Heavyweight Boxer Overcomes Alcoholism and Becomes a Best-Selling Author! — SECOND ACT: Real Recovery Stories with Michael Smeltzer

Second Act is brought to you by The Last Resort family of programs. The Last Resort is a group of nationally recognized and accredited addiction treatment centers near Austin, Texas, that specialize in treating adults in an environment designed to foster healing, connection, and true recovery. Our mission at The Last Resort is to provide a nurturing and transformative healing experience to individuals and families seeking recovery from the impact of addiction. Welcome to Second Act. I'm Michael Smeltzer, and I am here with a very special guest. I have Mr. Ed Latimore with me. He is a former heavyweight boxer, among many other things, bestselling author, chess player, which is something I definitely am excited to ask him about. Ed, how are you, sir?

I'm in a great mood this morning. Slept 8 uninterrupted hours. I'm a new man. Not new anymore. He's like 15 months now. But you don't— you don't realize how valuable sleep is, man, until you got your first kid. And then you're like, oh, that's— that's what it is.

I'm a father of a 2-year-old, and then I've got— my son will be born any minute now. So I definitely know what you're talking about.

Well, you know what's cool about that? That gap, like the wounds are still fresh. So you remember, I have a friend. Who had a kid, uh, the same day, but same birthday as my son. But their first one was born, uh, he'll be like 8 this year. And so I said to them when I see them, I was like, oh yeah, you guys must like, you know, you're gonna be ready, you know what to do. They're like, that was almost 10 years ago, we don't remember anything. And it was like, it was hard. Like that first— that I tell my friends, I got, I got one friend that just had a kid and another one that's expecting one. I said to both of them, if you just go into it expecting your sleep is going to be disrupted, worst case scenario is you're prepared. Best case is you're pleasantly surprised if you get a, get a good sleeper. And it sounds like one of my friends did get a decent sleeper. We did not. We got, we got a baby that would like taking baths and like this car seat, but he absolutely was a terrible sleeper.

It definitely reshapes your entire life. And the thing is, one kid won't. Doesn't necessarily prepare you for the other kid because that's true. They can be completely different. But I tell you what, man, I'm excited to learn your story. You have so many interesting facts about you just on the preliminary research that I did. So take me back. Let's talk about early Ed Latimore. We're talking about, you know, public housing in Pittsburgh growing up. What was life like for you? Back then?

Um, you know, I always— I would— I describe my childhood as a typical at-risk youth. Like, when you look at the stats that line up that put someone in prison, uh, more often than not, or dooms them to a— we'll say, like, a life of low earning, low potential. I had all the— I had the perfect mix, you know. I grew up in public housing, the projects, the hood, the ghetto, whatever your word is for that. Point is that it's housing that can only be afforded by government subsidy. So it's like the last place you go before you're homeless. And in that environment, a lot of things that come with that, the violence, the drugs, the, the, you know, you imagine the people who have, who can only survive on public housing. There's not a lot of stability either. It's a, it's a very it— when I think about childhood, there are like these spots where I know I must have not— I wasn't always miserable, um, but I have a hard time thinking of moments where I was happy before the age of 14. And 14 is, is an interesting point for me because that's when I got to high school, and because I had such an unhappy time In my life prior to that, I made the decision to enroll in a high school that was completely across town. And I made the decision. My mom couldn't, I mean, I don't know if I would say she couldn't care less, but it was not, you know, if it was up to her, I would've just fed into the neighborhood feeder school like my sister did. And so I went to a school across town. I got into that school. It was like a magnet program. And that completely changed my life. Like, I don't have any friends prior to age 14. And all of my good friends now who I've like been to their wedding and they came to, you know, baby shower and like we're still friends now. I've known them longer than I haven't at this point. They really changed my life and really set— and at that point you don't see how big of a change that environment creates, but because it's a small degree of difference. Like, I started to go home at the end of the day, but I got this new environment, and, and it's— it starts as a small, small deviation, and before, you know, and then it takes a long time, but, but who knows how things would have turned out otherwise. Uh, and, and so, you know, it was a pretty good influence. I tried to, you know, but I, I still had a bunch of old habits, and, uh a bunch of old weaknesses. Like, I technically didn't graduate from high school. I think they sort of— it was a weird place because I'm an intelligent person, you know, on paper. But I just didn't get the tools at all. And by the time I needed to use those tools, it was too late. I liken my academic performance to an athlete who never got put in the right system to learn how to play well. So you got this raw ability, but you can just mess it up and have no idea how to use it. So, uh, there was that. I tried college, and college went as well as one would expect for someone who was not really academically or emotionally ready, as I found out, right? And, and, and failed out, was just kind of petering along and and picked up a bunch of bad habits. But I did start boxing, and that was the thing that, you know, you want to talk about like watershed decisions, things that make a big difference. That was the second big decision that made a difference. Where I went to high school was the first one, and starting to box was the second one.

