4D Athletes Podcast Episode 65- Alex Auerbach: How do we create an unfair advantage?

Hello and welcome to episode 65 of the 40 athletes podcast. I'm your co host, Jason Holzer, along with my good buddy, Jimmy Huber. Jimmy, happy Friday to you.

Well, I appreciate that. Happy Friday to you too. And I. I noticed we had decided we're the same color today, so there you go.

Yeah, I figured we should be ready, you know, for Friday. It's a red Friday.

Even though Friday. Oh, geez. Oh, gosh.

Oh, wait, they lost.

Dang it.

I guess. Yeah. Well, anyways, you know, last couple Fridays, it's been on Super Bowl Friday, it's been a Chiefs Friday. But, you know, this year can't be a year every year, I guess. But hey, today though, we got a guy that we're gonna switch to basketball here because he's the Toronto Raptors Director of Player and Personnel Wellness, and he's also a licensed psychologist, as well as he's worked for the University of Arizona and overseen their whole sports psychology program. So we're excited to have Alec Hourbeck on. I don't know about you, man. I know we've had a lot of mental performance coaches on, but I feel like you can always learn something new even though it's similar material.

Well, my sons were excited because they heard the Raptors, so they were like, he works with dinosaurs and Raptors and stuff like that, and he helps them perform the best of their abilities. He's like, I. They like. I want to hear this guy. I want to know about this guy.

Yeah, anytime. And that's why, you know, it's funny, but my son loves the Bengals because the Tiger Stripes, right? And then. And dinosaurs. So, you know, maybe the key for an organization is to get the right mascot so then you can find the right fan base. So tigers and dinosaurs. We're going to bring Alex on here just in a minute, but Alex, welcome and thank you for joining us from. From up north in Canada.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Excited to be with you both. And sorry I left the Raptor dinosaur hoodie at home today. If I. If I would have known that was a fan favorite, I might have brought it out.

Hey, anytime kids are involved and there's dinosaurs, it's a win. So, I mean, you. You could be a fan favorite just by putting. Putting the Raptors hoodie on anything with a dinosaur on it, man.

So.

Well, hey, you know, we're gonna start off here. In a recent article, you mentioned high performance knowledge worker, and that's a term I have, I'm unfamiliar with. What do we. What do we mean by that when a high performance knowledge worker. Can you explain that a little bit?

Sure, I, I mean, first, I want to give some credit to the terminology to a good friend of mine and colleague, Cody Royal, who he and I thought about it a good bit, but Cody was the one who sort of put language to it that we've since adopted. And really what it's about is helping the traditional knowledge worker, whether that's a manager, salesperson, unit leader, any sort of person whose job is really to convey knowledge, communicate and excel and use their expertise to move an organization forward and sort of be this high performance knowledge worker. And the idea is that we can teach people those same high performance skills to help them be better at what they do. The same skills that I use with elite athletes every day would be applicable to your salesperson or to your manager and helping them, you know, be the best when it matters the most. And so what we tried to do is help people lean into that identity of being a high performing knowledge worker or a high performance knowledge worker and think a little bit more about what it means to take care of yourself and, you know, do your best work. And so it maybe lends itself, say, like in the sports space to coaches, right? Where traditionally, you know, old school coaching might look like grinding it out until 1am, sleeping a couple hours on your couch in your office and then getting up at three and trying to go at it again in game planning. And our argument is sort of like the opposite is actually going to help you more, right? Sleep and recovery are critical to peak performance. So is being able to focus, so is social support. And so we're trying to move the needle a little bit and getting people to think of themselves more as high performers and less as just another cog in a wheel or, you know, someone who needs to grind it out to be excellent and sort of flip the narrative a bit around what it really means to be a high performer.

And I can relate to that. Alex. I remember back in the day when I started coaching in college and zoom video editing and that was VHS times, right? You had to slice the VHS and it was like it took so much time to do it and you would have like long nights there, right, getting up early. And for me, I guess my question would be to you on that is like, you talk about old school coaches, getting them a change, maybe the way they think about it, but you mentioned, like, be at your best when your best is needed. How do you get individuals maybe change a perspective on how they look at it instead of grinding it out all the time and then get them to be at their best when they need to be at the best.

So it's a great question, and it's a tough one because I think for people to really get it, they almost have to experiment with it and experience it themselves. And I think a little bit it comes with adopting the identity of trying to be a high performer. And I think for coaches, like, the easiest place to start is to think about the parallel between the coach and the athlete, right? So with our athletes, we do an incredible amount to try to get them to be as elite as they can possibly be. From sleep optimization to nutrition to mental performance to elite coaching to having your own chef, to, you know, special recovery stuff. We prioritize all those things. Not because, you know, the field just is. Is bougie. Like, we prioritize those things because those.

Things really work, right?

Those things are really important. But coaches have. Have been really slow to adopt the. The same principles that we know help athletes be their best. And so I think where I would start is sort of encouraging people to really look at why is it that we have athletes do all of these things? It's because we're trying to put them in a position to be physically and mentally optimized come game time. And there's no reason that a coach shouldn't be trying to be physically and optimally and mentally optimized for game time either, right? I mean, the job of a coach is to make critical decisions under pressure during the game. And if you're not sort of well functioning, like, it's going to be incredibly challenging to do that. So I think a place to start is to see if you can adopt some of the best practices from your athletes. And, you know, the best athletes themselves are those who want to be the best at what they do and go out of their way to take on every challenge they can and optimize for every element of their performance. So if you've watched like Tom Brady's documentary on ESPN or some of the other stuff he's done, I mean, his diet, for example, is incredible. And it's not because he doesn't like other delicious fast foods. It's because he knows that to be the best, he needs to take care of his body. And the same thing would be true for any of us, really, who are trying to be high performing.

