Alex Auerbach - Wellness and Competition

Welcome to Unleash the Gentleman where we incorporate emotional awareness into our definition of masculinity. Exploring men's mental health through the lens of our guest stories. Discover how embracing emotions leads to genuine masculine strength. All right, welcome back to Unleash the Gentleman. This is the tenth episode, so we're really starting to move. Today's guest is Alex Auerbach. Alex, from what I know of Alex is a attentive listener, somebody who's focus on the people he's talking to, on the problems he's dealing with in a present and like mindful way. And he is a performance psychologist. Excuse me, but Alex does come from a competitive background dealing with competitive sports and coaching world. And I guess we'll just start it right there. What is the, how does it interact? Like moving from the coaching, the competitive side of sports into the wellness out of sports. What's the movement like there?

Interesting question. And first, I mean, Congrats on episode 10. Very cool. That's a milestone. So, you know, that's, that's pretty neat, man. Yeah, I mean, you know, at its core, I actually think wellness sort of fits the competitive nature of sports well. Right. I mean, fundamentally, I don't believe you can perform at your highest if you're not well. If you take, you know, my most recent sporting world in basketball, for example, like you can run up and down a court on a torn ACL a couple times, but you're not going to play an 82 game season with a torn ACL. And same thing is sort of true with mental health, right, or mental well being. You know, you can get through a few games here or there, but you're not going to be anywhere near your best if you're struggling. And so, you know, working on your well being can help you be a more effective competitor, can help you win, can help you perform better. My personal transition was really around finding where I felt I got the most energy. And so as much as I enjoyed the technical, tactical side of coaching, I was a American football coach for a few years. What really stuck with me and I think part of what made me at least half decent at it. I don't think I was a very good coach per se, but was all right. I think a big part of that was the relationships with athletes, many of whom I still keep in touch with today. And that because that was so central to what I felt was important, that was really what I went seeking when I worked to become a performance psychologist was a chance to spend more time doing the things that I felt I was uniquely capable of doing well, which is like you mentioned, listening, leveraging science to help people perform better, generally working on, well being and working on a set of problems that for me was more personally moving than the X's and O's. And so it was a fairly natural transition in that regard because it was where my passion lies. But it fundamentally doesn't cut against, in my view, being a competitor or going after winning. It kind of is like synergistic in that way.

So how do you define com. Competitiveness or competing?

So can I give you a nerdy answer? Is that, is that okay?

I'm all for nerdy answers.

Okay, cool. So I mean, in American and generally western culture, what we've turned the word compete into is really compete against. But the Latin origin of compete is to strive with. And so a lot of the way I view competing is one to compete with yourself, right? To figure out how you become better than the you that you were yesterday, but to strive with the other people, right? That's part of what makes sports special is like you as a team are striving together to win regardless of who the opponent is, right? There's always this driving together element that gets overlooked when we think about the people playing across from us. And so I think if you're focused on getting better and better yourself and improving your overall well being, improving your performance, striving against your own benchmark, that to me is what competitiveness is really about.

Is that, is that, I guess, coming up as a coach, like a sports coach, was that something that was preached to you at all, that kind of definition of competitiveness? Or is it, or is it just like the rah rah us against them, let's go defeat that kind of thing.

I think coaches in generally are wired for the rah rah, let's, you know, try to murder the enemy, so to speak. But there are, there are pros and cons to that approach, right? I mean, the, the pro is like there is some good psychology and psychological science around creating like an us versus them mentality. You know, the drawback is that's often fairly shallow, right? Especially in pro sports. Like these guys are all friends, you know, so like we can, we can all pretend like when they're playing they hate each other and some guys can really get into that. But by and large, like, you know, you see it on when you watch games on tv, right? They're talking to each other while they're shooting free throws and stuff. It's not like some, some deep, you know, there's there's a real enemy over there. And so I think it ends up working more effectively in the long term to think about being better than yourself yesterday than it does think about being better than the opponent today. And I think I stumbled on that as I was really trying to figure out, like, honestly, what sustains people's motivation over time, you know, And I think there is a world where you can stay fairly motivated over time by focusing on who you're competing against. But I don't think you can be focused and motivated for a really long period of time, like a Michael Jordan or a Derek Jeter or Tiger woods, focusing on the ever rotating bench of people across from you and trying to find something about each guy that you end up competing with. Like, I think there has to be an inherent element of trying to be the best that you can be, and that's the competing with yourself that you've got to find.

