BB2 Week 3 CV & Resume Advice

When should we kick off? So Katie, just before. So we're gonna, you're gonna go through the, your top tips list sort of thing. Is that one of the things or stuff?

Yeah, yeah. I just. Obviously everybody's received the information we sent through. So it gives you, as we spoke about last week, it kind of gives you a bit of an idea around if you have got a cv, how best to improve it. If you haven't got a cv, then really you should have one and how to kind of create one. I think it's probably important to say here that there are lots, a lot of people who have got various different opinions and ideas around what a perfect CV should look like and what the content should be. I think it's important to say that what we're sort of the advice that we're giving and we're quite happy to give either on this call or off offline, is very much based on, well, Mike's 22 years within the recruitment field, my experience both in house and agency side, and then obviously Ara's experience as well from working within the business and coming across people on a day to day basis. Very much. We wouldn't be offended if you don't take the advice. But as we said, it's very much around us being able to guide you as best as we can based on our experience. But I think it's important. Your CV should really tell a very logical story about yourself. So it's still important to keep it true to you and something that you feel very comfortable with and talking through. So I think just a kind of quick thing is that on average these days there's a lot of statistics that go around, around how long recruiters such as ourselves, but also hiring managers look at your CV. On average now it's between 5 and 7 seconds. Now when you think about that, it's hardly anything. So it's important first off to ensure that your CV is logical, it's readable, it's very simple and easy on the eye for somebody to read it when it lands on their desk. One of the things that Mike and I have been talking about recently is an article that came out about sort of buzzwords, what recruiters absolutely sort of detest these days, the kind of lingo that goes on CVs. And an article was done where they spoke to over 550 recruiters across really appealing industry. Basically, yeah, around they were looking at about 4,000 CVs. And of those, what are the kind of words that kind of turn them off? Even sort of looking through somebody's cv, one of. Well, the sixth position was passionate and I think probably throughout everybody's career somebody has put passionate on there. I know I have at some stage. And I think what they were saying was that actually you couldn't really quantify what you're passionate about. If you say you're passionate about treasury, how do you that within words? The next one that came up was Best, which was the top one I'm best at. The recruiters felt it indicated a strong ego and a sense of self importance and then it was followed closely by motivated, dedicated and proven. And what the article was saying was it's kind of. It's constant. Everybody puts that on there. It doesn't sort of stand you out from anyone these days. You know, there's a thesaurus and people have suggested that perhaps you look at things like that. So it could be that you get a buzz from working on something or you get a buzz from, you know, being a treasurer within, you know, X industry. You get energized by, you have a zeal for. So it's just keeping in mind the kind of. It's keeping your CV as a live document. So even if you're in a position and you're quite happy there and you're not looking to leave, it's always good just to sense, check your CV and make sure that you're not falling into the trap, that actually when you do need to move roles, you're not going to be disregarded from the word go because of some of the words that you put in. So when we kind of go through your CV and kind of how it's positioned, first of all, it's around the title of your cv. A lot of people will save their CV under the title cv. It's very outdated and you know, if you save your CV just under your name, if it lands in somebody's inbox, it's pretty clear that it's going to be your cv. So that's kind of the first thing. There's a lot of questions around how long should a CV be? If you Google people say it should just be two pages. As I said at the beginning, it has to be a logical story about you. So long as it's logical and it's straightforward, really. If it's over three pages, it's not a problem, but just make sure that you're keeping it very relevant and you're focusing on achievements, which I'll move on to in a bit.

Katie, sorry to just jump in, but just for the people listening all of Katie, what Katie's saying, we will have sent to you, but also some people have just joined us recently. We can. We'll resend out to the entire group. We've got all the people that are attending today, so she's, you know, expanding on all of the points in there, so you'll get more, so feel free to take notes. But we will have bullet points there as well after the meeting, so we can send that out to everybody. But carry on. Katie, off to you.

So, again, there's always a discussion around your personal details and what personal details should go on and what personal details should be kept off. So we're talking about having your photo, having your date of birth, having your marital status, basically. Again, a CV should make the reader single you out based on your skills and your experience. It shouldn't be based on anything to do with how old you are or what you look like. And so, you know, in various different countries, you know, you want to avoid anything that could indirectly show discrimination or allow somebody to, as I said, indirectly choose you for the wrong reasons. When you are based, I don't know, sort of scanning across. When you're based in France and in Switzerland, it's common practice for them to. For the hiring managers to want to see your age or marital status and a photo. That's just common practice in those two countries. But generally speaking, because of the discrimination acts across the world, you really don't feel that you have to. But it's just common practice in those two countries, you to do that. References. A lot of people always put references on the bottom of their cv. It's really, again, not something that's mandatory. It's not needed. If you did need extra space on the cv, this is one of the areas to sort of take off so that you've got a bit more space on your cv. Again, it's common practice, and Miconera will confirm this, that generally speaking, if somebody offers you a job, they will always take references, they'll always ask you to provide references. I think one of the other things is, and I have seen this more so in house than I did than I have done when I've been in agency, but if you put references on the bottom of your cv, we live in a world where it's a very small world when it comes to treasury professionals, and even though there's a lot of you, there's a lot of networking going on and therefore people know each other. What can happen is if you put a referee on there, somebody may the hiring manager May look and go, oh, yeah, I know Bob from blah blah blah, he's a really good mate of mine. What I'm going to do is I'm just going to have a chat with him to get a bit of insight into Carol, to see actually what she's like before I interview and they'll do that off the record. But actually I have seen and I've witnessed and I've been on the back of conversations where I've had line managers that have done that and subsequently the person, the candidate, has then been approached by their current company and said, look, we hear you're looking what's going on. So to avoid the possibility of doing that, keep it off your CV is what we would suggest email addresses.

So I just. We've got a question about that, which. From Jonathan, which you probably. He's just said about adding a sentence. The effect that references available on request. It's just like the bit at the top, you know, it's a CV and you know that people require and different companies have different reference policies. So I wouldn't even bother because it's just. You're going to take references anyway, that. That standard. An actual fact. Sometimes it won't even be done by the employer. I was asked by a client, oh, have you got references on this person? I went, no. Oh, well, why not? I said, well, because you've got a referencing agency that you're going to use. And they said, oh, yeah, we are. I said, well, so. And also they said, oh, have you got a copy of their right to work? We asked to people confirm they've got a right to work, but I said it would be pointless, me every time taking a photo of their passport, because all we do is then throw it in the bin or scan it in, because they say, oh, no, I need to see one within the past three months. So, you know, it might take six months, might take a year. So it was similar to references. So I think that's, you know, criticism. It's more. I wouldn't bother, you know, just. You just take out space. So, yeah, sorry, Katie, come on.

And then email addresses, make them professional. Yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

That was.

Make sure it's professional. Again, seeing lots of variations of this, but. But what we see is boring. Your first name, your last name@gmail.com, that's perfect for a CV. Again.

I love martinis. Doesn't work.