And I also want to get back to what you said about grinding it out and how it used to be like it used to be about, hey, you just got to work hard, you just Got to push through. You just got to keep going. And sometimes keeping going, I think now means more of like, taking a step back, not always doing, but resting and recovering. And it's hard to get out of that old mentality of like, go, go, go and stop because you feel like you're. If you're not doing something, you're falling behind. So how do we, how do we, like, learn? Like, hey, resting and, you know, clearing your mind or, you know, finding some space for some hobbies, that kind of stuff is actually healthier and it's going to get you better in the long run. How can we kind of switch some of those, you know, old, old philosophies into more of a modern, of like, you know, getting more balance, getting more in a. In a season, in a cycle?

I think it starts with changing the way that we frame rest and recovery. So I think often we think about rest and recovery or time away from sport, time away from our performance as competing with, right, we look at balance as though it's supposed to be 50, 50 and things have to be equal. And so if we're not spending time in the office, we must be hurting our team. And I think the way really to think about it is this is an investment. This is an investment in your future performance, right? Sleep is an investment, for examp, in your decision making, your heart functioning, your brain functioning, your emotion regulation tomorrow, right? It's about taking care of yourself now so you can be the best you need to be when it matters. And so changing that attitude from being about competing or comparison with others and what other people may or may not be doing, to thinking about investing in yourself, I think is a great place to start for thinking about how you can sort of make that switch. And then again, I think it comes back to kind of experimenting with it yourself, right? We have the data that shows us, like, if you sleep, deprive yourself by a couple hours, your decision making suffers, you're much more emotionally volatile, you can't focus. But the data doesn't seem to always move the needle. And so what I'd say is, like, sleep for eight hours and see how you feel. I mean, I've had someone in the last couple of weeks say, like, hey, I slept more in the last two weeks than I can remember sleeping at all in my MBA career, and I've never felt better. And it's like, great. This is a person who's learning, right, that this little change can make a huge difference. And so for anyone who's sort of wrestling with that you know, I'd encourage you to explore it a little bit because the reality is like all people need rest. Right? The same way that our muscles fatigue and we eventually have to take some time off to recover and grow stronger. Right. People are somewhat similar to that. Right. To get to the best place, you actually do need to rest and recover. And that doesn't always mean, you know, that it's routine or that you have to completely shut down. You know, there are ways to actively rest or actively recover. And sometimes you do have to decide between pushing a little bit more and taking a step back. But those are all fine tuned decisions you can make as you get better at resting. And so in the, in the short term, I would just encourage people to experiment with it and see how you feel. And what I think you'll find is that you do feel better because almost universally everyone who sleeps at rest feels a little bit better. And so, you know, I think that's a good place to start as well. But it's tough because I think in sport like the, and really a lot of high performance spaces, right, there's a comparison element, there's a competitive element, there's a, you know, what are they doing that I'm not doing? But you know, there's some truth to the comparisons. The thief of all joy kind of thinking. And the reality is like sitting here and comparing yourself and what you have to what someone else has is often a great barrier to peak performance. Right. The best performers end up staying focused on their self and their own progressive mastery.

And this would be, when you mentioned that, Alex, I mean that that's a key thing I think like, you know, coaches need to be aware of because I know I've had friends of mine that have, you know, coached at the high level, especially like blue blood programs. I knew one coach, he was coaching and he eventually quit after two years because he had like the coach, the head coach told him, you have to be here when I'm here and you have to stay the whole, you can't leave until I leave. So like, and he'd be in the office doing nothing. Like at times, like I can't, like I said, take care of myself, but I want to get back into that part of it. As you mentioned, like sleep and like when I would be traveling with teams, I'd have, and athletes, we take the phones away, we'd have certain bedtime routines and things like that. What could you recommend? Because sleep is so important. More studies are showing that what could you recommend to individuals? Start implementing in their routines before they go to sleep to help them have like this optimized sleep so they feel more rest and recover when they wake up.

Yeah, that's a great question. And we can come back to the phenomenon you described with your coaching colleagues if you'd like. The desk guarding phenomenon I think is somewhat problematic. But in terms of sleep specifically, I think the best place to start is with a consistent bedtime and a consistent wake time. Sleep is a highly regulated, essentially 24 hour cycle that ebbs and flows as essentially pressure to sleep builds up. Right. So you can draw a parallel kind of to hunger. Right. There's a reason people eat fairly similarly kind of across days. Right. Your body gets used to when it's being fed and not being fed and you start to get hungry based on how much time has elapsed since you last ate. And sleep is really not that much different. You start to get tired as the amount of time between your last sleep and waking up progresses and you build pressure up to sleep. And so I think the simplest way to do it is to start regulating your cycle essentially. So try to go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. Even if you can't fall asleep, it's still helpful to wake up at the same time basically every day. That'll sort of increase the sleep pressure the next day. And slowly you'll figure out that sort of optimal window for yourself in terms of whatever it is, 10pm to 6am, say like you'll find that time by getting up at a consistent time. Other things I would do, like put your phone away, minimize TV and light exposure, you know, cool down the room. Body temperature is a huge factor in our ability to fall asleep. So lowering your body temperature can help you fall asleep more quickly. There's some cool technology out there that can help too. And I think the most important thing is like if you can't sleep, it's not really a license to like get up and run around. Right. I would still relax because there's some benefit to just recovering and resting. So it doesn't always have to be that you're completely knocked out for you to be getting some benefit of rest. And so I'd encourage people to, even if they're having some difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, rest a little bit and give yourself permission to rest. And often that can be enough to send you back to bed.

