Sergeant James Booker on Integrity, Prison Politics, and Leading with Character

You got a guy out there, a young lady out there that has probably gone through something similar like you have, and because they heard your story, it gives them hope, it gives them direction, because a lot of people don't know which way to go, which way to turn in order to put themselves in a position to even start the fight.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of MC Unplugged. And today, we're going deep into a story and a path of legacy. We're talking to a former police sergeant who stood alongside my former guest, Mr. Raymond Hicks, as a decorated Broward county sheriff who faced wrongful accusations after exposing internal corruption. Together, they navigated the challenges of integrity with law enforcement, shedding light on systemic issues. Their journey underscores the complexities of upholding justice within the justice system. Please join me in welcoming the courageous, the steadfast, and the principled Mr. James Booker. Sergeant Booker, how are you doing today, sir?

I'm fine, sir. How are you?

I am great. I am honored. Now, I was telling you offline, like, you're someone that I look up to and respect. I have family. Shout out to my cousin, Detective Torrance Jackson, and the Pickens county law enforcement. I have family. That's law enforcement. So law enforcement is something that I've always held dear to my heart. My grandfather was the first black sheriff in our hometown. And so we've always had a tradition within our family of upholding the blue to the highest standard, the highest regard. That also doesn't mean that there aren't issues, right? And those issues, we're not pointing them out per se, but just like anything in the school system, there's issues. In the government, there's issues, right? Like in people's households, there's issues. So this isn't definitely not an attack on anything law enforcement, But I just wanted to tell you face to face, man. Just honored to. To know you. Honored to. To be a part of the legacy that you've created and just would love to hear a little bit about your background. And then we're going to go into the things that you've done, go into some specific situations, and just let you shed light where you want to shed light, brother.

Okay, sounds good.

Awesome. Awesome. So let's talk about Sergeant James Booker. Man, like, where did you grow up? Like, where did this yearning to go into law enforcement start?

Well, I grew up in Pensacola, Florida. I as well come from a law enforcement background. My mother, she was in law enforcement. She retired as a major with the Skill County Sheriff's Department. My Sister, she retired as a lieutenant with the escapement County Sheriff's Department. And my older brother, he worked for atf, and he also worked with the. As an investigator for the state's Attorney's office in Pensacola as well. So that kind of got my path going, because once I left the Marine Corps, you know, I wanted to stay in service. I wanted to do a part in service. I always like to serve. That was my whole thing. And then coming from that background, seeing it as I was a young child, I said that was something that I felt, you know, I could transition into, and that was something I felt I would be good at. So when I got out the service, I looked for an opportunity to get into law enforcement. So I actually. Kind of a short story. I was. Didn't know where I was going. I was on my way to Miami because I heard a lot of things was progressive for African Americans in Miami. So I said, well, you know what? I loaded up my car after three months of being out of service. Didn't know where I was going, didn't have any family. I jumped in my car, and I headed south. So I actually stopped in Gainesville, Florida, and I was at this restaurant called Swags, and it was a breakfast place. So I'm sitting there, and I'm gonna age myself for a second. I'm reading the newspaper. So in the newspaper, they said they was hiring for correction officers. So I'm like, okay, you know what? Let me look into this. Not knowing that the place I applied for was Florida State Prison. And when I went and I did the application, they hired me the same day. Not knowing that they was quite desperate for staff, quite desperate for someone with a background coming from the military that they were looking for. So that started my journey into the correctional process. And that was back in 1983. So that's when I started. So I stayed there, transitioned from Florida State Prison into Gainesville Road Prison, and then from Gainesville Road Prison, then transferred into the Broward County Sheriff's Department. And I got to the Broward County Sheriff's Department in 1986, I believe. 1986. Well, I retired recently. I've been retired now 12 years now this September.

