Jon Berghoff: Getting the Most Out of Your Team

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Great, Mike.

That was the most inauthentic that's great Mike ever. My name is Mike Michalowicz. I'm an author on a mission. A mission to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty. I've written multiple books. Maybe you've heard of profit first Clockwork, my brand new one. Fix this Next. If you don't have a copy, stop, put this on pause and pick up a copy of Amazon right now. Fix this Next. It's releasing very soon, but you can get your copy on the first day. It's out at fix this next.com or go to Amazon and pick it up right there. All right, Kelsey, over to you.

Hello, friend. Thank you for listening. And if you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening.

And also in studio, we have Jay Kabloner.

Hello.

How are you, sir?

Good.

You didn't motorcycle up today in this cold weather, I assume?

No. I can still get a couple rides in, though, before.

Well, I was coming home from the airport yesterday or a few days ago from Newark Airport. And it was 35. A couple floors were coming down, and there's a guy goes beelining by me on a motorcycle. And I'm like, he's free. The guy must be freezing.

Yeah.

How do you. How do you drive in that kind of temperature?

Just wear layers. You gotta wear a lot of layers. I. I have heated grips. That's amazing.

Oh, they make that on bikes? I know they have that on, like, ATVs or something.

That's good. So your hands don't get numb.

Yeah, it's surprisingly. Really. They get hot. Like, if you turn it up really high, your hands will, like, sweat because it's so hot.

Okay.

And then I have. They're called Barkbusters. It's. It's like a plastic guard in the front so it stops the wind. Just that alone.

Oh, it goes over your chest?

No, it goes over your hands. Oh. So just that prevents at least the. The wind from.

Why do they call it Bark Busters?

Because they put them on dirt bikes and things. So that way when you go off roading, you know, you. If you, like, hit a tree or.

Oh, bark on a tree. I was thinking of a dog.

Yeah.

Oh. So it's not designed for wind exclusively. It's for.

Well, it's just for protection in general. Yeah. Yeah.

I got an X on my bingo board. Look at this motorcycle.

You asked me about that.

I know I did, but you said it. Am I not allowed to?

That's ridiculous.

Well, very smart, sir.

Yeah, I almost. I almost rode. So, I mean, you guys both know I was really sick. My cousin had her thing on Saturday.

Oh, yeah, I hear about this.

And I told her, and I said, amanda, I'm really sick. And she was like, well, if you don't show up, I have to cancel. I can't do it.

Right, well, refresh our audience. They may not. What was it?

So it's a murder mystery dinner, and my cousin holds it every year. And this year was white trash. Or not white trash. It was trailer park murder. Something. That's the name of it. And so we've been planning this for, like, three months. Everybody wears outfits, dresses up. It's a whole thing. And I got severely ill on Thursday, I think was the first day. And the thing was Saturday, and I had a fever, but I got best dressed, so I got my award.

And is it like a pity award, though?

No, actually, they. I went with the face tattoos, and everybody said that was really hardcore.

You have face tattoos?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Hold on.

Wait, I got it. Yeah, I got a sleeve. I Got it on my arm still.

Oh, pull it up. Pull your shirt off, man. So I pull his arm sleeve up. Oh, there's something up there. It looks like a real.

Yeah, it says Wyatt.

Wow, that's amazing. That looks like a real tattoo.

Yeah, the company's in Philly. It's called Momentary Ink Shout Out. They did a really good job.

Oh, did you actually have to go and get inked on you?

No, no. You order them and then you use, like, water. It's a special material. Use water and then they have a liquid that you rub on and it takes the shine out.

How long is that tat stay on?

If you take care of it. Supposed to last, like, over a week.

Wow. Jeremy.

Yeah.

Cool.

It's pretty cool.

Well, yeah, for the face tats. What was this?

So Post Malone, the rapper?

Yeah.

He's got a little Playboy bunny, and then under his eyes it says, always tired.

So classic.

The funny thing was I forgot my medicine. So on the way there, you were tired? Well, I was gonna stop at Wawa, and then I looked in the mirror right before I got out and I remembered. No, I was like, I'll just. I'll figure it out later.

I wish you got pulled over by a police officer or something like that. That's so funny.

Yeah.

And it's not even Halloween, so it would be.

I know. Yeah. It would be weird.

What have you been up to, Kelsey? Anything going on at the house? You're seeing a lot of friends over there, right?

I am, yeah. I have my best friend from growing up since before kindergarten. She came over on Saturday and we went for a long hike and we had breakfast and it was so nice.

That's super cool. Are you still planning to Airbnb your house?

I am, yeah.

So when. When's that gonna happen?

Hoping in June.

Oh, so that's still a ways out.

Yeah.

And what you need to have your house Airbnb ready.

So I'm gonna put cables around my deck, the post deck, so people can't. Yeah. Just in case kids.

Come on.

Anybody. Right. And I also want to fix. The water pressure in my house is really low, so I have a plumber coming out who's going to help me fix it, so.

Okay. And then. Oh, have you guys got your gutters cleaned? You're living in an apartment, Jeremy.

Yeah.

So you have to worry about it.

Then I. I have a gutter cleaning robot if you need it.

