Sudowrite’s CEO on the Future of AI Writing

This is going to be special. Amit shares some of the upcoming features on Sudowrite that I'm super excited for.

But you'll have to wait till the.

End of the podcast. But in the beginning, I'll just share that Sudowrite is a platform that helps you write better stories with AI. I've known Sudrite for a while. Me and Emit met a few years back, and I'm super excited to have him on the pod, just to dive into his unique perspective around AI writing and where this is all going. And what I think you'll find is that a man is not like many tech people. He's not a tech bro. He certainly is not a tech bro. He is someone who is very thoughtful. He is trying to champion a product built for authors and built for writers. And I think you'll really enjoy this conversation.

Now, y' all will know that I.

Have doven deep into the AI space recently, which is somewhat controversial in the community. But honestly, I am so excited about building technology that can work with creative people that I knew I had to go out on a limb and build it. And what that is is Creatorwood. So if you don't know, Creatorwood is a platform that turns your book, script, any written story into a movie or show with AI. And if you want to join today, you can in the link description. At Creatorwood tv, we are still in beta at the time of recording, but we're starting to let more people in over time, which is very, very fun. And you can get in right now because you're listening to this podcast just by going to create a web tv. We have so many awesome things there and I'm just so excited for where everything's going. So we'll see y' all soon. We're on a mission to ultimately help more people create amazing stories. That's exactly what Sudarts do. And when you listen to this podcast.

I think you'll learn some awesome things.

And have some great tips on how you could work better with AI if.

You'Re already using AI to help you.

Write or start working with AI to help you write. All right, let's dive into it. I'll see y' all soon. And as always, I'm trying to share different perspectives going beyond the book. Our last episode, the creator wasn't even for AI. She was against it. And I get it. So I invite all perspectives on this podcast and myself. I'm upfront with my bias. I'm definitely very forward with technology, but I'm more forward with storytellers and I think you'll find the same thing about a mint. All right, let's dive in.

I'm very excited to chat with you live. We first met a couple years ago, and it was, like, early days strike. And it's been so cool to watch, like, not only the software and the platform just grow and get better, but the community around it grow. And I know this isn't your first rodeo when it comes to building pennies around technology, and what I wanted to ask you is, what made you want to start Sudari? Especially because y' all were, like, really early to the concept of writing with AI.

Yeah, well, we started out of our writers group, so James and I, my co founder, were in a writers group together for three or four years before Sudaray came to be. And I think the genesis was just, you know, writing is hard, writing is lonely. And luckily we had a group. I think that's the thing that probably helped us the most, just being in a regular writing group that was meeting once a week. But when these first large language models like GPT3 came out, we saw this potential to make something that really helped writing feel less lonely and ultimately just solved our own problems. Because even if we were meeting once a week and giving each other critiques, there were still seven days in between where we were knocking our heads against the desk and, like, stuck on something and wishing we had someone we could talk to to get through that. And this. This showed us that, like, there was another way to do that.

Yeah, no, I. I love it. It's when something's born of your own problems, it always makes it just that much closer to home. And I love that you described that sort of idea of pseudo write helping overcome writer's block. And I think that's part of where everyone's like, what is AI writing?

Right.

Because it's like, there's this idea that, oh, I've just put in a prompt and it gives me out a full book, and people get scared. And then there's this idea of, okay, it could help me with writer's block. And with you in it, you have this kind of incredible bird's eye view of seeing. Like, literally. I'm sure at this point, you've seen hundreds of thousands of writers pass through the platform and see how they use it. What. What do you consider to be writing with AI? What's your definition of that?