And what year was this when you originally found boxing?

You know, I was— I know my first fight, I was 23. So, oh man, so whatever, whatever, 5 plus, uh, so 2008, 2007 is around 2008.

Okay, so Facebook's just coming out, you got some social media coming out, you're, you're, uh, you know, coming of age in the '90s and early 2000s, uh, you find boxing. And you had a quote that really interested me and I wanted you to expand on it. You said No one cares what happened to you or what you've been through. No one is coming to save you. And I'm guessing that this part of your life that you're describing to me really fueled the essence of that quote. Am I right?

Well, you know, I've got some relatives that are a bit like, we'll call them— what is it? What is it? Failure to launch or like bad development? Not development, because, you know, despite being like beside being poor and disadvantaged, there's this still— there's still this codependency mentality that develops, and it's, uh, it's not good. I never had that because I absolutely— you know, hate is a strong word, and if I had to pick like a spectrum, like loved, indifferent, hate, I'm very close to hate when I think about the circumstances I grew up in. And I didn't want anything to do with them. So I never let myself view that as an out or point of rescue. So everything was about making sure I figured it out. I would have rather went— and I did, my mom hated it— that I went homeless before I moved home. And then— and I still eventually had to move home, but it took like— I lasted like 3 months and I was like, okay, this— I'll figure it out. And I did figure it out. But that— but that whole idea of like no one's ever coming to save you is really Uh, that really is a— it's something that I, I have etched on me. Like, I can't get rid of it. And, and when you have— every, every perspective has a positive and a negative side of it, uh, depending on how you use it. And there are a lot of negatives that come with that. You, you have a tendency to view your relationships as disposable, interchangeable. Uh, I, I still have difficulty trusting people. Oh, now the people in my life that I— that have been around very long, you know, I trust them. But like, you know, when I— yeah, I always talk about, you know, these scams that people fall for on the internet, are these charlatans. And I look at them and I'm like, yeah, you had a good solid upbringing because I didn't fall for it. I saw right through it. And I'm just like, I'm gonna just sit back But that's what comes with it. There's this hypervigilance, sure. But you— it's very hard to connect. But it makes you— it makes you really, really self-sufficient. And, you know, I developed a lot of self-sufficiency from that, from my entire life. But that period of time was just, just one aspect of it.

Yeah, it sounds like it. And the reason I asked about that quote is because it really resonated with me because the way I interpreted it is playing the victim is not going to help you. Right. And that's something that—

right.

That's something that I— that's something I try to embody every day is that, you know, bad stuff happens to everybody and that— and that's not discounting trauma and all these things that are very real. You know, I don't want to come across like I'm discounting those things. But in my own experience, playing the victim, being like, poor me, poor me, poor me, it doesn't do any good. And it sounds like you found that out at a very young age. And, you know, so you started boxing and it sounds like that was a little bit of a guiding light for you. What was that? What was the development of that like? Like, I know there's the amateur level and then you get to the pro level. And then I'm also curious about what it's like to stand across from another man knowing he's going to try to knock you out. You know, that's not something I'm— I've been in a few fights in my day, but I, you know, I've never been in that level of a situation. So that's got to be intimidating or—

