor.

But here's the truth. Okay. I—

Say it.

Say it. Say it.

Say it. I don't even know why I have nail polish because I'm—

You hate your nails.

I don't often get a manicure. I only get a manicure or pedicure when we're taping episodes in Boston. Otherwise, I live in Vermont. Like, I don't know why. I bet I have 8 bottles of nail polish lying around in different drawers.

Would you want to have nail polish in your house or would you never choose?

No. Okay, then we don't even need this.

I wear the same. I need nail polish remover.

Okay, great.

Great. So never buy nail polish again.

So what do I do? Because those are full.

Then you can donate it to someone. Yeah. Okay. Like a daughter or—

Okay, we're going to talk about how we do that because I have a hard time moving from the pile of donate. Okay, we'll talk about that. Put a pin in that.

But okay, like, for instance, this is a list at some point that has been spilled on and you can't even read it because of the water stains.

It was probably something that Kris asked me to do and then I spilled on it and I put it then in the drawer because I would come back to it later.

Yeah, I'm guessing you either did it or you didn't do it.

No, that's dated February. All right. Okay.

So we're going to take that out. Teabags can move to the kitchen.

I don't even like Irish breakfast tea.

Amazing. I do. I'll take them. Okay. All right. See, you're donating.

Duct tape belongs in the garage.

Okay. So this is a keep, but it doesn't belong in the junk drawer. And look how much space this takes up.

So what belongs in a junk drawer?

I'll tell you. Well, let's ask you. Okay, so is this drawer from your office or is this from the kitchen?

This one is for the kitchen.

Okay. So in a kitchen, let's talk about the things that you would need. We, you don't need this in the kitchen. No, I don't. Okay. You, would you use, if you spill, would you use a Tide pen in the kitchen? Probably not. I'd probably run upstairs. Okay. So this does not live here.

I would take a little bit of the, the Dawn, like dish soap.

Right. Totally.

So that goes in the laundry room. This is trash.

Yeah, that's trash.

Here, I have a trash pile over here. Okay. Does a keychain belong in the kitchen?

It doesn't even have keys in it.

No, no.

I don't know where the hell that key is from. Does this matter to you at all? No. No, it goes.

I don't even know what that is.

No, it goes. It goes in a donate pile. Pile. Um, now twine could belong in a kitchen, but do you use it as such?

No, because I have a drawer that has, uh, twine, wrapping paper, and my scissors for cutting flowers. Okay, so this goes— organized, which I love.

This goes into that bin. What about these headphones? Yeah, they're broken.

Okay, there you go.

They must— I blame Oakley. This goes—

we don't have to donate everything. If it's broken, it's trash.

Okay. Okay, now bracelets and hair ties.

Hair ties I would need in a junk drawer. Okay, great.

Perfect. And the bracelets?

I don't know who those belong to.

They can go. They can go. All right. Okay. Now, like, what is this?

Like, I don't know what that is. Whiteout?

Okay.

I'm not looking for that in the junk drawer.

Okay. This is cuticle cream.

No, I am— I do not need cuticle cream. Okay. Do you sharpen pencils?

Not in the kitchen. Okay, so it can go in, like, somewhere else. Okay. All right.

Yes, I need a tape measure in the kitchen.

Absolutely. And that is an appropriate thing. A pair of scissors you need in the kitchen.

Yes, yes, I need those.

Do you use sunscreen in the kitchen? No. Sometimes? Okay. Nope. So this can go somewhere else. The nail polish is—

If I weren't donating the nail polish, I would go put it with the sunscreen because it would probably go in my bathroom.

Okay.

Right.

Well, let's put that— this is donate, but she'll keep the sunscreen. Okay.

Okay. And now we have 4 birthday candles.

Oh, God. Birthday candles are tough. Yeah. Okay. Because you kind of feel like you might need them at some point.

Do you have an entertaining area? A who? Like an entertaining little girl?

I'm going to take that as a no. No. But you know what you do have right here is an empty box. Yes. So let's at least put— so that they're not free-floating. Candles are kind of something that I feel like would just be like rolling around your drawer. So let's actually use the lid.

But does she want them in the kitchen? I guess so. Okay, fine. That makes sense.

