Advice for People in the Early Stages of their Treasury Career with Francois Masquelier

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Having a really enjoyable time to a number of treasurers throughout the world about how they build their careers, where they are now and where they see themselves and the treasury profession going. Next this week's show, I'm really pleased to be joined by Francois Mascalier, the group treasurer of RTL Group or our senior Vice president. So Francois has been with RTL since 1997. Prior to that he started his career within banking. One of the other things that we'll hear about on our call with Francois is he has a number of other interests. So he's the chairman of the Luxembourg Treasurers Association, Atel. He is the chairman of the eact. He's a member of many other things as well. So it's wonder he gets to his day job as well. But I know he does that very well at RCL. They're very happy since he's been there since 97. Well, really, that's enough about me. I know there's so much we've got to get through with Francois I'd like to pass over to you. Francois, welcome to the show. What we want to do is just maybe talk about how you started within treasury, where you've developed your treasury background and look at the future. So enough about talking to me over to you.

Okay, thanks Mike. Now, just to say that I came to Treasury a bit by accident because my initial background was a lawyer, even a tax lawyer. So I'm doctor in law. I then some studies of economics in the main one before finishing my study at the university. And my first job was, as you mentioned, in banking. I worked in the leading room and then in corporate banking. And by chance one day I've been offered to join a large multinational company, an Italian French company, Radio Bank Ganset in Brussels in their coordination center. And I discovered the corporate treasury and then Marquez started in treasury, then I came back to banks afterwards to ABN Amro for four years and then back again to corporate Treasury. And I think that it's my last comeback to the corporate treasury and I'm pleased to be still there in treasury at the atm.

And when you were ABN Ambro, you sort of got introduced to treasury as you say. How did that come about or what was that sort of. What was the background to that?

Yeah, but I wanted to change for several reasons. I was offered a job at abnmro and it was more corporate banking. So I was serving the customer and large customer and corporate customers with the bank services. I think it was quite interesting because there are a lot of interconnection between corporate banking and corporate treasury because they are the supplier, we are the buyers. So it was quite interesting to have a large variety of customers. Then after a while I've been transferred to Luxembourg in the network of the bank because, you know, it's a large bank. And then I got this opportunity to come to rtl. I was not convinced. But after a while I really found the job quite exciting with a growing and interesting business.

And when you joined RTL, that was in 97, what was it like then when you first started there?

It was a small company. It was called Selteufaque, a company Luxembourg Television. It was really a smaller company with 6,700 million turnover. Now we are quasi at 7 billion turnover. So I also, let's say follow the company in its growth and development. So with the listing and in London, in Frankfurt, so with a lot of operation, financial operations was quite exciting to accompany the company in its growth. But it was a different company. And then it has been renamed. After the acquisition of Pearson TV and merger with Audio Media we decided to change the name and to take the most, let's say, a known name in our group of TV channels, that is hotel.

And with that, how has your role changed? Because you said it was small at the beginning. How many were in the team then?

When I started I was alone and I got a nice. And then we were three for a while, four for a couple of years. And then we really got more decent side when the company started growing after the merger, after the listing in London, we got the rating, we got a lot of financing. So we moved to the IFRS in 2000. And then the team slightly grow to be now a team of 7% plus my pa. So with eight person, what is quite small or reasonable for a company with such highly centralized treasury and with such diversified activity in treasury corporate finance.

So Francois, you've taken the team from just yourself, standalone, within the office there to a team of seven people. Have you achieved that and what have you? How's that growth developed, as it were?

Yeah, but we rapidly realized that it was necessary to grow the team to get better skills, to make sure that we can deliver. Because the company was growing quite fast. So one of the challenges in Luxembourg was to attract this kind of talent. Because you know that Luxembourg is not maybe the best or well known place one you can attract talent. It's easy to retain the talent, but the attraction of Luxembourg was quite difficult one. So that was one of my challenges 15 years, 20 years ago. It was also quite difficult because treasury was not as known as today. The treasury center in Luxembourg was not as developed as today. And so I guess it's much easier this day to find the right skills when you recruit in Luxembourg. But it was quite, let's say, yeah, a big challenge to find the good skills and the right person to fit and to come to supply the team over time and forming and educating also a lot of young people. Because I think that one of the key of the success in a team is also to rely on well educated with experienced people and also to train and to educate yourself young talent. Because treasury is not a job you learn and you get from university. So something that you learn on the field by doing and by practicing. So it's also good to educate your own or part of the team, especially to get young talent and to push them.

