Should daughters receive guidance from elders on who to marry?

So what do you think of the marriage between Helen and Arthur?

I knew it was gonna turn out this way, but I kind of hoped it didn't— wouldn't have, because in the beginning I was like, oh, maybe this Arthur's a nice guy. Um, but after the conversation he had with Helen about Lord Lopera is that how you pronounce his name? I'm not sure. Then I knew it was going to be— it was going to be bad.

What led you to— what led that— how did that conversation convince you it was going to be bad?

Well, they were talking about Lord Lockborough's alcoholism and how he decided to go sober, but, um, Mr. Huntington was the primary source of that alcoholism and like kept pushing him to keep going and keep drinking, which is obviously not good. Um, and if I had heard that, I would have been like, you did what? Um, and even though he's like, oh, but I love you so much, I'm not going to do anything like that again, I feel like there are just some things you can't get past. But maybe that's just me, I don't know.

What do you make of the aunt? To go backwards, you know, the aunt was very, very much against, uh, Helen, Mary, and this guy. Um, what do you make of, A, the aunt's warnings, and then Helen's, uh, failure to abide by those warnings?

Um, in the beginning I didn't really care too much for the aunt's warnings because I thought they were, um, they didn't have any evidence to them. Like, she was saying that, um, he hangs around, he hangs around bad people from what she heard. Now, now I know that's true, but, um, then I was like, well, do you know who he hangs around? Have you seen these guys before? Um, have you seen him do anything bad? But the thing about Helen's argument is that she had never directly seen him do anything bad or good, so it was like in the middle. So she couldn't say that he was not fit to marry. She was just in love because he was handsome and better than the other guys.

So would you say that Helen, in retrospect, was Helen foolish, stupid, careless? How would you— I would say at this point it's pretty clear Helen did not make a good choice, and perhaps she should have listened to her aunt. So yeah, just is this what happens? Young people make stupid choices? Or how do you judge, how do you evaluate her, the fact that she ended up with Arthur even though her aunt had warned her against him?

Um, I mean, I don't think she was stupid, but I think she was impatient. I think she could have waited longer to say yes to being married. I think she could have spent more time with him and had that conversation about the alcoholism before she got— before she said yes, and then maybe dove into that a little bit more. Um, but I feel like it would have been hard for her to say no, especially when her father and uncle said yes, because He never really showed that side of him until they were years into marriage and had a son. I mean, it came up slowly, but it really came up right at the end, I feel like. Um, and she just kept putting off all the little warning signs. So it was partly her fault, but partly she couldn't have seen it coming since she was so in love.

Should we have blamed the father and the uncle for a kind of approving the marriage so quickly?

At some point, yes, because the uncle, especially the uncle, said yes right away. I feel like it didn't really take long, much to convince him, um, even though maybe he knew a little more about Huntington's past.

I think, I mean, you know, many people think it's antiquated for one's parents or a family to approve a marriage at all anymore. Um, now I think the norm is two young people fall in love and get married, and they don't even ask their parents sometimes. Um, do you think that at least having older people, older family members play a role in these decisions was a good thing, or it's obsolete? What do you make of that?

Um, I, I think there's some wisdom to that. Maybe people think that it's sexist now if, um, the man asked the father for permission. Until I heard that opinion, I guess I didn't really see anything wrong with it, other than the fact that maybe the dad might be some, like, I don't know, some negative person and doesn't want his daughter to get married. But I think in especially cases like this, it might be good to get an outside perspective, especially if you know that your parents or relatives are well-educated and you trust them. Um, like, I, I would— I'm not sure what I'll do in the future, but I'll probably ask my parents for advice on anything like this. Um, but I think she should have taken their advice, or taken the aunt's advice, a little bit more seriously.

Um, yeah, again, in retrospect, uh, I think my take is she just thought the, the aunt was kind of prejudiced or had a bad attitude or something against him.

Yeah.

Do you think that Arthur in some sense does love Helen?

I think so. I don't think it's all fake. I don't know if it is fake, honestly. I can't really tell. Because he says all these performative things about how you're the only one for me, and I love you so much I'm gonna quit this and that, but he doesn't really. And then he also goes and cheats somewhat with Annabella, I think it is, or someone else, and then, um, while he's kind of drunk, I think. So that's not very good, but she accepts his apology right away. And that's actually— that point was where I was like, this isn't going to be good, because I feel like when someone cheats, you can't really get past that.

Are you talking about the flirtation at the piano?

Yes. Oh, I thought they kissed, but maybe I just read too fast.

No, he did kiss, so kiss the hand is what I saw, but still. Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Yeah, exactly. Certainly physical affection and going in that direction had Helen not joined them at the piano. Yeah, what did you make of his apology in that case?

I was a little confused, I think, because it seemed to happen so quickly after everything. And I feel like— oh, yeah, and I feel like he had been caught in the act rather than apologizing on his own, which Helen does bring up. I think it happened too fast for it to be really sincere. I don't think it was sincere at all.