All right, well, one, appreciate everything you've done. Two, congratulations on the retirement. 12 years, right? That's. That's powerful in and of itself. I love, man, like, I'm. I'm fortunate. I've never been to prison. Hopefully never go to prison. Right. But I've heard stories. What are. What's, like, a prison story that you've witnessed that the average person wouldn't even believe or, or could even comprehend.

Well, I love to tell this thing. Most people think in Florida that there's like, you know, multitude of prisons. It's only one prison in the state of Florida. It's only one, and that's Florida State Prison. That is the only building that bears the name prison, which is Florida State Prison. Everything else is a correctional facility or as a work camp or something of that nature. I actually worked at the only prison in the state of Florida.

Wow.

At that prison, it was like the very, very hardcore. And I'm like, again, I'm gonna age myself. These are guys that, as we say, stood on business. These guys, yeah, they, they were not snitches. These guys would kill you at the drop of a hat. You know, they were meant something. They truly lived by code. And their code was serious. And being a young man coming out of the military and going into such a place and coming from a disciplined place, believe it or not, that place has real discipline within the prison community. And I don't think a lot of people understand that you can't do a lot of things because you're an inmate. You can't do certain things like you want to do unless you get permission. Yeah, if a guy want to stab a guy, he got to get permission. He just can't go stab this guy. It doesn't work like that. I think people, when they see tv, they think, oh, this guy, you know, you see a movie and a guy stabbed a guy. No, it's not like that. It's politics. It's big politics. And if you're from a certain part of Florida, then you're basically in that bus with those guys from Miami. Are you in part of Central Florida or wherever you are? And if you're a guy coming in from another state, you got to pick a bus. And it's, it's, it's totally different. And I think people don't really know the dynamics that goes on there. Because if you think about it, you got some of the most rufous guys that you would ever know. Every guy you see on channel 6, 7 and 5 on the 6 o' clock news that did a heinous crime, Most of them ended up there and they all in one place. Just think about that for a minute. You got a lot of predators, a lot of psychopaths, you got a lot of mental health. You got all this in one place. So you got to have order in the order. They basically set the tone for what the order would be. And I know that may not sound wow, right. But honestly, they basically ran the prisons. We just managed it. They ran it, you know, just.

Just 80s Miami alone.

Yes.

Probably populated three fourths of the prison.

Absolutely. Because. Because. Because the cocaine thing blew up during the early 80s.

Yeah.

I mean, it was. It was like a wildfire. The prisons actually couldn't handle it. And I tell you another thing, too, same thing. When AIDS came about, the prison system wasn't ready for it, and it blew up. And I mean, it blew up. And that's a dynamic that you don't even think about, that guys coming in and they. And they're sick and they get aids, and it's like, okay, how do you deal with this? Because it was like crack cocaine. It took off like a wildfire, you know, But. And I tell you quick little story. When I first got there and in Florida State Prison, I was getting my age myself. I'm young. Most of the guys who work there, these guys were bricklayers, they were mechanics. These guys had jobs. They were older men. So I'm basically a kid when I walked in there.

Yeah.

And so it was. It was one of those situations where when you're coming in, being a young guy, it was very few of us, you know, we. We were looked down upon because it's like, okay, you here to take our job? No, I'm here to work, you know. Right. So a lot of the older guys, they were very threatened by younger guys coming in because we could relate to the inmate population because we weren't much older, if we were not the same age than most of the guys who was incarcerated. So it wasn't that adversarial thing where we were in conflict with them because we listened to the same music, we knew the same people. Meaning when I mean, new and the same people, like people who were like, in the music industry, that type of thing, we knew. So in a lot of the older guys, they were disconnected, and all they knew was pounding ground. You know, guys like. Like dogs treat them like, you know, mess, you know, pound on them if they had the opportunity. So, you know, a lot of that went on, you know, because they couldn't relate to these guys. You know, it was. It was a different environment.

So you said something, man. And I want to elaborate on. So you said something again of movies. Right. But like you said, the inmates pretty much ran the prison. Like, can you give us an example? Obviously not naming names or anything like that, but can you give an example of what you mean by the inmates were running the show.