And how did you attract that talent? What made you any different to any other Luxembourg employer?

I'll try to convince them that we can offer a good job. I'm really the kind of person who tried to give a lot of autonomy and so to delegate a lot of things. So if these talents, they usually come as an intern are satisfying, so I give them more and more and more and so they could develop. And usually our trainees are quite pleased by the internship period they spend with us and then we get a certain reputation because they come back to their schools. I mainly work with two or three schools in France. I try to develop one with a German school. And it's good because there is a sort of reputation, a good echoes. And so we have new interns coming the year after and so it's quite easy to attract them. But I'll try to convince them that I could give them a good job in a good international environment and abroad. Because for a French good to have a trainee of six months outside the country, it's a sort of tradition in France, I don't know in some other countries, but in France they need to have a, a six month intern after the study. So it's a good opportunity to test and to train them. So it's a combination of people you train you decade young people for the front day to day activities and also experienced people you can attract from other companies. And for of course there are people like you to detect a good talent with stronger experience.

And when you're looking at those, when you're looking at those resumes coming through from, you know, not necessarily the interns, but perhaps a little Bit more experience. What are you looking for in there? You know, when I've spoken to some of the other guests with Sarah Jane from GlaxoSmithKline, she was very much into qualifications, that was a big thing. And communication skills were the two things that stood out to her. But obviously you're recruiting in Luxembourg, a more international environment, as it were. What are you trying to pick out of those? You know, perhaps when people are looking in the future rtl, trying to work out what it is you're looking for.

Of course we were looking for people having some qualification certification but, you know, on the continent it's less important to get the sort of ACT certification. Some come with the ACT certification. I have. One of my teammates asked me to start the first ACT qualification, but it's not something that I'm really targeting. If it comes, great. I'm more looking for the experience if they're already worked in banking or in corporate treasury, I try to see if there is a fit and more and more. And it's one of the challenges of these days, especially with the evolution with the regulations, with the new technology, we are looking for different skills. So I really, I try to insist on the soft skills because it's quite important in my view to have strong soft skills. But also in the art skills, I try to find people having some IT background. So the last lady I recruited in my team, she's from Singapore and, and she worked for Sungard for a couple of years, so she has a really good expertise in IT system, tms and she could translate our, let's say, technical needs into system. And it's quite good to have this kind of, let's say, diversified talent. But I'm not looking for special qualification. If it comes, great. I try to find people that could fit within the team. Another one, he came to my team because he had a good experience in bank connectivity, also highly technical with swift, the connection to communicate with banks. And again, these soft skills are quite important because we negotiate on a daily basis with these kind of suppliers from everywhere. So qualification is good. But I'm not only recruiting a Treasury qualified person these days, you need to have a much larger scope of talent. On top of that, I have to specify that I'm corporate treasurer and I'm head of the Corporate treasury at Tertel, but I have also a second role. I'm also CRO of the group because we don't have the size to get the two separate functions. I'm covering also the erm, Enterprises management part and I need also Some talent having this kind of expertise in managing risk, not only the financial risk and reporting the risk. So it's a combination. And again, soft skills are extremely important these days.

So Francois, we've obviously talked a lot about your role and over the past and how you've got to where you are now. Where do you see the future for treasury and treasurers per se and where do you see things going from here?

I think that for sure we faced over the last 10 years a great evolution of the function. And it's not the end of this evolution of this transformation. Since the global panel crisis and all the consequences. With new accounting rules like IAS 39, IFRS 9 and the others, our life is slightly different. So more reporting, more regulation, more compliance, stricter accounting rules. So if you compare what we did in the past and what we are doing and we can do these days, it's much different. So I think that the transformation of the treasury function is not yet finalized. The main evolution we can expect these days is the evolution coming from technology. We talk a lot about robots, algorithm, about automation of some processes. I said we still have a journey on the automation process. But I have to admit that in my view this automation and robotization of the function, it's not as easy as it seems. We need to get first a better standardization. If you just take the example of the kyc. KYC seems to me something that is really on top of the list of, let's say admin burden red tape for all corporate treasurers. And it's something that we cannot harmonize. It's impossible to get at this stage a solution because banks are not able to harmonize and standardize the processes. So I think that first we need standardization and. And then in the future it would be better to go a step further. But if you think about the bank connectivity, the same we have some ISO 20022. But again it's not because you have an ISO that everything has been standardized and it is as easy as it seems. But we can expect that the function will evolve, will automate some processes, we can outsource some processes, we can certainly get some robots to do part of our work or to check what we are doing and to free up some time that we can dedicate to more added value tasks and to get a more strategic role what we have faced over the last 10 years. So I think that it's the evolution I can see for the corporate trust be closer to the CFO to be more strategic, to be more involved in added value tasks, more in analysis and to get to the next level and so to be able to take some strategic decision rather than executing and reporting.