I kind of want to get into resting during the day, maybe a nap or like you mentioned rest time because even my 5 year old is like he is adamant about not napping. Like, all right, man, like, at least just like lay down and be still for 15, 20 minutes. Like, you know what, maybe he'll listen to you. But what is your recommendation of like a middle of the day rest time? Right. I know Europe does it with their siestas, right? They found, like, it's like, important. So how important could that, like, middle of the day time, even if it's what, 15, 20 minutes, help you re energize, refocus to help you finish out your day? Like, what would you suggest as far as napping? Resting in the middle of the day?

Yeah, I think, you know, it's tough with naps, but in general, like, a little bit of rest is good, right? So there's a natural point in the afternoon for most people where they feel a little bit more fatigued. And at that point, you know, a 20 to 40 minute nap or rest break can be really helpful for future productivity. Obviously, you don't want to, you know, sleep six hours, for example, in the afternoon and mess up the rest of your rhythm. But there is some benefit to an app. And we know that short bouts of rest in the afternoon can enhance performance later on. And we've seen that in professional sport. We've also seen that in spaces where things in the afternoon revolve around decision making. Like some research on judges shows that a little bit of rest improves fairness and decision outcomes. And so there is some benefit to doing that. It does take some practice, like anything else, right. And you want to try to make it a little bit routine and not overdo it. But there is a benefit to a little bit of rest time. And again, the same is true even if you can't fall asleep doing some resting, whether that's meditating or yoga or sitting in the dark and just breathing or listening to calming music, all of those things have similar benefits. So I would strongly encourage a little bit of a break during the day. We know that people can't stay focused for more than really 60 to 90 minutes tops, if they're in a super enthralling project with. We know that people need about three to 15 minutes to recover between blocks of work. So to just keep persisting without taking a break is actively working against your own best performance.

Alex, I know one thing you mentioned was nutrition. And I know there's all these fad diets out there and people are confused, maybe what they should eat, what they should drink and things like that. And you see, like with the San Antonio spurs years back when they started like finding out what the athletes needed right after the game. They'd have like cold pressed juices for them. They would give them certain type of foods for the recovery, like on flights for the next day of games. And I know other NBA teams that kind of followed some of that. What do you recommend, like athletes in general, how they should think about what they're eating, what they're putting in their body because they talk about food can provide energy for you and help you perform better.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a dietitian, so I can't make any recommendations on like specific foods or anything like that. But I think the way that you just talked about it is exactly right. Right. So for me it's again, this is an investment. This is an investment in your body. This is an investment in your health and future performance. This is about making sure that you have the energetic resources you need to perform when it's time to perform. And we know that some foods are better or worse for that. We know that processed foods, for example, are not great for facilitating your body's optimal performance. And so again, I'd encourage, if you want to be the best that you can be optimizing in all of these spaces puts you in the best position to be successful. Right. And at least in my space and in a lot of elite kind of competitive spaces. Right. 1% difference is, is huge at the end of a basketball game or is huge at the end of a season. And so finding those little wins can, can go a really long way.

Now I want to get into that. You said 1% difference. And these high level athletes, sometimes you talked about mental performance. Right. The mental side and you know, and like old school type. We never like when I grew up, there was nothing with the mental performance part. Right. It was all like if somebody struggled, they weren't tough and they were struggling. Anxiety coach be like, I'll give them toughness drills, we'll toughen them up in practice. I'll show them what tough is. Right. And now we're starting to figure out that the mind controls the body. And I feel still feel like it's about what about maybe 2 to 5% on the mental side, about 95, 98 on the physical side. And I know it's starting to move more toward the mental side, but what could you tell, like, you know, coaches and athletes, things to do that could help them with the mental side to get this optimal performance?

Yeah, I mean first I think you're spot on. Right. We, we figured out that the brain controls the body. And what we know is like your brain's primary function is to regulate your body's energy efficiency, right? That's, that's what it's all about. And so if you're not spending time optimizing your brain, you're inevitably not optimizing your body to the, to the best place it could be. And I think, you know, there's some pretty good tried and true kind of mental performance techniques and things out there that, that people can try. And it just really depends on what it is you're, you're after. So some of the things that we know tend to work for people are things like mindfulness meditation. We know that different kinds of journaling can be effective. We know that some reflective practice can be helpful for improving performance. We know things like imagery, self talk, goal setting, you know, those sort of fundamental mental skills can be helpful for some athletes. So it really just depends on what the specific sort of type of performance you're trying to improve is. But there are a few things that, that tend to cut across performers that are helpful. So 1, 1 as I've already mentioned, is mindfulness. You know, we know that mindfulness meditation enhances our ability to focus, to regulate our emotions, improves our ability to deal with conflict. There's a ton of benefits that come from a regular meditation practice. And last I saw, I think the data suggests that essentially 100 minutes is enough to materially move the needle in your brain, which is pretty good ROI in my mind. It takes a lot more than 100 minutes to up your bench press, for example, typically. But if you can get some cognitive benefit from 100 minutes of meditation, I think most people would take that. Similarly, we know, like developing self regulated learning skills helps separate elite athletes from their, you know, somewhat less elite counterparts. So that's figuring out, you know, what you're working on, specifically setting a small goal, evaluating your progress, regularly updating and reflecting, and then, you know, adjusting your goal essentially to make sure that you're continuing to grow. And it sort of falls into that kind of deliberate practice, fear. Um, so there are some things that we know, you know, like that are really helpful. Um, you know, and then there's a couple other kind of tried and true things that matter, you know, so how you frame or appraise different challenges or adversity can, can play a huge factor in whether or not you are successful. Things like that are critical.

