AI, Digital Currencies and the Evolution of Treasury with Britta Döttger

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Britta Detke, the head of treasury at Roche. Roche is a global pioneer in pharmaceuticals diagnostics focused on advancing science to improve people's lives. Yep. I'm reading that directly from the website. Yeah. Because as I said earlier, I'm going to get Britta to explain a little bit more about Roche. I mean, it's an amazing company, 1896, preventing, diagnosing, treating diseases on a global scale, sustainable contribution, society, everything else. But Britta can explain that all to us. We're going to go back to her early days, walk through her career like many of my guests from Europe, which is quite different. I've said this a few times recently speaking at a conference in the US that noticed a lot of my European guests start in banking and then make the transition across to finance and Treasury. You did a similar move. Britta, take us back to how you first got started in finance and then you eventually discovered the wonderful world that it's Treasury. Over to you.

Hi Mike, my pleasure being here and thank you so much for the invitation and yes, you made me with your ask to join your show, really to think and wonder how it all started. And I have to admit it's already 30 years ago so I'm pretty, pretty happy to share my story.

So you did your finance reels thinking finance was your career. Was that something you always knew or what happened?

No, I think it was totally different with me. So as I approached the end of my school years, I faced really a decision whether to dive straight into career or, or higher education, say let's go to university. And I would say, you know, the job market then was very uncertain and this is why I was not brave enough to really go to studies directly. So I decided to follow really, you know, my inner voice if you want so. And I thought I need to do an apprenticeship first. So if a company would get to know me, most likely after doing my studies, they will take me back. Right. So, and then I had the privilege to had a great teacher at school. He developed my interest, say in economics, economy and business administration. And this is why I applied indeed for an apprenticeship with Deutsche Bank. Being a banker, it exposed me to a totally new world and I thought it was very interesting and I was curious, you know, about the complexity of banking and the opportunities offered. Yeah. And then I wanted to stay there, but still I wanted to do my studies and you know, have a higher education. And this is how I landed at Frankfurt School. And then to cut it short, after a few years at Deutsche, a customer approached me and asked me whether I want to change the side of the table. And I said, yeah, why not? I have no intention to stay, you know, at the bank for my entire life by the way, this is what my dad did. And I thought, no, I'm open, I'm curious to figure out something new. And voila. Since then, you know, I dived into the corporate world and I really like it and I think I found my passion.

And when before you made that move across to corporate side and you maybe. I know this is a while ago and thinking back, but we'll have listeners that are all ages, you know, so you know, early stages of their treasury careers, later stages. But if you're thinking back to that, what did banking and that apprenticeship, if you like at Deutsche give you that helped you and where were the gaps?

Let me start maybe with the gaps. So when, when I was finishing school, I always wanted to have my independence, you know, I didn't want my parents to pay for my financial well being and making up my life. So I thought to being prepared for that. I need to learn more about money and economics. So I would say, you know, understanding the value and also the purpose of money was always a driving factor in my career and was going to a bank. Voila. Yeah, I mean you are thinking about and looking at money funds flow and how companies are doing and there was fueling economies and how this is all working out. Also on a global level, this was really, you know, eye opening for me when I worked at the bank. So I like the perspective looking into corporates. You know, I was tasked with analyzing the balance sheet and cash flows and come up with a credit rating that would then also determine how much money the bank would lend to the customer. And then I also had the opportunity to join the wealth management department and there I could see how high rich individuals would think about whom they would lend money to. So it was a super nice segue, you know, into this entire world of money, capital markets and how the world is working together to shape for a better future of societies as well.

So talk us through then that move, you said it was a customer, which customer was it? What, what was your move? Obviously I know, but you know, for the Listeners out there like, who did you make the move to? What did you do?