When you say added value, what do you mean by that? Is that supply chain, is that commodities? Or in the other add ons to treasury or treasury itself?

It could be on different things, but of course all the activities we are covering, we can bring some value. It could be to work more on the capital structure, to optimize the capital structure and certainly to reduce the need in working capital. Because you know that these days quite important to make sure that you are not oversizing your credit facilities, your equity, find the right balance to optimize the work of the company. It could be on hedging. You know that these days with a strong dollar and a huge differential of interest, if you are selling dollars, I can tell you that if you sell long term, you are penalized by such a big differential. So in terms of hedging strategies, a lot of companies are reviewing their processes and there of course the corporate treasures could bring a lot of value. Same with commodity hedging. A lot of volatility on the market. So we need to face a. So it's also maybe a consequence of the crisis, but the geopolitical aspect is something that we need to consider. The volatility of the market is quite important. And these days we have to focus on not new risk, but risk that we were not necessarily addressing in that precise detail in the past. The same with counterparty risk. We know these days that we face some risk with banks and the counterparty risk, it's not something that is pure theory. It can happen that a bank could be in default. So I think that we can bring value by implementing also new regulation. If you think about the transfer pricing beps, it's a good example where the corporate treasurers could for the transfer pricing operation related to finance or aging could bring value by optimizing the tax situation of the company. So we have many, many areas where we can bring value. But for that you need to free up time and to make sure that you are not completely glued with the day to day oper manual processes. And so automation, it's a sort of preliminary stage you can reach and when you are there you can get more time for more analysis and come with a strategic decision. But also the pre requirement is also to get the report and the dashboarding to make sure that you take the right decision. So we were a bit, let's say, stuck with this compliance effort we made over the last year. EMEA, MiFID, 2 KYCs, etc. Again, a lot of these regulations were fully justified a bit too tough for corporate traders, but justified as the quantity of reports and compliance have let's say change or modify slightly our job. And so we'd like to get rid of this reporting compliance thing to work more on things where we can really bring value to the company and save the money of the company or generate some value if we can.

And you yourself, you've got obviously a very challenging role at RTL and number of members of the team and everything else but you're heavily involved and you, you run the Attil association. We've come along and you know, helped out a couple of times and. And then also you do the eact. Why are those important as well to your data? Well, but number one, how do you balance them out and number two, why.

Auto balance? A good question. So first I think that it's to going important to be enthusiastic about what you are doing and I have to say that I love Treasury I really appreciate because it's a highly technical job and so it's also one of my patients. So it's something that I do because I like it and so I want to discover this because a new thing to be ahead of things to be a leading edge sometimes to be pioneer. For example, I've been pilot for a couple of projects at Swift so I'll try to be informed of the things so it's part of my curiosity I like to be informed that is a question of organization to make sure that you are able to find the time to do that. I do a lot of things for Atel for my article I publish that I published more than 250 articles so far over the last 20 years. And so the idea is also to work outside the working hours. I'm quite lucky because I have management that I've always supported the managers, the CFOs because not only one, they've always supported my job and my role at the Treasury Association. So it's great because it's also brought to me another perspective on Treasury. It was also a source of motivation the fact that I as explained got the new role as a CRO Chief Risk Officer besides the role of head of treasury and Corporate finance. And the association gave me three things that make my job quite interesting and attractive and maybe after a while you can be in situations where we are a bit, let's say not demotivated but less motivated than you were in the past because you are doing things for four years in my role I'm pleased because the company has evolved. What we did evolved and we were quite leading in terms of new project. We are pioneering a lot of things and adding some different tasks. Plus the association and I come back in a minute on association was quite exciting. Association. I'm involved at the early stage in Atel because we celebrate it in September, our 24th anniversary at Atel. So it's, I would say, quite a rather old association in Europe. So I was there from the very beginning, first as banker and now as a full member and corporate treasures. But I think it's great to have this kind of association. I do believe that networking is quite important. We need to work on our personal branding and you know that much more than anyone else. That is quite important. And for me the association was a way to create a network to be closer to my peers, to share some ideas with them. And so we've tried to create this kind of atmosphere at the EACT level. It's another story. It's also something that we build something like 14, 15 years ago with a few associations. We were six at the beginning, Continental Europe. It was called Euro association and then it has been renamed European association to. To welcome new members. So we have 23 associations, 21 countries. I think it's great because it's a sort of European project and being a pro eu, I've always tried to create and more than that, just Europe. I've tried to create this association. I think it was quite important and useful for us to be a strong and solid body. And one of the reason was after the financial crisis and there we demonstrated our strength and try to influence the decision that are taken in Brussels, consequences of the G20 or OCD plan or whatever. But I think it was quite exciting to have a different role at the association level. Still talking about treasury, working on treasury issues. But leaving an association and leading an association like that was also a challenge because it's a way to also build Europe at our level. It was really an exciting adventure and I'm still excited so far. So I have to confess that I'm the most, not the oldest, but the most ancient member of ESCP at this stage. And I'm still pleased and motivated and so I'll try to combine the three of them. And at the end of the day, when you think about it, my boss understood that from the very beginning that it's great because being so involved in the association, I'm also quite leading in the discussion for lobbying the discussion with the supervisors or regulators, with esb. I Was also member with some corporates like Mike Kirkland in a group at esb. So you can also try to influence and be part and be actor rather than just to get the decision made by some other. It's a different role, but really exciting.