What do you do, Alex, when somebody says, hey, okay, meditate for 60 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever it is. But when I get into a game Right. And it's all sudden, there's the pressure of the game, there's a bad call for officials or coaches are getting on me as an athlete or like you said, the coach like official makes a bad call or they're stressing, what do you do maybe in the moment of games to give them techniques, these athletes and coaches to help them be present to handle their emotions in a positive way.

Yeah, great question. I mean, I think in, in the game, hopefully we've already worked on some of the skills you would need. So when that moment comes, I'm not running down there to help with anything. And that's not how I operate. To me, it's kind of like physical training, right. You don't in the middle of the game start doing squats because you realize your jump isn't as explosive as you need it to be. Right. So this is kind of the same thing. We're not in the middle of the game going to disrupt the flow of the game to try to teach a mental skill. Ideally we've done the squats before, we've gotten to the game and so our jump is as explosive as we need it to be. We've done the mental reps, so. So that when we get to the game and we're managing pressure, we know how to handle that. And there are again like some, I think fairly simple but not easy techniques you can implement in those moments. So you know, things like directing your attention or focal cueing can be really helpful. You know, returning to fundamentals. There's some good stuff that we know around, like interpersonal connection can help manage pressure. Right. So reaching out to your teammates and staying connected is one way that we could help people manage stress in those moments, you know, and then I think obviously the more we can stay focused on what it is that we can control and our own individual task in the context of the larger team, the better able we're going to be to manage the pressure that we're encountering at any given moment. And so having sort of an arsenal of tools that you can draw on and a sense of what works well for you when you get into that moment is the most efficient and effective way I think of managing those high pressure, high stakes times.

What about, what about say an athlete's get pulled out of the game? Say it's basketball and I'm on the bench, right? And I coach, I just made some mistakes, coaches got on me and now I gotta reset, right. I gotta get back present because my opportunities maybe gonna come in the next couple minutes. Whatever it might be, is that where maybe they. They breathe, maybe they visualize a little bit what is there simple things they can do while they're on the bench to get them to reset and get back present?

Yeah, I mean, there's some good kind of simple frameworks for like, you know, release, reset, refocus. So like, you know, first is find some active way to release the mistake or release whatever that criticism is. Kind of accept and let go, you know. Then secondly, you might, you know, reset. So that's maybe taking a couple deep breaths and then refocus would be directing your attention back to the task at hand. So if you're on the bench in this circumstance, you know, maybe your. Your job is to be a great teammate at that moment. And so how can you turn your attention back, back to that? I think practices like mindfulness can help with doing some of that. Right. And cultivating a practice of acceptance can be helpful with that. And then I think also, you know, giving yourself permission to deal with mistakes after performance can be helpful. So if you're a player, for example, being criticized by the coach, it's often not super helpful for the player to be sitting there thinking about the mistake they have made while they're on the bench or when they're going back into the game. And so having permission for the player to sort of, okay, I'm going to deal with that after the game. Like, I'm just going to. I'm going to leave that. I'm going to process that more after the game can actually be just a really simple, helpful step to help athletes kind of let it go and move forward, knowing that they're going to come back to it. So it's not that we're not learning from this or not addressing it, it's just that addressing it, unless it's a really specific tactical or technical challenge in the moment, addressing some larger issue in the game is unlikely to be facilitative of great performance.

What do you do with, like, you know, you've been around coaches long enough to know every coach a little bit different in certain things. Sometimes coach will say stuff to athletes and you're like, what the heck? I mean, that that's gonna, like, maybe harm their confidence or take stuff away from it. It's almost sometimes more demeaning. Right. Or do you have conversations with coaches kind of talking about the words they speak, watch what they say to athletes when they're trying to maybe instruct and correct them?

Yes. I mean, I think, you know, this is a hugely important part Of I think the work of a sports psychologist. And I think this is what helps some of the best coaches be great, is the way that they communicate and how they understand motivating their players and getting, getting the most out of their players when they need to. And so I think like a fun example for, for this kind of thing is, you know, most of us have been in significant romantic relationships where we've gotten a text message or a phone call from the person that we care about and they just say, you know, we need to talk. And almost universally, people have an aversive reaction to the statement we need to talk. Right? Because we just predict that doom and gloom is in our future. Right. But that simple exercise illustrates the power of words and the power of words in regulating somebody else's body, right? And that's really what the key is. So for coaches, it's not that, you know, some airy fairy science where we just want you to only say nice things to people. It's that the words that you choose will actually impact how efficiently your players bodies are operating at a real, like, hormonal, biological level. So if you want to put them in a position to be the best that they can be when you need them to be the best that they can be, you'll be really mindful of the words that you use and you'll try to construct your language in a way that facilitates great performance. Now, it's challenging, right? Everyone has a lot on the line in these big competitions. It can be tough to mind our tongue sometimes. And, you know, we all have our own threshold of when we can no longer sort of regulate and keep it in. And that's part of it too. But then comes sort of the repair of the relationship, I think can be a great step to take. But it all starts with, I think, being more keenly aware of how the words we use actually impact the people around us. And appreciating that impact will hopefully push us toward a little bit more facilitative use of language. And the last thing I'll say on this is, unless there's more y' all want to unpack is fear is a really powerful motivator in the incredibly near term. But overall, it is a really, really destructive way of getting people to move forward. Because what happens is people learn to avoid whatever they fear. And so if you're using fear to motivate, eventually the player is going to want to actively avoid you and avoid anything that you have to say. And that's not really the outcome that we want as A coach. And so I would encourage coaches to think about short term versus long term benefits, long term. Most of the time what we want is for our players to learn, execute, be their best. And so in those critical moments when you're thinking about using fear, just pause and make sure that that's really the step that you want to take. Because that is going to have a much longer lasting impact than you think it's going to have in the next 30 seconds and kind of get into.