Well, I joined the operating company of Frankfurt Airport. And that was really funny because my dad told me I'm super MA and crazy. However, I'm leaving, you know, a super solid, well known and high reputational employer like Deutsche bank, right? And I thought, hey dad, you are missing out something here. Because Frankfurt Airport at that moment when I joined was still state owned basically. So it was a super safe employer. It turned out. I have to say, you know, it was an excellent move. Why so? Because in this corporate environment, although I was very junior, I had lots of freedom to really contribute and shape what we are doing. So within the bank you have a lot of restrictions, you have a very strong auditing trail and you know, people are really looking over your shoulder what you're doing and whether you're sticking to checklists and guideline and what have you. And when you look at the audit function at a corporate, they work very much more entrepreneurial and there's much more room and freedom to act. And this is what I really enjoyed. You know, I was coming as a junior and was hired for international Project Finance. And that was interesting to me because at Deutsche I never joined that department. So I had no specific bankers knowledge. But joining Frankfurt Airport, I was the only one who had knowledge. So I was the expert automatically. You know, all my bosses were counting so much and me, and I was equipped with their trust and their confidence. So I was able to dig into it, learn a lot and was playing the treasury role when it comes to international Project Finance. So that was absolutely exciting. And was also coming with traveling, seeing other continents, other countries. So that was super exciting.

When you joined, it was a state owned group and then you took it public. I mean that's, you know, some treasurers, you know, they call me, I want to do an ipo. What I take it public. And so you, this was your first job, you know, this was like a lovely Christmas present.

That's a nice expression. So when I was working at Deutsche bank, it was a combined role still then with relationship management and credit officer. So that's totally different these days. And when I was writing my last credit application and report on Frankfurt Airport, I had already this piece of the IPO in because, you know, obviously from a banker side we were hungry to engage there and get all the nice fees from taking that company to an internal public offering. And when I joined Frankfurt Airport, you know, I was hired for something totally different. But what I did is in the evenings I was sneaking through the offices. I had the chance to talk to that person who was driving that project and I asked a lot of questions. And I remember one evening, he was looking at me and saying, well brother, you will figure it out. So you are going to take the task over. You are right now the new one who's taking, you know, the lead for the IPO project office.

Can you believe was it difficult for you? Because then what I mean by this is you made the move across, but you knew, as you said you were writing the. You'd signed off the application. So you knew that what was on the other side of the table. You know, sometimes you're trying to guess what the other what the bank wants and everything else. Not only did you know what they wanted, but you actually knew exactly what they wanted. And you were then suddenly, oh, hang on, now she's on the client side, she knows exactly. How did you balance that, if you like?

Well, I had my boss, boss doing that for me because he took me out of the beauty contest for the banks. He was saying, well, Britta, you are still much too close. And Deutsche bank, at the end of the day, they did not win that mandate either.

Oh wow. Okay. So they didn't. What, what was it like then taking it public that early in your career?

It was fantastic. You know, this was this once in a lifetimes opportunities because all of a sudden you need to engage with almost all department and Frankfurt Airport and really try to help people to understand what's going on and what kind of new expectations and tasks and activities are coming along with that. So I give you an example. That company has never done a company presentation across all functions and business units. Can you believe, you know, a kind of typical investor relations presentation that every stock existed, company just take it, you know, out of shelf, has never been in any existence. So that was one element. You know, how can you help and support everyone to really bring their story into a nice format that you can share with equity researchers and also investors and then also having the numbers that would underline and support that story. The next element that was coming with this IPO project is for the first time, you know, we were working on financials according to ifrs. So before Frankfurt Airport has only reported in local gaap. And on top of that we had this Deutsche Mark Euro transition. So it was also clear if we would write the offering memorandum for the ipo, it needs to be in euros. And last on top of it all, it was the first time where the company would publish group financials. So in the past, the MOTHER company was so predominant and so dominating all the financial numbers within the Frankfurt AIRPORT Group that they would only publish on the MOTHER company. But for this ipo, for the first time, we also need to work on group financials collectively.

And you did, did that role talk us then through the next role? Because I think that's very interesting. All of your roles are interesting, but what happened? You know, you were there for four and a half years. What was next?