Well, here's the thing. Here's the really cool thing about boxing. And I feel this way about really any system of self-development. With that said, I think combat sports are the pinnacle of self-development that is most accessible to the general population. Or as I like to put it, there's nothing quite like fighting. And to get good at fighting, you have to get good at every part of your being. And look, here's the thing. This is what boxing really helped me out with. Let's look at the ways that you can fail in the sport that have nothing to do with your ability. You cannot be dedicated. You'll never find out how good you can be. Okay, that gets taken out. You have to make a choice. You can either make sure you set your life up to train, or you can make sure you set your life up to do anything else but train, including take advantage of the opportunities to come. Our opportunity is such a— I don't have a better word— distraction. There we go. Including take advantage of the distractions that present themselves as you improve from training. Okay, um, so I like to say that boxing purifies you if you let it. You can, you, you can be a guy that is always partying and drinking and fighting, or you can be a guy that's disciplined and in the gym and studying fighting. I've done both, and I can tell you, you're going to get a lot more out of your life when you are the second type, the guy that is always there training, uh, because there's— because eventually you're going to come up against someone who is a bit more dedicated and disciplined than you. And here's the cool thing about boxing: when you lose, uh, you don't just live to fight another day. You might suffer some serious damage, and that stays with you, not just takes out the sport but affects the rest of your life. And if so, so you have to come into it with that that respect. And once you have that respect, it tends to eliminate a lot of bad habits. And I carried a lot of bad habits as an amateur. I was out drinking, partying. I didn't get sober till I was pro. But I'll tell you, you take a lot of— you can take a lot of beatings that way, and it's not good for you. And then what's the next thing? You know, you got it. You got to be able to sell tickets. Now, as a professional, a lot of people don't know this until you get on TV. You know, you're being paid at the club level. Now things are a little different now because some smart promoters are understanding how to build brands via video or streaming, etc. And now streaming technologies, it's just so accessible. The game is really awesome now. But when I was fighting, it was still at the— it still wasn't quite there when I was, when I was coming up. So as a pro, you got to be able to sell tickets. And, and where I live, the best place to fight to get started is West Virginia, which is about 45 minutes to an hour away where we have to fight. Uh, so you got to be likable enough and charismatic enough to be able to get people to spend money on a ticket and give up a Friday or Saturday night to drive about an hour, an hour, I mean, they come and see you. It's kind of rough, right? And as an amateur, the same dynamics aren't exactly at play, but the general setup is the same. If you want to get more fights, they got to put you on cards. Cards cost money to produce, even if at the amateur level. The difference is you, uh, you don't have to pay the fighters. Instead, you can charge a lower amount for the gate. But the people putting on the fights, they got to like you. People got to fight— want to fight you too. I mean, there's already like dealing with the fear aspect. Some guys just won't want to fight you. But if they're not interested in putting you on because you didn't screw people over or you didn't, you know, jack around too much, you got a bad rep, good luck developing an amateur, getting the experience. So it makes you a better person, you know. And then you got to learn to work well with others. Even though it's a solo sport, you gotta get sparring and practice, and that means being reliable. That means being, being honorable, right? You know, you don't come into the gym with like trying to start a street fight. No, it's the boxing gym. Afterwards it's respect. No, God, we don't dislike each other. Well, I mean, at least not after, you know, because like they sell the fight. Not all that is selling the fight. Some guys need that to fight. They need to dislike their opponent. They, they, they don't have anything else. But, but afterwards, you know, it's all love. I mean, I've got, I've got one I'm, I, I, I'm, I'm a different boxer, so, so we all respect one another. But in terms of like really good friends, I probably made 2 out of the sport, uh, but everybody I'm on, on terms with. Like, I was working on my book and I was able to text some guys that have, you know, fought at a high level on TV, and then they, you know, rap back and forth because of the relationships that we built. And, and my character, if I was an asshole, you know, but outside of the ring, then they'd be like, nah, I'm not helping you, get out of here.

Now you briefly mentioned alcohol and the role that that played in your life. And so I want to put that under a microscope for just a minute. So you're an amateur boxer, you're trying to make it work. Where did alcohol enter the picture? How did you depend on it? Did you depend on it? Where did that come into play?