Yeah, you're opening yourself up to be discriminated against. And also one thing to Note is that 68% of employers will look at LinkedIn and Facebook, you know, is that 68% of employers will look at LinkedIn and Facebook, you know, as part of the hiring process, they will do that. The next thing to suggest, and Mike is quite passionate about this, if you've been on our website, is around providing a CV summary rather than a personal statement. Again, we're going into the trap of being passionate and motivated and things like that as part of the hiring process, they will do that. The next thing to suggest that a CV summary should really include information that's relevant to the role that you're applying for. So if you've got a job description in front of you, it's around actually look at it from a client's perspective. What are the major areas that are outlined in this role that are needed and what can you deliver based on that and the business that you're going for and that forms your CV summary? A personal statement is just quite fluffy and it doesn't really do anything or set you apart from anybody else. If you look at the 5 to 7 second rule, what they want to see is that you stand out from another treasurer or treasury manager based on that CV summary. So really have a think about that cv. Again, this may seem obvious to people, but trust me and I speak for Mike and Ara, we've seen this several times. Your CV should be in chronological order, so your most recent role first. And working backwards, so many times seen jumbled up things we've seen. You know, the first job role that you, that somebody's had outside of university, but they've had like 15 years experience. Again, the five to seven second rule. And also you need to make it clear for the reader and that just doesn't happen if you've got it back to front and again, standard, which is another thing that raises quite a lot of questions is around having no gaps on your cv. So you know, if you had time out to raise a family or you had time out to go on to new ventures, or just test the water in another area, make sure that you've captured that on your cv. There should be no gaps on your CV at all. If there's gaps on your cv, it automatically shouts alarm bells. Why is there a gap? Or that you've captured that on your cv, there should be no gaps on your CV at all. If there's gaps on your CV trying to hide, et cetera, et cetera. So it's better to actually know what you've been doing in the group. Prior to this, we had somebody that asked you know, they had some time out and started up their own fashion business, which wasn't at all relevant to treasury. But actually starting up your own tv, it automatically shouts alarm bells. Why is there a gap what they business. There's a lot of crossover skill sets that work and can be seen within Treasury. And I think these days, if somebody's been made redundant, it's not a black mark. It becomes part of the norm rather than a unique thing. And actually people would prefer to see people that have actively been working on different things to keep their mind active, to keep them in sort of up to date with the market, than just having a complete blank. So don't think about sort of leaving off any experience. I don't know, Mike and Ava, if you want to add anything there.

Yeah, one of just. I'll get Ava in a moment. Pull out for perhaps more focused on the more junior. There was a very relevant question from. And in fact it's about relevance. Masha, she's saying, how many years should you go back with? 20 years plus how far back is relevant? I think it actually comes down to the last word relevant. It depends on how much is relevant to a job you're applying for. And I think that's how you then reconstruct a cv, because we've talked about it being a living, breathing document. It's not just a static thing, it's a phone book. It stays there, boom, that's it. When you're applying for one role, say you're treasurer that has a particular skill set in biotech and chemicals, you're going to want to bring out some of those skills. Or say you're a treasurer that's done three startups or a treasurer that's worked for two private equity firms. Those are the things you're going to want to bring out to the fore. And then it depends, then going back through your cv, you might change it, you might cut bits out and things like that. So with 20 plus years. Yeah, you might go back to. I saw a CV for a guy earlier who was doing a podcast with. And you know, about 10, 15 years ago, then it becomes much more work for this company. These were the three positions I had, you know, because they're not particularly relevant and it was 20 years ago, but, you know, there were a couple of bits further back where he was working for a company that. And, you know, about 10, 15 years ago, then it becomes much more work for this company. These were the three positions I had, you know, because they're not particularly relevant. And it was 20 years ago. But, you know, there were a couple of bits further back where he was working for a company that if he was applying for certain roles, I said, oh, that might be interesting. You've already worked in that sector a couple of times, so I think that would be, you know, one of the key things. And then there was also, before it scrolls off the page, still look at it. Carol mentioned, are there certain skills or qualification if he was providing for certain roles, I said, oh, that might be interesting, you've already worked in that sector a couple of times, so I think that would be, you know, one of the key things. And then there was also, before it scrolls off the page, we still look at it. Carol mentioned, are there certain skills or qualifications that if they aren't on the resume of a treasurer, would result in that resume be immediately dismissions? That if they aren't on the resume of a treasurer, would result in that resume be immediately dismissed? If so, what again, I think it's going to depend on the job you're applying for. You know, if someone says if so what? Again, I think it's going to depend on the job you're applying for. You know, if someone says it must have. You must have CTP in the US or a Treasury qualification, AMCT uk. Sometimes in Europe you've got some of the atel are doing one, a few others if they requisite, that's going to be on there. Again, it's going to. You're going to tailor your CV according to a situation. It's not just static and everything else. So I think that varies. Ava, you know, for the UK market.

Maybe more, what would you say in terms of qualifications? I'd say in the UK market, especially at the sort of junior to mid level. What I've noticed recently is that roles that are coming out, it is fairly critical now that they expect candidates to either be studying towards their actual sort of already qualified and that is sort of one of the main criteria when they are looking for candidates to join the companies. So speaking to a few candidates recently, sort of a lot of people will sort of be in the in between recently due to Covid due to this horrible market, that's not been the most positive recently. But I think if you've got that gap from sort of say October last year, where you left a contract role, trying to find a new role, if you can show that you've done something positive to forward your career by doing AMCT or sawing some type of studies, saying you've done a lot of networking, even Saying you've taken part in a bounce back program, I think that would show that you're a proactive individual. That would then step you in front of other people applying for roles.

I think I also want to totally steal Ashish's word. I'm going to have that now about relevance. I think that's one of the key things is, is it relevant? And that's what's got to be on there. You know, if you've spent six months doing your allotment, I don't care, you know, if you've been doing this, it's not relevant to a job application for a role within Treasury. I mean, Katie, with yourself, we've got then and again it comes down to Simha, she, we got there. So he's asked how much elapsed time between roles is considered a gap. And he said, you know, sometimes a couple of months now, I mean, I think it's a different world. You know, post Covid, I think, you know, six months is normal. There was before it was like that, you know, that was not the normal and now it is. I mean, a year's a bit long, but I think coming out of this as well, you know, if someone had a, you know, year out and just said, actually I went into it, I spoke to another guy and another candidate and they said, well, I just, I just lost my job just as Covid started. Well, they were a couple of months before, they're quite senior. They'd been eight, nine months. And I'm like, why is that a bother? You know, because it's nine months. It was three months of this. Starting to look at the retraining boom. Covid comes in, markets closed and then you've got probably three months recovery, at least that. So if they've had most of this year out, who's to judge? I mean, Katie, what would, what would you say?

I agree, I think, I think provided, you know, you can talk through that, I don't think it's a problem. I think, you know, as Mike said, after this year, this year is especially tough. You know, I had a candidate who accepted a position in January, was due to start in March, lockdown came, it was pulled off of the table completely. And since then he's just been looking within the market and, you know, we know that the market isn't as buoyant as it, as it was. And as Mike said, everybody's in recovery period. That isn't going to come as a surprise to people hiring at all. I think my prediction will be that a lot of people will suddenly, from September onwards go, right, I need somebody, I need somebody now. And actually, you know, the people that have been out of work are probably going to be ideal because they can start a lot quicker than other. But this year, I just, I think, you know, it isn't an issue at all.