Yeah, next was a dinner at a banking event and I was talking to a very nice, gentle older gentleman. He was sitting at dinner next to me and we had a very, very nice conversation. It turned out he was working for company stock listed as well in Germany. And yeah, he was sharing with me his journey basically and the challenges. That was a company that was really in financial trouble as well, only with 9% equity ratio and the biggest shareholder was a hedge fund. So it was a very nice evening. And then out of the blue, the next day I got a call from that gentleman saying, hey Britta, I'm about to retire, so are you interested in taking over my role and be my successor?

You must have been very impressive at that dinner. That's amazing. So, yeah, being headhunted from dinner. So what happened next?

Next I remember that I had a conversation with my designated cfo and I remember it was a lunch. I'm pretty sure we also had a proper interview in the office. But then we went to lunch and I think it was not only the two of us, there was somebody sitting and coming with us over lunch. But I. Can you believe I don't remember who that person was? Damn it.

Well, it doesn't matter. You got the job.

Yes, because I remember vividly the moment at lunch where it clicked between my next boss and myself. And this was how I was talking about the interest rate environment at that time. So I really saw how his eyes was opening and he really got excited about my application. I really saw in his eyes he would see me as his next treasurer.

Tell us about the company because we've touched on it, but you know, who are the company, what do they do and things.

SJL Group has changed tremendously since I left. At that time it was a materials specialist and still today heavily engaged with the steel industry, aluminum industry, but also starting to embark on a journey in lightweight materials with carbon fiber fibers. So it's really an engineering and I have also to say from a corporate environment, the population of this company was 90% roughly male. So for sure, you know, when you think in today's conversation in terms about, you know, gender parity and what have you, that company at that time was far away. Just because you know of the company's purpose. It was pretty much male dominated.

The company itself in terms of treasury you joined, the treasurer was retiring. What was the shape of treasury at the time?

Allow me to share a bit of background to that company. That company was a spin off of the former Hearst company. So one of the biggest and I think also over time very successful German large companies. And this is why the treasury function was split up in two locations. And it was also still pretty early states of that treasury organization because it used to lean in and was supported, hosted by the Hust Treasury. Of course, being a stock listed company, you need to build up a full fledged treasury function on your own. So when I was taking it over, it was a pretty small team. I remember we did not have a credit management function. For instance, there were colleagues really super, you know, dedicated, passionate and I also have to say they have been going through a lot because before I joined they had this rescue financing. So they all were very much relieved that the company was still in existence and there was at least a financial foundation to really go into smooth waters again and to accelerate the growth, the expansion and to bring it back to a successful path.

You did that. You were there for about a number of years. Talk us through your journey and then as we move on and join Roche.

Every year at that role, although it was 11 years as a group treasurer at that company was super different. So in the beginning it was our task to make everybody aware in that company what that rescue financing was bringing at restrictions and limitations to what the business can do. So yes, there was enough money to survive. However, they were handcuffed if you want. So the capex program, the size, how you can also do M and A, that was all limited by either the SIN loan and the covenants given by the banks or the indenture of the High Yield bond. The High Yield bond had a triple C plus rating. So you can imagine where on the rating spectrum we were operating. So the treasury function really needed to align with the business and help them to understand that they no longer have the freedom to do what they think is to do the right thing. Because this always needed to be looked at from the entirety of the company. I can share with you a very impressive story. At least it was for me a very challenging one. So when I joined I had an intercompany loan on my table that one of the CEC members asked to issue and provide an affiliate money with. And I was obviously that intercompany loan has already been approved at the CEC in their meeting. So all my bosses have already agreed that this intercompany loan will be granted. And then I was checking that with the regulations and restrictions of the high Yield Bond and guess what? We couldn't do it. So one of my first tasks, I would think within the first three or four months was to tell my entire executive committee that this loan, although they have approved it, is not going to happen.

And what happened next?

