Episode 6: How to be Profitable in Web Design with Liz Dobrinska

From the studios of Fractal Recording, this is the Profit first podcast. Episode number six. Yeah. Yes. Well, if you could only see Mike Michalowicz right now. Oh, my goodness.

Like the air drum, How I'm doing it, it's like a. What's the animal that birds. Ostrich. Like an ostrich beak?

Yeah.

I've never seen a drummer just do this.

That's awkward, dude.

Yeah, that's awkward. I look like the kid. You know, you go to like a, a, a grade school orchestra, like fifth graders. And there's that one kid in the back, he's wearing flood pants and they like, he can't play instrument. Put him on the timpany in the back, you know, and he just sits.

There like, he just whail it on.

Yeah. Whaling on it. But they have him behind the curtain so you can't even hear him. That's who I was.

That's awesome. Well, welcome everyone, to the Profit first podcast. We're happy to have you. I'm Chris Curran, the founder of Fractal Recording.

And I'm Mike Michalowitz, author of Profit First. And you know what we're doing on this episode, like we do in every episode, we. We talk about profitability, the alpha and omega of every business. I don't care what business you're in, you're in business to be profitable. And that's what we're going to talk about.

That's it. We love it. And we're also available as a podcast in itunes and Stitcher. And of course, if you go to profitfirstpodcast.com you find the whole collection of them.

Yeah.

All of our previous guests. So you could see all the wackiness that's happened in the past.

We had one of our guests stuck in a parking garage calling us in.

Yes.

Calling into us.

Yes. And. Yeah. And we also had some good feedback. We're gonna get into that, aren't we?

Yeah. Well, this is the nice thing about having a podcast is you get live feedback from the audience and they tell you what they like and they don't like. I printed out our first piece of mail.

Wait, should we talk about our sponsors first?

Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. Right, right. That's a good point.

The train's about to go off the track, so let's. Let's do the work first.

So you know who our sponsors are?

I know. Nextiva.

Nextiva is our primary sponsor. They're a voice over IP phone system. Every business needs a phone system. You don't need a Fax anymore, I don't think. But you need a phone system. But they're so expensive. You need to find effective cost alternative. I found nextiva for myself, started using them. They ultimately came on as a sponsor. That's how I work my deals, by the way.

Right?

Yeah. I work it, I buy the product. If I fall in love with it, say, hey, could you give me some money instead of me paying you? And nextiva stepped up.

Yeah.

Love them. I've actually been to their corporate offices in Arizona. They're a US based place. If you've customer service needs, you're not thrown over to the Philippines or someone in India. You're working with folks in Phoenix or Scottsdale, Arizona walking you through this thing. The system is amazingly effective and capable.

Right. And it's voiceover ip, but it's a real phone system. Everyone has a phone.

Yeah, yeah. And listen, nextiva is not the only one. It's the only one that provides customer service this level. I've worked with quite a few in kind of in search of the company.

Yes.

Found Nextiva and they were the one.

There you go. So Nextiva. Thank you.

Also sponsoring us is TSheets, which stands for. Yeah, you're thinking something dirty.

I know.

I don't even know what dirty.

We've been called juvenile. But no, we haven't.

We haven't. TSheets is a time tracking system, time entry. And if you have employees that need to track their time for projects, maybe you're billing out some projects or maybe there's hourly employees that you need track time. T sheets is a mobile app, you can use it or online. Powerful system. Other sponsor is Fundera. Love that.

Fundera.

Fundera, they're a funding source. So if you need a loan for your business, if you need to even do an equity deal, go to Fundera. It's a one point entry and they shop out the deal for you. And I think they have. I met with them personally and I think they said they have somewhere of like a 70 to maybe it was even 90% success rate where individuals. When I go to my own bank, it's like a 10% success rate. I gotta go to bank after bank to get the deal I want. They do it all simultaneously. They present the best deal to you. That's cool.