So, you know, one of the telltale signs of addiction, man, you don't really know you're addicted. You think is recreational stuff. And, um, and then on top of that, so, so alcohol is a sneaky one. We'll start there. Alcohol is a very sneaky addiction because unlike most of the other substances, this one is not only legal, but it is— it's celebrated, it's, it's heavily marketed, it permeates your entire lifestyle, especially in your 20s. I was just looking up research for this to make a point in my newsletter and binge drinking and heavy drinking peaks from the age between 20 and 30. There's a reason for that, because I mean, think about what college is for a lot of people and then you get out, you don't know any other way to socialize and you're still kind of like touching that crowd. It's a crazy place. Okay. So for me, Believe it or not, like a lot of people who had problems with alcohol, I didn't drink in high school. I was the victim of, or the beneficiary of, positive peer pressure. You know, I was seeing all those people I went to school with, the friends I made. Uh, I ended up in a group, you know, we didn't drink, it wasn't our thing, man. I was friends with a bunch of nerdy guys, it was a good time, okay? And alcohol was never at any, any party until we were like 18. That's when I had my first drink, 18. But what it, what it does, and it would have worked for me, is— so you know where I was talking about how, you know, you grow up not really trusting people, you don't have these bonds, whatever. Um, what alcohol does is it, it lets you— it's, it's a low cost of entry to a social circle, right? When you— if you— because look, we need people. Even, even me, who has a natural kind of distrust I recognize the value of relationships, and the best way in to build the feeling of a relationship is with alcohol. It's a built-in social circle. That— what is a bar? A bar is just a bunch of people getting together to drink. That's it. Like, if you strip away, um, if you strip away like anything else, like, because people go to the bar and watch the game, but you can watch the game at home. You can watch the game anyway. You don't need alcohol. But the bars sell out because it's the alcohol. It's the alcohol, it's the alcohol, it's the alcohol. In fact, here in Pennsylvania, we got like certain laws that like, if you make a certain amount of your money from food, then you're qualified as a restaurant and you can't have smoking in there. But they don't— so they allow smoking in bars but not restaurants. It's a really interesting law and a good compromise to people who still insist on smoking. But I say all that to say, uh, I, I never felt like I belonged anywhere growing up. I didn't feel like I belonged. I had friends, but I didn't feel like they really liked me. There's that mistrust, uh, there's my self-esteem as well. So what alcohol lets you do is it gives you that, that quick artificial feeling of bonding. And then, and then because that's how you get it. You don't know any other way to get it. So, you know, you think you gotta— you always gotta drink, always gotta be the party dude, um, not realizing that even, you know, you can do a lot of— like, you can do a lot of damage, like so much. And I think about all the potential relationships I ruined, and I'm just happy I didn't hurt anyone or like physically, or do anything that was irreparable. Because, you know, there's, you know, people like to say a drunk mind is an honest one or something like that, right? Or a drunk mind says what a sober heart is thinking. You know, that's easy to believe at first glance, but having become like a bit of a researcher on this because of how it affected me and a lot of the stuff I wanted to include in my next book about alcoholism, My opinion is completely different. Alcohol changes you. It does not say what is on your mind. It puts— I don't want to say put— it takes something that you know you shouldn't do, right? But like, if me and you are arguing— here's a great example— me and you are arguing and you said the n-word or something like that, right? And let's say that that pissed me off and I wanted to kill you. Well, I know that's a bad idea.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, so I'm not gonna do it. Uh, does that mean I'm a killer at heart? No, that means I'm temporarily angry, but I have my senses about me to not do it. That's a stupid thing. But think about the role that alcohol plays in, in a lot of street fights. That's why the, the role that alcohol plays in sexual assault. That's why Yeah, that's an ugly, that's an ugly part of humanity we, that we don't want to face. So much so that when you look at some of the policies that the colleges try to introduce, one of my favorite stories is when Stanford, um, I think it was that swimmer dude or something like that, uh, there was a sexual assault case, uh, on Stanford that made big news and alcohol was involved. And so one of the things that Stanford tried to do was like, you know, they put up some posters talking about uh, how alcohol affects guys' ability to read cues, women's ability to send cues, how alcohol is metabolized, uh, much slower in women, and how it has a different effect. And, and they, they freaked out. They're like, why don't we just tell guys not to assault instead of telling women not to drink? And I'm like, for the same reason we tell people not to drink and drive. Like, we're not telling them don't run over people. What we're saying is the alcohol is the thing that leads to that behavior. And if we don't tackle that, we don't deal with it, right? So I say all that to say, it makes you a different, awful person. And that's, you know, and you don't realize it. You just think, I used to say shit like, if you don't like me when I'm drunk, you probably wouldn't like me when I was sober. Or, you know, 95% of the problems in my life are caused or exacerbated by alcohol. So that means I'm living a pretty good life, not realizing that— that's some addict shit right there, right? Not realizing that, that my issue is the alcohol. That's what's causing the problem. Uh, I ain't getting away. So, you know, it, it's— it entered because I felt— because it felt like that's how I would get social. Approval, how I would build relationships.