Well, they all accepted that. And I think, you know, especially, you know, my boss was very thankful for helping us to stay compliant with all our financing restrictions because if you are not complying with those financing restrictions, you automatically run into a default and then everything happens again and you need to look for financing again. So I think this, this was a wake up call for everyone and was helping everyone to understand that there needs to be an alignment between treasury and we were very happy to engage there and help the business. Maybe I should also mention that a few years later with improving business numbers and development, we did another complete refinancing to put the company on different feet again and that was successful. And then they also, you know, got much more freedom.

Yeah, you would work through that period. Then what came next?

Yeah, next was I would think, you know, after 11 years I thought I'm a finance professional, I love numbers. Numbers talk to me, I talk to numbers. And I thought I was looking right now for bringing in my expertise, my passion into a company with a different purpose. That was a very tough time for me. Close friend of mine died of cancer and also my, my personal assistants, she got diagnosed with cancer. And so I thought working for a company, helping really the objectives to help patients, that was absolutely something I desired and wished for. And I had the opportunity then to interview with Roche and tell us about that. Roche is a global pioneer in pharmaceuticals and diagnostics. So we are very much focused on advancing science to really improve people's life. As you already pointed out, you know this company has around for over 125 years. We are the first in healthcare to really focus on personalized healthcare. But you know, we are also really engaged in the diagnostic space. We were the first to invest early and for long term and pioneering science like antibodies. And also know we are deeply engaged right now in the artificial intelligence opportunities, how this can be helpful to develop therapeutics and medicines for patients. And we are spending a lot also in R and D. I think we are One of the biggest spenders there. So you see, this is exactly where I wanted to be. Within the treasury organization, we are responsible to support that. We recently announced an acquisition and now we are working obviously to make this happen and prepare for closing. So it's very exciting right now to have different conversations. When you talk to business colleagues, it's really about the well being, it's about patients and it's how we can really contribute to societies.

And when you first joined, were you straight into Treasury?

No, I was not. And I have to say that was very excellent because I got a role where I had exposure to very different parts of the organization. So I think if you are joining a company of such a size from outside mid career, it's not easy to build connections and network and what have you. And that role, being the finance business partner to group functions, I was automatically having the opportunity to really build relationships and connect across the entire group. So I was not solely operating in one function or in one business unit. I had the opportunity to really reach out across all businesses and all functions and that was very, very helpful. And I'm, I have to say I'm thankful for my boss that he gave me the opportunity to connect and understand Roche first because company cultures, you know, from Deutsche to Frankfurt, SGL and now Roche are very different. And you really need to adapt to the style and also the language. And I feel I'm still working progress so I, I still, every day I need to learn, I need to adapt. It's a continuing journey. So you, you are never, you know.

Done you recommending there that people don't go straight in, if, if possible straight into a Treasury role. And you build that breadth, you built that breadth of experience over different functions and controlling. How did you then come back to treasury or what happened next?

I would slightly disagree to that statement because I think this was really a special situation because I had my deep, deep treasury background already. So at that moment it was more. And because also, you know, this company is very much a network company. So I think in that specific moment it was much better to have an in between step. Yeah, I'm not saying that this is something I would advise everybody to follow. I think it's really tailor made to specific situations, I have to say.

You started, you built your network and then you moved into this treasury and financing role. You're the head of treasury at Rush. Say a cheeky question. It's an easy job, you know. And I don't mean it's easy. You know, you put your feet up and everything else but people want to come to you. You're this amazing, you know, rated company, everyone likes it. You've been in some companies where they it's been more challenging with financing and things. What's it like for you being in that kind of role? Surely everyone's coming to you. You know I talked to Wolfgang at Porsche, everyone knows them and everyone comes to and you know he deals with different challenges than when he's in been in different companies and things. What's it like for you?