Okay.

All right. All right. Okay. Okay. So I would put the matches—

you have matches on the table. Put the matches in with the box. Okay. There you go.

Now you have a little birthday celebration. Okay, bin. You have some erasers. You have another thing of matchsticks. Let's put all the matchsticks together.

A random spoon. Does this belong to anything? No.

I mean, it'd be cute in a sugar bowl, but—

Would you use it? I don't know. Would you be happy to see this?

You can move it to where your—

I don't know. Utensils are. I feel like I should keep it. Okay. Okay, fine.

But I didn't do the edit.

I didn't. I don't need it. I haven't used it. I don't love it.

Okay, then it can go. Right. See how perfect? Okay. Take the word should out of your vocabulary.

Okay. This charger, we don't know.

That one I could use because it's a C.

Okay. Okay, great. Rubber bands, do you use?

Yeah, we can go in the dump. I don't know the last time I looked for a rubber band, honestly. Who wrote— I don't know.

You took the time to make a ball out of it.

No, that's how they come.

Oh, clearly I don't use rubber bands. Okay, so we'll take that away. Right.

That could go in the garage with the duct tape. Okay.

Yeah, that's fine. That's fair.

It's like a useful item, I guess.

Yeah, but like none of us use it. There's 3 of us sitting here that none of us use rubber bands.

Okay. You seem to be a list maker, so let's keep—

Oh God, just rip the thing off the top. I don't even know where I'm going.

Let's start over with the list. Now with all your flowers—

Can I just say something about that list right there? Yeah. That pad is too small. I don't like that pad.

You don't like it?

Let's get rid of that pad. Okay. I'm starting to feel freed up. Right? Yes, just wait.

Is this a painting?

Okay, this sounds like it goes with your flowers and the stuff that makes you happy.

Oh, I actually, yes, I need a place for thank you cards.

Now do you want that in your desk drawer or your kitchen drawer, or do you want it with your flowers and the twine and all that stuff?

I don't think I have room there because I got to contain it. Mm.

Okay. Now, but where would you go to look for it in your, in your head? Like, if you had the room, where would it make more sense?

I'd probably put it in the junk drawer because I've got pens in there. Great. Okay, that's fine.

And you know what? That's fair.

If it makes sense to you, it's okay.

That's right. Absolutely. And it doesn't have to make sense to us. It has to make sense to you.

You live there. The smartest system bar none is what works for you. Period. The end. Not what works for us. No. What works for you. So. And this one chopstick I'm going to put on the chopping block.

You know what the most valuable thing of this whole thing is? That you actually pulled everything out. Yes. You have to.

Because otherwise it's too passive.

It's so easy to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I use all that. Especially with clothes too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll wear that. No, no, no, no. It all has to come out. And that's why we don't get rid of it.

We're going to do that as a separate conversation.

That's a separate conversation.

That's a whole other thing. I'm already overwhelmed.

Will you put this back? Do you know which card— deck of cards— Yes. That it goes to? No.

I feel like I should put that back.

Okay. Would— will you? Or is it going to be a— is it should—

it's going to be a chore.

And if the barrier to entry is too high, sitting in here and taking—

I don't play a single card game that requires a joke. Okay. None of it.

Then it— we do not need it. Okay, great. If you took the card out and there's not a single game that requires it, let's lose it.

Okay, great. Okay. You have a couple coupons.

I don't even know what they're for. Cat food. Cat food. He doesn't eat it, so throw it out. Like, noodle makes it.

Can we just celebrate, like, what you've already done in 5 minutes? Look at what you're down to.

You're down to things that actually just live in this drawer. Need, use, or love. That's it.

It's so simple. And now, now watch, we're not going to spend any money.

Okay. And you know what, I can do more. Okay. I only like the black pen, the blue pen, and the green pen. Get rid of the rest of them.

Okay, here we go. They go to a teacher. Jeez, that was a little aggressive, but okay. Yeah. All right. And do you use these? What are they? Little Post-it tabs. They're kind of— oh yeah, she does.

She definitely uses those.

Okay. Okay. All right.

So, and you Do you use little panda erasers? Are these just envelopes?

I do not use erasers.

Okay, you do not use erasers?