With yourself. And you've got those roles, you got the RT up, so you're balancing all of those. But where do you see it next for you? Because obviously your treasurer that's grown your career to this stage, you've got this really great team behind you and everything else. But what do you want next? What is there still for you to achieve before? You've done a lot of stuff in Treasury. I'm not saying you're retiring yet, but you've achieved a heck of a lot. What next? What would be the pinnacle for you or what else do you need to do?

Big question I cannot answer if I will be there for another couple of years or until the end of my career as corporate treasurer. We'll see. But it's a great company, It's a highly profitable and nice company. And I have a lot of respect for my company. It's quite important. And so far it's great because we have a lot of new projects. And so they give me a lot of freedom to design the project I would like to do. I'm not just executing or just a sort of European hub of a multinational company. We can do things, we are doer, we have certain freedom. So it's quite interesting. And I'm not sure that in a bigger company with, let's say, a role where we are just executing the decision taken by headquarters in the US or in Asia, it will be as exciting. So it's great to be really at the Group treasury center and to be able to take some decision. And I have this, let's say, luxury where my boss listen to the proposal and very often support our proposal for projects. And recently I've been involved in the pension fund restructuring and the externalization of our pension fund. So it's really exciting project and I'm pleased to be involved in that. So until I will get some interesting project, exciting objective to do in my job, I will stay and I will be still motivated as ever for the Association. We'll see. I'll try to prepare my succession and also to create. And it's also a big challenge because we talk about transformation of company and our roles, but we should not forget that the association also are also facing a transformation with a new generation, the one and the millennium. And so we need also to face this kind of challenge and to make sure that we will remain a real network, physical network, where people meet each other, discuss and share some ideas, rather than to be just a social or virtual network. So it's quite important for us association. So I have also many projects on my list at the associations, because not only one, it's also the World association icta, the three associations I'm working for. And I think it's exciting. I cannot answer the question, but the way and the date will not be as exciting as it is today. Maybe I will try to pass and ask them to take over, but I don't know, we'll see. Something that I do not consider at this stage yet. And again, if a good job, a good offer comes, I'm always ready to take a new challenge. We will see. But it should be an exciting challenge challenge. And I have to confess that I really appreciate first company I'm working for and also the environment here in Luxembourg. It's a great country and we have a lot of opportunities and the treasury function is moving quite well in the right direction. So we have more and more interesting jobs created here. And so it's good to see our treasury community growing over years.

And you mentioned there about succession or people coming into the profession. There were one passing piece of advice. If someone's the or early stage of their career or they're making that move, what would you say that they should be doing? When I spoke to Sarah Jane from gsk, she was very much about qualifications and you've obviously given some of the other bits, but what would you say? Someone was walking in because you've obviously coached people at different levels, what have they got to think about? Is it joining associations or is it all the other stuff? Or what would you say?