It varies a lot. I think that I can talk about how I use it personally, and I'm happy to also talk about how some of our users Use it. But for me, it's always been about that loneliness and about finding, like, a partner in the writing. My wife is a writer, so like, sometimes I'll run stuff by her when I'm stuck. But, you know, she's not always awake in the middle of the night or. And she's not always available during the day either. And the same is true of other people that I've worked with as, as writing partners or as critique partners. And so I think it's for me, just, like, keeping in flow. Like, if I'm stuck on something, this word seems wrong, I can skip over it. But if I stuck, get stuck at the end of, like, this scene, and I'm not sure where to go next, or I feel like the motivation of this character isn't quite hitting, and I don't know why. I have, like, a few choices, right? I can, like, just set it aside and come back to it. That's what I used to do, and it works great. Like, I might set it aside for two weeks, come back to it, be like, who wrote this? This is terrible. Like, this is obviously not how it should go. And now I know it should happen. Or I can talk it through with a friend. That works too. But these days, it's often just working with AI and bouncing the problem back and forth until I crack it myself. And I say crack it myself, even though, like, you know, I'm working with the AI to do it. Um, but actually does feel like I'm doing it myself different than, like, when I might go to a friend and say, like, oh, I'm having this trouble. And they would say, like, oh, try this, where they've given me the solution. Often with AI, I. I might get the solution, but just as often I'm getting what's wrong. And that's triggering something in me to come up with what. What I actually want to do, what I actually want to happen. So that's how I often use it. It's. It's like a mirror into myself. It's a way to, like, break through some. Something I'm stuck in. We have a lot of writers who use it that way. We also have writers who will use AI for the parts of the process that they just don't love. Like, we have writers who've told us they just cannot write one more fight scene, or they just cannot bear to write, like, one more sex scene or whatever it is. Like, they've just done it so many times and so, like, you know, wrote for them so robotic that they don't want to do it. They want the robot to do it. So those are pieces where they will get AI to do a first draft of that scene, and then they'll go back and improve it. We have authors who love every piece of writing, but they hate outlining. They just, like, pull their hair out over outlining. It just takes forever. It never feels like it's as good as it could be. And they get like, you know, two thirds of the book and realize that it's burning broken because the outline's broken now they have to go back and fix the outline, change everything. And so, like, putting in that time at the beginning with the AI as a thought partner to get the outline really dialed in is the thing that.

They value the most.

We have other authors who, you know, they were great at writing those fight scenes or whatever, but description is where they fall down. Like, they just, like, don't have the appetite for it. And so they just use AI to, like, help bring their scenes to life more visually. So it's like all. All across the board. Very. It very much differs. And I think it depends on the author's goals and what they enjoy about writing or don't enjoy about writing.

For me, I definitely. The editing is where I start to.

Hear that a lot.

Not for me. Not for me. So any help I can get on that end. You know, when I think about writing with AI, I also think about how I write with AI and, you know, what AI are you talking to, essentially? And so many folks listening. I'm sure everyone's tried ChatGPT. Who's listening? I mean, even if you're against AI, you've probably stumbled into ChatGPT at this point. But Sudowrite obviously is built to make fiction writing easier, but the question is, how does it do that?

Yeah, and by the way, I didn't mention editing, even though it is really popular, because I love editing. I don't want to opposite.

That's great, though. That's great. It shows that it help everyone.

Yeah.

So.

Sorry, sorry, what was your question?

Yeah, yeah, no, no. My question is, you know, there's ChatGPT, which so many of us have used and interfaced with, and then there's Sudowrite, which is built obviously to help make fiction writing easier. So what about Sudowrite makes it special and really makes that fiction writing process easier.

Yeah, there's a bunch of things. And it's also changed over time because the product has evolved a lot. And obviously ChatGPT and Claude and all these other tools have evolved too. But I'd say like at a very basic level it's, it's a tool made for writers, for writers. And I think tools like ChatGPT and Claude are made for everyone. So they try to do everything as well as they can, but they end up not being able to do like very specific things very well. And that's kind of the history of like any kind of tooling. Like you, you make something general purpose and it helps everyone a little bit. You make something really specific and really like precise for a specific task and it's really good at that thing. It might not be good at everything else, but it's good at that thing. So that's how we think about Sudaray. We're not trying to make something that's good for recipe planning. It's not good for like, you know, therapy, therapizing yourself. It's not good for all sorts of stuff that people use ChatGPT for, but it's really good for writing long form narrative. That's all we care about, I guess. More specifically we have very specific ways for you to like build the structure of your story and kind of architect your world. If you like to be a planner, we have very specific ways for you to like bust through those blocks when you get stuck. If you're, if you're a pantser. We have super specific tools for that to help you get unblocked and just keep going and going. And we, we now have our own LLM that's specific to fiction that sounds more like what an author would write. We have ways to kind of get around some of the blocks that some of the chatbots have around specific subject matter. So if you're, if your story involves violence or sex or you know, other topics that are kind of taboo with some of these chatbots we, you can use sudo, right? And you can get around that. So there's lots of little things like that. But overall philosophically we, we just care a lot about fiction. So we're making the tool that we would want for ourselves.

I love it. It's so cool too to have now like your own LLM that's able to bring out that voice because. Yeah, that's exactly. Chat is definitely terrible at that. Like, you know, it's, it's definitely not going to give you that voice. That is, that's awesome. I also know that you guys have the plugin ecosystem which I personally have played around with it. That's super cool.