So I don't know, I guess with my. My approach to myself is kind of follows along those lines, like, trying to create spaces where I can move forward incrementally and get better that way, as opposed to, like, trying to fight the wars around me, if that makes any sense. But it's. It's a process to get to that. I guess we're not geared to do that anyway, and we're not really taught that. Growing up, it's kind of. Everything is pretty competitive, whether it's grades or sports or families, even, like, siblings. Did you. Was this, I guess, shift in perspective and how you approach the people outside of you also was, like, representative of something that was going on internally as well.

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I definitely resonate with what you're talking about, about like, you know, having been socialized, I think, to like, compete against people a bit more. You know, I think for me, probably where that shift happened, and I don't. I don't know that I could, like, pinpoint it exactly, but I think somewhere in the last four years, I sort of hit a point where I was like, I think I'm, like, good. You know, Like, I think. I think I'm like, good, good at what I do. Like, I'm a caring person. Like, those sorts of things resonated. And I think, you know, I can think of little moments or milestones along the way where some of that mindset shifted for me where it was less about the other people and more about myself. And I think what you realize is you spend, you know, time in elite sport, but also just time developing as a psychologist and Going through all those things, time as a coach is like, ultimately, it really doesn't matter much what everyone else is doing. And comparing yourself to that is literally never going to help you get where you want to go. You know, like, it can be good to use someone else as a role model to maybe, like, strive to be, you know, develop some of their qualities and some of those things. But for any of us, I mean, even in pro sports, like, there's always an athlete that makes more money than you. There's always an athlete that's better than you or more talented or younger or newer or whatever, right? Like, and so living in a world where that's your focus, even though that's the way a lot of us have been socialized, I think is just going to rob you of the opportunity to find real joy and meaning and getting better and better yourself. And so I think as I started to, like, tune into that and then actually have some experiences where I'm like, yeah, that seems right. Like, I am better at this than I was a month ago or two months ago or a year ago, whatever. And finding the reward in that, then it became much easier to kind of, like, hold on to that. And really, then I'm not a preacher, so I won't preach that, but, like, try to train that in the people that I work with.

So that's interesting, because a lot of the time, I guess a lot of, like, there's a lot of buzz around people. You're good enough, and, And. And, like, your experience is valid and, like, being in the present and understanding that you're good enough here, but you're. You're also saying something slightly different than that. Like, you. You're experiencing that now, but you challenged yourself enough that you were able to find that. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

I mean, I don't know that I'm a good role model, but I can tell you how I've lived, which is, like, I think I try to live about 75% in the present and 25% in the future. And I can't say that that's, like, a good way of existing, you know, Like, I certainly have things that keep me up at night. I'm probably, like, wired a little hotter than most people. Not in an angry sense, but in, like, a. You know, can. Can be, like, in my head. Um, but I think that has helped me figure out, like, how to be good at what I'm doing and, like, see around corners and try to learn and develop and build things. Now that will help Me in the future and those kinds of things.

And.

And so, you know, one is like, I think it was really hard. It was hard for me personally. Let's say it was hard for me personally to like, inherently believe, like, oh, I'm going to be good as a coach or I'm going to be good as a psychologist, or I am good at those things. I had to, like, prove it right or prove it to myself. And you just do that over time. And I think it's okay to have some doubt or not have that confidence at some moments in the present. Like, that that's good information that can kind of fuel some of that. And so it doesn't mean experiences are invalid or all those things. What it does mean is like, I think everyone has, like, general worth as a person, right? So that shouldn't be questioned. But as a performer and as someone who's like, trying to execute something, well, I do think there are parts of that that you can't always just pretend or will your way into existence in the present that you have to, like, earn and then kind of keep earning and keep building over time. Hopefully that made sense.

No, I love that because I was just talking in our last episode. It's always weird because for me it's a conversation, but for people listening, it's an episode. But I was talking to a guy, Ryan Burkholder, and we were talking about practice. And like, there's that. When you start something, there's that inherent, like, disbelief in yourself. You can't. You can't know you're going to be good at something until you've tried it. And there's that point where, okay, but you have to give yourself that space to actually gain that perspective where that's confidence or that's trust in yourself or it's belief in yourself or it's showing yourself that you can do something, however that is. So I really. I like that actually way of conceptualizing it. How important is for, I guess, for pro athletes in specific, but not necessarily pro athletes, just athletes in general. How important is it to preach that purpose and meaning and that the. The value piece, like, of. Of the individuals?

