Wuthering Heights from a 13 year old's perspective

So yeah, what do you think of Wuthering Heights as a whole?

I think it ended kind of on a good note, but, um, especially after we jump back to the current generation, it was pretty horrifying and confusing a little bit with all the names, but I think I got it.

So first, in what sense do you see it ending on a good note? Give me the good note version.

Um, well, I recall young, young Cathy and Hareton kind of bonding over him learning how to read, which is nice because I love reading. And that sort of like broke the cycle, um, because I think, I think we were, we were gonna see if they were gonna keep hating each other and like keep taking revenge on whoever— Heathcliff or them— but then they started bonding over something that they could both enjoy. So I thought that was cool.

No, that's fair. That's totally fair. So after, like, I don't know how many pages of horrible people doing horrible things to each other, we do have the two of them coming together in a positive way for sure. And that is nice. So, so yeah, it does end on a good note. And I guess we should be grateful for that. That is, I'm trying to get into the author's head. If we go through all of these horrible people doing all these horrible things to each other, and you're right, it does end on an upbeat— it's not clear that it's going to be like this glorious happily ever after. I mean, you know, in Jane Austen, oh, you know, we're married and happy. And even if it's quiet.

Yeah, double married.

Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, it's— so you're right, after this kind of horrible stuff, then there's this little uptick at the end. Um, what do you make of why is the author doing all of this to us? What is her goal?

Um, I think she's trying to show like the cycle of hatred and revenge and how Heathcliff has changed from, from what I could tell in the beginning, like a pretty sweet, intelligent boy who was friends with Catherine. Now he's trying to psychologically take— or not psychologically, that's the wrong word— but he takes over two of the estates, um, and all of its money, and somehow ropes Cathy into living— the younger Cathy, um, into being a widow, and because she's his daughter-in-law, he gets the estate. And he's just kind of wicked and manipulative overall. So I think she's just trying to show that— well, actually, I don't really know what her end goal is, but, um, there's a lot of that going on.

But actually, you're right too. Um, in the very beginning, um, there is the kind of positive relationship between Catherine and Heathcliff. So there's this kind of wonderful Catherine and Heathcliff relationship, then two generations of nightmares, and then the Eric and Kathy thing at the end. And so cycle— does it seem plausible that this sort of cycle of hatred could kind of go across two generations like that?

Absolutely, yeah. Especially since this one guy had so much influence for such a long time. Oh, Heathcliff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what do you make of him? Um, well, I want to go back to a thing we talked about earlier where although these— most of the main characters are mostly pretty horrible people, it does feel as if we're sort of— we have some empathy with them. Would you say— how do you feel about Heathcliff by the time he dies and when he dies?

I think I feel a little bad for him in the sense that he seems a little helpless at the end, but it doesn't really overcome all the other feelings that I've, um, gained for him because he's done all these horrible things and, um, abused so many people. So I don't really have any positive feeling toward— feelings towards him. Um, yeah, he's pretty bad.

Yeah. Um, and then what do you make of the wanting to be buried next to Catherine and all of that sort of stuff.

I think that's kind of ironic and brings kind of a poetic end to their relationship. Um, again, there was a theme of them being madly in love no matter what the other one does. So like, I guess if Catherine was alive, she'd be okay with it. That's what I was thinking. But if I were her, I would not want him next to me. But maybe that's just my opinion.

Well, there I think there is, you know, there's a whole, and especially 19th century novels, huge genre of romantic love. And it seems, I guess, are we supposed to see Heathcliff wanting to be buried next to her as just demonstration that he had such intense love for her and that some kind of, it's a, I don't know, is it, a twisted, sick thing that he wants to be buried next to her, or is it a sign of great love, or both? Are they the same thing?

Uh, I'd probably say a little bit of both, but I'm not really sure how to interpret the doing it just for like irony or revenge or something. I'd say it's leaning more towards because he still has some amount of love for her even though she's gone and has been, I think, for a little while. Um, and yeah, I think that was especially in the first generation part, that was a big part of the story. And I think author wanted to end on a closing chapter to that.