Yeah, I think that's amazing because so basically on Sudrite you can, you can make your own features. You can make a button that does whatever you want, or, you know, there's a sequence of things in a specific order, and you can share those buttons or those plugins with anyone else. So I think it's. It's been really fun because we've made a bunch of stuff within the product that we think is useful to writers, but writers have made so much more. They've made like, tens of thousands of things that Sudaray can do now that we didn't even imagine it doing when we made it. And some of those things are really clever, Some of them are really useful. Some of them are just like, funny or fun. And it's opened up this, like, whole community ecosystem of functionality that never would have existed if we didn't create this way to let the writers, like, create the app with us.

I'll actually link to the page where you can learn about how to make a plugin yourself, because I made one. And I'll also link to the one I made to help you kind of start to understand how to validate your story and kind of create that sort of concept you can start to share with the world. And I was just shocked at how easy it was. It was like a couple minutes you can get something good going. And that was really fun. So I encourage people if you want to contribute. The plugins were very fun. Yeah.

And there's so many cool ones. There's ones where, like, people have made it so, like, you can talk to your characters. There's like, brutally honest feedback bots. And we recently made it a lot easier to make plugins too. It used to be that you had to, like, write a prompt basically and be a little bit versed in, like, how to write good prompts. And now it's much simpler. You just basically describe the plugin that you wish existed and it does all the work for you. And then you can go in and tweak it if you want to.

You know, on that note too, there's so much, I feel like the attention that prompting gets, like in the headspace of writers when they think about working with AI is a lot. And it can intimidate people. When working with Sudowrite, like, what is the best way to do it? From what you've seen, is it, do I need to learn a bunch about prompting? Where do I go for that?

You know, we try and we try as much as possible to make it really easy to learn. And that's like one of the main, main things that we work on with, with Sudra, how do we make it easier for people who are just getting started with this stuff? So you don't need to know how to prompt. You don't need to know. Like some people have these like, you know, Google Docs full of like really long prompts they copy and paste into Chat GPT and stuff. And you don't need to do that at Cedar. Right. That's why we had the plugin ecosystem. That's why it was like, set it up in such a way that it works kind of out of the box and you can, you can learn that stuff and you can create more complex plugins and do some really interesting stuff, but you don't, you don't just don't need to. And I think our, our philosophy is that writers want to tell stories. They don't want to learn how to like, you know, program chatbots. And so we're trying to make something that helps them tell better stories and focus on that instead of focus on the mechanics.

Yeah, no, I, I know. I, when, when you're writing, you don't think, okay, I'm in the mindset now, you know, prompt a chatbot. But in the same, same vein, I, I'm sure you've seen this and I'm at myself. As writers, we tend to be very particular about our process and we have our way of thinking and doing. And now you have this AI that's very powerful. But then for a lot of people, I think the question becomes, how do I change my mindset to like even work with this? Like, there's this powerful tool, I can use it all these different ways, but like, I'm kind of dead set in my way. So how can I adapt?

Yeah, I think for most people, like their first taste of this stuff is with ChatGPT or Claude or something like it. And I think going back to what I was saying about how people use Sudaray, it's often like one of those things that they are stuck with or they just don't like doing and they're, you know, in a moment of desperation, perhaps they're like, oh man, I just can't get this to work. Like, fine, I'll ask Chat GPT or something. And usually chatgpt can unblock something. So I think we do have that facility in Sudrite too. We have like a writing specific chat, so it's a little bit more tuned towards novelists. And so if you want to use Sudowrite the traditional way, you're going to use an app that looks like Scrivener. Or looks like some of the other apps that you're used to. It's a lot simpler, but it does have that same like documents on the left and like this spot for characters and this spot for world building or whatever. So you have like a place to plug in all these familiar things. But we also do have that kind of free form canvas of the chat where you can just talk to it and try to ask it how to. How to get unblocked or how to, how to figure out this problem as if you're talking to a human. And it has access to all your documents and has access to your story Bible. And so it can like make more intelligent responses based on all that context.

Yeah, no, that makes, that makes so much sense. I definitely was, I was a fan of being able to like click to generate like a story bible. Like, I was like, oh good, I don't like this stuff at all. So I was like, great. I just want to like brain dump and then organize it. So I found it also to be like, incredibly helpful at that.