Yeah, so we interrupted you, though. You're in your flow. What next?

So that it actually touches on to the next point around, you know, how much do you put on your cv? And as we said, you know, it has to be relevant. Standard procedure tends to be the. The 10 to 15 years experience or the 5 to 6 most current positions. And then, as Mike said, you know, you expand on those a lot more, but then, you know, you just write down what your other experience was behind that. That then leads on to bullet points. Again, seeing very many CVs that have just been paragraph after paragraph. And again, it just isn't easy for a reader. I have not looked at people before when I've been in house, when I've just been confronted with a long essay. It just. You just. It just doesn't work. Your bullet points, you know, you need to have bullet points. You need to have about six achievements for each. It isn't an issue at all.

Yeah, so we interrupted you on average.

And when we say achievements, this isn't job duties, so it isn't regurgitating your job description. We all know that when you, you know, even from treasury analyst level all the way through, you guys come with a certain toolkit of experience, otherwise you wouldn't be doing the job role that you're doing. So it's a given that you have a certain skill set and you have a certain level of experience. What's going to stand you out from the next person who's in the same job role as you is actually what you've done to add value to that business. As Mike said previously, it's around. What's the paracetamol?

Yes. Basically, if you're applying for a role, you. We, you know, I've written about this in the past, you've got to be their paracetamol. So look at someone's headaches, you know, And a practical example, again, facts of treasurer I've spoken to a number of times. You know, we were looking at a job that he was going to apply for. We deep dove into the job and I said, look, why haven't they promoted the Senior Treasury Manager, Assistant Treasurer, to be the treasurer? What's the reason? And we sort of. We just made some assumptions. The Fact that he probably only had two or three years in that role and he was still two or three years away from the number one job. He hadn't managed too many staff, you know, it was a big team, so he probably was going to struggle. So I said, so when you go to them, the key things as Katie's just put there, and she said about six bullet points, there's a reason called bullet points, old publishing and stuff like that. Six bullets in a gun, that's what it used to be. So maximum of six. If you can get across what you are and who you are, what your top three or four achievements are in three or four achievements, maybe a description of some of the other things you did, but not at too much length, then do it. And that's what we did with this guy. And he brought it to life, didn't he? And we talked about it and it was like how he managed big teams, how he'd done this, how he implemented a Treasury system and immediately he got through from he'd done over 100 applications to suddenly he got through to interview, he got to final round interview, didn't quite get there. But you know we're going to keep going with him. And Katie, you saw it again, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I think when we say achievements, it's very much around what did you identify, what did you do, how did you go about doing it? More importantly, what was the result or benefit or outcome or impact or value that this had on the business? Now, it doesn't mean that you had to lead something. It could be you were involved in something that added value to the business. It needs to be something that's tangible or was a noticeable difference and it contributed to the benefits of the organisation as a whole. So that's what's going to stand you out from somebody else. And it's. So this bit is probably the most important, I would say, on a cv, to get right, because it is the thing that's going to stand you out from somebody else. All too often it's so easy to fall into the trap of just downloading duties your day to day. No one cares what you do. Well, obviously they care what you do on a day to day, but they would expect that. That's an expectation that they have, that you would do the day to day duties of whatever your job title is. It's what. What else do you do above and beyond that that's going to make the difference because then they can identify it to actually the pain and the challenge that they have. And you're the person that can solve that for them.

Just to address that, sorry, just again is one of the great things Carol, you know, it's great. We've got some really good questions this week. Thank you very much everyone. Carol's just jumped in with her resumes about problems, actions and things like that. Is it okay? Some of the duties, just as Katie's right there, do like internal controls, documentation, you drive cash flow without giving away the store. I said it's okay but just don't describe the store, don't give away everything. Just internal control. You know, internal controls. This like mini segments like bullet points because people will scan, read, they don't want this. And you know, the other reason to have a CV resume is for hook points or hooks within the interview. People have said, you know, we joked about whether the CVs extinct. Just have a LinkedIn profile. It's not, it's not detailed enough and it doesn't address a specific job. The other thing is you get there, a lot of your treasurers will do this that you, when you're interviewing someone, you'll look at someone's resume and say, oh can you just talk us through your role here? And they'll have made little hook points or notes and that's what it is. You're giving them some hooks upon which oh, you were. So you did documentation just like Carola said. Oh, what level of did you let that, you know, explain it at interview? Because someone will say I don't care about your documentation, I don't care about your internal controls. Oh, I cared about your profitability and how you helped that as a treasurer. Tell us about that please. And that, you know, and then the other, you know, go to your next interview and oh, you did internal controls. We had a fraud here two years ago. How do you do that? Different people, different problem. A CV resume is for hook points or hooks within the interview. People have said, you know, we joked about whether CVs extinct. Just have a LinkedIn profile. It's not, it's not detailed enough and it doesn't address a specific job. The other thing is you get there, a lot of you treasurers will do this, that you, when you're interviewing someone, you'll look at someone's resume, different paracetamol.

Different headaches and as Mike said, it just gives the opening for them to delve a bit deeper and have that free flowing conversation when they interview you. I think somebody mentioned it on email about sort of where do you put qualifications and additional things that you've done like Bounce Back and things like that with qualifications relevant qualifications don't list, you know, again in. I've seen it on specifically CVs within the UK where everybody adds lists.

Can you just talk us through your role here? And they'll have made little hook points or notes and that's what it is. You're giving them some hooks upon which. Oh you were. So you did documentation just like Carola said. Oh, what level of did you let that, you know, explain it at interview? Because someone will say I don't care about your documentation, I don't care about your internal controls.

Every single GCSE they've done, every single class they've taken it probably it just isn't relevant. So the qualifications need to be relevant and again they need to be in chronological order. I think in terms of somebody mentioned where would you put say the Bounce Back program, you can add something else underneath the qualifications that says additional courses or experience and again list the relevant ones underneath there. The other thing that surprises me to some extent but a lot of people don't add this and that's systems. So there's a paragraph that says systems include Microsoft.

Oh, I cared about your profitability and how you helped that as a treasurer. Tell us about that please. And that you know, and then the other, you know, go to your next interview. Oh, you did internal controls. We had a fraud here two years ago. How do you do that? Different people, different problems, different paracetamol, different.

Headaches and as Mike said, it just gives the Agrosoft office. I know that sometimes it's a given but actually it's amazing how many people sometimes don't have. Don't have knowledge of that. Also it's so important as well to list any tms that you've worked with because actually it could be so for example, I have a client that's got a role on who wants somebody that's very system savvy for them to delve a bit deeper and have that free flowing conversation when they interview you. I think somebody mentioned it on email about sort of where do you put qualifications and additional things that you. And they've highlighted certain systems that are of interest to them done like bounce back and things like that with qualifications relevant. So obviously from my perspective I'm going to look at CVs with people that have got their systems that they've worked on listed rather than having to then try and fly them out if they've worked on any system. So make sure that you do add all of your systems Experience as well. Whether it's something that you've done now or done before, it's important to put it down. And generally speaking, I think that's probably the top, the very top line kind of information, as Mike said. For those of you who've received the information, there's a lot that delves into. There's a guide which delves into a lot more detail around each of the areas that I've got qualifications don't list, you know, again in. I've seen it on specifically CVs within the UK where everybody ads lists. Every single GCSE they've done, every single class they've taken kind of pulled out. Also there's some information around sort of it probably it just isn't relevant. So the qualifications need to be relevant and again they need to be sort of phrases and buzzwords that help you to write those achievements. So that for those of you that haven't had that information, we will send that across. But I think it's just one of the other things is make sure you spell check and grammar check.

