Episode 241: Exploring Why People Buy with Mo Bunnell

Aren't you fed up with calling a business only to reach a voicemail, phone tree, automated system? Or worse, someone who sounds busy, bored, or actually annoyed you are calling. I can't believe how many businesses we interact with spend money marketing to drive phone calls and then completely fail at handling those calls. A full time assistant costs a lot of money, but at a fraction of the cost. Abby Connect provides businesses with a world class, professional and courteous team of receptionists specifically trained to take their calls. Based in the 247 city of Las Vegas, AbConnect has been wowing business callers for over 13 years. No wonder they are the highest rated live receptionist service for our listeners. Abby Connect is offering a no obligation free trial. And after your trial is over, our listeners will also receive $95 off their first bill, but only when you sign up at our special link. Abbyconnect.com profit first. That's abbyconnect.com profit first. Sign up today to experience the difference. In today's episode, we're going to talk about the sales funnel, but not like the traditional old school one. We're going to talk about the snowball system with Mo Bunnel, baby. You're about to hear all that and so much more on today's episode of Entrepreneurship Elevated. Oh, no, I don't have the right button. Ready, Kels? I messed this up totally. Ah, there it is. Oh, yes, yes. I recovered. I'm Jack today. Kelsey. Great. Who. Who am I? You're like, who's this Jack guy? My name is Mike Michalis. I am the author of, well, a mix of books including Clockwork and Profit first and others. And I have a singular mission. I will carry this mission to the day of my final breath. And it is to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty. You know, that perception that entrepreneurs are wildly successful, making all the money in the world. They sit on the beach drinking Mai tais because they have all the time in the world. The reality is the polar opposite. We're fixing that. We're making entrepreneurs wealthy, healthy, happy, all that stuff. And I'm joined in studio with my dear friend and colleague, Kelsey Ayers.

Hello, friends. You can find us on itunes. Stitcher, TuneIn radio, entrepreneurshipelevatedpodcast.com and we're also on. What's that one? Spotify or iHeartradio.

So. And we're on Amazon's Alexa. I listen to us.

Oh, cool.

So I was, I was hitting the gym yesterday and I was like, you know, I'm tired just listening to same music. You ever notice that you get in this pattern of listening to same music. I'm like, okay, if I listen. Yeah. If I listen to Janet Jackson one more time.

Nasty.

The Nasty Girls. That was Nasty Boys. I yell nasty girls because I'm a nasty girl. So I'm like, if I have to listen to Nasty Boys one more time. So I'm like, I'll listen to a podcast. You know what I really like, though?

Rhythm Nation.

Oh, I love. I love Janet Jackson. I think the wardrobe malfunction was such bs. It was such bs. It was so staged. It was so staged. So I'm in the gym and I'm like, I'm going to listen to a podcast. And then I go blank. I'm like, what's. What's that one I love by Mike Rowe? I can't remember the name. What's it I want to love? I can't remember. The only one I could remember was formerly known as the Profit first podcast. Now entrepreneurship elevated. So I go, alexa. And anyone that's playing this right now over, like, their phone or something, it has Alexa Neria. I. I apologize because it's going to trigger off your Alexa by say, alexa, play the Profit first podcast, and boom, it comes right on.

Awesome.

So I listen to us. The only thing is you can't 2 exit like on an Alexa. I don't think. Or maybe you can. Maybe our listeners know. What have you been up to, Chiefy?

Well, last night I had my semi.

Oh, yes.

Book club gala.

Did you? That's why your hair is like that.

Yeah, exactly.

I thought you did it for me. I thought you did it for me and JBONE for the office. No. How was the gal? The book?

Oh, so good.

What book are you reading?

Yeah. So the next one is Everything I Never told you'd by Celeste Ng, which I read another book by her, and it was awesome. So I'm excited about that. But my book that I presented for next year got picked.

What book did you present?

Maya Angelou's Heart of a Woman.

You love Maya Angelou?

I do. I love her so much.

Yeah. I have not read any of her books, so I.

And nobody in my book club had or there was one that had read why the Caged Bird Sings, but otherwise, yeah, nobody ever read it. And I feel like it's like a rite of passage. Everybody should read her.

Oh, yeah. Well, I can't agree or disagree because I haven't read her. So now I got to read her. I started to read more using audible. So it's not reading. It's consuming so much easier. And now I'm exploring fiction books. I used to be just all nonfiction, all business, all the time. I just read the Alchemist.

Yeah. By Paulo Coelho.

Yeah, You've read that?

I love it.

I love that you did the accent, too. Palo Coelo.

Yeah.

Great book.

Yeah. Yeah.

His journey across the desert and all the challenges and that he meets the Alchemist.

I just love him. He became the win talk anywhere.

Who, Paulo?

Yeah.

No, I didn't say.

It's like, very gentle soul.

Well, it's an amazing book. I didn't know he was still alive. I don't know when that book was written, so obviously it's a recent book. Okay. Do you know that we have something special we're offering our listeners?

Yeah, I do know that.

What is it?

It's a book for free to review and send me a screenshot.

It's a bribe. Yeah, it's a big freaking bribe, and people are doing it. You said we're getting 15 or more reviews every, like, episode? Yep. And we don't know how long we can milk this, to be honest. Right. So we get the books from Penguin. Jbone. We go to Penguin. Like, hey, listen, we have someone that wants a book, and would you do it? You know, send it to them? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you do, like, 70, 80 times. Like, what's going on? Right. So we don't know how much longer we can milk it. And you came in to Kal's almost in tears saying, I don't think we. Right. Is that true?

Yes. That's how it happened.