One of the, one of the things that I think actually users have found the most interesting and useful is that like, and this is a free feature of Sudo, right? You can just bring your manuscript, whether it's finished or in progress, or even if it's just like a, a document full of like random rambling notes or even chats or something, and you can import into Sudra and it'll use that to create your story bible. And then you have like a really clean bible full of like all your characters, your world, like your outline. Everything is just like created for you out of what you brought in. And even that I think has been super useful for people because otherwise you're like spending hours or days making that or like potentially in some cases even hiring someone to make that Bible for you. And this can make it in 10 minutes and do a really great job.

That's huge. Yeah, that's. I love that, that, that, that's a great reason just to get started. I, yeah, I'm one of the people who like the writing around the writing is one of my least favorite things. So how can I like do less writing around the writing? And that. That seems to be a big help. What have been some of the surprising ways you've seen people use it, right? Where you're like, I did not expect that. Hmm.

Well, I definitely. We didn't expect people using it for non fiction because we're really, really focused on fiction and we do have quite a few people doing that. We have people writing memoirs. When we first started, when we first started Sudarite, these, these AI models were not really good at facts. They hallucinated a lot. They would make a lot of things up. And so fiction was actually a great use case because in fiction you're just making stuff up all the time. So yeah, we, we made the product very much in that vein and we didn't expect that people would start using it for these other domains. And it works relatively well because the AI models under the hood have gotten better and they're less prone to hallucination. They will, they're more, they're more likely to be factual if you want them to be. So it does work for those things. What else has been unexpected? I mean people have always used it for like weird one off projects. Like they'll write a YouTube script or a TikTok script or they'll use it to like write a letter to their mom. Like just all this stuff that it's like it can do, but it's obviously not meant to do. They'll just still use it for that. Yeah, those are the ones that come.

To mind that makes. So yeah, I, I'm actually surprised, but not surprised by non fiction because there's just so many nonfiction writers out there. I think anything that can help them memoirs makes an awful lot of sense. Yeah, it's. I've recently been like diving into the world of like screenwriters and script writing.

I, I bet.

Have you seen them too? Because I bet they would love.

Yeah, yeah, we definitely have a fair number of screenwriters. Yeah.

Cause that's. It seems like that falls in the bucket of long, long form narrative. So, so interesting now when it comes to how you've seen this space evolve, where do you see it going from here? I think there's sort of this fear right. Among a lot of people that we're gonna like. This is gonna keep getting better and eventually it's gonna one click books. So like it's, it's kind of, it's a really helpful tool now. But we're now gonna, we're all gonna die at some point. You know, as writers there's always that sort of existential the apocalypse is near fear. But then there's also the people who are like just super generally curious. I fall definitely into this camp where I'm like just so excited to see the progress of the tech because I think it's going to work with humans better. Regardless of what your opinion is though, there's no doubt it's changing. So where do you see this going and what are you excited about coming in the future with AI writing? Yeah.

Well, I. I would say, like, even today, it's almost like there's an infinite amount of books in the world. Like, there's just so many books published each year. There's so many books, you know, online at any given time. There's so many books to library. So, like, the problem is really about discovery. It's how do you stand out and how do you get people to notice you and hear about your book and pay attention to it? Um, and that problem's not getting easier, but I don't know if it's actually getting worse either, because like I said, I feel like there's already an infinite number of books. There's an infinite amount of content, there's infinite TikTok, there's infinite Netflix, there's infinite everything. So everything in the world is competing with your reader's attention for. For time. And I think the same things that you need to do today are the things you'll need to do tomorrow to, like, overcome those things. You'll need to find what your true story is and what your true voice is. And, like, who. Who really needs to hear the story that you want to tell and how do you reach those people? Those are the problems that writers have always had. Those are problems that writers will probably always have in the future. I think these tools are super exciting. I think they're going to get much more useful and they're going to get better at writing. I think it's likely that at some point you'll be able to say, I want to read a story that is set in this place about this type of thing, and it will write you that story. That's not the tool that we're creating. I don't think it's the tool that we're excited to create. We want to create a partner for writers, something that helps them tell their true story. But inevitably, someone will make that tool. But I think that there's all this fear that I hear about people flooding Kindle with tons of AI generated books and just all the slop. And it's certainly happening. But it's what I said before, like, actually reading, reaching your readers is the big problem. And it's not that you're competing with more books, because there will always be more books. It's how do you connect with the reader on the other side of the page and find the person that really needs to hear your story and speak to them directly? So, yeah, I don't know I think there will be more books. I'm excited for there to be more voices. We hear about a lot of people writing books for the first time that either they like started and couldn't finish on their own and Sudara helped them or they just never thought they could do it. And Sura got them over there, you know, got them to start and to finish. And I think that's exciting. I think stories are the way that we like communicate with each other, the way that we connect with each other. And the more we can do that, the better the world is going to be, the more we can understand each other. So I think there's a lot of good that will come from more human stories out in the world. And I think as writers our job is still going to be really hard because we have to market.