How many mangers do we read a day instead of managers? Keep going. What else? What's the other ones?

It's very, I mean it sounds very basic, but you would not be surprised. And I think the other thing that I found over the last few weeks has been chronological order. I think in terms of somebody mentioned where would you put say the Bounce Back program? You can add something else on Dean, that I'm recruiting for positions in France and I'm asking for CVs in English to showcase their fluency in English. And again if you are translating underneath the qualifications that says additional courses or experience to a different language. Again, make sure that you've got somebody that you can. And again list the relevant ones underneath there. Take somebody can have a look at it and ensure that there's again no spelling mistakes or grammar, just a general kind of overview. That's another thing for people, you know who have got languages, it's really important to list those. Again where you've got sort of your systems, etc, etc, just put languages and the level. So if you're fluent, if you're intermediate or if you're a beginner, it's really important to have those listed as well.

Well, I think there's a few other bits that you mentioned right at the top of it.

The other thing that surprises me to some extent, but a lot of people don't add this and that's systems. So there's a paragraph that says systems include Microsoft.

No fancy logos, you know, unless they. Sometimes they can add a little bit but still not keen. No fancy fonts. We've seen so many, haven't we with Soft Office.

I know that sometimes it's a given but actually it's amazing how many people.

Like sort of nice super silver looking like really just stop that, you know, make it readable. Think about your audience thing. We're going to come back. Some of the questions we've got on the side here, no mixed colors, just you know, plain black with sometimes maybe some. I've got, you know, one here which is quite nice with a bit of blue in there and stuff. But sometimes we've seen. And it's been literally all the colours of the rainbow and you. You've seen that Avery, with some of the more junior CVs haven't you, where they try and sort of beef it up a bit, don't they? I think with, you know, how many colours can we get in it?

I know, I think sometimes sort of there's different areas and different sort of.

Types sometimes don't have. Don't have knowledge of that. Also it's so important as well to listen any tms that you've worked with because actually it could be so for example, I have a client that's got a role on who wants somebody that's very system savvy.

The roles in which you want to have a creative looking cv. I mean if you're applying for a textiles designer job then yeah, you might want it to look a bit funky. But you guys are sort of not. No, you're very sensible. You're trying to save money. So they just want the black and white of what it is you're doing rather than. I've seen someone put a timeline of sort of what they did in 1975 up until 2018. I don't need to see an actual picture of a timeline, just put it in your 1.

We can't mention who it is, but it's a pyramid. It's a pyramid of his different skills and he's at the center of this pyramid and this is what he gives us and stuff like that. And I can tell you where I can put the pyramid.

And they've highlighted certain systems that are of interest to them. So obviously from my perspective I'm going to look at CVs with people that have got their systems that they've worked on listed rather than having to then try and fly them out if they've worked on any system. So make sure that you do add all of your. I think it's. It's got to. You've got to think about your audience throughout this. And, you know, one of the roles that I had in House was for fashion and, you know, there is an expectation of, as we've talked about, having creativity because you're applying for a creative role. So if you can't do that, then there's an issue. But actually what happens is when the likes of you or I, unless you're an expert at this creativity and Apple and whatever, Photoshop and whatever, what tends to happen is you run into the risk of things becoming a mistake. So when you're hyperlinking, you've got a logo that's supposed to hyperlink you. If your systems experience as well, whether it's something that you've done now or done before, it's important to put it, put it down. And generally speaking, I think that's probably the top, the very top line kind of information. As Mike said, you click on it straight back to the page. So many times I've hyperlinked and it doesn't work. Just be very, very careful. Simple, clean, straightforward is the way to go in your industry. Definitely.

So, just going through a few more of the questions we've got on here. Ajit asked, do you need to include, if you participate in the seminar as a speaker in a roundtable. Roundtable. If you got three or four of you where it's, you know, you're sort of showing your thought leadership. Definitely. You know, if there's 25 of you, yeah, why bother? I think, you know, the fact you might have gone to €15 finance conferences is great for you, but I think only if you've actually moved forward with.

For those of you who've received the information, there's a lot that delves into. There's a guide which delves into a lot more detail around each of the areas that I've kind of pulled out. Also, there's some information around sort of.

You know, you've given some thought leadership piece. If you've actually been an independent speaker, definitely get it on your cv, definitely. You know, because people want to see that, they want to know that you're recognizing your industry and also your presentation skills will be up there. And that means that sort of phrases.

And buzzwords that help you to write those achievements.

Any CFO you're going to be talking to think, actually, that guy, I could put him in front of the board. He's presented seven times to this senior leadership panel. Yeah, brilliant. Away you go sort of thing. And it doesn't also have to be just that point. You don't have to just. If you've done external events, it can also be that you presented, you know, for the past 10, you know, two or three companies, your. The treasury leadership thing to your kickoff meeting. All right. How many were there of you? 50. Oh, no, it's to the entire company of 1700.

So that for those of you that haven't had that information, we will send that across. But I think it's just one of the other things is make sure you spell check and grammar check.

How many mangers do we read a day instead of managers? Keep going. What else? What's the other one? 5,000. I stood at the front of the room. Wow, hang on. That will come on to next week where we're LinkedIn.

It's very. I mean, it sounds very basic, but you would not be.

You can put that also, you know, if it was videoed, you know, and stuff like that. But that one. Katie, you think the same. A Ray, you think the same. Put those. That sort of stuff. What other stuff do you need on there and recommend, would you say? I'll read out the next question.

Maybe show a bit of personality, sort of hobbies that are different.

Yep.

For example, Mike and I know someone who climbed Mount Everest and wondered whether he should put that on his cv. The coolest that you have climbed Mount Everest successfully on your cv. So I think it helps to show a big surprise.

And I think the other thing that I found over the last few weeks.

Has been of personality and that you're not just a treasurer because if you're going to be in the office with them, they're going to be like your second family. You're going to spend a lot of time, they're going to want someone they can bounce off of, someone who's not just a maths whiz.

You've kind of seen that. I'm recruiting for positions in France and I'm asking for CVs in English to showcase.

They've got. Show a bit of personality but don't go over the top, I'd say.

And I was going to bring in that Ian asked as well, do you recommend a key skills section separate from work? I think work experience. I think it depends again on its going to be achievement focused in. It's going to be about. That's what people buy on, you know, your CV is the same as LinkedIn. LinkedIn is an active showcase for you. But before that, your CV is your key to getting an interview fluency in English.

And again, if you are translating into a different language, again, make sure that you've got somebody that you can take, somebody can have a look at it and ensure that there's again, no spelling mistakes or grammar, just a general kind of overview. That's another thing.