Yeah, I do need it.

Yeah. It's really cool.

I'll bring it up.

Yeah.

Although I'm a Little bit scared that.

Don't you. Don't do it yourself.

I'll be enough to.

Yeah, don't do it yourself.

Well, it depends on how high is it. Second floor gutters or.

Yeah, but the one side is, like three and a half stories.

Oh, yeah.

Two and a half stories.

That's how I bought it.

No, this one side is three stories. Yeah.

When I lived in Westchester, it was scary. I put a ladder up there one day, and I got to the top, and it's wobbling.

And I was like, I don't like ladders. That's the thing.

We went up to Kelsey's house and took a tour of it. And you have a deck off your master bedroom, and you are up in the trees. Like, you are up, dude.

It's like a treehouse.

It's like a treehouse.

That's really awesome, though.

Yeah. So we just. My wife just text me, we have the gutter guys over. I. I think two years ago, I did it myself. We. We. No, maybe three years ago. We were still renting, and I was just cleaning the guys myself. I went on the roof once. I almost. I started to slip. I was like this. I'm done. I'm done.

I, like, get paralyzed. I have a fear of heights or I just can't move.

You just cling.

Yeah. And then I feel like, you know, your body doesn't move right because you're.

Like, oh, it even worsens it.

It'll function.

I am so bad with heights. I actually feel compelled to finish it right there. If I'm exposed on a roof like that. Mike.

You know what?

Just.

Just jump, Mike. I know. Seriously. There's this little compel compulsion size. Like, just. Just finish it up. Isn't that weird?

That's very weird.

You know, it's funny.

My father is the same.

You fly a lot. And I think it's the same with me. I'm super afraid of heights, but when I'm in a plane and I look down, it's surreal. So it's not, you know, but would you go skydiving?

No, maybe I don't want to. Actually, I almost did. My daughter's boyfriend was gonna go skydiving with my daughter, and then for some reason, she couldn't go. And he's like, hey, you want to go? I'm like, yeah. And then Krista found out. She's like, you're not going. Yeah, you're not going.

Wow.

It is a super risky thing. Like, people do actually die doing.

Yeah, well, it's always tandem, so at least you got that going.

I'll tell you a way to know what not to do. Next time you go to a doctor's office and they do that pre check in thing, anything that says, have you done this? And you choose, yes, that's something you shouldn't do. Like, do you drink more than once a day? Yes. Don't do that. One of it says, do you have a risk factor? Yeah, it says, do you skydive? Yeah, it says, do you skydive? So I'm like, okay, no. So any of those yeses are things I won't do. That's my whole thing. Except for the drinking.

Yeah. I was gonna say that's on my.

Bucket list, though, is drinking.

Yes. Skydiving.

Oh, skydiving. Yeah, it's on the list, man.

Because they say it doesn't feel like you're falling. It's not like a roller coaster feeling. They say it feels like you hit terminal velocity so fast you just float. Because the wind resistance, you know, that sounds cool.

Hey, let's just give a big shout to nextiva. Thank you for being our corporate partner. We'll give you more details on them in a little bit. We also had a fan, right? In Cal, I hope. I'm just guessing, did we. Is there any. Oh, thank God. I can't wait for that video. I can't wait because your face is like, no, we did. No, we did. What'd they say? Who isn't what they say?

This is in response to. Mike sent a video message to Morgan Cohen and she writes, omfg. I just got a personal message from Mike Michalowicz. This is freaking awesome. Seriously, thank you. I have been inspired by you and your team. Podcast is so great and I'm now working hard to implement Prava first, it's been pretty tough going because of a six month setback emergency triple bypass surgery. If that doesn't make you do things, what will happen? But I am working hard over here. Looking forward to your book and to meeting you sometime in the near future, Morgan.

I would love to meet with you. Happy you got my video. That's something I want our listeners to consider. Great way to build a rapport with the people you're working with or your fans or your colleagues. Is through video. We use Bombbomb. Bonjour is another one. They're both.

So it's not boom boom. In the past you refer to it boom boom. I've heard you on the phone with you. Like I use this thing called boom boom. Seriously? You say seriously, but he doesn't even realize it.

That's great.

And there's a folder in the drive. This is boom boom. And I was like, what is boom boom? And I looked, and it's like, you see bom bom videos.

Hold on. There's a directory that says boom.

Like B o o n. There's a dry folder. It says boom boom.

That's awesome. Boom boom. Until you use boom boom.

Are you getting more videos for her? Her sizzle reel of getting them for your sizzle reel.

Oh, I was gonna do you next.

That's right.

I don't need to do me there. That was for the video. All right, let's get into the show at hand. We have John Berghoff, who joined us today. You know, we're gonna be talking about facilitating teams in a healthy, productive way. And sadly, I think most teams, it's more kind of like a dictatorship. Like, the boss says, this is the way we're doing things, and I think people comply. I was reading Crucial Conversations. That's what we have to read. Have you been reading that book House?

Not yet.