Like, you know, not just what you say but how you say it.

Right.

Because there's, there's, you could say the same thing, but the way you say it really can have a determine because it's more about the feeling of it.

Right.

So how as we as coaches can maybe self aware of like where we're at about what we're going to say and then kind of get ahead of our words a little bit like, huh, how should I say? That's maybe that that's, you know, demanding but not demeaning, but that's maybe, you know, positive, constructive feedback that's going to help them get better and realize that I'm not trying to like harp at them. I just want the best for them and telling them the truth, but telling it in a way that shows compassion, authenticity, that's not like blatant or that's, you know, like you said, that sets fear. And then we're like, oh man, I don't want to talk to coach because he's just gonna blast me the whole time. So is there a way of like, like a tone we can set with our players, maybe getting to know them a little better, that how we say our words is maybe more impactful than what we say?

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I mean, I'm, I'm a person who believes there's almost nothing that you can't say, but there's a lot that you have to say in a very specific way. And I think to do that, well, you start by giving voice to a lot of the things that you're describing. Right. So one of the things that often happens is coaches just leap right into the criticism. They leap right into whatever it is they want to be different without saying some of what you just said, which is like, I care about you, I want you to be the best that you can be. I'm giving you this feedback because I actually think this will help you grow. And so just couching the feedback as a helpful, caregiving sort of moment can go a really long way. It Requires some interpersonal vulnerability on behalf of the coach. But that also levels the playing field a little bit with your athlete and makes it feel like, okay, like, you're in this with me, right? And that's ultimately sort of the vibe we're trying to create, right? I'm still your coach, I'm still leading you, but we're both together trying to get to your peak performance, right? It's not. I'm just trying to get you to do the best I can because it helps me. Ultimately, we all want the same thing, which is to be our best to win games, to keep growing and developing all of those things. And so I would start with some of that language, right? Like, hey, I really care about you. Here's something I noticed, right? So that's one thing. I would start with the care. The second thing is I would stick with what you observe, right? So stick with the facts. One of the places where we tend to go wrong is we start to get into character criticisms like, oh, he can't do it because he's lazy, or he can't do it because he's dumb, or she can't do it because she ate. Just doesn't work that hard. Like, you don't have any information that supports that most of the time. Like, most of the time, this is just purely your perception of how this person is performing, probably somewhat based on your own sleep deprivation and somewhat based on the fact that you have no way of knowing, like, all the other contextual things are happening for this athlete. So maybe this person is dealing with a family crisis that you know nothing about, right? And so sticking to the observable things will allow you to stay out of some of that dangerous gray area where we often want to go because we want to explain why something is happening, but it's not so important why something is happening in the moment of adjustment, right? What's most important is staying focused on what we want adjusted. Later we can figure out what might have gone on for you. But for now, in the moment of giving the feedback, let's just stick to getting the change that we want. So I would. I would start with those couple of things, I think, in terms of helping coaches kind of give more effective feedback. And then the other element is, like, if you're going to be a highly critical person, I would encourage you to also be a highly active praiser of people. So one thing that often happens is, you know, an athlete will do something well and coach will sort of clap and say, like, well done. And you're like, Cool. Like, what did I do well? What, what about that was well done? Was it the way that I ran to the ball? Was it the way that I passed? Was it where my eyes were? Was it that I was a good teammate? Like, what did you actually like about this? And then when we criticize, we'll get a laundry list of 10 things that we did wrong. And first of all, the human brain can't really hold or process that many things to do better at one time. And second of all, it's incredibly defeating because anytime I do something well, you brush it off and move on. And anytime I do something that you don't like so much, you seem to stick with me on that. And so I would flip that a little bit. If you're going to give some criticism, pick one thing that you want to be improved and build on that, right? It's okay to find ways to grow and help people change, but start with something that's digestible, right? So pick something that this person can actually do something about, something that's within their behavioral control, that's within their sort of range of skill, all those things, and more actively praise the things that they do well. So instead of the well done, it's like, hey, you know, you did X really well, right? You, you shot the three point shot right there really well. Your form was excellent. The way you ran to the spot, moved the defender this way. And so that created this extra space for you to be able to make a great decision between shooting an open shot or passing to another teammate. And the way that you followed through and then stuck around in case you needed to, you know, in case you needed to get your rebound, like, that was really good. You were in the right position at the right time. That kind of active feedback that's more positive is going to be much, much more facilitative of the long term development of the athlete than will sticking on these things that we're not so sure that we like.

Hey, Jason, I know you're going to say something, but I just want to build upon what Alex said on that real quick is, you know, Alex, coaches seem like our egos get in the way, right? We don't like to be criticized, right. But we'll criticize the athletes. But a lot of times when athletes aren't doing what we, what they should do, it's a reflection of us, the coach, and sometimes, you know, we'll deflect it back to the players. Like you said, they're not smart enough, they don't care, they don't want it. But sometimes I think us as coaches, we got to self reflect and be like, am I instructing well enough? Am I explaining it to them that they understand it right? What am I doing that I could be doing better to help them understand as they perform better? So I think it's almost that self reflection at times.