No, I don't need an eraser. Okay, somebody else put that. This is empty.

Oh my God. So, and where does the mail typically go?

Um, I typic— it typically ends up on the kitchen island, and then I passive-aggressively drop it on Chris's dress. Okay, that's fine.

So it goes there, passive-aggressively or not, doesn't matter.

Finds you a new tray.

We don't have judgment about passive-aggressive behavior. That's not That's not our segment.

Yeah, that's not our brand. We don't mail belongs on Chris's desk because he sits at it 5 days a week.

There you go.

And then it'll actually get opened and the bills will get paid and amazing. Fantastic.

And you have a pack of batteries that are contained. So, and I'm sure you need batteries.

I have a different drawer that has batteries.

There you go.

So it does not, but I don't know. Now that I'm realizing this, I need to do this with every drawer in my kitchen because I've got a bunch of drawers. Cause you have stuff, other stuff that's missing.

That's where, that's where the corralling and categorizing comes into play. But you know what?

I don't need you to spend a whole weekend doing this. I could just do one drawer at a time.

Right. And that's why the barrier to entry is so low. And that's why it's so freeing. How free do you feel now? Look, wait until we just put this all back.

I feel even better knowing you did it. Like, I know I, I, I, I know I can do this.

You can. You just did.

Okay. And then you've got these old box lids that you're using. And that way you don't have to buy drawer dividers. No, right. You just use box lids. You absolutely can.

Now you have extra envelopes. Would you— are you ever—

Never get rid of the envelopes.

Okay. Okay, we just need one.

I'm starting to feel like you kind of get on a roll here. That's the endorphins kicking in.

It's so freeing. It's like shopping, but the opposite. It's so, it's so exhilarating.

Shopping, but the, you know what we're shopping for?

Space. Space. You're shopping for space.

I can see what you mean now about you can't afford not to do this.

Yes. Exactly. And another thing that I just recommend, this is what I would do if I, especially if like things need to now move to other places. Just have a little basket with you so that all of these things just go in the basket. And then you just walk around your house, you put it in the garage, you put it in your bathroom.

I literally want to run out of here and be like, throw away that mug, get rid of this. No, it's powerful.

Put this where it needs to be. This is so manageable. And this is why we always say start with a drawer because see how excited you are?

I really do feel excited. And what I also like about this is I've always made the mistake of thinking that, okay, I gotta, I gotta take the whole weekend. No, I gotta take the whole weekend. No. And the whole— I'm gonna tear apart the kitchen.

I'm gonna redo all that stuff. 30 minutes. Take 30 minutes. Yeah. Holy cow. Yeah. And it's, it's as simple as that. One other important rule for someone wanting to start this process. Yes. Just like we did here. Do not take— do not start and edit. Do not take out more than you can put away in the same day. Meaning don't just take everything out of your closet. Yeah. And then what? The reason why we also love a drawer, you can go from A to Z with a very, you know, within 30 minutes. And the great thing is going from A to Z in a small space is the same thing as going to A to Z in a big space. The rules are the same. That's right. Got it. It just takes more time.

That was so helpful. And the edit's easy. Easy. Do I use it? Do I need it? Do I love it? That's right. Awesome. All right. I have more questions. Okay.

I'm gonna take the drawer away. All right, let's take all this stuff away.

All right. I'm gonna take the drawer away.

Because I wanna go from drawers to other things. Other parts of the house.

Okay, let's do that.

So let's talk about the big mistakes and draps. Okay. It's a Saturday morning. Yes. Okay. Kids are out, partner's gone. Okay. Sounds amazing. I got a burst of motivation. Yes. And now I decide I'm gonna declutter and organize and edit. So what's the big mistakes I'm about to make?

Okay, well, you started saying them all together. Organize, declutter, and edit all at the same time. Time. Let's just start with an edit. Let's start there and let's pick a reasonable space to start with, which are the drawers. So they could be bathroom drawers, they could be kitchen drawers. Let's start with drawers. If this is your first big go at it, let's get you really comfortable and feeling good about yourself. And once you finish that drawer doing the edit, go to the next one if you still have energy. But one by one, we're not going to take apart the entire kitchen all in one Saturday morning when you think you have a burst of energy that's going to last all day. It Will just spare you the, spare you the good news. It will not last all day. It will last an hour until you're in the fetal position in the corner. Cuz it's too overwhelming.