And that's what, that's what deeply ingrains it in you, right? Because you see it as useful. I— how can I be social? How can I face the world without this, without this substance, without this alcohol? And so, so you're doing that, that becomes a part of your, your, uh, I assume daily habits, at least weekly, daily habits. And, and you're, you're trying to get to um, the professional level, right? And you get to the professional level. I know that— I know you have, uh, some military in your background as well. So when did you get sober? How did you get sober? I know that you had to travel, uh, in the military, right? Didn't that play a factor?

So here's what happened, man. Um, I enlisted, and I enlisted because, uh, you know, I'll keep this story Short-ish, I'll give you the abridged version. I realized I didn't have any options in my life other than boxing, and I wanted to give myself more options. I looked at all the degrees, all the employee satisfaction, they all had something to do with a college degree in math. So I said, okay, this is what I'm going to go do. And to get money to go to college, I enlisted in the Army. Okay, so now when you enlist, you got to go to basic training for 10 weeks, and then you go to your military occupational specialty training, your MOS. You got to do that for another— for my, my case, it was 22 weeks. Every MOS is different. All right, uh, and when you're in this environment, there's no alcohol. Yeah, basic, it's impossible to get. I have no idea how someone would get alcohol on basic. And then at AIT, you used to be allowed to drink. Now they make sure— now they say you can't. But you also have more freedom in AIT. Like, you can get a pass to go off base. And if you're not in— like, like, you'll never see a service member drink in, in uniform. That is completely against the— but, uh, what you— what you are allowed when you're in civilian clothes, you can have a drink. And I snuck off base one time. Never— you know, I didn't sneak off base. I got a pass. I snuck and got some alcohol. That's what it was. Uh, but during this time, that's like the first time in my life where I was like sober.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, other than that one time where I had a drink, it was the first time in my life where I was sober. And along with that, I was also getting to know people and build respect and an identity outside of alcohol for the first time in my adult life. And, and it made me realize, you know, that I can be a person that people like and want to interact with without drinking. And so like I came back, it was like December 20th or something, they let us out. Went out, had drinks that night. You know, I had a terrible time, stupid stuff, drove, didn't remember driving. So there's that luck again. And then I woke up and I said, I gotta change. And what helped me do it, what helped me stick with it this time, because I had inklings that I had an issue and had tried quitting several times before, what helped me this time is I had a new identity and a new purpose. And I say this in my TED Talk about getting sober and it really stuck with me. About— now I can't remember the, uh, who said it, but I remember what they said, that, that, you know, as an addict, when you decide to see yourself as not one, the issue is like, who are you?

Yeah.

And I think that pulls a lot of people back. Uh, they don't, they don't see how they'll be a new person. They don't see how they'll maintain relationships. And relationships are the most important thing so important that like we, like, we've got the research, you know. Yeah. Uh, that we know if you wanted the, the single mediating factor, the like, or the strongest indicator that someone is going to become addicted to a substance or not, because they're not all addictive. Uh, I mean, they are all addictive, but like not everyone smokes crack the first time and gets turned out. Like, it doesn't work that way. Um, and, and no one starts shooting up straight, you know. People usually start with pills like Percs or something, and then they, they elevate. But what, what, uh, makes a difference is the quality of the— and the support of the relationships in their life, the stability, and how they view them and how they view themselves as part of that network. So it's, it's very— you, you need those relationships. And I had that. I, I, and, and that, and that because I had just met my wife at the time. She was a girl I was dating, you know, but she, she took a chance on me. She, she, she not only did she come see me graduate from basic training, she drove down to see me during Thanksgiving, uh, at— because I was at Fort Lee, Virginia. And so like, it was, it was a good— it was just a good time. It was, it was lucky. I was lucky, but I look back and I connect the dots and I see the two things that made a huge difference that I would tell anybody trying to get sober. I would say you need to lean into relationships and you need a purpose. I was like, for that first year of sobriety, I was so busy because I'm training them for my fight career. I'm now drilling once a month. Sometimes 2 weekends a year, or 2 weeks a year for the National Guard. I've got a job because I still don't have— you know, all, all the Army did was give me money for school. I still got to eat, and I'm not making that much from boxing yet. And, and I'm in school, so I got all this plus my relationship, all this. I gotta— I got a purpose. So, so it's not just the, you know, when I get some free time, let's go for a drink. Like, nah, when I get some free time, I wanna I want to hang out with my girl or do some homework or something, you know. So I had, I had things to do that made— that helps, that helps so much. And then I didn't want to disappoint the relationship. I said, I said, you know, this is a really nice girl, I don't want to expose her to any craziness. Um, and then it worked out, man. Now we got to— been, been what, 10, 10, 11 years, maybe more. Got a kid now. It's a good time, man.