I think honestly, like, most people kind of struggle with figuring those. Those things out, like their. Their own personal purpose or. Or meaning. And in general, I've tried to, like, move away from purpose as a motivator. Values are a little bit broader and more flexible and kind of help you, like, choose at a given moment. And I think purpose is something that can sort of be like, misperceived. As a destination or can be like thwarted, right? If your purpose is to like, help as many people as possible, but you're stuck in a dead end job and you can't get out, like you're going to feel much more helpless than you would if your values were aligned around helping people. And you could just figure out how to do that with the circumstances you were in. So I try to help, you know, every athlete, I think, can benefit from doing that kind of work and uncovering some of those things, you know. And then I think, I do think it's important to make meaning of the experiences that we have right through processing them or thinking a bit more deeply about like where we are and where we're going. Because people tend to feel good when they're making sense of things. And I think that that's also useful. And you'd be surprised that the number of athletes, I was talking to a group of coaches in the SEC yesterday and you'd be surprised at the number of athletes who have never really been asked what their own values are or what they're after because they've come through a system where like, and you know, you know this from kind of, you know, either being an athlete or being around sports. Right. Like teams have values. Most of the times those values came from a coach, you know, they didn't come from the players themselves. And then these players have had 10 coaches, 15 coaches, 20 coaches. So 20 sets of values that they've been supposed to follow and supposed to internalize and supposed to like adopt as their own purpose and never pause to been like, no one's asked really, you know, what do you care about? What are your values? How do you make sense of this? What are you really after? Because they're trying so hard to get the team front and center versus the individual. But like, there's other ways to do that that I think are maybe more effective. And so that's a big part of my work because I think it does help sustain kind of engagement and performance over time.

So that's, that's what, like reframing the individual value system or, or, or giving, giving that structure even to the athletes individually. That's. Is that what you mean?

So what I mean, I guess is like, I think, you know, I'll just use myself as an example, right. Like when I came up in teams, you know, my, my coaches would have values like, you know, hard work, respect and discipline. And you're like, okay, cool. Like in general, I agree that those are useful principles, but like, that doesn't necessarily define me or like what I really care about. So of course I care about working hard, but like my idea of hard work and your idea of hard work might be different. And if you don't ask me what hard work means to me, and you only evaluate me based on your own understanding of hard work, then we're going to live in a world with like a lot of disconnect where you think I'm working hard because I'm doing it to your way and I don't think I'm working hard because I'm doing it your way, but not my way or vice versa. And then I'm probably have another set of values that guide me outside of these three that you've given to me. And so it doesn't mean that both can't coexist. Obviously, like I have my own values and I bring them to the team. But I think coaches don't often ask athletes like what is it that you actually care about? How do you want to be remembered as an athlete? What are your values that motivate and drive you? What's your why behind playing? Even though I don't really enjoy personally the what's your why concept, you know, like asking those questions helps uncover how to best motivate and work with an individual athlete. And then in an ideal world, you're connecting an athlete's individual values back to the team values. Right. So that you can help help them see themselves as part of the larger unit, but also recognize their individuality in the work that they're doing. And that's. So that's how I think about it. That's the way I do it. I'm not saying was just my way.

No, no, I'm fine with you being right. That's okay. What's, what's wrong with the what's the why question?

I don't know if we have time for all this, but I mean, I mean like fundamentally, like I just don't think it's actually all that insightful. Right. So like you know, if you've had a kid or been around a five year old kid, like they just ask you all the time, why? Why? Why? Like humans are inherently motivated to discover the why, but so most of us know sort of at some level like why we're doing what we're doing anyway. Like it's not some big obscure thing that you need to like uncover and that that's all of a sudden going to give you the answer. The second piece is, like I said, I think whys are actually like Fairly constraining. So if your why is all about like, you know, making the biggest impact that you can make, it's like, well, okay, like how and with what tools and what does that even mean? You know, and for some people I'm sure it works, but I think by and large it's actually not very specific. It's a pretty like abstract kind of half hearted way of driving your behavior forward with no clear way of understanding if you're actually moving toward that or not. And I think it just ultimately lacks like the complexity that people have. Right. Like we all have competing goals going on inside of us at any given time. We all have multiple things we're trying to accomplish. If you have one singular why, like it's going to be real hard to do that when you're also trying to like feed your family and take care of your kid and take care of the dog and do all these other things. Like all those actions are in conflict with a why generally. Right. Especially if your why is something big and audacious, like help as many people as you can. Right. And I just don't think it's effective to view it that way. Right. To see like feeding your dog as antithetical to reaching your why is kind of like pointless, you know, but if you really get into it, I think that's like, that's the limitation of looking at something super narrowly is you start to see where that kind of thing breaks down. In addition to the fact that I just don't think it's that novel of a concept.