Well, like I said, we won't name any names, but like, this particular fellow happened to be out of Miami and this guy was in there, if I recall, he was in there for like a triple murder. And this guy had huge hands, big hands. And what they did when I was working there is guys, if you had a beef with a guy, we would actually have boxing where guys could actually box. Well, this guy was like the, the champ of the. He was the champ of the prison.

Yeah.

So when this guy went to. When he went to take a shower, he went with a entourage of people to take a shot. I mean, this guy was like a, like a kingpin, basically, in prison where he called, he called the shots. He was a shot caller, you know, and if it was food, if it was drugs, if it was hooch, whatever moved through that, through that bus, it had to go through him in order to move.

Okay.

And I mean, and, and us working there, we knew who was who, but they. That's actually his question. If he can't be there, where we. Where would we send him? That was the worst of the worst. It's not like we can say, okay, we're going to send you to another camp. No, this is it. There's no other place like this place, you know, and this, I mean, that place is an amazing place. And I think you never see any documentaries on it. You never see telling stories about it. You never see cameras there. Because the thing is, society really doesn't want to know. It's more rapes, more assaults, more murders that happened at that prison in all the Bradford county, which. Where the prison is located. It was assault every single day. Every day. And. But it was never reported. Nothing ever got to the newspaper. Nobody never knew about the assaults, you know, because basically nobody really wanted to know.

Right?

Nobody really wanted to know.

I mean, what else are you going to do? They're already there.

There was no, at that time, there was no reporting system to say, okay, well, we had, you know, know 80 assaults this month. Somebody reported it. It was just assaults. Yeah, you know, and we clean it up and we going to the next day, you know, but it was, it was a serious environment, you know, Very serious. Yeah, but they ran. They. Like I said, they ran everything. I mean, you know, and the thing was, like, certain officers, like, if they say, hey, I don't want this guy working here, we couldn't put him down there. And it's not because they're telling us what to do. We need to protect this person. Because we don't want him getting killed. Because I'll tell you this, I'll never forget this story, man. When I. When I was working there, we had this officer, he was coming on shift. Prior to him coming on shift, it was visitation day. Where back then, an inmate only got one visit per month, so they had to shave. Well, you know, black men, they suffer from shaving problems. They get. They get. They get. Their face gets swollen. So this guy said, hey, I can't shave. So if you don't shave, you can't have your visit, okay? So he said, the next officer come down here, I'm gonna kill him. We changed shifts, the officer came down. Not disinformation, wasn't passed on. Yeah, he got killed. He got killed that day. A wife and two kids. I'll never forget it. Wow. I'll never forget it, you know, I mean, there's some stories, man, and I'll never forget this story. When I first started working them, it was Christmas Eve night. These twin mates had an argument from back in 1978. They got a vent system now. Remind you, I told you, I didn't start working there too, till 83. Right. Okay.

Five year. Five year build up.

Yes. And what they would do is they got this thing where they talk through the fence, where you can be on a whole separate area. But the events, they travel. So I can have a conversation with you and not even know you, and we can get a beef going because there's nothing else to do but have a beach, Right? So these two guys ended up getting housed together. Staff didn't know they had a beef. And this guy took a homemade knife that looked like a sword and he ran it through this guy on Christmas Eve night. That is the first time I ever seen someone get killed in prison. Blood flew out of him like it was water. I'd never seen anything like that. Now you're talking about something. Look like a movie. It. You want to see how fast blood goes out the human body hit the right organ and see how much blood come out of it. He killed right there on Christmas Eve night. I'll never forget it. That was my awakening to the prison system. And it was something to see because it was like, man, he just killed this guy like it was nothing, you know? And he. He was never getting out anyway, right?

Where else is he going?

