Episode 22: Engineering and Industry Domination with Kurt Shafer

From the. Oh, that, that.

Oh, I like that.

You like that?

Yeah, it's like you unzid your pants. It sounded like this. Hold on.

Oh, dude, no, I'm not doing it. Wow.

The trick is you put your. You put your fingernail over your zipper and you go. And it sounds like you're unzipping your pants, but you're really not.

You're really not. Wow. From the studios of Fractal Recording, this is the Profit first podcast, episode 22.

Oh, I was laying the trigger.

You were laying the trigger, dude, you thought I didn't unzip my pants? You did, dude. I stood up to do the finger over the zipper trick. And you like. Oh, my God, dude.

Unbelievable. We're keeping that in, right?

No, we added everything out. Da da da da da. Have you listened to this whole song yet?

Yeah.

Oh, I haven't, but every so often you play like, we'll be in studio.

That's a different part.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, my God. There's like some nice, nice transitions, bridges, solos. Like whoever wrote this song, I mean, worked it right?

It's really cool. So welcome, everyone. The Profit first podcast. I am Chris Kern. I'm the founder of Fractal Recording, or.

As you like to say, Fractal Recording.

Fractal Recording.

I'm Mike Michalowicz and I'm the author of Profit first, among other books. And what we do on this show is we talk about the money side and we have, you know, what's coming.

You know, dude.

Yeah. Hang on till the end of this episode.

Oh, my God.

You're gonna hear if.

If you listen to the last couple weeks, it's gotten more and more intense. But what we talk about is money, man, because money matters. But honestly, we talk about all aspects of business, but it has to funnel down to becoming more profitable. Last week, angie was amazing. 10% profit on a multimillion dollar business and three, four years ago, barely surviving. Yeah, dude, what have you been up to, bro?

Yeah, well, you can find our podcast on itunes and stitcher and our website is profitfirstpodcast.com. yeah, you know, I'm actually publishing a book. I'm publishing a book called Byways of blessedness by James Allen, written in 19. Oh, yeah, and that's a.

That's a copyright. It's not. It's public domain now.

Public domain. It's one of the greatest self help slash spiritual books. James Allen is my. One of my favorite authors. So I'm totally psyched. I'm working on It. Putting it together, you know, designing a cover, it's exciting.

I think that's really cool.

So when it's done, it'll. It'll. It'll. I'll. I'll let everyone know when it's done. So what have you been up to?

Yeah. So I don't know if you can see it right over there, but that's. That coat is what I wore when I did a cattle drive. You ever see City Slickers? What I did now this is back four or five years ago, but I pulled the old jacket because the rainy weather we're having today and threw that on and it's somewhere like I'm a. Between a cattle drive guy or just this weirdo that thinks he's a cowboy walking around the streets of New Jersey.

Right. It looks kind of normal.

Yeah, well, you can't see. I got to. Unlike. I got to lay it out and you'd see it.

We might have to tweet a picture of it or something.

Oh, you know, that's a good idea.

Have you washed it since then? No, no, no.

The fresh smell of cowboy. No, you don't wash it.

It's all.

It's like leather, waterproofed. It's an Australian outback type jacket.

I was wondering what that smell was in the studio.

Yeah.

So we have a great guest. And by the way, we have. I want to personally.

Yeah, you do it this time individually.

Thank our sponsors.

Who are they?

Nextiva. We're going to talk about them a little more later. Nextiva, T Sheets and Fundera, those three companies.

Keep this rolling.

Yeah, they're our sponsors. Really? Cool. And you know what? Call them up and tell them we sent you.

Yeah. Please do say Chris and Mike sent us. Don't. Please do not tell them about the unzipping pants nonsense, but do tell them we sent you. And, you know, I consider them more partners now. Sponsors. Sounds like they're just paying us. Partners pay us with benefits, so. But they keep the show floating, so. Thanks to those guys.

Yeah, thanks.

You know who's on our guest? Who's our guest today?

Our guest. We're psyched. I'm psyched.

You're psyched, because this is the fan guy. When you think of fans, I mean, think of the biggest, greatest fans in U.S. history. And I'm not. I'm not saying sports fans. I am not saying any other kind of fan except for the one that's above your head right now, spinning around, you know, did you ever look up that fan and say, wow, where did that Spinning. Beautiful piece of machinery come from right chances.