Okay. It's really interesting because they talk about how most conversations are actually dominated by one party, and then when there's any conflict, it becomes confrontational, not productive. Well, I did a call with John and subsequently have watched some of his training, and what his company, Exchange, does is is they've developed a very specific methodology where there's true collaboration and there is no leader in the traditional sense of. I'm gonna tell you the way it is. We're gonna follow my way. There's a leader in regards to facilitation now, and all people have equal input. And usually it seems like the best solution is a collective solution. So the question is, how do you do it? And you're about to find out because our guest John's joining us. John, welcome to our show.

Welcome, John.

Hey, thanks, Mike. Kelsey. Jay. Good to be here.

So let's get right into why most teams don't work in this collaborative or purportedly. There you go. There's a word for you, Kelsey. Purportedly collaborative environment. Why do most teams not get the best out of each other?

Yeah, it's a good question. I'll tell you what. I don't think everybody wakes up saying, let's make each other's lives miserable at work today. And I don't think the boss or the manager wakes up thinking, how can I dominate command, and control and stifle people's creativity? So I think there's a lot of good intentions. I Think what's interesting is a lot of what we believe and how we behave around the idea of managing and leading, because that's where some responsibility needs to lie, is based in paradigms and ways of thinking that were born, frankly, a hundred years ago. And I think it starts with maybe seeing what it means to lead a little differently. You just said it a minute ago that leadership. Maybe if we start to see it as a collective sport versus an individual's job, we might start to see new ways to tap into the hearts and minds of our people.

Okay, so we don't intend to go in that way. But I've been to these meetings, John, where, gosh, it goes right to the boss saying how they want it and everyone else nodding their head and saying, okay.

It's demoralizing, right?

Yeah. And sometimes you hear the idea and it's a bad idea. But the question is, do I confront the idea because it's bad, but if I do, I could lose a job or lose some respect in the kind of social web.

Yeah. Well, I think what you're drawing attention to is maybe a couple of things. I think it's. I think that the role of a manager or a leader, I think we need to stop and kind of question our historical definitions around that. Right. So I think when I was first taught to be a manager a couple decades ago, I was. I remember thinking, well, I'm supposed to have the answers, right? And it takes a certain shift in values. It takes a humility, a real curiosity to think, well, maybe, maybe, maybe I do have some answers, but maybe if I really want to engage my best people, I've got to think about the right questions to ask, to invite them, to bring their voices, their strengths, to discover together what their shared purpose or aspirations are. So I think that's one part of it is the manager maybe rediscovering an expanded role of what it means to be a manager. The other part that you alluded to, though, that I think is a big deal, is kind of the climate that we. And what we value in that climate or culture. And you just talked about the idea of not feeling safe. Right. And I think this is a very interesting time around this conversation around culture, because in 1999, a Harvard researcher, Amy Edmondson, published what I believe is one of the first papers on the concept of psychological safety. And it took what's been 20 years for us to accept that that might be the most important condition for people to feel safe so that they can actually take risks and contribute their best selves Google did a study seven years ago that they, your Google, you can discover anything you want. They wanted to figure out what creates a high performing team. They did a meta study of all studies and right near at the top of their understandings is what Amy had figured out, I don't know, 15 years before that, that we have to figure out how to create a psychologically safe environment so that people can now bring their best selves.

All right, so I want to get right into the how to, how do you create a psychologically safe environment for your team and yourself?

Yeah, it's probably a lot easier to write in a paper than it is to do. It's so I think it starts with those who hold the responsibility of everybody else's experience. Right. That part of the role of somebody in a leadership or management position is to, to create the conditions for people to bring their best selves. And if we're all going to, if we're going to agree with this research or our life experience and say that yeah, we need to create this safe environment, it starts with those in those roles really looking in the mirror and asking themselves, am I embodying the kinds of values that will reflect and refract outward in ways that help others to feel safe? What are those values? Right. And one way to figure that out is to look at, you know, to start to deconstruct what psychological safety really is. Right. And their values of really valuing inclusion. Am I willing to bring voices into conversations that maybe previously I wouldn't have brought in? Valuing people being willing to be wrong, allowing people to make mistakes. Right. Because the pure definition of psychological safety, I think it's those two things. It's do we create space for voices to be brought in and is it okay for people to take risks? So that's a starting point. But then there's some practical tactical stuff too. And the practical tactical. And this is where what we do at exchange is. It's kind of where the rubber hits the road is, are we designing, are we choreographing interactions so that people are being connected and included in ways that are very intentional? Right. Because the faster in our meetings, voices are brought in, all eyes get to really see, hear and feel everybody else's eyes and hearts. Through inviting people into conversations, we can act, we can accelerate that outcome of safety and we can do it reliably and repeatedly. And that, that gets really cool when you can take something that sounds really difficult to do or soft or, and make it practical. So that's a starting point. I Don't know if that made any sense.

Oh, it totally makes sense. I wonder. This may be a specific scenario. I think some of our listeners have business partners, and may they have a small team, four or five other folks, they have that team meeting, and maybe one of the partners, you know, she embraces your idea. The other partner. Yeah, not so much. And now you have one person that's trying to be inclusive, protective, inviting mistakes, allowing that, and the other one stomps on that. Is there a way, if only one person buys into this approach, for it still to be successful?