Fundera.

Yeah. And there's no fee. I guess they make their money by baking it into the loan. So the loaner, the lender or the loaner, some guy out in some that no one talks to.

He's a loner, he's in a tent all by itself.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Some loaner out there gives fundera money. Some guy in some tent is giving them money. That's how they make their money.

There you go. So, yes.

Oh, my God. So we have an awesome guest today, but I have to give you the feedback first. So our guest who's listening to us right now, her name's Liz Debranska. She can't talk yet because we have her muted.

We have her muted.

Liz, if you can hear us and you decide to drop the call for this, I get it. So, Chris, first piece of feedback comes in. Mail is pouring in. I'm like, this is awesome, all this feedback. Here's the first piece I get. This is about our show, episode one broadcast. Sorry to say, but I did not enjoy or benefit from this podcast one iota. Had to look that word up, by the way. Why? Question mark. Too much false bonhomie. Had to look that word up. And jejune humor. Plus too many guest interruptions by Michalowitz and current the hosts. Not to mention irrelevant podcast information about real estate. Obvious pablum. Had to look that one up. Complete waste of time. And then after I heard the words, there's a lot of Chris's in this country. I give up. This is submitted. You can check it out on@private first podcast.com they this came in from Harold or Harry Glasscock.

Okay.

Which. So check out his comment. Which if you listen, man, Mallowitz is my last name. In high school. People call me M. Shitz. My cow has tits. I heard all the juvenile humor.

Yes.

If your last name is Glasscock. Harry Glasscock. Dude, you're getting slammed. I think now, listen, I get it. He thinks we suck. I totally get it. But I think he's letting out a little bit of extra energy here.

Yeah, well, he's clearly, I mean, been abused in his life, so he's passing on the abuse to us.

Yeah. And he's probably listening now, going, oh my God, it's game on.

No, but if you're listening now, Harry, thank you. Seriously.

Yeah. No, no. Yeah. I love critical feedback and we've actually made some adjustments because we got other feedback about going off track. So much.

Yes.

Which I love to joke around, but so we're doing less of that. One other piece of feedback came in and it just said, I've heard better. Love mom. I'm not kidding. My mom. So, like, I get it.

Wow.

I get it. But I'll tell you, if you're trying, I stop banging these Papers.

Oh, yeah.

If you. If you try to care for everyone, if you try to serve everyone, you serve no one, right?

Yes. Our show. Yes.

So, okay, so I think, Liz, you're basically done. If you're still listening in, because we don't have any time left, we're gonna.

Put up the call.

Yeah. All right. We better pick her up. Let me tell you who she is first. Liz Debrinska owns a company called Innovative Images. She is actually my web developer. I called Liz and said, listen, Liz, I'm doing a podcast with my friend Chris Kern. We're talking about profitability. You are literally the best web developer I've ever worked with. I wanna know how the web business works. And she said, no, I'm not gonna tell you anything. But she's like, I'd love to be on the show anyway. I said, can you tell me your numbers? She goes, no, but. But she said she will share some insights.

Wow. So, Liz, welcome to the show.

Hey, guys.

How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

Good.

We're rocking over here. We're on fire today.

Yeah.

I just wanna say, I think the one lesson I learned is not to share the link with my mom. It sounds like.

Yeah. Have you listened to any of our shows, Honestly, yet?

I have. Yes, I have. And I did. See. Was it Harold's comment?

Yeah.

Yep.

And how come you didn't?

I thought your response was very apricot. Fourth comic.

Yeah, I was on Listen, when I wrote back to him, Chris, I was like, dude, I totally get it, Harold. You don't like me. But, like, I am who I am, and if you're. If you want me to be someone else, it ain't gonna work together. And then I also said, whatever you do, please do not read my books, because you'll want to kill me. So where are you today?

I am actually right outside of Philadelphia in New Hope.

Right.