It's too overwhelming. The, again, this whole experience should make you feel good. Yeah. Not bad. You don't want, you should not have any shame. You should not have any guilt. No.

You should not be, you know, overwhelmed and exhausted and just get excited about this cuz it's an opportunity. It's not a chore.

Bathroom drawers. Also a great place.

Love a bathroom drawer.

Drawer. Great place.

So satisfying. Also, it's like the last thing you see and the first thing you see in the morning and the last thing before bed. And so to start your day and end your day that way feels so satisfying.

I am guilty of holding on to like makeup products or samples. It's still like, well, like, what if I run out? Or I might want that color. Or, you know, like, maybe I'll learn how to use eyeshadow one day. I don't know. You won't. I won't. I think that ship has sailed. But makeup products, they're just so small that you're like, well, I can fit it.

Yeah.

Doesn't mean that you should fit it.

How much more would you rather have the clear space than a peptide lotion you don't know how to use?

It's just, it's true. It is.

That's, and that's the thing to think about. Do I want the item or do I want the space? That's awesome. And if you get stuck, that, the, that binary decision is the best way to get out of being stuck, especially in a closet. Like, oh, I can't decide. Well, do you want the space? Do you want the breathing space? Do you want the extra hanger or do you want that pair of jeans?

Oh, I am going to be repeating that as my mantra. Yeah. Mm-hmm. For the rest of my life. It's, it really is so true.

Because it's binary and there's no gray area. Right.

It's just, you have to follow those rules. You only have so much space. That's right. And I myself, again, I am ruthless with everything in my house. I, but I love to shop. I just do. I love, I love shoes, I love handbags, I love clothes. Technology. But I will get rid of, she will, other items. She is ruthless.

So do you have like a one in, one out rule?

I kind of do.

Yeah. She kind of doesn't. I can tell.

No, no. No, no, no, no, no. She has to get rid of, it's usually 3 in, 3 out. It's like it comes in. Right.

I'm not quite at a 1 in, 1 out because I do believe in having space in the closet. Here's a rule I have for myself. I will not buy new hangers. I don't need any more. Ooh. The hangers are, they completely match the space I have. If I need to add hangers, then I'm shoving things into my closet. Oh. So if I'm, if I get into a 1 in, 1 out, that means like I'm not adding a hanger to accommodate my new clothes. Close. I will purge.

She, and she's an excellent, she is ruthless.

I'm hardcore. Yeah. Wow.

Why does mess always come back?

It really comes down to putting systems in, in like a situation that is so sustainable and easy and simple. So when a mess comes back, I generally think it's like, okay, Joanna and I obviously organize, we spend the time organizing our homes. If we create a system that's too complicated, needed, or don't put in a system at all, the mess will come back. If you're only tidying up a space and not truly organizing it, the mess comes back. It's all organizing is, if you really want to keep it as organized as the day you did it, you just have to create simple, realistic systems and set realistic expectations. A lot of it comes down to a me versus them. Is it a me problem or a them problem? If I— I don't even care if it's a kid's playroom. Room. You just put big floor bins for like blocks. That's right. For dolls. If you don't have Disney doll, Air Princess dolls here.

But people, but people do go down the path cuz it's easy to do. And cuz you do it one day and you get excited.

And they get excited.

And then the thing is it's too hard to maintain and then all the wheels fall off the bus.

Like, okay, for instance, for a pantry, we love pantries. We could talk, we could do a whole episode on pantries. Oh my God.

Okay. Nothing's more fun.

Every pantry. Pantry could be organized and look great by just having 6 categories, just bins, a simple bin. What are the 6 categories? It's breakfast, dinner, uh-huh, snacks, baking, cooking, dessert. That's it.

Thank you.

That's it. And un—

again, if you have the space and this is fun for you to have microcategories, have at it. Right. It looks, it can look beautiful. It's so fun. But if you are a busy professional or a busy person just in general, just the 6 categories and you are off to the races with your organization.