You're almost in tears. Like, I don't think we can do this anymore. Like, maybe we should stop today. I'm like, no, let's keep milking it.

So does anyone from Penguin listen to the podcast?

I don't know. That's the problem. Like, no, they don't. They're like, oh, Mike, you're one of our favorite authors of all time. Like, it's amazing what you do. I'm like, oh, do you like my podcast? Oh, you have one? I'm like, oh, I'm your favorite? Yeah. I'm like, what do you think about my book? Like, oh, we. We haven't read it. We just produced it. I swear it's true. They don't even read my own. Like, listen, Kaushik does. One guy at Penguin reads my book, my editor, but no one else there does. And they're like, oh, it performs so well, so amazing. I'm like, yeah. Have you Read it. Do you like it? Like, no, but.

But I mean, imagine their lives. All they have is books coming at them. They can't read them all.

They haven't come out the wazoo. Yeah, yeah. So they don't. So they don't listen to this. They don't have time to listen to this. But I don't think we can milk them much longer. But here's the chance you have right now. It's email Kelsey. It's Kelsey with a K. K, E, L, S, E, Y. People are emailing me saying, how do you spell Kelsey? So it's K E, L S E ykemicalitz. Now that's even more difficult to spell. But you can figure that one out just by googling it. So Kelsey, mikemichalis.com send a screenshot of your review. So you gotta do the review first, then just include the mailing address and the book you want. It can be Profit First, Clockwork or Pumpkin Plan. Yeah. So pick one of those three and we'll mail right out to you. Do we have any like shout outs?

We do. This comes from an itunes reviewer. Prodigy Tech says this is the the podcast to get motivated, assess your business and start the path to become profitable. The humor of Mike makes this podcast enjoyable, but yet a ton of useful information to take back to your business. If you want to get your business to the next level, this is the show for you.

Oh, I love it. The humor of Mike makes it enjoyable. They didn't say the humor of Kelsey. Interesting, interesting fact. So I got one more thing to share before we go into our guest. Well, a couple more things. You can also get Surge for free. That's another book I've written that was a self published book and you can buy it on Amazon but we're giving that away entirely free too. So why don't you get a two for one deal here, do the review, get a print book. Then you can go to the Mike Michalowicz website or mikemotorbike.com is the shortcut. Go to the top. Once you start navigating around the site, around the top it says get Mike's book for free Surge. Just click on that and enter your email address and we email it to you. So there's no cost, like no shipping, no nothing. You get the entire PDF. I just ask that you don't put on bittorrent, you know, and ruin my career. I trust you. I trust you. So I'm doing a keynote this morning.

Yeah.

And there like I do one or I do like Three or four freebies a year as my rule, right. And I'm booked out on, you know, freebies. Get booked out for 10 years. So I'm like booked out to 20, 30. So this one was booked out a while back, and I worked with this person eight years ago, and no problem, I'll do it. I go there and there's like these fans there that are doing profit first and having a huge success, and they come up and they share the most powerful stories that will just drop you to your knees of struggle and how they've become profitable and so forth. And this one guy is a photographer and he's sharing a story. I'm like, I'm blown away. Then I do. The presentation went really well. People are loving it. At the end, people start saying, I'm like, I'm doing this. I'm excited. And. And one guy, this photographer stands up, he's like, wait, wait, everyone, I've done this. He goes, this is life changing. He goes, but I don't know now I goes, I love cameras so much. I'm buying more cameras than ever before. I can't stop my spend. I'm spending more than ever. So he said he's doing private first, and now he's spending more than ever. It took the wind out of the sales.

Yeah, right?

Yeah.

I think you missed the mark guy.

You missed it. No, but he actually said he had never been profitable before. He's sitting on $25,000 of just profit. And he goes, I just want to buy camera after camera. So my explanation to him was profit is a celebratory account. So you can. If you love buying cameras, Jeremy, you should see his knife collection. Like, knives everywhere. He's a chef. Buy that. But if you buy it, arguing that this is a business expense, it's not. It's just filling that passion you have. So I said, you can, at the end of the quarter, if you want to buy profit and have more cameras, but realize it's a personal decision and you're not putting savings away for your future. You're personal future. You're not maybe saving for your children's college. This is your decision. And that's an okay decision. It's your right.

What do they call that? Was it SAG Narcissism syndrome of accumulating gear.

Oh, I love it.

You just. The actual process of getting the gear is more fulfilling than even using it.

Really.

Like, a lot of musicians will do that.

Like, you know, did you tell them that we needed. We need a camera.

I know. We Definitely need a camera. We'll take it. Why don't you buy and give it to us? Yeah, I know. That's your camera, right? Jeremy Jaybone? Yeah, we use Jay Bone's camera. But, dude, we're doing profit first. Like, we don't have the money yet. We're paying you, right? We do pay you on time.

Just trade him books. Books for camera.

All right, now we gotta get going into the show, so thanks for our corporate partners, nextiva and Receipt Bank. Someone told me that they no longer have as well. It's because of Receipt Bank. We shared that on a couple episodes. Again, how it prevents asphalts. And this guy's like, dude, I find.

This very hard to believe.

No, I swear to you it was. I was traveling somewhere. He's like, he was joking, of course. I don't think he really had asphalt, nor did I inspect. But he just goes. He goes, I don't have asphalt anymore. And like, what? Because I don't remember us talking about that. He's like, receipt bank, dude. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like that episode where he said that you don't have that pile of receipts in your wallet anymore that causes those as wells. He goes, no more. I use Receipt Bank. And so I laughed and we laughed and that was it. And then there's that awkward silence, like, okay, I'll see you later. All right. We'll talk about core partners a little bit, but let's get to the show at hand. Oh, we're right on time. His name is. No. Oh, my gosh. Mo. No, Mun. Mo Bunnel. Right. His name is Mo Bunnell and he's a speaker, consultant and founder and CEO of Bundle Ideal Idea Group, which, by the way, is big, right? Funnel ID Idea Group. God, why am I struggling?