I'm actually not far from New Hope. I did listen to that podcast as well, which is Michael Ports down there.

That's right. That's right. So tell us, just so our listeners can get a sense for what you do. What do you do?

Sure. So about 15 years ago, I started my own company, and traditional graphic design to start and then parlayed into website development. And I still do both today, but my heart is really with the website development, so that's what I focus on.

How did you get into that in the first place? Like, design and stuff? Were you always, like, an artist? Like, were you the kid that actually enjoyed art class?

Yeah, Yeah, I actually. I was just laughing about it the other day. I was thinking about sort of when I got started. You know, I was. I was that kid that was designing all the local soccer shirts, and I actually did a lot of pen and ink drawings for realtors to give away as gifts. And I even used to hot glue gun Christmas angels for the top of Christmas trees back when I was probably about 12. And sold them in the local beauty salon. So I started pretty young.

Yeah, supposedly local beauty salons are a big source of sales for hot glued angels.

You know, at 12, I was raking it in. It was pretty good.

No, we forgot the word, the art to put our.

Damn it, Liz, just hang with us real quick. We gotta mute you for two seconds. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So there's a. She's like, okay, whatever. She knows how pathetic we are. Oh, she's still there.

Damn it. Sorry.

Now she's muted. What. What's the word for me that I have to sneak in while we are. Conversation.

Yes. So the word for this episode is Ruby throated hummingbird.

Okay.

And you have to. It's going to be your responsibility to work that into the conversation.

Naturally.

Naturally. And the guest, of course the guest doesn't know.

Okay, so perfect. Bring it back, bring it back. So, Liz, I want you to know, out of our six episodes, we've done five of them. We forgot to do the mute part. And I don't know. So. Sorry about that. That was awkward.

So. But the hot glue gun thing, I think, you know, sometimes we. We, our guests do really good things and we feel like sending them a prize. I think that should be the prize we send them.

I think so.

And it's the perfect time of year.

It is, it is. It's the holiday season. Isn't it handy? All right, so give me some deets on how you actually make money, Liz, doing what you do. I mean, not the hot glue thing. I mean, like nowadays.

Yeah, the actual. The better stuff. I was thinking about it, and I think the big thing for website development is you really need a system. I think a lot of people get into that people pleasing mode and they don't actually follow their system. They just want to make the client happy and kind of say yes to everything. And when it comes down to it, what I'm selling is really my time. Obviously my expertise is built into that. And over time, I get quicker at things and it makes the process easier. But to really have a system in place and then to keep the client following that system and that's really where you get to be profitable.

Okay. So you make money when you can get the client to actually follow your instructions even though you're serving them. I know there's a lot of back and forth. You need copy and so forth to design a website, right?

Yeah. There's a lot of pieces to it. It's taken me several years, but I think I finally have a really good formula that takes everything through in phases and it keeps the client on top of what's going on. To be honest, most of my clients, they haven't built a website or if they have done one, it's usually not where the process has been a true funnel. A lot of people will just kind of slap up a template and they'll throw their content in and maybe they'll add their colors. And that's really not what I do. I want to build someone a tool that really works for them. And so I do it from the ground up. And so one of my responsibilities is really to help that client who this is something new to them and maybe something they've never done before, and really walk them through it and give them a tool that they can use.

So what I'm hearing is you're in a very iterative business. Iterative or whatever the word is a business where a client requests you to design a website. You say, fine. You ask them, what do you want? And they say, I want this. There's a lot of back and forth is what I'm getting to. Right, Liz?

There's a lot of back and forth. And it's also, you have to ask the right questions because I think a lot of people, they're not even sure what they really need. It's a lot different than designing just a simple brochure or a flyer, an ad. There's a lot of moving pieces to it.

So what are the questions you ask? You said you have a lot of right questions. What are the questions?

Yeah, really, it's sort of what the goal of the site is. If you're doing just a portfolio based site where you want people to just have information about you, are you trying to get them to sign up for something? Are you trying to sell something? So it really depends what avenue they're trying to take.