Just simple systems. And one of the keys to maintenance is a label. Yes. And again, that, that feels like it's just an aesthetic situation and it is not. Labels are a set of instructions for the household.

I love this. Oh my gosh. I am gonna have so much fun this weekend. What is the hardest thing that people seem to have trouble getting rid of?

Denim. Denim. We have had to make many, many aspirational denim categories in a closet because people feel like they're always going to be able to fit into their old jeans.

And I would say just generally clothes. Clothes are so— clothes are really hard because it's the emotional piece that goes with clothes. There's so many triggers in a closet that it's so hard. So going— once you are ready for the closet, Just give yourself grace and know that you may come across things that are hard for you to face and be patient with yourself because it is hard.

Okay, you were masterful in walking us through the drawer. If somebody starts with the drawers, okay, we're doing one drawer at a time. We're getting good at the pens. We are really starting to feel motivated. We got the 6 different items in the pantry. You got it. We have handled Grand Central.

Yes, you're working through it.

I'm working through the house. I'm realizing my systems are simple. I'm able to get things where they're supposed to be. I'm not buying more stuff. I'm starting to feel like, oh my God, I've got more space. I'm feeling good about this. Now I'm ready for the closet. Okay. How do you want us to think?

You still need to start simple.

Do I have to empty the whole thing out?

Not at once. Do not do that at once.

So do one drawer?

Or one category.

Or like one, you know, bank of clothes or whatever.

And are there categories? I know it's a weird question. Yeah. Like in the pantry? Is there a—

pajamas, workout.

Okay, give me the categories.

Generally, the categories like represent themselves. Yeah, so it's like pajamas, exercise, work, leisure, um, you know, like all those— swim, whatever those are— summer, winter. We have seasonal categories.

But, but you don't need to get so granular. No. Okay, I would just—

if it was me, I would just take all pajamas and throw them on the bed and start matching them and seeing what, what I like and what I don't like anymore.

Right, just Start with really small, simple steps. A closet, take one day a week and, and just do little small bits.

Do not do the whole thing at once.

And it, it adds up to really, I mean, editing out your closet I think is actually the most freeing thing.

It is. Imagine. Because that's the hardest one. And once you do that, again, it's, it's, but acknowledging on the front end, this may be challenging because I'm gonna confront certain emotions.

Let's just say I'm gonna tackle shirts that are hanging. Okay, great. Hanging shirts.

It's own category. That's great. That's great.

Hanging shirts. Great. I pull them all out of the closet. All of them. Throw them all on the bed. That's right.

Pull it out. Just look at it. Do I actually— do I want to take the 0.5 seconds it's going to take to actually put this back on the rod? Like, do I actually love this? Or do I— am I never going to wear this kind of tank top ever again? You know?

And if something creeps up, oh gosh, I've— it costs so much and I've never worn it, and now sell it, donate.

Okay, let's talk about the selling, donate. Selling Selling is a whole other thing.

That's right. And that's a barrier to entry. And so we don't want you to get stuck with the selling.

There are a few things that if you want to sell your items that are, you know, that you spent money on, that you feel like, you know, I spent, I spent some money on this. There are resellers that do the work for you. You know, there are people who do the Poshmarks, that do the RealReal. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah. All— there are people who do these things. It's their job.

And they just take a commission? Commission? Uh-huh. And they market it and you drop the stuff off with them?

Yes. They do. They pick it up.

They do the whole thing. And I would guarantee there's always an exception to a rule here, but I can't think of anyone we've worked with, a single client that has missed what they have purged from their closet. Ooh. They make the decision and once it's gone, it's gone.

You also have these rules in here in your—

Oh, we have a lot of rules. A lot of rules.

No, but I love these rules cuz I never thought about it. You say invest in Matching hangers. Yes. And you also say, when you remove an article of clothing from a hanging rod, put the empty hanger back at the end of the rod. Yes. I never do that. I stick it in the middle.

No, you can't find it. And sometimes, like, if I do a real big, like, a major purge, like, from all the different sections, I won't take all of the hangers and put them on one rod at the end. I put it in their section. Section. Yeah. So that way it's not— doesn't take up so much space on, on one rod.

So what if you live in a really small place? Okay. Okay. And do you have suggestions for like, where do you put things like clean laundry before it's folded? Where you put your work laptop when it's the weekend?