You make me laugh right now and I'm getting, I'm blushing right now I guess as well. So let me start by how that happened. So in that other role it was clear for me from the beginning sooner or later I will miss the engagement with externals. I need food for inspiration and thought, I need speed and I need really to be connected to the external ecosystem, what is changing there, etc. Etc. So for me it was at least clear that sooner or later I would not any longer be on a kind of business partner controlling role where I have only engagement internally. So is it easy to be the treasurer of Roche? I would say first of all it's an honor, it's fantastic. Is it every day easy? No, I don't think so. At least not for me. So maybe for someone else it would be easy every day. I think when I was at sgl, think about it, it was a non investment grade company with a cyclical business. When you then look at a very, very large SMI or you know, whatever index you are referring to, big large company with this rating you would think oh it's so easy. They can just tap the markets anytime, no problem. You wish. You know, I think sitting again on the other side of the table it's a bit different. So we are operating through five teams and every team has a different ecosystem and a different challenge, let me put it that way. And I was clear when I was joining and I had the really the honor, the pleasure to take that role and work in the team, it was clear first of all most likely I will need to find successors for many of my direct reports, succession planning and finding the right new leaders. When you are working for a world class treasury, I think this is a challenge. Just think about sports. If you are top notch and you are world leading and world class to keep that, that seat and that role is much harder than getting there. So my answer is y yes, all the greatest talents shall come and join us and help us. Is it every day super easy? No, it's Not.

So how do you inspire then? If you're in that, that seat, you're in the top seat in that company, or then bringing the team along the journey with you, how do you bring those, how do you bring your team with you? As you say, balancing it with, yes, guys, we are this blue chip company, we are this, but we've got to continue to improve because as you say, you're that, you're at the top of the leaderboard, as it were. How do you keep doing that?

I think it's, as always in life, it's about finding the right balance at the moment. And the moment is changing, for sure. So five years ago, we had different challenges than we are having today. And what I truly believe, if we have all the same objective, a kind of North Star, that's super helpful and I think also to really spark the curiosity and also the appetite, you know, how much we can contribute and shape our own future, that that's helpful, you know, to motivate colleagues and help them to grow. So we, I believe truly in empowerment, I believe also in diversity of thoughts. So I really like to have robust and good conversations and then see how we can collectively come to the path forwards and create solutions. And I hope this is also appealing, you know, to team members that they are entrusted with a lot of very important tasks. So when we are a pretty small treasury team, just let, let, let us focus on the core treasury, which is the financing, risk management in house bank colleagues. We are only roughly 30 persons for this big company, so that means every person counts tremendously and we are counting on everyone. It's really about, you know, are you loving, are you passionate about what you're doing? Then you have a lot of freedom, you have a lot of trust. You are having the opportunity to really leave your mark every day. Colleagues are taking tremendous, impactful decisions.

I'm not, I don't want to dwell on pandemic and things. You know, you've been through it, we've all been through it and things. We started the, our show five years ago, just over. And it's pre pandemic, went through it and everything else. But I'm now, you know, I've just returned from San Diego talking to the massive audience about the new world of work. Hybrid remote working, how to get the balance right. It was amazing with Leanne and Joel Campbell and we were all on stage with you guys. How do you see this new world of work and, you know, balancing it? As you say, you've got 30 individuals. How do you, are you Back in the office, what was the ethos going forward?

I would say when the pandemic hit, hit the world, we had the privilege that we were very well equipped. So for us we were able to work from home immediately. As we really work as a team, everybody knows what needs to be done, everybody is loving the role, has also a business acumen and is happy to take over responsibility. We were really working very seamlessly throughout the pandemic and I always had trust and faith in every individual team member that they will bring their best self to work, be it at home or be it at the office. We were very flexible as an employer, whether you wanted to be in the office or not. And this is still true today. And what you see with the treasury colleagues is they like to come to the office. We are right now located in the tallest building in Switzerland. So this is the 40th floor of our building too.