So are you asking, are you reverse engineering when you design a website? You say, well, what's the end game of this website? First tell me that. Okay, then what do you ask them?

Yeah, so then, you know, I want to know about who their audience is. I want to know who we're you know, who we're trying to reach out to and then you know really just what their overall business goals are. And then I start to figure out how that website can actually fit into their everyday operations and ultimately what their goal is.

Do you start off with a budget too, or do they call you and say, hey, we're going to drop some money, we want a website, or how's the money side work? How do you know what you're working with dollar wise?

Yeah, that's definitely always a challenge. I've done enough sites where I kind of know where at what point I'm going to hit a profit and that's always my goal. But I also want to be fair to the client and give them something that they need and they want. So what I do is I ask a lot of questions, get the information that I need, what type of site they want, and then I can start to figure out what price point we're at. And then we go back and forth because there's a lot of technology and functions and things that would change the.

Price point and you're much higher than price wise than if someone went on something like some template website or whatever. How do you explain that difference? Because one common thing Chris and I are getting from our listeners is, well, I can't have higher prices because there's an alternative that's cheaper and then people won't buy from me. How do you get past that resistance?

Yeah, I feel like in the last maybe two or three years, people have been sort of not appreciating a custom website as much as in my mind. I wish that they would really. I think it's a little bit of, you know, people not understanding what it is that they're actually buying. And that's part of my sales pitches to explain to them the difference between the two. What I do is all custom. So I'm not taking a pre existing template and just sticking in your logo, sticking in content where the template allows for it. What I'm doing is saying, okay, this is your target audience, this is the information you need to get across. How do we best design this? How do we best display it? And then how does the functionality best support it? Everything is customized to support what it is that you actually need. It's not just about throwing up a website and having your logo there and a bit of text and then a picture that kind of slides back and forth.

So for you to hit your numbers, I mean, to be really profitable, it sounds like you need to be super efficient. You need the client Running as little interference as possible, meaning they need to get out what they want and tell you right from the get go. It sounds like you invest a lot in the preparatory side. It sounds kind of risky though, because they may not sign up with you. Is that true?

I tell people the part that takes the most time is the planning stage. I always say the design part is the fun stage because that's when you get to see the pretty parts of it. When it comes down to actually building out the site, the code, I almost say I go in the dark, I swear I'm still here. But there's a period of time where I'm just literally sitting in front of a computer just writing the code. And at that point, the site shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The client understands what content's going there. They've seen what it looks like. And once you unveil it, you make sure all the links work and the pages are all there and you haven't forgotten anything. But at that point, if I've done my job correctly, or a web developer or designer, you shouldn't have a hiccup or disappointment. And that's where I think some people get into trouble, where they lose out on profit. I think the expectation sometimes doesn't get met or the end goal doesn't end up where the client thinks that it's supposed to be. And that's where I think you start potentially losing profit.

So to follow up on your question, Mike, Liz, I wanted to ask you with that. You're doing a lot of consulting up front, and as far as how it affects your profit, do you figure in beforehand, like, okay, I might have to spend, you know, four hours total with this person to get them straight, get them all signed up. Like, do you quantify that or is. Do you just kind of understand that, hey, all this consulting I'm not getting, might not get paid for it?

Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of both. I've sort of learned the hard way before. You know, I'd sit down, they tell me their whole story. They tell me what they want. You know, a few hours later, they're.

Like, they're laying a cigarette with you. Oh, so I was born in 1973.

Kids they have.

Do you get the sob stories? Like, not the sob stories, but the sob stories. Do you get those?

Exactly. Yeah. You hear all their hardships.

Yeah.

And then you finally get around to talking about money. And I mean, literally, I have some people who think, you know, $500 for a website is a lot and you know, that's. I can't. It's not someone that, you know that I can help doing a custom solution. So I have learned to try to have that conversation a little bit more early on just to make sure we're somewhat on the same page.