It's funny because when I watch sports, because I haven't been part of like organized sports for a long time, but when I watch sports now and I see teams with, you know, there's the less talented players and more talented players, they're the, they're the grinder types or the guys that basketball block shots or in hockey, you know, or more defensive minded, whatever it is. But you see like, and they all have a role and it's just I'm, I'm always wondering how I guess what gets those guys at the bottom, if you want to call it that, to buy into their role as that guy. Like what, what do you see being the driving force behind engaging those guys in the team pursuit when they're clearly not necessarily from the outsider perspective, at least the ones that are driving wins.

Yeah. So I mean the research on this is really about kind of connecting individual goals and what are called self transcendent goals together. Right. And the idea is that like, you know, we Often talk about it like people need to sort of like give themselves up for the team, right? You need to make your individual sacrifice for the greater good. But people don't do that. You know, like, that's just not. It's not really human nature to give up your own interests and then, you know, give yourself over to a team, especially if you're, you know, at the bottom of the bench and maybe not going to be on the team next year. Like, why would you forego your individual interest to do that? Right? And so the reality is you want to connect the two, right? And so there are lots of things to do to get an athlete to buy into their role, but some of the basic things are, you know, helping them actually connect the dots between what they do and how it contributes to winning. Right. So even if you're a practice squad player, for example, like how hard you practice in practice does directly correlate to how well one of your teammates plays during a game. And like, your role can or could or could hurt how well that happens based on how well you do your job. Similarly, you know, when you look at it, I mean, most athletes in general are compensated for executing their role well. And most teams will keep a player who does a good job at whatever it is that they're doing as long as it's contributing to winning. And I think where a lot of times that breaks down is the athlete assumes that because they're not playing, they're not contributing. And that's just again, a narrow way of looking at it. So if you can connect your individual goal, which is often, you know, more playing time, with the team goal, which is win games, then you can help them see like, okay, well, how hard I practice or what I do today connects to that winning games goal. And if I practice hard, coach is going to be more likely to put me in. That's my individual goal. So, okay, now there's a link between the two. We can start to keep you engaged in that, but if we don't consciously connect those dots, it's a missed opportunity.

So as a non athlete working in that system, are you, are you impacted by that kind of conflict at all? Or is it, or is your focus very clear and obvious?

I mean, my view of my role is it's my job to bring my skill set to bear on the direction and goal of the organization, which is often win a championship. And so ultimately, like, I'm not really that important. And what I mean by that is, like, I'm not on the floor shooting the ball right so, you know, what, what I think in the way I work is, you know, can impact for good or impact for bad, but, like, ultimately is going to have, you know, a nominal impact on game performance. And so to that end, I think it's better for me to align with the larger organization's mission of winning. But that doesn't have to be in conflict with an individual player's mission of more playing time. Right. I can just help them connect the dots, just like I described. And so, you know, I think where it gets complicated as an employee is like, if you have your own individual goals to do something that conflict with the organization's goals. Um, but I try. I try to just avoid that, and that helps mitigate that kind of conflict, right? Where we're all, ideally, we're all pulling in the same direction with whatever tools that we have and with our unique skill set to contribute. And even if I only contribute, you know, 1 or 2%, I mean, that's enough to win a few games over the course of a season. People shouldn't underestimate that. And so the more you can, like, get the most out of that 1 to 2% by helping the individual athletes, helping the team, helping the organization, the better you can be.

So what, what, what are the things that could come up that could conflict? Like as a performance consultant, somebody who's working, I guess, with the wellness of the individuals within the organization, specifically the athletes, what could come up that could conflict with the goals of a. Of a team? For the. For the individuals?

Yeah. I mean, I think probably the obvious ones are like, you know, when a player doesn't want to be there anymore, you know, then you're in a situation where you're trying to honor, kind of like the individual player doesn't want to be a part of this. But also, it's not that simple, right? There's contracts and all these other things at play. So, like, how do you keep someone engaged when they don't really want to be there? How do you keep them involved when they'd rather be on a beach or with another team or don't care? So I think that can be a conflict. You know, obviously there's some nature. Parts of my work are confidential, so there could be conflicts that emerge around, like, asymmetry of information. Right. Maybe I know something that other people don't know and they feel like they should know or want to know because they believe it would help them. That can create a little bit of conflict. But it's not, honestly, with time and experience, becomes just A bit easier to manage. It's not pleasant, but it's part of it. I'm trying to think what else would be main conflicts. I mean, then I think maybe the third kind of related to the first would be if a player just doesn't necessarily buy into the concept of team, which I think in basketball I think is possible because it is, it's both a team and an individual sport. Right. Like, you know, unlike football for example, basketball does have plays that literally involve everybody getting out of the way except one guy with the ball, you know, and so like you can see moments of individualism. Kind of like baseball, right, where there's like, look, it's a team, but also there's just one guy at bat at a time. If that person really doesn't want to participate in the rest of the system with the team, that can also create a conflict.