So this goes back to external storage, like we talked about with hooks, over-the-wall unit, things like that. That, a cart is a miracle.

What do you mean by a cart?

A 3-tier cart. They sell them at the— they sell them all over the place. We, we made one at one point at The Container Store. The Container Store has tons. Target has tons. Yep. And it is simple, like a 3-tier cart on wheels. A 3-tier cart.

Oh my gosh, I bought one of those for my son's dorm room.

It's 3-tier cart.

They are the best investment.

They can go anywhere.

Sometimes they can go in a bathroom, they can go in a kitchen, they can have towels, they can have bath supplies, they have, uh, you can get the, the wooden lid that goes on top for your laptop.

It's, uh, they are amazing.

They're your best friend. Best friend. And you can, you can put clean clothes in them while you're waiting, and you can literally push the cart from the, from the laundry room to your closet.

And then the back of the doors, there are some amazing— there's Elfa at The Container Store, which goes over the back of the door. It's clean looking. You can put shoes on the back. You can put—

oh, that's true. This is your look-up thing. So you have vertical—

I was looking for vertical, vertical space and an external storage. A cart is—

ah, but see, when you said external storage, I thought you meant outside. Oh no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Um, additional storage that doesn't exist already.

It's not like built into the house. Got it.

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. So how do you know when you've edited and organized and contained enough?

Okay, whenever it works. That's how you know. If it Works, you've done it. If it's falling apart, you need to rethink your system.

And let me say this though, it's not just falling apart. There is a level of maintenance that's required. Yes. Organizing is not a one and done. It's akin to exercise. You can't go to the gym one time. Like that is not how it works. Right. You don't do anything one time. You invest in your relationships. You have to constantly maintain things that matter to you. And organizing is unfortunately no different.

The thing I think people make, I mean, people make mistakes in a lot of different ways, but I think that one thing that is a mistake mistake is thinking about your organizing as a snapshot in time. It is a living space, right? You— it lives and breathes in your home. You add to it. If you organize your pantry, that's why we think we always want to think about like, what, what is the easy solution? What is the system that's simple to maintain? Because it, that's when things go off the rails. If it's— if you put in a system that's like kind of too complicated, it's not going to work. It's like exercise.

If something falls off, somebody puts in the steak knives into the junk drawer in your kitchen, it's not like, oh my God, it's over. No, no, no, it's exercise. Like you, okay, so you missed 2 days of working out, just get right back up there and do it again.

We talked a little bit about the low bar method for closet, but is there any other examples of low bar editing?

Our whole life is low bar.

Our whole life. So yeah, we have something called a low bar lifestyle, which means if you set the bar low low enough, you'll be able to get over it. Yeah. So if you, if the bar's on the floor, you're gonna be able to, to walk over it. That's right.

Except for nothing's supposed to be on the floor. That's right.

Except for the rug. The rug and the bar. Yeah. The rug and the bar. Um, but if you set the bar low enough, basically what we just want people to understand is that any amount of effort that they put in is enough. Any amount of energy, of effort, of, of financing, of whatever is enough, and you don't need to beat yourself up. Like, the Low Bar Lifestyle is about giving yourself a gold star for literally— like, we always say, if all you do in the day is make your bed, you've, you've achieved something.

Yeah, you started off and you did something today. You did something.

So for the person who's listening, who is sitting here just thinking about the state of their home, because as you talk, you can't help but like do a little flyby. Yeah, sure. And imagine drawers and particular places that you want to start but you still feel a little ashamed and overwhelmed and maybe you're judging yourself a bit. Yeah. Yeah. What do you want them to remember most?

I want them to remember that we three sat here and went through one drawer within 10 minutes and we didn't do the work you did. And you probably had the same feeling that they're having right now that you thought, oh my gosh, this drawer looks awful. I can't believe the way it looks. It's so horrible. I can't do this. You did it. Not us. We just talked you through it. Yeah. And they can do it too. And it is not— this is not meant to be overwhelming. It is meant to be freeing. It is meant to relieve yourself of the, the mental clutter.

It's not one more thing to do. It's, it's the way to save yourself and to give yourself what you deserve.