Oh, smart.

You know, and if we're not, then I either to give them a referral to someone that I think might be more helpful to them, or I have even suggested maybe they start with a template just to get things rolling for them and as their company grows, they can go back and maybe do a custom website.

Now when it comes to custom websites, you do more. What does that mean? More artful things. Like you'll have a picture of a ruby throated hummingbird. What does that mean?

Basically, all of my designs I'm building from the ground up. So I'm literally deciding where every little element on that website is going to be and there's a reason behind it.

Gotcha.

I went to art school, so I have a very good understanding of color and layout. And I take, I mean, what you guys probably could look like took five minutes. I mean, I literally am analyzing every little piece of the site, every word, every color. So it's just really from the ground up. And what works best for each business.

If you were starting all over again. If you're rewinding, this is my favorite question now. It's a great one. It's a great question. So just imagine, just close your eyes, sit back, light a cigarette. If you were re envisioning your life starting this business 18 years ago now, what would have you told yourself to do to become more profitable to make more money for your business?

Quickly.

Quickly. Are you asking me to ask that question quickly? I just killed like three minutes of that question. All right, so, Liz, do you understand what I'm saying?

I think so. I mean, for me, I think, you know, networking is huge and being exposed to people who are interested in the type of work that you're doing and also appreciate the type of work that you're doing. And I also think, you know, just getting back to the whole profitability issue, one of the things that I still regret to this day is not getting myself the right accountant. I stuck with somebody for way longer than I should have.

What's their name? What's her name? What's her name?

No way am I telling Harold.

Poor Harold. No way. Really? You will never say their name.

No, no.

But I have another question for you. Who was your first accountant?

Nice.

Okay, keep going. I'm sorry. So you get a better accountant. What was the problems you experienced with the accountant? That didn't work out.

Yeah. So one year, you know, I. You know, I kind of know what I'm doing, but not entirely in terms of accounting. I mean, I knew I had needed to have QuickBooks. I know how to enter my invoices, and I know what I collected. But, you know, when tax time would come, I didn't really get it. I would just give my reports and my QuickBooks file to my accountant, and I would say, what do I owe? And he would base my quarterly estimates on the year before. So I was paying throughout the year. I thought I was on top of everything. And the one year he calls me up and I get that cheapish voice of, I have really bad news for you. And he says, you know, you owe 11,000 more dollars than you've already paid. And I didn't have it. I wasn't expecting it. You know, I just. I was like, I don't have this money. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And it's, you know, due in a couple days.

That's nice.

Yeah. It was not a good feeling. So I totally scrambled. I ended up. I think I went out and just really solicited myself hard and found a decent job where I could use that deposit money to go towards it. And I think I ended up taking out some of my personal saving and paid the bill. But it. It just always bothered me because I just didn't understand how there was such a disconnect. You know, I was paying my quarterlies. You know, every year I make a little more, but it wasn't significantly more. So I just understand it. And to be honest, I just. I felt kind of dumb. Like, I just, you know, I went to art school. I didn't. There was no math classes. There were no accounting classes. There was no business classes.

What's cool? What's cool? What's cool?

College of Art and Design, so.

Oh, that one. You'll say you'll share the school that screwed you, but the accountant, you're protecting him? Her?

Yes. Yes.

Interesting.

Yeah. But, I mean, it wasn't a business school.

Right?

They didn't really. You know, there wasn't a lot of. I was definitely winging it, you know, for sure.

Right.

And so it always bothered me that I didn't understand why I owed this money. I didn't. You know, I was like, I feel like there's something I just don't get. So, you know, literally anyone that would come in the door. I'd be like, could you look at my tax return and tell me where you think this error might be? And people that know me, I own a horse, which is, you know, a money pit. And so everyone said, oh, you probably spent it on your horse and just didn't realize. And I was like, no, I don't think so. I mean, I'm keeping track of everything. Something's just not right. And eventually I got a new accountant and I asked her, I said, would you take a look at my, you know, tax return from a number of years ago? This thing's always bothered me. And she found the mistake almost immediately.