Okay, it's early in the morning.

It's early in the morning and, you know, I'm just super hyper. That's why he helps organizations grow by teaching their highest performers, salespeople, how to bring in more clients and more revenue. He's developed the program after years of testing, peer reviewed research into why people buy and what makes the buying process happen faster, in greater volume and with more enjoyment. Now he's written a book called the Snowball System. And that's what we're going to explore on today's episode with Mo Bunnell. Mo, a big welcome to our show.

Welcome, Mo.

Hey, thanks.

So do you hear? You hear that audience going crazy, right?

It's amazing.

Brian, you better. Our audio engineer better. May make A note. I was listening to an episode on my Alexa and we're talking about the applause and it was cut out. So I blame Brian for not playing that. But, Mo, you heard it, so now it's legit. So let's get right to the business at hand here about a sales funnel. We all hear about these sales funnels. We all need to do it, Mo. But they're all the same. I mean, isn't it the same process? Just attract clients and convert them and you're good to go. Is there really more to it?

Yeah, it's easy, right? You just. You just sort of wish, wish and it happens. That's what you see out there, right?

Yeah. Right. I wish and nothing happens. Yeah, so that's the problem. Like, most people are wishing. And I'll tell you, Mo, so many entrepreneurs, like, I just need to hire a rainmaker and they'll take care of everything. But that doesn't seem to happen or work either.

Well, you nailed it. Yeah. So many people, they start a business because they're real excited. You know, they love a craft. Like you just mentioned a photographer, or maybe it's a wedding planner or a lawyer that's gone off on their own or whatever it is, whatever your deep expertise is, people sort of fall in love with that. And because they don't have a system, they sort of view the business development side of it as magic. You know, like, well, I can't do what Jane does. Jane's good at talking to people. I'm more introverted. For whatever reason, they sort of make up excuses. And for these people that have one foot in delivery of this great craft that they've got, and frankly, they've got one foot in the drumming up of more, finding people to buy it, it's easy to think they can't do it. Or the beady side, or it's easy to think, well, if I just do great work, the phone will ring. And maybe that worked in 1972, but it doesn't work anymore.

And one thing that I thought was really interesting, just as I was originally sniffing out your book Ways back, I went on Amazon, and the one thing that caught me says, it doesn't matter if you're an extrovert or an introvert, you can sell. And I'm like, what? We all have to be extroverts? And I don't think that to be true.

Yeah, I don't. I believe it's a system. And we've seen that in training over 12,000 people all over the world the same Idea of somebody having a core expertise, you know, say it's the photographer. Well, they went through a system. They learned over time. They took tutorials, they had a mentor. They did trial and error. They attacked the craft of photography in a way that they were always striving to get a little better. And the idea that we've got in the snowball system is that business development is a craft. It's a craft that can be fun, that can be fulfilling. It's all about strategically helping others. And the craft around business development is all around behavioral science, psychology, neuroscience. Why do people say yes to certain people and things and not others? And people can learn that they can become great at it, just like their core craft.

All right, so let's dig right into your system. Can you walk us through it?

Yeah. Well, you'd have to get the book to do the whole thing for your viewers. But, you know, there's three big things. And by the way, it fits really well with clockwork. The three big things on the business development side are managing your opportunities, managing your relationships, and most importantly, managing yourself. And if you're doing those things where you're guiding your prospects to hire you, more managing opportunities. If you're investing in your relationships, your entire ecosystem, not just people who buy stuff, but people who refer to others, people who influence purchases, your entire relationship set, that's the second thing. And then the other piece is finding a way to stay on top of this all the time, week over week, even if you're busy. That's managing yourself and hacking your own habits. And if people do those three things while they're also working on the running of the business and having other people help them with that clockwork, then the two in hand in hand are just magic for growth.

Well, you were. You talk about in your book this concept of the seller expert, the one foot in delivery and the other foot in drumming up business. But to me, it almost sounds like you're trying to serve two masters here. But maybe I misunderstand that.

Well, for entrepreneurs, a lot of times the person who's running the show has to do a little bit of both because they're the namesake, they're the person people want to meet. They're the person that's coming up with the great ideas. They're the one who sees the entire business in a way nobody else has or can. And they're also driven because the money comes to them, profit first. Right. So if that person at the top is not selling, if they're not doing business development, they just Try to give it to somebody else. What we see all the time is that ends in frustration. Frustration. It ends up in paying people a lot of money for not getting the results. Nobody can sell. Nobody's in a position to sell. Well, like the person who started the thing, the person that the organization's named after, whatever. And if that person can build the business development skills, learn to love it and be good at it, then they're going to bring in far more profitable business in the kind of business they want than if they try to shift that responsibility to somebody else that's not as equipped or in the right position to be able to do it.

Gotcha. So I'm hearing from you, if you're a small business owner, you have a responsibility to sell.

You do. And if we can reframe that. This is such a core principle of the snowball system. If we can reframe selling as a lot of people think of it as this nasty thing that they're shoving their stuff on other people, like they need to take a shower afterwards or something. If they have that mindset, they're sunk right out of the gate. They need to reframe it as strategically helping people that just haven't. They just don't know that they need to be helped by you yet.

So let's go through these three elements. The managing opportunities, and then we'll go to relationships and then self. So managing opportunities, what does that mean and how do we go about it?