Does that create a conflict for you or that's just like another challenge in your own job? Like does that create, I guess internal struggle between you and your organization, your system that you're working in?

No, not for me personally probably. If you're looking for conflicts between me and my organization, I think probably those conflicts are all just around like philosophical things, right? Like time spent resting in recovery versus time spent practicing, time spent on things like wellness and well, being worse, time spent, you know, not at the facility. Differences in, you know, the best way to approach working with a particular athlete. But I think again, like a lot of those things can be resolved with a focus on what's best for the team and kind of the collective good, good versus being right. Which I think is often where a lot of that conflict stems from is people like want to be correct versus do what's right and those are a little bit different.

So it's kind of interesting because like the, I guess you do a good job of managing your own internal expectations so that those like internal struggles don't pop up as much in your day to day where you're finding like if I keep my, if I keep the focus on what I'm trying to do here, which is trying to be part of building a team, well then there's going to be a way to resolve this as opposed to if I think that my approach is right, then there's going to be conflict. Is that right?

I think so. Like, I mean, look, obviously I have my views of what I think is like the right way to do it. But for me, you know, what motivates me personally is like building a world class system for health and high Performance, Performance for the best performers in the world. Like, that's what I'm trying to accomplish. And so I have my ideas about the way to do that. But like anything, there are constraints, right? It's not like unlimited budget to build, you know, a 15 story wellness facility right outside. You know, like, there's, there's lots of stuff that I can't do that in my mind would be related to that, that goal. And so how I manage that is like, that's what I view my role as or my purpose with the team. It's not my team, if that makes sense.

Right.

Like it's, it's borrowed, it's rented. Right. Like there's a president, there's an owner, there's a head coach, there's a gm. There's a lot of people who are doing things that are, quite frankly, like, much more impactful on the overall outcome of the organization than what I'm doing. Right. Like, and there's some really interesting research on this. For example, like when teams change head coaches, very rarely does their winning percentage change meaningfully. But when teams change players, their winning percentage changes considerably. And it just shows you that, like, look, if I'm not actually the one, like designing the plays, calling the plays, doing stuff that close to the floor, the odds that what I'm doing are going to meaningfully change the whole course of a season are fairly low. So what's in my control? What's in my control is doing my job the best I can and supporting these other people who can make a much bigger impact, leveraging my skills to help them be the best that they can be so that we can all win. That's how I feel like I can make a difference. And so, yes, for me, that does resolve a lot of like, the conflicts or perceived potential conflicts because it's trying to do the best I can with what I have versus trying to do it my way or no way, uh, which is where I think people can go wrong.

So do you get a sense of, do you get a sense of fulfillment out of doing your job?

Yeah, I mean, look, I, I, my sense of fulfillment honestly doesn't derive from work, which can be both good or bad. Right. Like, I, I think my sense of fulfillment comes from a sense that I've made progress somewhere. Um, so I think, you know, it's not necessarily like, are we doing this perfectly? But it's like, you know, did I leave it better than I found it? Kind of thing that brings me some sense of fulfillment. I get fulfillment from building things so from like building a program, starting something new, trying, experimenting, obviously failing, like, those things I think are valuable. And then I derive, you know, most of my fulfillment from my family and from stuff kind of outside of work. Where are the other aspects of my identity that I think are like, fundamentally more important to me personally? Even though I love what I do and really enjoy the time I get to spend with, you know, it's been incredible spending time with high level athletes and high level people, really smart people, all day. But if you let it, I think if you let it like consume you, that ends up being a pretty tough life.

Other pieces of. Are there things you've learned about yourself in being a family man that influence the way that you work or vice versa?

Probably the biggest thing is like remembering that everyone was once a little kid. And I know that sounds like kind of weird.

No, I love that.