Where else is he going, you know? So it's a lot of stories, man. I mean, I could load you up with stories that I saw, man, that things happened in that place, man. And it was just like. Just like business, normal business, you know, like it was nothing.

Yeah, I'm gonna wait till the documentary comes out. I don't want to know anymore. So your documentary comes out. You told the world. So you leave there and you go then to Broward County, I'm assuming.

Right.

So. So what was the decision to leave prison to go to Broward County?

You know, the main factor was I wanted a better environment because at the time, I'm young and up in South Florida. Like I said from what I've gotten was, hey, man, that place is really progressive. So coming out of. And I don't know if you're familiar with the location of where Florida State Prison is, but it's in Bradford county, which is right outside of Gainesville. Yeah, well, it's. It's kind of. It's country, and so it's not a lot to do there for a young person. So the sheriff's Department, Broward Sheriff's Department was hiring. So I made the decision. I said, you know what, let me put an application in. And. And. And obviously the pay was a whole lot better. And so I put in, I got selected, and I went down, I took the job. So that's how I ended up down in Broward County.

Awesome. Awesome. So when you said outside of Gainesville, there's a small little college and university there, we're not allowed to talk about here, Go Hills and go Dogs. But for all my Bulldog fans, you know, the college I'm talking about in Gainesville, we're not allowed to talk about. But so you're at Broward, man. So what is it like there? Obviously, it's a different environment. Right. So walk us through a little bit of the first few years of Broward.

And what that's like, getting there. The Brown Sheriff's office was in a transition where they just built. Built a brand new facility. They were in need of a lot of people because. Because, like I said, because of cocaine and all those different things, everything was exploding. And the facilities were, you know, bigger facilities were needed for, you know, to accommodate, you know, the arrestees. So coming in there, I came in with a lot of young, young people my age. Uh, and I also was there with some people that was a little bit older, but most of us are pretty much around the same age in. In. In diameter. But the good part was I had already had experience. So coming in from a prison system, coming into a jail facility was night and day. It was totally night and day where, you know, it was no discipline, it was no because these people were coming off the street, so they. They weren't, like, you know, acclimated to being incarcerated, I should say. You know, it's not like they were like, okay, you know what? I know what to do when I get here. Some of these people are new to the system. Some of these people have been previously, obviously, you know, rearrested, but it wasn't the kind of structure that you would have in prison. Everybody know we eat at this time in prison. Everybody know we go do this at this time. Things in jail is fluid because people don't stay, you know, they come and go with transit, they bond out, they. They go to prison or whatever the case may be, you know, so it was always overchanging, and that's something I had to get used to, because when I. When I was at prison, at the prison system, I knew I had guys that were never going home. You know, their people was coming and going. It was always interchanging, you know. But being in the jail system, it was quite different because you had a lot of laws that you had to learn, a lot of different rules you had to learn versus prison was basically set in 33, 8, which. That was the code that governed the prison at that particular time. Amazing.

So then you're there. How did you meet brother Hicks?

Or.

When was that?

I met. I met Raymond. I was his super. I was his supervisor. So. And, oh, man, I can do nothing. I'm trying to think because that's. That's been so long ago, because, like I say, we were all young because I was. I made supervisor, like, the first two years I was down. Okay, Sergeant. And so Raymond worked under me, and I would say probably 87, 88. I'm thinking maybe the time frame that he was working for me in Raymond, like a lot of the young, young guys who worked up under me. And at this particular time, now I'm becoming one of the older guys because I'm five, six older than them. Yeah, I'm much older now, you know, so these guys, they will go out, they will party, then they call in sick for work, give them the talking to. Okay? They're not getting to talking to now. I got to give them some paperwork. So now my thing will say, hey, press down hard third, copy yours. Take that one for yourself. And believe it or not, I wrote Raymond up. I disciplined him for calling in sick. And that, believe it or not, brought us closer together, because he came to me and said, you know what? I'm so glad you wrote me up, because you made me Realize I have a family and I need this job. And that's how he and I became close, beyond the job. Because I looked at him and I saw, you know, what this guy want to be here.