What was the mistake?

So I actually, we ran a report based on an accrual system, and I'm on a cash based system. So that's where the disconnect.

Okay, so accrual, Chris, in case you don't know, means I don't. Okay, so accrual means that the money is accounted for. When the transaction happens, I send you an invoice. My system sees I collected the money. A cash basis is actually where the money's received, where the check comes into hand. Liz, let me ask you this. Did you not owe those $11,000?

I didn't.

Holy shit. Holy. That makes me want to choke a ruby throated hummingbird.

Yeah, I was, you know, there was a moment where I was like, oh, my gosh, like, finally, I know what it is.

Wow.

I might actually get this money back. And then I was annoyed that it ever happened to me in the first place.

Did you get the money back?

I did. She actually was able to issue me a credit. So that following year I had a very nice. A nice year because, you know, I could apply that money towards that year.

Gotcha.

Didn't owe as much.

Who's this accountant? Your new accountant. We want to know her name.

Yes, her name is actually Sunny Taylor and she's located in Connecticut.

Great. Chris, call Sunny Taylor, ask her what accountant she fixed so we can get the name of the original. Cool. All right, Sunny Taylor, shout out to you. Good job.

You're like an investigator, Mike.

I am, right? Yeah, I used to actually, I used to do forensics. I used to have a forensic business.

No.

Yeah, but not investigating people. Investigating computer evidence. Oh, yeah.

So he just can't help himself.

I can't help myself. I investigate everything. Oh, here's a funny story. Liz and I. So there was a web project that came up through a client of mine. So I go for the ride along with Liz out into Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania. Liz, we were out toward Pittsburgh, right?

Yeah, it was pretty far out.

Pretty far out there. We. We go to this place. It's a manufacturer of playsets. But when I say a manufacturer, I mean, like, 500 employees. I mean a massive facility. Liz is dressed up, you know, business suit, high heels, la la. I come in, you know, cigar jeans, and I go to the owner. Like, we like to take a tour of this facility so we can, you know, really get a sense for this facility. We walk around. Liz has, like, this weird, gimpy walk, and I'm like. I go, liz, what's up with the horse? Like, did you get hurt by your horse? Because she does a lot of equestrian stuff. I'm like, did the horse bite you or something? She's like, not really. Not really. We keep walking. 40 minutes later of her gimping around, a worker comes running down with a heel in his hand. A heel. From someone's shoe. From someone's high heel. Liz's foot, her shoe, it broke off the heel, like, within one second of getting this place. And she didn't tell anyone she gimped around for 40 minutes.

That's a professional.

Yeah. Do you remember that, Liz?

Yeah. It was mortifying.

It was awesome. 10,000 listeners will be downloading this. Know your story. Liz Debrinska, innovative images.

Yeah.

One heel.

Mail her some high heels.

Yeah, I just didn't want to take away from the, you know, potential sale and distract anyone. So.

Yeah, profit first, man.

Total pro.

All money. She was all money, right? Yeah. She. When the guy tried to give it to her, he's like, here's your heel. She hits out, his hand gets. Get that away from me. All I care about is the profit. I'm here for the money. She said. And they said, you don't have the deal. She's like, well, I want my heel back now. And we didn't get the project.

Oh.

Oh, my God. It sucked.

Son of a. Yeah, I don't blame myself for that one, though.

Yeah. So she blames you.

Oh, that hurt. Yeah, it's true. She put everything in.

So does Harold, though, so it's okay.

Oh, my God. A lot of people are blaming me. So, Liz, with the web industry, with web design, are you more profitable year by year? Do you see things dipping? How is it looking for you nowadays?