You know, I think like, when, when we all in general, like when you show up to work, right, you like, you think of other people. You think of like, oh, who do you like? Or who do you gel with? Or who, like, maybe don't you gel with? And who's kind of oppositional and like, who's your boss and what's the problem here? And what about this person? And like, is everyone doing their job? Like, all these kinds of things that like, eat up an organizational culture, right? Like evaluating and judging other people. And of course, in some roles that's like part and parcel of what you're doing, right? Like if you're the CEO of a company, you're going to have some evaluating other people that are like, inherent in the work that you do. But we often let that kind of cloud, like the very real fact that at one point this was like, some still is and was someone's like, little kid, right, who like grew this way and behaves this way because they have a really rich model of the world that suggests this is the way to behave. Not because they're like some flawed or inherently bad person, but like, this is what their sequence of life events and learnings led them to do. Doesn't mean they can't change. Doesn't mean they don't have a responsibility to change. But we often overlook that part because we're so focused on how they're not meeting our needs or not performing or not helping us reach our goals right now. And so I think that has been like, particularly helpful. And I would say the other thing is recognizing that no matter how sports is notorious for this, and I also think this is problematic and Other businesses do this too. No matter how much you pretend, work will never be your family. Sports people get fired all the time. You don't trade your brother. It like doesn't happen, right? It's just not part of it. You're not on a four year contract with your dad. Like these things are just not real. And so we don't need to pretend that this is a family. Like it's actually okay for this to be business. It's okay for this to be a job. It doesn't mean that people don't care or don't care about each other or don't want to be a part of the team. And I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment when you talk about it like family, as though that's actually like the gold standard. For one, like a lot of families are screwed up. Right. And for two, it's just a terrible non equal metaphor. Right? Like this is not how it works. And people feel that, like people know that that's not the case. And so I think if you can put those that together also it helps me personally sort of recognize and see things for what it is. Doesn't mean I don't really like the people I work with, care about them, deeply, invest in them, but it does mean that like, I'm not naive to the realities that I could get fired or traded or cut, you know, just like anybody else.

So you're not, it's like, it's not, it's not to disrespect the people around you or to undervalue the relationships you have. It's just simply to say this is not family. Let's just call it what it is. This is, this is business. This is where you work and this isn't where you should be finding your family relationships.

Right? I think that's exactly right. And I think people actually do much better with honesty. Right. So one of the things that happens is like you try to create this illusion of family because you believe it'll help everyone stick together. And then what ends up happening is like it doesn't ever feel like that. Like no one, you know, no coach can ever like fully replace your parents, for example. Right. Or your teammates aren't going to replace your siblings. So people sort of like recognize that that's not real. And it's sort of like, I think it's just an unhelpful way to think about it because it's not grounded in reality. But that doesn't mean like don't care or don't invest or don't try to build healthy relationships. It just means you don't have to go so far one way that now you call it a family. Like people, most people care about doing a good job. Most people care about doing well at what they do and becoming better at what they do and contributing to something bigger than them. Most people are motivated by a paycheck and some of these other things that come as an inherent part of work. And if you have those things and you treat people with respect and you build a culture that people want to be a part of, you don't have to invent family as the root of that. It can be okay for people to show up, work hard, care about each other, and also go home to their real family.

Yeah, no, I like that. I feel also like the. When you step out of reality, there's also more pressure to achieve something that's not real. Like you, it's unattainable. So you're, you're, you're designing a system that's also unattainable. So the. How are the people within that system even going to respond in a productive way when they're working towards something that they'll never be able to get? Does that make sense? Oh, for sure.

I mean, it's a culture killer. Because there are a few reasons why. One is the reason you're laying out, right, which is like, you know, I see this a lot in, like, sales teams, for example, you set goals that people will never hit because you feel like it's going to motivate them to do more. And the reality is, once they realize they can't hit the goal, they're actually going to try less hard because there's diminishing return for trying hard if you're not going to hit your goal. So that's one reason to not do it. The second is you're setting yourself up directly to undermine exactly what you're preaching the moment you do something like fire or trade someone. Right. Again, if we're really a family and you fire me, how does that work? Like, how do you make sense of that? How do you explain that none of my other family members fired me? Why do you get to fire me? It just sends a conflicting message that ultimately then all people are left with is resolving the cognitive dissonance that just created. And the way people are going to resolve that is by recognizing, huh, we're not actually a family. And maybe you don't actually care about us the way that you say that you do. And now I don't need to Trust you as much. And now I'm going to be a bit more distant. And now I'm going to take care of myself because I just realized you're not going to take care of me even though we're family. Right. So, like, those are the kinds of things to think through as you're building your culture around these sort of pillars. It's like, are you going to be able to live with that? Are you going to be able to do that consistently when you set goals? Are the people actually going to be able to achieve them to maintain that motivation? Like, there's a lot of layers to that that you really got to get into to do it.