Yeah, I think there is. And I think it. It has to start with us modeling what we're hoping for or expecting from others. Right. So, I mean, here's a classic example. You know, I think about my relationship with my wife, and I just had this the other day where we were driving to dinner, and I remember I was. I was defending my position on something. And I remember about 10 minutes into the conversation, I actually no longer agreed with my own position. But I couldn't. I couldn't change. I couldn't go back.

Right.

Because my whole identity was tied into this.

So was the position. She should take out the garbage.

Yeah, exactly.

It's a losing proposition.

So I think what we can all relate to is when we have these moments of tension in our conversations, the real challenge is in those moments. What's the inner dialogue? That's where it all starts. Right. We could talk about what do you say, what do you do? And you get that in a textbook. But it has to start within. And my best attempt at solving this big question that you're asking is in these moments of tension. And by the way, tension like disagreement. If we don't have disagreements, then we're not creating anything worthwhile. Right? If we're trying to do something new, exciting, big, innovative, we sure as heck better want differing perspectives. We have to invite that and know that in those moments of tension, something good is probably seeking to be born. But where everything matters is in that moment is my priority to protect, defend, or control? Because, you know, if I share an idea with you, Mike Kelsey, and you don't like the idea, here's the hard part is, can I hear you without hearing you say that you don't like me? Because that's how we interpret it, right? Because as soon as my ego thinks, well, they don't like me, now I only have one priority, and we all know what it is. It's like defend, control, protect. And we're all adults, so we can make it look like, we're still collaborative and in a dialogue, but what we're really doing, and we all know what this looks like, none of us have ever done this, right? What's really happening, we call this an over overlapping monologue, right? Like we're pretending to be, you know, really listening, but we're just preparing what we're going to say next. So that's what we don't want. Right? And you asked, what do you do? There's two of you, five of you. So in those moments where there's this natural, real conflict, I think starting inward, before you talk about, you know, what we do on the outside, we've got to stop and ask a new question. And instead of asking the question, how can I prove my point? And by the way, there's a mountain of empirical data, and if you look at the work of Peter Sange and all the research they've done on what they call a learning organization, if you look at the work that's come out of the fields of positive psychology and go on and on and on and on, there is a measurable trajectory that teams that are high performing when they are sitting in these very conversations that you're talking about, the teams that win, the teams that thrive, are the teams that visibly, measurably show up where we are just as open to being influenced as we are trying to influence others. Right? Am I open to allowing my perspective to evolve? Because to the degree that I am, versus I'm just here to convince you we will thrive as a team. There's a mountain of research that has validated that in many different environments. So how do you do it? I think it could just start with one question, which is in that moment, can I ask myself, well, wait a minute, not how can I be right? But what's our shared purpose? Why are we both sitting at this table? What is it that we both want? And maybe one more question would be Mike and Kelsey, they don't like what I'm saying right now. What could I learn from their perspective? Because maybe if I can just suspend my reaction for a moment and learn, then together we'll find this third higher ground, alternative possibility. Right? And so let's go back to the start of your question. How do you do this? I think it's easy to talk about on a podcast conversation, but it starts with what's going on inside and then this will get reflected out. But we got to model it versus just try and tell it other people to get along. Right? I don't. Hopefully that makes sense.

Yeah.

So I got a. Yeah, but for you. But John. Yeah, but I've got this company I've been running for five years. I, I've hired people and, and we, we need to get work done. So they just gotta follow my instruction. I know this business inside now and may maybe, yeah, maybe they do have some knowledge and some insights that could help me. But that's not how we, that's not how our business has been. So my questions are really around the transition. How do I transition to this? Will it even be perceived as effective? Because for the last five years it's been a very authoritative, singular opinion of mine direction. How do I start embracing my team and will they even buy that or will they see as the latest gimmick?

Yeah, it's a good question. It's a good question. I think, I think we have to remember that humility is one of the most attractive qualities in a leader. And I think we have to remember that being willing to listen and keep in mind. I don't know if I've said this but I hope I didn't say the job of a manager is just to listen to everybody else's ideas and execute those ideas. That's not the point. The point is how can we find ways to be more inclusive of others voices knowing that there's a lot of benefits to that regardless of whether or not those voices are going to have all the best answers. So I think there's an attractiveness to humility and the curiosity that gets coupled with humility. Let's just look at it this way. If we agree with the idea that one of our most important competitive advantages are talented people, then those talented people need to fit feel that they're at least being heard, that they're at least being listened to. I think that's what they want. I don't think they would expect that every idea is executed upon, but I think great. You know, people don't leave companies, they leave managers and leaders. And our most talented people I think are going to respect us even more if they see that we have the humility to be curious about what they think.

Over my 12 years of being an author devoted to the small business entrepreneur, I've discovered the biggest challenge and you know what it is? It's profitability. That's why I wrote Profit first and that's why I'm now hosting a two day workshop here at my offices in Boonton, New Jersey where I will teach you and my team will teach you how to become permanently profitable. Go to profitfirstlive.com right now to get details again, profitfirstlive.com, find the dates that work for you, and I'll see you here at my office. Hmm. What about the entrenched? I don't know if that's the right word, but the entrenched beliefs I have of what works and what doesn't. And then maybe Kelsey comes to me and says, I got a way to do this. And she explains something that I've tried in the past. It won't work if I don't listen to that. If I shoot her down, say, you know, Kelsey, we've tried in the past. It is not a good idea. May I? Am I starting to squash the exact thing I'm setting out to achieve is getting feedback and direction from Kelsey by squashing things? And is there a way to approach something like that?