Yeah, so there's a stepwise process in the snowball system. But the high level, all based on behavioral science, psychology, neuroscience, is that the beginning of it is somebody who's buying something. We want to give them something that we call the birthday experience. We want to put them up on a pedestal. People that are. That can be helped by us or get getting beat up all day long, they're getting beat up by their own clients, by their own, the troubles in their business, logistical hiccups, everything else. But when we're in a position to buy something, we're important. That's the one time in your life where somebody might be taking notes about what you say and say, hey, tell me more about that. So we want to start with them and we call that listen and learn. A bunch of research shows that when people are talking about themselves, the pleasure center of their brain lights up. Dr. Diana Tamir is more my favorite researcher in that area. And then if we can take listen and learn and start to talk about how we can solve the person's problems by creating some curiosity Then we'll talk about us. Second, the third step is building everything together. Ton of research shows people buy into what they help create. So there's a stepwise process just within building everything together of how we might be able to solve somebody's problems. Getting little incremental yeses, as opposed to typing up a big proposal and emailing it over and hoping it's right, which doesn't result in a win very often. And then the last piece is gaining approval, which should be just the last little incremental yes that's needed. And if we see if people go through those four steps, listen and learn. First, create curiosity on how you might be able to solve the person's problems. Transition to building what the solution looks like with input from them, input from us, and then gaining approval. Guiding them through that process can be fun. It's just putting your little consulting hat on your problem solving hat. And that's how people get a yes for the meaty, profitable work they want more often than not.

So this one idea you have of helping the customer or having the customer participate in the build of the solution, that's novel. I've never actually heard that. Can we give me an example of how that play out?

Yeah. And let me. Let's have some fun, Mike, because I know you have such a great sense of humor. We can start with what not to do, which is the client. You're at the lunch and the prospect says, hey, can you send me a proposal on that? Well, they don't know what to say. Right. So a lot of times the entrepreneur will say, oh, yeah, sure, sounds great. Well, they haven't even started the dialogue of what really is going to work. So what can work great is covering four things in a very specific order. One is defining with the customer, potential customer, what are your goals for the project? You know, do you need Cadillac? Do you need quick and dirty? You know, there's so many ways to do the work of an entrepreneur. And sometimes there's 10x or 20x difference in fees between starting small and scaling up with a small engagement or going big right out of the gate. And unfortunately, when we type up the proposals ourselves without any input, a lot of times people start really big out of the gate. We may have a major mismatch from square one. So if thing one is defining the goals and getting an incremental yes from the client on that second, what define now that we know the big goals, getting incremental yeses on what's the process? How long is it going to take? What Are the steps. Who's going to do what by when? The third thing is who's going to be involved from your team? Who's going to be involved from our team? And then the fourth thing is money. Talking openly, preferably face to face, at least on the phone and talking about money. And what happens when we type up that proposal and send it over email? We're covering all four things, making tons of guesses. And guess what? The person on the other end looks at first they at the money and they have no idea what went into it. So when you get an incremental yes on the goal before you move to process. Incremental yes there before you move to team. Incremental yes there before you move to money. By the time you talk about money, they're already bought in. And if it was an expensive option, they're excited about it.

So that's fascinating. And what I've seen salespeople do, and when I'm saying salespeople, I'm thinking of Kelsey. I've seen her just go, I know your problems better than you do. Right. Like, I've done this a million times. You customer, just, I'll tell you what you need. And now I'm hearing that. I thought that was a show of confidence, but now I'm hearing that, you know, Kelsey's kind of being an a hole.

Yeah.

Kelsey, you've been so nice to me. Kelsey, I don't know what's going on here.

It's a facade. It's a facade. Mo she always works in the same way. She's nice and then she goes in for the sale. She's a killer.

Well, the science behind this, and of course I'm teaching Kelsey right now. Kelsey comes.

Thank you so much. I need to help.

I'm joking. But Kelsey's been awesome. But the science behind this is amazing. It was discovered in the last decade. It's called the IKEA effect. Michael Norton out of Harvard and some Duke researchers, a bunch of all star researchers combined to create this. And what they found was that people buy into what they helped create. One of the actual studies they did, and they did about a dozen, was they gave people IKEA furniture that was already put together and they asked them to go into fake marketplace and sell it for the highest amount possible. These people, poor people in the study, thought that they were being judged on their negotiation skills. And if you do enough people you can hear, you know, or you can figure out what. What can the average human being sell this piece of IKEA stuff for? Then that's the control group. In the experimental group, they had people do the exact same thing, except they had to put the furniture together themselves before they sold it.

Interesting.

Guess what happened. The people that put that turned that allen wrench and put the drawer in upside down had to take it apart, put it back together. You know, we've all there. The people that. That put that IKEA stuff together themselves then sold it. They sold it for a far higher amount than those that were just given to them.

Yeah.

And I love it. Yeah. So that pulls through with proposals where if we can get those incremental yeses in those four steps we talked about. Well, by the time it comes to signature, you know, the last little yes, then the person's already bought in. They love it. You know, their fingerprints are all over it. And that's the difference.

There was an article that broke today. Now we're recording this in the end of November. This won't broadcast until what, like January? March. Geez.

Okay, so this is like 2022.

Yeah, exactly. 3-20-22. So there was a article that came out about Payless shoes today, this morning. And they made up a fake store, a luxury store called Pelesi. It's P A L E S S I. They put the exact same shoes, not in boxes, they put the same shoes on the shelves, put premiums on, like six or seven hundred dollars. And they brought in celebrities and other people who are looking for premium stuff.

Yeah.