How'd they get it to spin like that?

How do they get to spin like that? Is that magic? Is there some kind of God that spins and moves this invisible space called air? No, there isn't. Or maybe there is because that guy's name is Kurt Schaefer. Kurt Schaefer is the founder of Invisco, the whole house, fanguy.com youm gotta check out that website. He's a grad of usc. He's the. Listen, listen to Kurt's background. Kurt is the. He invented the first commercial webcam software called Snap and Send. Remember that?

Wow.

1995. He installed the first whole house fan in 2008. Sold on those things on ebay. He invented the First Attic mounted 30 inch belt drive fan in 2009. And he has trademarked the ultimate cooling machine.

His name is Kurt Shaber.

Welcome to my Kurt.

You guys are having way too much fun.

So did I. Was your bio accurate that I read?

Oh, it was. Especially since I think you read what I sent you.

I know I said Kurt, just send me anything you say. I'll read anything.

What I think is most important to get across to your audience is that the long tailed keyword whole house fans is unique to fans that mount in the attic but are not gable or attic fans. They are fans that pull the hot air out of a house and the cool air in the windows. They are the ultimate window fan.

Nice.

Well, I mean. Nice. I'm confused already.

Really?

Yeah. That sounds like an attic fan to me. Isn't that what an attic fan does?

No. An attic fan simply blows the hot air out of the attic and sucks cooler air in the eaves to cool the attic off. But it doesn't do anything for your home.

Okay, so my parents had. When I was growing up in the 70s, they had a fan that was mounted from the attic down there like louvers going into the house. My father would turn out to be a hot summer day. He turns things on, you're all night. But it would suck in the cool air through the windows and blow it into the attic and out vents up there.

Bingo.

What?

That's it.

That's it.

Oh, is that your fan?

Yes, it is.

Kurt, you've been part of my life since 1970.

Well, the first machine was installed. Machines were installed in the early 1900s. Way before Carrier invented the air conditioner.

Wow.

I got a call from company doing a restoration of a 1903 home in Atlanta, Georgia and they had a 50 inch fan at the top of the stairway.

Wow.

God.

Watch your fingers and hands around.

Yeah, exactly. Watch your torso. They'll take you out.

So another piece of trivia is the amount of air fans blow.

How much blowing? Give me the volume of blowing going.

On here, by the way. You guys will get a kick out of this. What I've been toying with is shouldn't my tagline be invisco fans suck?

It's better than Invisco's fans blow. I like that. So tell. Here's what I got to know. How are you growing your business? Specifically? Like you said, you're the biggest pumpkin in the industry. What were the strategies you used to start becoming the big player in the industry?

Well, the main strategy was to broaden my product line by creating these big machines that would, that would go up in the attic. The second strategy was to branch out into other types of fans. As an example, you've seen barns with cupolas on them.

That's what Chris has. Yes.

Well, I now have cupola fans. No one else in the industry has them.

Let me ask you this, Kurt. You're broadening out. You're broadening your line, you're broadening out. That means a lot more variability in your customers. It sounds like actually you're becoming a one stop shop.

Well, that's exactly a goal of mine and it has helped a great deal. Although I will share with you that my dominance in terms of product line and products has only occurred in the last year. So the world doesn't really know about what I have yet. Wholehousefanguy.com is a website I created years ago for the specific purpose of having a worldview of all machines with absolutely no bias and no opinions, just facts. And that site, on that site, I welcome people to write me, tell me about their home, and I'll give them advice about what fan to use.

Okay, so let's just rewind here. So I'm trying to understand how you're attracting clients. That website isn't promoting your products per se. It's just answering questions about fans.

That's right. If you go there, you'll find all every fan model from every manufacturer in the entire world, including Australia, are on that site. And all there are are facts. No opinions, no sales pitches, nothing.

Then how does that draw business for you ultimately? Or does it?

Well, the beauty of it is that I've proven with my product line that if I have a better product than anyone else, once people go to the whole house fan guy, they gravitate to my company. Invisco. Why? Well, primarily my variable speed. That's a big sales really.

Now maybe for commercial users. I can see that there's a home user really care about variable speed. I mean when I see. Do you mean infinite speed when you say variable speed?

Well, it's infinitely variable between slow and fast. So it's not an infinite number of speeds. The RPM of the motor limits the top speed.