It's your convincer, if you like. It's actually. Oh, hang on, as we said, as Katie said right back at the beginning, five to 10 seconds, okay, this person's worthy. It's also not. It's not particularly true that it's five to seven seconds before they reject you.

For people you know who have got languages, it's really important to list those. Again, where you've got sort of your systems, etc, etc, just put.

And that's like, hang on, is this person rejectable? No, they're not rejectable. They're on the read more sort of section. Or I'm going to read more and they might look through. My slight concern when you say about a key skill section is I would expect everyone on this zoom call to have quite a lot of basic treasury.

Skills, languages and the level. So if you're fluent, if you're intermediate or if you're a beginner, it's really important to have those listed as well.

Well, I think there's a few other bits that you mentioned right at the top of it, a certain level. So I would say work experience, you perhaps sort of tried as an amalgam of the two of them. So it's what. What key skills do you have? But it's in your work experience, so you demonstrate it. So we. I implemented this treasury management system. Usually it takes three people to do. I did it with two of us and we achieved under budget, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's an achievement. It's a skills area. It's also work experience you did in a job. So you've brought them all together. So no fancy logos, you know, unless they. Sometimes they can add a little bit, but still not keen. No fancy fonts. We've seen so many, haven't we? With like sort of nice super silver licking. Like really just stop that, you know, make it readable. Think about your audience thing. We're going to come back. Some of the questions we've got on the side here, no mixed colors, you know, it doesn't need to be the longest sentence, you know, and save the company X amount. But you've, you've won them over on all other areas sort of thing. So know that certainly helped.

I think when you are doing the achievements under the bullet point you're pulling out that, you know, as Mike said, you're showcasing your skill set anyway in different areas.

And Ira, just as we wrap up and then we'll get any other questions from you guys. So just unmute yourselves and chuck yourselves in there. So Ira, any other bits? I've just got a couple more points I was going to bring up.

No, I think sort of we've discussed everything. It's been quite a nice session actually, this one, especially with a lot of the questions because I think sort of some of the questions you guys have asked are some things that sort of.

We just, you know, plain black with sometimes maybe some. I've got, you know, one here which is quite nice with a bit of blue in there stuff. But sometimes we've seen. And it's been literally all the colors of the rainbow and you, you've seen that Avery, with some of the more junior CVs, haven't you?

Where they may not have necessarily brought up in the last bounce back session about CVs.

So they try and sort of beef it up a bit, don't they? I think with, you know, how many colours can we get in it?

I know, I think it's good to sort of get everyone's opinion. So any other questions? More than welcome. I think also sometimes sort of there's different areas and different sort of types of roles in which you want to have a creative looking cv. I mean if you're applying for a textiles designer job, then yeah, you might want it to look a bit funky. But you guys are sort of not. No, you're very sensible, you're trying to save money. So they.

Katie also brought it up earlier and I put Starbikes, I think it's still so relevant is. And it sort of crosses over between your CV resume and actually social media and sort of linkage between this and next week with LinkedIn as well.

So.

And it's a practical story. So I was at a drinks party given for the speakers when I was speaking in Chicago and I was talking to this group of interns and they were sort of doing their final year and they did a practice thing with the Treasure Management association of Chicago, tmac. Great guys all round. And they were sort of saying, oh, how powerful do you think it is, how important? I went, guys, it's totally essential. You need to be lock up your Facebook, be careful with your LinkedIn, careful on Instagram and all this.

Just want the black and white of what it is you're doing rather than I've Seen someone put a timeline of sort of what they did in 1975 up until 2018. I don't need to see an actual picture of a timeline, just put it in your 1.

We can't mention who it is, but it's a pyramid. It's a pyramid of his different skills and he's at the center of this stuff. And they were like yeah, okay Mike, blah blah blah. And one of the guys, you know, sort of Josh or whatever his name was, I think it was, and I said Josh, could you grab me a beer or something? And I wasn't being condescending. So goo giving me it went to get me a beer and stuff. I said Josh. And he was saying oh, he's really done it. And he was looking for an internship. And I said how was Tijuana? He's like what do you mean Tijuana? That was last year. How do you know about that? And I was like, I use a very little known thing called Google and used it on my phone and showed him and I just searched his name, done a couple of searches. Pyramid. And this is what he gives us and stuff like that. And I can tell you where I can put the pyramid.

I think it's, it's got to, you've got to think about your audience throughout this. And you know, I, one of the roles that I had in house was for fashion and you know there is an expectation of, as we've talked about, having creativity because you're applying for a creative role. So if you can't.

And he'd been tagged in one of his friends photos and he was there, you know, snorkeling a bottle of beer going look at this, look at this. And he was absolutely terrified. He said I'm applying for jobs with like Procter and Gamble and some of the top companies here in Chicago. And I said yeah. And that appears on your timeline. Just watch out mate. You know, it's just, and I think that's the key thing. I think nowadays if it's in social media, it's public, it's public media. Anyone get hold of it? So you know, and you guys, you know, you know, don't feel too bad by doing a Google search for yourselves. You know, I, that's why I particularly don't have any Facebook because I think, God, I never have a business, I've had a business. Don't say that, do that.

Then there's an issue. But actually what happens is when the likes of you or I, unless you're an expert at this creativity and Apple and whatever. Photoshop and whatever. What tends to happen is you run into the risk.

Any other questions, anyone? No, we're all good. You're all looking forward to LinkedIn week, that's what it is. Katie, they've just gone, oh, Ian's got a question. Yeah, go, Timmerman. I knew you'd have a good one. Go for it.

Just a quick one.

On the.

At risk of things becoming a mistake. So when you're, you know, the.

The automated filtering, what, tracking system and.

Stuff when you're applying for jobs or.

Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned that a lot of the skills are given for the type of role that you had in your past, but wouldn't those systems be looking for those responsibilities that you had to compare to a job description?

Well, they could be. And again, what you might have is your CV is, as I say, basic structure, so you might. If you're going for an ATS or something like that, you might. And for those people that are listening, what's an ats? So when you're applying for a job and they computer scan it, basically they scan through the relevant words and you'll score higher.

If you've got hyperlinking, you've got a logo that's supposed to hyperlink you. If you click on it, straight back to the page. So many times I've hyperlinked and it doesn't work. Just be very, very careful. Simple, clean, straightforward is the way to go.

And they do the same for LinkedIn when they're trying to source you for jobs. What you might want to do is have a paragraph that is sort of, you know, not results, achievement orientated, but, as you say, key skills, but you don't include it. If it's. If your CV resume is going to be read by a human, you probably don't want it there or you want to try and push it away sort of thing. But if it's just going to be scanned automatically, said your ATS as requested. You could even put it in those terms, you know, for your app in your industry.

Definitely.

So, just going through a few more of the questions we've got on here. Ajay asked, do you need to include. If you participate in the seminar as a speaker or in a roundtable. Roundtable. If you got three or four of you where it's, you know, you're sort of showing your thought leadership. Definitely. You know, if there's 25 of you. Yeah, why bother? I think you'll try to see that some of my key skills are this, this, this. I mean, Katie, you were in HR before firsthand.