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It's lovely, it's modern, it's an activity based working environment and we are very close together on one floor. All the five teams, except for those colleagues who work different locations like in the U.S. so it's, it's really, you know, there is buzz, there is a lot of exchange, there's a lot of creativity, support and co creation happening. I think we learned a lot throughout the pandemic that we can rely on each other. Was everything rosy for sure. Not. We also needed to adjust ourselves, you know, how to out to colleagues. You can't have that easy face to face coffee conversation just around the corner. But I think, you know, we were equipped and we were able to, to keep close connections and really bring our tasks in for Roche and support the business. So that, that was fantastic and I owe my team a very big thank you and I'm very grateful for that.

And you know, we're not at the end of the show, but where, where do you see or if you're invited. I'm sure you get invites every day. I'm starting to get them. It's quite weird to go to conferences to speak about the latest issues. I was just talking to someone yesterday about how at this US conference there have been all the things about AI, about then RFPs and all the different things and they said look, this is all very, well, it's all very concrete and things like that and yeah, developing and all these different things. What are you seeing as the issues coming down the line for treasurers? What are you thinking? Right. This is because I know that you're very, you've got a passion for innovation, you really want to change things and embrace AI. That's obviously one topic we can go into just briefly, but you know, what are you seeing as the things that treasury needs to embrace or the challenges?

So I think there are different elements to it and maybe allow me to elaborate a bit about the co creation also with banks and how I see this evolving forward. Of course, in the past, if you had a very good relationship with a single banker, you know you can open to every service and what you need in the bank. That has changed over the decades, that's clear. You have committees, you have governance procedures and what have you. And with everything what's happening right now with the future of money, I see tremendous opportunities. How corporates and banks can shape the financial market infrastructure of the future together. I'm referring to this element of a different digital form of money in the future. I see tremendous advantages there if we would be able to shape an infrastructure that would allow for everybody to participate and it could be programmable, it could be easily interoperable and could be on chain even. So you can merge it with business models running on distributed ledger technology that would be fantastic. Co creation across legal entities, across companies boundaries and even across industries are needed and much more powerful just thinking and tying it back to the pandemic. So obviously the world was only able to really give the right response in coming together and really working across country boundaries, you know, across companies, across governance and what have you. So I think the challenges we are facing and if we want to bring really value to societies, there is a call for really teaming up and not only teaming up within a specific company when it comes to AI. Yes, I hear everybody is talking about it. I remember vividly the days where all the banks wanted to predict how FX markets are moving forward and how the equity market would move forward. So always be in the right spot and in the right position. Eventually, you know, those AI tools will help us to forecast liquidity better. I think the power of that technology, at least for Roche, lies within the development for drugs. Finding the right targets, the right biomarkers and really come up with innovative medicines for Treasury. AI for sure can be helpful helping us to decide in our day to day management as well for how long and how much in which currency you should invest, for instance, you know, so really helping, you know, to bring the entire universe of opportunities into one box and then be much quicker and support the individual treasury managers to take a decision. So I think that there's so much out there I just, you know, elaborating on two of those opportunities.

And I want to go back to one of those, you know, with the, this finance new financing ecosystem and digital currencies. I'm not professing to be the biggest expert, but I certainly have an interest because I do it all the time. But then I've also seen that there's this dichotomy between or this challenge with you. You're saying digital currencies and getting closer to that and everything else. But then there's also this, well, hang on. Centralized governments are saying well we can have control over this, we can have an input to this. And actually, you know, people say well hang on, that's not fair. You know, why are you doing this? And things. How are you seeing that sort of balance if you like. I know it's a quite a high level discussion and you know, maybe that's not for the, that could be an entire show in itself. But what are you thinking?