Yeah.

He understands what this means to have this job, you know, because his family was the most important thing, you know, and, and unfortunately, some of the young fellas that came along, they end up getting terminated because of the, because they was, because of the sick time. And he straightened that part of himself out, you know. And Raymond was, man, let me tell you, Raymond, Raymond was the type of guy at the job. And you see the size of Raymond, right? Yeah, you see the size. He's a massive guy. And back then, you know, it was guys in jail were, were big guys because we had weights in the jails at the time. And these guys work out and then now that they've been working out, they want to test their strength or they want to test themselves, you know, because they feel like, okay, I've been working, I, I gotta see, I gotta put this to use. Let me see what I can do with staff. So a lot of times Raymond was called in because of his strength and his size. And especially when he worked for me. I won't call any names, but I had this particular inmate, he was disrespecting one of the females and he was saying all kind of derogatory things to her, saying whatever he was saying to a vulgar, you know, it was really nasty stuff. So when I came back to work, she said, hey Sarge, listen, this guy, he's, he's been disrespecting me, you know, and while you've been off, I said, okay, no problem, let me talk to him. So I called Raymond down. I say, I need you to come down, come down here to the unit. And then, because we always use strength and numbers, whenever you work in that environment, it's never one on one. And it's another situation where you really don't want to use force. That's the last thing you want to do. But, but you always want to show a use of force. And most guys will back down when they say that use of force or when they see that use of force. So, so this particular guy, he decided he wanted to go ahead and he wanted to put some work in. Okay, well, you know what, let's get at it. And subsequently, you know, it didn't go well. Yeah, it did not go well for him.

Yeah.

And, and, and Raymond was always that guy that, listen, man, loyal, first to come in, always treating these Guys fair with respect because he could have hurt a lot of guys. He was a big guy. Yeah, but that wasn't his, that wasn't his demeanor. His demeanor was not to, to come there and be a bully. That wasn't who he was. Yeah, and, and the thing about it, Raymond was the type of guy, he would help these guys, he would talk to these guys because a lot of these guys he knew because he was from the community. I wasn't from the community, so I didn't know any of these guys. He knew these guys. He grew up with a lot of these guys. So he had their respect, you know. And then a lot of times I can call Raymond down, he could talk to a guy and kill the situation for me. I ain't even got to deal with it. Yeah, you talk to the guy because he had that, that relationship. And that's the thing about working at it in that environment that most people don't understand at that particular time. There was no taser, there was no shield, there was no mace, there was no stun gun. It was none of that. It was your verbal and it was hands on. And no one really wants to go hands on because you know, even if you win the fight, you still can get hurt and no one wants to get hurt, you know, so he was, he was, he was very, very, very good at his job. Man. The man was good, you know, like, I don't know if he ever shared with you this particular lieutenant. They was going to throw this guy off a top tier. Raymond only if ever told you the story or not, but Raymond broke his index finger, saving his lieutenant from getting thrown over the rail.

Wow.

Yeah. That's the type of guy he was. You know what I mean? He was, he was that type of guy. And I mean in any time that they had an issue with a person that they thought was going to be physical, be a problem, he was one of the guys that they called on, you know, they called on him, you know, and the guy was always there, man, you know, and his uniform was always impeccable. He made sure his dress was, was where it needed to be. Because, because me being a supervisor, listen, that's something I enforced. If your uniform wasn't right, that is a problem for me. And at the time we had a scoring system. If your uniform was not what it's supposed to be, I'm going to give you the score you deserve. So whatever that score is, if you get a one, you got a one because you didn't maintain your uniform. That's why you got a one. And I set the example because I wanted you to see what it's supposed to look like. You, you know, look that way every day when you go to work because people are respect. You don't have to know anything, but if you look the part, they'll respect you right off the. Off the bat because you look professional.