Yeah. You know, on that. Whether it's Sudri or just AI in general, can. Can it also be a partner for us in that part of the process? And if so, like, how do you.

See it as a partner help us market?

Yeah. And this is actually one of the things a lot of people have me plugins for, like helping them figure out like what, what the market is doing right now, what's interesting, whether they should write to the market or not. Like how they could, you know, twist their story or turn their story to, to address the. Where the market's going right now to help them develop blurbs or marketing materials or you know, videos around the book, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, AI can definitely help with all that stuff and it'll help better and better every day. Like yesterday, OpenAI released 6 Sora as in like Sora 2, which is much better than their first video model. I think it's very likely we're going to see authors start to make more trailers for their books because the video tech has gotten so good and it, you know, some authors would make video trailers for their books before, but it required like a decent amount of expense and time and that, that bar has gotten lower and lower. It's going to get easier and easier to make it. I hope that will help authors reach more, more readers. Yeah, I think, I think these tools will help with all aspects of writing, whether it's brainstorming or ideation or outlining or marketing or you know, writing newsletters or reader magnets or whatever else writers need to do.

Yeah, I mean it's, it to me that's empowering because as a one person publishing house for many indie authors talking to the self published books which most people listening to this are like, uh, yeah, juggling all the balls at once. I, I remember when I was like really deep in. Not on the software side, but on the writing side. It was like 70 hour weeks to keep up with everything. Like. Cause you're not just writing. Like if it was just the writing, that'd be one thing. And it's also great to have help there, but it's, it's everything else and, and it's really, really tough. Now this is a question that came up to me when you were talking about the voice and your voice really mattering and when you use AI to write, that's a really. It's like, oh, where, where's my voice now? How does, how do you navigate that? Is there ways to work with, to write, to actually inject your voice into it?

Yeah, definitely. So we spent a lot of time on that because from day one it's been the thing that our writers have cared the most about. How do we make the. How do we make this sound like me? Because it doesn't sound like me out of the box. If you, if you have ChatGPT help you with something that sounds like ChatGPT wrote it. So there's a lot of ways to do this within Sudo, right. The newest way to do is something called My Voice, where you can upload a manuscript or upload a chapter, upload whatever you want. And it will create a model that's just for you to use that sounds more like you based on that work. And then you can use that in various parts of Sudo, right? To get suggestions and write or to get a first draft and generate a first draft or whatever. And we're still dialing it in, but we're really excited about it because it's. I think it's the best yet, the best way to get your voice out of AI. And like I said, it's a private model only you can use it. You can delete it whenever you want. Your, your material doesn't affect anyone else's voices or Suda as a whole. So we spend a lot of time kind of focused on the privacy aspect of it and making sure that you can use it in a way that feels safe and is safe. But yeah, that's one way. I'm sure we're going to keep working on other ways.

That's a big way.

Yeah, yeah. I'm reluctant to. It's like still in beta, so I'm like, should I be talking about this? But it's, but it is available to subscribers now and I Think it's going to be really big and I think there's going to be other stuff like this too. Like, I think that there's a lot of ways we've tried to tackle this problem and this particular one, my voice has taken us about two years to get to. But it's, it's, it's a big problem and we're going to keep trying to do better and better with it.

Yeah, well, I think that's, I'm. Yeah, I gotta try that. That sounds very interesting because that's, I can't. I, I know enough to know that the amount of work that took to solve that is absolutely non trivial. But that is amazing and I think that that's certainly exciting. That. Yeah, I'm just imagining now like that could be really, really interesting. Especially the privacy aspect. That's, I mean that's huge. Yeah, good going. That's fun. That's really fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I love it. I get so I near an eye about this stuff. I love it. Well, I really just have, you know, one last question which is his topic of the classic, you know, I'm sure pseudo rights had so many people that know about it now. But you've got the people who know about it and are like, yeah, you've got the people in the middle who just maybe haven't tried it yet. Then you've got the people who are. It's not, it's, it's not you, it's me, it's. I don't, I don't like AI. I don't think this is for me. I think my readers are going to know and all of those, you know, rightful fears, people who come from this place where, where pseudo. Right. Would be something that they can't use because they don't agree with using AI Obviously, you know, we respect people and their opinions and you know, not everyone has to use every tool. But you know, for me I've been a lot more public about AI because I really believe it can help people and I'm sure you feel the same way. So what is your message to writers who are on the fence about using AI tools? About why they maybe should consider it? Sure.