Well, I think all those conversations helped me to dig much more deeper into the history of money and how we operate today. And in fact all the banks are issuing money these days. So when you hold a deposit with any of your banks bank, it's an obligation from that bank to pay you back. It's not central bank money. Right. So the only central bank money you are having is the cash in paper, in coins that you hold in your hand. And I think as much as the industry is embracing new technologies and opportunities, I also think that central banks and banks themselves are in the process on reflecting and reshaping their profile and whether their scope of engagement is still doing justice to where the industry and the citizens are moving to. So I think there needs to also a balance. If so, if the industry and the population and everybody is embracing technology, enjoying additional features that make your life easier and better, why not Also banks and central banks should embark there and revisit what they are doing and how they do it. It. It's not an easy conversation but I think, you know, everybody can step up here for the greater good for being financial more inclusive. There is a lot of unbanked peoples on this, on the slope first of all. And then there is still a lot of trouble within all those payment and clearing systems if you want to send amounts just across the globe, easily and quickly and at low cost. So I think it's a time right now to come together and find a good solution for that. Be it central bank digital money or be it banks who bring something to the table that is interoperable, I would be open to both. I have to say there are pros and cons for Treasuries. When you look at CBDCs, most likely you can rid of all this intra company trading limits with banks or the credit limit piece, how we manage our banks, things would look tremendously different. But you know, I think we would also tremendously benefit if we can really bring the business process together on the same system and ecosystem as the financial flows. Right now when you think about supply chains and sales and what have you, usually they run in totally different systems and detached from the financial flow with the currencies. And I think there are big opportunities to bring this together.

We will be putting your LinkedIn profile in, in the show notes as we do each and every week so that people can and I know that all, you know, people would be lucky to be connected with you, to be great. But we also then wrap up each week's show as we have done for nearly 300 times with some of the top tips, you know. So our listeners are listening today and they're going, right, I'm in the early stages of my career. I want to follow Brissette into sort of a similar career path path. What advice is she going to give me? What are the things I should be thinking about and later on maybe other advice for other treasurers. What are the takeaways, if you like, that you might give to people listening today as we wrap up the show that you know, they're, you know, in their notebook they should be thinking, right, I should do that. I should do do these two or three things, what the things you would give to the listeners today.

Britta I think for somebody early in career it is all about curiosity that served me very well, I have to say, really follow your passion and there is a model. So when you find something, what you get paid for, what you love, what you're good at and that the society, the people on this planet needs when those four cycles overlap. This is a sweet spot. You can call it purpose, you can call it, you know, your hobby that you get paid for. So if you find that I think this is exactly where you want to operate and then you will have no problem you to invest time, do your hard work, embrace the responsibility that is coming along with this and take also entrepreneurial decisions. This would be my advice to early in careers and because the opportunities for early in career colleagues are so tremendous. You know, my world when I started 30 years ago was much smaller. There were much less opportunities just given my background, given the opportunities that my parents were able to provide me and Support me financially. I think if you thrive in early in career to have it all at the same time, you are not set up for success. So I think really understanding your own priorities and not trying to get an opportunity that is perfect, just try it out, get things done, learn about yourself and then take it step by step. I think this would be my advice to all those finance enthusiast and treasury enthusiast early in career. When it comes to my dear fellow peer treasurers, I think it's much harder, Mike. It's really hard because I truly believe a Treasury function needs really to be tailored and embrace the individual business in that company and that can look tremendously different depending what your business model is, what the life cycle of your company is. So where you are on a maturity level with your business. Having said this, I think being very open and maybe this is also a good reminder to myself as I speak. So if you have been around for a pretty long time and you think you have seen it all, staying onto your listening skills and your eagerness to learn from different perspectives, being very open and also to re challenge some of your approaches that have been successful in the past, I think this is key to success still. Because most likely what you got you there, where you are today will not be that what will keep you there and will hold you successful for the next future.

I'm scribbling notes because I love this. So if you're early in your career, be curious, be entrepreneurial, grab the opportunities, don't rush them, but be grab those opportunities. As you say, if you're a more experienced treasurer, then be open to those new ideas and perspectives because the world is evolving and if you don't evolve with it, it's going to leave you behind. Would that be a good summary?

Absolutely.

There you go.

Thank you.

I've done this before and you've been a brilliant guest. Thank you very much. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. I know it's going to explode for you. So yeah, be careful, there'll be lots of people wanting to connect. But anyway, lovely to talk to you today and thank you for your time.

Thank you so much for having me, Mike. It was my pleasure. It was a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much.

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