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's what the best coaches are doing. Right. They're not looking for an explanation that lies outside of themselves for why the athletes are performing or executing the way they are. They're looking inside and saying, okay, did I really do everything I could? You know, if player X can't do this specific thing, we need to practice it more, we need to teach it differently. We need to make sure they understand versus they just can't do it. You know, that kind of level of self reflection like you're describing, that sense of ownership, I think is some of what separates the best coaches from the rest of the coaches. And I think the other point you made that I think is really important is when an athlete's performing, I mean, I don't know what sport both of you all played. Jim, I'm guessing you played some basketball, but you know, like when you were on the floor, chances are you almost never did anything on the floor where you actively were. Like, I'm just going to do this to really upset my coach. Like, I really just want to stick it to this guy. Right now. Most of the time we're just out there playing like we're doing the best that we can. And so to assume that the athlete is doing something because of you and is like, you know, blameworthy somehow, like that's totally your ego and spotlight effect. Right. The athlete is not thinking about you nearly as much as you're thinking about you in that moment. And so it might feel like it's a reflection of you, and to a degree it might be. But I'd also encourage you to try to like step out of that a little bit and think about what the real experience of the athlete is. Because more likely than not, they weren't out there doing that just to try to stick it to you.

You know, Alex, every, every team's looking for an advantage, right? They're always trying to find, like, what's the advantage that we have, whether in the, in the league or against another team. You name it and you had, you have talk about and creating an unfair advantage which might be a little controversial to most people. Like, because everybody wants to be on a level playing field, right? Equal, you name it. But what is this unfair advantage that you talk about that actually is within the confines and the rules of, of still playing on a, on a fair playing surface?

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone's unfair advantage is unique, but to me it's sort of parallel to the like unique selling proposition of a company or of someone who's advertising themselves for a job. Right. We all have kind of signature strengths and things that we can over index on or double down on that would really help us get to the next level. And there's a lot of good data that suggests spending more time cultivating your strengths is much more effective than trying to plug all the holes in your current game or your current weaknesses. And so to me, creating that unfair advantage is really about accentuating and exacerbating the benefits of your strengths rather than really flexing those strengths to get the most out of yourself. And like I said, for everyone, it's a little bit different. But there's nothing outside the rules about figuring out what your own strengths are and really learning to maximize them. It's just a different approach to hyper performance than I think you'll find a lot of people take. You know, for a lot of people, I think it's about filling the gaps or plugging the holes. And there's some merit to that. I mean, there's a reality that we do have to have some kind of baseline level of skill to be able to perform, you know, whether it's a sales pitch or being on the basketball court. But beyond having that sort of baseline level, you'll get much farther focusing on what you do really well than you will focusing on what's not so good.

So let's go to that. The unfair advantage. I'll tell athletes a lot of times, like what do you do to prepare your mind and body before you go into a practice, before you go in the game? So I talk about the great ones have the routines, they got the pre game routines right. To me, that gives them that unfair advantage sometimes. What is it that you do, like when you're working with athletes, like routines that you've seen some of the best have, or how you work with athletes to set pregame routines that get their mind and body ready to, you know, perform at an optimal level?

Yeah, I mean, I think a pregame routine is important because it's all about the preparation and getting your mind in a place where you're ready to perform. And I think, you know, it's kind of idiosyncratic. Right. There's not like one set pregame Routine that's going to work for everyone. The key is really matching. Matching how you want to feel at any given moment before the performance to a specific skill that can help you cultivate that feeling, building up to sort of the moment of the game, right. So for most people, there's sort of this like desire to feel focused but calm, which can be like present or energized or locked in. Right. There's all sorts of language we might use to describe that, but everyone has a different way to getting to that point, right? So for some people, it's like I need to be bouncing off the wall in the locker room listening to death metal for 15 minutes so that I can be as energized as possible. I'm like, that's awesome. Okay, if that's what you need, that's what you need. And for other people, it's like I need to lay with my face under my locker for 10 minutes in complete silence and darkness because that helps me lock in. There's not a right or wrong. It's about finding where you need to be mentally and sort of your own individualized sense of what will help you optimize your performance and then just finding skills that can help you bring that about. And everyone has a. Has a different way to do it. But I do think it's a, it's a place that, you know, elite athletes can, can help themselves sort of separate uniquely. You know, not everyone engages so deliberately in that stuff.

Is that something that you talk to them also? You hear like affirming statements to yourself. Affirmation. Like, you know, you see athletes about, they visualize and they affirm stuff. You know, we talked before about coaches watch what you say to athletes, but you talk to athletes also watch what you say to yourself. Not just that internal critic inside, but what you speak to yourself. Be careful of that. Do you talk to athletes about that as well?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of, you know, work on self talk that's critically important to helping athletes perform. And again, it's not like it's not a one size fits all, right? There's some, some people really are more motivated or more energized by criticism or what people might consider, you know, sort of negative self talk. And, and so to me, the way I think about it is, is it helping or not helping? And whether that's internal statements or statements you're making out loud, like, is this helping you perform better? Is this helping your team perform better? If so, like, we should stick with that. If it's not helping or it's getting in your way of your teammates performing you. We should probably rein that in. And so there is some work on that. And a lot of it's kind of identifying where in the self talk or the external statements do we just go a little bit too extreme and sort of add pressure or stress to ourselves. So if you hear words like should or must or can't, right, you're getting it like the reality of the performance, if that makes sense. So you've got to try to balance the statements and make sure they're helpful.

Yeah, yeah, it does on that. Because it's like with athletes, sometimes I'll tell them, you know, I'll tell, you know, basketball players, like, what do you shoot it? And they'll be like to, to make it. And I'm like, you feel like you have to make it, you have to make it. I was like, you don't have to make it. You shoot it because it's a good shot, it's an open shot. You have the right to shoot it. Right. Because you earn the right. Let the results take care of itself. Because, you know, sometimes shooters, and in an athlete's particular sport to get up tight, they feel like they have to do something. You know, it is. Their body's tight and it doesn't function normally. What they would do, like in a practice or something like that, and that's something I want to kind of get into is when players come to you. I hear this all the time, parents, players. My son doesn't have confidence, my daughter doesn't have confidence. And you deal with athletes and maybe go through slumps and they're struggling. What do you do when somebody comes in? I'm strong with my confidence. I need to be more confident. What do you do to help them to become more confident?