Well, first, I don't, I don't really try to convince anyone to consider, to consider it or try it. I think that everyone's on their own journey and they're using their own tools and if it's working, what they're doing is working, then they should just keep doing what they're doing, you know, but if, if there's someone on the fence who's having, who's struggling with some aspect of their writing and they feel like they're, they're not telling the story that they want to tell or it's not coming out as good as they could. I think that there's a lot of tools out there. You don't have to use Sudaray either. There's a lot of, you know, a lot of other tools as well. And I think I like to approach life with a sense of openness and curiosity. And I think that's, that's what's been probably the most helpful thing in me and getting to where I am in life and just like finding interesting people and living in an interesting place and doing interesting work. And so if you're curious, try some of these things. They're not gonna bite you. They're not gonna like, destroy your work or make you an unethical person. And if you don't like them, don't use them. But I do think in general, like, this is the reason I don't try to convince people is because I don't really have to. Like, these tools are incredibly useful and more and more people are discovering them and using them all the time. And it's like, you know, this switch from like digital photography, from film photography to digital photography, or like from traditional publishing to indie publishing. There's a lot of people that, you know, switched over to the new thing and there's a lot of people who decided, hey, I'm never going to shoot with digital. I'm always going to shoot on film because film is real. Or I'm always going to like film my movies on film because it's real or I don't think indie published books are real books, like only traditional published books are worthy of attention ever. And it's totally fine for people to believe those things and it's fine for other people to publish indie and see a lot of success and, and be happy with that. So I think I would just say be curious and try things and if you're got something that's working, keep doing the thing that's working. Both are good.

I, I love perspective. I know that you recently, not recently, but in, you know, the last couple years have left the Bay Area. I can see why. Uh, you know, the sort of being in San Francisco, being in the heart of, you know, all of the, you know, we have the best thing ever and it's actually like a toaster. Uh, I could see why you. I can see why you've maybe searched For a more balanced place. I could feel you, like, you've got this, like, obviously, like, you're incredibly brilliant with how you look at technology, but you have such a balanced perspective on it, which is really refreshing because we have so many AI CEOs telling us that it's going to change everything about.

The world and we're all going to.

Use it all the time. And I think they're maybe not wrong, but for you to be saying, look, I'm just going to sit here and make this thing better, and it's already really cool and whatever you want to do, I think it's a really refreshing perspective. And I'm glad that this is the voice you're bringing to the writing community. Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, I'm hopeful that, you know, everyone gets to tell their story and that's however they tell it is fine. It's great.

Yeah, yeah. And you're just along the ride to try and help them. For the folks who want to. I. This is great. Um, I would love if there's any like. I mean, there's obviously sudowrite.com outside of pseudo.com. is there any, like, interesting resources or places in the Sudowrite ecosystem that you would send folks after listening to this podcast.

Um, yeah. I mean, if they're. If they're curious about this stuff. We teach classes every day on various aspects of craft and also show off the. Show off Sudrite itself. So that's always an interesting place to start. And if you go to our website, you can find the classes, uh, you can also find them on Luma, Luma slash Sudarite. Um, and that's a way to dip your toes in and see how other writers are using these tools without even using them yourself. So maybe a good place to start.

Amazing. I'll link to that down below. Yeah, the classes are super helpful. I feel like you want to. Having CUNY to help you with it is. Is key. Well, this was amazing.

Thank you, Michael. Yeah, this is really fun.

Yeah, Yeah, I always. Yeah, I. I always love, enjoy talking about this stuff. And I, Yeah, I'm very excited you mentioned the. My voice. I'm like, I'm ready. My voice. Where is it? So I'm excited.

Nice. All right, Thank y' all for listening. What's really cool about Sudarite is they're actually a part of Michael's list.

It's a tool list of tools, books.

And software that I recommend for indie authors to level up. And you can find it in the link in the description where you can actually access that list completely for free. No email required. So I hope you enjoy it. I'll see you all soon. As always, don't forget, together we are boundless.