Yeah, I have to say, a couple years ago, I was worried, but I really. I've managed to always be a little bit more ahead. I mean, I haven't seen a dramatic increase, but it's. I'm Always. I think this year I'm up maybe 12% bottom line.

12% bottom line or 12% overall bottom line?

Well, I'm not sure I know the difference, to be honest.

Well, okay, so when I say bottom line, I mean profit your income into your pocket, after taxes, after your expenses. Is that up 12% or. Okay, that's what matters. That is bottom line.

That's it.

Yeah. Top line would be your overall revenue, meaning maybe you did. I'm just taking a random number. Say you did $100,000 last year. If you did $112,000 this year, that's top line. But if you took home, say, $50,000, now you're doing $57,000, that's 12% increase in bottom line. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I think it's funny because I overall look at the different clients and the different projects, I don't know that any one thing really stands out on why there is always an increase. But one thing that I think I'm pretty good at is diversifying myself enough. I don't rely heavily on any one client. So if one has a bad year or they're just unable to do as much marketing or they don't want to invest in their website, someone else always seems to kind of fall into their place. So there's always that little bit of juggling act. I know with larger ad agencies, they kind of get that one big client and throw all their effort and energy into that. And I've been very careful not to. To do that.

Yeah. And you know, one thing you also do, because I've been working with Liz for maybe eight years, maybe it's even longer than that, is you will develop something or work with one client that requires something, but then you'll plug it into your other clients. Like you've done some stuff with WordPress, different design stuff. You're doing stuff with some CRMs we were talking about. And once you figure out for one, you take that knowledge and the efficiencies and introduce to other clients and she makes money, which is impressive until you do it to me and I buy stuff I don't need, I get a big fat bill. So Liz is amazing. Liz, last question for you. Where's the heel? No, no, last question for you is profit. How important is profit? How much effort and focus do you put into profit?

I mean, for me, I think profit is really peace of mind. So to me, it's very important. I don't like that feeling of anxiety. I don't want to live paycheck to Paycheck. So, you know, I put a lot of importance into it. And, you know, Mike, not to toot your own horn, but I think for, you know, from your book, the one thing I really got from it was to be able to put my profits in a separate place. And then at the end of the year, you know, this year is the first year I've implemented that, and, you know, I can look at it and say, hey, it's there. Whereas a lot of times at the end of the year, you know, I'll see it in the books, but I don't actually see the cash. So I think that's been a really big difference for me this year, and it feels pretty good to have made profit a priority.

Toot, toot. That's my own horn.

There you go.

Liz, where can people find out more about you and hire you for web services? One caveat. If you do hire Liz, I still take priority. I get service first. Okay. Where can they find out more about you, Liz?

Sure. My website is innov-images.com innovimages.com.

Okay, we'll have that in the show. Post.

Anything else you want to share?

Liz, what's your favorite ice cream?

Seriously?

Seriously.

Mint chocolate chip.

Oh, my God. Score, score.

Intuition.

Yeah. So clearly you're not from Arkansas. Have you ever been to Arkansas? Okay, see, I knew that, too. We found on our last episode that in Arkansas, butter, pecan or pecan is the most popular. Chris said he's surprised it's not mint chocolate chip, because in the northeast territory, that's what's in high demand. And you're in the Northeast. I thought it was pistachio, and he said, no, that's just weirdos.

Does anyone eat pistachio?

Yeah, Me.

Me.

God, you're killing me.

Yeah.

Liz, it was a pleasure having you.

Thanks, Liz.

Thank you. I appreciate it. It was nice chatting with you.

This has been great.

See you later. Stay warm in Pennsylvania.

I'll try.

All right, later.

Thanks, Liz.

All right, bye.

All right, now she can. Well, she can hang on and listen to our recap. Although it's more than a recap.

It's more than a recap. It's what I learned, you know, I learned from Liz.