But in some ways he kind of excuses it and says it's harmless. Um, would you try that argument that, you know, it's just harmless fun?

No, it's not harmless fun. I disagree.

Do you think that Helen should have been harsher with Arthur earlier?

Absolutely, I think so. I mean, that was the only case like that that we know of, but Um, I feel like she blamed his attitude changes and like him not wanting to be around her as her fault. Um, but also she wasn't weak enough to like just let everything happen. She kind of tried to make conversation and fix things, but he was either too immature or didn't care. Um, so yeah, it just kind of fell apart.

What about kind of disappearing for months at a time and barely writing to her and all of that? I guess, to some extent, I'm not— we know from the beginning of the book that she ends up separated from Arthur with her little Arthur. And I guess I'm not clear on her alternatives, but it looks like not great alternatives, you know, if you're married in that age and you want to separate or divorce. But do you think, you know, given the circumstance she had to be in at the end, at the beginning of the book, Do you think she should have just broken off all relationship earlier or tried to? Or what's your sense of what would it mean for her to be harsher earlier on?

I think it would mean for her to fall out of love. And I think the reason why she didn't do that is because she was, or was still a little bit in love with him. But then as things went by, it slowly went away. And then she— I mean, I don't know if she's going to break it off or if he's going to die or what, but she felt like trapped. Um, and about him going away for months at a time, it really icked me, um, especially when I found out that he was hanging out with that club of his again. I hated it.

So yeah, um, what about the complication of having a son with him? Do you think that because she has a son with him, she should kind of try harder, and maybe she is putting up with more than either of us would like her to put up with, that it's because of the son.

That's a good point, and I think that could be true for sure. But I think it also applies to him as well. He has a son too. It's theirs, and I feel like he should try harder, um, to be with them and connected more.

Yeah. Does, does he have any family members that could straighten them out? I'm trying to think, uh You know, sometimes back in old days, if a family member was acting irresponsibly, you know, like a husband, sometimes, you know, his father or brothers or something like that, or uncles would straighten him out. I'm not remembering, does he have anybody like that who could straighten him out?

I don't remember anybody like that.

Yeah, but you can see it's tricky. I mean, and this, this is going back to the decision to marry him. That is, once she makes that decision, it looks like she's trapped in the sense that, um, well, I don't know, does it seem— do you think, based on what we know of her living alone in the country with little Arthur, that it kind of turns out okay in the end after she separates from him? Or do you think that, um, it's pretty painful for her to live alone and also people gossiping about her? So, you know, we don't know the whole circumstances of her life in the beginning, but we know she ends up, you know, alone in the countryside, isolated with her son, people gossiping about her. And for whatever reason, she doesn't feel like she can start a real relationship, maybe because she's still married to Arthur, I don't know. So, yeah, do you think that, do you think that it, as painful as it is, it's— and she's painting, she seems to enjoy her painting and reading. Do you think that, um, or drawing and reading, I forget. Do you think that, you know, bummer of a marriage but it turns out okay in the end, or bummer of a marriage and kind of a bummer of a life?

Um, well, for now, definitely bummer of a marriage and then sort of bummer for life. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with Gilbert in the end, but At the moment, she seems like her personality has shrunk down. She's very reclusive and not very talkative. Um, seems like something more probably hurt her. Something worse probably is going to happen before they separate somehow. Um, I mean, it could, it could be worse though. She has a— she's living in a big property in the country where no one can bother her except for Gilbert, I guess. So in the end, it could have turned out worse for sure, from what we know. Yeah.

I don't know if you've heard the expression, a slow motion train wreck, but it does look like— the fact that she still wants to love, she wants to hang on to her love for Arthur despite everything, I would say is kind of painful to watch. And what do you make of her, the distinction between being angry at Arthur versus coming to hate Arthur? Do you think she should be angry or that she should hate him or both?

Uh, well, if I were her, I would probably— it would probably be both for me just because of his actions. But, um, I mean, recently she's been angry and then she hasn't been angry, like she's forgiven him and everything seems to be going back to normal, and then it doesn't and it's 10 times worse, or 2 times or whatever. So I think that maybe now in a couple more instances she'll be just angry. But like you said, slow motion train wreck, I think it'll build up and in the end she'll hate him.

Well, I assume you look forward to reading more.

Yes, I do.

Yeah, I know it's, uh, it is as an author, it is a compelling narrative strategy.

Um, yeah.

Yeah. 'Cause I'm, it's not in some ways it's not fun to read, but you know, you wanna keep reading to see. How bad does this get? It's going to get bad. Poor Helen. In any case, delightful to discuss it with you, and we'll figure out chapters for next time. And you have a competition coming up soon, right?

That's right. Yeah, actually, next Sunday I do have one. I think— I don't think it'll be— or actually, Austentime is ahead of me, right?

Yep.

I'll have to figure that out with you on WhatsApp, but I'll let you know.

All right, well, I love the posters for your competition, so go Alana! All right, thank you. Yep, bye-bye.