And it's self-care. It is self-care. It is wellness. It's mental wellness. It is. And physical wellness.

It's all. It's so valuable and there's the payback. The payoff is so much greater than the, than the energy that's required to do it. Yep. And don't tie being disorganized with your self-worth. Like, don't do that. Yeah. You are busy. There are so many competing things for your time, energy, and your attention. And this is only an opportunity to help yourself. That's it. It's not another chore. It's truly an opportunity.

Yeah, that's absolutely— Joanna and Cleo, what are your parting words?

My parting words would be to just start. You know, you, you can't, you can't finish anything if you don't start it. And even if you start super small, I think that it's just doing something and all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, I feel like I can tackle this, I can do it. But you, you won't get that feeling if you don't start at at all. So just start.

I would just say the edit is free and you can— you get out whatever you put in. And so if you have 5 minutes, you will edit for 5 minutes, and if you have an hour, edit for an hour. But that is so powerful and it gives you such a lift, and it will carry you through all the other parts of your house. If you can start with something that's for you, that way you can see how you maintain it yourself. I sometimes think that gives you more confidence to go for the next thing, whereas if you do it a big space that's a very shared space, it can be very frustrating when people aren't following your systems right away. So if you did your, your own bathroom drawer first, yeah, that is really powerful cuz you're like, this is mine and I'm taking care of it myself. And you have the ownership over it. And so you can see it through and you can see the maintenance through and then start implementing it through other drawers where it's shared spaces.

Well, I haven't even started and I already feel better. You did, we did. I, I agree. And I, I cannot thank you Thank you.

Oh gosh, thank you.

I mean it. I cannot thank you enough. I love that 99.9% of everything that you said I can do. Mm-hmm. It's not gonna take a lot of time. In fact, it's gonna take less time, the amount of time that I am wasting and the person who's listening is wasting, racing around, feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. And trying to find the things you can't find and wasting money. And you did something really important. You not only gave us the simple steps, but you infused it with such belief and enthusiasm that I know that this will work if I actually do it. It will.

That's why you just have to start.

Well, here's what I want to tell you. You're fantastic. Well, thank you.

Awesome.

And what I appreciate most about this conversation is it wasn't about editing or organizing or decluttering at all. You gave us a roadmap to have the single most powerful resources that we have in our life, which is energy and time back. Yeah. And I really understand what you mean now that we've had this conversation, that this is not one more thing that you need to add to your to-do list. Right. This is your way to get time back. Yeah. To get peace back. And I cannot thank you enough for hopping on a plane and for being here and for doing this work and teaching us how to do this for free.

Well, we are so honored and so happy to be here. What an honor. And we are coming to Vermont. Yeah, we sure are. So we sure are. Ready or not, here we come. I'm gonna be—

I'm gonna go declutter now thinking about that. No, seriously. Thank you. Thank you so much.

This was such a pleasure and such an honor.

I learned so much. Watch it. I'm so excited to go home and edit. That's what I'm gonna do.

I'm so excited for your daily drawer. I know.

Please send us a photo.

I'm gonna take you a photo of it. And in fact, when you do a daily drawer, I want you to post a photo of it and tag The Home Edit.

Please tag The Home Edit. We get so much satisfaction about seeing other people's work and seeing what they create.

Let us celebrate you. Yes. Yes. I love that. So thank you. Thank you. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. And I think you probably started You were gonna get one thing, and now that the conversation's over, I know that you got what I got, which is this deep sense of confidence that yes, you can do this. And I also feel the lift of pressure and shame that I've been putting on myself, like something's wrong with me. This isn't one more thing that you have to do. It's one thing that you get to do and that you can do to get back what you really deserve, which is time and space and to feel good feel good about yourself. So I can't wait to see your photos. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And holy cow, when we edit, we will create a better life and we'll feel better in that life too. All right, I'll see you in the next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank you for watching all the way to the end on YouTube. Didn't you freaking love this. Thank you also for being generous and sharing the gift of these two with people in your life. Heck, if you can't get the people that you're living with to help out, send them this episode and let Clea and Joanna motivate them. Okay, I know you want to watch another episode. This is the episode you're gonna love, and I will welcome you in the moment you hit play.