Yeah. Also a great question. I'd want to sit with that one for a minute. I'd want to sit with that one.

Well, Kelsey's not the sharpest tool on the show, so it takes time.

Can I also say, too, though, if you have the trust in a relationship, like, you know, let's say this is a real life scenario, I, on the flip side, have. If I can separate my ego from the situation. Right. And I am learning from what you're saying to me and that you've been through this before, I'm coming at it without that depth of experience. So if I can put my ego aside, then that's just a learning experience for both of us, right?

Totally.

Yeah.

And if there's that trust already between us, then.

Right, but then how do I not get this negative momentum where I'm like, see, I saved us from wasted effort and wasted time by shooting down Kelsey's idea. How do I not start justifying repeating.

That behavior from my perspective, just validating that the idea in itself was good?

John, are we in marriage counseling right.

Now, me and Kelsey?

You tricked us into it. That's funny. So, yeah. So what do we do here? So Kelsey makes an excellent point, John. She may say she needs to be open to listening to it, but I also need to give too. But maybe by her giving some slack, I will start giving slack too. What's your thoughts?

Yeah, I think part of it comes down to deciding culturally what we want to model and what we want to embody. And you guys have to forgive. Forgive me here. About three minutes ago, as you started to ask the initial question, I had a UPS man walk into my office, had no idea that we were in A conversation asked me to sign something. I attempted to. Normally we have a sign on the door. I attempted to sign it and come back in and I realized I completely missed the question that they were asking.

Oh, that's why you said that's such a good question. Let me ponder that. That's awesome, dude. I think it's the first time someone admitted to that on the show. This is the best thing, John. Here's the best. Basically no one's listens to the show, even our listeners. So we're good.

It's so great. I should have turned the camera because you know, you had me video this. Like I did it all. I'm like, oh, I can't let the YouTube see it. It's so great.

Oh my God. So you, you were forced to admit to it. So this is really, this is good. You were saying something because you think that's what you wanted us to hear. That's actually pretty common, I think in these, these meetings is, you know, I own the business. Kelsey is now president of the company. She runs the business. Jeremy's brand. He's our first most. I shouldn't say he's our most recent full time employee and he's been working with us for a while. But Jeremy may feel it's in his best interest to placate or answer or give feedback in a way that will be received well by Kelsey because she dictates a salary be received well by me. I'm a shareholder in the business. As opposed to speaking his absolute truth just like you did because the UPS guy. So that humanness I think kicks in. What do we do?

Yeah, one of the things that I think about with our, you just described by the way, our office here, we've got a small team and one of the things that I've tried to embody is allowing my team to see me visibly change my mind. And what happens is when I go out of my way to allow them to see me to change my perspective, I buy some credibility at those times where I'm not going to change my perspective. Right. So there's a give and a take.

I love that. I love that. How can an employee stand up for something they know is right, even against resistance? And I can't really think of a scenario, but there's sometimes you as an employee and I'm not saying yet you're, you're a whistleblower. I'm just saying there's something that you see that has to be done but the leadership or the ownership doesn't see it. Is there a tactic to be persuasive, persistent, but not confrontational?

Yeah, you know, I don't know if in my area of focus, in the work that we do, I don't know if I have, I don't know if I have a qualified answer for that. And the only reason I say that is because everything we do is about in group environments. So everything that we do is about how do we enable a group together to tackle a problem or capture an opportunity. So I actually, I don't. There's not a lot of focus in our work on some of these one to one scenarios, and forgive me, because that might be a big opportunity for your audience, but a lot of our work is in how do we enable a group all at once to tackle a problem or capture an opportunity. So one thing I would share that might be helpful here is we have a firm belief that when we are facing a challenge or a problem, that the way we approach that problem is really important. And specifically, what are the questions that we ask around that problem. So let me give an interesting example. One of the, one of the great challenges I think can arise when in a small team you're dealing with problems and somebody wants to bring it up, per your example here is it is in some cases they don't feel safe bringing it up and that leads to a whole bunch of downstream consequences. In other cases we do bring it up, but we might not have a really effective way that we're actually working through it. And one of the things that we believe in significantly is that the very first questions that we present around a problem are a big deal. And I'll just give you a real specific example here. So British Airways, years ago, they wanted to use the foundational approach that we use in our work. And they brought in a team of consultants and said, hey, we want to fix a problem and the problem we want to fix is our lost baggage problem. Right. And if you're an airline, that's a really rational problem to want to fix. And the team that went in, gave them a little bit of training and said, we'd encourage you to be really careful around the question that you're asking before we work together. And they taught them about this importance of choosing the right first question to ask. The British Airways team put their head together, they came back and they said, we get it, we're not going to sit here and we're not going to ask the question how do we fix our lost baggage problem? Instead we're going to ask a different question. And the Question that we are going to ask is, how do we create an exceptional arrival experience? And then every subsequent question after that is actually going to be a strength focused question that allows us to study when we have been. When we are already doing things that create an exceptional arrival experience. And then what could it look like to be phenomenal at creating a brand new exceptional arrival experience? What does all this have to do with that one employee being afraid to bring something up or how do they bring up a challenge? I think what's important is whether it's a whole system of people, which is where we spend all of our time, or one person thinking about the very question that is driving our conversations can allow everybody to get a lot further a lot faster. Right. I don't know if that makes sense.