I gotcha. But that there's mass appeal to this infinite variable speed.

Well, I can't tell you it's mass appeal. All I can tell you is that it gives me a heck of an edge.

Yeah, but for who? Who wants that?

Well, I'll give you an example. I got a call from a lady in north of here who has a two story with four bedrooms upstairs and she was getting quotes from me and my biggest competitor here and she knew about my variable speed. And so the salesman was in her house and she asked him, do you have variable speed fan? He said, you bet we do. She said, are they infinitely variable? He said, well there are two speeds.

Okay. And then she's like oh, don't pull that one over. Don't pull the wool over my eyes. Two speeds, two speeds. I've seen better than that. I want infinite. Really? That was basically what she said.

That's it, I got the order.

That's it.

Yeah, but, so, but what's the benefit? I still don't get it.

Control.

Well, is it. The primary benefit is that it's unique and people think that they're really going to love it. But there's an even more important benefit and that is that now that I.

Have that cat's attacking you again.

What's that?

What? Something's like there's a cat or something that's hissing at you. We can hear this.

Like are you scraping up against the.

Computer There I was, I was rubbing the dust off my computer.

The old rub the dust. So, so what? So what's the deal yo? This. Yeah.

So here is the most important thing about variable speed.

Yes.

And that is my new invention, SmartSpeed, which is an automatic speed control. And you've got to wonder why has it. Why hasn't anyone done this in 120 years of whole house fans?

Now my daughter likes to bake cakes and stuff. I could see her coming. Daddy, look at all this flour I have here. I'm like, do not walk in our 85 degree room because that fan kicks in. Is there some kind of override? I assume there is.

Oh yes, there's a manual Mode. And your. Your story brings up a funny story because mine wasn't.

It really wasn't. Yeah.

I know a fellow who put in a 30 inch Home Depot six years ago and his wife likes to tell the story about how he turned it on and he had forgotten to open a window. And so all the air came down his chimney and spread his ashes all over the living room.

Oh, my God.

Oops.

Those Home Depot fans, man. Open a window, they do that to you. Well, here we want to test your fan knowledge. We. Because you're familiar with all the different competing fans and stuff, right? Yeah, well, we like to.

Yeah, no, by the way, after, after we test your knowledge. I think we want to get more into the business part.

Yeah, we were going to. We're going to dig in.

Yeah. So the, the technicalities of what you've invented is awesome. But a lot of our listeners want to hear about the business part and the profit and the revenue and all that stuff.

So we're going to play three or four different sounds. We want you to tell us what kind of fan this is. All right, Chris, you just lead us through this, would you? Do you hear that?

What kind of fan is that, Kurt?

He's familiar with that.

That's good, guys. That's good.

That's good.

I would say that it's an air moving machine.

Oh, he's right.

He's right.

It's a fan.

Yeah, but what, what?

It's a box fan.

A box fan. That was a box fan.

Like a freestanding. One of those square, freestanding.

Well, we'll play one more fan sound. How you recognize these sounds? Like a propeller on an airplane.

That does sound exactly like a Cessna taking off.

Interesting. That's just a little, like a little oscillating fan. Like.

Oh, that could be.

Sits on a. On a desk.

Give us one final one here. What do you think about that, Kurt?

Oh, that's an invisco fan. It's so quiet.

Oh, dude. Nicely done.

That's actually a B17 airplane.

Oh, God, that was confusing. So, okay, so that was our transition that didn't work out.

Want to hear some celestial white noise?

1, 1 more, 1 more. That's celestial white noise.

Celestial white noise. I thought that's what you hear in space maybe. Oh, I don't know.

Doesn't it bother you that your wall is so empty now that you've taken all of this stuff off the wall?

Yeah, it does kind of feel that way. We're really digging deep for whatever find here, and there's not Much left. All right, Kurt, tell us about the business. When you and I were emailing back and forth, first you did have me when you said I read the pumpkin plan, but then you talked about this explosive growth. Tell us more about your growth and what you've done to grow your business so well in such a unique niche.

Well, the direct answer is that my sales growth has not been explosive. My product development has been explosive. But I've diligently gone after very specific outlets to increase my sales. For instance, I got A list of 200 installers and dealers all over the United States who install and deal in my competitors lines.

Ah, like this. Give me the dirty details.