Those are some really good insights for people that are just, you know, trying to get sober, or people that are in their first year of sobriety. I appreciate you sharing all that, that with us, and, uh, it goes a long way. Um, so let's, let's talk about your fighting career, and then I want to get to the books and all the other interesting things that you're doing. Um, you mentioned early on in our conversation that in boxing, when you lose, I mean they can be pretty detrimental to your health and safety, right? A guy's trying to take your head off. But I looked up your record, man. You didn't lose too much. You won a lot, a lot more than you lost. What was your record again? Your professional?

So as a professional, my record was 13-1-1. And as an amateur, I'm— so when you look up the records now, they do keep amateur records on BoxRec, but they're only like when you fought at a national level, like not a— right, not your local club shows that like count for development but don't really count towards anything. Like, you can lose all those shows and then win 3 in a row and then you're a national champion. So, but overall I had like 60 fights as an amateur. I think it was like 49-11 is what I— is what I remember. I have my book around somewhere, I gotta look this up. But yeah, um, a lot of fighting, a lot of development, um, a lot of training. And, and it's a good time. It's something I'm really proud of that I did because it completely changed my life. I could not imagine my life if I had not fought.

I would imagine that the daily routine, the determination, the perseverance, the grit, all of those things that, that come from boxing probably played a factor in your ability to write your books, right? Because writing, writing books is not It's not a small task, and I'm sure it takes some daily commitment and perseverance to get that done. So, so tell me a little bit about— it's not every day you meet, you meet a boxer that's also an author, right? That's an impressive feat, especially for a kid that comes from the, you know, the projects of Pittsburgh doing these amazing, enlightening, insightful things. And so tell me about that transition. You know, you're sober, you— your boxing career's winding up, you're probably trying to turn that purpose into something? And how do you end up with these two incredible bestselling books?

You know, man. So I always wanted to be a writer. That's just— let's just get that out of the way. But, you know, some kids, they want to pop on the screen, do YouTube or whatever. Some want to make music. I always wanted to write. I like writing. I like reading. And so writing was just a natural kind of thing for me to try. Lucky when I was born because the internet is a thing. And, and not only is the internet a thing, but like now anyone can just get on and then if you got something good to say, you can build a following and you get immediate feedback. You build an audience because you have something good to say. If you're not building an audience, you probably got to go and go back to the drawing board. Okay, uh, so, so the first book I wrote, you know, I should— it's full of typos, man. It's a self-published book, but the message I guess is clear because it continues to sell and people love it. Now I look at the reviews and then many of the reviews mentioned many of the typos and how poorly edited it is, and I'm like, of course it was poorly edited. Like, like I wrote it, I had people like reading it for me And I wrote them like a shoestring budget, but it was just like I said, essays and thoughts. And I wasn't nearly the writer I am now. Um, I didn't become a better writer until I finished. People think that the humanities and what you want to study to become a writer— nah, go, go. I studied physics, and that's what my degree is in. You go do that, that will make you a better writer because there's no room for imprecision. You have to be accurate and brief. A lot of people manage one or the other, but it's very hard to do both and do it at a high level because you need to know words. You need to know words and be able to string them together clearly. So that made me a better writer. But that first book wasn't written that way. And I just, I just put it together and watch how it went. And one of the cool things about it, right, I learned a lot by accident.