That does make sense. You know the final question, because we're getting tight on time now as we have our corporate retreat coming up. Kelsey, is that in the new year?

Yeah.

Okay.

So awesome.

John. Yeah. So there's eight of us roughly going. John, can you give us just a basic outline of how do you structure a good full day team?

Buckle in.

Strap it on.

Strap it on. You got one day together and eight of you.

Yes.

All right.

It's more like two days.

Oh, it's a two day.

Yeah.

All right. What is most important for you to come out of those two days with? Like, what's the outcome that you want from that? What's the big opportunity? What's the big challenge? What do you want out of that? Is it alignment around vision, goal setting, your identity, your culture, all of that?

I think it's kind of all of that, definitely. Alignment and goal setting, but also empowerment, folks. Feeling ownership of their roles and feeling empowered to fail within them, to really take creative justice in them and own it fully. Yeah.

Great. Do you have an aspiration for you as a group to be aligned around a shared strategy, a shared vision and collective commitments towards that, or is it mostly about people focusing individually towards a strategy or vision that's already been decided on?

No, I think working towards a combined strategy, vision together.

Okay, cool. Okay, cool. So there's. There's probably four conversations that if we were designing this retreat, we would encourage. And by the way, the one we're not even going to talk about is the whole space itself. We're big believers that the physical setting.

Oh, cool.

Of where you host any meeting, everything that somebody can see, hear or feel has an impact on their ability to think individually and collectively. So that's a whole other segment. But you ask, you're going to design a retreat. You got two days. The first question that I would present to your entire group is, why is it that us coming together to collectively shape our future is important? And there'd be three sub questions to that. Number one, why is it important to me personally? Number two, why is it important to us, the eight of us? Number three, why is it important to everyone not in this room? The customers, communities, our families? The ripple that this work will have. And here's what we've learned is it's not only about the right question, but just as importantly is what we call the choreography of how those eight people actually work. With that question, because you could present it and not give space to work through it, we would give you that question with those sub questions. There's a whole kind of thinking behind that. And then we would have you break into groups of three or four, three or four. And we'd say share your answers with each other for about 10 minutes. And then at the 10 minute mark, we'd say, now as a group, you have a poster, a flip chart, some markers, and here's what you're going to do. You got 10 more minutes and you're going to answer this question. Why are we hear. And each of the small groups is going to deliver two things in about 10 minutes. One is a shared purpose statement, 10 words or less. Number two is an image that they're going to create, a metaphor. It's not about perfect artwork, but any sort of image that symbolizes, embodies, or carries the essence of everybody's answer that's combined. So what the heck are we talking about here? What we've seen is so important, is when you have a group of people coming together, it's a day, two days, three days, eight people or a thousand people, which we've done the first 30 minutes. You need to uncover what is our truly legitimately shared purpose for being in this room right now. And it can't be somebody telling everybody why we're here, right? It has to be the voices of that group crowdsourced and synthesized up into an answer. And that whole thing can happen in 30 minutes. And actually, those posters or flip charts, we then decorate the walls with those for the next two days. We're constantly reminded by the words and images that we started with. That's conversation number one. Conversation number I keep going. I could stop.

Well, yeah, give us in like 30 seconds or less, give us the last bullet points. We gotta roll.

Conversation number two is what's been working. Flood the room with Stories of what's been working, and then asked, what is it about these moments when we were at our best that we need to keep perpetuating? Right. And then conversation number three is, a year from now, what do we want to be celebrating? And there's a whole way of actually asking that question and giving yourself space to creatively show each other what you want the future to look like a year from now. And then conversation four, which is the second afternoon, is what are we going to commit to individually and collectively, to bring the best of when we have been functioning well to these images of what we want so that we can convert these into committed actions. Those would be the four conversations over two days.

Super helpful.

And I hope you eat really good food throughout it.

Are we going to eat good food, Ken? Yeah. Drinking. We're going to have some drinks at the bar and stuff. Is that appropriate, or is that something that should be avoided?

It's fine. It's fine. Just, you know, don't rely on that. Don't rely on that.

Right, yeah. Don't let that be the social grease.

Shouldn't the question as to why we're there be to teach you how to snowboard?

It should be. I need to learn.

I love it.

John, we got a rock and roll. But before we let you go, where can our listeners learn more about your organization?

They can go to our website, leadtoflourish.com the word lead number two, flourish.com or find me on Facebook.

Awesome.

Good.

So we'll have the links below. John, can't wait to see you in Puerto Rico, and thank you so much for joining us today.

See you in just a few days. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right, brother. We'll see you. Cheers. Can't touch this. Hey, I want to thank our corporate partner before we do the other stuff. Kels, right?