First thing, let's say plead in favor of my own chapel. I would say that I will admit advise people to be member of the National treasury association, actf, ETA or whatever in which country you are. So it would be my first advice. So work on your network, order on your personal branding and try to remain, let's say, updated to remain employable. That's the best piece of advice I could give. My wife thought that I was mad because earlier this year I passed the certification for the ISO31000 risk management certification. But I still have, let's say, the enthusiasm to learn and to discover new things. So I completely agree with Sarah. I think qualification is good. Keep being, let's say, curious and try to keep learning. A lot of corporate traders are not reading, are not attending conferences are not member associations. So how could you claim to be a good treasurer if you're not looking what is going on on around knowing that we have a lot of changes. I think it's quite interesting and also nice to share with peers and to have this kind of, let's say exchange. And it's extremely valuable and it's a way to remain updated and employable. That's one of the advice I would give. Do not think that things are down in there and so you can just relax on you lower. So I think that you need to keep learning because our profession will keep evolving and we have a lot of new things. But it's also what makes treasury more exciting than accounting or consolidation. In my view it's more new things, new technology. And technology is really creating, it's an enabler for a lot of things. So I think that that would be my piece of advice. Be curious, curious and try keep learning and also be involved in your association. Talk to your peers and try to share with them expertise. It will give you also that work that could be useful that they would like to change your job or because of merger, because it's also a success in a career. So don't forget that everything it's mainly depending on your capacity and your expertise and your talent. But it's also part of luck. And sometimes you have companies with mergers and so you know that one plus one doesn't mean two in case of merger. So you can be leading a trade department and then suddenly be number two, number three in the larger organization. So be ready for changes. And for that you need to remain employable at any moment in time and just prove that you are ready to onboard new challenges. So because unfortunately you have also sometimes the accident in life that make your life a bit complicated. And so it's important to keep that in mind.

Be curious, but remain prepared as you as many treasurers always are.

And then maybe the last point, don't forget what I've mentioned already, the soft skills. I keep thinking that corporate treasurers are always impression that it's a technical job. And so you need hard skills and it's right and more and more hard skills. But you also need some soft skills to be more convincing to talk to senior level to talk to audit committees, to talk to rating agencies. So you have more and more opportunities to be exposed to the external world. And for that you need to develop your soft skills. And you have many soft skills you can develop. So will be also maybe a piece of advice for the young generation. Do not focus only on the outkills. Try to be really fully prepared.

Amazing. Great advice. Thank you. From well, a Treasury expert of many, many years. So it's fantastic to have caught up with you and anything else to sign off with or. I think that's really good advice for any of our listeners. Really.

Yeah, no, I think that it's the kind of thing I would recommend and I know that we really interesting and very competent organization some countries more developed than some others. But again we try to reinforce our community. It's quite important, especially these days where the decisions are taken at a supranational level. It's quite important to be involved, to be part of the game just to avoid a situation where you are in front of the FATA company and so they try to impose something that you, you can have maybe try to influence. So I think it's also important to be actor of our life rather than to be just in a passive role. And a lot of corporate treasures in my view are just waiting and seeing what is happening. So it could be also quite interesting to be vocal and to express view and it's something that I found really exciting to be part of the decision process and to be involved in all these things. Emil is a good example. More recently BEPS IFRS 9 so it's great because it's exciting and it's good because it's a way also to be involved in the things and to try to early onboard them and to be prepared on time or to be pioneer and sometimes to dare to test things because it's always the same. We were pilots for a lot of project with SWIFT and some of my teammates ask for but what are we piloting? Very useful. Could we not simply wait and it will be ready? We will onboard the solution but I think that it's unfair. We should also be part of the solution and also try to design solution as we wanted and so it's more effort but at the end it could be more valuable and better for us. That's my advice. But the good news, I think that the profession will keep evolving over the next year and I think that this type of excitement and changes and evolution or transformation is not yet over and it will be interesting and challenging years ahead of us.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, you know, I look forward to helping you in your association and being part of it and thank you for your time for the podcast.

Yeah, thanks for you Mike. I know that you support the treasury profession and I really appreciate that. I think it's quite important because it's a really, really a community. And it's quite important for us to try to help and to serve our members the best to make sure that we will have good corporate treasures, good talent. And that's one of the challenges to help the young generation to be the treasury talent of tomorrow.

Yeah. That's hopefully what we can keep on giving advice through the podcast as well. So thank you for your time.

Thank you. You, Mike.