So I contacted every one of them by phone and by. Hang on one second.

Calling you right now.

There he is. They don't want a fan.

That's it. So I went after them and I called and wrote them all. And I actually landed a deal with three dealers two years ago. And one of them actually helped me a little bit. But in general, no one really stepped up to the plate because they were so happy with the company they were with. One of them. Very, very important local contractor told me he was doing so well with my competitor that he wouldn't consider switching to me. And I didn't really ask him to switch. I just said, hey, add me to your product line. Sell some of mine. Well, guys, that was two and a half or three years ago. He called me a month ago, said I want to meet with you. And we met and he told me that he had become very disenchanted with the company he was with to stop dealing in their product and he was going to bring all of his business to me this year. This isn't just good, this is huge.

Okay?

If I get 20% of what he did last year, my business doubles this year.

Free fans for everybody.

Wow.

So what triggered that pain for him? Did he give you any details why he's disenchanted with this current guy so you don't repeat that same mistake?

Very, very few. And I can't make any of it public.

Okay, so he gave you a few details. How did he remember you two and a half years later?

Oh, well, I'm sure that he's been watching my website, watching my plans change, watching everything I was doing. Because as you know, the fabulous part about the Internet is it makes everybody big and small look the same.

That's true. That is true.

So that's been a huge leveling of the playing field for me.

So this guy must be a little bit Nervous about starting a new relationship, an established relationship that fell apart. He's now going with you. He probably wants to dip his toe in the water. How are you making this transition safe for him?

Well, it's a good question and the direct answer is that he came to me with a request for quote from a group of people who have cabins and want to replace their rooftop mounted units. And they have 20 cabins. So this is not a small deal.

But it's not massive either. It's 20 times your units go for up to 2000 thing you said. So this may be a 40,000 doll deal or smaller.

In this case that's 800. So this is a 16 grand deal.

Okay, so it's not a small deal, but for the volume this guy does, I assume it's a smaller project.

Oh yeah.

Now what are you going to do to wow him?

What I did was I put together a prototype which I just shipped yesterday and it, it works better than the competitor that he had. It's built better and it has variable speed which the customer loves. And so when he gets it, he is going to love it and order a bunch more.

How about profitability? I mean, as your business is growing, you're now breaking into the main vein, if you will, of leads and opportunities through this dealer network. How are you ensuring profitability so that you got more money coming into your pocket?

I'm very lucky in that respect. Here are some facts. My, my primary competitor has prices that are so high that I can build these Systems for about 30 to 40% of that sale price.

But for the customer, they're used to this higher price from your competitor. So you can stay around that same selling price.

Absolutely. I don't cut their price. I don't. In fact, my prices are all within a few dollars of theirs for each performance point. And they have a corporate philosophy that might drive them out of business. I don't know. But they're offering up to 50% discount off their list price.

Wow.

Which is great. Which is really crazy in my mind. So instead of paying and they're giving that to their dealers. So they're for a, as an example, their $800 fan, they'll send it, send it out the door for about 5 or 600, 4 to 500 and I'll send it out the door for 800.

And so the dealer then puts a markup on that for their margin. But they make more money in the installation I assume. Right.

They do. Remember they're not, they don't mark it up because the list Price is the list price, and everyone figures they have to pay that. So the dealer. The dealer not only gets to sell this fan for $800 list price, but he gets to install it for 3, 4, $500, and he's getting 4 or 500 off from the company. So bottom line is, if I sell mine for list price and don't discount to a dealer or just give a dealer a little discount, then I put the rest of the money in my pocket as profit.

Now, how many years did you have this business? Have you had your business?

Well, I sold my first fan in October of 2008.

Okay. So it's seven years. Now. Looking back, Kurt, as my kind of final question to you, looking back from today to 2008, seven years have passed. What would you recommend for people listening and for yourself that you have done differently to grow like you are now and to achieve the profitability you are now?

Wow. The direct answer is there are very few steps I took that were bad, other than creating untested systems and putting them in attics and. And figuring out that they don't didn't work as well as. As I was hoping they would. Because in the end, I'm an inventor. I'm also a fairly good salesman. But as an inventor, I love this business because I get to create stuff. That's your. What would I do differently? In 08, I wasn't really working it. In 09, I wasn't really working it. In 10, I was working it, but not. I didn't have the product line. In 11, I expanded my product line to more performance points, and then in 11, I invented the large structure. So I really have only been working it since 11. Four years. Three years. 11, 12, 13, 14.