Yeah, so I think it starts with unpacking a little bit. Like, what does I'm not confident mean? Is it, you know, in sport, I think of confidence as sort of like this belief that I have the ability to deliver in this specific moment or execute this specific skill. And so it's really specific, narrow and context dependent. This idea that there's some sort of global lack of confidence I think is real for people's experience. But I think it's a really. It's like trying to eat a whole pie in one sitting. Like, it's just really hard. And so I think I try to find kind of what is the specific area where you think, feel like you're lacking confidence and then what's in the way. And then we do know from research what helps people feel more confident. So we know, like, seeing a peer do something and succeeding is a way that we can start to see, like, oh, I can see myself doing that. Right. We know that having past experiences of success can be huge for future confidence. Right. So being able to reflect on times that you've done this particular skill or thing that you no longer have confidence in and what that felt like can be helpful. You could do imagery to sort of see yourself succeeding. There are a lot of tools you can use to sort of get that confidence back. But I think I'd start with, you know, figuring out, like, what is it that we're really missing here and trying to get really narrow and specific about what it is. Because I think, I think most of the time what happens is, you know, say you're taking a shooter, for example, they've lost confidence in their shooting, and that somehow bleeds into like everything else. And, and what we want to do is restore everything else and then focus on the one thing that we need to focus on versus trying to put everything back together at once.

You know, actually, Alex, we had a question from the audience here too. Shane Scott asks, in a moment or pre game, what types of breath work would you include in your pregame routine during the moment, you name it. To help you maybe get back to neutral center yourself?

Yeah, I mean, I think it depends. So in general, like, the best breath work is the work you practice, right? So if that's, you know, different pattern breathing, if that's mindful breathing, if it's, it's. It's kind of whatever works. I mean, we've. There's been some research that basically suggests that, like, the pattern of breathing doesn't matter so much. What really matters is that there's some practice. And so, you know, I'm, for whatever reason, like, I've become a fan of box breathing. I think it's a simple way to, you know, train your breath and practice that sort of control. Controlled breathing, 4, 7, 8. Breathing can work well, and I think it works pretty well for relaxation and then equal counts breathing. You know, same amount in and same amount out, I think can work too. But for, for making it work in the moment or pregame, really all that matters is that whatever, whatever it is that you're doing, it's something that you've practiced. Right. Trying to adopt a new skill in that moment is going to be really tough. So I'd practice whatever it is you want to have access to. In that moment, so that it becomes a little bit more routine and automatic when you get there.

Is that something I've seen and heard? Like, some coaches or individuals recommend just even doing some box breathing. Like, if you don't have a sports psychologist, you don't have, you know, you don't have the resources for that. And you're the only coach, like, before practice, like, have them sit down, like, almost crisscross applesauce and do a little box breathing. Or it's like, maybe it's in the middle of practice, a break or after practice or whatever it is. And I've seen even some of them do it, like, in a timeout, they'll have their kids sit down, just breathe. Why? We're trying to figure out what we're going to discuss. Is that something you'd recommend maybe coaches to do some more of?

I mean, like, Phil Jackson, I think, was the one that kind of popularized the. The group meditation. And. And, yeah, I mean, look, like, in general, it's like any skill building, right? So if this is a skill that you want your athletes to have, if you want your athletes to be able to regulate themselves during a timeout or under pressure, then it's something you should make time for and something you should encourage under practice. And there's some great, you know, free resources on YouTube. There's some great apps that are out there that exist to help train some of these things. But I think it's like anything, right? You know, you wouldn't. Most coaches, I don't think would, after a timeout, barring a really unique circumstance, come out with some play that they've never installed or practiced before. And so this is kind of the same thing. Like, you wouldn't come out and ask a player to, you know, immediately calm themselves down if you haven't practiced it before. And so building time in to practice those skills can be a helpful way to get your athletes to buy in and to maximize the benefit of that practice.

If a coach is sitting there saying, alex, that's great, but where do I find those resources? I mean, you talked about, like, there's some free resource or apps. What would you recommend? Is there particular resource or an app or something that people ought to check out?

Yeah, I mean, there's some. There's some great stuff out there. So Headspace is a good mindfulness app. YouTube has some box breathing videos you can watch. Calm is a good app. Balance is a good meditation app. There's some different things out there that would all sort of help. It just depends on what it is you're trying to tackle. And then there's good resources on mindfulness. Like UCLA has a great mindfulness research center that you can leverage. So there's some free resources out there too, that would go a long way. And I know there are some apps that are kind of up and coming that people might want to check out. So there's an app coming out in the next couple weeks called the Little Blue Coach that is almost like automated interpersonal chatbot coaching that sort of helps people set small experiments and improve. So that I think is kind of a cool framework, simple, you know, five minutes a day that you can kind of leverage to help get better. So there's stuff like that that's out there too. I'm a little bit less familiar with everything in that space because meditation is been around for a bit longer. But there's definitely stuff out there if you. You search around.

Yeah.

Well, Alex, and we've really enjoyed having you on the show today. And we always finish every episode with the four questions. With 40 athletes, these are quick, lightning round questions that we like to ask every guest to just finalize that little tidbit of knowledge. So our first question is this. In your opinion, what does it mean to win in the game of life?

Oh, great question. I think it's to keep improving. Like keep getting better and getting yourself better.

Sounds simple.

Yeah.

I mean, but also difficult at the same time, right?