Yeah.

Okay, so I want to thank Nick Steva, voiceover IP phone system and CRM. You know, they had nexcon just a week or two ago. That was their big annual conference. By the time this comes, this goes live, their new CRM will be fully out, but they released it at nexcon, the beta version, and come back with some very positive comments. So next diva, check them out. All right, Kel. Jay Sloan, what'd you learn from John?

Put a sign on your door so the UPS guy doesn't interrupt the podcast.

Is that crazy? That's so awesome. I love Dude. He's the only guest that just admitted it. I love that.

Yeah, that's great. I love it now. Just humility. You know, that goes really far. Ask questions around the problems. There's a. There's a great book. It's called the Question behind the Question. Oh, and that talks about that kind of stuff. It's good. Reminded me of that. And then valuing inclusion and willing to be wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Loved it. Kels, can I go?

Of course you can.

So thank you. Is that proper dialogue? You're really welcome. I appreciate your accommodation for my request. I appreciate your response to that. I appreciate you appreciating that. I thought allowing mistakes and people to be wrong is a good thing as opposed to using that as a leverage point to you. You screwed this up. And I know I've done that shamefully. I love this. This concept of the overlapping monologue where you're kind of listening, but you're really preparing for the response. To defend humility is the most attractive feature of a leader. I thought that was super amazing. And I like the poster board in the beginning, just to sit down and say, why are we here? But not. Not just we. Why are you here? Why are we here? And how. Why are people that are not in this room being included? Or how are they being included? I thought that was super cool. Cass, what were your takeaways?

So I really love when he said, in moments of tension.

Bingo. Bingo.

Because I said love again. You can't use it again.

Yes, you can.

It started a new round.

Congratulations.

That's why my phone was going crazy, because I was queuing up an air horn.

Oh, my God, bro. So what. What did you bingo her on? So easy, Kelsey. So easy.

I got very limited vocabulary.

Great friends and love.

Great friends in love.

Yeah.

That's only two words. You have to get three.

No. Great. Friends and love.

Oh, the word great word friends. I don't know. Yeah, great, great, great. Yeah. Dude, that's like saying the.

No, it's not.

It's like saying not. You said not. No. I don't know.

All right, all right, fine.

Great.

Find you one.

I'll keep going.

You know, you're a winner. This go around. Next time, I want more comprehensive phrases. Take that and smoke it.

All right, Coco, when he said, in moments of tension, you know, take pause and think about what your inner dialogue is. Because oftentimes it is they don't like me or I'm not good enough or I'm not worthy.

Yes.

And I think really then taking stock and not being defensive, but listening to what you can learn from what they are saying. And oftentimes it's those moments of tension or those pain points where it is something that you need to learn and you need to pay attention, you know?

Yep. Yep. Good.

I really love that.

Our listening friends, we want to know what you learned too. So please give us an honest rating and honest review and give us your feedback on the review. It's a great way for us to spread the word, so thank you. You know, I think Jeremy deserves the points on that one. Just the fact he was paying attention to the bingo. All right, I got a game for us, guys.

Good job, Jer.

Good job, Jer. I got a game for us. It's another one of those product games. Two of these are fake, one are real. Jaycob, Lone, Kelsey Ayers, you're the contestants. I'll just start reading them.

Okay.

Okay. You know the rules. I don't need to explain again. There's a product called the baby Mop. Nothing distracts. Listen, this is the copy I wrote. Nothing distracts you from caring for your home like caring for your baby. That's true. Right. And when that little one starts calling around, you definitely do not want to be cleaning your house. It was this challenge that caused us to ask a better question. What if your baby did the cleaning? Question mark. Meet your new baby mop. This simple slip on onesie has a fully functioning dust mop on the front of the outfit. As your baby crawls along your hardwood floors, the dust mop picks up all the debris. Happily happy baby beautiful floors. Baby squeegee has been discontinued. Oh, baby squeegee is discontinued. Simply shake out your baby over the garbage and get the dust.

Throw at your own copy and you mess it up.

Yeah, I messed up my own cup.

Okay.

That's a baby mop. The bar bubble. It's not what you think. Jeremy, have you ever been at a bar and it's so loud you can't hear the person sitting next to you?

That's very funny.

I hate that. I hate that.

Right?

I absolutely hate that.

What'd you say? I don't know. What do you say? You come back, you lost your voice. You haven't heard a thing. Your ears are ringing. Well, guess what? The bar bubble, patent pending, is a large plastic bubble that you both put over your heads into the block to put over your heads to block out the outside noise and hear the other in serenity. Finally, you can talk like normal people again. Basic. Basic model includes air holes.

Nice.

Reducing decibel levels by 15%. The advanced model has an oxygen tank feed with no external holes, reducing decibel levels by up to 40 decibels. Tanks operate for four hours of continual use. Got six hours. I'm taking it back.

Six hours drinking.

Jeremy, you had this in your closet. It's called the Fundies undies. You don't know intimacy until you share a pair of underwear. Is that ridiculous? That's the. If there's any intimacy I don't want, it's shared underwear. The brand new fundies is the first ever. Did you snort?

No.

The first ever two person underwear with four leg holes and one shared trunk opening. Putting it on. What trunk?