Had them shop. And people were commenting about the quality of the stitch line and all this stuff and bought the shoes. Yeah. Now, this wasn't a scam. They refunded the money and. And the celebrity had the option to donate it to charities, but they were buying 1999 shoes. Like not from 1999, but $19.99 shoes. There's this perception, you know, of price, too, that dictates what people believe you're worth. Do you feel mo that people are selling actually too cheaply? They're undermining themselves by saying, oh, you know, I just need the deal. And they undercut price.

Or is price my market isn't going to be able to pay for more?

Yeah, what about that?

Yes, without a doubt. In fact, we've got a. This, this particular issue, Mike, is so important. There's a whole chapter in the snowball system only on behavioral economics. And what we did is we synthesized all the research and came up with seven key principles around behavioral economics that the person doing the selling, the business developer needs to know what the mental heuristics or Shortcuts are in the buyer's mind so that they know how to price themselves adequately. And in one, in the number one principle, the first one out of the gate is don't self negotiate, charge what you're worth. And the research that we quote in the book is exactly flows from the Palesti experiment. I saw that this morning too and I loved it. So I'm so glad you brought it up. And the first principle is that the number one thing that a buyer uses to try to figure out the value of an object or of a service is price. So we can talk all day long about our clients and our projects and the things we've done before and what our brand is and we can hand our slick marketing stuff. But. But at the end of the day all that is for naught. If we have really high end positioning, but we have really low end pricing, what the research shows is the buyer will view our value as our price.

Interesting.

So if we say we're the best, but we have pricing, that's half the best, everybody goes, oh well, they must not be that good, right?

Yeah, that's fascinating. I want to jump back to managing relationships, the second major part block we have to address. What does that mean exactly? Beyond managing opportunities?

It's super important. What all the research shows is almost everybody manages relationships reactively and people tend to hang out with people they already know. It's uncomfortable to follow up with the person that we met at the conference three weeks ago that hasn't responded to our first outreach, so we sort of avoid it. And that sort of means that we go around and we have lunch with our friends from college or whatnot, and we sort of pretend that we're doing business development. So the better way to tackle it is to create a short list. We call this a protomo list. Protomoy is a fancy word, a Greek word that means first among equals. And when I first stumbled across this, I love that definition, first among equals. So a protomoy list is the quick version of it is somebody takes 60 seconds, an entrepreneur can take 60 seconds and write down, hey, who are the 10 people that are the most important to my business development success? These might people that are, they might be current customers or clients, they might be people that can provide referrals, they might be somebody super networked in the community that you want to explore next. Whatever it is, you write down those 10 names and without the anchoring of who I already know well, this new list of who I should know well then dictates all of our Proactive outreach. And we've got a whole system about how you add value and you're helpful to these people and you're not just asking for stuff, you're helping them achieve their goals. And by doing that, that month over month over month, your new relationship based grows in the areas it should grow as opposed to stagnating with the people that you already know.

Well now what about that sounds like I see that applying to a B2B very clearly. But what about a B2C where I don't have 100 customers, I may have thousands or tens of thousands. Can I still build a relationship with individuals or is there a different approach?

In a B2C you can. So one of my favorite people that I partner with a lot is a guy named Shawn Block. He created an amazing online course called the Focus course and he has a bunch of online properties. Well, his business is his 50,000 person email list or whatever it is and how he adds value through that. Well, he read our book, he's gone through our on our in person courses and things. And one of the biggest things Sean realized when he went through that is that he needs to build out his personal one to one network better. For instance, there are other people that run similar administration, sort of a tangential aligned with the same kind of people that are on Sean's list, but they do different things. Well, he needs to strike up relationships with those other business owners that they can cross promote. Well, that's a one to one relationship at the top. But they both might be impacting 50 or 100,000 people on their email list or whatever it is, whatever their total network is online. But the big breakthroughs were Sean weren't actually doing more stuff online, just with himself. His big breakthroughs were partnering with other people doing similar things. So Sean created a mastermind group of a dozen other business owners working to establish credibility and relationships with the same online audiences. He got them together in Breckenridge. His business has exploded because he was already doing most of the things that he could do that was sort of B2C ish. And he needed to partner with people that they could mutually help each other grow their businesses. But that was really a one to one relationship. So as his protomoid list became people that were doing similar things with similar people and he could do that alongside of all the stuff he was already doing.

Bazinga. You got the Bazinga. That was Kelsey actually. She was nodding. Yeah, yeah, it's on the video. We also broadcast this on YouTube. That's a shout out for you, Jay Bone. And Kelsey was nodding her head. So he got a bazinga. You know, it's interesting is I think like that coffee shop owner who may not know all the patrons that come in there, maybe know some or recognizes some faces, could set a relationship with the wine cellar down the street and say, listen, listen, I'll promote you for the evening drinks. You promote me for the morning drinks. And they both have access to these large bases of patrons. They can be exchanging patrons. That's what I'm hearing from what you just shared. Is that true?

Oh, you just nailed it. So it could be the wine owner, it could be that employer a block away that 25% of your business comes from. And you go to them and say, hey, I'll give you a special disc. Go to HR and say, I'll give you a special discount card for your people that come into ours. And we're going to treat them with white gloves. It might mean that they need to get into some catering that they hadn't got before with strong business owners. So there's all these options of, yeah, they're B2C, but there's all these. If they really thought about it, there's probably 10 relationships in their community that would double or triple their business. The meaty, profitable work, catering, you know, things like that, that take less time and make more money. But those are human beings. Those are people that we need to foster those relationships, figure out what their goals are and then how we can tuck our services in a way that helps them accomplish their goals and makes them look awesome. And those are typically the big breakthroughs that can happen in almost any business.