Sometimes. Yeah.

That goes back to too. Alex, you're talking about improving, keep improving. But you talked about it like earlier. You mentioned it's sleep, nutrition, the mental side. I mean, these aspects of your life improve in these areas. If you especially want to win in the game of life, of being an optimal performer. Right.

For sure. 100. Oh, there's a lot. It's simple but not easy. I mean, there's a lot of places we can optimize. For sure.

Yeah. And number two, if you could spend time with anyone in sports alive passed away fictional, non fictional, who would you pick and why would you choose them?

Oh, that's a tough one. I wish I could only pick. I wish I could pick more than one person. It's a toss up for me. Do I have to pick one?

You can pick more.

Yeah.

Like, go for it. Sure.

Okay. I probably. I probably go with like, Tom Brady and Michael Jordan. I think understanding two athletes who have been the best ever at what they do and how they got to that point, I think would be an incredible learning experience. And I know we got some, like, kind of glimpses behind the curtain in the last dance and some of the other stuff. But there's nothing like, you know, sitting with another person in front of you and spending unlimited hours unpacking what it is that that would get you to some really deep kind of cool stuff.

That'd be a great time too, because you eat some avocado ice cream and smoke cigars.

That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it could be fun. And if it's the last dance, there might be a bourbon involved. You know, there's different things you get out of it for sure.

Hey, what is the best advice, Alex, you've ever received from a coach you've played for work for?

Man, these questions are great. Yeah, probably the best advice I've gotten is, is to explore outside of your own area and kind of keep trying to add to your arsenal. So I had a really good mentor when I was first coming into sports psychology. His name is Scott Goldman. And he introduced me to this test that he developed and that I've since worked on that's about identifying intelligence in athletes and the sports specific cognitive abilities athletes need to perform at their best. And it was something like, when I started, I had no idea that kind of thing even existed. But seeing how that experience and sticking with that has helped me like learn and grow. And now I can do things that honestly, like when I first thought about becoming a psychologist, I never would have imagined that those would be things I would do, would be doing. You know, that kind of stuff has been incredibly helpful and beneficial in my career. And so I think like, stretch yourself and push yourself outside your own sort of immediate space because you never know what you'll find and you never know how it's going to help you kind of leverage for the future.

If you were kind of organized and putting a team together and these individuals can only have like one characteristic or life skill, what would it be and why?

It's a toss up, but I'll go with discipline. I'm oscillating between discipline and commitment. But I genuinely believe like personality factors I think we get, we pay a lot of attention to them. But I genuinely believe that like you can make most personalities work together. Like it's not really that important, you know, how conscientious or whatever, like some one individual is on your team. But there is sort of an importance around collective conscientiousness or discipline. Right. But it doesn't matter, like if you like showers or baths. Like there's no data that suggests that liking showers or baths is more important. For your athletic performance. And so I'm not going to try to get a bunch of shower takers or bath takers and hope that that sort of gets me to where I need to go. So for me, discipline is about sort of this, like complete and total commitment to your craft. And that means, you know, staying with what you need to do, being diligent and working hard, committing, you know, to the process of improving yourself, staying true to your values, staying consistent with what helps you become a peak performer. I think it's, it's really easy to sort of slip up and unfortunately we've seen like too many times, you know, these really high level, elite athletes in the public eye make a bad decision or do something, you know, horrific and violent and it ends their entire career. And it takes discipline to not do that too. And so that would be what I would go for.

Well, Alex, man, I know you got some, some things like on the on the Cusp coming out pretty soon. Some things you're working on, working people learn more about your work, what you're doing, not just with the Raptors, but, you know, some of the things you're also working on to help, you know, support peak performance in general.

Sure. So I've recently launched a substack with my friend Cody called Unfair Advantage. And so you can check that out. I think it's got some good resources. If you're interested in more of like the sport performance side of what I do, I'd encourage people to check out the athletic intelligence quotient. I think it's one of the tools I use and I think it's really kind of dynamic and unique and really has helped me be a better practitioner, has helped the players and coaches I work with be better performers, learn more efficiently and adapt their game better. So that would be another one I'd encourage. And then I'm on, you know, Mostly Twitter and LinkedIn, alexauerbackphd and happy to connect with anyone. I appreciate the time. You know, it's been fun to talk with you guys.

Yeah, likewise, Alex. Well, hey, you know, best of luck to the rest of the season. You know, go Raptors. And we'll be in touch soon, man.

Awesome. Thank you both so much.

Appreciate it. Take care, bro.

Take care.

Well, you know, Jimmy, our 6th to 12th program, we actually go through two weeks of talking about what does it mean to be a peak performer. And so on top of what Alex just mentioned, you know, where can we find that 40 athletes content? So, so we can level up earlier in life. So whenever they get to somebody like Alex, they got the foundation already in set.

Yeah. They go to 40 athletes. Calm. We have, you know, courses, materials on there that they can see. And then also, like we talked about before, if you, you know, if it's sports programs, sports organization, school, you have multiple athletes, you know, you can book a discovery call, and we can go through how we can partner up with you to. We always say to help your. Your individuals win the game alive.

Well, man, no, I'm not gonna lie to you, man. I feel like I won the game a lot today because I. Alex helped me get better. And that's. That's his definition was I figure out how to get better every day.

That's what I love about this. We do a podcast, right? And we're. We're working a little bit, but it's almost like we're not working. We're actually learning and growing. So when you have people like Alex come on that or experts in their profession and helping individuals go that next level, and then we get to listen to it, we get the information helps us go to that next level. So it's awesome to be able to do well.

Yeah. Jimmy, have a great rest of your day and we'll talk soon.

Take care. Our buddy.