And this past year is when you're really hitting it. So it does take time, it sounds like.

So it's. It's a, It's a fascinating adventure, I'll tell you.

Definitely.

Yeah. Hey, the riches are in the niches. Kurt, if people want to learn more about you, where should they go?

Oh, well, definitely go to invisco.com invisco.

And if you want to learn about fans in General, go to wholehousefanguy.com and I know you're on LinkedIn. We're LinkedIn Buddies. And he's on also Twitter. Kurt Schaefer 1 Kurt, absolute pleasure having you. Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you.

Thanks, Kurt.

So, wow.

Yes.

You always say, you know, every call afterwards you're like, wow.

I do say wow. Wow.

That's your go to word hey, now you're gonna go, wow. After we have a little conversation at halftime.

All I have to say, if you're listening right now, don't stop listening.

Good.

Don't you put your kid next to the speaker. You turn off your phone, you turn off the email, and you get ready to listen, because we're gonna have a conversation.

I am. Here's what I learned, dude. And we'll talk about our sponsors, but not yet. Yes, here's what I learned. Kurt tapped into the vein of his industry, which is the installer dealers. And he didn't really speak to this. It sounds like he sent out a letter once and then never again. Somehow he was staying in front of these folks. He said they were paying attention to him. But I wonder how the day you send out that mailer isn't the day you're going to get the business. Because the dealer, the person you're trying to sell to, has to have a need. Sometimes it's two and a half years later. One thing is profitability is stick to itness.

Absolutely. Yeah. And he approached different dealers, and the one came back to him. You know, he said, he's definitely an inventor at heart. You can hear. You can hear that, and you can feel that.

And a cat lover that scratched.

Oh, gee. And he, you know, he pushed the envelope. Think about that.

Well, here's what's funny.

He built a bigger fan. He built better functionality. Seriously, he pushed the envelope.

He pushed the envelope.

So that's. That's something I got from it.

I was trying to get to one of those Nigel Tufnell jokes. I was like, oh, was your fan a little bigger? And then he says, no, it was way bigger. I was hoping he'd say, yeah, it's a little bigger. I'm like, did you turn up to 11?

Our fans go to 11.

Why not just have it at 10?

Go faster at 10? No, this one goes to 11.

Goes to 11. You know, this is what I thought was funny and also absurd at the same time. He was talking about how his customers like variable speed, infinite variable speed, and, like, why they want it. And quite frankly, I don't think he knows the answer. He's like, well, because they want it, right? That's the absurd thing. Consumers notice different. That's a big lesson when it comes to sales. They notice different. And there's an appeal to something different. If you and I are looking out the studio window, we can see cars driving by the highway. If a giraffe walks down there, we will notice, and we'll Stare out that window and go, what's going on? Giraffes are not the best form of transport. Like you don't want a giraffe in New Jersey and be walking down the highway. But we will notice and say, oh, that's cool, man. Man, we'll talk about it.

Yeah.

When you have a difference, people notice and like to consume it. Right.

Reminds me of my friend who plays guitar. He had this called a power soak. It would actually, he could turn his amp up really loud, but he would turn down the power so it got lower. So he got really nasty distortion, but it was at a low volume.

I love that.

It's pretty cool.

I love that.

Infinite. Infinite. So. So right now.

Oh, yeah. I want to thank nextiva. They're a voiceover. Micah, you're getting up, you're getting ready for the next bit.

You're standing up.

I'm getting all ready. Yeah. Because this next bit, I gotta get fully into it. So hang on, listeners, this is gonna be awesome. Nextiva voiceover IP phone provider. I've used them for years. Reached out to them one day and said, you gotta become a sponsor. And they're like, yeah, absolutely. They've been with us for 22 episodes. I mean, they're just hanging in tight. If you need a phone system, you should be checking out voip. If you're checking out voip, check out nextiva. N E X T I V A dot com. I also want to thank Fundera. They are a one stop funding source. They again renewed with us as a corporate partner and are supporting the show. So we need funds.

We should.