I like the top.

It's called the trunk.

The waistline.

Never mind. I think like the penis. Yeah. There's only one.

One massive trunk. Putting on. Putting it on is the fun part. Two really close friends not included. Okay, so two of those products are actually real.

I feel like all these should not exist.

Baby mop. I mean, that's pretty realistic.

I think I got it.

Barbowel. Fundy undies. Kelsey goes first this time because Jason, you've been dominating Jeremy. Except for last week. You did get last week.

Kelsey, I'm gonna say the bar bubble. Only because Funnies, unnies. I feel like that could exist as like a prank kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah, right. Some of these could be prank products.

And baby mop. I. I feel like that could be legit.

Makes you want to have a baby, doesn't it?

No.

To clean your house. You wouldn't have a baby just so you clean your house.

That's the worst reason to have a baby.

How much cleaning do you do at your house?

Not that much.

Well, that, that's the problem. You don't have a baby, Kelsey.

No, I don't need to do that much cleaning is what I meant.

Oh, Jeremy, I. I love the baby mop. That's like my kind of invention. Like I can see myself like having a beer and my kids on the floor and I'm like, oh, genius.

Yeah, right, right. I love you having a beer. I love the visual. You sitting back checking a beer.

Yeah.

He's like, I would use all these products.

He's already crawling on the floor. Might as well.

Fundy undies. Do you have them?

I like the funny undies. The bar bubble. I gotta go. Same as Kelsey.

Wow, Risky.

I know.

Risky. Jeremy usually does the kind of the block and tackle. He's like, well, everyone else voted for this. I'm gonna. Because he wants to have at least one winner. There's a risk here that both you lost is what I'm saying.

Yeah.

So let's Talk about the baby mop first. Okay. The baby mop is a real product. There's actually multiple versions of this. So I don't know if it's a prank or if someone actually bought the. I'm sure it's kind of a joke gift, but I bet you someone's bought this saying, oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, that's a good idea.

I mean, they're crawling around there anyway. You might as well catch that.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

Which just think and then inhale them and.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking now. Now the baby's got all this. I think it's actually a ridiculous idea. Oh, they have black mold in their lungs now.

Well, you know how they have. The Swiffers. They have. They look like noodles, but they're microfiber noodles. That's what I imagine.

It.

It picks up everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't know. And there's child labor laws, too, going on here. Like, this is an infant.

The infant's not getting paid for it.

Though, I guess if it's your own kid, you're allowed.

And it's your own kid.

You can't steal someone else's baby and put them in one of these baby moms. Okay. Okay, that's a mistake. You should stop doing that.

I'm glad you clarified it.

Have your own baby. Kelsey. The Fundy Undies steak.

It's real.

Is one shared trunk opening. That's the giveaway. The product is real.

Yeah.

They are available right now on Amazon. You can get your own Fundy Undies. First of all. Like, it's disgusting.

It is disgusting. How do you even, like, stand. I don't get it.

I don't know. Like, in the picture, these people stand side by side. No, no. You face each other.

Yeah.

Oh, that's great. Oh, bonus genitalia rubbed against each other.

That's. When you said one trunk opening, I was like, what, do you both put it in the same.

No. So it's the trunk. The trunk is the waistline of a person. Like, so that's what. I mean. There's a singular trunk, but then your. Your groinage is jammed together. Like, it's just like. Like, I just made the. That's what genitalia looks like. I just made the smashed. Like, who wants that?

Yeah.

And then, like, maybe it's funny for about 30 seconds.

Exactly. It's so weird.

Yeah. Now you're facing the person, like, oh, I don't get it. Yeah, but the bar bubble is a fake product and in fact, it was a concept that someone's playing around with but never made it into product state. So it was in the invention stage, but shockingly, no. Want to buy a bar bubble?

Yeah, because that's the thing. Who would actually use it in a bar? Like, you draw so much attention that it's not really.

Can you imagine walking into the bar? You're like, you come walking like, oh, excuse me, sorry. You know, you come bumping in with this massive bubble.

Drunk people would be hitting your bubble just to be.

I would pour beer in the air hole. The guy's choking to death.

That was a totally unnecessary sound effect, Kelsey.

No one can see. YouTubers can see us, but the other people can't see us. You have to do sound effects.

Thank you, brother.

Thank you. You know, Jeremy's gonna be taking over the soundboard and stuff. We're months away from that, and he's gonna be controlling.

He's gonna air horn you every chance.

I love it. All right, Kels, guests, the hell out of here.

Thank you guys for listening. And if you do have a question, feel free to email ask mikemichalitz.com Any question about any aspect of business, business, or anything in his books, and we'll create a little video and put it on YouTube.

Yeah, we're here to answer it for you. And hey, my brand new book is out there. It's called Fix this Next. The biggest challenge facing entrepreneurs is knowing what the biggest challenge is. We're in this day to day survival. It's hard to figure out what the urgent stuff is and what's the impactful thing. And usually they're not the same. Well, this book, Fix this Next will help you find the impactful thing that will grow the business the way you want to. So go to Amazon right now and pick up up a copy. All right, that's it. Let's get out of here, guys.