I think one of the things is I implemented an ATS system when I was in house and it's very, a lot of it is very much around making it easy for, for the in house recruiters. When, you know, it pulls, you're right, it does pull keywords. But most of the time I think.

You know, the fact you might have gone to €15 finance conferences is great for you.

You know, I say this just from the experience I have. Most of the ATS systems will focus when you have a role that comes on and you want to look at the candidate pool that you've got on your ATS system, it tends to be based on job title, local and the key.

But I think only if you've actually moved forward with, you know, given some thought leadership piece, if you've actually been an independent speaker, definitely get it on your cv. Definitely. You know, because people want to see that they, you know, they want to know that you're, you know, recognizing your industry and also your presentation skills will be up there, you know, and that means that, you know, top line things.

Like that rather than necessarily, you know, key skill sets.

Sorry, rather than cash management.

Yeah. And it's. And the thing to have an ATS system in house is purely to be able to move people through the process, be able to do reporting. It's not, it's. It's more of an admin kind of resource rather than something like LinkedIn that all to do with buzzwords and things like that. So what tends to also happen on NATO system when I, when I.

Any CFO you're going to be talking to think actually that guy, I can put him in front of the board, you know, he's presented seven times to this senior leadership panel. Yeah, brilliant. Away you go sort of thing. And it doesn't also have to be just that point. You don't have to just. If you've done external events, it can also be that you presented, you know, for the past 10, you know, one.

It used to be based how you were ranked, if you like, was based on you getting you going through two different surveys, if you like, which again you would implement your skill sets and you'd be asked to do that. So again, I don't think it's necessary to have that key skill set unless it's specifically asked within the ATS system. But I would be very. Again, most of them are quite standard and basic. As I said, it's more to do with admin control rather than anything else.

Yeah, well, what we do. We just got one question I think, which is worthy of answering, actually, before. What advice would you give to someone that's not qualified in treasury is a qualified accountant, where it's mainly in treasury accounting for Tracy rather than a normal treasury role for their cv. And Tracey, feel free to unmute yourself and join in. So, just to qualify the question is this two or three companies, the treasury leadership thing, to your kickoff meeting. All right. How many were there of you? 50. Oh, no, it's to the entire company of 1700, 5000. I stood at the front of the room. Wow, hang on. That will come on to next week where we're in LinkedIn, where you can put that also, you know, if it was videoed, you know, and stuff like that. But you know, that one. And Katie, you think the same. A Ray, you think the same. Put those, that sort of stuff. What other stuff do you need on there and recommend, would you say? I'll read our next question.

Maybe show a bit of personality, sort of hobbies.

That are different when you're asking. So we've got another couple of questions. Great. What advice would you give to someone is when you're sort of looking at treasury rolls, do you mean? Or what do you mean?

Yeah. Looking at treasury roles, looking at finance treasury roles, what I'm finding at the moment is because I've been working as essentially a Treasury accountant, so, you know, all my role is Treasure, all my accounting role is Treasury.

Yep.

For example, Mike and I know someone who climbed Mount Everest and wondered whether he should put that on his cv.

Yeah.

The coolest thing ever put that. You have climbed Mount Everest successfully on your cv. So I think it helps to show a bit of personality and that you're not just a treasurer because if you're going to be in the office for.

The last maybe four or five years, is treasury related, yet I'm not doing, say, the standard role a treasurist would do, like the hedgings and all the different types of stuff that you guys would do. Yet, you know, I'm kind of being pigeonholed against the normal finance role as well. And, you know, I do enjoy the area of treasury and I do enjoy working in this area, but yet when I go for a Treasury related role, because I don't have say this with.

Them, they're going to be like your second family. You're going to spend a lot of time, so they're going to want someone they can bounce off of, someone who's not just a maths whiz you've kind of got show a bit of personality but don't go over the top. I'd say so.

And I was going to bring in that. Ian asked as well, do you recommend a key skills section separate from work.

Standard treasury skill sets? I'm being overlooked.

So I think what you do is you go for the mid role between it. So you go. They're rare manager role, control treasury controller role. I've just recruited a Treasury controller position for a guy that had been treasury front office qualified accountant. You know, mixture of things. I think what you. I think it is. The problem is it's slightly a buyer's market which you just there. Which is a bit frustrating for a lot of people because there's a greater pressure on. And again I see a lot of the treasurers on this screen, if they recruit someone and they were to recruit someone like yourself for a Treasury front office role, they say, great, okay, how much is that person, their learning curve? And the problem is they say, well, I need a person to know 60 to 80% of the job from day one. And you're like, well, where's their learning curve if they're only going to learn 10 or 20% of the job? But they say, tough. I'm a treasurer, I've got loads on my plate, I need to get this person hitting the ground running and everything else. So I think perhaps what you maybe focus on and there are the roles that come through the treasury controller roles.

That's what I have. It's treasury controller role.

Yeah, exactly. So just trying to find the roles that sort of blend, you know. The problem is at the moment, I think it's a tough market, everything's paused. I think it will improve as we get towards the end of this year. I think also I think work experience, I think it depends again on it's going to be achievement focused in. It's going to be about. That's what people buy on your CV is the same as LinkedIn. LinkedIn is an active showcase for you but before that your CV is your key to getting an interview. I want to come back to the CV stuff but again the people listening, people talk about what held people back in previous years. Treasury bonuses. Usually people will be thinking about getting a bonus towards the end of the year. They'd be held back, they wouldn't be looking. There aren't any bonuses this year. Bonuses are through the floor. So I think there will be a more fluid market come September, October and as the market starts to recover, it's a new kind of weird kind of market. But I saw a really good piece from Noi Group earlier and they were talking about they'd done every bit of the interview, non face to face. And then the final stages, they did across the table coffees with Mars on. But they got to know the person a little bit. So it's your convincer, if you like. It's actually. Oh, hang on. As we said. As Katie said right back, you know, again, a lot of the time, perhaps, Tracy, we can speak after the, you know, today's call. But, you know. And again, we're beginning five, five to ten seconds. Okay, this person's worthy. It's also not. It's not particularly true that five. It's five to seven seconds before they reject you. And that's like, hang on, is this person rejectable? No, they're not rejectable. They're on the week six of our program is about treasury search strategy, so we can talk about that as well. You have to come back for more. There's more of it.

Great, thank you.

And in answer to the question about having an uncommon language like Mandarin and Chinese, is there any point including it on the cv? Yes, yes, I definitely think it is.

Because.

Well, I know from. Again, from the clients that I'm recruiting for at the moment, they're huge, they're multinational and they have presence across the globe. So actually, somebody. You never know when there's going to be a need or a requirement for somebody to speak another language.

Read more sort of section, or I'm going to read more and they might look through. My slight concern when you say about a key skill section is I would expect everyone on this zoom call to have quite a lot of basic treasury skills to a certain level. So I would say work experience. You perhaps sort of tried as an amalgam of the two of them. So it's. What. What key skills do you have?

So I just think if you've got it and you're confident in it and it's at a certain level, you should. You should include it on your cv.