And I guess, um, I don't know, and you said you haven't read a lot of romantic sorts of things, but I guess, um, well, first of all, would you say that romantic love is an ideal today or not necessarily? Or what's your— what's the cultural status of romantic love today?

Do you mean in books or in real life?

Either way.

Um, I think that if you mean like two people falling in love, I, I hope, I'd hope that's the ideal. I know it's different now because there's like online dating apps, and I'm not really sure how that works, so I'm not sure if it's as organic as it used to be. Um, I hope it's the ideal, and I think I've been reading a little more like modern romantic type of stories. And I think that that's usually what happens, even though it takes— maybe there's like a buildup to it.

So I'm glad to hear it's still an ideal of sorts. And I also respect your concern that maybe the dating apps could change that dynamic a little bit. How about kind of obsessive love? Because the other one version is romantic love is an ideal. The other is, you know, call it obsessive love is sort of a sick thing. Is that also a cultural thing? A thing either in literature and/or in real life that some people are kind of obsessed in a sick way with romantic partner?

I'm sure that there are people like that, um, and I know that there's people who are like obsessed with celebrities or other, other figures, maybe not necessarily in a romantic way. And I don't think that's very healthy to be obsessed with someone. Um, I mean, if it's— if you don't do anything bad, I guess it's okay. But I feel like obsessive love is maybe what drove Heathcliff to his, uh, bad ways of getting revenge. I think— I'm not sure if it all had to do with Catherine, but it probably had some. It was probably a little bit of a factor. And I've actually never heard of any big cases in real life, so I don't know a lot about it, but sounds not good.

Now, I think one of the reasons I'm interested in the status of love in this book is because so much of Heathcliff's behavior is just vindictive and nasty. I guess a question I have is, in his competition with Edgar, and, you know, how horrible he is with Edgar, not only Edgar, but then also, you know, the next generation. One, I guess one interpretation is He hates Edgar because Edgar has status and he doesn't, but that's bound up with the fact that Edgar married Catherine and he couldn't. And do you think that— I guess if it's just status envy, I guess I'm trying to see, is there any honorable part of— I'm still curious, why don't we just absolutely loathe Heathcliff, and maybe we do, but I guess what— how does Heathcliff get any redeeming— how do we have any empathy at all ever for Heathcliff given how horrible he is?

Um, I think because of his history. He was, um, really badly abused by Hindley and then, um, experienced that betrayal from Catherine. Um, I know multiple times when she came back from the Lintons, I believe, all proper, and like doesn't really want to hang around with him because she's— she wants to, but she's afraid that it'll like, um, or she's afraid that— afraid it'll mess up her status. And then she marries Linton, or Edgar, because she wants status, but kind of regrets it because she loves Heathcliff. So I think, um, he's experienced a lot of both. But I've— and I feel like those feelings maybe drive him to do what he does later on. Um, I haven't experienced it, so I'm not sure if it's completely justified or not because the things he does are pretty horrible. But if anyone had any empathy for him, that's probably where it comes from.

If anyone had any empathy for him. Uh, but what you're legitimately pointed out is we do see him as, uh, call it a young innocent, uh, that his wrongs were done to him that he did not deserve. And then he kind of builds this entire life about doing wrong back.

Yes.

Both to the Hindley side, but also to the Edgar side, and even into the second generation. I think that's what's extraordinary is that it's one thing to hate your enemy, and I'm not big on hate anyway, but then to hate your enemies' children, especially after they're gone. That just seems like way over the top. And not just hate, but actively to engage in extended acts of damage and harm to them. Yeah. And then, so maybe go to a different thing. I mentioned early on that there was sort of a mention of ghosts in this, but I'm not sure how seriously to take. I don't know, not a lot, but I think over the course of the book, there are 4 or 5, 6 places where people sort of talk about ghosts. How seriously do you take those?