What did you learn from Liz?

If you lose your freaking heel. Keep walking. Keep walking, Right? Because, like, for me, it was. It was a funny moment, but it's the real deal. You're here to do business, problems happen. Just keep walking.

Wow. It would have been cool if she knocked off the other heel so she could.

Yeah. Yeah, double heel it. That's called a double helix.

Walk flat.

So here's a couple things I did also learn. She invests. She puts a risk up front, meaning she takes a risk by investing time in these clients up front to really understand what they want. Knowing she may lose the client, but knowing if she didn't do that, if she engaged the client, there can be lots of misunderstandings and go down this tangential path. So she kind of banks the risk up front to be more profitable on the back end. I thought that was cool.

That is cool. But how, in terms of profit and learning and stuff, is that like just intuition she uses to figure out if, like. Like what if she puts in all this time with all these people and then she's not getting the clients, at some point she's going to say, I can't do this anymore.

Well, she even said. She actually answered that. She said she has the hard money talk first. She said, oh, a lot of people talk about their hardships, you know, oh, I don't have any money. Business is struggling, blah, blah, story, story. And she's like, let's talk about the money. So a $500 project, that ain't Liz. And trust me, that ain't Liz. A $500 phone calls Liz. But I take that back. She has the hard money conversation up front, and then it filters out the bad folks.

Right.

What'd you learn?

Well, I thought when you asked her the. The always great question of if you, you know, if. How would you do things different if you were going to start again 18 years ago? And she basically said, I'd network more and be exposed to more people. And she also mentioned she would want to talk to more of the right people. I thought that was interesting.

Yeah. And she clearly now, because I've worked with her, I guess I'm inside scoop. She knows how to vet out people, the size of business, the type of business they're in. Some people talk a big game and then have no money to back it. And she has filters set for that.

That's like an art, isn't it?

It's an art, but she has documented, so it's some science to it also.

Okay.

One other thing I wanted to share is that I like that she said, make the client follow the process. When you have an iterative, iterative, iterative, iterative. When you have an iterative business where there's lots of this back and forth, you got to lay the ground rules for the client because if you don't, they go down their own paths. And they take you so far off the tracks, you're going to start losing money. So she has. I mean, documentation, but also the fortitude to enforce that documentation with clients so that they can't go down these iterative divs.

Yes, and keep going. Yeah, and she also would have got the right accountant, which. That's a subject we might have to do and cover in another episode. How do you know if you have the right accountant? I mean, seriously, what if a couple years go by, everything seems okay? How do you know?

I love it. I'm writing that one down because she.

She thought she had a great accountant, and then all of a sudden, she owes 11 grand, which was a mistake.

Yeah, dude, we got a rock and roll. We gotta get out of here now. But before we do, three things. First, some info about you. Where can people learn more about Chris Curran?

Yes, they could find me@factalrecording.com that's my company.

Yeah. And that's where we're recording this. So if you want your own podcast, dude, virtual, reach out to Chris.

Yeah, baby.

How about you, Mike Michalowicz is my name. Profits, my game. The book's called Profit first. And if you go to profitfirstprofessionals.com resources and stuff, there also a big shout out to Harry Glasscock. We appreciate you participating in this one. If you're listening in, you're awesome. If you're not listening in, I get it.

I'm totally sound clipping that of you saying his name.

Yeah. Over and over.

Eclipse in the future. Yeah, absolutely. So this has been great. So thank you for listening. Thank you for your feedback. We really do appreciate your feedback.

And thanks for the jejune.

Right.

Thanks for the bonhomie and the jejune.

And the palombu you gave Mike McCallow. It's a whole education here. So you can again, profit firstpodcast.com. that's the website. And you can find us on itunes and stitcher. And thanks for listening. And seriously, give us your feedback. And we've had all kinds of great past guests too, so anything else, Mike?

That's it for me.

All right, Rock on. Thanks, guys.