Well, it's so interesting you said that also, because I guess in seeing, in seeing what family is not through like a team system, you can also take that over and apply that. Okay, so then what should I do with my family? Like, unless our extreme circumstance, like, should I be cutting off my mom, dad, brother, sister, should I be. Should. Those things aren't necessary. Those shouldn't be givens in family. Like, that shouldn't be. If my dad is not nice to me, I stopped talking to my dad forever. If my mom. You know what I mean? That shouldn't. You can't judge each person's individual case. But I like the, at least the value there. It's like, okay, I know what family does look like. Okay, so maybe we're going to mess up. But I know, I know what that's supposed to look like and I know what I'm shooting for, and I know how secure that space actually is. It is at its purest form, like a tight unit that doesn't get disrupted. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean, obviously, like, it's super hard because. And I don't want to be, like, globally prescriptive, you know, by any stretch. Right. But I, I mean, in general, like, you know, I do think a lot of us are familiar with what, like, a healthy family unit would look like. Even if our family. No family is perfect, obviously. And every family has their challenges and dysfunction. But, you know, by and large, in a healthy family unit, there is that kind of working through conflict. There is, you know, still love in the presence of disagreement. You know, there's these things that just don't often show up at work. And so, yeah, I do think it helps, like, clarify the difference and it's okay for them to be. For them to be different. Work and family. They probably should be.

Yeah, I like that. What the other thing you said about looking at People like everybody was a child at one point. My mom, I once asked my mom, shout out mom. I, I once, I once asked my mom, what did I ask her that? She answered this. She just, she does a really good way with people. Like, she's super. Like, if she's, if she was in sales, she was like the least pushy salesperson, but you'd buy the most whatever from her. You know what I mean? That's, that's who she is. So I just asked her what's, what makes you so comfortable with all people? She's just like, well, everybody was wearing diapers at some point. Like, it's just, it's just like, it's also a nice way to just connect with people because it's just, it's so disarming. It's like, oh, this person's not threatening because of the career, position they have, how much money, power, how mean they seem, how, you know, how distant they are or whatever. It's like we were all in this same position at some point. Now there's obviously going to be more threatening people, less threatening and. But it's just such a nice way of framing how to interact with people, like on a person to person level.

Yeah, that's what it did for me. You know, I think, like, I mean, look, I struggled really a lot early in my career of like, with nervousness around, you know, speaking up to power, like managing relationships with people who, you know, had more status than I did and like, you know, could have helped me, for example. And like, there are relationships that I like, messed up, you know, as a young kid, not necessarily like harmed, but could have done more effectively or could have built more effectively because I was so tuned into like, oh my goodness, like this is this person with this organization. I'm just the lowly coach at this organization. Like, oh my gosh, how do I manage it? And that was a challenge for me for a while. And I, I don't know really 100 when it turned. But I, I do think this like, framing of, yeah, everyone was like, wants a kid and kind of has these like same fundamental needs, right? We all want to be like, liked, loved, cared about, feel like we have a chance to be successful, feel like we can make a difference. Then it makes it so like everyone's kind of on a level playing field. And yeah, there's like, there are of course realities to like, your boss still has power over you. You know, the fact that he was once a kid or she was once a kid doesn't mean, you know, doesn't mean they don't, but it does mean that like probably underneath a lot of the things you see, they have the same fears, needs, desires that you do. Coming from a different angle.

Yeah, yeah. And also like, I find that's also. You can laugh more too. Like things are more, things are more easy. Like there's more of a, there's more lightness to life that way. Like there's. People inherently laugh at certain things and like, I just, it's just so disarming. I really like, I really like that approach. It's really very, very nice. So thanks. Being, being, being mindful of time. I did want to ask you like one more, call it a big question, but I don't know, call it small question, whatever. However you want to describe it.

If.

You were to, outside of the kind of high performer sports world, if you were to translate some skills over and share them with just like, you know, average everyday people who aren't in that kind of elevated skills world, what would those be and how would you kind of frame those that you can apply them to the kind of average person's life?