Um, I didn't really associate them with reality. I kind of associated them with, uh, the characters going a little bit mad, just a little bit. Um, I know the original Catherine, I believe, brought them up at least once or twice, I think, when she was going kind of insane towards her end, I think. And then also before Heathcliff dies, I think he mentions that Catherine's— he thought that Catherine's ghost had been haunting him. Um, I, and I think, I mean, I'm not sure if he went a little bit mad or not. Maybe, um, maybe he did actually see something, but I feel like this story is pretty grounded in reality. And I know people believe in ghosts, but I'm— I haven't seen one, so I don't know.

So it's something—

but I think it's— sorry, go ahead.

I was going to say, um, it sounds like you'd say maybe more it's a psychological phenomenon rather than intended to be a metaphysical phenomenon. That is, these are kind of psychological states that various people— the something about them is so, um, or their love or their longing or whatever is so intense that they see ghost-like apparitions, or also dreams, or I guess the status is ambiguous is what you're saying, then it's not that we're supposed to believe there's kind of a real live ghost in the room kind of thing. Is that accurate?

I think so. Yeah, that's how I saw it.

Yeah, that's how I saw it too. And I guess I remember hearing the ghost thing and I was surprised at how mostly psychological. It's not clear that— it's not clear at all that Emily Brontë intends for us to believe in ghosts at the end of the day. If that's the case, why do you think she— what's the effect of talking about them having these ghost-like apparitions?

I'm so sorry, you cut out. Can you please say that again?

Yeah, what's the intention? Why do you, why do you think she, um, has them talk about these ghost-like apparitions?

Um, I mean, it could be to enhance the psychological state of either Heathcliff or Catherine to the reader. But other than that, I'm not really sure. Maybe it was— I know in the beginning Lockwood, I think, said he saw either a little girl or some sort of ghost-like being, and I'm still not sure if that was like real or a ghost, but I feel like maybe that would have been to like enhance the spooky effect of weathering heights, but other than that, I'm not really sure.

Just to talk about the spooky effect, we've got on the one hand, you know, obviously the, the land and the weather and the houses and the gloom, and, you know, we talked about that before. We've got, as you mentioned, the sort of ghost-like sorts of things here and there, but then we've got Heathcliff's extended hatred over generations. Does it make sense that I mean, is it— is there something different about kind of the ghost-like and the dramatic landscape, scenescape, and Heathcliff's two generations of bitterness and misery? I mean, is that— have you ever heard the adjective gothic, like a gothic novel?

I think so, and I've kind of associated that with like dark and gloomy and like not very bright, but I'm not sure if that's right.

Well, this is regarded as kind of a Gothic novel because dark and gloomy and yeah, and the ghosty thing. And but part of dark is not just dark in the, you know, dark at night, you know, dark in the winter, that kind of thing. But I would say a lot of Heathcliff's behavior and motives, I would say, is it fair to call Heathcliff's behavior and motives fairly dark?

Yes, definitely dark for sure.

Oh, um, so yeah, it's— what are you left with at the end of this? Are you glad you read this? Do you regret reading it? Um, would you reread it again someday? Would you like to read novels like it or stay away from novels like this? What are you left with?

I don't regret it. I did like it because I've never really read anything like this. Um, I'd definitely be open to reading more. And I can't wait to watch the movie. Have you read the many interpretations of the movie?

Have you read anything about the movie?

No, nothing.

So I actually did, uh, read a couple reviews about the movie. It is actually titled, uh, Wuthering Heights in quotation marks because it's an adaptation. They change a lot of plot details, so don't expect the plot details to be similar. And apparently there have been lots of different movies, uh, based on this novel, and some people say this is not the best of them, but it just came out. So, um, are you gonna go watch the movie?

I'll go watch a couple different adaptations and see what I like.

Okay. Is it the sort of thing where you go to the theater and watch with friends, or do you watch online?

I'll probably watch it online if we have it.

Okay. Well, um, I may skip it. I'll let you watch it, and then if you think it's great, maybe I'll watch it. Otherwise, I'm happy reading reviews. Okay, well, let me, let me think about— I'll make suggestions in WhatsApp about next one, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. Well, it was, it was a long strange trip, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it was interesting.

Much stranger than anything we've read so far. So thanks for being on the journey with me, and we'll figure out something next.

Okay, okay, thank you.

You too.

Bye.