What about managing self? What did you mean by that?

Yeah, this will be fun because you do the same thing. The managing yourself part is for these people that are experts in something. You know, they're the photographer, they're the coffee person or whatever. It's easy to fall in love with your craft and only work on that. You know, we're going to come up with a new coffee or we're going to come up with a new drink for the holidays or whatever it is. But it's so hard, especially when you're busy, to keep on the business development side. So these people that are in the hybrid roles, the way business development works is we've got to do a little bit all the time, even when we're busy. The metaphor we use is staying in shape. You can't do nothing for three months and just go try to run 12 miles on a Random Saturday and stay in shape, your butt will hurt and you're not going to get much accomplished. So the way somebody can hack their own habits to focus on BD super simple is to take 15 minutes once a week, close your laptop, get out a pen and paper and write down. I'll look at my opportunities list and I'll look at my protomo list, the two things we talked about, and I'll look at the next incremental step I can do proactively for each opportunity in each relationship. So I've got 20 ideas or whatever it is, and then I'll just write down what are the three things I'm going to hold myself accountable for next week. And then at the end of that week, I'll measure how many of the three I got done and what are my three for the next week. And what we find is that little exercise that takes three minutes. You can measure it. It's sort of your leading indicator. It's if you're staying in shape, how many runs am I going on and tracking that? Or whatever we want to track that little leading indicator. If we do it every week, week over week, we might have 150 or so more little things we're doing every week throughout the year. And people can blow the doors off their business if they just hack their habits with that one simple little ritual.

You share in your book, the snowball system that rainmakers hack their own habits to succeed. What did that mean?

Yeah, it means figuring out what you can track. Like in that last example, it was three things once a week. But other examples might be how many times did I ask for a referral? How many hours am I spending on business development each week? There's about 10 examples in the book of great measurements of what we call leading indicators, things we can 100% control. And picking one or two of those leading indicators that works for your business and then measuring it it on a weekly basis is how you hack your own habits. You're sort of gamifying business development so you're drawn to it a little bit more. And even crazy entrepreneurs that are very innovative and strategic like I think you are, and I know I am, the data shows it. I resist process. But what I found was that when I do that one little thing once a week, I'm much more effective and much more strategic with my time. And in these training of 12,000 plus people around the world, we find the same thing, that no matter where you're at in your business, no matter how you think, if weekly you're hacking your habits, meaning doing something around business development a little bit all the time, week over week. That's when people blow the doors off. It's when it's. I'll paint a picture of the other side. It's when it's when you ignore business development for three months because you're working on your core craft. That's when your business tanks.

You know, Mo, a lot of people don't know that you've developed a system really around behavior and numbers. You were an actuarial and as a science major back in college, right?

I was, I was, I took all the actuarial exams. Actuarial exams, it takes like a decade and it was painful. My wife still reminds me of those, you know, studying 1200 hours a year or whatever it was being in a dark room. But, but it was worth it because it, it taught me long term mathematical processes and how to, how to think things through in, in statistical ways. When it comes to selling and business development. It's a super interesting perspective when it comes to bd.

And you're a graduate of Virginia Tech, right?

No, Ball State University.

What? You're supposed to say yes because all the smartest people come from Virginia Tech.

No, no, no, no. Ball State.

You know, it's the Ball State's.

Okay, we're in Indiana.

Yeah. We recruit your players to play for our football team. But. Okay, Mo, it was such a joy talking with you. Before we let you go, where can our listeners get your book? And I know you have more than just the Snowball system book available. You also provide services. So how do we, how do we dive into this with you?

Yeah, awesome. You know, there's two free or almost free ways to get started. You know, the book is less than 20 bucks on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and everywhere else. And people can go to snowballsystem.com to see that the totally free way to get engaged is we've got a free eight part video series that people get via email when they sign up for our email list and that's@createdemandcourse.com createdemandcourse.com we can maybe put those in the show notes or something. But when people sign up there, they get a free eight part series on how to create, create demand for their business and it's life changing.

All right, everyone. Mo Bunnell, I'll tell you, don't get one copy of this book. Get multiple for your entire team. We found with Profit first and Clockwork and these other books is when the entrepreneur buys it for the entire team. They have a book study as a group. The entire organization absorbs that concept and applies it and does it. So get 10 copies of the Snowball system, for God's sake. You can use this stuff. Mo, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks, Mo.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Thank you. And, hey, you just prompted a thought, Mike. We've got a whole online series of tools and worksheets that people get when they buy the book. And there's even a thought guide, you know, for rolling it out on a team. So I thought your idea was perfect, because just like clockwork and all your great books, there's a whole system here, and the worksheets help people implement it.

Awesome. Hey, Ruby Tan. What do you think about that?

Fat daddy, fat back.

That's what I thought, Ruby. Fitting. Yeah. I was like, what the hell was that? All right, we got a lot of things to do, Kal. We gotta recap what we learned. Do we have a listener mail again today?

We do.

Oh, good, good. Can I play my this got mail pattern ball? I know I didn't ruin it, but I want to play that. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a teaser. It's a teaser. People, listen. People right now are laughing so hard like they're gonna play that again.

I can practically hear them.

I know, I know. I think it's sort of cricket. Okay. And then. And then we're gonna give some tease. Like, you know, we're gonna reiterate our bribes and stuff. But, yeah, first, I want to thank our corporate partners. I love when you do the head move, you know, because that shows now on our YouTube page that you. You. It's not me pushing the button. It's you. Watch this. Isn't that crazy? It's our head move, Jeremy. If you're a YouTube watcher, you get it. Yeah. It creates that sound. All right, let's. Who's our corporate partners?