Yeah, I think. Well, again, it's a level of fluency, which I think you need to be quiet. You mentioned it earlier about French versus English. I think if you can properly speak it, then say yes about the spoken. You need to be very clear about it. One of the reasons I say that is because. And you're saying, you know, if you can speak something like that. The funny thing is I actually know clients who would interview now that I could pick up. They don't have jobs. They're not particularly, but they would, you know, they would welcome you and they go, oh, hang on, if that person can speak Mandarin, I'd like, I'd like to talk to them because they will go, they will. They even could manufacture a job for it because it's such a in demand skill sort of thing. Ira, what are your thoughts? You.

I mean, sort of. I think if you can speak another language and you're in a multi, but.

It'S in your work experience so you demonstrate it. So we. I implemented this treasury management system. Usually it takes three people to do. I did it with two of us and we achieved it under budget, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's an achievement, it's a skills area. It's also work experience. You did in a job. So you've brought them all together national company.

It would be really useful for sort of maybe forging relationship with banks that are based.

It doesn't need to be the longest sentence, you know, and save the company X amount but you've. You've won them over on all other areas sort of thing. So, you know, that certainly helps.

I think when you are doing the achievements under the bullet points you're pulling out that, you know, as Mike said.

You'Re in other countries sort of. It shows a bit of respect, especially with the sort of. The Mandarin and sort of Chinese that would show respect over there. So I think definitely show off but just make sure if you're going to say you're fluent, make sure you are fluent and you're not going to turn up and they want you to speak French and you're just talking nonsense. That's a waste of your time and the client's time.

Bit like Joey on Friends, wasn't it when he was talking French.

Just don't do that.

That's my friend. Anyways, just a really good point from Carol. Wouldn't get in the ctp.

You're showcasing your skill set anyway in different areas.

And Ira, just as we wrap up and then we get any other questions from you guys, so just unmute yourselves and chuck yourselves in there. So Ira, any other bits? I've just got a couple more points I was going to bring up.

No, I think sort of we've discussed.

Or the European equivalent help advance Tracey towards what she wants. I think brilliant idea. It would definitely also, and it's a little bit of a cheeky one, but if you start studying amct, everyone assumes you're going to finish it even if you don't, because most people finish it even if they fail a couple of exams, people keep on going through. So it says AMCT currently setting or. And actually I think CTP on a distance basis is easier, better to do because they've got a better long distance training program. I think they worked at it for longer. The only problem with that is it depends on who Tracey would be applying to. Would they want and be bothered about AMCT if she's working in Europe?

Everything. It's been quite a nice session actually, this one, especially with a lot of.

The questions because I'm based in Dublin.

So again, so if you're looking for, you know, it depends on the different clients if you're in the uk. Ava said it before, everyone wants AMCT must have it. If you're working for a US corporate and had ctp, they'd really like it.

I think sort of some of the questions you guys have asked are some things that sort of we.

If you're in Europe, I previously asked the treasurer of Colgate said, oh, do you want the AMCT may not have.

Necessarily brought up in the last bounce back session about CVs so it's good to sort of get everyone's opinion. So any other questions?

More than welcome, I think. Also Katie also brought it up earlier. In it I put Starbikes. I think it's still so relevant is said, what's that? He's like, he didn't care, you know, he said, no, I'm not bothered. It depends on the person. Katie, Ara, what you guys think?

What I would say is it's very dependent as well on the group treasurer, the qualifications that they like. So I know I placed a role recently for a risk manager position, but the group treasurer liked an ACCA qualified candidate. So the group treasurer does sometimes have preference as to what qualification you have, but they're very keen. I think if you show a willingness to want to study further and it.

Sort of crosses over between your CV resume and actually, well, that's something that.

Will go quite far, I think, with.

Interviews and sort of social media and sort of linkage between this and next week with LinkedIn as well. So. And it's a practical story. So I was at a drinks party given for the speakers when I was speaking in Chicago and I was talking to this group of interns and they were sort of doing their final year and they did a practice thing with the Treasury Management association of Chicago tmax great guys all round and they were sort of saying, oh, how powerful do you think it is, how important? Guys, it's totally essential you need to.

Help you get there as well.

I think, I think that also comes down to the research process. You're applying for a job and yes, you might have to apply to an HR person, but you know, at some stage your CV is going to land on the treasurer's desk. Well, look at what the treasurer is qualified in. Have they got an mct? Have they got a ctp? Have they got an mba? Are they acca qualified? Are they an accountant? It's basic stuff. If you're applying for a job, you want the person who's at the top of the tree to like you. You want them to want to interview you. So look at what they've got and then decide from there. We got Jonathan, who's a good wrap up question about ats. Best to assume every position vacancy will be using ats. No, a lot of them don't. But what you can have is, you know, people say, oh, I'm going to write a CV for every, you know, change now. Have a basic fundamental CV done, maybe have some notes to the side that you can copy and paste in and depends on the job. You know, again, you know, when you have a cv, that's for a certain treasurer, as I say, who has, you know, is really accountancy focused. You're an accountant, great. Oh, you're actually act qualified. Oh, we'll actually focus on what you've done with the Lock up your Facebook, be careful with your LinkedIn, careful on Instagram and all this. The association of treasurers. Tailor your approach and then you're going to enhance your success because otherwise you won't get it sort of thing. Katie is your week. So any final words before I tell them that stuff? And they were like, yeah, okay, Mike, blah, blah, blah. And one of the guys, you know, sort of Josh or whatever, the best week will be next week, which is LinkedIn. Anyway, sorry, I didn't say that name was. I think it was. And I said, josh, could you grab me a beer or something? And I wasn't being condescending, so go give me beer. He went to get beer and stuff. I said, josh. And he was saying, oh, he's really done it. And he was looking for an internship. And I said, how was Tijuana? He's like, what do you mean Tijuana? That was last year. How do you know about that? And I was like, I use a very little known thing called Google and used it on my phone and showed him and I just searched his name, done a couple of searches.

I think that's. That's about all. As I said, there's a lot more detail in the guide that we sent through as well.

Yeah. Of him and stuff. And he'd been tagged in one of his friends photos and he was there, you know, and what we'll do is resend that. Well, I've got the attendee list for today, so I'll copy and paste that out, send it out to everyone as well. So. Yeah, cool. Carol, I'm going to answer that later because it's been an hour. You lot have had. Been amazing. Some great questions today. Thank you very much. And make the questions easy next week about LinkedIn. I love it. Great.

All right, everyone, thank you.

Thanks, everyone.

Take care. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Thanks, guys. Bye.

Bye.

Cheers. Snorkeling a bottle of beer, going, look at this, look at this. And he was absolutely terrified. He said, I'm applying for jobs with, like, Procter and Gamble and some of the top companies here in Chicago. I said, yeah. And that appears on your timeline. Just watch out, mate. You know, it's just. And I think that's the key thing, I think nowadays, if it's on social media, it's public. It's public media. Anyone get hold of it? So, you know, and you guys, you know, you know, don't feel too bad by doing a Google search for yourselves. You know, I. That's why I particularly don't have any Facebook, because I think, God, I never have a business. I've had a business. Don't say that. All right, watch it, Hardy. Any other questions, anyone? No, we're all good. You're looking forward to LinkedIn week. That's what it is. Katie, they've just gone, oh, Ian's got a question. Yeah, go, Timmerman. I knew you'd have a good one. Go for it.