I know, I know. Can you. So if you need to get funds for your business, go to fundera.com they do all the hard work, shopping it out for you and they come back and say, here's where we found funds for you, here's where he has approved you. Your money's available. And then tsheets T sheets is a time tracking system so you can track the time of your employees. Which if you're a one man band, is still important because as you do projects for different clients, you need to track what time you're doing what. So that's what the system does.

Right? The time is. Time is everything. And T sheets help.

Yeah.

And you need to account for it.

Yeah. So right now, you, the listener, it's halftime. And you're coming off, you're coming on, you're coming off the, coming off the field and you're coming into the locker room with me and have a seat Here with. With the other people, with the other players. And. Oh, here comes the coach. He's. We're gonna see what the coach is gonna say. He's. The coach is gonna give us a halftime speech. So sit here. Sometimes, you know, he gets a little animated, so just relax. So. So the deal is we've been. We've all been in business, and it's halftime in our business. And here comes the coach now.

You sit down now.

If you don't know my name, it's Bobby Knight spelled with two O's. B, O, O, P. Listen to me. Put down your coffee. Put down. Turn off the email. I am not here to f around.

This way we run into business.

Now, here's the deal. If you want to be successful, you better be successful. This is what you need to do. It's about reciprocity. Reciprocity.

Reciprocity. Come closer. No, closer. Closer.

Don't get too close to me.

Here's what you do.

It's called reciprocity. Reciprocity is where you give to your duck and you're not giving enough. You are. You call yourself an entrepreneur? You make me sick.

You have to give, and what you.

Give, you get back. You want to be profitable, you have to make your clients profitable. You want to be successful, you want to have success? Do you want this business or not? God, I did not commit ever out this way.

Reciprocity.

Now you go back into that game of yours called entrepreneurship. You go back and grow your business. It's now the second half. And if you want to be successful, give customers what you want to get, make them achieve what you want to achieve, and you will have it. It's called reciprocity.

Oh, my God. Wow. What a performance by our coach. Man. I'm psyched to get back in the game.

Dude, that guy was awesome.

Yeah.

God.

What's it. Who was that coach?

Bobby Knight.

Bobby Knight?

Yeah.

Spelled two O's.

I heard him say that's you.

That's him.

That's. Oh, that was him.

He walked off.

Yeah. It wasn't you?

No, I was just sitting here sweating.

Coach left the room. That was awesome. You spit all over that mic there.

If you want.

Love it.

God. If you want to learn more about Chris Curran, go to Fractal Recording dot com.

That's right. Producing podcasts for businesses.

And you're rocking the world with profit first professionals. If you need to drive profit in your business, God sake, go to profit.com and we'll take care of you.

You're not here to mess around this week, are you?

No, I am fired up, man. Dudes, thanks for joining us. Come back for episode 23. In the meantime, get your pets neutered and spayed.

Oh, I love that little thing there. All right, thanks for listening, everybody. Take.

So. So. All right, so we're back. This is just between me, you, and Chris, okay? Kurt's not loving.

And now everyone.

And now everyone. So we were talking about Kurt's tagline of my fan. The Invesco fans suck. So Chris and I have been working on taglines. I'm thinking he can also use the word thrust. Oh, the hardest. The strongest thrust ever in the industry. That sucks. How about that one? Invesco fans. The hardest thrust you'll ever experience in an industry. That absolutely sucks.

Thrusting innovation.

Thrusting innovation forward and back and forward and back. How about that.

In silence. It's a silent fan.

The fan that you cannot hear until it thrusts you with its sucking motion. He didn't like the blow. Like, when I said, I like. I think it's better to say your fan blows. He's like, that's stupid. He's like, there's no humor in that. What a tough industry to be in.

He should make a video and sit next to a fan, be like. And he's trying to talk over the fan. That'd be great. That's genius on.

Let me try it.

Wait.

I like. Like. Like a real. You should do like, a brilliant.

Like this one. The Inviso fans are exceptional in terms of afford. Oh.

Oh, no. He should do it where he talks to the fan goes, you know, like that. So turn the fan back on.

I am your father, and he. He thought this one was a. Was an airplane.

What? That's not an airplane. That. That's. That's an oscillating fan.

Yeah.

Give me some other fan sounds that we could have had. What else you got? There's something my way.

Celestial.

I love celestial white noise. Right? He's like, oh, clearly, that's my fan. Clearly, that's an invisible. Oh, that was funny. That was funny.