Nextiva.

Yep. And Receipt Bank. And here's the thing. I think we need to seek out. We haven't been seeking. These come to us. And so these. They're amazing. And they keep coming to us. Us. I think we need to get some other corporate partners. So if someone's listening to the show and you want us to promote your business on the show, I mean, think about it. No more as well. Look at the impact Receipt Banks having.

We put a beautiful spin on it.

Beautiful spin. Intergalactic connections over your next TV phone. I mean, who promotes and that true.

Voice technology that they have?

Oh, yeah. Jeremy, do you believe how many Times you've been on a call and you're talking to someone, you're like, is that their real voice? You're thinking that in your head, right? Nextiva has invented what they call true voice. And true voice is when you talk to the person, that's their actual real voice. So when you meet them face to face, there's not that disconnect saying you sound different on the phone. It's always their true voice. I invented that.

I do that every time I hear my voice. I'm like, is that me?

Really, dude? Next time you call yourself on a nextiva phone, true voice will blow you awake. Oh, my gosh. That's what I truly sound like. Only nextiva offers that. No other phone, no other phone system ever.

It's amazing how different it sounds on every other phone.

What do you like better, your true voice or your non true voice?

I love my voice most over nextivo. So that means true voice. I. When I. When I listen to, I'm like, is that Barry White?

Yeah, I think every time.

Do you ever listen to your voice over next, like the recordings?

Nope.

You'll be. You'll be blown. How many times do you call yourself on a regular basis? Well, that's the challenge. And next. He hasn't overcome that. You actually have to call yourself from one nextiva to the other. So you have two phones to one to one ear, one to the other. Like, hey, Kelsey, it's me. I can hear you. Oh, my God, your voice is so good. It's my true voice. Like, it's a lot of back and forth, but the technology's there. Discover it for yourself. Go to nextiva.com. the other major problem out there is asphalt. I mean, let's be totally honest, Jeremy. You have a lot of receipts. I mean, look at you, right? Open your wallet. Look at this. Look at that. Wow, you pulled out this. I don't know if our. Our listeners can really see what you just showed. It is a wallet. That is. First of all, this money does not need to be in here. Let's look at the rest. All right, so there's your thing. So no, the money hits the money here. I just took it out because it was a little too thick. The problem is, think about that money here. He's just looking at his money. I got this money. If there was receipts with. Along with this, your. Your. Your butt would never. You wouldn't be able to sit anywhere and receipt. Banks saw this problem in the world and said, listen, people can't sit comfortably, and it's because of receipts that are piling up in their wallets. And women have the same problem. You notice how many people are limp walkers. They walk with one side to kind of a limp. Their left shoulders up and right shoulders down. It's because women are carrying purses with so many receipts in them, it's throwing off their body. You get scoliosis that way.

Yeah, it's definitely the receipts.

You can get scoliosis. Yeah, that's deadly. Dude. Bank, that's like, up there with vd.

So I know he kept saying bd.

And I. I heard bd. I know, I know. I was like, oh, my God. The sales system presents all sexually transmitted diseases. So receipt bank, you will never again have scoliosis or an aswell potentially. Maybe not. They don't guarantee it, but I think that's the biggest benefit. Go to ReceiptBank.com and check it out. All right, Kelsey, what you. What you learn today?

A few things that I really liked. First, I love the managing yourself aspect.

Come on, man.

Yeah, I did like that.

Super important. I feel like we on a daily basis hold ourselves accountable to one major.

Thing at our office here.

But I think it's really important for projects to do it on a weekly basis and, like, set goals. Specific. Like he says, three goals to move those things forward. Yeah, I really love that. I also love the behavioral economics and that the number one way that people evaluate value is the cost. And that's so true. I do it all the time.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh, I should go for the higher end thing only because it costs more money, not because it's necessarily better.

Yeah, I liked the. People get a. The neural network in our head starts firing pleasure components when we talk about ourselves. So really to get the customer to listen and learn from the customer also is giving them a sense of pleasure. Right. Because they're talking about themselves. I loved the have them help build the system or the solution. Yeah, it was, you know, so I just bought a jacuzzi, but what they call hot tub, Hot tub. I go there and Jason, the sales guy was kind of cheesy, but I'll tell you who's a great salesperson because he actually followed the system. We went first of all for a soak test. So you go to the room and they put you in. You start testing things out. And he's sitting there and he's like, there's always dials like these. These hot tubs and these modern ones, like, ridiculous. It's like Captain Kurt wouldn't be able to land this hot tub. And he's turned all his dials, and he's like, mike, what's more important to you? Is it the massage and the therapeutic, or do you just need to relax? And I say, question. I think it's the therapeutics. I sense that. Are you athletic? I'm like, I am, Jason. I am athletic.

How could you tell? Is it my physique?

Is it the fact that I took a photo with my shirt and my pants to get these latch off? Is that what. That proved it? And he's like, I could tell. So he's letting me, like, just, you know, brag about myself, right? And he goes, what if we mill. What if we built. He actually used this word. What if we build a hot tub that addresses all of those requirements you have. What would it. We need back massage. I think, is that good to have him? Like, yeah. And I said, my feet, you know? Cause I run a lot. Oh, yes. We need foot massage. He's like, mike, you built the Nextiva Special 1000 hot tub. And he walks me down the aisle, and there it is sitting there, glowing lights, LEDs flashing, dancers behind it, you know? Know? And I'm like, I built this. He's like, you. This is what you specified. He's like, we need. We need to get this. But then I told you about this. I buy the hot tub. Thank God he said this after I bought the hot tub. I buy the hot tub, and they delivered it yesterday. Oh, wow. Yeah.