Some—

the title. Brings a lot of attention. Title helped, and then I got the interesting story behind it, so that's helped grow, grow, grow. If you can do anything wrong, or you can— if you want to, if you want to get one thing right when it comes to writing, nail the title. Like, the second thing, if you don't know the title, nail the COVID because if you don't get those two things, man, people don't want to really read, you can do your best and write your best. But when it comes to like building a network of people who like your content and work, you got to be able to title stuff.

And let me mention the title for the listeners right here. Of course, you're talking about not caring what other people think is a superpower.

That's what I'm talking about right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's just a brilliant title. I mean, that just catches your attention right away. And it resonates with people. I think people feel that on a deep level. When I, when I read that title, I'm like, yes, you know, I need to hear more.

And when I, when I was originally writing the book, I wish I could take credit for this, right? When I was originally writing the book, I was going to call it The Quotable Boxer. And then someone of mine— there's this guy that used to be big on the internet, Victor Prod, and I was a big fan of his, and he sent me a message. Uh, when I announced the title of the book, and he was like, it's crazy that you're such a good writer here on Twitter, but you do something so dumb as name a book The Quotable Boxer. That's awful. And because now, if this is anybody else, I'd be like, man, what the fuck's your problem? I don't know you. But because I, I liked his writing and his work, and I saw what he did, I took his advice. And, and he, and he said— and I, no, I asked him, I said, what should I name it then? He goes, anything else but that. Just take one of your best tweets. And he sent me what I should name it. And I said, OK, great. But after that point, though, I get— once I understood the idea, Sober Letters to My Drunken Self, my book about sobriety, that's my title. That's me. And I know that's a great title because you can always tell when you say a title or someone, you go, oh, I'm writing a book. And people always ask one of two questions. A, uh, what's it about? And what I've learned is that if you can't describe it in, in two sentences, you got to go back to the drawing board. Uh, yeah. And B, what's the title? And if people don't have a, a strong reason— like, you can tell when people get it and when they like it and when they're like, and it's not there. Uh, and if you don't get those strong reactions, your title is not good enough to stand out. Uh, and, and you need to stand out because, because when you go to promote your books— and you should go to promote your books. When I got a friend who's an author, he doesn't— I keep— I yell at him all the time. I'm like, dude, you got to promote. You got to like— either that or don't do the— don't go through the effort of getting published, right? Because even though it's self-publishing, there's still a bit of work that has to be done. It's not— it's not a walk in the park, especially if you want a good product. With Sober Letters to My Drunken Self is it's not professionally edited in the sense that I went and got someone who's like a, like a pro and that's all they do. But I got 3 different eyes on it. One person who is effectively a professional editor, not, not completely. Um, and it's a really solid thing. I got the COVID the COVID design, the inside layout. Like, that's a good product. That's a good book. And that did really well with people. And I wrote that from my heart. It was because one of the things that I struggled with when I got sober, no one warned me about the emotional changes that you're going to go through. People— the only thing I heard was you're going to lose friends. But this was— I wanted to write that so people had something so they knew. So I released that on my 5th anniversary, on my 5th year of sobriety. And then you want to talk about, you know, back to this title discussion. Victor Price, same guy. Um, I, I sent out an email about, on my newsletter, about, you know, how to wake up earlier and why you should wake up earlier. And, and I had a line in there and I said, I'm talking about, you know, you get up early and what'll help you is if you just go do stuff and start moving around. Engagement is the new caffeine. And he sent me a message and said, that's a great line right there, you should make a book about social media and name it that. Well, I said, all right, I tucked that in the back of my head. Two years later, I'm gonna write this, this, uh, guide about social— about writing on Twitter. And I came back to that, but I have like my own little personal sense of humor, and I changed it to Engagement is the New Cocaine. Yeah, that grabs you.

That grabs you. Yeah.