Just a quick one on the ats, you know, the. The automated filtering, what tracking system and.

Stuff, when you're applying for jobs or.

Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned that a lot of the skills are given for the type of role that you had in your past. But wouldn't those systems be looking for those responsibilities that you had to compare to a job description?

Well, they could be. And again, what you might have is your CV is, as I say, a basic structure. So you might, if you're going for an ATS or something like that, you might. And for those people that are listening, what's an ats? So when you're applying for a job, they computer scan it, basically, they scan through the relevant words and you'll score higher. If you've got them. And they do the same for LinkedIn when they're trying to source you for jobs. What you might want to do is have a paragraph that is sort of, you know, not results, achievement orientated but as you say, key skills, but you don't include it. If it's, if your CV resume is going to be read by a human, you probably don't want it there or you want to try and push it away. So I think. But if it's just going to be scanned automatically, said your ATS has requested, da, da, da. You could even put it in those terms, you know, for your applicant tracker. See that my, some of my key skills are this, this, this. I mean, Katie, you were in HR before firsthand.

I think one of the things is I implemented an ATS system when I was in house and it's very, a lot of it is very much around making it easy for the in house recruiters. When you know, it pulls, you're right, it does pull keywords. But most of the time, and you know, I say this just from the experience I have, most of the ATS systems will focus when you have a role that comes on and you want to look at the candidate pool that you've got on your ATS system, it tends to be based on job title, location and the key top line, things like that, rather than necessarily, you know, key skill sets.

Sorry, rather than cash management.

Yeah. And the thing to have an ATS system in house is purely to be able to move people through the process, be able to do reporting. It's not, it's more of an admin kind of resource rather than something like LinkedIn. That's all to do with buzzwords and things like that. So what tends to also happen on NATO system? When I implemented one, it used to be based how you were ranked, if you like, was based on you going through two different surveys, if you like, which again you would implement your skill sets and you'd be asked to do that. So again, I don't think it's necessary to have that key skill set unless it's specifically asked within the ATS system. But I would be very. Again, most of them are quite standard and basic. As I said, it's more to do with admin control rather than anything else.

Yeah. What we do, we just got one question I think which is worthy of answering actually before. What advice would you give to someone that's not qualified in treasury is a qualified accountant, works mainly in treasury accounting from Tracy rather than a normal treasury role for their cv. And Tracy, feel free to unmute yourself and join in. So just to qualify, the question is this when you're asking. So we've got another couple of questions, which is great. What advice would you give to someone is when you're sort of looking at treasury roles, do you mean. Or what do you mean?

Yeah, looking at treasury roles, looking at Finance treasury roles. What I'm finding at the moment is because I've been working as essentially a Treasury accountant, so, you know, all my role is treasure, all my accounting role is treasury for the last maybe four or five years is treasury related. Yet I'm not doing, say the standard role a treasurist would do, like the hedgings and all the different types of stuff that you guys would do. Yet, you know, I'm kind of being pigeonholed against the normal finance role as well. And you know, I do enjoy the area of treasury and I do enjoy working in this area, but yet when I go for a Treasury related role, because I don't have, say, the standard treasury skill sets, I'm being overlooked.

So I think what you do is you go for the mid role between it. So you go.

They're rare.

Manager role control or treasury controller role. I've just recruited a Treasury controller position, the guy that had been treasury front office qualified accountant. You know, mixture of things. I think what you. I think it is. The problem is it is slightly a buyer's market which you just there. Which is a bit frustrating for a lot of people because there's a greater pressure on. And again, I see a lot of the treasurers on this screen, if they recruit someone, and they were to recruit someone like yourself for a Treasury front office role, they say, great, okay, how much is that person, their learning curve? And the problem is they say, well, I need a person to know 60 to 80% of the job from day one. And you're like, well, where's their learning curve if they're only going to learn 10 or 20% of the job? But they say I'm tough, I'm a treasurer, I've got loads on my plate, I need to get this person hitting the ground running and everything else. So I think perhaps what you maybe focus on and there are the roles that come through the treasury controller roles.

That's what I have. It's treasury controller role.

Yeah, exactly. So just trying to find the roles that sort of blend, you know. The problem is at the moment, I think it's a tough market, everything's paused. I think it will improve as we get towards the end of this year, I think also I want to come back to the CV stuff. But again, the people listening, people talk about what held people back in previous years. Treasury bonuses. Usually people will be thinking about getting a bonus towards the end of the year. They'd be held back, they wouldn't be looking. There aren't any bonuses this year. Bonuses are through the floor. So I think there will be a more fluid market come September, October. And as the market starts to recover, it's a new kind of weird kind of market. But I saw a really good piece from Noi Group earlier and they were talking about they'd done every bit of the interview, non face to face. And then the final stages, they did across the table, coffees with masks on. But they got to know the person a little bit. So, you know, again, a lot of the time, perhaps, Tracy, we can speak after the, you know, today's call. But, you know, and again, week six of our program is about treasury search strategy. So we talk about, about that as well. You have to come back for more. There's more of it.

Great, thank you.

And in answer to the question about having an uncommon language like Mandarin and Chinese, is there any point including it on the cv? Yes, yes, I definitely think it is. Because, well, I know from, again, from the clients that I'm recruiting for at the moment, they're huge, they're multinational and they have presence across the globe. So actually, somebody. You never know when there's going to be a need or a requirement for somebody to speak another language. So I just think if you've got it and you're confident in it and it's at a certain level, you should, you should include it on your cv.

Yeah, I think. Well, again, it's a level of fluency, which I think you need to be quiet. You mentioned it earlier about French versus English. I think if you can properly speak it, then say yes about the spoken. You need to be very clear about it. One of the reasons I say that is because. And you're saying, you know, if you can speak something like that. The funny thing is I actually know clients that would interview now, I could pick up. They don't have jobs, they're not particularly, but they would, you know, they would welcome you. And they go, oh, hang on, if that person can speak Mandarin, I'd like to talk to them because they will go, they even could manufacture a job for it because it's such a in demand skill sort of thing. Ira, what are your thoughts?

I mean, sort of I think if you can speak another language and you're in a multinational company, it would be really useful for sort of maybe forging relationship with banks that are based in other countries, sort of. It show bit of respect. So especially with the sort of. The Mandarin and sort of Chinese that would show respect over there. So I think definitely show off. But just make sure. If you're going to say you're fluent, make sure you are fluent and you're not going to turn up. And they want you to speak French and you're just talking nonsense. That's a waste of your time and the client's time.

Bit like Joey on Friends, wasn't it, when he was talking French?

Yeah, just don't do that.

That's my French. Anyways, just a really good point from Carol. Wouldn't get in the CTP or the European equivalent. Help advance Tracey towards what she wants, I think. Brilliant idea. It would definitely also, and it's a little bit of a cheeky one, but if you start studying amct, everyone assumes you're going to finish it, even if you don't, because most people finish it, even if they fail a couple of exams people keep on going through. So it says amct, currently studying or. And actually, I think CTP on a distance basis is.