True body technology.

True body. Yeah, right? It does have true body technology. And he goes, you won't believe this. The water miraculously morphs around any body type. I'm like, are you serious? He's like, like anything. I don't care what condition you're in, our water system morphs around you. So everybody.

It's this magic physics that we invented.

I'm like, wow. It's true body technology. He goes, I love my hot tub. I said, oh. I said, you know, I love when someone that sells this stuff owns it. Like, which one do you own? He's like, oh, I don't own it. He goes, you're sitting in my hot tub. This is the one I use. I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, when the store closes, I come here with my girlfriend, and, you know, we use the hot tubs, and the owner, like, supports that. I'm like, are you. I'm sitting in your cesspool sex machine hot tub. Like, I got out of there so quickly. I ran out of there, out into the street. No Trousers on, just running down the street out of there. But I already bought the thing, so I stuck with it. Okay, Kelsey, what. What do we have for listener mail? Let me push the button. Hold on. You've got mail pattern baldness. That's so funny.

So this comes from Joseph for CrossFit Crescent.

Oh, yeah.

Amman, Jordan.

Oh, awesome.

So he says, have you ever worked with someone who has a conviction to give 10% of their revenue for God's work? I think I'll open another account for this. It will be for 10%. It will be the first I give towards, then profit, then the rest.

So first of all, a lot of people don't know, and I don't think it's really relevant. But I am a religious guy, and you listen to the show like, he's like the devil's child. How can he religious? And I understand, support the concept of tithing. Now, tithing, I think it's independent of religion. Or is that a Christian thing? Or is that true for Muslim or Jewish?

Different religions have a different aspect of tithing.

Okay, so the concept of tithing is that a portion, typically 10% at least. The definition I understand of tithing is you give back to your religious relation affiliation, your church or temple or worship center. And one thing I want people understand is it's tithing on the money you make. The misconception people have is they say, oh, my company made, say, $100,000 this year. I made, you know, $30,000. And they say, since the company made 100,000, I need to give 10% of that 10,000 to Tithe. That's not what your. Your business made. Tithing is typically on what your income is. So what we do is we look at your income, say, oh, you made 30,000. Let's take 10% of that. How we do with the profit first system is we take 10% of the owner's compensation. So $100,000 comes in the business. Say you're at a 30% going into owner's pay, that's 30,000. We then set up another account called tithing and take 10% of that. So $3,000 goes into tithing, and the owner's compensation gets reduced boost. That's how you do it. The business doesn't tithe. The individual tithes. Now this gives the freedom to. If other people in your organization want to tithe, they can tithe from their income too.

What if he wanted. Like, what if it was his sort of.

He's not allowed to. God will not permit that. God would get very Upset. No, of course. I mean, listen, listen. There's people that give 50% of their income and they set up their business specifically to contribute. There's organizations that are very religiously oriented, like Chick Fil A. Right. I don't know how they operate, but you may choose to set up your business specifically to support your definition of God's work. Awesome. You can do it. But if you wanted to follow the traditional rules. I'm doing air quote, rules of tithing, then it's of your personal income, and that's how you do it. Don't challenge me. You're gonna be struck by a bolt of lightning.

I was asking the question for any listeners that might be thinking it.

Just saying God, do you have anything to say to Kelsey?

Shut up.

Oh, thank you. That's not me. Oh, I just lost every person.

Blasphemous.

I think God's a jokester. I really do. I think. I think when the day you die and I don't see God is like this hairy, like, bearded hair. I'm not saying like a hair on his back. I never even thought about that until now. I'm thinking, like, I don't think God had like this big, massive beard. I think it's this. This. It's an energy is how I see God. So I don't think there's a man or. But I also think God's a jokester. Funniest. Funniest being on the planet or actually in the universe. Actually in the entirety of the. The ethos I think is God. I can't wait to hear some of God's jokes.

What other podcast can you find that has business advice, VD sex and hot.

Tubs, and then transition to God? We do this to make everyone feel good. They say, you know the number one rule in business?

All of our conversations are like, they.

Say, don't play Kate. They say, don't placate to everyone. Like, if you're serving everyone, you're serving no one. And we say Bowie. That's bull. Serve everybody. The religious zealots. We support them. The. The atheists. We love you. The. The. The Sex in the hot tub lovers. Bazinga. We love you. We. We accept you all.

Oh, boy.

All right, chiefy. I think. Did we get everything?

Yeah.

All right, but don't forget to leave us a rating review and send it to me. Just take a screenshot, send it to Kelsey.

Does it have to be a five star review or. We'll take anything.

No, Anything.

Yeah. Listen, we want integrity. So if you think we suck. Like, Mike, that. That diatribe about God and sex tubs, like, that's bull. Yeah, that's a one star. I get it. I would one star myself.

Either way, we appreciate critical feedback.

We appreciate critical. Yeah, we want to make the show.

Maybe don't make it public. Maybe just tell me.

Don't. Please don't embarrass me. For all that's holy, please don't embarrass me. Just tell. Kelsey, will you get rid of Mike? Kelsey, take over and show yourself.

No way, Jose.

The Jeremy and Kelsey show. All right, guys. And then send us an email to Kelseykemcalowitz.com with the review, the honest review you do of our podcast. And then give us your mailing address and we will mail you a book. I think we're limiting to people in the US Though, right? Yeah, I think we try to sneak one down to Mexico. We were talking about that last time in Mexico. We rejected it. Yeah, because their postal system stinks. That we'll talk about on another episode.

Also, get surge. You can get surge for free. Just go to Mike McCallowicz dot com.

All right, guys, take care. We'll see you later.

Bye.