And, and I said— and, and doing— then the imagery, the first cover is this guy snorting Twitter birds like lines of coke. And that thing, that book, that ebook changed my life, man. Like, like to the point where it almost made me lazy because it was, it was making me like, like when I'd have a sale, here's, here's how good that sold. When I would, so first, the first sale, like, you know, I eventually got more comfortable raising the price. When I, when I settled on the price point, $100, during the pandemic, I would, um, I would have these sales because my wife is a travel agent. We were just a single income household because travel died. And I was like, oh shit. So I'd have these sales and I'd be able to clear $10,000 in a weekend just promoting that because the title is so good. Uh, and, and it's, you know, it's good information. Like, like, it comes highly recommended. A lot of people talk about it. But, uh, it, it, it just— you gotta have those skills, man. And, and how, how boxing helped with that I mean, like, you, you gotta— boxing didn't really help there, but you got to be able to— when you look at it, when you look at an issue, you go, how do I get from where I'm at to where I want to be? And it's just, it's a lot of small, small steps and just sticking with it day in, day out. We— everybody wants something fast. If you can train yourself to, to delay that and just try and get it and realize— what's that quote? Like, we overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate a year, or something to that effect. The point is that We want it quickly, so we don't really get it at all. But if we're willing to be patient, we can get a lot more than what we were expecting. And that's how it worked for boxing. That's how it worked for my degree in physics. I failed all of my math classes in high school. I was not like a math whiz. But when I decided that it was time to get this degree, it took me about 7 years of— 6 or 7 years of like improving my math skills to the point where I was like, okay, now I can take calculus. Calculus and passing that and doing everything good.

And you know, we're getting close to our time, but I gotta ask you about chess before we get out of here, because I, I'm reading about you before we come on today, and I see the boxing career. I, I knew about your struggles with alcohol. I knew about the books and a degree in physics. That's impressive. And then I saw— did I read this correctly? Are you a competitive chess player?

Yeah, yeah, I'm on a team here and then I play a lot on Chess.com and you can't see behind me, but there's a whole library of chess books there. I got a table. I really enjoy the game because it is just great for thinking, man. It's— and look, being good at chess makes you good at chess. I don't want to like say you should learn chess so you can be good at a bunch of other stuff. Or whatever. Makes you good at chess. Uh, but that doesn't mean it doesn't raise other parts of your brain. But I, I may like it because it lets me— I'm as good at chess. It's a cool thing. It's something that a lot of people don't put the time in to become good at. Um, and on top of that, I'm on a bit of a personal mission to prove that you can become a national— oh, national— you can become a master level player, uh, starting young. I mean, starting old. Everyone knows you start young, whatever. Starting holding and really getting ready. So I've been, I've been learning how to practice it, and I've been using that. I'm building this model, and I'm really happy with how it's turning out because it's the same model I've been using for my language learning. And like, like, I am, I'm very solidly confident that— well, no, I mean, I don't, I don't have to guess. Like, I know you can drop me in any, any place where they speak Spanish, and I can get to the airport and order food and have conversations. I can watch a lot of TV, not most of it, uh, and all this has come from a model of learning that a lot of people have— they don't understand or know. And I'm applying it to chess, and what I learned in chess, I'm also, you know, coming back and applying to language learning. And I also applied to trading because I think, though, because, you know, once I finished and turn in this manuscript and I get some other stuff done, uh, I anticipate being back in the gym, uh, like during the summer and getting back in fighting shape because I want to go test some ideas that I have. And who better to test it, uh, than a guy who will be— I'll be realistically 40, 39 or 40 before my next fight. And I'm like, oh my, my fight again. But I want to test these ideas out because I trained— I was training people for a little while and I got to see what worked, what didn't. And I came up with some ideas to kind of solve problems I had. And I'm like, oh, now I can teach those. And I'm excited. It's about learning for me. That's chess. Chess is a great arena to practice learning.

Well, you are such a perfect example of how you can live a purposeful, diverse, exciting, interesting life without drugs and alcohol.

Yeah.

And I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on. Before we get out of here, I want to ask for the people watching and listening, where can they find you? If people are interested in your products, your books, you know, how can people follow you?

All right. So I'm Ed Latimore. On the internet. Like, and then that sounds silly, but you'll see what I'm saying.

Well, I know because I Google— I Googled Ed Latimore and, and I saw everything.

Yeah, Twitter @EdLatimore is my handle. Instagram @EdLatimore is my handle. Um, LinkedIn @EdLatimore. My, um, my YouTube channel, for whatever reason, @Laddy1, but if you type Ed Latimore on YouTube, it'll come up because it's there. Uh, website edlatimore.com. So all of this stuff is, you know, that's how people get in touch with me. Type Ed Latimore on Amazon. And it's a pretty cool time, I think.

Well, thank you again for your time. You are a gentleman and a scholar. I'm Michael Smeltzer. That's Ed Latimore. And that was Second Act.