Sure. So I guess I'll kind of walk you through like the steps I would go through to sort of like make, make your world better. So the first would be, you know, to really curate your environment. Right. So the environment has a pretty big influence on the way we think, feel and behave. And so, you know, ordinary people have the chance to both set up their physical space, but to also set up their relationships as ones that are, you know, supporting their autonomy, supporting their development of mastery and creating a sense of connection. Right. So you want to surround yourself with people who make you feel like you're in charge of your own life. Like you have some agency, like you get to decide, you know, the best way to do things that are important to you. You want to be surrounded by people who are focused on your progress and development and who help you see the way that you've grown and changed. And you want to be surrounded by people who help you feel connected and who you have close relationships with. And community is something we all kind of need to be, you know, healthy and high performing. You know, athletes get that from being on a team. Right. And some of us normal people, we can get that from families or friends or, you know, our local town or church or whatever it is for you. Like those, those things are really important. So that's kind of, you know, foundational element one to, to get right. Because, you know, you, it's sort of cliche Right. But you kind of are like the sum of the people around you, you know, to a degree and there's lots of interesting data on this. But fundamentally like getting that part right is really important. The second step is to build sort of like foundational habits around well being, right? So basic stuff, eat well, sleep well, hydrate, exercise, practice mindfulness, Right. Like, you know, take time to regularly self reflect and build your self awareness. You know, those things like build healthy relationships and social support, those things are kind of like foundational things and habits to just build into your routine that'll allow you to sort of sustain, build toward high performance and sustain some excellence over time. And if you're missing any one of those, like you're, you're leaving some performance and some well being on the table, right? Like if you're not getting full nights of sleep consistently, everyone's going to have nights where they're a little short of the time they need. But like, you know, if you're doing that consistently, you're, you're robbing yourself of opportunities to both feel good and perform better. So some of those foundational habits are pretty critical. The third thing, third step, if you will, would be to then sort of turn to optimizing your mindset for your surroundings, right? So figuring out what your strengths are and how you can use them more regularly, learning to deal with the stressors in your life more effectively and learning to take time to rest and recover and thinking about that as an investment in yourself versus the typical feeling most of us have, which is like, you know, time not working is time away or time to feel guilty or time you're quote unquote not doing something. It's like that's the wrong mindset because it's going to rob you of your chance to recover and be better tomorrow. So those would be some of the kind of foundational things. So what does that look like in terms of skills to practice or things to try? You know, I think obviously the basics, right? Clean up the diet, exercise 30 minutes a day if you can, walk 10,000 steps, spend 20 minutes in nature, do some mindfulness, do some breath work, do some journaling, talk to friends, surround yourself by people who are good, ask for help when you need it. Those are all things that average people like me can do and will help you be better.

I feel like carrying around that mindset and all those tools, you can't be that average.

I think I'm a fairly normal guy, but I don't know. You'll tell me at the end of the Interview. Maybe, Maybe I'm not all that accessible, you know, I mean, just like anyone, right? You, you know, you know, some of the things to do. But, I mean, you still. I still struggle with some of these things, you know, Like, I had, you know, for eight, eight plus years, I had, like, a daily mindfulness habit that, you know, completely fell apart when I had my daughter. And I'm, like, still getting back on the wagon. You know, I have my moments when I don't eat well, sleep well, like last night, you know, like, all those things are part of it, you know, so it's like, it's never perfect. And, yeah, I maybe know what to do a little bit more easily than some people, but it doesn't mean making it happen is, is always easy. And, you know, so my trick has been to figure out, like, what motivates me and what drives me and then leverage that to help myself kind of install some of these tools more regularly.

I like that. Yeah. So when I had. We had a son ten and a half months ago, and also, like, I had these great daily routines, like, my life was just, like, I was doing more. I was doing it in the right way. It felt connected. And then he came, and I love him, but I am picking up the pieces right now. Ten and a half months later, I'm like, all right, let's get this in order, jj. So I, I, I know what you mean. It's like, at the end of the day, because you can plan and you can have all the tools and you can have the mindset and all this stuff, and then there are still life events and things that take place that throw a wrench in it. And it's also, I guess, part of this whole mindset conversation, and building those systems around you and understanding those tools is also probably helps you to generate a more, I don't know, effective response to these times. So it's not just like, yeah, it might fall apart, but at least you have, like, a foundation where you can say, I know how to pick myself up. I know how. It might take me a year or two, or it might take me six months or two weeks, but I have that place that I can start from at least.

Absolutely. And I think that's, that's the beauty of the foundation, right? Is, like, it, it sets the limit for where you can fall when you fall off the wagon. And so the stronger your foundation, the less fall you'll have and the easier it'll be to pick back up.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. All right, Alex, I appreciate your time. I really do. I like this conversation and I appreciate the tools you've shared also. Those are like, I'm going to be, I'm going to listen over this and I'm going to be taking all this information and working with it as well. So I really enjoyed this. I really appreciate it. And I hope maybe at some point in the future we can, we can do it again.

Thanks for having me. And let's do it. And appreciate the opportunity to be a bit philosophical for a bit, too. This was fun.

Cool.

Awesome.